T-Mobile, Xfinity, AT&T now requiring bank accounts to retain auto-pay discount

[student]

I have no issues with merchants complaining but I do have issues with them playing the victim card. Do you think they are victims? It is hard for me to feel sorry for a company making billions in net income in 2022. Since Kroger was mentioned in the thread, I took a look at their net incomes over the years. https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/char ... net-income (trailing 12 months) If I read it correctly, it was flat during 2013-2017. It got a big boost in 2018-2019. Then it dropped back down. In 2017 before the boost, it was under $2 billion. Most recent trailing 12 months is $2.5 billion. (I did not look into whether there were any mergers during this time or taking into the affects of other events.)

Net income would not be relevant in this conversation. Profit margin is the relevant metric, which are anemic for Kroger, as is usual in grocery and other retail businesses.

I disagree with the statement "net income not relevant in this conversation." I understand the profit margin is thin as I have acknowledged in the post. Retailers, such as grocers, of course, would like to use profit margin as the indicator because it fits their narrative. Interestingly, this is a big topic of discussion in Canada and grocers there are making record profit and they keep pointing to profit margin.

[OrangeKiwi]

I have no issues with merchants complaining but I do have issues with them playing the victim card. Do you think they are victims? It is hard for me to feel sorry for a company making billions in net income in 2022. Since Kroger was mentioned in the thread, I took a look at their net incomes over the years. https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/char ... net-income (trailing 12 months) If I read it correctly, it was flat during 2013-2017. It got a big boost in 2018-2019. Then it dropped back down. In 2017 before the boost, it was under $2 billion. Most recent trailing 12 months is $2.5 billion. (I did not look into whether there were any mergers during this time or taking into the affects of other events.)

Net income would not be relevant in this conversation. Profit margin is the relevant metric, which are anemic for Kroger, as is usual in grocery and other retail businesses.

I disagree with the statement "net income not relevant in this conversation." I understand the profit margin is thin as I have acknowledged in the post. Retailers, such as grocers, of course, would like to use profit margin as the indicator because it fits their narrative. Interestingly, this is a big topic of discussion in Canada and grocers there are making record profit and they keep pointing to profit margin.

How low do you expect a viable business’s profit margins to be? 0% is a charity. Continual reductions in a currency’s purchasing power predict that a business with already razor thin profit margins would have to report higher and higher nominal profits. The alternative is to go out of business.

[student]

I have no issues with merchants complaining but I do have issues with them playing the victim card. Do you think they are victims? It is hard for me to feel sorry for a company making billions in net income in 2022. Since Kroger was mentioned in the thread, I took a look at their net incomes over the years. https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/char ... net-income (trailing 12 months) If I read it correctly, it was flat during 2013-2017. It got a big boost in 2018-2019. Then it dropped back down. In 2017 before the boost, it was under $2 billion. Most recent trailing 12 months is $2.5 billion. (I did not look into whether there were any mergers during this time or taking into the affects of other events.)

Net income would not be relevant in this conversation. Profit margin is the relevant metric, which are anemic for Kroger, as is usual in grocery and other retail businesses.

I disagree with the statement "net income not relevant in this conversation." I understand the profit margin is thin as I have acknowledged in the post. Retailers, such as grocers, of course, would like to use profit margin as the indicator because it fits their narrative. Interestingly, this is a big topic of discussion in Canada and grocers there are making record profit and they keep pointing to profit margin.

How low do you expect a viable business’s profit margins to be? 0% is a charity. Continual reductions in a currency’s purchasing power predict that a business with already razor thin profit margins would have to report higher and higher nominal profits. The alternative is to go out of business.

0% margin does not produce 2.5 billions in profit. The fact is they are making profit. What is the point that you are trying to make? My points are simple.
1) All parties (merchants, card issuers, consumers) want a bigger piece of the pie.
2) In particular, merchants are free to advocate for themselves and fight for a bigger piece of the pie or not losing their shares.
3) For the specific issue of merchants, in particular grocers (as it was mentioned that they have thin margin, which is true, as far as I know), vs credit card companies/processors, I do not view grocers as victims.

Do you have issues with any of the above statements?

[OrangeKiwi]

I have no issues with merchants complaining but I do have issues with them playing the victim card. Do you think they are victims? It is hard for me to feel sorry for a company making billions in net income in 2022. Since Kroger was mentioned in the thread, I took a look at their net incomes over the years. https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/char ... net-income (trailing 12 months) If I read it correctly, it was flat during 2013-2017. It got a big boost in 2018-2019. Then it dropped back down. In 2017 before the boost, it was under $2 billion. Most recent trailing 12 months is $2.5 billion. (I did not look into whether there were any mergers during this time or taking into the affects of other events.)

Net income would not be relevant in this conversation. Profit margin is the relevant metric, which are anemic for Kroger, as is usual in grocery and other retail businesses.

I disagree with the statement "net income not relevant in this conversation." I understand the profit margin is thin as I have acknowledged in the post. Retailers, such as grocers, of course, would like to use profit margin as the indicator because it fits their narrative. Interestingly, this is a big topic of discussion in Canada and grocers there are making record profit and they keep pointing to profit margin.

How low do you expect a viable business’s profit margins to be? 0% is a charity. Continual reductions in a currency’s purchasing power predict that a business with already razor thin profit margins would have to report higher and higher nominal profits. The alternative is to go out of business.

0% margin does not produce 2.5 billions in profit. The fact is they are making profit. What is the point that you are trying to make? My points are simple.
1) All parties (merchants, card issuers, consumers) want a bigger piece of the pie.
2) In particular, merchants are free to advocate for themselves and fight for a bigger piece of the pie or not losing their shares.
3) For the specific issue of merchants, in particular grocers (as it was mentioned that they have thin margin, which is true, as far as I know), vs credit card companies/processors, I do not view grocers as victims.

Do you have issues with any of the above statements?

My point is using nominal profits as proof that a business is not a “victim”, which I assume means the business has material negotiating power, is erroneous. A low profit margin indicates that a business has little pricing power, both against its vendors, and its customers.

[student]

Net income would not be relevant in this conversation. Profit margin is the relevant metric, which are anemic for Kroger, as is usual in grocery and other retail businesses.

I disagree with the statement "net income not relevant in this conversation." I understand the profit margin is thin as I have acknowledged in the post. Retailers, such as grocers, of course, would like to use profit margin as the indicator because it fits their narrative. Interestingly, this is a big topic of discussion in Canada and grocers there are making record profit and they keep pointing to profit margin.

How low do you expect a viable business’s profit margins to be? 0% is a charity. Continual reductions in a currency’s purchasing power predict that a business with already razor thin profit margins would have to report higher and higher nominal profits. The alternative is to go out of business.

0% margin does not produce 2.5 billions in profit. The fact is they are making profit. What is the point that you are trying to make? My points are simple.
1) All parties (merchants, card issuers, consumers) want a bigger piece of the pie.
2) In particular, merchants are free to advocate for themselves and fight for a bigger piece of the pie or not losing their shares.
3) For the specific issue of merchants, in particular grocers (as it was mentioned that they have thin margin, which is true, as far as I know), vs credit card companies/processors, I do not view grocers as victims.

Do you have issues with any of the above statements?

My point is using nominal profits as proof that a business is not a “victim”, which I assume means the business has material negotiating power, is erroneous. A low profit margin indicates that a business has little pricing power, both against its vendors, and its customers.

Kroger's net margin curve since 2010 has the same characteristics as the profit curve https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/char ... it-margins If I read it correctly, it was flat during 2013-2017. It got a big boost in 2018-2019. Then it dropped back down. Now it about the same as as 2014. In any case, it is at a point of diminishing return. I think erp is right about derailing the thread. I am moving on.

Edit: Erp's post has been deleted. In any case, thank you for providing your perspective. I am moving on.

[LadyGeek]

I removed an off-topic post. The discussion is getting derailed. Please stay on-topic, which is utilities requiring bank accounts to retain auto-pay discounts.

[saver7007]

[Thread merged into here --admin LadyGeek]

I'm with T-mobile for cell phone service and they are changing policies so that to keep the $5 per line auto-pay discount you have to use either a debit card or linked bank account. Which of these two options is preferable in terms of preventing fraud from occurring and/or fraud protections after the fact? I vaguely remember reading the ACH/EFT network is a closed network and harder to get access to so might be preferable in case they are ever hacked.

[JoMoney]

For a regular individual retail consumer account, you should be protected either way with ACH or a debit card ( Reg E requires protections as long as you report fraud ASAP and wasn't caused by some exceptional negligence on your part.) If it was me, and I already used my debit card for transactions (I don't) then that's what I'd use. It's easier to replace/change a debit card if it's been compromised than change your account numbers... but if the concern was more about third-party fraud than errors or disputes with Tmobile, there's probably more fraudulent transactions on the debit card networks than fraudulent ACH transfers.
The big problem with either, is in the event of a fraudulent or mistaken transaction/error, you're out the cash until you make the dispute, which may cause other bounced transactions or problems paying bills the money was expected to be there for. With fraud or error on a credit card, it's the banks money / credit that's would be disputed, and you wouldn't be out any money during that process.

[revert]

I have had fraud occur on both in the past and noticed no significant difference in resolution. I prefer a debit card because many banks let you apply additional restrictions (eg no international charges, no charges over X dollars, etc) and because getting a new card is slightly less hassle than getting a new checking account number.

[anon_investor]

I'm with T-mobile for cell phone service and they are changing policies so that to keep the $5 per line auto-pay discount you have to use either a debit card or linked bank account. Which of these two options is preferable in terms of preventing fraud from occurring and/or fraud protections after the fact? I vaguely remember reading the ACH/EFT network is a closed network and harder to get access to so might be preferable in case they are ever hacked.

Open a new free online bank account and use that to pay mobile. Keep the balance small so you won't be too inconvenienced if there is fraud.

[student]

Upthread talked about using a checking account dedicated for this to mitigate the risk of linking your bank account. Capital One is offering $350 to open a checking account. https://www.capitalone.com/bank/bonus35 ... 3381850INT In the slickdeal discussion, I saw someone saying ACH from Chase and Charles Schwab, Fidelity and Ally work.

[student]

I'm with T-mobile for cell phone service and they are changing policies so that to keep the $5 per line auto-pay discount you have to use either a debit card or linked bank account. Which of these two options is preferable in terms of preventing fraud from occurring and/or fraud protections after the fact? I vaguely remember reading the ACH/EFT network is a closed network and harder to get access to so might be preferable in case they are ever hacked.

Open a new free online bank account and use that to pay mobile. Keep the balance small so you won't be too inconvenienced if there is fraud.

+1. Capital One is offering $350 to open a checking account. https://www.capitalone.com/bank/bonus35 ... 3381850INT In the slickdeal discussion, I saw someone saying ACH from Chase and Charles Schwab, Fidelity and Ally work for direct deposit.

[LadyGeek]

I merged saver7007's thread into the ongoing discussion.

(Thanks to the member who reported the post and provided a link to this thread.)

[exodusNH]

[As for supermarkets having a thin margin, while it is true, they have been accepting credit cards for a long time. So what has changed?

Cash back rewards. Credit card companies didn’t give the cash back from their profits. Rather, they increased the merchant fees on rewards cards.

Typical merchant fees are around 2.5%. Are you claiming merchant fees were only 0.5% before 2% cash back cards were common? I'm quite certain they were never that low.

The "headline" rate is for qualified purchases. Other cards, including rewards cards, can have higher fees than the number your merchant provider will tell you.

[patrick]

[Thread merged into here --admin LadyGeek]

I'm with T-mobile for cell phone service and they are changing policies so that to keep the $5 per line auto-pay discount you have to use either a debit card or linked bank account. Which of these two options is preferable in terms of preventing fraud from occurring and/or fraud protections after the fact? I vaguely remember reading the ACH/EFT network is a closed network and harder to get access to so might be preferable in case they are ever hacked.

Someone who steals the account/routing numbers used for ACH could use them for online purchases anywhere that accepts payment through ACH, or print fake checks on your account. I've never had that happen, but the one time my debit card number was used fraudulently, it was easy to get the money back. I'd lean toward debit cards simply because it would be possible to use a rewards debit card, though unfortunately they are rarer and tend to be less generous than rewards credit cards.

[saver7007]

Someone who steals the account/routing numbers used for ACH could use them for online purchases anywhere that accepts payment through ACH, or print fake checks on your account. I've never had that happen, but the one time my debit card number was used fraudulently, it was easy to get the money back. I'd lean toward debit cards simply because it would be possible to use a rewards debit card, though unfortunately they are rarer and tend to be less generous than rewards credit cards.

I think you just convinced me the debit card option is preferable even if as others have said fraudulent transactions may be a little more likely to occur. Somebody out there printing and passing bad checks on your account is one type of fraud that can actually get you arrested as I understand it. I don't think that can happen with debit (or credit) card fraud.

[CardinalRule]

Yesterday (September 9) I paid my T-Mobile bill with a credit card, before the bank account autopay occurred, when I received the notice that my bill was available.

So T-Mobile has not yet closed the loophole from what I can tell.

Based on what happened earlier with Verizon, it might just be a matter of time.

Recent WSJ podcast on this topic:

https://www.wsj.com/podcasts/your-money ... f17dd40bb9

[uaeebs86]

Clark Howard was talking this week about how it's probably only a matter of time before they close the loophole. Enjoy it while it lasts.

[Tommy]

Just logged to my T-Mobile account as we have never received this notice to switch to bank account for autopay.
It still shows $20 discount for autopay. Maybe it is not updated yet

[the_wiki]

Now I’ve got even more reason to keep my old grandfathered T-mobile plan without an autopay discount. Can’t lose a discount you don’t get when paying by card.

In reality, I expect this will continue to spread to more companies. We all love our rewards cards, but those costs are paid by the merchant.

[HoosierJim]

Let's say I don't have a debit card and don't what to setup ach due to TMobile's record for being hacked. Can I send them advance payments, Let's say the monthly bill is $60 with ach/debit autopay but $70, without ach/debit autopay, can I pay the current bill and prepay 9 more months? For example, $610 in advance to cover one month at $70, and the remaining 9 payments at $60? Seems like this would save $90 for example. Any way to do this?

[anon_investor]

Now I’ve got even more reason to keep my old grandfathered T-mobile plan without an autopay discount. Can’t lose a discount you don’t get when paying by card.

Yep, we are keeping our grandfathered Sprint plans on T-Mobile, can't lose a discount we don't have. We get 5.25% cash back with the CC we use, that adds up!

[rihardos]

While both debit and credit cards can be vulnerable to fraud, credit cards generally offer stronger fraud protection and more time to dispute unauthorized charges without affecting your immediate access to funds. If you prioritize rewards and are confident in your ability to manage credit responsibly, a rewards credit card can offer additional benefits. However, it's essential to monitor your accounts regularly for any suspicious activity and report any unauthorized transactions promptly, regardless of the type of card you use. Expertise is the cornerstone of any successful healthcare app development company. Given the complexity and sensitivity of healthcare data, it is imperative that developers have a comprehensive understanding of healthcare regulations and standards, such as HIPAA in the United States https://mlsdev.com/blog/healthcare-mobi ... evelopment. They must also be well-versed in the nuances of medical terminology and the intricacies of healthcare workflows. This expertise ensures that the apps they develop are not only technically sound but also compliant with all relevant regulations, safeguarding patient privacy and data security.

[Valarius]

I haven't read through all the posts, and I am sure you maybe considering this, but you could switch mobile companies. Mint Mobile has great prepaid plans, even though T-Mobile just bought them out. However, they don't request your bank account information to create an account. And their discounted specials are still running. Here's a link- https://www.mintmobile.com/

[StewedCarrot]

Let's say I don't have a debit card and don't what to setup ach due to TMobile's record for being hacked. Can I send them advance payments, Let's say the monthly bill is $60 with ach/debit autopay but $70, without ach/debit autopay, can I pay the current bill and prepay 9 more months? For example, $610 in advance to cover one month at $70, and the remaining 9 payments at $60? Seems like this would save $90 for example. Any way to do this?

Setup a checking account with minimal balance at your bank/CU. Make that your automatic payment method. Then login to T-Mo and pay with credit card.

I've been doing this since they transitioned. No issues to date.

[JoMoney]

Let's say I don't have a debit card and don't what to setup ach due to TMobile's record for being hacked. Can I send them advance payments, Let's say the monthly bill is $60 with ach/debit autopay but $70, without ach/debit autopay, can I pay the current bill and prepay 9 more months? For example, $610 in advance to cover one month at $70, and the remaining 9 payments at $60? Seems like this would save $90 for example. Any way to do this?

My reasoning for being unwilling to grant T-mobile authority to ACH Direct Debit my account wouldn't be over concerns about T-mobile being "hacked" (and by "hacked" I assume you mean an unauthorized disclosure of personal information including bank account numbers), and more about I don't trust T-mobile to not abuse that authorization, or make mistakes, and dealing with their customer service to resolve any mistakes in debiting my account could be a horrendous ordeal where I'm temporarily out my money.

I think people have a concern about the risks of someone getting their bank account and routing numbers that's a bit too paranoid... For better or worse, those bank account and routing numbers are available a lot of different ways. For decades people have (and continue to) hand out the account number printed on personal checks, provide it in other ways, as well as it being available in numerous databases printed on mailings and all over the place... but when it gets down to the risk, if someone does an unauthorized debit on your account you're covered - Reg E put's that into law. Most banks will give you a provisional credit immediately on reporting a fraudulent transaction - The problem with granting someone like Tmobile access to debit your account is that would not be considered a fraudulent transaction if you granted them authority to do it (along with waiving a slew of other liabilities they may have in the terms and conditions you have to agree to when allowing them to direct debit your account.)

[student]

The problem with granting someone like Tmobile access to debit your account is that would not be considered a fraudulent transaction if you granted them authority to do it (along with waiving a slew of other liabilities they may have in the terms and conditions you have to agree to when allowing them to direct debit your account.)

Yes. This is the concern.

[R675309]

I don't have an issue with it. I setup a new account which alerts on every transaction over 1 cent. I auto-deposit enough money in there for these monthly expenses. I have a few things that require bank account now. All in total less than $500. Easy enough.