The friendly man on the telephone promised that upon finally making it across the threshold of "select", there would be a select-only special phone number, concierge service, and a personal rep. Also access to private-equity investment. Am I being naïve? Was the friendly man... a tad disingenuous?
Phone number concierge service and personal rep, yes.
When they rolled it out, I believe the PE was to be only for those using their Personal Advisor Service.
Many bogleheads have no interest in PE, so this would not be a reason to choose specifically Vanguard. If you have the income or assets, many brokers and banks will be eager to sell you PE funds.
We don't know how to beat the market on a risk-adjusted basis, and we don't know anyone that does know either |
--Swedroe |
We assume that markets are efficient, that prices are right |
--Fama
nhs76 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 03, 2023 12:26 am
I will never understand the willingness of some of my fellow Bogleheads to put all their life savings in just one basket, i.e. brokerage firm. It seems like a sucker bet. So, yes, I still favor Vanguard as well as Fidelity, Schwab, and TreasuryDirect, as well as a couple of banks and and a couple of credit unions for cash deposits.
So, in your view, brokerage diversification is warranted?
I've always thought so too. Hackers are real and I'd never want to risk all of my assets to a single hacker attack at one brokerage.
It's a zero-sum game. Spreading your assets across N providers multiplies the chance of breach by N. If you think provider A has a substantially lower chance of a breach than average, your best bet is to put all your money there.
A bigger hassle is if you need your brokerage money to cover day-to-day expenses. If so, there's value in a second one so that if something happens -- technical issue on their part -- you don't lose access to all of your funds.
Having investment grade corporate bonds of 5 issuers also gives a much higher probability of encountering a default than picking the highest quality of the 5 issuers and concentrating your money with them. We don't call that 'a zero-sum game', but diversification.
The potential difference I can see with broker unauthorized activity loss is they may specifically say you'll be compensated (Vanguard does) so you might assume that all you'll suffer in the end from a hack is jangled nerves: why increase the probability of jangled nerves by having more accounts? IOW it might reasonably be seen as more like putting $50k in each of 5 FDIC insured banks rather than $250k at one. That's not decreasing your risk of actual loss but increasing your chance of being briefly unsettled when you read that your bank failed and the hassle if any of your bank being taken over by the FDIC.
But, strength of brokers guarantee against hack losses isn't necessarily comparable to the FDIC. And I consider the possibility of security/firm risks I don't know about, not just known scenarios in online security discussions (use this device or app, etc). I wouldn't have just one broker, though I have more at Vanguard than I can afford to lose without compensation so practically I'm not 100% disagreeing with you. My actions say I believe it's safe enough there to have a high concentration of my NW.
Broken Man 1999 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 11, 2023 6:27 pm
As I have written so many times, the complaints posted at Bogleheads.org are anecdotal, and provide no useful information as to the level of service provided.
Maybe not useful to you, but possibly useful to others. The anecdotes provide information about the range of competence that's being exhibited by the company. If we know of examples of gross incompetence, then we know that the company in question has a competence floor somewhere below that.
I have been a Vanguard customer since 2003, and I prefer staying right where I am.
I'm not leaving either. Not having to interact with customer service keeps me away from those kinds of issues.
JackoC wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 10:03 am
The potential difference I can see with broker unauthorized activity loss is they may specifically say you'll be compensated (Vanguard does) so you might assume that all you'll suffer in the end from a hack is jangled nerves: why increase the probability of jangled nerves by having more accounts? IOW it might reasonably be seen as more like putting $50k in each of 5 FDIC insured banks rather than $250k at one.
Not sure jangled nerves are the only consequence. One has to read the fine print (assuming non-lawyers can comprehend it). We have another forum member dealing with a hack situation at a bank, and we don't know yet whether or not they're going to be made whole. The following is the OP from that thread responding to various comments:
vmsx wrote: ↑Sat Jul 15, 2023 11:51 am
>File an FDIC complaint if you have not.
We found that the immediate regulator is the Federal Reserve not the OCC. Utah's DFI punted and said only to work through the Federal Reserve's complaint process.
vmsx wrote: ↑Sat Jul 15, 2023 5:38 pm
>and I don't recall seeing the OP answer the question about whether the financial institution requires arbitration for such issues.
I read did a keyword search and saw no arbitration or similar language in the long service agreement. I don't want to name the bank for now as this may ultimately become a lawsuit and investigation(s) are underway.
JackoC wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 10:03 amThe potential difference I can see with broker unauthorized activity loss is they may specifically say you'll be compensated (Vanguard does) so you might assume that all you'll suffer in the end from a hack is jangled nerves: why increase the probability of jangled nerves by having more accounts? IOW it might reasonably be seen as more like putting $50k in each of 5 FDIC insured banks rather than $250k at one.
Not sure jangled nerves are the only consequence. One has to read the fine print (assuming non-lawyers can comprehend it). We have another forum member dealing with a hack situation at a bank, and we don't know yet whether or not they're going to be made whole. The following is the OP from that thread responding to various comments:
Please re-read what you quoted, I bolded to aid you. I said broker who explicitly says they will compensate you, see Vanguard's policy in link, not bank where you just assume it. Is this an absolute 100% certainty? Nothing is, but we're starting with the probability of a hack of any given person being very small. I'd bet the final outcome in thread you mention is that bank compensating the victim too [edit to add: that was the outcome, an update on that thread says], but it is different if the provider made a specific public commitment to do so. https://investor.vanguard.com/ts/pdf/va ... on%20below.
JackoC wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 10:03 amThe potential difference I can see with broker unauthorized activity loss is they may specifically say you'll be compensated (Vanguard does) so you might assume that all you'll suffer in the end from a hack is jangled nerves: why increase the probability of jangled nerves by having more accounts? IOW it might reasonably be seen as more like putting $50k in each of 5 FDIC insured banks rather than $250k at one.
Not sure jangled nerves are the only consequence. One has to read the fine print (assuming non-lawyers can comprehend it). We have another forum member dealing with a hack situation at a bank, and we don't know yet whether or not they're going to be made whole. The following is the OP from that thread responding to various comments:
Please re-read what you quoted, I bolded to aid you.
I read it correctly the first time.
You mentioned something about banks. In that case, sometimes things don't go as well as people expect.
If you're confident in your interpretation of the legalese, that's great.
nhs76 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 03, 2023 12:26 am
I will never understand the willingness of some of my fellow Bogleheads to put all their life savings in just one basket, i.e. brokerage firm. It seems like a sucker bet. So, yes, I still favor Vanguard as well as Fidelity, Schwab, and TreasuryDirect, as well as a couple of banks and and a couple of credit unions for cash deposits.
If that’s your fear I’d bank with BofA, JPMorgan, Citi or Wells. Those banks are truly too big too fail.
nhs76 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 03, 2023 12:26 am
I will never understand the willingness of some of my fellow Bogleheads to put all their life savings in just one basket, i.e. brokerage firm. It seems like a sucker bet. So, yes, I still favor Vanguard as well as Fidelity, Schwab, and TreasuryDirect, as well as a couple of banks and and a couple of credit unions for cash deposits.
Huh... except for TD, and one credit union account, it's the same with me.
JackoC wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 10:03 amThe potential difference I can see with broker unauthorized activity loss is they may specifically say you'll be compensated (Vanguard does) so you might assume that all you'll suffer in the end from a hack is jangled nerves: why increase the probability of jangled nerves by having more accounts? IOW it might reasonably be seen as more like putting $50k in each of 5 FDIC insured banks rather than $250k at one.
Not sure jangled nerves are the only consequence. One has to read the fine print (assuming non-lawyers can comprehend it). We have another forum member dealing with a hack situation at a bank, and we don't know yet whether or not they're going to be made whole. The following is the OP from that thread responding to various comments:
Please re-read what you quoted, I bolded to aid you.
I read it correctly the first time.
You mentioned something about banks. In that case, sometimes things don't go as well as people expect.
If you're confident in your interpretation of the legalese, that's great.
'Something about banks' you obviously misunderstood. But just to summarize, I *do* diversify with more than one broker (and a number of banks). Whereas the person who I originally responded to (about *brokers*) said essentially that having money at more than one broker just makes it more likely you suffer some kind of hack (their end, your end) at one of them, but you're going to get compensated anyway so why have more than one? I don't entirely buy that, I'd still rather have more than one, but I agree with them the Vanguard gtee is pretty strong. Take a minute and actually read the link I gave. It says you're covered if you do a list of straightforward computer security things. There is no reference to further 'terms and conditions' fine print.
nhs76 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 03, 2023 12:26 am
I will never understand the willingness of some of my fellow Bogleheads to put all their life savings in just one basket, i.e. brokerage firm. It seems like a sucker bet. So, yes, I still favor Vanguard as well as Fidelity, Schwab, and TreasuryDirect, as well as a couple of banks and and a couple of credit unions for cash deposits.
Agree - I have retirement funds in 3 different financial firms - Vanguard by choice, and the other two dictated by an employer. It's smart to have at least 2 different firms, just in case there is some (very unlikely, but still possible) difficulty in accessing funds at one firm. And can be advantageous if fraud ever occurs on one account.
I don't favor Vanguard for their customer service or their 'ease of use' (regardless what I'm trying to do, whether it be with my i401k, brokerage account or online interactions).
The only reason I stay with Vanguard is their low fee structure. That's it.
JackoC wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 8:37 am
'Something about banks' you obviously misunderstood.
No, I understood it correctly.
There is no reference to further 'terms and conditions' fine print.
You may be satisfied with what's printed in that document, but sometimes there are other documents one has executed which specify that it takes precedence over whatever may be written in another document.
I get that you're confident that this is not applicable in your case, and that's fine.
My wife and I have been with Vanguard sine the early 1990's and see no reason not to be today. My work 401K is with another institution, but everything else (outside of our brick and mortar banking) is with Vanguard. I have never not been able to do everything I wanted to do with them. I am savvy enough online that their system is intuitive and is not a roadblock for me. Then again, I mainly am buying shares in my ROTH IRA's and balancing rollover IRA's to meet our AA goals. I set my son up with Vanguard and he is humming right along with them too. I have rolled over 3 401K's to Vanguard for my wife over the years and all of that was seamless/flawless and did most all of them online (outside of the first one). I am not too sure I am overly excited with how Vanguard has thrown their hat into the ring of political issues or other various causes, but if the time comes to move funds around, I know what options are out there.
nhs76 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 03, 2023 12:26 am
I will never understand the willingness of some of my fellow Bogleheads to put all their life savings in just one basket, i.e. brokerage firm. It seems like a sucker bet. So, yes, I still favor Vanguard as well as Fidelity, Schwab, and TreasuryDirect, as well as a couple of banks and and a couple of credit unions for cash deposits.
Agree - I have retirement funds in 3 different financial firms - Vanguard by choice, and the other two dictated by an employer. It's smart to have at least 2 different firms, just in case there is some (very unlikely, but still possible) difficulty in accessing funds at one firm. And can be advantageous if fraud ever occurs on one account.
The more institutions that you utilize, the greater the chance that one of them will have an issue. I favor having one or two banks and one or two brokerages. Or multiple accounts at one bank and one brokerage.
1. The last time I phoned, it was to locate whatever I was looking for on the website. I don't remember when that was, so the website and mobile app must be at least okay.
2. I liked the old look-and-feel of the pages before the improvements. Not to worry; I'll probably be unhappy when the change-after-this comes; the current changes don't interfere with my understanding.
3. Despite the eggs-in-one-basket arguments, I'd like to echo another Boglehead's concern that post mortem, I want my assets in as few places as possible so those who are cleaning up behind me aren't vexed. I'm a borderline case, a frustrated trustee could condemn me to the hot place in a fit of pique.
4. If Vanguard offered banking services, I'd climb aboard. Vanguard tends to stick to its knitting, though. Sometimes it's nice to go into a branch and inwardly grouse about receiving un-faced bills. Kids these days.
twenty characters wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 8:13 pm
4. If Vanguard offered banking services, I'd climb aboard. Vanguard tends to stick to its knitting, though. Sometimes it's nice to go into a branch and inwardly grouse about receiving un-faced bills. Kids these days.
Having issues:
Balances don't seem correct
They pushed change to brokerage account and insessant popup for advisor.
Had a long term insured bond fund seems to have converted to something else.
Can't find facts on funds
Can't research current list of funds without loggin in.
and even then HOW DO I BRING UP LIST OF CURRENT FUNDS TO CHOOSE FROM?
ON Disability so reinvest capital gains and put Dividends into settlement accounts for bills, not sure it getting there.
new website does not seem to do anything consistantly except popup do you want to sign up for advisor ad.
bernieleeds wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 7:07 am
Having issues:
Balances don't seem correct
They pushed change to brokerage account and insessant popup for advisor.
Had a long term insured bond fund seems to have converted to something else.
Can't find facts on funds
Can't research current list of funds without loggin in.
and even then HOW DO I BRING UP LIST OF CURRENT FUNDS TO CHOOSE FROM?
ON Disability so reinvest capital gains and put Dividends into settlement accounts for bills, not sure it getting there.
new website does not seem to do anything consistantly except popup do you want to sign up for advisor ad.
Vanguard has been great so far. The tax reporting, customer service, and trading. I’ve spoken directly with their fixed income desk, legacy planning group, and private equity desk. They’ve offered to connect me with their equity block trading desk as well. Quite a powerful platform, actually, at zero cost.
App keeps getting better. I prefer letting my bank focus on the banking and vanguard focus on the investing.
