Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
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Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
Hello Boglers,
My approximate data is as follows:
RE assets - ~$9mm (no debt)
Equities / Stock - ~$1mm but increasing this and decreasing crypto and no longer investing money in venture funds.
Crypto - $15mm liquid
Venture funds (LP) / SPVs - $10mm
Me: late 30s, tech entrepreneur with past successful businesses that invested in crypto relatively early. i trade algorithmically currently but slowly transitioning to other projects.
Dating a wonderful woman who has less means than me. going on 7 years. she's seen me grow from $1mm net worth to where I am today. contemplating engagement / marriage but having wealth is scaring the possibility of moving forward. scared about the possibility of divorce, communal property, alimony, etc. Thinking about not getting married and cohabitating instead. Looking into lawyers in this area. Also if getting married we'd have to do a prenup - no question. Her approximate net worth is <$100k. She is reliant on me and I support her.
Where I'd appreciate advice:
- Domestic Asset Protection Trusts?
- Spend-thrift Irrevocable Trusts?
- How to find attorneys who deal with HNW clients - where do I look? There has to be something better than Avvo for example for HNW.
- Anything else I should think about?
How can I effectively park a chunk of money outside martial estate in the event of divorce?
Tax Situation: I currently live in a fantastic tax jurisdiction and would move to another state with no state income tax potentially by the end of this year.
Any help in finding or sourcing quality folks who can assist me would be immensely helpful. Everyone I talk to is trying to sell me something but it's hard to decipher what actually works and doesn't.
My approximate data is as follows:
RE assets - ~$9mm (no debt)
Equities / Stock - ~$1mm but increasing this and decreasing crypto and no longer investing money in venture funds.
Crypto - $15mm liquid
Venture funds (LP) / SPVs - $10mm
Me: late 30s, tech entrepreneur with past successful businesses that invested in crypto relatively early. i trade algorithmically currently but slowly transitioning to other projects.
Dating a wonderful woman who has less means than me. going on 7 years. she's seen me grow from $1mm net worth to where I am today. contemplating engagement / marriage but having wealth is scaring the possibility of moving forward. scared about the possibility of divorce, communal property, alimony, etc. Thinking about not getting married and cohabitating instead. Looking into lawyers in this area. Also if getting married we'd have to do a prenup - no question. Her approximate net worth is <$100k. She is reliant on me and I support her.
Where I'd appreciate advice:
- Domestic Asset Protection Trusts?
- Spend-thrift Irrevocable Trusts?
- How to find attorneys who deal with HNW clients - where do I look? There has to be something better than Avvo for example for HNW.
- Anything else I should think about?
How can I effectively park a chunk of money outside martial estate in the event of divorce?
Tax Situation: I currently live in a fantastic tax jurisdiction and would move to another state with no state income tax potentially by the end of this year.
Any help in finding or sourcing quality folks who can assist me would be immensely helpful. Everyone I talk to is trying to sell me something but it's hard to decipher what actually works and doesn't.
Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
Welcome! Although your portfolio is heavy in crypto, please be aware that discussions of crypto as an investment is off-topic in this forum. See: Greater Fool Investing Strategies
Please stay focused on asset protection.Discussions of investment strategies based on securities or physical assets that have no underlying value or negative expected long term returns are prohibited. Examples include: cryptocurrencies; lottery tickets; tulip bulbs; Ponzi, pyramid, and multi-level marketing schemes; affinity frauds; and market manipulation schemes.
Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
How to handle a lot of your questions will depend on your state laws so even if you get well meaning suggestions here your state laws might be different so they might not be correct for you especially since you plan to move to a different state soon. I would likely look for a lawyer who is in the state you will be moving to.
It is likely best to focus how to hire a good financial advisor and lawyer that will not take advantage of you. I don't know a lot about that but there are some wikis related to this.
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Investment_adviser
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Financial_planner
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Estate_planning
Be sure to understand that the majority of Financial Advisors have a conflict of interest and may try to sell you high cost investments to make money off of you. Many are little better than used car salesmen so you need to be very careful to select a good one that will be worth their fees.
You can also search the forum for past posts looking for recommendations for financial advisors or pre-nutputal agreements by using the search box which is on most of the web pages. For example here are the results for "advisor recommendation"
https://www.google.com/search?sitesearc ... omendation
Somewhere in your planning you also need to figure out how your investments would be handled if something happens to you. For example if you are in a car accident and in a hospital for six months your investments might not work well if they require a lot of active management.
Be sure to research this well since people have posted that some states may be agressive in trying to claim that you still need to pay state taxes in the old state after you move if you don't completely cut your ties with the old state. Cutting the ties with the old state is not always as simple as just moving especially if you have something like a vacation home in the old state.theophiled wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:12 am Tax Situation: I currently live in a fantastic tax jurisdiction and would move to another state with no state income tax potentially by the end of this year.
Last edited by Watty on Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:05 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
I am a Male.
7+ years of relationship (her age is not mentioned) and her net worth is still <100K and dependent on you.
So, from a pure practical purpose, why get married and worry about all these ?
Do you plan on having kids? That is the ice breaker / deal braker in these type of relationships
7+ years of relationship (her age is not mentioned) and her net worth is still <100K and dependent on you.
So, from a pure practical purpose, why get married and worry about all these ?
Do you plan on having kids? That is the ice breaker / deal braker in these type of relationships
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Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
She wants children. I know that I want kids by 40-42. Regardless, if I do not get married but have kids - what kind of attorney should I speak to? Family Law, Divorce Attorney, Estate Planning attorney, anyone else? So many options - having some guidance would be appreciated.niceguy7376 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:00 am I am a Male.
7+ years of relationship (her age is not mentioned) and her net worth is still <100K and dependent on you.
So, from a pure practical purpose, why get married and worry about all these ?
Do you plan on having kids? That is the ice breaker / deal braker in these type of relationships
- TomatoTomahto
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Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
If it were me, first port of call would be an Estate Attorney; whether or not you have children, you'd want some means to provide for your GF in the event of your death. They can direct you to additional resources.theophiled wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:10 amShe wants children. I know that I want kids by 40-42. Regardless, if I do not get married but have kids - what kind of attorney should I speak to? Family Law, Divorce Attorney, Estate Planning attorney, anyone else? So many options - having some guidance would be appreciated.niceguy7376 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:00 am I am a Male.
7+ years of relationship (her age is not mentioned) and her net worth is still <100K and dependent on you.
So, from a pure practical purpose, why get married and worry about all these ?
Do you plan on having kids? That is the ice breaker / deal braker in these type of relationships
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
You need to be very careful in these matters. She will need to get her own attorney, paid for by her. And if you put a lot of resources into protecting your interests while she does not do similar for herself, a good attorney may be able to argue that she was not adequately represented. Much depends upon how your state laws tend to lean.
Best regards, -Op |
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Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
Just wanted to mention that in some areas cohabitating with your significant other entails some of the aspects that marriage does, under the law.
As others have stated these laws vary a lot depending on locale.
Ask yourself how much the downside scenario would affect you, and how much you trust this woman. If you don't feel you can trust her, marriage and kids wouldn't be a good idea, regardless of the money. If you do trust her, and end up divorcing at some point, you still have 5 million+ and are set for life. Could be considered an acceptable risk for some.
Talk about it with her. My wife actually suggested a pre-nup to me before we were married. I declined. She tries to pay for as much as she can and is always looking out for me. This is how I know I can trust her. She wants to be fair and do her part.
Some of this is a legal decision, but a lot of it is really something else.
As others have stated these laws vary a lot depending on locale.
Ask yourself how much the downside scenario would affect you, and how much you trust this woman. If you don't feel you can trust her, marriage and kids wouldn't be a good idea, regardless of the money. If you do trust her, and end up divorcing at some point, you still have 5 million+ and are set for life. Could be considered an acceptable risk for some.
Talk about it with her. My wife actually suggested a pre-nup to me before we were married. I declined. She tries to pay for as much as she can and is always looking out for me. This is how I know I can trust her. She wants to be fair and do her part.
Some of this is a legal decision, but a lot of it is really something else.
43% Total Stock Market | 53% Consumer Staples | 4% Short Term Reserves
- CrazyCatLady
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Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
You need to find an attorney who specializes in pre-nups/cohabitation agreements and regularly does them for HNW individuals. Typically they are family law or tax/estate planning attorneys (or a team of both). Generally speaking they will likely work for the larger firms in your state/city, though occasionally it may be a boutique firm. In my state, there is a handful of attorneys who seem to handle all the HNW divorce/pre-nups. You can either look to see who repeatedly appears in these kind of cases, or maybe call the bar association and see who they recommend (explain exactly what you need, don’t just say family law attorney). I’d get with someone sooner rather than later, because there could be issues you don’t expect (like common law marriage). IANYL, so take everything I say with a grain of salt.
Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
Acronym decoder: IANYL - I Am Not Your Lawyer.
Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
Seems like you should consult an attorney for sure. I do remember reading that Mark Zuckerberg got married 1 day after the Facebook IPO so I’m sure they’re an entire industry that specializes in these issues. Even if you need to pay $1000 / hour likely money well spent — not like index investing where lower costs are always better.
I’ll also give some personal advice that mid to late 30s is a great time to have kids as the guy. Obviously you are successful in your career so don’t have any financial issues but hopefully you’ve had enough other experiences (travel, various hobby times) so you won’t feel like you’ve missing out when the time demands of kids happen. I had my kids at 35 and 37 (I’m now 47) and think that’s a better time than waiting until 45 to have a first child (although 45 isn’t bad either, better late than never).
If you’ve been dating your partner x 7 years hopefully you know her well (and I assume some of this time has been living together) but the demands of a small child can be very stressful and change things. You can comfortably afford a nanny even with a stay at home wife which I would suggest (as ridiculous as it sounds m) having been through small kid times, unless you have a lot of family willing to help out.
If you really want no financial risks don’t have children as if you split up you’ll pay a lot even with a prenup. But as someone else posted above even in worst case scenario you’d still be left with 5 million+ (assuming no asset crash) so you’re in a much better situation than someone with 2 million looking at the downside to starting a family with a non working spouse.
I’ll also give some personal advice that mid to late 30s is a great time to have kids as the guy. Obviously you are successful in your career so don’t have any financial issues but hopefully you’ve had enough other experiences (travel, various hobby times) so you won’t feel like you’ve missing out when the time demands of kids happen. I had my kids at 35 and 37 (I’m now 47) and think that’s a better time than waiting until 45 to have a first child (although 45 isn’t bad either, better late than never).
If you’ve been dating your partner x 7 years hopefully you know her well (and I assume some of this time has been living together) but the demands of a small child can be very stressful and change things. You can comfortably afford a nanny even with a stay at home wife which I would suggest (as ridiculous as it sounds m) having been through small kid times, unless you have a lot of family willing to help out.
If you really want no financial risks don’t have children as if you split up you’ll pay a lot even with a prenup. But as someone else posted above even in worst case scenario you’d still be left with 5 million+ (assuming no asset crash) so you’re in a much better situation than someone with 2 million looking at the downside to starting a family with a non working spouse.
Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
The OP should find a family law lawyer NOW because he should not rely on a bunch of strangers for an issue that appears to be so important to him.
If the issue is not important enough, then the OP should just break up with his partner. Don’t wait too long because she could sue him for squandering her youth.
If the issue is not important enough, then the OP should just break up with his partner. Don’t wait too long because she could sue him for squandering her youth.
Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
Estate planning with a focus on trusts, maybe asset protection, but I’m not sure about those attorneys, their websites seem kind of scammy for the most part.theophiled wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:10 amShe wants children. I know that I want kids by 40-42. Regardless, if I do not get married but have kids - what kind of attorney should I speak to? Family Law, Divorce Attorney, Estate Planning attorney, anyone else? So many options - having some guidance would be appreciated.niceguy7376 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:00 am I am a Male.
7+ years of relationship (her age is not mentioned) and her net worth is still <100K and dependent on you.
So, from a pure practical purpose, why get married and worry about all these ?
Do you plan on having kids? That is the ice breaker / deal braker in these type of relationships
Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
$35 million is definitely high net worth, but any firm with a good trusts and estates practice should have many clients at that level or higher.
One prominent trusts and estates lawyer recently referred to that level as "middle rich," meaning that a couple at that level may not want to give away their $25,840,000 estate and gift tax exclusion amounts now to use them in case the exclusion amount reverts to pre-2018 law in 2026 as scheduled.
Prenuptial agreements are sometimes done by trusts and estates lawyers and sometimes by matrimonial lawyers. I think trusts and estates lawyers draft more precisely, and I find it easier when doing them if the lawyer on the other side is also a trusts and estates lawyer. However, on larger ones, we'll sometimes bring in a matrimonial lawyer to review it.
Premarital assets are exempt from equitable distribution (division) on divorce in most states but an agreement may make sense here, since the original poster could move, or the law could change, or it may be difficult to trace the assets.
At $35 million there are likely to be other planning techniques as well.
One prominent trusts and estates lawyer recently referred to that level as "middle rich," meaning that a couple at that level may not want to give away their $25,840,000 estate and gift tax exclusion amounts now to use them in case the exclusion amount reverts to pre-2018 law in 2026 as scheduled.
Prenuptial agreements are sometimes done by trusts and estates lawyers and sometimes by matrimonial lawyers. I think trusts and estates lawyers draft more precisely, and I find it easier when doing them if the lawyer on the other side is also a trusts and estates lawyer. However, on larger ones, we'll sometimes bring in a matrimonial lawyer to review it.
Premarital assets are exempt from equitable distribution (division) on divorce in most states but an agreement may make sense here, since the original poster could move, or the law could change, or it may be difficult to trace the assets.
At $35 million there are likely to be other planning techniques as well.
Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
OP,
You now know you need attorneys that specialize in trusts and family law for HNW individuals . The big question is how to find those in your community that serve this niche. Surely you have used an array of attorneys in your business dealings. Perhaps you have a banking relationship that deals with HNW clientele. The are all resources who can refer you to the right people at the right firms.
Good luck.
You now know you need attorneys that specialize in trusts and family law for HNW individuals . The big question is how to find those in your community that serve this niche. Surely you have used an array of attorneys in your business dealings. Perhaps you have a banking relationship that deals with HNW clientele. The are all resources who can refer you to the right people at the right firms.
Good luck.
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Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
Where are you located? If in NYC I can give you a name of a great trust and estate lawyer for you check out that I have used and have total trust in.
You can private message me for the info.
You can private message me for the info.
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Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
I'll just add that Raul Felder is a nationally name in the pre-nupt area. I don't know where he's located.
Best bet is to find the best law firm in your area and go with their guy. Business people usually can usually name the best 3-4 law firms because they have used them or seen them in court.
Best bet is to find the best law firm in your area and go with their guy. Business people usually can usually name the best 3-4 law firms because they have used them or seen them in court.
Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
I was in a similar situation 30 years early. Yes, get an attorney/estate guy that’s the easy part. The one question I had to ask myself (honestly) as she (provided emotional support) also rode the roller coast ride of wealth accumulation: How much should she receive if I suddenly died tomorrow? That number became the base I wrote into our agreement irrespective of how the relationship progressed or didn’t. Never regretted that decision as it provided us with the space to grow without fear. Once you commit to that number your other questions/fears of marriage, kids or whatever can unfold as they will or you may part ways with much less drama. Those options priceless.
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Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
Could you live by yourself on $17,500,000? (i.e. half of current assets, in the event of split)?theophiled wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:12 am Hello Boglers,
My approximate data is as follows:
+$9mm RE assets - ~ (no debt)
+$1mm Equities / Stock - ~
+$15mm Crypto - liquid
$10mm Venture funds (LP) / SPVs -
=$35,000,000
if so, I don't see the problem.
It's hard to accept the truth when the lies were exactly what you wanted to hear. Investing is simple, but not easy. Buy, hold & rebalance low cost index funds & manage taxable events. Asking Portfolio Questions |
Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
A relevant and instructive case. Just to show the range of possibilities (IRMO MURRAY and CARY LYNN LOBEL, 2012):
https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case ... 7570168559
https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case ... 7570168559
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Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
Even Dave Ramsey suggests a pre-nup for high net people. He may take issue with the virtue of doing so, but he does not deny the reality of the “weirdness” millions brings into the equation. You might see if he personally has any advice through his company. He deals with HMW athletes and could be a good start.
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Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
You definitely need a prenup, and also an estate planning attorney. You should prefer attorneys who have experience with assets in your range - above the estate tax threshold, but not A-list celebrity level wealth. Interview at least a few and find someone you like. There aren’t many on these forums who have experience with this stuff so take any specific suggestions you get here with a grain of salt. “bsteiner” would be an exception and I would listen to whatever he has to say.
Your assets are many times mine, but on asset protection specifically, I will caution you that I looked into asset protection strategies for my own situation, and concluded they were not worth the cost and hassle. There are firms that specialize in offshore asset protection trusts and such, and they are very expensive to set up and to maintain, and add lots of complexity. They are also weaker than advertised, because a judge can just throw you in jail if you refuse to satisfy a judgment with money inside an asset protection trust. Despite the scare tactics likely used to market such products, I came to the conclusion they were nowhere near worth the downsides, and simple/cheap asset protection (eg. Umbrella insurance) was much smarter. Now, whether some strategy would make sense in the context of a prenup may be another question. Just be cautious that you may be targeted for marketing of products that might be good for the firms selling them, but not necessarily for you. Good luck!
Your assets are many times mine, but on asset protection specifically, I will caution you that I looked into asset protection strategies for my own situation, and concluded they were not worth the cost and hassle. There are firms that specialize in offshore asset protection trusts and such, and they are very expensive to set up and to maintain, and add lots of complexity. They are also weaker than advertised, because a judge can just throw you in jail if you refuse to satisfy a judgment with money inside an asset protection trust. Despite the scare tactics likely used to market such products, I came to the conclusion they were nowhere near worth the downsides, and simple/cheap asset protection (eg. Umbrella insurance) was much smarter. Now, whether some strategy would make sense in the context of a prenup may be another question. Just be cautious that you may be targeted for marketing of products that might be good for the firms selling them, but not necessarily for you. Good luck!
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Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
As I read this thread I had the same thought. If you can survive on $17M, and possibly build it further in the future as you have in the past, then protecting half your current savings should not be the principal question you consider in getting married.arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:50 pm
Could you live by yourself on $17,500,000? (i.e. half of current assets, in the event of split)?
if so, I don't see the problem.
I would first consider questions of love, trust, and intent. Do you plan to do things in the future that might lead to a divorce? Do you know your potential spouse well enough to assess whether they are likely do things in the future that would lead to a divorce? Have you talked explicitly about whether you both view a marriage with children as a lifetime relationship vs. a ten year experiment?
Bottom line, most states will probably preserve your assets before marriage if you are careful not to commingle them. It should be easy to find out the standards in your current and prospective states of residence. As another poster (sort of) suggested, if you feel you must have a pre-nup, starting with an agreement that you will invest $10M in BH-style index funds and set that bundle aside as a minimum settlement for your spouse in any future divorce would go a long way to removing fear and distrust as you both enter a committed marriage.
Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
There’s so much more to think about.
Take lifestyle - what standard of living do you see for yourself and your love? And kids - what standard do you intend for them to have?
And of course family and in-laws, do you give your family money? Does she give her family money, if so under what circumstances?
And in general- is there something you want to do with the money you have?
I will say this - you have 15m invested in crypto, but you seem to think marriage is a risky proposition - maybe you should think about that.
Take lifestyle - what standard of living do you see for yourself and your love? And kids - what standard do you intend for them to have?
And of course family and in-laws, do you give your family money? Does she give her family money, if so under what circumstances?
And in general- is there something you want to do with the money you have?
I will say this - you have 15m invested in crypto, but you seem to think marriage is a risky proposition - maybe you should think about that.
Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
I read this whole thing, what a horrific story. I worry about the power relationships in these situations: rich person hires a lawyer to make the most unfair possible (within the law) agreement, the poorer partner agrees, and then the rich partner hires another set of fine lawyers to cut the partner out when she gets ill. Especially noting in this situation, that after 5 years, she gets no more support at all from the husband. And she gets cheated on the most minor details: she took the furnishings from a vacation house to use in her rental, and has to pay him half the initial cost for the stuff-- vs. that actual market value of perhaps 1/10 the cost.mmse wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:55 pm A relevant and instructive case. Just to show the range of possibilities (IRMO MURRAY and CARY LYNN LOBEL, 2012):
https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case ... 7570168559
Marriage doesn't seem appropriate for these transactional relationships with reservations.
- burritoLover
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Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
Move to Puerto Rico and don't get married. They don't recognize common law marriages either. With that amount of money, you'd live like a king and taxes are lower.
Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
Sounds like an easy statement to make when it isn't your $17,500,000.arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:50 pm
Could you live by yourself on $17,500,000? (i.e. half of current assets, in the event of split)?
if so, I don't see the problem.
- arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
i wouldn't have a problem living on either $17,500,000 or $35,000,000.THY4373 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:30 amSounds like an easy statement to make when it isn't your $17,500,000.arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:50 pm
Could you live by yourself on $17,500,000? (i.e. half of current assets, in the event of split)?
if so, I don't see the problem.
It's hard to accept the truth when the lies were exactly what you wanted to hear. Investing is simple, but not easy. Buy, hold & rebalance low cost index funds & manage taxable events. Asking Portfolio Questions |
Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
In case the OP does not know, bsteiner is one of those expert trusts and estates attorneys in a major big city law firm. I would carefully read everything he says on the topic.
You could look for someone in that sort of position. You could look for pre-eminent ratings from Martindale-Hubbell. You could look for ACTEC fellows. You could consult with the trusts department of your bank and ask for recommendations of experts. If your bank does not have a large trusts department, pick one nearby that does, give them some idea of your assets and tell them you need to start with an expert attorney. You will be under no obligation to do business with them at all, let alone appoint them as a trustee. But they will be happy to talk with you. At your level, they might even make private banking offers yhat you want.
Nothing you have said suggests you need a financial planner. As a committed boglehead, I would unload the crypto. Beyond that, you may be doing fine on your investments.
I would find an expert attorney and review your exposures and options. Once you have those conversations, you can think about how you might want to allocate funds to her if things do not work out.
As noted above, depending on your state law and the nature of your relationship, she may already be entitled to something. Your lawyer can tell you. Make sure to tell the lawyer about your possible move. They may know the law in your new state or may bring in an expert from the new state.
You could look for someone in that sort of position. You could look for pre-eminent ratings from Martindale-Hubbell. You could look for ACTEC fellows. You could consult with the trusts department of your bank and ask for recommendations of experts. If your bank does not have a large trusts department, pick one nearby that does, give them some idea of your assets and tell them you need to start with an expert attorney. You will be under no obligation to do business with them at all, let alone appoint them as a trustee. But they will be happy to talk with you. At your level, they might even make private banking offers yhat you want.
Nothing you have said suggests you need a financial planner. As a committed boglehead, I would unload the crypto. Beyond that, you may be doing fine on your investments.
I would find an expert attorney and review your exposures and options. Once you have those conversations, you can think about how you might want to allocate funds to her if things do not work out.
As noted above, depending on your state law and the nature of your relationship, she may already be entitled to something. Your lawyer can tell you. Make sure to tell the lawyer about your possible move. They may know the law in your new state or may bring in an expert from the new state.
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--Fama
Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
Making financial decisions entirely on the point they would have no effect on your lifestyle seems to be extremely simplistic. It seems to me there are many other criteria beyond that to consider.arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: ↑Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:46 am i wouldn't have a problem living on either $17,500,000 or $35,000,000.
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Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
From Jack Bogle's book Enough:THY4373 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 29, 2023 11:59 amMaking financial decisions entirely on the point they would have no effect on your lifestyle seems to be extremely simplistic. It seems to me there are many other criteria beyond that to consider.arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: ↑Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:46 am i wouldn't have a problem living on either $17,500,000 or $35,000,000.
if the OP wants to do a prenup and the fiance agrees more power to them. All they have to do is get their trusted lawyers to write it up and help them think through the issues relevant to them both.Based on this anecdote, Kurt Vonnegut wrote this obituary/poem for The New Yorker in May of 2005 .
True story, Word of Honor:
Joseph Heller, an important and funny writer now dead, and I were at a party given by a billionaire on Shelter Island. I said, “Joe, how does it make you feel to know that our host only yesterday may have made more money than your novel ‘Catch-22’ has earned in its entire history?”
And Joe said, “I’ve got something he can never have.” And I said, “What on earth could that be, Joe?” And Joe said, “The knowledge that I’ve got enough.” Not bad! Rest in peace!”
All I'm saying is that with that amount of money, even if half is lost, the OP is in the 1%. There's nothing to worry about (provided the OP has sufficient umbrella coverage).
It's hard to accept the truth when the lies were exactly what you wanted to hear. Investing is simple, but not easy. Buy, hold & rebalance low cost index funds & manage taxable events. Asking Portfolio Questions |
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Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
What questions or things would you propose to the estate attorney? What would you be looking to accomplish? Just curious how others think -TomatoTomahto wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:19 am If it were me, first port of call would be an Estate Attorney; whether or not you have children, you'd want some means to provide for your GF in the event of your death. They can direct you to additional resources.
- would you want to protect assets before marriage for yourself in the event of divorce?
- provide some level of security to your future spouse in case something happened to you?
- How much would you allocate to her/him in the event of your death?
- How would you structure taking care of potential future kids?
Obviously these are very personal questions but I often hear people say, oh talk to an estate attorney or get a trust setup but they don't offer anything other than that. Once you start digging into trusts and estate plans - it's a world of optionality.
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Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
I would lay out my values to the estate attorney and ask how best to implement them. You don't have kids (yet) so trusts for them can wait; you might also decide to be child free.theophiled wrote: ↑Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:49 pmWhat questions or things would you propose to the estate attorney? What would you be looking to accomplish? Just curious how others think -TomatoTomahto wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:19 am If it were me, first port of call would be an Estate Attorney; whether or not you have children, you'd want some means to provide for your GF in the event of your death. They can direct you to additional resources.
- would you want to protect assets before marriage for yourself in the event of divorce?
- provide some level of security to your future spouse in case something happened to you?
- How much would you allocate to her/him in the event of your death?
- How would you structure taking care of potential future kids?
Obviously these are very personal questions but I often hear people say, oh talk to an estate attorney or get a trust setup but they don't offer anything other than that. Once you start digging into trusts and estate plans - it's a world of optionality.
Your GF was with you before you had as much as you have now, so I think a fair treatment is that if you die a month after your wedding, she gets a reasonable amount; say a quarter of what you''ve accumulated as a couple before marriage. Personally, I would give her the same amount in the event of a divorce, but that's me.
My wife earned a lot during our time together. There was a time when I earned as much as she did, but then became a SAHD (Stay At Home Dad). We did a postnup to cover what would happen if, for example, we divorced 10 years after I quit working, which in tech is a lifetime. It was a fair agreement. Happily, we are still together
There are real benefits to taking the high road.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
If you lost 50% of your NW in a divorce (which I don’t think would be likely in most states given how much NW you’re bringing into the marriage), you’d still have over 17 M. Do you have a business that would be seriously impaired in such an event? Are you unable to live on that? If no to both, one option would be to just not even bother with it. You’ve already been with your girlfriend for 7 years so I’m assuming you’re convinced she’s not a golddigger that will change her tune after marriage. Either way, sit down with a good attorney just to understand what could happen in the worst case scenario with no pre-nup. Any of the medium to larger-sized general practice law firms with a trusts & estates department should have someone great.theophiled wrote: ↑Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:49 pmWhat questions or things would you propose to the estate attorney? What would you be looking to accomplish? Just curious how others think -TomatoTomahto wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:19 am If it were me, first port of call would be an Estate Attorney; whether or not you have children, you'd want some means to provide for your GF in the event of your death. They can direct you to additional resources.
- would you want to protect assets before marriage for yourself in the event of divorce?
- provide some level of security to your future spouse in case something happened to you?
- How much would you allocate to her/him in the event of your death?
- How would you structure taking care of potential future kids?
Obviously these are very personal questions but I often hear people say, oh talk to an estate attorney or get a trust setup but they don't offer anything other than that. Once you start digging into trusts and estate plans - it's a world of optionality.
Update: I personally wouldn’t put anything in a pre-nup about taking care of potential future kids in the event of divorce. But I believe men don’t generally fair so well on such issues so I suppose putting in joint custody (assuming they are upheld) wouldn’t be a bad idea. But going down this road too far makes it seem like you’re planning to fail, in which case why get married at all?
I’ve been married for 20 over years with multiple school aged children and I don’t think or worry about these types of issues for a second, even though we’re relatively high NW (but not in your category). And had I tried to negotiate any of them with my now wife, it would not have gone well.
Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
IANAL but I don’t think either side can negotiate away claims that future children would have for custody and support. You can put whatever on paper but a court probably won’t care. Obviously OP needs a lawyer in their state.Firemenot wrote: ↑Wed Mar 29, 2023 3:39 pmIf you lost 50% of your NW in a divorce (which I don’t think would be likely in most states given how much NW you’re bringing into the marriage), you’d still have over 17 M. Do you have a business that would be seriously impaired in such an event? Are you unable to live on that? If no to both, one option would be to just not even bother with it. You’ve already been with your girlfriend for 7 years so I’m assuming you’re convinced she’s not a golddigger that will change her tune after marriage. Either way, sit down with a good attorney just to understand what could happen in the worst case scenario with no pre-nup. Any of the medium to larger-sized general practice law firms with a trusts & estates department should have someone great.theophiled wrote: ↑Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:49 pmWhat questions or things would you propose to the estate attorney? What would you be looking to accomplish? Just curious how others think -TomatoTomahto wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:19 am If it were me, first port of call would be an Estate Attorney; whether or not you have children, you'd want some means to provide for your GF in the event of your death. They can direct you to additional resources.
- would you want to protect assets before marriage for yourself in the event of divorce?
- provide some level of security to your future spouse in case something happened to you?
- How much would you allocate to her/him in the event of your death?
- How would you structure taking care of potential future kids?
Obviously these are very personal questions but I often hear people say, oh talk to an estate attorney or get a trust setup but they don't offer anything other than that. Once you start digging into trusts and estate plans - it's a world of optionality.
Update: I personally wouldn’t put anything in a pre-nup about taking care of potential future kids in the event of divorce. But I believe men don’t generally fair so well on such issues so I suppose putting in joint custody (assuming they are upheld) wouldn’t be a bad idea. But going down this road too far makes it seem like you’re planning to fail, in which case why get married at all?
I’ve been married for 20 over years with multiple school aged children and I don’t think or worry about these types of issues for a second, even though we’re relatively high NW (but not in your category). And had I tried to negotiate any of them with my now wife, it would not have gone well.
Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
For the prenup, you want a divorce / family law lawyer. Not only that, when they give you lots of good advice for your local law, you still have to actually follow it! I’m thinking of a guy who had a prenup and was told to keep his premarital assets in separate accounts and not to mix the funds. He didn’t listen, kept lots of his money in their joint account, and then spent years and tons on lawyers before having to agree to a huge payoff to resolve what could have been cleanly handled by the lawyers from the start, only if he followed their advice.
To the people saying he should be fine with giving away half his money to his girlfriend after things don’t work out by not getting a prenup and getting married,
1. Even with a prenup, you can still leave them your premarital assets in a trust or will, but you can change your mind too if things go bad
2. He might rather leave that half of his money to his next wife/girlfriend, his children with the next one, or his favorite charity, rather than his ex after things don’t work out
To the people saying he should be fine with giving away half his money to his girlfriend after things don’t work out by not getting a prenup and getting married,
1. Even with a prenup, you can still leave them your premarital assets in a trust or will, but you can change your mind too if things go bad
2. He might rather leave that half of his money to his next wife/girlfriend, his children with the next one, or his favorite charity, rather than his ex after things don’t work out
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Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
To me this is the most alarming statement, especially with the huge net worth discrepancy.
Does she work or does she have any source of income? If not, I would make sure this gets vetted before proceeding further because when one person solely relies on another person for their livelihood, there is so much at stake for both people involved that when something turns sour it usually becomes very acrimonious.
Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
A great attorney doesn't just provide answers. They'll point out things you didn't even know you didn't know.theophiled wrote: ↑Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:49 pmWhat questions or things would you propose to the estate attorney? What would you be looking to accomplish? Just curious how others think -TomatoTomahto wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:19 am If it were me, first port of call would be an Estate Attorney; whether or not you have children, you'd want some means to provide for your GF in the event of your death. They can direct you to additional resources.
- would you want to protect assets before marriage for yourself in the event of divorce?
- provide some level of security to your future spouse in case something happened to you?
- How much would you allocate to her/him in the event of your death?
- How would you structure taking care of potential future kids?
Obviously these are very personal questions but I often hear people say, oh talk to an estate attorney or get a trust setup but they don't offer anything other than that. Once you start digging into trusts and estate plans - it's a world of optionality.
But at a basic level, you'd probably want to provide for her for at least a year so she can get on her feet, you'd probably want to scale that support based on duration of the relationship. You could provide to her in trust for a term of years or for life.
The rest is personal. If you have no children, some people choose their neices and nephews, others choose charity, and others name their friends or surrogate children as remainder beneficiaries.
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Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
I have reached out to a family law attorney in my locale to identify the cohabitation and communal property laws. Curious to see what the laws are.homebuyer6426 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:45 am Just wanted to mention that in some areas cohabitating with your significant other entails some of the aspects that marriage does, under the law.
As others have stated these laws vary a lot depending on locale.
I have brought up a pre-nup in the past and she is aware she would engage / sign one should there be a marriage.homebuyer6426 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:45 am Ask yourself how much the downside scenario would affect you, and how much you trust this woman. If you don't feel you can trust her, marriage and kids wouldn't be a good idea, regardless of the money. If you do trust her, and end up divorcing at some point, you still have 5 million+ and are set for life. Could be considered an acceptable risk for some.
Talk about it with her. My wife actually suggested a pre-nup to me before we were married. I declined. She tries to pay for as much as she can and is always looking out for me. This is how I know I can trust her. She wants to be fair and do her part.
Some of this is a legal decision, but a lot of it is really something else.
To be honest, I'm contemplating the purpose of marriage in the first place. I have met some entrepreneurs who are of the mindset that you can have children without marriage and one fellow buddy has done exactly that. The concept of marriage seems like it presents a bunch of legal challenges to wealth / potential child issues / spousal support / alimony - should things turn out badly down the line. Maybe I'm not ready for marriage yet but this next stage seems scary not exciting - and that also worries me.
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Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
The problem is that some women don't want children without marriage. I suggest you ask her what she thinks about that.theophiled wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:35 pm I have brought up a pre-nup in the past and she is aware she would engage / sign one should there be a marriage.
To be honest, I'm contemplating the purpose of marriage in the first place. I have met some entrepreneurs who are of the mindset that you can have children without marriage and one fellow buddy has done exactly that. The concept of marriage seems like it presents a bunch of legal challenges to wealth / potential child issues / spousal support / alimony - should things turn out badly down the line. Maybe I'm not ready for marriage yet but this next stage seems scary not exciting - and that also worries me.
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Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
I like this idea very much. I very much intend to provide for her and my future possible family should I choose marriage (and if I suddenly died) but the fear of divorce and ramifications of it are top of mind.Wricha wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:42 pm I was in a similar situation 30 years early. Yes, get an attorney/estate guy that’s the easy part. The one question I had to ask myself (honestly) as she (provided emotional support) also rode the roller coast ride of wealth accumulation: How much should she receive if I suddenly died tomorrow? That number became the base I wrote into our agreement irrespective of how the relationship progressed or didn’t. Never regretted that decision as it provided us with the space to grow without fear. Once you commit to that number your other questions/fears of marriage, kids or whatever can unfold as they will or you may part ways with much less drama. Those options priceless.
I appreciate what you wrote.
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Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
We've been having a bit of a relationship dip recently because I have been scared of the next stage of life due to thinking of trusts, marriage, divorce, children, etc - this has pushed her to go back to work. She works as a nurse and is able to pick up shifts and set her schedule. For the last few years, we've been traveling and enjoying life more - but my recent emotional shifts and telling her I want her to work, have pushed her back into her profession.boogiehead wrote: ↑Wed Mar 29, 2023 4:53 pm To me this is the most alarming statement, especially with the huge net worth discrepancy.
Does she work or does she have any source of income? If not, I would make sure this gets vetted before proceeding further because when one person solely relies on another person for their livelihood, there is so much at stake for both people involved that when something turns sour it usually becomes very acrimonious.
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Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
This is very much the case - but there's a power element I believe that exists. If I were to explain she would be "set up" well, I think having children without marriage could be a viable option. Essentially discussing ahead of time and potentially papering / legally drafting certain things to secure her and the children's futures. But I ask myself if this is more complexity than it's worth.Marseille07 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:38 pm The problem is that some women don't want children without marriage. I suggest you ask her what she thinks about that.
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Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
It might be worthwhile, although a prenup + marriage is more common than making arrangements + not marrying. The latter is probably safer, if you want to seek that route.theophiled wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:58 pm This is very much the case - but there's a power element I believe that exists. If I were to explain she would be "set up" well, I think having children without marriage could be a viable option. Essentially discussing ahead of time and potentially papering / legally drafting certain things to secure her and the children's futures. But I ask myself if this is more complexity than it's worth.
Be sure to check out a list of common-law marriage states: https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia ... er2-4.html. If you are in one of them, living together might constitute marriage even if you didn't tie the knot.
Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
There's a risk to not marrying but having children as well. The risk is that you actually fall in love with the other person, build a whole life together and then you die and leave nothing to them, leaving them destitute and dependent upon your shared child for support.
It doesn't have to happen this way, but I've seen it. And yes, perhaps the decedent did intend this or didn't care. Just pointing it out.
It doesn't have to happen this way, but I've seen it. And yes, perhaps the decedent did intend this or didn't care. Just pointing it out.
Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
Are you ready for this person to be an equal parent with you?
Like have an equal say in if, for example, your hospitalized child is given opiate painkiller?
The non-financial decisions aren’t any easier than the financial ones. In fact, they can be a lot harder.
Like have an equal say in if, for example, your hospitalized child is given opiate painkiller?
The non-financial decisions aren’t any easier than the financial ones. In fact, they can be a lot harder.
Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
Yes there are only downsides to marriage for the high income earner. On the other hand your girlfriend has been with you for 7 years and before you were rich so anyone new you meet has a bigger chance of being a true gold digger.theophiled wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:35 pm
I have brought up a pre-nup in the past and she is aware she would engage / sign one should there be a marriage.
To be honest, I'm contemplating the purpose of marriage in the first place. I have met some entrepreneurs who are of the mindset that you can have children without marriage and one fellow buddy has done exactly that. The concept of marriage seems like it presents a bunch of legal challenges to wealth / potential child issues / spousal support / alimony - should things turn out badly down the line. Maybe I'm not ready for marriage yet but this next stage seems scary not exciting - and that also worries me.
Personally I feel that someone who’s willing to have a child with someone but not willing to marry them is sort of saying their partner isn’t good enough to be married to due to residual doubts, trust issues, childhood issues etc. I sure there are many rich guys who don’t get married and their partners puts up with it but think long and hard about how you want your life and relationship to be.
Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
OP, from the sounds of it, you just are not that into her. You are conjuring up schemes to keep your money yours. You don't see her as a relationship partner that has contributed substantially to your life such that she deserves a chunk of your change. You have the right to do what you want, but as the poster above intimated, if you want to avoid a future gold digger, keep the one who loved you while you were young and "poorer."
Good luck.
Good luck.
Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
Being that you’re talking about having children regardless of marriage, a useful thought experiment may be to ask yourself how you would want your daughter to be treated if she’s in the same position as your GF as an adult. If you wouldn’t want your daughter to take a particular path, then you shouldn’t ask it of your GF — and especially given you may have a daughter and you’ll be modeling a situation to her.
Re: Pre-nup / Asset Protection Trust for HNW individual / advice
One thing I think is good about prenups is having a clear discussion, in advance of any problems (breakup, cheating, etc), of what would constitute fair asset division of the pre and post martial assets under various future situations. Having both parties are on the same page on these financial and moral issues is worth a lot and bodes well for the future marriage, while if the discussion is contentious that can reveal possible problems that might not have been apparent during a phase when you’re both having a good time and you’re providing a nice lifestyle for you both. Write the prenup, agree, and never need it is the best outcome, after all.theophiled wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:58 pm If I were to explain she would be "set up" well, I think having children without marriage could be a viable option. Essentially discussing ahead of time and potentially papering / legally drafting certain things to secure her and the children's futures. But I ask myself if this is more complexity than it's worth.
Parenting is hard, especially for the mother, and there’s only so much wealth can help with that. Future asset division in my opinion should definitely reflect that.