Last Week Tonight on timeshares

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themesrob
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Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by themesrob »

This crosses Personal Finance and Personal Consumer Issues, but I recommend the recent segment from Last Week Tonight on timeshares and timeshare "exit" scams (warning: some salty language): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd2bbHoVQSM

I've seen a number of threads on these issues before, but this is an eye-opening watch. It's worth the 25 minutes, including for the absolute evisceration of Dave Ramsey and his endorsement of a timeshare exit company which later turned out to be a total scam (and then his bizarre doubling down). I had actually seen that endorsement mentioned in a few bogleheads threads.
eddot98
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by eddot98 »

We are timeshare owners and we have actually been very pleased with our ownership, until the pandemic hit. We bought our 3 weeks all on the secondary market starting over 20 years ago, with one costing only $1. Our maintenance fees were reasonable and we never went to our home resorts, exchanging into some nice resorts using RCI, mostly in the northeast US. The pandemic changed everything. We had been exchanging every year into Lake Placid, NY in February for a winter vacation and Smugglers Notch, VT in October for fall foliage. Since the pandemic started we haven’t been able to find any exchanges to anywhere that we want to go, even though we have a ridiculous amount of trading power.
Our resort where we had two weeks needed to raise their maintenance fees significantly due to the age of the units, so they offered to allow owners the opportunity to turn back their weeks for a few hundred dollars each. We jumped on that offer and now only have one week every other year at a different resort. We probably should get rid of that week too, but maintenance fees are not due for several months.
I would really like to find a legitimate exit strategy, DW is not so eager.
Glockenspiel
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by Glockenspiel »

eddot98 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:30 am We are timeshare owners and we have actually been very pleased with our ownership, until the pandemic hit. We bought our 3 weeks all on the secondary market starting over 20 years ago, with one costing only $1. Our maintenance fees were reasonable and we never went to our home resorts, exchanging into some nice resorts using RCI, mostly in the northeast US. The pandemic changed everything. We had been exchanging every year into Lake Placid, NY in February for a winter vacation and Smugglers Notch, VT in October for fall foliage. Since the pandemic started we haven’t been able to find any exchanges to anywhere that we want to go, even though we have a ridiculous amount of trading power.
Our resort where we had two weeks needed to raise their maintenance fees significantly due to the age of the units, so they offered to allow owners the opportunity to turn back their weeks for a few hundred dollars each. We jumped on that offer and now only have one week every other year at a different resort. We probably should get rid of that week too, but maintenance fees are not due for several months.
I would really like to find a legitimate exit strategy, DW is not so eager.
Yep. My in-laws keep buying more HGV/RCI points and I absolutely abhor it. There's no way to exchange weeks for anywhere that anyone would want to go to. Why not just rent a freaking AirBnB and vacation where you WANT to go? You can't sell your points for anything worth any value. They raise maintenance fees every year. My in-laws always pressure us to use some of their points but I don't want to go to the same location every year for vacation and don't want to go in the undesirable times that are available (we have school-age kids).
runner3081
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by runner3081 »

First off, that was about 20 minutes longer than it needed to be.

Second, prior to learning about finance, probably 20-years ago, we went to a presentation and bought in. Luckily, had a family friend who told us we were idiots and we were able to rescind. That would have been a very bad mistake!
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fetch5482
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by fetch5482 »

This was timely since we just agreed to attend a timeshare presentation in Mexico next month in exchange for an ultra cheap 5-nights all inclusive vacation.

Wife and I are on the same page - we do not want to purchase one. We have decent income, so we are probably good "targets" for these salespeople. We just plan to toe the line that "we do not make financial decisions without consulting our financial advisor and lawyer, so no thank you". I am sure they will have retorts ready, like telling that I can back out within X days if the consultant/lawyer says no etc; but we plan to just say "no thank you, if we want one we will buy later from secondary market".

We have both agreed that if any question is directed to the Mrs, she will just look at me and allow me to respond; so they cannot pit us against each other. The last time we attended a sales presentation was in Hawaii about a decade or so ago; so our skills are now a bit rusty but we still are resolved to just keep saying no.

Any other tips to avoid wasting time and escaping faster is appreciated.
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Longdog
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by Longdog »

fetch5482 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:01 pm This was timely since we just agreed to attend a timeshare presentation in Mexico next month in exchange for an ultra cheap 5-nights all inclusive vacation.

Any other tips to avoid wasting time and escaping faster is appreciated.
Always remember that you do not owe them a reason for declining their “offer.”
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teCh0010
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by teCh0010 »

Disney Vacation Club with the ability to rent your points out (and real demand there keeping point rentals at or ahead of maintenance) and a robust secondary market seems to be one of the only points based time shares that has actual value.
safari
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by safari »

I would just be honest and tell the sales person that we are only there because of the free vacation and that we won't be buying any timeshares regardless of what they say in the presentation, so they shouldn't waste any time on us. If they keep on pressing, I'd be firm in saying "no, absolutely not, my mind is set, no matter what you say or do" while staying polite.
prd1982
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by prd1982 »

For those with Wyndham, their exit program worked for me. They were willing to let my sister out of her timeshare. From what I read about exiting timeshares, being able to just give it back was a good deal.

I hate to think of the amt of money she & her husband spent vs. the amount of time at a resort.
Rex66
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by Rex66 »

its unfortunate that time shares are legal. They really should be illegal or new laws such that there are much easier ways to exit.

Even in those situations where people say im ok with it like the disney ones, its never actually some great deal.

Its like maybe just maybe you will get an okay deal with a time share but the vast majority of the time, you will get screwed.
Horologium
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by Horologium »

fetch5482 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:01 pm We just plan to toe the line that "we do not make financial decisions without consulting our financial advisor and lawyer, so no thank you". I am sure they will have retorts ready, ….
Any other tips to avoid wasting time and escaping faster is appreciated.
Yes. These people are serious pros at countering and overcoming objections. Yours is the same one I used the one time we did the time share visit and had to endure, er, sit through the presentation/sales pitch.

In our case, they piled on a bunch of extra perks that were ‘good for today only’ to counter my ‘I need to run this past my attorney’ objection.

The extra perks were enticing enough to make me pause, and I said “Let me think about it tonight and call you tomorrow”. But, they said their offer was only good right now. We had to decide then and there. That was enough for me. I said “forget it” and we left. If I could not even have a couple of hours to think about it, I knew I’d be making a mistake.
Horologium
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by Horologium »

Longdog wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:38 pm
fetch5482 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:01 pm This was timely since we just agreed to attend a timeshare presentation in Mexico next month in exchange for an ultra cheap 5-nights all inclusive vacation.

Any other tips to avoid wasting time and escaping faster is appreciated.
Always remember that you do not owe them a reason for declining their “offer.”
Another person told me to have a clear understanding of what you are required to do to get the benefit. If it is to sit through the presentation, fine. As soon as the presentation ends (assuming you’re not interested), get up and walk out. Don’t let them bully you into staying, talking to a sales specialist, getting a voucher endorsed, etc. You may have to get a little insistent, but stand your ground. (This was not our experience, but we were advised to be ready for it.)
neilpilot
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by neilpilot »

We must be doing something wrong. We own 2 deeded weeks, not points, with Marriott/Interval at Hilton Head. Bought on secondary market.

While maintenance fees have gone up, we have been able to trade into properties we wanted. Two weeks ago spent a week in SFO, and I’m posting this from Marriott Marbella in Spain. Next week we catch a cheap flight to Mallorca for a week in the Marriott TS there.

Maybe when we can no longer travel we’ll change our tune, but our TS has worked for us. A comparable AB&B or hotel would have cost way more.
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Stinky
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by Stinky »

neilpilot wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:59 am We must be doing something wrong. We own 2 deeded weeks, not points, with Marriott/Interval at Hilton Head. Bought on secondary market.

While maintenance fees have gone up, we have been able to trade into properties we wanted. Two weeks ago spent a week in SFO, and I’m posting this from Marriott Marbella in Spain. Next week we catch a cheap flight to Mallorca for a week in the Marriott TS there.

Maybe when we can no longer travel we’ll change our tune, but our TS has worked for us. A comparable AB&B or hotel would have cost way more.
Do you have any idea how what you paid compared to what the original buyer paid?

Somebody got “hosed” here. Maybe it just wasn’t you.
Retired life insurance company financial executive who sincerely believes that ”It’s a GREAT day to be alive!”
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fetch5482
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by fetch5482 »

Does anyone know if you need to answer the question about what's your annual salary during the presentation?

My wife and I don't discuss our salaries in front of the kid since we don't feel it's appropriate for them to learn that right now while they don't fully appreciate the value of money. We are debating whether to bring the kid (9 year old) you the presentation or let them check in to childcare during the presentation.

The presentation we plan to attend in Mexico during our stay has a requirement for minimum annual salary of $60K, which we qualify. We were wondering if we can just leave the response as "our annual income is and the qualification limit" or will they push for more specific salary ranges.
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bberris
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by bberris »

fetch5482 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:05 am Does anyone know if you need to answer the question about what's your annual salary during the presentation?

My wife and I don't discuss our salaries in front of the kid since we don't feel it's appropriate for them to learn that right now while they don't fully appreciate the value of money. We are debating whether to bring the kid (9 year old) you the presentation or let them check in to childcare during the presentation.

The presentation we plan to attend in Mexico during our stay has a requirement for minimum annual salary of $60K, which we qualify. We were wondering if we can just leave the response as "our annual income is and the qualification limit" or will they push for more specific salary ranges.
You don't have to say anything. I'm assuming you will be charged full price for the resort if you don't attend the pitch. Check the legalese and don't give them your card number or sign anything.
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fetch5482
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by fetch5482 »

bberris wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:48 am
fetch5482 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:05 am Does anyone know if you need to answer the question about what's your annual salary during the presentation?

My wife and I don't discuss our salaries in front of the kid since we don't feel it's appropriate for them to learn that right now while they don't fully appreciate the value of money. We are debating whether to bring the kid (9 year old) you the presentation or let them check in to childcare during the presentation.

The presentation we plan to attend in Mexico during our stay has a requirement for minimum annual salary of $60K, which we qualify. We were wondering if we can just leave the response as "our annual income is and the qualification limit" or will they push for more specific salary ranges.
You don't have to say anything. I'm assuming you will be charged full price for the resort if you don't attend the pitch. Check the legalese and don't give them your card number or sign anything.
We have decided we want you attend the presentation for the reduced vacation price. The question is if we attend and want to get the discounts, do we need to disclose the salary. I understand I have the option of walking out and paying full price any time, but I'm hoping we don't have to resort to that and instead get through the 2 hour preso for the $600 difference in retail price over 5 days.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by TomatoTomahto »

fetch5482 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:55 am
bberris wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:48 am
fetch5482 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:05 am Does anyone know if you need to answer the question about what's your annual salary during the presentation?

My wife and I don't discuss our salaries in front of the kid since we don't feel it's appropriate for them to learn that right now while they don't fully appreciate the value of money. We are debating whether to bring the kid (9 year old) you the presentation or let them check in to childcare during the presentation.

The presentation we plan to attend in Mexico during our stay has a requirement for minimum annual salary of $60K, which we qualify. We were wondering if we can just leave the response as "our annual income is and the qualification limit" or will they push for more specific salary ranges.
You don't have to say anything. I'm assuming you will be charged full price for the resort if you don't attend the pitch. Check the legalese and don't give them your card number or sign anything.
We have decided we want you attend the presentation for the reduced vacation price. The question is if we attend and want to get the discounts, do we need to disclose the salary. I understand I have the option of walking out and paying full price any time, but I'm hoping we don't have to resort to that and instead get through the 2 hour preso for the $600 difference in retail price over 5 days.
According to the show, you will be lied to during the presentation. I don't think telling a lie yourself will keep you out of heaven.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by barnaclebob »

fetch5482 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:55 am
bberris wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:48 am
fetch5482 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:05 am Does anyone know if you need to answer the question about what's your annual salary during the presentation?

My wife and I don't discuss our salaries in front of the kid since we don't feel it's appropriate for them to learn that right now while they don't fully appreciate the value of money. We are debating whether to bring the kid (9 year old) you the presentation or let them check in to childcare during the presentation.

The presentation we plan to attend in Mexico during our stay has a requirement for minimum annual salary of $60K, which we qualify. We were wondering if we can just leave the response as "our annual income is and the qualification limit" or will they push for more specific salary ranges.
You don't have to say anything. I'm assuming you will be charged full price for the resort if you don't attend the pitch. Check the legalese and don't give them your card number or sign anything.
We have decided we want you attend the presentation for the reduced vacation price. The question is if we attend and want to get the discounts, do we need to disclose the salary. I understand I have the option of walking out and paying full price any time, but I'm hoping we don't have to resort to that and instead get through the 2 hour preso for the $600 difference in retail price over 5 days.
Tell them "69". If they ask "thousand?", say "no, million" and then try to keep a straight face.
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JoMoney
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by JoMoney »

I'm always surprised when I hear about people buying a timeshare. It baffles me. Clearly there's a large market of people buying them, but in my mind it's something (that should be) widely known as a rip-off that's to be avoided. I see more advertisements for firms trying to help people get out of the mistake that is a timeshare than I ever do about timeshares themselves. Even weirder (to me) is people that own them and believe they represent valuable equity (rather than expensive liability you can't shake off) they'll leave to a family member... but it is a thing :confused
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climber2020
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by climber2020 »

JoMoney wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:28 am I'm always surprised when I hear about people buying a timeshare. It baffles me.
Never underestimate the ingenuity of fools.
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fetch5482
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by fetch5482 »

JoMoney wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:28 am I'm always surprised when I hear about people buying a timeshare. It baffles me. Clearly there's a large market of people buying them, but in my mind it's something (that should be) widely known as a rip-off that's to be avoided. I see more advertisements for firms trying to help people get out of the mistake that is a timeshare than I ever do about timeshares themselves. Even weirder (to me) is people that own them and believe they represent valuable equity (rather than expensive liability you can't shake off) they'll leave to a family member... but it is a thing :confused
The honest truth is that in the United States we do not get much financial teaching in college. We don't understand how to think about time value, opportunity costs etc unless someone (like a parent) teach it during formative years. People are simply not good at making such decisions and take pretend "experts" (who are really sales people) as authority.
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neilpilot
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by neilpilot »

Stinky wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 5:59 am
neilpilot wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:59 am We must be doing something wrong. We own 2 deeded weeks, not points, with Marriott/Interval at Hilton Head. Bought on secondary market.

While maintenance fees have gone up, we have been able to trade into properties we wanted. Two weeks ago spent a week in SFO, and I’m posting this from Marriott Marbella in Spain. Next week we catch a cheap flight to Mallorca for a week in the Marriott TS there.

Maybe when we can no longer travel we’ll change our tune, but our TS has worked for us. A comparable AB&B or hotel would have cost way more.
Do you have any idea how what you paid compared to what the original buyer paid?

Somebody got “hosed” here. Maybe it just wasn’t you.
It was 30 and 35 years ago, and I have no idea. Possibly in the range of $15k-18k? We paid in the range of $3k-$3250/week. With 60 or so weeks used to date, our capital investment isn’t really a factor. Our cost equals maintenance fee. The capital cost of our weeks is maybe $100/wk disregarding potential investment returns.
deltaneutral83
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by deltaneutral83 »

A lot like Whole Life, probably some very specific cases where it makes sense but not for the other 99-99.5%. I'd say fewer than 3% of the people that buy them know all the important terms such as the assessments and fee schedule. But like anything else, it's instant gratification, free trip for listening to a 3 hour presentation or something like that.

If the asset were so great the price to sell back on the primary or secondary market wouldn't be $1. Automobiles depreciate at the speed of molasses compared to Timeshares. Most TS's have no intrinsic value the day after you purchase. I've seen where someone sold it back for $1 and they charged a $400 "processing" fee so it cost them $399 to divest, hilarious, couldn't even give it back. Not many things under the sun in the financial arena that should be prioritized to outlaw like timeshares.

I know plenty of people who have bought them and a couple have run the numbers based on what they got had they booked with cash at the various places they stayed vs what they paid for the timeshare and it's usually in the 30-35% range once they get out of it. So paying $30k for a TS and getting $10k worth of travel. One other comical fee I was told was when a friend was only able to book a week at a destination if he agreed to move rooms after the first two nights which triggered another $78 "booking fee." They wound up being able to keep the same room when he showed up but the company had already processed the $78 fee and he gave up trying to get it back after the first 30 minute phone call to the TS customer service went no where.
themesrob wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:27 am It's worth the 25 minutes, including for the absolute evisceration of Dave Ramsey and his endorsement of a timeshare exit company which later turned out to be a total scam (and then his bizarre doubling down).
I'll have to watch this part, highly unlikely Ramsey would endorse full fledge scam artists. In fact I've known a person who use TSET to get out of one and it went fine. Perhaps there is additional info.
Gardener
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by Gardener »

I am not a fan of timeshares and would never purchase one.

I will say My parents have a couple of weeks and absolutely love it and truthfully the deal they have doesn’t sound bad at all.

That being said, I really don’t agree with people going to a time share presentation without any intention of considering purchasing something. You saving a little money does not justify taking up somebody’s time. It doesn’t matter that you do not respect the job of a timeshare salesmen. It’s disingenuous. You might respond that well, they are disingenuous too and dishonest. So be it. That’s all the more reason not to attend a time share presentation at all. It’s still wrong in my view.
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by smitcat »

teCh0010 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:43 pm Disney Vacation Club with the ability to rent your points out (and real demand there keeping point rentals at or ahead of maintenance) and a robust secondary market seems to be one of the only points based time shares that has actual value.
Yup - not a fan of timeshares but the Disney stuff has done very well over the years.
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fetch5482
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by fetch5482 »

Gardener wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:13 am That being said, I really don’t agree with people going to a time share presentation without any intention of considering purchasing something. You saving a little money does not justify taking up somebody’s time.
I respect your position here, but I do not agree with it.

The last time I attended a timeshare presentation was over 10 years ago (even before I was a boglehead) in Hawaii in exchange for chopper ride tickets. When we went to the desk to purchase the tickets at retail we were offered to attend the timeshare presentation in exchange for free tickets. Having read about the scam that it was (atleast most of the times), I told the lady at the desk that I decline the offer because I have no intention to purchase a timeshare, and feel it's not appropriate for me to get the free ticket given that case. The lady at the desk told me that didn't matter, and I'm being compensated just for listening, and that the presenters know that most people who come there have no intention to purchase. So I agreed.

It seems to me that the timeshare presentations are designed to get the maximum foot traffic in to allow the law of probability to work in their favor. I don't think it's wrong to take advantage of such deals when both parties are clear about their position from the get to: that I have no intention of buying, and they have every intention of changing my mind. Statistically, it seems that Timeshare presenters are successful in changing the mind for a good 10-15% of the people who attend these sales pitch.

If the sales person valued their time, they would let you walk out within minutes of you telling that you have no intention to make the purchase. But that rarely happens. If anything, I feel the TS folks are not being upfront about the fact that if you decline to purchase, you will be met (sometimes) with insult, guilt trips, lies and rude responses. I wish they were more upfront that this is a high pressure sales meeting, and they will be upset if you don't make the purchase.

Finally, you are also not made aware that the deal you will be presented will expire when you walk out of the presentation. This is worse than car salesman, where if you walk out atleast you get time to research, comparison shop, and then come back and accept if they still have the car in inventory. When you make the commitment to attend the presentation, they do not tell you that you will not get the time to do any research. If they are not upfront about anything, I don't see any moral issues with taking the discount for my personal benefit.
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themesrob
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by themesrob »

deltaneutral83 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:52 am
I'll have to watch this part, highly unlikely Ramsey would endorse full fledge scam artists. In fact I've known a person who use TSET to get out of one and it went fine. Perhaps there is additional info.
that section starts at 17:10 or so in the middle of the discussion of the exit company scams, and continues through 19:40ish
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by TomatoTomahto »

themesrob wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 2:50 pm
deltaneutral83 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:52 am
I'll have to watch this part, highly unlikely Ramsey would endorse full fledge scam artists. In fact I've known a person who use TSET to get out of one and it went fine. Perhaps there is additional info.
that section starts at 17:10 or so in the middle of the discussion of the exit company scams, and continues through 19:40ish
I don't have a dog in this fight, but Ramsey did not look very good when he doubled down.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by Jags4186 »

fetch5482 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:29 am
Gardener wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:13 am That being said, I really don’t agree with people going to a time share presentation without any intention of considering purchasing something. You saving a little money does not justify taking up somebody’s time.
I respect your position here, but I do not agree with it.

The last time I attended a timeshare presentation was over 10 years ago (even before I was a boglehead) in Hawaii in exchange for chopper ride tickets. When we went to the desk to purchase the tickets at retail we were offered to attend the timeshare presentation in exchange for free tickets. Having read about the scam that it was (atleast most of the times), I told the lady at the desk that I decline the offer because I have no intention to purchase a timeshare, and feel it's not appropriate for me to get the free ticket given that case. The lady at the desk told me that didn't matter, and I'm being compensated just for listening, and that the presenters know that most people who come there have no intention to purchase. So I agreed.

It seems to me that the timeshare presentations are designed to get the maximum foot traffic in to allow the law of probability to work in their favor. I don't think it's wrong to take advantage of such deals when both parties are clear about their position from the get to: that I have no intention of buying, and they have every intention of changing my mind. Statistically, it seems that Timeshare presenters are successful in changing the mind for a good 10-15% of the people who attend these sales pitch.

If the sales person valued their time, they would let you walk out within minutes of you telling that you have no intention to make the purchase. But that rarely happens. If anything, I feel the TS folks are not being upfront about the fact that if you decline to purchase, you will be met (sometimes) with insult, guilt trips, lies and rude responses. I wish they were more upfront that this is a high pressure sales meeting, and they will be upset if you don't make the purchase.

Finally, you are also not made aware that the deal you will be presented will expire when you walk out of the presentation. This is worse than car salesman, where if you walk out atleast you get time to research, comparison shop, and then come back and accept if they still have the car in inventory. When you make the commitment to attend the presentation, they do not tell you that you will not get the time to do any research. If they are not upfront about anything, I don't see any moral issues with taking the discount for my personal benefit.
I'm all about saving a buck, but personally I'm not spending upwards of an entire day of a vacation listening to someone try to sell me something I don't want in order to save a few $100. If I didn't have the money to go on the trip, I wouldn't go. And we aren't pinching pennies when we go away.

I mean, if you think about it, if you earn $100,000/yr and work 225 days a year, you make $444/day. If you waste one of your PTO days listening to someone while on vacation it's costing you $444 of compensation. If your spouse also makes $100k it's costing you $888 to waste that day.
bubbly
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by bubbly »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 2:57 pm
themesrob wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 2:50 pm
deltaneutral83 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:52 am
I'll have to watch this part, highly unlikely Ramsey would endorse full fledge scam artists. In fact I've known a person who use TSET to get out of one and it went fine. Perhaps there is additional info.
that section starts at 17:10 or so in the middle of the discussion of the exit company scams, and continues through 19:40ish
I don't have a dog in this fight, but Ramsey did not look very good when he doubled down.
It's because instead of addressing the issue or issuing a retraction or apology, he went to the age old tactic of bragging about how rich and successful he is. I agree it's not a good look.
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by deltaneutral83 »

bubbly wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:07 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 2:57 pm
I don't have a dog in this fight, but Ramsey did not look very good when he doubled down.
It's because instead of addressing the issue or issuing a retraction or apology, he went to the age old tactic of bragging about how rich and successful he is. I agree it's not a good look.
I guess if a company tasked with getting you out of a timeshare takes your money and doesn't do it, then that is indeed a disaster. He's been quick to unload on sponsors who went off the rails, don't know why he'd falsely defend TSET. Wyndham and Hilton have a lot of money to pay governors (i.e. "lobby") or whomever to get the ankle biter exit companies off of them. Why wouldn't the Governors outlaw timeshares themselves as opposed to the second derivative of TS exit con artists ?

I also wouldn't advise any media outlet (especially gossip rags like Inside Edition) to blindside DR at one of his company events as he's walking through the hotel. That's not going to go well for anyone. People can say what they want warts and all, but If I had built a company to $300M annual top line with just sweat equity and created over a thousand jobs, I wouldn't give one second of thought to a gossip rag questioning my integrity. I recognize he has warts around his retirement advice and I would laugh in his face about some of his musings, but overall he's one of the good guys, as opposed to timeshare sellers.

Hypothetically being schemed out of $30k from the Timeshare company itself vs $500 from an exit team seems odd. One thing I will say is that the exit teams were also accused of "doing things their customers could have done for themselves and charging for it." Well yea, the first thing they are going to do if they are reputable is call the Timeshare company and spend 15 minutes and try to let you give it back to them. If that works, then great, why wouldn't they do that?
bubbly wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:07 pm It's because instead of addressing the issue or issuing a retraction or apology, he went to the age old tactic of bragging about how rich and successful he is. I agree it's not a good look.
I can see how this comes off this way, but very little chance someone who has built what he has built is going to let a gossip outlet question his integrity without him coming out swinging. You and I would just laugh it off, but you and I also haven't created 1000+ jobs. It would be like Jim Cramer questioning Vanguard's motives. I mean, we'd have to laugh but others at VG might get a little testy.
Last edited by deltaneutral83 on Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
punkinhead
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by punkinhead »

My wife worked in IT for a large timeshare company that has been mentioned in this thread. One of the perks was a week or two (I forget) every year at any timeshare that had an opening. We rarely used it because they are in touristy areas that are not where we like to vacation. One time we were staying in a massive new timeshare building in Las Vegas and they tried to get us to buy in, even after explaining that she got the stay free as a work benefit. The salesman kept saying what a great deal it was until I countered with, "better than free?"
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by Longdog »

Horologium wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:36 pm
fetch5482 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:01 pm We just plan to toe the line that "we do not make financial decisions without consulting our financial advisor and lawyer, so no thank you". I am sure they will have retorts ready, ….
Any other tips to avoid wasting time and escaping faster is appreciated.
Yes. These people are serious pros at countering and overcoming objections. Yours is the same one I used the one time we did the time share visit and had to endure, er, sit through the presentation/sales pitch.

In our case, they piled on a bunch of extra perks that were ‘good for today only’ to counter my ‘I need to run this past my attorney’ objection.

The extra perks were enticing enough to make me pause, and I said “Let me think about it tonight and call you tomorrow”. But, they said their offer was only good right now. We had to decide then and there. That was enough for me. I said “forget it” and we left. If I could not even have a couple of hours to think about it, I knew I’d be making a mistake.
Without a doubt, you made the right decision. But I am also confident that had you returned the next day, found the same salesman, and said, “If you can give me the same offer you gave me yesterday, then you have a deal,” after being shocked to see you return, they would have honored the same deal. That’s a typical nonsensical, disingenuous sales technique to create a false sense of urgency when they believe there is no chance the customer will return. Same approach is used by some car salespeople on some brands.
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by ROIGuy »

We were invited to a timeshare presentation in a Marriott Kauai resort a few years ago. First rule is never let them drive you off property to the presentation site, especially in places like Mexico. They had a nice building set up on the property. Personally I had always wanted to hear what these presentations were like, and we know better than to buy one of these, but they offered got a bunch of hotel points for about a 90 min presentation and it was on property so we accepted.

The fun part was that they couldn't overcome our objections/challenges. Everyone was nice enough and I think they got the idea it wasn't going anywhere. In fact, afterwards my DW and I came with a number of better ways for them to present their offer; of course we weren't going to tell them how.
mreed911
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by mreed911 »

I own a timeshare week and have for 10+ years. It's a unicorn, though. It's somewhere I go every year, like clockwork. It's "local" but affiliated with Hilton, but doesn't require I join HGVC (I only own "locally," no HGVC membership/points). It's well managed, with a board that has sinking funds for all repairs based on the expected life of the thing (elevators, carpets, appliances, furnishings, etc.). Rates have only ever gone up 1-1.5% a year (that might change a bit with inflation) and the cost for my week is WELL under rental prices in the area, and includes significant amenities that would cost more if added separately.

There are good deals out there but the big "vacation clubs" aren't it.
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by neilpilot »

Jags4186 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:03 pm

I'm all about saving a buck, but personally I'm not spending upwards of an entire day of a vacation listening to someone try to sell me something I don't want in order to save a few $100. If I didn't have the money to go on the trip, I wouldn't go. And we aren't pinching pennies when we go away.

I mean, if you think about it, if you earn $100,000/yr and work 225 days a year, you make $444/day. If you waste one of your PTO days listening to someone while on vacation it's costing you $444 of compensation. If your spouse also makes $100k it's costing you $888 to waste that day.
With the way you calculate the opportunity cost of attending a TS presentation, you might qualify as a TS salesman. I’ve attended a few, but never bought a week at one. They’ve all been scheduled for 60-90 minutes, and are often cut short once the salesperson understands there’s no way I’m buying.

I have a hard time equating 90 min to “upwards of an entire day.
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fetch5482
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by fetch5482 »

The one I'm attending in Mexico is a presentation for 90-120 mins. Assuming 2 hours plus some check-in/out time let's round it up to 2.5 hours. That's 5 hours between my and spouse total.
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diy60
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by diy60 »

Rex66 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:28 pm its unfortunate that time shares are legal. They really should be illegal or new laws such that there are much easier ways to exit.

Even in those situations where people say im ok with it like the disney ones, its never actually some great deal.

Its like maybe just maybe you will get an okay deal with a time share but the vast majority of the time, you will get screwed.
Agreed. Timeshares we’re all the rage 20 to 30 years ago. Now with the aging generation of owners their children are going to be in for an unpleasant surprise in settling their estate. Close family member just went thru this, very frustrating and unnecessary. Somebody should have to do prison time.
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by jhawktx »

climber2020 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:36 am
JoMoney wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:28 am I'm always surprised when I hear about people buying a timeshare. It baffles me.
Never underestimate the ingenuity of fools.
Timeshares and long term care insurance should be avoided. But once someone gets suckered into either they will valiantly try to put lipstick on the pig.
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by Jags4186 »

neilpilot wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:21 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:03 pm

I'm all about saving a buck, but personally I'm not spending upwards of an entire day of a vacation listening to someone try to sell me something I don't want in order to save a few $100. If I didn't have the money to go on the trip, I wouldn't go. And we aren't pinching pennies when we go away.

I mean, if you think about it, if you earn $100,000/yr and work 225 days a year, you make $444/day. If you waste one of your PTO days listening to someone while on vacation it's costing you $444 of compensation. If your spouse also makes $100k it's costing you $888 to waste that day.
With the way you calculate the opportunity cost of attending a TS presentation, you might qualify as a TS salesman. I’ve attended a few, but never bought a week at one. They’ve all been scheduled for 60-90 minutes, and are often cut short once the salesperson understands there’s no way I’m buying.

I have a hard time equating 90 min to “upwards of an entire day.
I'm simply going by what was presented in the story which said some folks had to sit through upwards of 7 hours of presentations, and another person just gave in after 5 hours because they were diabetic and needed to eat.

IMO, even wasting 90 minutes of the precious little vacation many of us get is a losing proposition. But, everyone has to make the value judgment for themself. My vacations are already mostly free through points earned via credit card sign up offers and company paid business travel.
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by TomatoTomahto »

jhawktx wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:00 pm
climber2020 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:36 am
JoMoney wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:28 am I'm always surprised when I hear about people buying a timeshare. It baffles me.
Never underestimate the ingenuity of fools.
Timeshares and long term care insurance should be avoided. But once someone gets suckered into either they will valiantly try to put lipstick on the pig.
LOL. :beer
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by mptfan »

fetch5482 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:05 am Does anyone know if you need to answer the question about what's your annual salary during the presentation?
I know. You do not have to answer anything. This is still a free country, and you are not required to answer any questions or say anything.
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

safari wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:50 pm I would just be honest and tell the sales person that we are only there because of the free vacation and that we won't be buying any timeshares regardless of what they say in the presentation, so they shouldn't waste any time on us. If they keep on pressing, I'd be firm in saying "no, absolutely not, my mind is set, no matter what you say or do" while staying polite.
DW and I used to go to an island once a year and we'd always go to at least one timeshare give-away presentation. The first thing to know is that when they say that the presentation will be 90 minutes, that's a lie. Expect it to be several hours. Next, when the sales person tells you after you make it quite clear after the 2 hours that you have no intention of buying anything and they tell you "Well, then you really should tell us up front", that will make them more angry than anything you say. We did exactly that in St Thomas before even getting inside with the sales person. My answer to "If I could show you a way to vacation for less than you could possibly pay otherwise, would you be interested?". I answered "no". He stopped in his tracks and told us to wait there. The "prize" for this time share was a restaurant certificate and cab fare. He came back with the restaurant certificate and $10 in change. I sort of chuckled because change is fine with me. He commented that "We do this for a living and you're wasting my time". I responded that if that's the case, then at the airport, your place should stop handing out these brochures. I showed him the brochure that in HUGE letters blasted that we could get Prizes, Prizes, Prizes for (now tiny print) attending a 90 minute timeshare presentation.

All that said, we've received a number of restaurant certificates, a cool speed boat ride around St Maartin and more restaurant certificates over the years.

My parents actually bought about 12 weeks at Costa Linda in Aruba, some from the developer and later on the secondary market. After my dad passed, my mom rented out a number of weeks while carefully selling the rest. Neither my sister or I had any interest even though we enjoyed going there. This was an unusual case where time shares did fine financially. They loved going and would go after tax season ended (family owned tax preparation business) so would be there for 5 or 6 weeks and then a few other times during the year. Don't use their example for other timeshares. Most are huge rip offs and you can find them on the secondary market for $1.
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by SuzBanyan »

smitcat wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:27 am
teCh0010 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:43 pm Disney Vacation Club with the ability to rent your points out (and real demand there keeping point rentals at or ahead of maintenance) and a robust secondary market seems to be one of the only points based time shares that has actual value.
Yup - not a fan of timeshares but the Disney stuff has done very well over the years.
We bought at Disney starting in 2005 and have been happy as owners. Easy to use if you can plan ahead (7 to 11 months out is best) and easy to rent to others if you need to. Resale value has increased over time which meant that we would have capital gains if we sold. We are celebrating my Dad’s 94th birthday at a 3 bedroom at Grand Californian. After renting out some of my points, my unreimbursed dues for the 4 night stay are under $300.

In contrast, my Dad has a timeshare with Diamond Resort (which I think was recently bought by Hilton). He still likes the resort on Kauai but pays more in annual fees than it costs to book the resort through Expedia. The value of the TS is $0. We are debating between paying $1000 or more (plus the current annual dues) for the resort to buy it back or just default on the annual fees. I have advised every family member that under no circumstances should action be taken after my Dad’s death that would confirm a transfer to his heirs.
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Chip Munk
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by Chip Munk »

SuzBanyan wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 11:39 am
smitcat wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:27 am
teCh0010 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:43 pm Disney Vacation Club with the ability to rent your points out (and real demand there keeping point rentals at or ahead of maintenance) and a robust secondary market seems to be one of the only points based time shares that has actual value.
Yup - not a fan of timeshares but the Disney stuff has done very well over the years.
We bought at Disney starting in 2005 and have been happy as owners. Easy to use if you can plan ahead (7 to 11 months out is best) and easy to rent to others if you need to. Resale value has increased over time which meant that we would have capital gains if we sold. We are celebrating my Dad’s 94th birthday at a 3 bedroom at Grand Californian. After renting out some of my points, my unreimbursed dues for the 4 night stay are under $300.
In case you aren't already aware, amounts you've paid over the years for Capital Reserves increase your basis, reducing your gain on the sale. You can find the Capital Reserves per point going back to 2008 or so depending on the resort on various websites if you didn't save old dues statements or budget booklets over the years. Dues statements back to 2014 can be downloaded from your online account.

I've started tracking the Capital Reserves I've paid in a spreadsheet just in case I decide to sell at some point and my contracts continue to be worth more than I paid. With enough historical Capital Reserves data, I expect I can eliminate any gain on the sale.
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by Panky »

Gardener wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:13 am I am not a fan of timeshares and would never purchase one.

I will say My parents have a couple of weeks and absolutely love it and truthfully the deal they have doesn’t sound bad at all.
I am of the same opinion.
I suspect timeshares were a better deal in the past, which is why people talk about their parents and grandparents having a good one.

In my parents case, they bought a timeshare on the primary market in Maui, did well with it, and then bought several additional weeks of time on the secondary market (for dimes on the dollar compared to the primary market).

My understanding is, due to a (now closed) loophole in the contract for their first purchase, they have much more scheduling flexibility for the secondary market units than their peers would have, since the points are fungible such that they can be treated like the primary market ones. (Otherwise you are not able to book as far ahead of time, or other odd limitations which they put in place to try to get primary market sales to maximize time share companies revenue.)
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fetch5482
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by fetch5482 »

Has anyone here attended a presentation from Royal Elite Vacation club? If you have any tips on what to expect during our upcoming trip to a Sandos resort in Mexico, it will be much appreciated.
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smitcat
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by smitcat »

SuzBanyan wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 11:39 am
smitcat wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:27 am
teCh0010 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:43 pm Disney Vacation Club with the ability to rent your points out (and real demand there keeping point rentals at or ahead of maintenance) and a robust secondary market seems to be one of the only points based time shares that has actual value.
Yup - not a fan of timeshares but the Disney stuff has done very well over the years.
We bought at Disney starting in 2005 and have been happy as owners. Easy to use if you can plan ahead (7 to 11 months out is best) and easy to rent to others if you need to. Resale value has increased over time which meant that we would have capital gains if we sold. We are celebrating my Dad’s 94th birthday at a 3 bedroom at Grand Californian. After renting out some of my points, my unreimbursed dues for the 4 night stay are under $300.

In contrast, my Dad has a timeshare with Diamond Resort (which I think was recently bought by Hilton). He still likes the resort on Kauai but pays more in annual fees than it costs to book the resort through Expedia. The value of the TS is $0. We are debating between paying $1000 or more (plus the current annual dues) for the resort to buy it back or just default on the annual fees. I have advised every family member that under no circumstances should action be taken after my Dad’s death that would confirm a transfer to his heirs.
Agreed that the Disney timeshares have been mostly a winner however you figure them out over time - we sold ours a while back and were similarly ahead.
The timeshares we inherited were not financially fit as a whole, but we kept for a few years, and it worked OK on a 'free' basis to us before letting them lapse.
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Re: Last Week Tonight on timeshares

Post by uaeebs86 »

smitcat wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 2:43 pm
SuzBanyan wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 11:39 am
smitcat wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:27 am
teCh0010 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:43 pm Disney Vacation Club with the ability to rent your points out (and real demand there keeping point rentals at or ahead of maintenance) and a robust secondary market seems to be one of the only points based time shares that has actual value.
Yup - not a fan of timeshares but the Disney stuff has done very well over the years.
We bought at Disney starting in 2005 and have been happy as owners. Easy to use if you can plan ahead (7 to 11 months out is best) and easy to rent to others if you need to. Resale value has increased over time which meant that we would have capital gains if we sold. We are celebrating my Dad’s 94th birthday at a 3 bedroom at Grand Californian. After renting out some of my points, my unreimbursed dues for the 4 night stay are under $300.

In contrast, my Dad has a timeshare with Diamond Resort (which I think was recently bought by Hilton). He still likes the resort on Kauai but pays more in annual fees than it costs to book the resort through Expedia. The value of the TS is $0. We are debating between paying $1000 or more (plus the current annual dues) for the resort to buy it back or just default on the annual fees. I have advised every family member that under no circumstances should action be taken after my Dad’s death that would confirm a transfer to his heirs.
Agreed that the Disney timeshares have been mostly a winner however you figure them out over time - we sold ours a while back and were similarly ahead.
The timeshares we inherited were not financially fit as a whole, but we kept for a few years, and it worked OK on a 'free' basis to us before letting them lapse.


Did you just quit paying the maintenance fees? Or did they take it back? Did you get charged any fees?
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