Vanguard PAS: Should I keep it or do the work myself? Portfolio allocations included.
Vanguard PAS: Should I keep it or do the work myself? Portfolio allocations included.
Hello Bogleheads,
First off, appreciate this community a lot. I started on my investing journey with some guidance and bought Vanguard funds based on advice from a trusted friend. I started using PAS because I didn't know enough to choose which index funds to buy when, etc. Now I've done some reading and learning over several years and feel much more financially astute. I've had this pinging around in my mind for a bit, and thought to ask this community to give me some feedback. Whatever advice is shared will not determine my next steps but I do wish to get some alternative perspectives as I mull over what to do.
Here's my dilemma: Should I simplify this to a 2 to 3 fund portfolio and self-manage? Remember I started with my own funds and then the advisor added more (honestly can't remember what I had chosen myself years ago). What's shown below feels messy to me.
Rollover IRA - $127k (Shares listed in far right)
VEA VANGUARD FTSE DEVELOPED MKTS ETF 548.806
VFIDX Vanguard Intermediate-Term Investment-Grade Fund Admiral Shares 918.559
VOO VANGUARD S&P 500 INDEX ETF 47.447
VFSUX Vanguard Short-Term Investment-Grade Fund Admiral Shares 507.702
BND VANGUARD TOTAL BOND MARKET ETF 161.178
BNDX VANGUARD TOTAL INTL BOND INDEX ETF 210.578
VTI VANGUARD TOTAL STOCK MARKET ETF 255.158
Roth IRA - $53k
VMFXX Vanguard Federal Money Market Fund 0.01
VEA VANGUARD FTSE DEVELOPED MKTS ETF 443.155
VWO VANGUARD FTSE EMERGING MARKETS ETF 1.073
VFSUX Vanguard Short-Term Investment-Grade Fund Admiral Shares 28.292
BND VANGUARD TOTAL BOND MARKET ETF 1.038
VXUS VANGUARD TOTAL INTL STOCK INDEX FUND ETF 589.722
VTI VANGUARD TOTAL STOCK MARKET ETF 10.162
Brokerage - $65k
VEMAX Vanguard Emerging Markets Stock Index Fund Admiral Shares 221.869
VMFXX Vanguard Federal Money Market Fund 267.01
VEA VANGUARD FTSE DEVELOPED MKTS ETF 45
VWO VANGUARD FTSE EMERGING MARKETS ETF 8
BIV VANGUARD INTERMEDIATE TERM BOND ETF 1
VFIDX Vanguard Intermediate-Term Investment-Grade Fund Admiral Shares 52.012
BLV VANGUARD LONG TERM BOND INDEX ETF 2
VIMAX Vanguard Mid-Cap Index Fund Admiral Shares 42.37
VOO VANGUARD S&P 500 INDEX ETF 86
VFSUX Vanguard Short-Term Investment-Grade Fund Admiral Shares 23.965
VSMAX Vanguard Small-Cap Index Fund Admiral Shares 97.585
BND VANGUARD TOTAL BOND MARKET ETF 7
BNDX VANGUARD TOTAL INTL BOND INDEX ETF 23
VXUS VANGUARD TOTAL INTL STOCK INDEX FUND ETF 19
VTI VANGUARD TOTAL STOCK MARKET ETF 7
What would you do with this? Here are my questions:
Should I leave it alone and let PAS keep doing their part?
Should I leave it alone and close PAS and invest based on what I think I can do with what they set up?
Should I sell it all (piece by piece or all at once?) and buy shares of the lazy portfolio I really want? I'm thinking VTSAX & BND, or something similar.
Alternate ideas?
Thanks for taking the time to consider and provide your perspective. I greatly appreciate it.
First off, appreciate this community a lot. I started on my investing journey with some guidance and bought Vanguard funds based on advice from a trusted friend. I started using PAS because I didn't know enough to choose which index funds to buy when, etc. Now I've done some reading and learning over several years and feel much more financially astute. I've had this pinging around in my mind for a bit, and thought to ask this community to give me some feedback. Whatever advice is shared will not determine my next steps but I do wish to get some alternative perspectives as I mull over what to do.
Here's my dilemma: Should I simplify this to a 2 to 3 fund portfolio and self-manage? Remember I started with my own funds and then the advisor added more (honestly can't remember what I had chosen myself years ago). What's shown below feels messy to me.
Rollover IRA - $127k (Shares listed in far right)
VEA VANGUARD FTSE DEVELOPED MKTS ETF 548.806
VFIDX Vanguard Intermediate-Term Investment-Grade Fund Admiral Shares 918.559
VOO VANGUARD S&P 500 INDEX ETF 47.447
VFSUX Vanguard Short-Term Investment-Grade Fund Admiral Shares 507.702
BND VANGUARD TOTAL BOND MARKET ETF 161.178
BNDX VANGUARD TOTAL INTL BOND INDEX ETF 210.578
VTI VANGUARD TOTAL STOCK MARKET ETF 255.158
Roth IRA - $53k
VMFXX Vanguard Federal Money Market Fund 0.01
VEA VANGUARD FTSE DEVELOPED MKTS ETF 443.155
VWO VANGUARD FTSE EMERGING MARKETS ETF 1.073
VFSUX Vanguard Short-Term Investment-Grade Fund Admiral Shares 28.292
BND VANGUARD TOTAL BOND MARKET ETF 1.038
VXUS VANGUARD TOTAL INTL STOCK INDEX FUND ETF 589.722
VTI VANGUARD TOTAL STOCK MARKET ETF 10.162
Brokerage - $65k
VEMAX Vanguard Emerging Markets Stock Index Fund Admiral Shares 221.869
VMFXX Vanguard Federal Money Market Fund 267.01
VEA VANGUARD FTSE DEVELOPED MKTS ETF 45
VWO VANGUARD FTSE EMERGING MARKETS ETF 8
BIV VANGUARD INTERMEDIATE TERM BOND ETF 1
VFIDX Vanguard Intermediate-Term Investment-Grade Fund Admiral Shares 52.012
BLV VANGUARD LONG TERM BOND INDEX ETF 2
VIMAX Vanguard Mid-Cap Index Fund Admiral Shares 42.37
VOO VANGUARD S&P 500 INDEX ETF 86
VFSUX Vanguard Short-Term Investment-Grade Fund Admiral Shares 23.965
VSMAX Vanguard Small-Cap Index Fund Admiral Shares 97.585
BND VANGUARD TOTAL BOND MARKET ETF 7
BNDX VANGUARD TOTAL INTL BOND INDEX ETF 23
VXUS VANGUARD TOTAL INTL STOCK INDEX FUND ETF 19
VTI VANGUARD TOTAL STOCK MARKET ETF 7
What would you do with this? Here are my questions:
Should I leave it alone and let PAS keep doing their part?
Should I leave it alone and close PAS and invest based on what I think I can do with what they set up?
Should I sell it all (piece by piece or all at once?) and buy shares of the lazy portfolio I really want? I'm thinking VTSAX & BND, or something similar.
Alternate ideas?
Thanks for taking the time to consider and provide your perspective. I greatly appreciate it.
Last edited by 10b-8 on Tue Mar 21, 2023 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Vanguard PAS: Should I keep it or do the work myself? Portfolio allocations included.
something that stands out is you have stocks and bonds in all three accounts but when possible it's preferable to have stocks in taxable and Roth and bonds in tax deferred (Rollover IRA). This is called tax efficient portfolio allocation or fund placement (see more here: https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Tax-eff ... _placement).
There is no tax implication to make some changes in Roth and Rollover, but you would need to be careful with regards to selling bonds in taxable in the event there are capital gains as a result (depends on how long ago you bought those).
Also there's a lot of funds and i'm not sure why you or they thought it was better to break things up instead of just owning total index funds. Again simplifying the portfolio is simple to do with Rollover and Roth (no tax implications) but you have to be more careful with the taxable/brokerage account so you don't inadvertantly create cap gains.
if there are any cap losses in taxable it could be an advantageous time to sell those to simply and take the cap losses to reduce your tax bill now and into the future depending on if you have carryover losses as a result.
in order to help you more we'd really need to know the size differences of the portfolios and what your desired allocation between stocks and bonds is so we can help you simply/redisign the portfolio and make it tax efficient (so tax inefficient stuff in Rollover and tax efficient stuff in Roth and taxable). It may or may not be possible to get enough bonds into tax deferred (Rollover IRA) and stocks in Roth and brokerage, we simply don't know until we understand the amounts in each of the three. I know you put the number of shares in each of the funds, but that doesn't really tell us how much money you have in each fund if we don't know the price per fund because we only have half the data there.
Please edit your post to answer these issues according to Asking Portfolio Questions
There is no tax implication to make some changes in Roth and Rollover, but you would need to be careful with regards to selling bonds in taxable in the event there are capital gains as a result (depends on how long ago you bought those).
Also there's a lot of funds and i'm not sure why you or they thought it was better to break things up instead of just owning total index funds. Again simplifying the portfolio is simple to do with Rollover and Roth (no tax implications) but you have to be more careful with the taxable/brokerage account so you don't inadvertantly create cap gains.
if there are any cap losses in taxable it could be an advantageous time to sell those to simply and take the cap losses to reduce your tax bill now and into the future depending on if you have carryover losses as a result.
in order to help you more we'd really need to know the size differences of the portfolios and what your desired allocation between stocks and bonds is so we can help you simply/redisign the portfolio and make it tax efficient (so tax inefficient stuff in Rollover and tax efficient stuff in Roth and taxable). It may or may not be possible to get enough bonds into tax deferred (Rollover IRA) and stocks in Roth and brokerage, we simply don't know until we understand the amounts in each of the three. I know you put the number of shares in each of the funds, but that doesn't really tell us how much money you have in each fund if we don't know the price per fund because we only have half the data there.
Please edit your post to answer these issues according to Asking Portfolio Questions
It's hard to accept the truth when the lies were exactly what you wanted to hear. Investing is simple, but not easy. Buy, hold & rebalance low cost index funds & manage taxable events. Asking Portfolio Questions |
Re: Vanguard PAS: Should I keep it or do the work myself? Portfolio allocations included.
It is not hard to DIY. You probably should give it a try. Personally, I would get rid of the bonds in the taxable if not a lot of taxes, and also hold VTI instead of multiple funds. I would probably just hold BND in the IRA and not hold bonds in the Roth or taxable. International probably could be cut down also.
- dogagility
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Re: Vanguard PAS: Should I keep it or do the work myself? Portfolio allocations included.
You're correct that your portfolio is a mess relative to what most Bogleheads would choose.
You could, but that wouldn't be my recommendation. Since you've started to post on Bogleheads, I would recommend DIY investing. Save yourself the 0.3% fee.Should I leave it alone and let PAS keep doing their part?
Start here https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Getting_started
Ask questions of the forum. Select a simple, diversified, low cost portfolio.
I suggest you close PAS. The main reason to keep using PAS would be if you're prone to panic selling when your portfolio value drops. Hopefully, they could persuad you to not do this.Should I leave it alone and close PAS and invest based on what I think I can do with what they set up?
For your IRAs, there are no tax consequences by switching your investment choice to a more simple portfolio.
For your taxable account, you will need to consider the tax implications of the gains/losses in those funds.
For your IRAs, yes, sell immediately and simplify. VTSAX and BND are fine choices. You might want to add an international stock index fund to these two funds.Should I sell it all (piece by piece or all at once?) and buy shares of the lazy portfolio I really want? I'm thinking VTSAX & BND, or something similar.
For your taxable, none of those funds are poor choices on their own. Index funds, low fees. Just too many for my tastes. I'd sell after considering tax implications of gains/losses.
I like to know why I've selected funds in my portfolio. Your taxable is truly a mess. Why three bond funds of different durations? Why total stock market, SP500, midcap, and smallcap funds? I see no benefit to this... just more effort to keep track of an asset allocation as the markets gyrate over time. I suspect if you asked PAS why your taxable portfolio is invested this way, they would stammer and spout some gobbledygook.
Make sure you check out my list of certifications. The list is short, and there aren't any. - Eric 0. from SMA
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Re: Vanguard PAS: Should I keep it or do the work myself? Portfolio allocations included.
Yes, it is a mess! I think your proposal to move to a simple 3-fund portfoilo is a good one, and I don't see any value add for what PAS is doing. Ineffecient tax placement of bond funds, etc.
One alternate idea is to sell it all and move to a 1-fund target date fund across all of your holdings. PAS mirrors what Vanguard is doing with the target date fund selection at 3 times the cost.
Re: Vanguard PAS: Should I keep it or do the work myself? Portfolio allocations included.
No way would I hold an array of funds like that. VPAS should not do that to someone either. This does not mean the ultimate distribution of assets has anything wrong with it other than pointless complexity. Therefore you could continue to pay 0.3% and stay there if for some reason you like letting someone else run things.
The one dilemma is with taxable investing. If you stay with those investments then over time they may accrue sufficient unrealized gains that it is expensive in tax costs to sell and change things around. You may be able to do that now at minimum costs or even harvesting tax losses to your advantage.
How confident you are in understanding what to hold and how to hold it and to continue to manage on your own is for you to evaluate. Most people here would do this on their own and it isn't hard, but you are your own person.
The one dilemma is with taxable investing. If you stay with those investments then over time they may accrue sufficient unrealized gains that it is expensive in tax costs to sell and change things around. You may be able to do that now at minimum costs or even harvesting tax losses to your advantage.
How confident you are in understanding what to hold and how to hold it and to continue to manage on your own is for you to evaluate. Most people here would do this on their own and it isn't hard, but you are your own person.
Re: Vanguard PAS: Should I keep it or do the work myself? Portfolio allocations included.
Welcome to the forum.
Yes, it is messy. And not the usual we see from Vanguard's PAS. Have there been a number of different advisors or just one over the years?
I'm going to guess that your advisor has been very aggressive at tax loss harvesting and that is one reason why you have ended up with so many funds.
If you are now willing and able, I see no reason you should not take over portfolio management yourself. This could be simplified considerably and with the market down, there may not even be a large tax cost to do it. Some time and effort would be involved. Are you interested?
Yes, it is messy. And not the usual we see from Vanguard's PAS. Have there been a number of different advisors or just one over the years?
I'm going to guess that your advisor has been very aggressive at tax loss harvesting and that is one reason why you have ended up with so many funds.
If you are now willing and able, I see no reason you should not take over portfolio management yourself. This could be simplified considerably and with the market down, there may not even be a large tax cost to do it. Some time and effort would be involved. Are you interested?
Link to Asking Portfolio Questions
Re: Vanguard PAS: Should I keep it or do the work myself? Portfolio allocations included.
Thank you, all! I feel well versed enough to do this myself -- and do some more learning along the way -- and agree with everyone's thoughts that it is messy. It has been a series of advisors over time, not one assigned, which is what I signed up for in a sense. I can only hope they're focused on maximizing tax efficiency with so many holdings but I'm not sure that's the case at this point. I'll spend the coming weeks digging and doing the work to get things cleaned up. Thank you again, and I'll be back with more questions in the future.
- retired@50
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Re: Vanguard PAS: Should I keep it or do the work myself? Portfolio allocations included.
If you intend to sell anything in your taxable brokerage account you may benefit from reading the wiki page on paying a tax cost to switch funds. The tax impact can be either large or small, depending on whether or not the investments show losses or gains.10b-8 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 2:19 pm Thank you, all! I feel well versed enough to do this myself -- and do some more learning along the way -- and agree with everyone's thoughts that it is messy. It has been a series of advisors over time, not one assigned, which is what I signed up for in a sense. I can only hope they're focused on maximizing tax efficiency with so many holdings but I'm not sure that's the case at this point. I'll spend the coming weeks digging and doing the work to get things cleaned up. Thank you again, and I'll be back with more questions in the future.
See link: https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Paying_ ... itch_funds
Regards,
If liberty means anything at all it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. -George Orwell
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Re: Vanguard PAS: Should I keep it or do the work myself? Portfolio allocations included.
Sigh.
I've watched people's portfolios chosen by PAS over the years and they clearly have been given the thief financial sales clown training. Put as many funds as possible to make the client think that they could never possibly do this themselves. The entire strategy here is a 4 fund but broken up to give you more funds for no reason. Give them a few years and the high school sophomores setting up these portfolios will be pushing variable annuities and private equity.
The 4 PAS funds are:
US total market
US bonds
International total market
International bonds
But they now give you a large, mid, emerging instead of just a total. Then they give you a total. Or several totals.
I see no reason why you couldn't have as your only funds:
VTI
BND
VEA
That gets you great diversification. Huge volume ETFs. Low cost. Low complexity. High simplicity.
I've watched people's portfolios chosen by PAS over the years and they clearly have been given the thief financial sales clown training. Put as many funds as possible to make the client think that they could never possibly do this themselves. The entire strategy here is a 4 fund but broken up to give you more funds for no reason. Give them a few years and the high school sophomores setting up these portfolios will be pushing variable annuities and private equity.
The 4 PAS funds are:
US total market
US bonds
International total market
International bonds
But they now give you a large, mid, emerging instead of just a total. Then they give you a total. Or several totals.
I see no reason why you couldn't have as your only funds:
VTI
BND
VEA
That gets you great diversification. Huge volume ETFs. Low cost. Low complexity. High simplicity.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid
Re: Vanguard PAS: Should I keep it or do the work myself? Portfolio allocations included.
In general, I dislike PAS, I don't view this having advantage over a 3-fund portfolio. If one is not willing to do any kind of portfolio management, then I would rather invest in a target-date or an asset allocation fund. I understand that Vanguard PAS now includes TLH. At first glance, this is a plus. However, this only "works" if one has everything at Vanguard. If one has a management/robo-advisor account with another firm, one may create wash sale unknowingly.
Re: Vanguard PAS: Should I keep it or do the work myself? Portfolio allocations included.
I updated the original post with amounts, per u/arcticpineapplecorp. 's request. I hope this helps.
Additionally, I appreciate the additional thoughts after I initially replied to the first few comments. Simplification is my goal, so the recent comment posted that simplified holdings to three funds made sense.
One more question: would you keep the same holdings in all three accounts or distribute them in a specific way?
Additionally, I appreciate the additional thoughts after I initially replied to the first few comments. Simplification is my goal, so the recent comment posted that simplified holdings to three funds made sense.
One more question: would you keep the same holdings in all three accounts or distribute them in a specific way?
- retired@50
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Re: Vanguard PAS: Should I keep it or do the work myself? Portfolio allocations included.
This can be done in a variety of ways, but if you really seek the most tax-efficient solution, then you could follow the guidance in the tax efficient fund placement wiki page.
If you find that untenable or inconvenient for any reason, then mirroring accounts, with similar allocations in each account, is typically considered "good enough".
Regards,
If liberty means anything at all it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. -George Orwell
Re: Vanguard PAS: Should I keep it or do the work myself? Portfolio allocations included.
Vanguard's PAS is the only advisory firm that I'm comfortable recommending and this portfolio makes me wonder if that comfort is misplaced.
I have to say I'm completely boggled by this portfolio. The number of funds is just astounding for Vanguard's PAS - especially putting a small sum like $65k into 15 funds. And what is the point of having 1 or two shares of a bond fund?
Don't take this comment wrong though - they don't have you invested in anything "bad" or "expensive". They have just used way too many funds and the result is unnecessarily complex and confusing. The funds don't care, but it seems that you do.
If you decide to do this yourself, reducing the number of funds in the rollover IRA and Roth IRA can be done with a few mouse clicks and a few funds. The taxable account will take a little bit of work to unwind without triggering taxes. The place to start would be to determine the unrealized gain or loss in each of the funds in the taxable account.
If you should ask your advisor why the portfolio is so complex, maybe you could tell us why they have done it this way.
I have to say I'm completely boggled by this portfolio. The number of funds is just astounding for Vanguard's PAS - especially putting a small sum like $65k into 15 funds. And what is the point of having 1 or two shares of a bond fund?
Don't take this comment wrong though - they don't have you invested in anything "bad" or "expensive". They have just used way too many funds and the result is unnecessarily complex and confusing. The funds don't care, but it seems that you do.
If you decide to do this yourself, reducing the number of funds in the rollover IRA and Roth IRA can be done with a few mouse clicks and a few funds. The taxable account will take a little bit of work to unwind without triggering taxes. The place to start would be to determine the unrealized gain or loss in each of the funds in the taxable account.
If you should ask your advisor why the portfolio is so complex, maybe you could tell us why they have done it this way.
Link to Asking Portfolio Questions
Re: Vanguard PAS: Should I keep it or do the work myself? Portfolio allocations included.
I'm not sure what we can reliably conclude about PAS based on just the OP's portfolio -- it contains not only what PAS suggested but also the OPs own choices. Not trying to defend PAS, just that it's not clear what control/responsibility they have over the whole portfolio.
But anyway I agree the portfolio is too complicated as is. The 3 fund or 4 fund portfolios are great choices.
Even better for someone who prefers simplicity, I'd go with:
1) only stock funds in the taxable account 2) in the IRS accounts, a combination of Target Date or LifeStrategy funds to reach the OP's desired asset allocation.
But anyway I agree the portfolio is too complicated as is. The 3 fund or 4 fund portfolios are great choices.
Even better for someone who prefers simplicity, I'd go with:
1) only stock funds in the taxable account 2) in the IRS accounts, a combination of Target Date or LifeStrategy funds to reach the OP's desired asset allocation.
Re: Vanguard PAS: Should I keep it or do the work myself? Portfolio allocations included.
Did the PAS advisor actually buy all these funds on your behalf, or is this a mix of your doing and their doing? That doesn’t really inspire confidence.
It’s pretty wild how many tiny, useless allocations there are. Other posters have good advice on how to clean it up.
It’s pretty wild how many tiny, useless allocations there are. Other posters have good advice on how to clean it up.
Crom laughs at your Four Winds
Re: Vanguard PAS: Should I keep it or do the work myself? Portfolio allocations included.
The duplication within the Rollover and Roth accounts is confusing. I am wondering if there were more discussions with the PAS advisor that led to these choices? Two examples: Both VTI and VOO in rollover, and VXUS plus VEA and VWO in Roth. There's no tax consequence for consolidating those.
You are using the PAS advisor (with a person) not the Digital Advisor (robo-visor, no person) correct?
I've been an engineer and IT problem solver for 40 years; when I see something strange my first response is to start asking why?
You are using the PAS advisor (with a person) not the Digital Advisor (robo-visor, no person) correct?
I've been an engineer and IT problem solver for 40 years; when I see something strange my first response is to start asking why?
- bertilak
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Re: Vanguard PAS: Should I keep it or do the work myself? Portfolio allocations included.
You say you started PAS with an existing allocation. It could be PAS took that into consideration and made additions and changes in a way to minimize tax losses. In other words, you are where you are due to history and tax considerations. Have you talked to your PAS contact to ask about this?
May neither drought nor rain nor blizzard disturb the joy juice in your gizzard. -- Squire Omar Barker (aka S.O.B.), the Cowboy Poet
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Re: Vanguard PAS: Should I keep it or do the work myself? Portfolio allocations included.
Just a guess. Did PAS say you have to sell all the funds and start over and did you say no? So then they did the best they could with their choices?
Re: Vanguard PAS: Should I keep it or do the work myself? Portfolio allocations included.
I would use inflation protected bonds instead of nominal bonds as is in BND. There is not any good reason to hold 20-30% of corporate bonds which are also in BND. You could use vanguard's short term and/or intermeidate infaltion protected bond funds. You could also just buy TIPS from the Treasury department in your brokerage account.
I would sell all of funds (except if the taxes due might outweigh my desire for simplicity) and use a total domestic stock fund and toal international stock fund.
I would sell all of funds (except if the taxes due might outweigh my desire for simplicity) and use a total domestic stock fund and toal international stock fund.
Re: Vanguard PAS: Should I keep it or do the work myself? Portfolio allocations included.
I have an appointment with the advisor on Monday morning to ask this. I don't get why it's so many either. I'll be sure to ask about unrealized gain or loss in the taxable account. Thanks for your comment!retiredjg wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:09 am Vanguard's PAS is the only advisory firm that I'm comfortable recommending and this portfolio makes me wonder if that comfort is misplaced.
I have to say I'm completely boggled by this portfolio. The number of funds is just astounding for Vanguard's PAS - especially putting a small sum like $65k into 15 funds. And what is the point of having 1 or two shares of a bond fund?
Don't take this comment wrong though - they don't have you invested in anything "bad" or "expensive". They have just used way too many funds and the result is unnecessarily complex and confusing. The funds don't care, but it seems that you do.
If you decide to do this yourself, reducing the number of funds in the rollover IRA and Roth IRA can be done with a few mouse clicks and a few funds. The taxable account will take a little bit of work to unwind without triggering taxes. The place to start would be to determine the unrealized gain or loss in each of the funds in the taxable account.
If you should ask your advisor why the portfolio is so complex, maybe you could tell us why they have done it this way.
Re: Vanguard PAS: Should I keep it or do the work myself? Portfolio allocations included.
They have full control of these three accounts I listed, which is why I am in this space of questioning the PAS value. If I can simplify things enough to self-manage, I would prefer to do that.sycamore wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:44 am I'm not sure what we can reliably conclude about PAS based on just the OP's portfolio -- it contains not only what PAS suggested but also the OPs own choices. Not trying to defend PAS, just that it's not clear what control/responsibility they have over the whole portfolio.
But anyway I agree the portfolio is too complicated as is. The 3 fund or 4 fund portfolios are great choices.
Even better for someone who prefers simplicity, I'd go with:
1) only stock funds in the taxable account 2) in the IRS accounts, a combination of Target Date or LifeStrategy funds to reach the OP's desired asset allocation.
Re: Vanguard PAS: Should I keep it or do the work myself? Portfolio allocations included.
It certainly doesn't inspire confidence! I had maybe one or two funds in each and then I remember them adding on, but not just selling what I had and buying a simple portfolio. This is exactly why I'm thinking about terminating PAS, I just want to do it once I have a clear handle on the tax implications in the taxable account, and I finalize my allocations for the Roth and Rollover IRA.muffins14 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:50 am Did the PAS advisor actually buy all these funds on your behalf, or is this a mix of your doing and their doing? That doesn’t really inspire confidence.
It’s pretty wild how many tiny, useless allocations there are. Other posters have good advice on how to clean it up.
Re: Vanguard PAS: Should I keep it or do the work myself? Portfolio allocations included.
It is confusing, I agree. I'm using the PAS advisor and have a call with them on Monday. If you were to choose a simpler portfolio within those two accounts, how would you allocate? Just curious.stan1 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:52 am The duplication within the Rollover and Roth accounts is confusing. I am wondering if there were more discussions with the PAS advisor that led to these choices? Two examples: Both VTI and VOO in rollover, and VXUS plus VEA and VWO in Roth. There's no tax consequence for consolidating those.
You are using the PAS advisor (with a person) not the Digital Advisor (robo-visor, no person) correct?
I've been an engineer and IT problem solver for 40 years; when I see something strange my first response is to start asking why?
Re: Vanguard PAS: Should I keep it or do the work myself? Portfolio allocations included.
I have a call on Monday with them, so I'll ask about this. I didn't have much of anything in the taxable, but I do understand in that one why they would hold onto what was there for tax purposes.bertilak wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:14 am You say you started PAS with an existing allocation. It could be PAS took that into consideration and made additions and changes in a way to minimize tax losses. In other words, you are where you are due to history and tax considerations. Have you talked to your PAS contact to ask about this?
Re: Vanguard PAS: Should I keep it or do the work myself? Portfolio allocations included.
Nope, not at all. I was fine with them selling everything and starting over, and I had way less knowledge then than I do now.coffeeblack wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:22 am Just a guess. Did PAS say you have to sell all the funds and start over and did you say no? So then they did the best they could with their choices?
Re: Vanguard PAS: Should I keep it or do the work myself? Portfolio allocations included.
I'm really enjoying all of the comments, and thank you all for your thoughts.
For the Rollover, would this make sense?
VTSAX 65%
VTWAX 25% (or VTIAX)
VBTLX 10%
And for the Roth, would I do the same or something different? I'm trying to understand whether I should have the same funds in both accounts or if I should split it differently. Thanks to all who share perspectives!
For the Rollover, would this make sense?
VTSAX 65%
VTWAX 25% (or VTIAX)
VBTLX 10%
And for the Roth, would I do the same or something different? I'm trying to understand whether I should have the same funds in both accounts or if I should split it differently. Thanks to all who share perspectives!
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Re: Vanguard PAS: Should I keep it or do the work myself? Portfolio allocations included.
If you want to really simplify it, you could achieve something very close to that with one or two all in funds from Vanguard lifestrategy and/or Ishares and no PAS fees.10b-8 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:27 pm I'm really enjoying all of the comments, and thank you all for your thoughts.
For the Rollover, would this make sense?
VTSAX 65%
VTWAX 25% (or VTIAX)
VBTLX 10%
And for the Roth, would I do the same or something different? I'm trying to understand whether I should have the same funds in both accounts or if I should split it differently. Thanks to all who share perspectives!
Re: Vanguard PAS: Should I keep it or do the work myself? Portfolio allocations included.
You need to decide what you want in your portfolio. What percent US stocks? Foreign stocks? Bonds? Once you decide and tell us that, plugging in the funds takes about 5 minutes.10b-8 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:27 pm I'm really enjoying all of the comments, and thank you all for your thoughts.
For the Rollover, would this make sense?
VTSAX 65%
VTWAX 25% (or VTIAX)
VBTLX 10%
And for the Roth, would I do the same or something different? I'm trying to understand whether I should have the same funds in both accounts or if I should split it differently. Thanks to all who share perspectives!
But we don't know things like your tax bracket? Married or single? Age? Other accounts (like one at work)? The tax cost of fixing the taxable account?
All of those things factor into this decision and we don't know any of it.
But yes, if you are willing to learn a little bit about investing, there is absolutely no reason you could not handle this portfolio.
Link to Asking Portfolio Questions
Re: Vanguard PAS: Should I keep it or do the work myself? Portfolio allocations included.
Hi, sorry for the delay in my response. Thanks for asking these questions. Here are some answers:retiredjg wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 5:06 pmYou need to decide what you want in your portfolio. What percent US stocks? Foreign stocks? Bonds? Once you decide and tell us that, plugging in the funds takes about 5 minutes.10b-8 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:27 pm I'm really enjoying all of the comments, and thank you all for your thoughts.
For the Rollover, would this make sense?
VTSAX 65%
VTWAX 25% (or VTIAX)
VBTLX 10%
And for the Roth, would I do the same or something different? I'm trying to understand whether I should have the same funds in both accounts or if I should split it differently. Thanks to all who share perspectives!
But we don't know things like your tax bracket? Married or single? Age? Other accounts (like one at work)? The tax cost of fixing the taxable account?
All of those things factor into this decision and we don't know any of it.
But yes, if you are willing to learn a little bit about investing, there is absolutely no reason you could not handle this portfolio.
Percentages of stocks -- this is where I'm not sure regarding the split between US and foreign. I'd like to be 80-90% stocks and approximately 10-20% bonds. I think I want to be more heavily in US vs foreign stocks, so like 60/40 US and foreign.
I'm married and our taxable income this year was slightly under $200k. I'm 38. Maxing 401k, which has about $41k. Also putting in the max to Roth IRA. None of our retirement accounts are joint. We have one kid.
I have a call with Vanguard on Monday and want to find out the tax cost of fixing the taxable and then will have more info then.
Re: Vanguard PAS: Should I keep it or do the work myself? Portfolio allocations included.
If you want an example of what your portfolio could look like, you need to post information about your spouse's accounts as well. Once you learn to see your portfolio as an accumulation of all your accounts, the portfolio is easier to understand.
Let us know what you find out on Monday. However, I would think you can look up the unrealized gains and losses on your account without talking to the advisor.
Let us know what you find out on Monday. However, I would think you can look up the unrealized gains and losses on your account without talking to the advisor.
Link to Asking Portfolio Questions
Re: Vanguard PAS: Should I keep it or do the work myself? Portfolio allocations included.
Without revealing too much, I need to plan my retirement without my spouse. We are separated and it's unclear whether we'll reconcile, and while I completely agree it would help to see the full picture, I want to plan for myself.retiredjg wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:26 am If you want an example of what your portfolio could look like, you need to post information about your spouse's accounts as well. Once you learn to see your portfolio as an accumulation of all your accounts, the portfolio is easier to understand.
Let us know what you find out on Monday. However, I would think you can look up the unrealized gains and losses on your account without talking to the advisor.
Regarding unrealized gains and losses, where would you recommend I look those up? I don't mind doing some homework in preparation for Monday's call.
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Re: Vanguard PAS: Should I keep it or do the work myself? Portfolio allocations included.
Using the Vanguard website - go to the "My Accounts" menu -> then to "Cost Basis".
You're looking for unrealized gains or losses in your taxable account.
Regards,
If liberty means anything at all it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. -George Orwell
Re: Vanguard PAS: Should I keep it or do the work myself? Portfolio allocations included.
Here is an example of what a simple portfolio could look like.
Portfolio = $286k
Brokerage - $65k. 22.7%
22.7% Total Stock Index
401k $41k[. 14.3%
6.7% 500 index
7.6% bonds
Roth IRA - $53k 18.5%
18.5% 500 index
Rollover IRA - $127k. 44.4%
32% Total International
12.4% bonds
This is not a suggestion of what you should do and it does not take into account the cost of liquidating the taxable account. There is not enough information to make a suggestion based on those things. It also assumes that all of the accounts you have told us about are intended for retirement, not short term goals.
If/when you decide you want to manage this on your own, specific details about your situation would be needed to help you decide how to set this up.
Portfolio = $286k
Brokerage - $65k. 22.7%
22.7% Total Stock Index
401k $41k[. 14.3%
6.7% 500 index
7.6% bonds
Roth IRA - $53k 18.5%
18.5% 500 index
Rollover IRA - $127k. 44.4%
32% Total International
12.4% bonds
This is not a suggestion of what you should do and it does not take into account the cost of liquidating the taxable account. There is not enough information to make a suggestion based on those things. It also assumes that all of the accounts you have told us about are intended for retirement, not short term goals.
If/when you decide you want to manage this on your own, specific details about your situation would be needed to help you decide how to set this up.
Link to Asking Portfolio Questions
Re: Vanguard PAS: Should I keep it or do the work myself? Portfolio allocations included.
Hi again, just got off the phone with the PAS advisor. It was helpful to hear the hemming and hawing about positions, and he pointed to TLH as the reasoning behind the tiny positions in the taxable. There were many positions that were sitting at a loss so it was easy to clean those up. In fact, the advisor also agreed it wasn't ideally situated. When I additionally brought up the positions in the Rollover and Roth and even stated that those could be cleaned up to a 3 or 4 fund, after hearing me state the same thing several times that the positions could be simplified, he agreed. He's calling me again tomorrow to share what that might look like. In short, I realized that while I may not know as much as a FA, I know enough to do this myself if I continue reading and posting here. Thank you for your opinions, they've been really helpful. I'll pop back in tomorrow to share what comes of the next conversation.retiredjg wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 8:00 am Here is an example of what a simple portfolio could look like.
Portfolio = $286k
Brokerage - $65k. 22.7%
22.7% Total Stock Index
401k $41k[. 14.3%
6.7% 500 index
7.6% bonds
Roth IRA - $53k 18.5%
18.5% 500 index
Rollover IRA - $127k. 44.4%
32% Total International
12.4% bonds
This is not a suggestion of what you should do and it does not take into account the cost of liquidating the taxable account. There is not enough information to make a suggestion based on those things. It also assumes that all of the accounts you have told us about are intended for retirement, not short term goals.
If/when you decide you want to manage this on your own, specific details about your situation would be needed to help you decide how to set this up.
Re: Vanguard PAS: Should I keep it or do the work myself? Portfolio allocations included.
It will be interesting to see what the advisor suggests.
Link to Asking Portfolio Questions
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Re: Vanguard PAS: Should I keep it or do the work myself? Portfolio allocations included.
Leave PAS and do it yourself. Did PAS set that up where you're in so many different funds? It really seems over the top.
The only time I really see a case for PAS is when the other alternative is a traditional financial advisor that wants 1-2% of AUM because the person is just really scared of investing "on their own" and it's a form of training wheels.
The only time I really see a case for PAS is when the other alternative is a traditional financial advisor that wants 1-2% of AUM because the person is just really scared of investing "on their own" and it's a form of training wheels.