Is it worth it to use a realtor?

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joechristmas
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Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by joechristmas »

Hello.

My wife and I are looking to accomplish the following:

1. Move out of our home into a rental home (SFH--we have 6 in our family);
2. Sale of our current home (SFH in an area that is no longer desirable to us); and,
3. Following the close of sale on our current home, purchase and close on a new SFH.

So we have basically 3 real estate transactions that we are looking at. It will be very expensive and surely a bunch of headaches.

Is it worth it to engage a realtor before undertaking something like this? Do they actually add value?

Previous experience with realtors was poor. While they did take the time to facilitate showings, the showings aren't very helpful, and we wound up somewhere that was not a good fit for us. I just don't think the commission was earned.

Would it be better to simply fill out the paperwork to become a real estate broker myself and represent myself in these transactions?

Thank you.
Normchad
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by Normchad »

I personally think it is worthwhile.
02nz
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by 02nz »

joechristmas wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:09 pm Previous experience with realtors was poor. While they did take the time to facilitate showings, the showings aren't very helpful, and we wound up somewhere that was not a good fit for us. I just don't think the commission was earned.
That's not much detail, but it really doesn't sound like that's on the realtor. These days, you have a huge amount of information at your fingertips about neighborhoods, schools, etc. If you wound up in the wrong area, that's largely on you. That's all water under the bridge, but you need to go into the upcoming transactions with the right expectations.
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joechristmas
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by joechristmas »

02nz wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:16 pm That's not much detail, but it really doesn't sound like that's on the realtor. These days, you have a huge amount of information at your fingertips about neighborhoods, schools, etc. If you wound up in the wrong area, that's largely on you. That's all water under the bridge, but you need to go into the upcoming transactions with the right expectations.
So you recommend doing it yourself and filing for and obtaining the associated licenses instead?
adamthesmythe
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by adamthesmythe »

On the sell side, you have to find out HOW to sell a house and you must have enough time to do it. It may be difficult to convincingly market a house that you personally find unsatisfactory.

On the buy side, you need a plan to find a more suitable house in the absence of a buyer's agent.

I have never rented a house so I have no idea how it is done.

(I thought that obtaining a real estate license was a good bit more involved than filling out forms, but this may be state-dependent).
Onlineid3089
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by Onlineid3089 »

I would find value in one, but I'm also almost completely inexperienced at real estate having only ever bought one house and still live there so have never sold anything.
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lthenderson
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by lthenderson »

joechristmas wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:09 pm Is it worth it to engage a realtor before undertaking something like this? Do they actually add value?

Previous experience with realtors was poor. While they did take the time to facilitate showings, the showings aren't very helpful, and we wound up somewhere that was not a good fit for us. I just don't think the commission was earned.

Would it be better to simply fill out the paperwork to become a real estate broker myself and represent myself in these transactions?
From past experiences of trying to sell a home privately without a realtor involved:

1. Many people don't understand the process. They thought they would be paying me the mortgage or getting a loan from me, etc.

2. I felt as is they were always suspicious of me because I wasn't going through a realtor and was perhaps trying to take advantage of them. I explained that I was merely saving them the 6% in fees they would have to pay by offering the house at a cheaper price. Trust seemed to be an issue.

3. I figured I limited the market pool of people interested in my house (for the previous two reasons) to a small fraction of those interested in it with a realtor involved. After many months of trying to sell my house privately and all the headaches involved such as being there to show it, I enlisted a realtor and sold it within a week.

I've bought both of my houses privately and have had no issues. I haven't had lawyers involved other than what my bank required for loan approval. I've just represented myself and the people I've bought from have done the same. I would do so again in the future. But I realize that I'm probably a small minority of people in the real estate market.
j.click
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by j.click »

You may wish to consider a buyer's agent. The agent works for YOU but is paid by the seller at closing. We employed one and she was great - knew things we never thought of before...
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joechristmas
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by joechristmas »

adamthesmythe wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:34 pm On the sell side, you have to find out HOW to sell a house and you must have enough time to do it. It may be difficult to convincingly market a house that you personally find unsatisfactory.

On the buy side, you need a plan to find a more suitable house in the absence of a buyer's agent.

I have never rented a house so I have no idea how it is done.

(I thought that obtaining a real estate license was a good bit more involved than filling out forms, but this may be state-dependent).
This is an interesting perspective. I certainly do hate the house that I own. I probably wouldn't be very effective at selling it. Thank you.
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joechristmas
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by joechristmas »

j.click wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:48 pm You may wish to consider a buyer's agent. The agent works for YOU but is paid by the seller at closing. We employed one and she was great - knew things we never thought of before...
What is the best way to go about soliciting this type of service? One of my issues is that I simply do not know what these people do or how to go about finding a competent one.

If I use the same person for all three transactions, will I be in a good position to negotiate on the commissions that they charge?
stan1
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by stan1 »

Knowing a little more about why you don't like it could help us. Is the home you are living in distressed or undesirable to others? Such as has foundation problems, backs onto an 8 lane highway, under the ATL or ORD runway? Does it need modernizing? Neighborhood not well kept? Commute too long? Too far from family? Etc. Etc. Basically, is the house just undesirable to YOU or will it be hard to sell or only will be sold at a price that reflects issues?

These factors could influence how you sell it.

Another factor could be if you think you will need to sell it for less than you paid (because it is distressed or undesirable to others). That's a tough one, and in that case I would recommend using a realtor because getting over the hurdle of having to settle for less than you paid is tough to do alone for some people.

Realtors are sales people, they get paid a commission when they close a sale. You have to keep that in mind as a seller and as a buyer.
Xrayman69
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by Xrayman69 »

joechristmas wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:09 pm Hello.

My wife and I are looking to accomplish the following:

1. Move out of our home into a rental home (SFH--we have 6 in our family);
2. Sale of our current home (SFH in an area that is no longer desirable to us); and,
3. Following the close of sale on our current home, purchase and close on a new SFH.

So we have basically 3 real estate transactions that we are looking at. It will be very expensive and surely a bunch of headaches.

Is it worth it to engage a realtor before undertaking something like this? Do they actually add value?

Previous experience with realtors was poor. While they did take the time to facilitate showings, the showings aren't very helpful, and we wound up somewhere that was not a good fit for us. I just don't think the commission was earned.

Would it be better to simply fill out the paperwork to become a real estate broker myself and represent myself in these transactions?

Thank you.
Not for 6% juice if in a reasonable market. 3-4% total would be tolerable in my experience.
muddgirl
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by muddgirl »

In my experience a good realtor is worth the price. A bad realtor is a millstone. They're not interchangeable unfortunately.

We found our realtor through word of mouth. Personal recommendations from colleagues or friends, not "hey my spouse is a realtor."
dad2000
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by dad2000 »

I think a good realtor is worth it. You need to invest a little time in finding the right one. Ask the right questions and give them a little homework. You'll find the one who understands what you want.

On my last transaction, I was able to negotiate a commission 0.75% below average for the area and I got what I wanted out of the sale.

This time you'll be renting in between. Do your homework on the areas and consider the rental a test run of the area before buying. There is a wealth of information available now for buyers. Schools, crime maps, fire/flood/earthquake/landslide risk, local newspapers all online. Also, hop onto Reddit and research the neighborhoods. You'll find lots of people talking about what they like and don't like about their part of town.
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Bogle7
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Is it worth it to use a real estate agent?

Post by Bogle7 »

No. Yes. Maybe.
Old fart who does three index stock funds, baby.
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Shackleton
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by Shackleton »

In most areas, you do not have to be a licensed realtor to sell your own home or act on your own behalf when purchasing a home. You may need a real estate attorney depending on the state.

But I do question why you think it was the realtor’s fault that you purchased a house you don’t like…
“Superhuman effort isn't worth a damn unless it achieves results.” ~Ernest Shackleton
er999
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by er999 »

Finding a rental on your own should be easy — look at what’s listed on Redfin.com. As someone who’s going through the process myself I easily found a rental there. We hired a real estate agent to help sell our house (5% commission in our area) and I think she will be worthwhile as she had some connections for people to hire to do repairs / upgrades before listing for sale. We’ll see what results we get on the market, though. I found someone who sold the property behind us last year and had many sold properties so would be picky on who you hire.

As to buying a house, the same agent might refer you to someone else (ours will when we plan on buying, said she does selling only). For buying I’m not as sure the value as much since seems easy to search online for homes.

When I bought in 2012 (in a buyer’s market) we used Redfin for the rebate (you get 1-2% back, forget the exact details) but I wasn’t too happy with the agent. He convinced us to up our offer by $20k in the negotiation instead of by $1-2k like I wanted to. It does seem like you could do it yourself, but you won’t save the full 5-6% (since the seller likely already has an agent that will take 2.5-3%). I might try a full service agent this time for buying but not sure that’s the right choice, will see what others say.
sleepy06
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by sleepy06 »

Big differences between any old realtor and a good one.
Due your due diligence and find a high octane realtor.
In our area (very different from yours), there are a few that do the most deals.
Have had good results with one of them and their wisdom and access to properties easily covers fees.
Last home we bought/sold realtor acted as a dual agent and we were rebated a portion of the fee. Lots of opinions out there on dual agency but it worked out for us.
Northern Flicker
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by Northern Flicker »

joechristmas wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:09 pm Hello.

My wife and I are looking to accomplish the following:

1. Move out of our home into a rental home (SFH--we have 6 in our family);
2. Sale of our current home (SFH in an area that is no longer desirable to us); and,
3. Following the close of sale on our current home, purchase and close on a new SFH.
Yes. The agent may be able to help you manage it without the rental in the middle. You may be able to negotiate a somewhat reduced commission if the agent is getting two transactions (your listing and the purchase).

I'm not a fan of dual agency on a single transaction.
Audioarc
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by Audioarc »

Yes. For the most expensive decision in my life I trust the advice of a professional.
Cruise
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by Cruise »

Audioarc wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:31 pm Yes. For the most expensive decision in my life I trust the advice of a professional.
Well said!
nerdymarketer
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by nerdymarketer »

The claim that a "buyers agent is free because it's paid for by the seller" doesn't understand basic economics.

I know many people who've bought homes without a realtor, done it myself as well. I was competing in a hot market against multiple offers. And I won with a lower offer because the seller realtor only took a 3.5% commission and gave 2.5% to the seller, instead of the traditional 3% to each realtor. Seller got more money, selling realtor got more money, and I saved money... Everyone was happy.

The only catch is selling realtors are concerned that clueless buyers will need hand-holding so you have to either build trust with the selling realtor that you will not take up their time, or bypass the selling realtor and get direct access to the seller and explain the situation to them. I've seen it done both ways.

Now, once you acknowledge that a buyer's agent *will* cost you money, then the question of whether they are worth the money is "it depends". If you like paying to have your hand held by a "professional", it is absolutely worth it. I watched relatives go through this and for them the emotional support alone was worth the fee.

Or if you are in a less hot market and want to negotiate aggressively, the third-party nature of a buyer's agent may actually save more than their fee... If you know how to leverage them in the good cop/bad cop routine or if they have a relationship with the other realtor where they may get insider information. I've placed an offer before in a very competitive situation where I knew the property I wanted to buy and found a realtor who worked in the same office as the selling realtor. I was glad I did because their pre-existing friendship with the selling realtor resulted in learning some deal dynamics I was unaware of.

Lastly, never expect a realtor to negotiate hard on your behalf. If you've got a friend who is a creative+aggressive negotiator, even if you use a buyer's agent to handle the showings and contract, I'd still recommend using that friend as a sounding board for how to structure the deal. Every deal I've ever seen has had a way to create value beyond the $ price. I've had friends/family call me for exactly this and since I wasn't emotionally involved I was able to reason more clearly and suggested ways to structure the deal that helped them get an extra $5k-$15k in just a 30 minute conversation.
DoubleClick
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by DoubleClick »

joechristmas wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:09 pm Would it be better to simply fill out the paperwork to become a real estate broker myself and represent myself in these transactions?
I looked into this. Becoming your own real estate agent can be tricky depending upon your state/local laws. Some states require months or years of essentially apprenticeship.
joechristmas wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:09 pm Previous experience with realtors was poor. While they did take the time to facilitate showings, the showings aren't very helpful, and we wound up somewhere that was not a good fit for us. I just don't think the commission was earned.
My experiences with realtors have been similar. But I learned that you can eat your cake and have it too:

I asked a related question and was introduced to shopprop.com.

If they work where you are, great. If not, perhaps they have a referral for a similar flat-fee, no-hassle agent? No experience selling with them, but they seem to list your house on MLS for free, or for a flat fee of $3k, do most (all?) things that a traditional agent does.
invest4
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by invest4 »

Cruise wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:54 pm
Audioarc wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:31 pm Yes. For the most expensive decision in my life I trust the advice of a professional.
Well said!
A lot of people also pay AUM to the “professional” advisor with the same mindset. To each their own, but I think there is a better way for most people.

* Real estate attorney: this is the must have person in the transaction to ensure a smooth transaction and protect you.

* Flat fee MLS broker: their services vary, but for will be hundreds of dollars…not thousands.

We sold our home this way and was provided with:

* MLS listing

* Broker sign (so does not appear as FSBO

* Appointment app for showings, etc.

* Light support…question about the forms for example.

* You set the fee for the buying agent

The main challenge I see for some people is having someone home for the showings. A bit less of an issue with more working from home.

I had a fun experience as the realtors often thought I was the realtor for the seller. There were a few bits I learned along the way…like the forms. It was not difficult, but a few unfamiliar terms for example….just ask google or the Broker.

For our efforts, we kept 8k on a 265k purchase.

Of course, people will raise potential risks like you not being as good at marketing your house, negotiating, or making some kind of costly mistake. I would offer that your real estate attorney helps avoid most things and the rest you will have to assess for yourself including the market environment, etc.

Good luck!
Parkinglotracer
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by Parkinglotracer »

It depends. I sold a house last year in a week without a realtor and bought a house within a week with a realtor. Take a good inventory of your skills, your needs, the market, the property, your time, your ability to market and price the property, and determine what will be best for you. Good luck.
OpenMinded1
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by OpenMinded1 »

This is a complex topic, but I wonder whether a seller using a real estate broker and the company they are associated with
is substantially more or less likely to encounter litigation by a purchaser, and if litigation occurs is the purchaser substantially less likely to be successful if a real estate broker and company was used. Maybe the purchaser would have to go after the real estate company instead of the seller? Maybe the real estate broker/company would be less likely to make mistakes that might lead to a litigation? Maybe the realtor has lawyers that would help the seller if litigation results from a sale that were involved with? I don't know the answers.

What if a purchaser experiences buyer's remorse, and claims that certain things should have been disclosed that weren't?

Maybe it comes down to having a good real estate attorney if you decide to do "for sale by owner."
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hand
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by hand »

Audioarc wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:31 pm Yes. For the most expensive decision in my life I trust the advice of a professional.
Surely you're not referring to investing your retirement savings?
smitcat
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by smitcat »

joechristmas wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:09 pm Hello.

My wife and I are looking to accomplish the following:

1. Move out of our home into a rental home (SFH--we have 6 in our family);
2. Sale of our current home (SFH in an area that is no longer desirable to us); and,
3. Following the close of sale on our current home, purchase and close on a new SFH.

So we have basically 3 real estate transactions that we are looking at. It will be very expensive and surely a bunch of headaches.

Is it worth it to engage a realtor before undertaking something like this? Do they actually add value?

Previous experience with realtors was poor. While they did take the time to facilitate showings, the showings aren't very helpful, and we wound up somewhere that was not a good fit for us. I just don't think the commission was earned.

Would it be better to simply fill out the paperwork to become a real estate broker myself and represent myself in these transactions?

Thank you.

"Would it be better to simply fill out the paperwork to become a real estate broker myself and represent myself in these transactions?"
I think it would be well worth your time to find out the actual time and costs to become a real estate sales agent in your state.
The contents of this post suggest that you do not have much of an idea on what any of these roles and/or tasks entail.
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joechristmas
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by joechristmas »

stan1 wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 6:02 pm Knowing a little more about why you don't like it could help us. Is the home you are living in distressed or undesirable to others? Such as has foundation problems, backs onto an 8 lane highway, under the ATL or ORD runway? Does it need modernizing? Neighborhood not well kept? Commute too long? Too far from family? Etc. Etc. Basically, is the house just undesirable to YOU or will it be hard to sell or only will be sold at a price that reflects issues?

These factors could influence how you sell it.

Another factor could be if you think you will need to sell it for less than you paid (because it is distressed or undesirable to others). That's a tough one, and in that case I would recommend using a realtor because getting over the hurdle of having to settle for less than you paid is tough to do alone for some people.

Realtors are sales people, they get paid a commission when they close a sale. You have to keep that in mind as a seller and as a buyer.
The primary reason that it is undesirable to us is that it is located in a suburb that we do not want to live in. At one time, we were somewhat close to other family (they have since moved) and we purchased the home before we had children (we now have 4). The primary issue is that we are not located where we want to be and have no connection to our neighborhood and do not really even spend time there other than just sleeping. We would like to be in a town where our kids also go to school (now they commute to the next county over) and my wife likewise works nearby so that we have more of a "home base."

As our family has grown, it has become apparent that the home is not well laid out for our family. We have 4 children, yet only 3 bedrooms. This creates issues. We also put in another bathroom, which helps, but it is not going to work as the kids get older. I just don't want to waste my whole life putting up with a house I don't like and that doesn't work for me rather than biting the bullet and making some moves that will make life easier for me, my wife, and our family.

The other thing that really gets to us is that we have encountered a lot of remodeling expenses and upkeep expenses that just aren't worth it. Our property never appreciates. It just costs a fortune to maintain. We will, without a doubt, lose money on it. But after 9 years of this saga, I just want to give up and get out (with as little pain as possible).
Topic Author
joechristmas
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by joechristmas »

invest4 wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 4:19 am
Cruise wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:54 pm
Audioarc wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:31 pm Yes. For the most expensive decision in my life I trust the advice of a professional.
Well said!
A lot of people also pay AUM to the “professional” advisor with the same mindset. To each their own, but I think there is a better way for most people.

* Real estate attorney: this is the must have person in the transaction to ensure a smooth transaction and protect you.

* Flat fee MLS broker: their services vary, but for will be hundreds of dollars…not thousands.

We sold our home this way and was provided with:

* MLS listing

* Broker sign (so does not appear as FSBO

* Appointment app for showings, etc.

* Light support…question about the forms for example.

* You set the fee for the buying agent

The main challenge I see for some people is having someone home for the showings. A bit less of an issue with more working from home.

I had a fun experience as the realtors often thought I was the realtor for the seller. There were a few bits I learned along the way…like the forms. It was not difficult, but a few unfamiliar terms for example….just ask google or the Broker.

For our efforts, we kept 8k on a 265k purchase.

Of course, people will raise potential risks like you not being as good at marketing your house, negotiating, or making some kind of costly mistake. I would offer that your real estate attorney helps avoid most things and the rest you will have to assess for yourself including the market environment, etc.

Good luck!
Your points about bringing in a real estate attorney are another reason that maybe I should do this myself as I already have a law license for my state. Maybe this would be a good area to learn something about.
stan1
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by stan1 »

joechristmas wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:10 am
stan1 wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 6:02 pm Knowing a little more about why you don't like it could help us. Is the home you are living in distressed or undesirable to others? Such as has foundation problems, backs onto an 8 lane highway, under the ATL or ORD runway? Does it need modernizing? Neighborhood not well kept? Commute too long? Too far from family? Etc. Etc. Basically, is the house just undesirable to YOU or will it be hard to sell or only will be sold at a price that reflects issues?

These factors could influence how you sell it.

Another factor could be if you think you will need to sell it for less than you paid (because it is distressed or undesirable to others). That's a tough one, and in that case I would recommend using a realtor because getting over the hurdle of having to settle for less than you paid is tough to do alone for some people.

Realtors are sales people, they get paid a commission when they close a sale. You have to keep that in mind as a seller and as a buyer.
The primary reason that it is undesirable to us is that it is located in a suburb that we do not want to live in. At one time, we were somewhat close to other family (they have since moved) and we purchased the home before we had children (we now have 4). The primary issue is that we are not located where we want to be and have no connection to our neighborhood and do not really even spend time there other than just sleeping. We would like to be in a town where our kids also go to school (now they commute to the next county over) and my wife likewise works nearby so that we have more of a "home base."

As our family has grown, it has become apparent that the home is not well laid out for our family. We have 4 children, yet only 3 bedrooms. This creates issues. We also put in another bathroom, which helps, but it is not going to work as the kids get older. I just don't want to waste my whole life putting up with a house I don't like and that doesn't work for me rather than biting the bullet and making some moves that will make life easier for me, my wife, and our family.

The other thing that really gets to us is that we have encountered a lot of remodeling expenses and upkeep expenses that just aren't worth it. Our property never appreciates. It just costs a fortune to maintain. We will, without a doubt, lose money on it. But after 9 years of this saga, I just want to give up and get out (with as little pain as possible).
Given your views towards the property, I think you'd be hard pressed to move past that experience and "sell" the advantages of the property to a perspective buyer. It sounds like the house may be a little old and not in a place you like. Other people may like the house and neighborhood. It sounds like you'd done repairs and upgrades. Maybe it is even a reasonably nice and updated house but you just don't like it.

Hire the realtor to sell it. You and the realtor will have aligned interests: selling the property. The realtor will not have emotions about 9 years of bad experiences. I just read you are an attorney? Treat the house like a business decision not a personal decision.
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quantAndHold
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by quantAndHold »

This is Bogleheads, where everyone discounts expertise, and does it all themselves to save a few bucks, no matter how unqualified they are. I’m sure some people would be doing their own surgery, if there weren’t those pesky licensing requirements.

OP, you already chose a house that was a poor fit after not very many years of living in it, and you seem to know nothing about how to actually go about selling a house, or the fact that you don’t need to move out of a house and into a rental before you sell. If anyone is a candidate for getting help, I’d say it’s you.

An attorney who represents himself has a fool for a client.
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joechristmas
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by joechristmas »

quantAndHold wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:39 am OP, you already chose a house that was a poor fit after not very many years of living in it, and you seem to know nothing about how to actually go about selling a house, or the fact that you don’t need to move out of a house and into a rental before you sell. If anyone is a candidate for getting help, I’d say it’s you.
I am curious about this and would like some more of your thoughts on this. It seems to me we have essentially two options:

1. Move out of current home and into a rental to facilitate the sale of the current SFH. (Downsides: have to move things twice, Upsides: get to move sooner and set kids up for new schools with the start of the school year; have more time to search for a new home and find one that works with our budget and is in the right location for the family)
2. Attempt to facilitate sale of current home while still there. (Downsides: hard to market SFH with 4 kids at home, still have to live in our current home for the duration, once we close we are still faced with trying too rent and/or buy on a shorter time frame -- depending on how much time we have negotiated for ourselves; Upsides: possibly save a little from not having to move twice (a couple thousand dollars?)).

I am not seeing how 2 is altogether better. Another benefit of renting for awhile may be that we get to get rid of some of the stuff that we have been accumulating. That's one great thing about moving. Throwing away all of the stuff that you simply do not need and have not yet been bothered enough by to purge.

Why do you think it is advantageous to go from owning one SFH to owning another SFH?
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joechristmas
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by joechristmas »

stan1 wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:37 am
Hire the realtor to sell it. You and the realtor will have aligned interests: selling the property. The realtor will not have emotions about 9 years of bad experiences. I just read you are an attorney? Treat the house like a business decision not a personal decision.
Thank you. I found this point to be very convincing. I think this is the route we will go (at least on the sale of the current SFH).
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quantAndHold
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by quantAndHold »

joechristmas wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:48 am
quantAndHold wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:39 am OP, you already chose a house that was a poor fit after not very many years of living in it, and you seem to know nothing about how to actually go about selling a house, or the fact that you don’t need to move out of a house and into a rental before you sell. If anyone is a candidate for getting help, I’d say it’s you.
I am curious about this and would like some more of your thoughts on this. It seems to me we have essentially two options:

1. Move out of current home and into a rental to facilitate the sale of the current SFH. (Downsides: have to move things twice, Upsides: get to move sooner and set kids up for new schools with the start of the school year; have more time to search for a new home and find one that works with our budget and is in the right location for the family)
2. Attempt to facilitate sale of current home while still there. (Downsides: hard to market SFH with 4 kids at home, still have to live in our current home for the duration, once we close we are still faced with trying too rent and/or buy on a shorter time frame -- depending on how much time we have negotiated for ourselves; Upsides: possibly save a little from not having to move twice (a couple thousand dollars?)).

I am not seeing how 2 is altogether better. Another benefit of renting for awhile may be that we get to get rid of some of the stuff that we have been accumulating. That's one great thing about moving. Throwing away all of the stuff that you simply do not need and have not yet been bothered enough by to purge.

Why do you think it is advantageous to go from owning one SFH to owning another SFH?
Moving twice is expensive, time consuming, and brings more disadvantages than advantages. Changing the kids’ schools, possibly twice? It would be less time consuming and much cheaper to do the purge and staging in place, before you put the house on the market. Keep the kids in the same school, and start shopping for the new home, aiming for a chained close and move when school is out for the summer. People do this every day. Realtors know how to do this.

When we were selling a house in a hot market (50+ showings in a week, and we expected it to sell in a week), we moved into a nearby AirBNB for the week the house was on the market. But in a normal market, just get the house ready up front, and do a quick cleanup before you leave each morning.
jj45
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by jj45 »

The most important thing I look for in a realtor is their negotiation skills. Everyone thinks they are a good negotiator, just like everyone thinks they are a good driver, but half of us are below average. A skilled realtor has deep experience negotiating real estate deals, has inside info about the realtor on the other side of the table, and knows the state of the market. Using realtors has earned me much more than they cost.
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quantAndHold
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by quantAndHold »

jj45 wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 10:02 am The most important thing I look for in a realtor is their negotiation skills. Everyone thinks they are a good negotiator, just like everyone thinks they are a good driver, but half of us are below average. A skilled realtor has deep experience negotiating real estate deals, has inside info about the realtor on the other side of the table, and knows the state of the market. Using realtors has earned me much more than they cost.
This exactly. Every RE deal I’ve done has had some negotiation at some point in the deal. Having someone who’s good at that is worth every penny.
02nz
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by 02nz »

joechristmas wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:10 am
stan1 wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 6:02 pm Knowing a little more about why you don't like it could help us. Is the home you are living in distressed or undesirable to others? Such as has foundation problems, backs onto an 8 lane highway, under the ATL or ORD runway? Does it need modernizing? Neighborhood not well kept? Commute too long? Too far from family? Etc. Etc. Basically, is the house just undesirable to YOU or will it be hard to sell or only will be sold at a price that reflects issues?

These factors could influence how you sell it.

Another factor could be if you think you will need to sell it for less than you paid (because it is distressed or undesirable to others). That's a tough one, and in that case I would recommend using a realtor because getting over the hurdle of having to settle for less than you paid is tough to do alone for some people.

Realtors are sales people, they get paid a commission when they close a sale. You have to keep that in mind as a seller and as a buyer.
The primary reason that it is undesirable to us is that it is located in a suburb that we do not want to live in. At one time, we were somewhat close to other family (they have since moved) and we purchased the home before we had children (we now have 4). The primary issue is that we are not located where we want to be and have no connection to our neighborhood and do not really even spend time there other than just sleeping. We would like to be in a town where our kids also go to school (now they commute to the next county over) and my wife likewise works nearby so that we have more of a "home base."

As our family has grown, it has become apparent that the home is not well laid out for our family. We have 4 children, yet only 3 bedrooms. This creates issues. We also put in another bathroom, which helps, but it is not going to work as the kids get older. I just don't want to waste my whole life putting up with a house I don't like and that doesn't work for me rather than biting the bullet and making some moves that will make life easier for me, my wife, and our family.

The other thing that really gets to us is that we have encountered a lot of remodeling expenses and upkeep expenses that just aren't worth it. Our property never appreciates. It just costs a fortune to maintain. We will, without a doubt, lose money on it. But after 9 years of this saga, I just want to give up and get out (with as little pain as possible).
Yep, pretty much confirms my initial take - none of that is on the realtor who worked with you on the purchase of the current home.

Not saying you should use or not use a realtor for the upcoming transactions, but you need to understand what a realtor does. Matching the number of children you'd have in the (then) future to the number of bedrooms is not within their scope of work.
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hand
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by hand »

02nz wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 10:34 am Yep, pretty much confirms my initial take - none of that is on the realtor who worked with you on the purchase of the current home.

Not saying you should use or not use a realtor for the upcoming transactions, but you need to understand what a realtor does. Matching the number of children you'd have in the (then) future to the number of bedrooms is not within their scope of work.
100% agree - realtors get paid for completing sales, not for matching you with a house that meets your needs.

While real estate agents run the gamut, many are no more than used house salespeople just looking to close any deal.

The best of course do have your long term interests at heart, but I've found it harder to find these types of professionals than to DIY a sale (or even easier a purchase).
EnjoyIt
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by EnjoyIt »

quantAndHold wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 10:26 am
jj45 wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 10:02 am The most important thing I look for in a realtor is their negotiation skills. Everyone thinks they are a good negotiator, just like everyone thinks they are a good driver, but half of us are below average. A skilled realtor has deep experience negotiating real estate deals, has inside info about the realtor on the other side of the table, and knows the state of the market. Using realtors has earned me much more than they cost.
This exactly. Every RE deal I’ve done has had some negotiation at some point in the deal. Having someone who’s good at that is worth every penny.
Which begs to ask the question. How do you find a good real estate agent?

For example, Although our last agent was very nice, I think they did very little with regards to earning their keep. They had a couple of open houses and when it was time to negotiate, it appeared they goal was to get it sold ASAP as opposed to negotiating in our best interest.

So how does one vet a real estate agent and find one that is worth their 3-6 percent? One can list a house pretty cheap these days with some the online services available.
A time to EVALUATE your jitters: | viewtopic.php?p=1139732#p1139732
Northern Flicker
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by Northern Flicker »

hand wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 2:22 pm
02nz wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 10:34 am Yep, pretty much confirms my initial take - none of that is on the realtor who worked with you on the purchase of the current home.

Not saying you should use or not use a realtor for the upcoming transactions, but you need to understand what a realtor does. Matching the number of children you'd have in the (then) future to the number of bedrooms is not within their scope of work.
100% agree - realtors get paid for completing sales, not for matching you with a house that meets your needs.

While real estate agents run the gamut, many are no more than used house salespeople just looking to close any deal.

The best of course do have your long term interests at heart, but I've found it harder to find these types of professionals than to DIY a sale (or even easier a purchase).
First, choose the brokerage. Some are hard charging sales organizations, some have a strong focus on risk management, some are in between. Obviously, you want one with a strong risk management discipline whenever possible.

Then try to get a referral from someone you know who has used an agent in the office. When interviewing the agent, ask how they work. Ask what their fiduciary obligations are (how they respond may say a lot about their attitude). Ask how risk is managed by them and in their brokerage. Ask the brokerage if they require their agents to carry errors and omission insurance. The answers and how the answers are presented may provide a lot of insight.
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by DoubleClick »

jj45 wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 10:02 am The most important thing I look for in a realtor is their negotiation skills. Everyone thinks they are a good negotiator, just like everyone thinks they are a good driver, but half of us are below average. A skilled realtor has deep experience negotiating real estate deals, has inside info about the realtor on the other side of the table, and knows the state of the market. Using realtors has earned me much more than they cost.
The trouble is, it's impossible to evaluate the negotiation skills of someone if one is not a skilled negotiator themselves. And there is no objective measure of how much of a role negotiation played in the deal, even after the deal is complete. Of course, it's in the realtor's interest to convince you that it did, and they rocked.

Most realtors have experience in closing deals (and getting their cut), which is not necessarily the same as negotiating deals.

And finally, using "inside info" is illegal in most jurisdictions in my understanding.

To each his own.
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by DoubleClick »

EnjoyIt wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 2:33 pm For example, Although our last agent was very nice, I think they did very little with regards to earning their keep. They had a couple of open houses and when it was time to negotiate, it appeared they goal was to get it sold ASAP as opposed to negotiating in our best interest.
This has been our experience every time. Similar on the buying side.
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by invest4 »

joechristmas wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:12 am
invest4 wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 4:19 am
Cruise wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:54 pm
Audioarc wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:31 pm Yes. For the most expensive decision in my life I trust the advice of a professional.
Well said!
A lot of people also pay AUM to the “professional” advisor with the same mindset. To each their own, but I think there is a better way for most people.

* Real estate attorney: this is the must have person in the transaction to ensure a smooth transaction and protect you.

* Flat fee MLS broker: their services vary, but for will be hundreds of dollars…not thousands.

We sold our home this way and was provided with:

* MLS listing

* Broker sign (so does not appear as FSBO

* Appointment app for showings, etc.

* Light support…question about the forms for example.

* You set the fee for the buying agent

The main challenge I see for some people is having someone home for the showings. A bit less of an issue with more working from home.

I had a fun experience as the realtors often thought I was the realtor for the seller. There were a few bits I learned along the way…like the forms. It was not difficult, but a few unfamiliar terms for example….just ask google or the Broker.

For our efforts, we kept 8k on a 265k purchase.

Of course, people will raise potential risks like you not being as good at marketing your house, negotiating, or making some kind of costly mistake. I would offer that your real estate attorney helps avoid most things and the rest you will have to assess for yourself including the market environment, etc.

Good luck!
Your points about bringing in a real estate attorney are another reason that maybe I should do this myself as I already have a law license for my state. Maybe this would be a good area to learn something about.
Give it some thought whether it is more prudent to spend $500 for the real estate attorney vs trying to learn it yourself. Not to mention the existing contacts with the title companies and the process.
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by Monsterflockster »

joechristmas wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:09 pm
Would it be better to simply fill out the paperwork to become a real estate broker myself and represent myself in these transactions?

Thank you.
In CA you need to do 135 hours of course work, pass the licencing exam, be sponsored by a broker and pay for your licence.

Not sure what state you are in but I would check with state requirements before I went down that road. Time is money and this isn't something you just do on youtube. Personally at least for the selling of my home, it is a lot of money, I would leave it to the professionals and reduce stress.
DoubleClick
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by DoubleClick »

OP, as you can see, people are split on this.

FWIW, to each their own, but to me in this particular domain, leaving it to a an agent (aka a professional) increases stress. It's similar to leaving my finances to an "asset management professional."

Everyone's mileage may vary. To each, their own.
EnjoyIt
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by EnjoyIt »

I’m truly curious. For those who have had excellent results with their agent, please share how you found and vetted them. We will be market in about 1 year and would like some direction in finding an agent that is worth their fee.
A time to EVALUATE your jitters: | viewtopic.php?p=1139732#p1139732
Johny Fever
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by Johny Fever »

EnjoyIt wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 4:55 pm I’m truly curious. For those who have had excellent results with their agent, please share how you found and vetted them. We will be market in about 1 year and would like some direction in finding an agent that is worth their fee.
We have a great realtor..she has worked with us on about 8 different deals for either my wife and I or our children and their spouses. We found her to be completely honest by interviewing about 6 different agents 20 years or so ago when we were selling a home. We had each one come over and tell us what they would do to market our house, what they thought the listing price should be, what their annual sales volume was, what company they worked for and all that...2013 was a rebound year in the market and we wanted to be sure we caught it...our agent is very professional and knows all the facts and has terrific data to help us. Professional and has a great support staff to be sure things are done right the first time. I think you just have to do the work to get it right. And a little luck helps as well.
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by Johny Fever »

joechristmas wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:09 pm Hello.

My wife and I are looking to accomplish the following:

1. Move out of our home into a rental home (SFH--we have 6 in our family);
2. Sale of our current home (SFH in an area that is no longer desirable to us); and,
3. Following the close of sale on our current home, purchase and close on a new SFH.

So we have basically 3 real estate transactions that we are looking at. It will be very expensive and surely a bunch of headaches.

Is it worth it to engage a realtor before undertaking something like this? Do they actually add value?

Previous experience with realtors was poor. While they did take the time to facilitate showings, the showings aren't very helpful, and we wound up somewhere that was not a good fit for us. I just don't think the commission was earned.

Would it be better to simply fill out the paperwork to become a real estate broker myself and represent myself in these transactions?

Thank you.
Are you able to get a bridge loan and move into a new home and then sell your old home after you have moved out? That rental part sounds like a giant pain the rear to me. And if you a really good realtor it would be more than worth it IHMO and my experience.
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Re: Is it worth it to use a realtor?

Post by alpenglow »

The right realtor is worth it. I recently sold rural property in VT. 2 out of the 3 realtors I contacted were terrible - disinterested and suggested low-ball listing prices. The realtor I went with was amazing. He took the time to walk a large parcel (~40A) and put lots of effort into researching comps. He suggested a listing price 15% higher than the others, marketed the property well, and delivered a full-price offer in under a month.
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