PSA - LastPass breach!

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Blues
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by Blues »

samsoes wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 10:41 amI deleted and moved to Bitwarden. I assume that many years' of versions of my now deleted vault is still on their offsite backup servers and have changed critical* passwords, security questions, etc., to mitigate the risk. I suggest that all LP users -- current and former -- do the same.

*Note that I am slowly updating the non-critical ones, a few every day.
That's what I did when I moved my data to Bitwarden a couple / few weeks back.
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by tibbitts »

BogleFanGal wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 10:35 am Curious: for all the folks who deleted their LP account and moved to a diff PW manager - how do they know if their deleted account will continue to be alive on a backup LP server somewhere? Do people have any legal rights to formally request that LP remove it unilaterally across the board - including backup servers or do they have no say over that?
It doesn't matter if LP still has this data, so nobody would bother to request that they remove it.
mhlambert
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by mhlambert »

I haven't read through this entire thread so if this is a repeat I apologize.

Whether you move to another password manager or not, you need to change all your sensitive passwords. The hackers obtained a snapshot of your encrypted data and have unlimited time to attempt to decrypt it with dictionary and brute force attacks. Changing your master password will result in your current password data being re-encrypted but doesn't change the fact that they have a static snapshot of your data that they can attack.

Myself, I'm tentatively sticking with LastPass for now until I have time for further research. Better the devil you know than the devil you don't . I've changed my master password and my passwords for all sensitive/financial accounts so the data they have is useless even if they successfully decrypt it.
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BogleFanGal
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by BogleFanGal »

Tom_T wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 10:39 am
BogleFanGal wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 10:35 am Curious: for all the folks who deleted their LP account and moved to a diff PW manager - how do they know if their deleted account will continue to be alive on a backup LP server somewhere? Do people have any legal rights to formally request that LP remove it unilaterally across the board - including backup servers or do they have no say over that?
What's the difference? If the hacker has already copied the data, it's in his hands.
Understood - that horse left the barn. But most folks would probably still prefer that a live vault won't live on in LP's untrusted hands years after they requested and assumed it was deleted. Just wondering if consumers have any legal authority to formally demand deletion of backups as well.
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by lazydavid »

mhlambert wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 11:01 am Whether you move to another password manager or not, you need to change all your sensitive passwords. The hackers obtained a snapshot of your encrypted data and have unlimited time to attempt to decrypt it with dictionary and brute force attacks.
And if you have a good master password, unlimited time is what they'll need. :twisted:
TravelGeek
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by TravelGeek »

BogleFanGal wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 11:07 am
Understood - that horse left the barn. But most folks would probably still prefer that a live vault won't live on in LP's untrusted hands years after they requested and assumed it was deleted. Just wondering if consumers have any legal authority to formally demand deletion of backups as well.
If you live in CA, you might be able to request deletion based on the CCPA.

https://oag.ca.gov/privacy/ccpa

Europe has similar protections, I think. And just the fact that they have to comply with those rules for some users might ensure that they automatically comply for all users. But you’d have to ask LP, I think.

Not sure that any would extend to backup that may linger for months or years on servers/tapes/…
stan1
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by stan1 »

TravelGeek wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 12:10 pm
BogleFanGal wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 11:07 am
Understood - that horse left the barn. But most folks would probably still prefer that a live vault won't live on in LP's untrusted hands years after they requested and assumed it was deleted. Just wondering if consumers have any legal authority to formally demand deletion of backups as well.
If you live in CA, you might be able to request deletion based on the CCPA.

https://oag.ca.gov/privacy/ccpa

Europe has similar protections, I think. And just the fact that they have to comply with those rules for some users might ensure that they automatically comply for all users. But you’d have to ask LP, I think.

Not sure that any would extend to backup that may linger for months or years on servers/tapes/…
They will still retain data if there is a court order. It is possible there are court orders that force them to retain the entire database, not just for the individuals named in the court order (or the company chooses to implement the court order by retaining the entire database). Hopefully judges are getting smarter about this and insisting that orders be written that limit retention to the parties named in the court order but that might be a step too far and there still could be years' of data.
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by mark_in_denver »

mhlambert wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 11:01 am I haven't read through this entire thread so if this is a repeat I apologize.

Whether you move to another password manager or not, you need to change all your sensitive passwords. The hackers obtained a snapshot of your encrypted data and have unlimited time to attempt to decrypt it with dictionary and brute force attacks. Changing your master password will result in your current password data being re-encrypted but doesn't change the fact that they have a static snapshot of your data that they can attack.

Myself, I'm tentatively sticking with LastPass for now until I have time for further research. Better the devil you know than the devil you don't . I've changed my master password and my passwords for all sensitive/financial accounts so the data they have is useless even if they successfully decrypt it.
I'm sticking with Lastpass, I see no reason to move. Nobody here has convinced me otherwise. I've always assumed that encrypted databases would eventually get out in the wild anyways. The most important thing is to always always uses a complex password. Some are concerned about phishing attempts, but I've been waiting years to get at least one phone call, email or text that looks or sounds even half convincing.

If you use a good password with a PW manager it will salt and hash it many times over. Brute force and rainbow tables will be useless.
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by stan1 »

mark_in_denver wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 1:07 pm
mhlambert wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 11:01 am I haven't read through this entire thread so if this is a repeat I apologize.

Whether you move to another password manager or not, you need to change all your sensitive passwords. The hackers obtained a snapshot of your encrypted data and have unlimited time to attempt to decrypt it with dictionary and brute force attacks. Changing your master password will result in your current password data being re-encrypted but doesn't change the fact that they have a static snapshot of your data that they can attack.

Myself, I'm tentatively sticking with LastPass for now until I have time for further research. Better the devil you know than the devil you don't . I've changed my master password and my passwords for all sensitive/financial accounts so the data they have is useless even if they successfully decrypt it.
I'm sticking with Lastpass, I see no reason to move. Nobody here has convinced me otherwise. I've always assumed that encrypted databases would eventually get out in the wild anyways. The most important thing is to always always uses a complex password. Some are concerned about phishing attempts, but I've been waiting years to get at least one phone call, email or text that looks or sounds even half convincing.

If you use a good password with a PW manager it will salt and hash it many times over. Brute force and rainbow tables will be useless.
I'd still recommend reviewing your vault over a few weeks. One thing I found is that a number of sites that previously required a security question now no longer do so. So basically I had security question answers stored in my vault that could be used for attempted social engineering with a customer support rep even though the site no longer required for updated accounts due to implementing 2FA.

Also I changed some site usernames from my email address to a random phrase (like Specialist7485) when allowed.

I realized I had an assortment of sites I did not need, such as specialty retailers where I can check out as a guest without creating an account. Some sites allow deleting an account rather than just abandoning it. For accounts I chose to abandon I tried to delete my email address before doing so (not always possible).

I also realized that some sites that previously had limits on password strength to 16 characters and only some symbols have now been updated to allow much stronger passwords. I updated those as well when I could. Unfortunately Vanguard has not updated their password limitations in a long time.

The keys to the kingdom are the cell phone number and email accounts. I think the biggest risk is social engineering of customer support reps to get account access transferred to someone who is not authorized. All businesses have to have a workaround if someone loses their 2FA, that's the weak link. Make sure for example that you have a PIN or password to change account features that's above and beyond the login password. ATT uses a PIN, Verizon uses a secret phase if I recall correctly. I saw first hand when I had to visit an ATT store front a few months ago that they were turning away customers who came in wanting assistance but did not know their PIN. They told them "sorry we can't help you without a PIN, follow the process on the website". That gave me a little bit of confidence that ATT was taking social engineering concerns more seriously. And don't put your carrier PIN into the password manager!
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by LadyGeek »

LadyGeek wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 7:03 am I would have linked to Steve Gibson's website, as they contain podcast transcripts. GRC | Security Now! Episode Archive

Unfortunately, I don't see the latest episode posted.
The transcript is now posted. GRC | Security Now! Episode Archive

Here are the "Leaving LastPass" direct links for: Browser, PDF, and Plain text

Mentioned earlier in this thread (and at the end of the podcast) is a method I recommended for generating an easy to remember strong password. See: Password Haystacks: How Well Hidden is Your Needle?

I'm starting to hear Bitwarden advertising. They must be jumping at the unexpected opportunity to push their brand.
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by JD2775 »

LadyGeek wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 7:47 pm My favorite security podcast, Security Now, just spent an entire 2 hour episode on Lastpass. See: Leaving LastPass

It's very enlightening. The podcast host, Steve Gibson, is excellent at explaining basic concepts. Bottom line - Change your passwords and don't use LastPass.
Thanks for posting this LadyGreek. This is not the type of podcast I would ever usually listen to, but I found it very informative and easy to follow along with.
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by fetch5482 »

LadyGeek wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 2:13 pm
I'm starting to hear Bitwarden advertising. They must be jumping at the unexpected opportunity to push their brand.
Bitwarden raised a decent funding round couple months ago. Perhaps they are using some of that money towards marketing.
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by rockstar »

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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by samsoes »

rockstar wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:11 pm Another Steve update:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTtUhluQiIk
Is there a TL;DR version of this, such as an executive summary?
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by LadyGeek »

^^^ Dump LastPass and change all your passwords.

The link in human readable format: 1 - LastPass Aftermath, LastPass vault de-obfuscator, LastPass iteration count folly - YouTube

I just listened to it via my podcast feed.

The feedback is well worthwhile, as Steve found that many of his fans discovered that their LastPass vaults had the Password Iterations field set to "1" as in One. He goes through an example with a strong password that will take almost 2 years to crack with the password iteration set much higher. Taking that iteration down to "1" means that the same hardware will only take 60 seconds to break. Steve is irate and flames off on that (as best he can).

The show is listed in GRC | Security Now! Episode Archive, but the transcript has not yet posted. However, he's posted the show notes, which go into a great amount of detail on LastPass - including listener feedback. Security Now! #905 - 01-10-23 show notes That's far more detail than he usually posts and I suspect he's providing ammo for a class-action lawsuit. (Discussed after he described the "horror" of finding "1" in the password iteration field.)
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by samsoes »

LadyGeek wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:36 pm ^^^ Dump LastPass and change all your passwords.

The link in human readable format: 1 - LastPass Aftermath, LastPass vault de-obfuscator, LastPass iteration count folly - YouTube

I just listened to it via my podcast feed.

The feedback is well worthwhile, as Steve found that many of his fans discovered that their LastPass vaults had the Password Iterations field set to "1" as in One. He goes through an example with a strong password that will take almost 2 years to crack with the password iteration set much higher. Taking that iteration down to "1" means that the same hardware will only take 60 seconds to break. Steve is irate and flames off on that (as best he can).

The show is listed in GRC | Security Now! Episode Archive, but the transcript has not yet posted. However, he's posted the show notes, which go into a great amount of detail on LastPass - including listener feedback. Security Now! #905 - 01-10-23 show notes That's far more detail than he usually posts and I suspect he's providing ammo for a class-action lawsuit. (Discussed after he described the "horror" of finding "1" in the password iteration field.)
Thank you, I appreciate it.
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by rockstar »

samsoes wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:33 pm
rockstar wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:11 pm Another Steve update:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTtUhluQiIk
Is there a TL;DR version of this, such as an executive summary?
There's also a shorter video, where he goes over a tool a guy wrote with the help of ChatGBT that'll let you look at a portion of your own vault.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te8i1GiKUn4

This is a 24ish minute segment from the longer podcast.
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by Nicolas »

LadyGeek wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:36 pm ^^^ Dump LastPass and change all your passwords.

The link in human readable format: 1 - LastPass Aftermath, LastPass vault de-obfuscator, LastPass iteration count folly - YouTube

I just listened to it via my podcast feed.

The feedback is well worthwhile, as Steve found that many of his fans discovered that their LastPass vaults had the Password Iterations field set to "1" as in One. He goes through an example with a strong password that will take almost 2 years to crack with the password iteration set much higher. Taking that iteration down to "1" means that the same hardware will only take 60 seconds to break. Steve is irate and flames off on that (as best he can).

The show is listed in GRC | Security Now! Episode Archive, but the transcript has not yet posted. However, he's posted the show notes, which go into a great amount of detail on LastPass - including listener feedback. Security Now! #905 - 01-10-23 show notes That's far more detail than he usually posts and I suspect he's providing ammo for a class-action lawsuit. (Discussed after he described the "horror" of finding "1" in the password iteration field.)
In the earlier podcast Steve said the password hash iteration should be at least 350,000 but he said why not set it to 1,000,000 as it takes just a few seconds. So I did.
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by le_sacre »

Just in case anyone missed it, since at a glance I didn't see the ultimate TLDR:

If you are a LastPass user...
You absolutely need to:
  • make sure 2fa is enabled on all sensitive accounts
You really really should:
  • change every sensitive account's password
And if you are still using LastPass and thus storing these updated passwords:
  • change your LastPass master password
(otherwise, hackers who have cracked your old master password could attempt to login and get access to all those new passwords you just updated)

I just post this because I've been seeing advice like "just changing your master password won't help, you need to change all your individual account passwords", which is true... but could leave people thinking that changing the master password is worthless and not worth doing (FALSE!).

Lastly, you should strongly consider:
  • migrating to a different password manager like 1password or BitWarden
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K72
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by K72 »

Having listened to almost 4 hours (two episodes) I found it surprisingly understandable for the most part, with one exception. In both episodes, it was mentioned very briefly that 2FA (such as Google Authenticator) for LastPass login offers no additional security beyond the master password. Can someone explain why?

P.S. My iteration count was fortunately 100K but I bumped it up to 1M and changed all critical account passwords.
All we want are the facts...
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by Nicolas »

K72 wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 10:04 pm Having listened to almost 4 hours (two episodes) I found it surprisingly understandable for the most part, with one exception. In both episodes, it was mentioned very briefly that 2FA (such as Google Authenticator) for LastPass login offers no additional security beyond the master password. Can someone explain why?

P.S. My iteration count was fortunately 100K but I bumped it up to 1M and changed all critical account passwords.
2FA wouldn’t have protected you from this LP breach as they got in through the back door, as it were, so no 2FA needed to get in. They tricked an employee into divulging his credentials and then stole everyone’s vault backups. Their only task now is to crack your master password to decrypt your vault backup. And they have unlimited time to try to do that.

If they couldn’t have accessed the back door it would absolutely have protected you from front door attacks, i.e. trying to log in as you.
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by Uncle Morris »

Nicolas wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 10:14 pm
K72 wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 10:04 pm Having listened to almost 4 hours (two episodes) I found it surprisingly understandable for the most part, with one exception. In both episodes, it was mentioned very briefly that 2FA (such as Google Authenticator) for LastPass login offers no additional security beyond the master password. Can someone explain why?

P.S. My iteration count was fortunately 100K but I bumped it up to 1M and changed all critical account passwords.
2FA wouldn’t have protected you from this LP breach as they got in through the back door, as it were, so no 2FA needed to get in. They tricked an employee into divulging his credentials and then stole everyone’s vault backups. Their only task now is to crack your master password to decrypt your vault backup. And they have unlimited time to try to do that.

If they couldn’t have accessed the back door it would absolutely have protected you from front door attacks, i.e. trying to log in as you.
But wouldn't 2FA on your individual accounts (email, financial institutions, etc.) help?
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by cacophony »

Uncle Morris wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 11:19 pm
Nicolas wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 10:14 pm
K72 wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 10:04 pm Having listened to almost 4 hours (two episodes) I found it surprisingly understandable for the most part, with one exception. In both episodes, it was mentioned very briefly that 2FA (such as Google Authenticator) for LastPass login offers no additional security beyond the master password. Can someone explain why?

P.S. My iteration count was fortunately 100K but I bumped it up to 1M and changed all critical account passwords.
2FA wouldn’t have protected you from this LP breach as they got in through the back door, as it were, so no 2FA needed to get in. They tricked an employee into divulging his credentials and then stole everyone’s vault backups. Their only task now is to crack your master password to decrypt your vault backup. And they have unlimited time to try to do that.

If they couldn’t have accessed the back door it would absolutely have protected you from front door attacks, i.e. trying to log in as you.
But wouldn't 2FA on your individual accounts (email, financial institutions, etc.) help?
Correct, 2FA on individual accounts would help tremendously.
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by Nicolas »

Uncle Morris wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 11:19 pm
Nicolas wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 10:14 pm
K72 wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 10:04 pm Having listened to almost 4 hours (two episodes) I found it surprisingly understandable for the most part, with one exception. In both episodes, it was mentioned very briefly that 2FA (such as Google Authenticator) for LastPass login offers no additional security beyond the master password. Can someone explain why?

P.S. My iteration count was fortunately 100K but I bumped it up to 1M and changed all critical account passwords.
2FA wouldn’t have protected you from this LP breach as they got in through the back door, as it were, so no 2FA needed to get in. They tricked an employee into divulging his credentials and then stole everyone’s vault backups. Their only task now is to crack your master password to decrypt your vault backup. And they have unlimited time to try to do that.

If they couldn’t have accessed the back door it would absolutely have protected you from front door attacks, i.e. trying to log in as you.
But wouldn't 2FA on your individual accounts (email, financial institutions, etc.) help?
Yes, of course. If they cracked your master password and thus decrypted your vault they would still be stopped by your 2FA on your individual sites. As you know, not all sites support 2FA. I make sure I have 2FA turned on on all my sites that do support it.
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by K72 »

Completely agree with the need to change account passwords, but it isn't clear why changing your master password might be needed if you drastically increase your iteration count. In the event your master password was cracked on your stolen vault, the bad guys would have to contend with 2FA and (unknown) iteration count to get into your current vault. Correct?
All we want are the facts...
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by fetch5482 »

K72 wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 11:58 pm Completely agree with the need to change account passwords, but it isn't clear why changing your master password might be needed if you drastically increase your iteration count. In the event your master password was cracked on your stolen vault, the bad guys would have to contend with 2FA and (unknown) iteration count to get into your current vault. Correct?
With 2fa you have two levels of defense. If the attacker finds one (the password in this case), they are much closer to hacking. Just change the password so you really do have "2" fa where both are unknown to the attacker.
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by Mordoch »

K72 wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 11:58 pm Completely agree with the need to change account passwords, but it isn't clear why changing your master password might be needed if you drastically increase your iteration count. In the event your master password was cracked on your stolen vault, the bad guys would have to contend with 2FA and (unknown) iteration count to get into your current vault. Correct?
First of all one important detail to understand is if they have already stolen your file with your master password, changing the number of iterations at that point while leaving the password the same does not actually do anything to the hacker or anyone else who gets the old file from the hacker. At that point you need to change the password both for your master password (while then upping the iteration count) and also at least key accounts, which is generally easier to do with the master password retaining those new passwords. You should also understand an unknown number of iterations is not really the protection, the real protection is why the hacker can figure out how many, it will slow them down in terms of the number of guesses, so this can be an effective defense if the master password is strong enough. In theory with a strong enough master password and known number of iterations you could take the attitude you don't need to worry if a hacker might have the file, but in practice you probably want to play it safe, especially in a Last Pass scenario where there may be concerns the number of iterations could have been possibly botched or lower than you though.

Importantly you should also understand hackers may find their way around 2FA for your password vault specifically, so this can't really be relied upon. It does have benefits regarding also independently doing so for key accounts though because it means a hacker merely getting your master password and file is not enough in this case, and if you are using your phone for 2FA generally something happening to your phone would give you a clue there is an issue and give you time to respond before hackers could actually manage to truly run off with your money.
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by LadyGeek »

The latest Security Now! episode mentions something called "password haystacks". I posted this earlier, but it's worth repeating. This is a great way to increase password security if you have to remember (or write down) your password.

Just add a bunch of characters (numbers, letters, or symbols) to the beginning, middle, or end of your password. You know what those characters are, so it's easy to remember.

See: GRC's | Password Haystacks: How Well Hidden is Your Needle?

For example, your password is "monkey123". This can be cracked in 1.04 seconds. To make it more secure, you decide to add "!Abc" to the beginning. This takes 165 centuries to crack. You then add "!Abc" to all of your passwords, so they're still easy to remember.

Caution: This is not as good as a truly random password. However, if you really, really need to write it down, at least do it this way.
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by LadyGeek »

Uncle Morris has a question which I've moved to a new thread. See: Which 2-Factor Authentication (2FA) app is best?

Let's use this thread for security regarding LastPass.
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by squirrel1963 »

[Post merged into here from: Please review your passwords. I also changed the title of this post. --admin LadyGeek]
LadyGeek wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 10:22 am Earlier today, a member's account was hijacked. In this case, the member's post was filled with spam. Thanks to a member who reported the post, we got to it quickly and the post was removed. We also performed some additional actions behind the scenes. (I also received a PM.)

This is a reminder that members should verify that their passwords are secure (a lot of random characters). If your password is not secure, please change it.

You can do this two ways:

The first way - In the User control panel --> Profile --> Edit account settings (generic link which goes to the right spot)

1. New password: (enter the new password)
2. Confirm password: (enter the password again)
3. Current password: (enter the password you have now)
4. Submit

The second way - At the login prompt, click on the "I forgot my password" link and enter the email address on record. A password reset email will be sent to that address.

Please be sure that the registered email is current. You can check your email on the same page as changing your password (above).

For security reasons, changing your email will make your account inactive (you can't login) until you click on the email sent to the new address.

If you get stuck, please email us at bhadmin@bogleheads.org (Contact us) and we'll set you straight. For security, please supply your current email address.

-------------------
- Questions on password security and password managers can be found in the Personal Consumer Issues forum.

- Not related to the hijacked account, I wanted to mention that I would not use LastPass. LastPass users should consider changing all their passwords immediately. See: PSA - LastPass breach!

- If you really need to write down your passwords, you can make them more secure by adding random characters. See my post here: Re: PSA - LastPass breach!. Questions on this approach should be posted in the consumer issues forum.

- You can report a post using the(report post) in the top-right corner of the post. As we have several moderators, this is the fastest way to grab our attention. Many thanks to the members who do this - it's much appreciated.

Updated: Revised wording regarding LastPass.
Not sure why you are advising to avoid using Lastpass. They have a record of disclosing each and every security incident, unlike many other companies. It is only a matter of time before other online password managers are hacked as well.

As far as Lastpass security, all it was stolen is a small amount of encrypted password vaults. If your master password is strong enough (I.e. Not easily guessable by a dictionary attack), then it's going to be extremely difficult for whoever stole it to actually being able to decrypt it.
Despite its flaws a good password manager like Lastpass is still superior to every other alternative as it encourages to use complex passwords, unique for each site.

That said, because we know some information was stolen, I would strongly encourage every Lastpass user to:
1) change their master password, and make sure it's a strong enough password to make brute force attack unfeasible.
2) change both passwords and usernames for financial sites
3) make sure that you have at least 100,100 iterations set in lastpass : https://support.lastpass.com/help/how-d ... r-lastpass
Increasing it to 150,000 or higher is probably even better.

Edit : somehow a lot of people don't trust password managers, but every former colleague of mine (computer professionals, including security professionals) use password managers.
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by LadyGeek »

squirrel1963 wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 1:38 pm As far as Lastpass security, all it was stolen is a small amount of encrypted password vaults.
That wasn't the impression I got when I listened to Episode #904 of Security Now!: GRC | Security Now! Episode Archive - read the transcript.

Additionally, the LastPass vault does not encrypt everything. (Other password managers do.) Hackers can use that data (websites visited, etc.) to target specific accounts. They can also find the "low hanging fruit" for vaults that are easy to hack. Episode #905 delves into that, as they show how to decrypt the vault in PowerShell. See the Episode #905 show notes for the transcript.
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by LadyGeek »

squirrel1963 - I moved your post and my reply into the relevant discussion. Feel free to focus on LastPass here.
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by squirrel1963 »

LadyGeek wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 2:55 pm
squirrel1963 wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 1:38 pm As far as Lastpass security, all it was stolen is a small amount of encrypted password vaults.
That wasn't the impression I got when I listened to Episode #904 of Security Now!: GRC | Security Now! Episode Archive - read the transcript.

Additionally, the LastPass vault does not encrypt everything. (Other password managers do.) Hackers can use that data (websites visited, etc.) to target specific accounts. They can also find the "low hanging fruit" for vaults that are easy to hack. Episode #905 delves into that, as they show how to decrypt the vault in PowerShell. See the Episode #905 show notes for the transcript.
It's a real bummer that Lastpass stores the URL in clear, and yes it makes the relevant information easier to find (for instance they probably wouldn't care about decrypting the password for bogleheads and only concentrate on on E*Trade password). Still, username, password and secure notes are encrypted and that is what truly matters. Having URL exposed is nasty, but in the grand scheme of things security requires a holistic approach. Look at your security practices as a whole. Your password manager data is by far not the weakest point in security provided that (1) the number of iterations is high enough and different from the default (2) you use a master password strong enough and impossible to guess with a dictionary attack so that it would take too long to decrypt it. 20 random characters is probably long enough for security.

The following security best practices are far more important than than an attacked knowing your URLs:
(a) does you computer have all the updates, especially security updates?
(b) is your antivirus updated constantly?
(c) do you follow proper precautions and only download files which can be trusted? in particular for executables, do you only download executables which have been digitally signed?
(d) is your hard drive encrypted?
(e) is your computer firewall enabled?
(f) is the firewall on your home gateway enabled? is your home gateway secure enough? in particular, most consumer gateway/firewall are of very poor quality and I don't trust them. I use pfsense routing/firewall software on an minipc which is far better than most consumer alternatives.
(g) if you are using wi-fi, is your wi-fi password good enough?
(h) do you use two factor authentication for (h1) password manager (h2) financial sites and (h3) email? in this regard, i recommend not to use SMS text as two factor because it can be hi-jacked. You should use a soft-token authenticator like VIP Symantec (Fidelity and Schwab have this option) or a hard-token

Last but not least, knowing how to detect scam / spam / phishing is very important. Do not ever click on email links, always type URLs yourself.
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by lazydavid »

squirrel1963 wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 1:38 pm That said, because we know some information was stolen, I would strongly encourage every Lastpass user to:
1) change their master password, and make sure it's a strong enough password to make brute force attack unfeasible.
2) change both passwords and usernames for financial sites
3) make sure that you have at least 100,100 iterations set in lastpass : https://support.lastpass.com/help/how-d ... r-lastpass
Increasing it to 150,000 or higher is probably even better.
It's important to note, however that #1 on its own accomplishes absolutely nothing with regards to this breach. If your existing master password is easily broken, there's not a thing you can do about that at this point. Whatever is in your vault either is or will be known to the adversary.

Where #1 can have value is, as you point out, as a precursor for #2. If you replace your (currently easy-to-break) master password, and THEN update passwords for important sites, you are now protected. The passwords in the copy of your vault that was stolen are no longer valid, and your known master password cannot be used to get at the new ones.

That said, I've personally added a step 0 to the above, being migrate to 1Password. I've used and defended LastPass for years, but their handling of this breach has not been good at all. I have an extremely strong master password, so I am not concerned about my secrets getting out--in part because I've manually confirmed that they didn't store any of my secrets with CBC encryption. But I am no longer convinced that GoTo is capable of even defining words like "security" or "transparency" to my satisfaction, much less living up to them. And that's a bad place to be when you hold the keys to the kingdom.
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by HaveaNiceDay »

OWASP updated there standards for PBKDF2-HMAC-SHA256 to 600,000 iterations in Jan 2023 to keep up with advances in computing power.

Reference: https://cheatsheetseries.owasp.org/chea ... Sheet.html

LastPass isn't alone, 1Password currently has their iterations set at 100,000.

All these password managers need to adjust to meet current OWASP asap.
Please excuse the typos, it is my way of showing the post is authentic....
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by gavinsiu »

https://www.theverge.com/2023/1/24/2356 ... ackups-key

Looks like services offered by lastpass’s parent logmein has also been hacked. For example, the service they listed is go to pc which allow user to remote into the pc.

One indication of whether to stay or go is how lastpass fixes these issues
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by KarenC »

HaveaNiceDay wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:41 pm OWASP updated there standards for PBKDF2-HMAC-SHA256 to 600,000 iterations in Jan 2023 to keep up with advances in computing power.

Reference: https://cheatsheetseries.owasp.org/chea ... Sheet.html

LastPass isn't alone, 1Password currently has their iterations set at 100,000.

All these password managers need to adjust to meet current OWASP asap.
I don't have the technical knowledge to evaluate this myself, but 1Password claims that combining a "Secret Key" with the master password renders hacking attempts "virtually useless":
1Password uses PBKDF2 in the process of deriving encryption keys from your account password. Learn more about the key derivation process in the 1Password Security Design White Paper.

There are 100,000 iterations, or functions, of PBKDF2 in the current version of 1Password. This means anyone who tries to guess an account password needs to perform the same calculations. Any hacking attempts are virtually useless since your account password is combined with your Secret Key, which is only on your devices.
https://support.1password.com/pbkdf2/
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by lazydavid »

HaveaNiceDay wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:41 pm OWASP updated there standards for PBKDF2-HMAC-SHA256 to 600,000 iterations in Jan 2023 to keep up with advances in computing power.

Reference: https://cheatsheetseries.owasp.org/chea ... Sheet.html

LastPass isn't alone, 1Password currently has their iterations set at 100,000.

All these password managers need to adjust to meet current OWASP asap.
1Password's take on this is that these recommendations are designed to protect average-length, user-generated (ie weak) passwords from attack in a web application. Their use of the secret key provides far more protection than a greater iteration count. Going from 100,000 to 600,000 iterations makes your password 6 times more difficult to break. That's not nothing, but it's not much either. Adding a single random character to your password makes it 96 times more difficult to break, or 16 times more difficult than your current password with 600,000 iterations.

The secret key increases the length of your password by 40 completely random characters. And this key is never transmitted off of your device, so a breach at 1Password does not reduce its effectiveness in any way.

The only scenario that their approach does not provide significantly better overall security is if your vault and secret key are stolen off of your machine. If for some reason those are the only thing the attacker got, then they just have to crack your password, which yes would be 6x harder if the PBKDF2 iterations were increased. But chances are if they can get those things, they own your machine, and it's game over anyway. They don't need to crack your vault at all.

I'm not going to argue that it's a bad idea for them to make the change. I just don't feel they have a burning platform with their current approach.
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by HaveaNiceDay »

Good point about the probability of breaking passwords does not go up that much with more iterations relative to the protective effect of longer password for example.

However, I just don't get why password managers don't embrace standards and keep their products current. Standards matter in engineering, medicine, etc. Security should be in depth so if one layer is breached, others still hold to protect the customer. When a company like 1Password tries to say they have a superior method, in this case a "secret key" so the iteration standards don't apply to them, I think it gives many folks a sense of pause.

By all means, keep the "secret key" to set your business apart, but don't dismiss industry standards hike iterations. It could be a difference maker in a hack, no matter how small.
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by djmbob »

And there is more out today.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo ... d63ec5ed1e
If you’re a LastPass user or you use other GoTo products, you should ensure that your accounts are safe and your data is secure. Furthermore, if you still haven’t changed the passwords you stored in LastPass, you should do so as soon as you can. The hackers might never breach your encrypted passwords, but it’s better to be safe than sorry.
:annoyed
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by fetch5482 »

Just updated my iteration count to 1 million in Bitwarden. Hardly see any noticable performance impact on desktop or mobile. I recommend you do it as well if you haven't already.
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by Blues »

Why stop at a measly million?

(sarcasm)

I don't know enough to know what's enough. I have a few hundred k and will wait to see if Bitwarden has any further input on the matter.
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by fetch5482 »

Blues wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:08 pm Why stop at a measly million?

(sarcasm)

I don't know enough to know what's enough. I have a few hundred k and will wait to see if Bitwarden has any further input on the matter.
I believe bitwarden caps it at 2 million.
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by mark_in_denver »

HaveaNiceDay wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:27 am Good point about the probability of breaking passwords does not go up that much with more iterations relative to the protective effect of longer password for example.

However, I just don't get why password managers don't embrace standards and keep their products current. Standards matter in engineering, medicine, etc. Security should be in depth so if one layer is breached, others still hold to protect the customer. When a company like 1Password tries to say they have a superior method, in this case a "secret key" so the iteration standards don't apply to them, I think it gives many folks a sense of pause.

By all means, keep the "secret key" to set your business apart, but don't dismiss industry standards hike iterations. It could be a difference maker in a hack, no matter how small.
I'm not sure what the standard iteration count is. My LP account is at 100k. Older accounts I believe were around 500, but the user needs to actively change it so it can decrypt and recrypt their vault. They would have to enter their password for this process.

I'm not big on requiring a secret key, what if I lost that.

I really like the grid option as a backup 2FA in LP in case I lost my phone or computer or both.
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by fetch5482 »

mark_in_denver wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:44 pm I'm not sure what the standard iteration count is. My LP account is at 100k. Older accounts I believe were around 500, but the user needs to actively change it so it can decrypt and recrypt their vault. They would have to enter their password for this process.

I'm not big on requiring a secret key, what if I lost that.

I really like the grid option as a backup 2FA in LP in case I lost my phone or computer or both.
Bitwarden only supports SHA-256, so I am basing that as an assumption. The iteration counts can be lower with SHA-512 or stronger alternatives.

FIPS compliance requires 300K iteration counts afaik. So that to me seems like a minimum.
OWASP recommends 600K iterations as of Jan 2023; so that to me seems like a reasonable target to hit if you have modern laptops and devices.

IOW, somewhere between these numbers seem like a reasonable default in my mind. No standards does not mean there are no reasonable minimums.
I love Bitwarden, but they seem to default to 100K iterations which seems low to me. I had mine set to 300K for a long time. After listening to the podcast linked above by ladygeek I decided to change mine to 1 million.

I agree this still does not replace for the need of a long password with diversity of character sets; security is always in layers. Defense in depth.
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by mark_in_denver »

fetch5482 wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:20 pm
mark_in_denver wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:44 pm I'm not sure what the standard iteration count is. My LP account is at 100k. Older accounts I believe were around 500, but the user needs to actively change it so it can decrypt and recrypt their vault. They would have to enter their password for this process.

I'm not big on requiring a secret key, what if I lost that.

I really like the grid option as a backup 2FA in LP in case I lost my phone or computer or both.
Bitwarden only supports SHA-256, so I am basing that as an assumption. The iteration counts can be lower with SHA-512 or stronger alternatives.

FIPS compliance requires 300K iteration counts afaik. So that to me seems like a minimum.
OWASP recommends 600K iterations as of Jan 2023; so that to me seems like a reasonable target to hit if you have modern laptops and devices.

IOW, somewhere between these numbers seem like a reasonable default in my mind. No standards does not mean there are no reasonable minimums.
I love Bitwarden, but they seem to default to 100K iterations which seems low to me. I had mine set to 300K for a long time. After listening to the podcast linked above by ladygeek I decided to change mine to 1 million.

I agree this still does not replace for the need of a long password with diversity of character sets; security is always in layers. Defense in depth.
Even at 100,000 iterations my back of the napkin calculation for a password generated from a 16 character spaces using the 95 character set at random and assuming 1T hashes per second that in 140 billion years, you'll have a 1 in a million chance to obtain the password. Perhaps to add much more complexity the next version of password managers can add extended ascii characters. Now your character set is 256.
Last edited by mark_in_denver on Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by Nicolas »

Blues wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:08 pm Why stop at a measly million?

(sarcasm)

I don't know enough to know what's enough. I have a few hundred k and will wait to see if Bitwarden has any further input on the matter.
I went to two million, because I could. I tried to go to five but Bitwarden tops out at two. Why wouldn’t you? There doesn’t seem to be any downside. I don’t notice any speed difference.
Last edited by Nicolas on Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by fetch5482 »

mark_in_denver wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:45 pm
fetch5482 wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:20 pm
mark_in_denver wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:44 pm I'm not sure what the standard iteration count is. My LP account is at 100k. Older accounts I believe were around 500, but the user needs to actively change it so it can decrypt and recrypt their vault. They would have to enter their password for this process.

I'm not big on requiring a secret key, what if I lost that.

I really like the grid option as a backup 2FA in LP in case I lost my phone or computer or both.
Bitwarden only supports SHA-256, so I am basing that as an assumption. The iteration counts can be lower with SHA-512 or stronger alternatives.

FIPS compliance requires 300K iteration counts afaik. So that to me seems like a minimum.
OWASP recommends 600K iterations as of Jan 2023; so that to me seems like a reasonable target to hit if you have modern laptops and devices.

IOW, somewhere between these numbers seem like a reasonable default in my mind. No standards does not mean there are no reasonable minimums.
I love Bitwarden, but they seem to default to 100K iterations which seems low to me. I had mine set to 300K for a long time. After listening to the podcast linked above by ladygeek I decided to change mine to 1 million.

I agree this still does not replace for the need of a long password with diversity of character sets; security is always in layers. Defense in depth.
Even at 100,000 iterations my back of the napkin calculation for a password generated from a 16 character spaces using the 95 character set at random and assuming 1T hashes per second that in 140 billion years, you'll have a 1 in a million chance to obtain the password. Perhaps to add much more complexity the next version of password managers can add extended ascii characters. Now your character set is 256.
You should read up this thread: https://github.com/bitwarden/jslib/issues/52
TLDR is that that you can "crack" it faster than the math you had above. I'm not an expert on this, but it seems that PBKDF2 itself has some limitations that are addressed in argon2.

Good news is that bitwarden seems to be increasing the default iterations to 600K (for new accounts only) and double encryption, and also parallelly working on argon2 support (no ETA). This looks like a step in the right direction. It seems however that existing accounts will retain the 100K default unless the account owner changes it on their own.

https://community.bitwarden.com/t/bitwa ... port/49680
Last edited by fetch5482 on Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by Mordoch »

mark_in_denver wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:45 pmEven at 100,000 iterations my back of the napkin calculation for a password generated from a 16 character spaces using the 95 character set at random and assuming 1T hashes per second that in 140 billion years, you'll have a 1 in a million chance to obtain the password. Perhaps to add much more complexity the next version of password managers can add extended ascii characters. Now your character set is 256.
The big question is whether your master password is truly that completely random and unique in terms of characters, numbers, and symbols. That tends to make it significantly tougher to memorize. If it is, you are right that 100,000 iterations are plenty. The main argument for higher numbers is an extra margin of safety if your password is not quite that random (like a pass phrase or maybe diceware) especially if you inadvertently blunder and your master password is not quite as secure as you think. (Diceware strictly speaking is random, it just does not have the security with its basic implementation of a 16 character password unless it was pretty excessively long.) The inherent big argument is if it is not noticeable in terms of a delay, going for a higher number of iterations up to a certain level is a straightforward way to get a bit more security.
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Re: PSA - LastPass breach!

Post by mark_in_denver »

Mordoch wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:42 am
mark_in_denver wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:45 pmEven at 100,000 iterations my back of the napkin calculation for a password generated from a 16 character spaces using the 95 character set at random and assuming 1T hashes per second that in 140 billion years, you'll have a 1 in a million chance to obtain the password. Perhaps to add much more complexity the next version of password managers can add extended ascii characters. Now your character set is 256.
The big question is whether your master password is truly that completely random in terms of characters, numbers, and symbols. That tends to make it significantly tougher to memorize. If it is, you are right that 100,000 iterations are plenty. The main argument for higher numbers is an extra margin of safety if your password is not quite that random (like a pass phrase or maybe diceware) especially if you inadvertently blunder and your master password is not quite as secure as you think. (Diceware strictly speaking is random, it just does not have the security with its basic implementation of a 16 character password unless it was pretty excessively long.) The inherent big argument is if it is not noticeable in terms of a delay, going for a higher number of iterations up to a certain level is a straightforward way to get a bit more security.
Absolutely. The less random it is, needs to be made up with a wider character space.
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