All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

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4nursebee
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by 4nursebee »

bertilak wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:38 pm All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me!

My current thinking is that an all-electric is not the best choice for anyone not living close to a city where charging stations are plentiful, so a hybrid is the sweet spot. Runs on electric, if charged, switches to ICE if not and charges the battery as you go.

Can hybrids both self-charge and use charging stations?

What if you don't live in/near a city or expect to drive long distances to remote destinations, for example to national parks, US or otherwise,

Downside I see is the complexity and extra cost of two complete power systems. I don't know if this is a valid concern. Perhaps the electric technology is not yet competitive with ICE?

So, what am I missing in my thinking/understanding?

I don't think you are teachable or really interested in learning.
My experiences suggests your thinking is incorrect.
After asking to be taught, you then further on in the forum seem to already have conclusions absent real data.

So much of what has been absorbed by the public on Tesla is untrue.
There is no ecosystem of EV even close in ease of use, speed, or availability.
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by bertilak »

4nursebee wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 6:42 am I don't think you are teachable or really interested in learning.
My experiences suggests your thinking is incorrect.
After asking to be taught, you then further on in the forum seem to already have conclusions absent real data.

So much of what has been absorbed by the public on Tesla is untrue.
There is no ecosystem of EV even close in ease of use, speed, or availability.
Do I notice someone feeding the negativity?
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RobLyons
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by RobLyons »

earlywynnfan wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:21 pm
RobLyons wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 5:24 am
happyisland wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 7:13 am
RobLyons wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:10 am
happyisland wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:35 pm Two reasons why I am looking forward to replacing my aging ICE vehicles with all-electrics is the lack of maintenance issues (oil changes, etc) and never having to stop at a gas station again. So to me an EV is strongly preferable to a hybrid.

To me, a hybrid or plug in hybrid is superior to an EV due to
1.) MSRP
2.) Equipment needed to home charge
3.) Amount of time needed to charge up vs fuel up
4.) Maintenance is not as big a problem as EV enthusiasts lead you to believe

1.) EVs are still much more expensive than ICE or hybrids/plug in hybrids. My Prius was $24k brand new. (Now they are $27-$33k). EVs are $66k on average. Cheaper if you want a bolt, which I absolutely do not want.

2.) I just had solar installed ($28k) and still need to hire an electrician for about $800 - $1,000 to install the car charging port. Of course, you don't NEED solar, or fast charger but then you are trickle charging off electricity, which takes forever and is just as expensive as gas, if not more expensive.

3.) Fueling up an ICE is less than 5 minutes, once every two - 3 weeks. Charging an EV is daily. I dread the range anxiety. I see how much we charge our cell phones. We hate going below 50%. Now my car will add to that anxiety.

4.) My only maintenance for my hybrid is twice a year oil changes that I pay $20 each, then wipers, filters, tire rotations and brakes just like an EV. First 2 years of maintenance is free from Toyota.
I hear you that the EVs are pricier (although a used Leaf looks like pretty good value for money). But I guess I'm an 'EV enthusiast', since I definitely find the cost-benefit of an EV versus an ICE vehicle to be compelling.
Refueling: strong win for the EV, since I will just plug the car in at home. With an ICE I have to monitor fuel levels and periodically go to a gas station - an extra chore.
Maintenance: another strong win for the EV, since I won't have to deal with oil changes, etc. Also, in the long run, given the comparative mechanical simplicity of the EV, there should be far less time spent with the car in the shop.
Range anxiety: this isn't an issue for me, since I never drive more than 200 miles in a single day. The funny thing is, since I hate going to the gas station, I frequently experience range anxiety with my current ICE vehicle, since I let it get almost totally empty before I re-fuel.

So it sounds like we're coming at this from different angles, but different strokes, right? :sharebeer

It's great to be an enthusiast but sometimes our enthusiasm warps our point of view.

Sounds like you are bothered by briefly stopping at a gas station once every 3 weeks to gas up but plugging in and unplugging every day isn't an issue.
Most people would find plugging in and unplugging much more bothersome, especially those without garages and in adverse weather. Now it's winter. Snow. Sleet. Ice.

For half the price, I will take the hybrid with a couple yearly oil changes every time.

The Leaf is impractical. Terrible range and 35 hours to trickle charge from empty? Older models can't even get 100 miles. Minus 10 miles if you need heat for your commute. Not a good daily driver.
Interesting, do you actually have an EV? I'm in the north, with an EV comparable to the Leaf. No garage, currently snow on the ground. Have a charger installed on the back of my house, cost $800 10+ years ago. Takes a few seconds when I get out of the car to plug it in, which I usually do every 2-3 days. It's been a perfect daily driver.

Currently I do not have an EV. I'm highly interested, and future customer. My timeline is 3 years, which will hopefully be perfect for the EV market to ramp up production and ramp down prices (fingers crossed).

But I previously owned a Chevy Volt. The charge port used to freeze. Snow would be all over the charger and melt in my car, wetting the seats or making a puddle in the trunk. So I had a towel to wipe it down (just another chore). I don't have an upgraded charger and no outlets next to my driveway so I would have to take the trickle charger out, unravel it, plug in, then run it over my fence and plug in. Leaving for work, unplug, ravel up, go through my gate, unplug then pack up. When I got to work I could plug in to the outlet but it wouldn't trickle charge to full. My electric bill went up more than the cost of gas. Right now I spend about $30 every 3 weeks in the hybrid. I believe my bill increased $90 monthly.

So that experience wasn't ideal but for someone with a fast home charger with a garage I'm sure it's a much better experience.
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by RobLyons »

Pdxnative wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:56 pm
RobLyons wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 7:16 am
When EV prices come down closer to ICE prices, I will be a buyer.
I’m not trying to talk you or anyone else into an EV. But I’ve seen some version of this price claim throughout this thread, so I thought it might be worth looking at the numbers.

Msrp of a base model Corolla: $21,500
Msrp of base leaf: $28,500
Cost of leaf after fed tax credit:$21,000

(The leaf is made in North America so remains eligible for the credit this year. Guidance for next year to come later this year).

Many states offer additional tax incentives for an EV purchase.

I use the Corolla as an example because it was mentioned upthread. The Leaf is the closest comparison in the same category (and in my view a nicer car). Note that a hybrid Corolla is more expensive.

So, a Leaf is at least $500 cheaper, and in many states thousands of $ cheaper, than a comparable ICE vehicle.

Yes, installing a charger isn’t free (it also isn’t necessary for those driving less than 40 or so miles per day). But there is now a federal tax credit of 30% for all those costs and many local utilities subsidize the cost of the charger. So those costs after taxes might range from a few hundred to maybe a thousand for a typical setup.

In the end, after-tax costs of *comparable* vehicles are roughly equivalent, even after charging upgrades to the home.

People can make their decisions about whether an EV fits their lifestyle, living situation, road-trip needs, etc. But they should look at the actual numbers if cost is the concern.

I agree with your assessment and conclusion. But I don't want a leaf, nor a corolla. Design is a concern. I just don't like the style. Range is a concern. Lack of charging areas and length of charging times are concerns. Is there another EV in that price range with a better style, more room?

I'm in a Prius currently and it fits my commute and lifestyle perfectly. I can take a day trip to the mountains up north, the beach on the south shore in the summer, visit family, etc with gas stations everywhere that I honestly don't need because I have a 500 mile range vs the 150 of the Leaf, but gas stations nonetheless that are everywhere should I forget that I had only half a tank when I left. I only wish the backseats of the Prius were a little more roomy.

With charging stations you still have to plan your journey, find where these stations are, then plug in and wait and make other plans. I'd rather make my own plans than to have my car's range alter my plans.

Waiting on an EV SUV for the wife, hopefully sub $40k but unlikely, and a nice sporty sedan for me like the Tesla M3P, under $50k. So I'm not completely pro ICE :D
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by JackoC »

iamlucky13 wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:06 pm
02nz wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 6:00 pm
greg24 wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:13 pm
trinc wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:27 pmI didn't see in any responses the issues being in the northern part of the country, lower battery efficiency & greater drain with heater load.
ICE cars in northern climates get lower fuel efficiency in the Winter, but I rarely see that mentioned.
It's probably partly because ICE cars are so inherently inefficient that, in relative terms, the efficiency loss in winter isn't as significant as with EVs. Not a great argument for ICE vehicles though.
In a way yes. It's mainly because ICE's warm the cabin using waste heat they were already producing. EV's have to expend energy they weren't already expending to do so.

There's some other factors like reduced battery discharge efficiency or battery heating on very cold days to ensure proper performance, but I would say for typical use, cabin heating is the most significant factor in reduced winter EV range.

The reduced range should also be a much more significant if doing lots of short trips compared to a long trip where the car reaches a steady temperature and just cruises. This is part of why there is a lot of confusion about this topic - individual experiences with EV's are all over the place as a result.

For what it's worth, my ICE car has been showing about 8% lower mileage in the winter compared to the summer. I don't have any solid numbers, but from comparing trip meter readings at different points in my 25-30 minute commute, I suspect that the lower energy density of the winter blend is a slightly more dominant factor than the longer warmup time.
Also all cars suffer in winter from the (avoidable) tendency to let the tire pressure go down and the (unavoidable) effect of denser cold air on air resistance at highway speeds. Actual snow, slush etc on road causes resistance too, and most ICE cars nowadays have electric heating devices (seat, steering wheel, mirror, electric defrosters, etc) though main heat source for cabin air is engine waste heat vs EV using also using electrical resistance for that. This link gives some % numbers for different categories and graphs for different ICE models. It's from Canada but starts with US EPA's estimate of 12-28% hit to fuel economy for ICE's in urban commuting in winter, whereas fuel energy difference is only 1.5-3% (US sources on that are similar). Also, not mentioned there, the ICE itself is slightly more thermodynamically efficient at lower air intake temperature, the negative effects are just bigger. I've tracked winter mpg drop on various ICE cars being at least 10%.
https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/sites/www.nrcan ... et_3_e.pdf

How many ICE v EV comparisons really come down to differential condition-specific changes in energy cost though? Seems the issues with EV/winter is usually if winter conditions cause range anxiety in a driving pattern where the warm weather range is sufficient.
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by delamer »

bertilak wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 7:42 am
4nursebee wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 6:42 am I don't think you are teachable or really interested in learning.
My experiences suggests your thinking is incorrect.
After asking to be taught, you then further on in the forum seem to already have conclusions absent real data.

So much of what has been absorbed by the public on Tesla is untrue.
There is no ecosystem of EV even close in ease of use, speed, or availability.
Do I notice someone feeding the negativity?
HAH!
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RJC
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by RJC »

In my experience, it's hard to tell if Tesla owners are being objective because they are all-in with the company (mission, CEO, stock, etc.).

I own a Tesla and am glad the competition is catching up. Lots of quality and customer service issues still.
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by Northern Flicker »

Valuethinker wrote: Do you remember the winter when the first 4 function calculators became widely available? (1974 I think?). Cost a couple of hundred bucks? Borrowing Dad's calculator was a big privilege.
No, but I remember purchasing an HP-21 "electronic slide rule" calculator that was much more than a 4-function one for $119 in 1975. That was a big drop in price from the HP-35 that it replaced. Unlike the HP-21, The HP-35 was well beyond the budget of a high school student with a summer job. I think we are getting close to that type of a transition point with EV's. When purchase price matches that of an ICE car, the EV will be a clear winner on cost.
My postings represent my opinion, and never should be construed as a recommendation to buy, sell, or hold any particular investment.
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by telemark »

Northern Flicker wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 12:16 pm
Valuethinker wrote: Do you remember the winter when the first 4 function calculators became widely available? (1974 I think?). Cost a couple of hundred bucks? Borrowing Dad's calculator was a big privilege.
No, but I remember purchasing an HP-21 "electronic slide rule" calculator that was much more than a 4-function one for $119 in 1975. That was a big drop in price from the HP-35 that it replaced. Unlike the HP-21, The HP-35 was well beyond the budget of a high school student with a summer job. I think we are getting close to that type of a transition point with EV's. When purchase price matches that of an ICE car, the EV will be a clear winner on cost.
I remember the HP-35 because my seventh grade math teacher bought one. In 1972 $395 was a lot of money. At some point in high school I bought the Sinclair Scientific as a kit for, I think, $39.95 and put it together. The Sinclair was in no way comparable to the HP, but it did have the values of e and pi conveniently printed on the case :D Much later I got a solar powered 4 function calculator that a local grocery store was giving away as a promotion.

Regrettably, there seems to be no equivalent of Moore's law for battery storage.
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by just frank »

telemark wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:03 pm Regrettably, there seems to be no equivalent of Moore's law for battery storage.
Depends on which Moore's law you are talking about. Most technology sees prices fall as a power-law of the cumulative amount produced. Often over decades of cost. Learning curves.

Most notably this has been true of PV panels AND lithium batteries.
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by telemark »

bertilak wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 6:08 pm
02nz wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 6:00 pm
greg24 wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:13 pm
trinc wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:27 pmI didn't see in any responses the issues being in the northern part of the country, lower battery efficiency & greater drain with heater load.
ICE cars in northern climates get lower fuel efficiency in the Winter, but I rarely see that mentioned.
It's probably partly because ICE cars are so inherently inefficient that, in relative terms, the efficiency loss in winter isn't as significant as with EVs. Not a great argument for ICE vehicles though.
Also, gas is (or was) cheap and there are gas stations everywhere.

If you measure efficiency by how easily they get you from place to place, they are very efficient.
We're looking at radically different strengths and weaknesses. Gasoline wins hands down on energy density and ease of handling, even compared to the best new battery technologies*. Electric motors win hands down on efficiency, simplicity, low emissions, torque, and the ability to run at widely varying speeds -- you will never worry about killing the engine with an electric. and you don't need a complicated transmission. There are inherent limits on the efficiency of any heat engine, and internal combustion engines are well into diminishing returns, at the cost of high complexity and some really impressive engineering. Battery technology, on the other hand, has improved dramatically. At some point the advantages of electric motors will outweigh the disadvantages of battery storage: we're in an interesting period of history where the exact crossover depends on a lot of varying factors.

* What ever happened to the super capacitor someone claimed to have invented, back in the oughts I think? That would be a game changer if only it existed.
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by cyclist »

Sigh. I am no fan of Mr. Musk on SO many levels.

But we picked up a Tesla 3 last week and went on a road trip this weekend. Everything about the experience was smooth and seamless, including picking up the car and a couple of brief Supercharging stops in the I-95 corridor on Thanksgiving weekend.

Other than the price - and the guy in charge - I have no complaints. Charging at home and on the road are equally easy, with exactly nothing to do except insert the plug. (The car even rerouted us automatically to a less busy Supercharger.) The only difference is the electrons at home are 100% solar-powered. And they’re by far the majority of what we’ll use.

In time perhaps other manufacturers and other charging systems will be this easy. But I suspect it may take a while for most.
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by Starbase »

cyclist wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:16 pm Sigh. I am no fan of Mr. Musk on SO many levels.

But we picked up a Tesla 3 last week and went on a road trip this weekend. Everything about the experience was smooth and seamless, including picking up the car and a couple of brief Supercharging stops in the I-95 corridor on Thanksgiving weekend.

Other than the price - and the guy in charge - I have no complaints. Charging at home and on the road are equally easy, with exactly nothing to do except insert the plug. (The car even rerouted us automatically to a less busy Supercharger.) The only difference is the electrons at home are 100% solar-powered. And they’re by far the majority of what we’ll use.

In time perhaps other manufacturers and other charging systems will be this easy. But I suspect it may take a while for most.
How much did you pay for the Tesla?
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by Humility101 »

Jus get a Toyota Rav4 hybrid XSE. Best purchase Ive ever made. Great interior, lots of great tech, no plug in required, best purchase Ive ever made. And if you really wanna go hard and fast, get the Prime, its sweet looking.
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by cyclist »

Starbase wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:05 am How much did you pay for the Tesla?
I got a Model 3 Long Range. My price for the car itself was $56k. They currently sell for $58k. No one knows exactly what the price of that model will be in 2023, but it seems likely that they will remove or disable something to get it under the $55k limit for sedans to qualify for tax incentives under the Inflation Reduction Act.

I also paid $8k for their “enhanced autopilot”. Not a necessity or economically efficient by any means, but it provides capabilities that I personally value for long highway trips.
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by andypanda »

My fishing buddy was telling me a little about his step-daughter's ongoing experience with a 3-month-old Ford Hybrid. It's been at the dealer for 5 weeks and they say they don't know what it wrong with it. He suspects they know, but can't or won't get the part - it seems to be a computer problem given the daily randomness of when it quits running. They aren't sure why the stop/start system doesn't start. Everything on the car seems to be interconnected and isolating the problem is beyond them.

His wife bought it for the newlyweds and it's been a royal pain. She is pursuing a lemon law violation.

I'll get the details at some point. Yesterday at lunch we were all talking sports, holiday food and more jovial guy things than broken down new cars.
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by LadyGeek »

I removed an off-topic interchange regarding Elon Musk. Please stay on-topic.
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by JPM »

EVs are popular in states with warm weather and large affluent populations. California had almost 39% of all US registrations in 2021 and Washington, Arizona, Texas, and Florida had about 5% each.

California also has particularly high cost gasoline for ICE vehicles and a particularly favorable climate for solar generation of electricity making the time to break-even on total costs shorter.

There are relatively few registrations among the other northern tier states where gasoline is less expensive and solar is relatively impractical compared to the southern tier states.
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by quantAndHold »

andypanda wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:17 am My fishing buddy was telling me a little about his step-daughter's ongoing experience with a 3-month-old Ford Hybrid. It's been at the dealer for 5 weeks and they say they don't know what it wrong with it. He suspects they know, but can't or won't get the part - it seems to be a computer problem given the daily randomness of when it quits running. They aren't sure why the stop/start system doesn't start. Everything on the car seems to be interconnected and isolating the problem is beyond them.

His wife bought it for the newlyweds and it's been a royal pain. She is pursuing a lemon law violation.

I'll get the details at some point. Yesterday at lunch we were all talking sports, holiday food and more jovial guy things than broken down new cars.
Yes, but that’s a Ford thing, not a hybrid thing. I have two different friends in the same situation with their new Ford Bronco Sports. One of them just did a lemon law return.
Yes, I’m really that pedantic.
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by Dakotah »

I've had my Rav4 Prime for about 18 months now. I love it. Good EV range, good MPG in hybrid mode, good power...and still has good ground clearance (which was a concern I had with most EVs). I had a Prius prior to this, and this was certainly a great upgrade on all fronts...but PHEVs are a strange beast overall. You really need to know what you're getting into, how it fits your potentially use-case, and how to maximize it. If you are unable/unwilling to plug it in every day, it's probably not for you. If most of your driving is long-distance, it's probably not for you. Public-charging typically doesn't make sense...since PHEVs usually don't have fast-charging abilities, and the cost of driving on public-charging derived EV range is often more expensive than just driving it with the ICE. In the right use-case, PHEVs are ideal...but it requires more user consideration than regular hybrids, and maybe even full EVs.
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by JackoC »

JPM wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:58 pm EVs are popular in states with warm weather and large affluent populations. California had almost 39% of all US registrations in 2021 and Washington, Arizona, Texas, and Florida had about 5% each.

California also has particularly high cost gasoline for ICE vehicles and a particularly favorable climate for solar generation of electricity making the time to break-even on total costs shorter.

There are relatively few registrations among the other northern tier states where gasoline is less expensive and solar is relatively impractical compared to the southern tier states.
2019 trip starting in LA (our BMW M2 was trucked there from NJ, flew to meet it) to norcal then back across the country with a good deal more north/south, Tesla's in LA kind of like inner NY area level, but in Silicon Valley rush hour amazing concentration of them (also 4 BMW M3's spotted there in 10 minutes, besides that and a couple of M4's in LA we saw zero other M cars in 6,000 miles, mainly off Interstates). 'Flyover country' off the Interstates, days without seeing a Tesla, still true on our 2021 trip almost to the West Coast and back on the M2's own wheels (I recall two Tesla's charging at a station where US-95, low traffic north-south road in NV we were on crosses I-80). But lots of other stuff is also skewed like that, and just because you call some beliefs/motives for buying/not buying EV's 'off topic' doesn't mean they aren't real, and sometimes behind statements about 'on topic' reasons, pro or con. Differences in gas prices and solar subsidies (and sunshine) is *part* of it I agree, as well as Tesla's having been quite expensive cars especially before the Model 3.
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by Pdxnative »

JPM wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:58 pm EVs are popular in states with warm weather and large affluent populations. California had almost 39% of all US registrations in 2021 and Washington, Arizona, Texas, and Florida had about 5% each.

California also has particularly high cost gasoline for ICE vehicles and a particularly favorable climate for solar generation of electricity making the time to break-even on total costs shorter.

There are relatively few registrations among the other northern tier states where gasoline is less expensive and solar is relatively impractical compared to the southern tier states.
To measure popularity you’d look not at total registrations (which would correlate with population) but at per capita registrations. Most of the data I’ve seen on that includes states like Washington, Oregon, Colorado, Vermont, MA in the top 5-10 EV adopting states along with states like California. So I don’t think there’s much evidence for solar practicality or warm weather correlating with EV adoption.

Low electricity prices in the PNW might be part of the reason adoption is high, as well as state and local incentives, urban populations, and cultural factors.
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Post by Bogle7 »

We just replaced our ICE car with a VW ID.4 the day before Thanksgiving.
We are a single car family and have been for 13+ years.
3 days in, we really like our new BEV.
I fail to see the advantages of having ICE and BEV in the same package.

As a side note, the amount of computer in the UI is overwhelming.
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by 02nz »

Bogle7 wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 8:11 pm I fail to see the advantages of having ICE and BEV in the same package.
The advantage is to have a much smaller (less costly) battery that gets enough electric range for daily commuting use, while also being freed from range anxiety for longer trips.
Bogle7 wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 8:11 pm As a side note, the amount of computer in the UI is overwhelming.
That's not an EV thing, though, and VW has gotten a ton of bad reviews for the UI in the ID cars. Supposedly "it'll be fixed in a software update" ...
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by hicabob »

The 2023 Prius Prime seems super attractive and to be available in a couple months. A relatively FAST (0-60 in < 7 secs) plugin Prius w/ 4wd and good looks too. 37 miles electric only also.

https://www.toyota.com/upcoming-vehicles/priusprime/
Pdxnative
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by Pdxnative »

02nz wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 8:17 pm VW has gotten a ton of bad reviews for the UI in the ID cars. Supposedly "it'll be fixed in a software update" ...
That was true for the 2021 models. But the 2022s shipped with updated software and I haven’t seen many complaints about lag like there were for the 2021s. However, as far as I know the 2021s are still waiting for the update because it will require a dealer visit. I think this winter is when they are planning that.

Not disagreeing with your point, just wanted people to be aware this was mostly an issue with one model year.
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Re: BEV

Post by delamer »

Bogle7 wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 8:11 pm We just replaced our ICE car with a VW ID.4 the day before Thanksgiving.
We are a single car family and have been for 13+ years.
3 days in, we really like our new BEV.
I fail to see the advantages of having ICE and BEV in the same package.

As a side note, the amount of computer in the UI is overwhelming.
I don’t understand what you mean by “the amount of computer.” Is the UI too crowded?
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by andypanda »

"Yes, but that’s a Ford thing, not a hybrid thing."

Obviously.
mrb09
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by mrb09 »

Pdxnative wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 7:56 pm
JPM wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:58 pm EVs are popular in states with warm weather and large affluent populations. California had almost 39% of all US registrations in 2021 and Washington, Arizona, Texas, and Florida had about 5% each.

California also has particularly high cost gasoline for ICE vehicles and a particularly favorable climate for solar generation of electricity making the time to break-even on total costs shorter.

There are relatively few registrations among the other northern tier states where gasoline is less expensive and solar is relatively impractical compared to the southern tier states.
To measure popularity you’d look not at total registrations (which would correlate with population) but at per capita registrations. Most of the data I’ve seen on that includes states like Washington, Oregon, Colorado, Vermont, MA in the top 5-10 EV adopting states along with states like California. So I don’t think there’s much evidence for solar practicality or warm weather correlating with EV adoption.

Low electricity prices in the PNW might be part of the reason adoption is high, as well as state and local incentives, urban populations, and cultural factors.
In Oregon, there’s also a $2500 instant rebate, it came right off the purchase price. And there’s pretty good charging infrastructure, at least north-south along 5. Our local utility paid for the EVSE (garage charger), and our electricity prices are pretty low. All things that Pdxnative mentioned.

This was agreeing with the post, not explaining Oregon to “pdxnative” :)
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by bertilak »

Pdxnative wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 8:33 pm
02nz wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 8:17 pm VW has gotten a ton of bad reviews for the UI in the ID cars. Supposedly "it'll be fixed in a software update" ...
However, as far as I know the 2021s are still waiting for the update because it will require a dealer visit. I think this winter is when they are planning that.
Requiring a dealer visit to install a software update shows they haven't got their act together yet. I have a 2017 VW Passat and have the following complaints:
  • Only way to update the GPS maps is to buy an upgrade delivered on a USB card ($100), from a third party, The dealer can't (won't?) do it. No one can even tell you how up to date the update will be. There was working connectivity because, before the next problem cropped up, one could look up destinations on your computer and upload them to the car.
  • The support/help/phone app/etc. system no longer works because it depends on a discontinued phone data plan. There is no update available for my car. Other VW models of the same year can be updated but the Passat is a discontinued model and older ones are no longer supported.
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by bertilak »

Pdxnative wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 8:33 pm
02nz wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 8:17 pm VW has gotten a ton of bad reviews for the UI in the ID cars. Supposedly "it'll be fixed in a software update" ...
However, as far as I know the 2021s are still waiting for the update because it will require a dealer visit. I think this winter is when they are planning that.
Requiring a dealer visit to install a software update shows they haven't got their act together yet. I have a 2017 VW Passat and have the following complaints:
  • The only way to update the GPS maps is to buy an upgrade delivered on a USB card ($100), from a third party. The dealer can't (won't?) do it. No one can even tell you how up to date the update will be. There was working connectivity because, before the next problem cropped up, one could look up destinations on your computer and upload them to the car.
  • The support/help/phone app/etc. system no longer works because it depends on a discontinued phone data plan. There is no update available for my car. Other VW models of the same year can be updated but the Passat is a discontinued model and the older ones are no longer supported.
May neither drought nor rain nor blizzard disturb the joy juice in your gizzard. -- Squire Omar Barker (aka S.O.B.), the Cowboy Poet
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by stoptothink »

hicabob wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 8:18 pm The 2023 Prius Prime seems super attractive and to be available in a couple months. A relatively FAST (0-60 in < 7 secs) plugin Prius w/ 4wd and good looks too. 37 miles electric only also.

https://www.toyota.com/upcoming-vehicles/priusprime/
If we need a car in the next 5yrs (our '17 VW jetta should last as wife's primary commuter, but it is a VW), this is what we'd be looking at. I'm not sure we're ready for a full EV before that. With the Hyundai Ioniq hybrid discontinued, it'll probably be the most efficient hybrid. A sporty-looking hybrid, with some power, from Toyota; I was (pleasantly) shocked when details started to emerge.
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by neilpilot »

bertilak wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:00 am
Pdxnative wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 8:33 pm
02nz wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 8:17 pm VW has gotten a ton of bad reviews for the UI in the ID cars. Supposedly "it'll be fixed in a software update" ...
However, as far as I know the 2021s are still waiting for the update because it will require a dealer visit. I think this winter is when they are planning that.
Requiring a dealer visit to install a software update shows they haven't got their act together yet. I have a 2017 VW Passat and have the following complaints:
  • Only way to update the GPS maps is to buy an upgrade delivered on a USB card ($100), from a third party, The dealer can't (won't?) do it. No one can even tell you how up to date the update will be. There was working connectivity because, before the next problem cropped up, one could look up destinations on your computer and upload them to the car.
  • The support/help/phone app/etc. system no longer works because it depends on a discontinued phone data plan. There is no update available for my car. Other VW models of the same year can be updated but the Passat is a discontinued model and older ones are no longer supported.
"Requiring a dealer visit to install a software update shows they haven't got their act together yet." Your statement implies that VW doesn't have their software act together and could be misinterpreted. Failure to update the 2021 ID.4 isn't due to software limitations, but due to a substandard 12v battery. A dealer visit for the first update is needed since a new 12v must be installed first.

Also, the requirement to install a different 12v battery hasn't affected GPS updates. While the 2021 ID.4's operating software update is delayed, the GPS navigation has received several OTA updates over the 18 months I've owned the EV.
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by runninginvestor »

stoptothink wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:06 am
hicabob wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 8:18 pm The 2023 Prius Prime seems super attractive and to be available in a couple months. A relatively FAST (0-60 in < 7 secs) plugin Prius w/ 4wd and good looks too. 37 miles electric only also.

https://www.toyota.com/upcoming-vehicles/priusprime/
If we need a car in the next 5yrs (our '17 VW jetta should last as wife's primary commuter, but it is a VW), this is what we'd be looking at. I'm not sure we're ready for a full EV before that. With the Hyundai Ioniq hybrid discontinued, it'll probably be the most efficient hybrid. A sporty-looking hybrid, with some power, from Toyota; I was (pleasantly) shocked when details started to emerge.
Current Prius and Rav4 Hybrid owner. I've been debating about selling the Prius and upgrading. Especially since it's still worth more than what I bought it for. Then they released the redesign of the new '23 Prius and I figured I can wait another 5 years. I never like to be testers in new redesigns/generations so hopefully they do it right. We thought about all electric but since we are renters in rural areas it just has not been feasible. But not going to complain about that because we are happy with our Toyota hybrids.
Last edited by runninginvestor on Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by Bones212 »

My name is Steven Lang. I have written about cars for over 15 years now (about 1500 articles) and I also co-develop a study called the Long-Term Quality Index which now has over 3 million vehicles that have been inspected by independent mechanics from Connecticut to California.

There are a lot of excellent answers to this thread. If I end up repeating a few please forgive me!

1) Non-Tesla EVs are excellent for local and in-town driving IF you have a garage.

About 90+% of our driving within a 15 mile radius is done with a non-Telsa EV. Our driving cost less than 2 cents a mile since our local electric company only charges 7.6 cents per kwh. If your EV is liquid cooled, having it out in hot weather isn't a serious issue but if it is air-cooled (i.e. a Nissan LEAF) there are serious degradation issues that can happen with the EV battery if you're in a hot climate. We generally don't drive our EV at all if the temperature is above 85 degrees outside.

2) Hybrids are only optimal if you do at least 400 miles of driving a week.

Hybrids don't like sitting around. If you're one of those people who commutes to the airport and leaves their for long periods unused, a hybrid is definitely not for you. The same is true if you drive locally all the time and not as frequently as most other drivers.

Hybrid systems tend to have more expensive repairs due to their regenerative braking, unique transmissions (non-Toyotas especially), and inverters which often can have limited lives. The batteries can also be impacted by heat regardless if they are nickel-cadmium or lithium ion batteries.

3) Most owners are best off with an older ICE (gas) vehicle for right now.

The three hidden costs for all electric hybrid vehicles are repairs, depreciation, and insurance. Once EVs become cheap and plentiful you'll see the economics begin to favor them. Outside of the two unique instances I have already mentioned an everyday gas-powered vehicle with no turbo or CVT transmission will usually be the optimal choice.
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by bertilak »

Bones212 wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 2:14 pm lots of good info ...
Thanks!

I live in a hot climate, often over 85 degrees.
I drive less than 400 miles/week.
My garage is filled with "stuff!" It is my combination attic and basement.

I've been thinking of a Volvo CX60 which comes as ICE, Hybrid, or full EV. Leaning towards ICE. I have not done a test drive on any of them yet.
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by kevinf »

andypanda wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:17 am My fishing buddy was telling me a little about his step-daughter's ongoing experience with a 3-month-old Ford Hybrid. It's been at the dealer for 5 weeks and they say they don't know what it wrong with it. He suspects they know, but can't or won't get the part - it seems to be a computer problem given the daily randomness of when it quits running. They aren't sure why the stop/start system doesn't start. Everything on the car seems to be interconnected and isolating the problem is beyond them.

His wife bought it for the newlyweds and it's been a royal pain. She is pursuing a lemon law violation.

I'll get the details at some point. Yesterday at lunch we were all talking sports, holiday food and more jovial guy things than broken down new cars.
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by billaster »

Bones212 wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 2:14 pm If your EV is liquid cooled, having it out in hot weather isn't a serious issue but if it is air-cooled (i.e. a Nissan LEAF) there are serious degradation issues that can happen with the EV battery if you're in a hot climate. We generally don't drive our EV at all if the temperature is above 85 degrees outside.
This information is seriously out of date. The Nissan LEAF had temperature problems in some of their early batteries in hot locations like Phoenix. But since 2015 they have used their "lizard battery" technology that no longer has temperature problems. Temperatures up to 120F are fine as long as they don't last longer than 24 hours.

Lithium batteries are actually more efficient at higher temperatures because it lowers their internal resistance. In fact, Tesla for their Max Power Mode actually pre-heats their batteries to around 120F for best performance.
The batteries can also be impacted by heat regardless if they are nickel-cadmium or lithium ion batteries.
Nickel-cadmium batteries haven't been used in vehicles since way back in the 1990s. The Prius and a few other hybrids use nickel-metal hydride batteries that have much greater high and low heat tolerance than lithium batteries.
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by MGBMartin »

billaster wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:10 pm
Bones212 wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 2:14 pm If your EV is liquid cooled, having it out in hot weather isn't a serious issue but if it is air-cooled (i.e. a Nissan LEAF) there are serious degradation issues that can happen with the EV battery if you're in a hot climate. We generally don't drive our EV at all if the temperature is above 85 degrees outside.
This information is seriously out of date. The Nissan LEAF had temperature problems in some of their early batteries in hot locations like Phoenix. But since 2015 they have used their "lizard battery" technology that no longer has temperature problems. Temperatures up to 120F are fine as long as they don't last longer than 24 hours.

Lithium batteries are actually more efficient at higher temperatures because it lowers their internal resistance. In fact, Tesla for their Max Power Mode actually pre-heats their batteries to around 120F for best performance.
The batteries can also be impacted by heat regardless if they are nickel-cadmium or lithium ion batteries.
Nickel-cadmium batteries haven't been used in vehicles since way back in the 1990s. The Prius and a few other hybrids use nickel-metal hydride batteries that have much greater high and low heat tolerance than lithium batteries.
I stopped regarding that post when I saw…
1) Non-Tesla EVs are excellent for local and in-town driving IF you have a garage.

As I couldn’t figure that one out.
I have a non Tesla EV that I use only for local and in-town driving and while I do have a garage I don’t park the EV in it.
I must be doing it wrong as my little EV is excellent for the stated purpose, either that or the fact that I have a garage makes it so.
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by Wannaretireearly »

Bones212 wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 2:14 pm My name is Steven Lang. I have written about cars for over 15 years now (about 1500 articles) and I also co-develop a study called the Long-Term Quality Index which now has over 3 million vehicles that have been inspected by independent mechanics from Connecticut to California.

There are a lot of excellent answers to this thread. If I end up repeating a few please forgive me!

1) Non-Tesla EVs are excellent for local and in-town driving IF you have a garage.

About 90+% of our driving within a 15 mile radius is done with a non-Telsa EV. Our driving cost less than 2 cents a mile since our local electric company only charges 7.6 cents per kwh. If your EV is liquid cooled, having it out in hot weather isn't a serious issue but if it is air-cooled (i.e. a Nissan LEAF) there are serious degradation issues that can happen with the EV battery if you're in a hot climate. We generally don't drive our EV at all if the temperature is above 85 degrees outside.

2) Hybrids are only optimal if you do at least 400 miles of driving a week.

Hybrids don't like sitting around. If you're one of those people who commutes to the airport and leaves their for long periods unused, a hybrid is definitely not for you. The same is true if you drive locally all the time and not as frequently as most other drivers.

Hybrid systems tend to have more expensive repairs due to their regenerative braking, unique transmissions (non-Toyotas especially), and inverters which often can have limited lives. The batteries can also be impacted by heat regardless if they are nickel-cadmium or lithium ion batteries.

3) Most owners are best off with an older ICE (gas) vehicle for right now.

The three hidden costs for all electric hybrid vehicles are repairs, depreciation, and insurance. Once EVs become cheap and plentiful you'll see the economics begin to favor them. Outside of the two unique instances I have already mentioned an everyday gas-powered vehicle with no turbo or CVT transmission will usually be the optimal choice.
Wow, bookmark this! Thanks Steven!

If you don’t mind: what car/suv would you buy in each category (hybrid, ev, ice) and why?
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by neilpilot »

MGBMartin wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:24 pm
billaster wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:10 pm
Bones212 wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 2:14 pm If your EV is liquid cooled, having it out in hot weather isn't a serious issue but if it is air-cooled (i.e. a Nissan LEAF) there are serious degradation issues that can happen with the EV battery if you're in a hot climate. We generally don't drive our EV at all if the temperature is above 85 degrees outside.
This information is seriously out of date. The Nissan LEAF had temperature problems in some of their early batteries in hot locations like Phoenix. But since 2015 they have used their "lizard battery" technology that no longer has temperature problems. Temperatures up to 120F are fine as long as they don't last longer than 24 hours.

Lithium batteries are actually more efficient at higher temperatures because it lowers their internal resistance. In fact, Tesla for their Max Power Mode actually pre-heats their batteries to around 120F for best performance.
The batteries can also be impacted by heat regardless if they are nickel-cadmium or lithium ion batteries.
Nickel-cadmium batteries haven't been used in vehicles since way back in the 1990s. The Prius and a few other hybrids use nickel-metal hydride batteries that have much greater high and low heat tolerance than lithium batteries.
I stopped regarding that post when I saw…
1) Non-Tesla EVs are excellent for local and in-town driving IF you have a garage.

As I couldn’t figure that one out.
I have a non Tesla EV that I use only for local and in-town driving and while I do have a garage I don’t park the EV in it.
I must be doing it wrong as my little EV is excellent for the stated purpose, either that or the fact that I have a garage makes it so.
I took the meaning of the statement "if you have a garage" as if you have the ability to charge at home.
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by stoptothink »

billaster wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:10 pm
Bones212 wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 2:14 pm If your EV is liquid cooled, having it out in hot weather isn't a serious issue but if it is air-cooled (i.e. a Nissan LEAF) there are serious degradation issues that can happen with the EV battery if you're in a hot climate. We generally don't drive our EV at all if the temperature is above 85 degrees outside.
This information is seriously out of date. The Nissan LEAF had temperature problems in some of their early batteries in hot locations like Phoenix. But since 2015 they have used their "lizard battery" technology that no longer has temperature problems. Temperatures up to 120F are fine as long as they don't last longer than 24 hours.

Lithium batteries are actually more efficient at higher temperatures because it lowers their internal resistance. In fact, Tesla for their Max Power Mode actually pre-heats their batteries to around 120F for best performance.
The batteries can also be impacted by heat regardless if they are nickel-cadmium or lithium ion batteries.
Nickel-cadmium batteries haven't been used in vehicles since way back in the 1990s. The Prius and a few other hybrids use nickel-metal hydride batteries that have much greater high and low heat tolerance than lithium batteries.
I appreciate the response from someone who has written a lot about cars, but so much outdated info and generalizations in that post about EVs and
hybrids. You have to look at each vehicle individually. For instance, speaking to the vehicle I own (Ford Maverick), it comes in two iterations: ecoboost (ICE) and hybrid. The hybrid powerplant not only has a longer history of use, but a better reputation for reliability than the 2L ecoboost, and its ECVT transmission is less complex (and expected to be more reliable) than the 8-speed automatic. Not only is the hybrid cheaper and more fuel efficient than the ICE, but it's expected to be more reliable and have lower maintenance costs.
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by GreenLawn »

I'm not interested in buying a Tesla and I've heard that non-Tesla charging stations can be unreliable or unavailable when needed, specifically driving across country on vacation.

I've read several articles by journalists reporting their frustration at not being able to access reliable and plentiful non-Tesla charging stations.

Can anyone share their experience driving around the country in a non-Tesla EV and what they've encountered when needing a charge?

Also, is Tesla planning on opening up their charging network to non-Tesla owners, and if so, any idea what impact that will have on wait times for charging if many non-Tesla EVs converge on those charging stations?

I have no doubt EV will be the way to go in 10 years. I'm fine with EV vehicle technology, it's the current state of the charging network I question. Is it go Tesla or go home?
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by GT99 »

stoptothink wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:21 am
Normchad wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:31 pm
jabberwockOG wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:26 pm Millions of people don't have a garage, or live in apartments/condos and have to park their cars out in the street. It's going to be a long time before everyone can easily charge their EV car "at home". Hybrids make way more sense unless you have a place to easily charge your EV car at home when you are not using it.
Correct. As a very happy EV owner, I would never recommend one to somebody who can’t charge at home.

All of my charging is done at home, save 4-5 times a year when I’m on a trip.
I believe ~70% of families across the country live in single family homes, and it is less in larger metro areas. Condo/apartment/townhome living is also rapidly increasing. They are building hundreds of apartments and condos within ~2 miles of my home right now, but not one SFH home (as far as I have seen), and I hardly live in a large metro area. I have a garage, but I'm an outlier in my area and my employer (by far the largest in the area) has 6 EV chargers (for 6,000+ employees). I'm unlikely to buy another ICE vehicle (a plug-in hybrid as our primary commuter is probably next), but it isn't really an option for most people in my area until availability of public charging increases. This discussion is very dependent on your specific situation.
Most newer apartment/condo buildings have charging stations and/or available outlets to plug into - at least in most areas. Can't speak to all areas.
GT99
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by GT99 »

finite_difference wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:56 pm

A couple thoughts:

1. You need to pay to get the electric hookups installed at your house. That’s at least $1k?
2. EV tires are designed to carry a heavy car, and thus cost more and wear out faster, which may cancel out part of the routine maintenance you need with ICE (oil and filter changes, brake fluid, brake pads, etc.) A set of Tesla tires costs $2k+?

Not having to deal with oil and filter changes, coolant, ATF, brake fluid, differential fluid, gear fluid, etc. sure is convenient though.

But with EV, you’ll still need to have your car in the shop at least 1/year to get it checked out, rotate tires, etc.
I was curious because I've not yet had to replace the tires on my Model 3. So I checked Costco, and the range of prices for 4 tires for a Model 3 is $876 to $1228 for the most expensive. So pretty normal.
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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by WhyNotUs »

I am saving the post below for a EV Greatest Myths list.

I pay $85 a month to lease my 2020 Leaf, the one I bought in 2013 was $19k out the door.

Neither vehicle, 120k miles of driving, has been to the Nissan dealer for service. I live 100 miles from a dealer and it has not been a problem as there has been no service. The one time that there was a computer update on my 2013, they sent a tech to the area to update all of the cars.
Other than Tesla, I am unaware of quality of workmanship issues, certainly not with mine or the people that I know.
We also own a Toyota Sienna and paid $10k to rebuild the engine at 100,000 miles after an oil hose failed one year past Toyota's date of responsibility. I sold my old Leaf at 84k miles and it still had all 12 bars of battery life.
Cost prediction in the face of recent past gas prices are a mistimed argument.
My insurance is based on replacement value rather than what type of propulsion is used.
My Prius went through tires faster than the 2020 Leaf, the 2013 did have a Bridgestone tire OEM that did not last.
Etc.

Kind of sad to deal with the EV myths posted here.
Ricola wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:12 pm Electrics have too many negatives for me at this time; increased cost to purchase, convenience to service, parts cost and availability, quality of workmanship, lack of range in all driving conditions (heat and cold), convenience and time to re-charge, the cost to replace the battery ($$$), charging costs predicted to go up with increased demand and taxes, insurance cost, excess tire costs and rough ride due to heavy batteries, and EV fires - spontaneous combustion (don't park in your garage). :shock:

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Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by Baltazarre »

Have both a Tesla and a plug-in Prius Prime. Trickle charge at home which takes care of most day to day needs. Waited on the Tesla until there was a supercharger installed 4 miles away in the event I bring down the charge levels due to more extensive driving. Will eventually install a home charger but haven't had to as of yet.
Pdxnative
Posts: 601
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2015 2:17 pm

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by Pdxnative »

GreenLawn wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:54 pm I'm not interested in buying a Tesla and I've heard that non-Tesla charging stations can be unreliable or unavailable when needed, specifically driving across country on vacation.

I've read several articles by journalists reporting their frustration at not being able to access reliable and plentiful non-Tesla charging stations.

Can anyone share their experience driving around the country in a non-Tesla EV and what they've encountered when needing a charge?

Also, is Tesla planning on opening up their charging network to non-Tesla owners, and if so, any idea what impact that will have on wait times for charging if many non-Tesla EVs converge on those charging stations?

I have no doubt EV will be the way to go in 10 years. I'm fine with EV vehicle technology, it's the current state of the charging network I question. Is it go Tesla or go home?
I’ve driven fairly extensively around Colorado, OR, WA, California, New England, and mid-Atlantic states. Some of those were with a Tesla, others with a polestar, ID.4, or Leaf. While the Tesla network is more extensive and easier to use because it’s integrated into the car, I find the non-Tesla charging to be just fine. The Electrify America network is pretty good. Sometimes 1 or 2 of the 4 chargers are out of order. But I haven’t ever had to wait to charge. That depends a bit on timing.

When I’m traveling in an unfamiliar area I usually have a plan b and plan c in case my plan a charger is down. I haven’t ever had trouble finding a charging location to serve as a plan c. (ETA: but to be clear, my plan a has always worked).

There are ample fast chargers in most of the populated states and it’s very easy to find lodging with level 2 chargers, or near one. Most of the hotels I’ve used in cities, charging is part of the valet parking service or there are chargers in the lot.

There are places like WV that don’t have great charging networks but I don’t drive in most of those places.

There’s definitely room for improvement, and there will be more and more chargers as infrastructure funds are spent on this (I think starting this winter). But I think most highly traveled corridors are pretty decent right now. Tesla is likely opening their network this winter as well and that’ll add options. Right now I’m seeing a lot of Teslas at EA stations, likely doing some sort of price arbitrage.

Unless I was on the road all the time I wouldn’t avoid a non-Tesla EV just because of the charging networks.
7eight9
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Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by 7eight9 »

When we drove 277 miles from Los Angeles to Las Vegas my wife planned out where we would stop to recharge the Nissan Leaf S we had just purchased. We had six spots picked out - three in one location and three in another. First stop at a Walmart - chargers in the parking lot. No CHAdeMO chargers. On to a mall where there were chargers. Drove around for a while and finally found them. There were four chargers - three in use and one broken. We waited for a BMW to finish charging. Plugged in and went to walk the mall. Walked around - came back and the car wasn't charged up enough. Walked again. Then drove on. Stopped in Baker. Found chargers behind the World's Tallest Thermometer. The first two we tried were out of order. The third worked. Went inside and killed a bunch of time waiting. Not a positive experience.

In my opinion this is why non-Tesla EVs are not ready for prime time. I can easily drive 400 miles in any direction with my Camry without doing any planning with respect to refueling. I won't need to refuel but if I want to there won't be a single app involved. And it will be quick.
I guess it all could be much worse. | They could be warming up my hearse.
Pdxnative
Posts: 601
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2015 2:17 pm

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by Pdxnative »

7eight9 wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 11:11 pm When we drove 277 miles from Los Angeles to Las Vegas my wife planned out where we would stop to recharge the Nissan Leaf S we had just purchased. We had six spots picked out - three in one location and three in another. First stop at a Walmart - chargers in the parking lot. No CHAdeMO chargers. On to a mall where there were chargers. Drove around for a while and finally found them. There were four chargers - three in use and one broken. We waited for a BMW to finish charging. Plugged in and went to walk the mall. Walked around - came back and the car wasn't charged up enough. Walked again. Then drove on. Stopped in Baker. Found chargers behind the World's Tallest Thermometer. The first two we tried were out of order. The third worked. Went inside and killed a bunch of time waiting. Not a positive experience.

In my opinion this is why non-Tesla EVs are not ready for prime time. I can easily drive 400 miles in any direction with my Camry without doing any planning with respect to refueling. I won't need to refuel but if I want to there won't be a single app involved. And it will be quick.
I think your story overstates some of the challenges. First off, you opted for a car with 150 mile range that is one of the slowest to charge. Chademo is on the way out as a charging standard so is less plentiful at most fast charging stations (sometimes only 1 of 4 chargers will have a chademo plug). None of these are deal breakers for most people, especially those using the car for local commuting, but they are choices you made.

However, even with that car, a few things would have improved your experience. You can search for stations with chademo chargers in most apps. I’m not clear how you’d end up at a station without one. And, once you become familiar with your car’s charging speed maybe you wouldn’t come back too early. My app for both the car and the charging network I’m using tells me when the charge is finished. Yes, sometimes chargers are broken. Even in your case, all you had to do was move your car a few feet.

There are times I’ve had to wait a few minutes for a Tesla charger also. I don’t blame Tesla for that.

Anyway, I’m sorry you don’t like your leaf but given some of your prior posts about charging challenges I do think potential EV buyers should take what you say with a grain of salt.
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