New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

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tsohg
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by tsohg »

Nate79 wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:09 am
tsohg wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 9:46 am Thanks a lot, Vanguard. This is also the second time in the past year or two a VG initiated change has removed check writing support from a fund that previously had it with them. So I can fill out the same forms again and wait for them to send me another check book.

It's very frustrating to get an email out of the blue with a deadline 'encouraging' me to go through a somewhat confusing process to completely restructure my accounts, or accept additional fees from a firm built on (1) investor ownership and presumably care for those owners (2) low fees.

I went through the process and now my account overview looks like a hot mess. Great. :annoyed
How is this out of the blue? They have been sending message after message to everyone to convert for what, a decade?
Oh, sorry, I haven't been up to date with the most recent exciting prospectus advertisements for VBS. :oops: How silly of me to ignore this highly valuable offering that VG is foisting on me through threats of fees. I value stability, no changes, and low fees. Here' they're threatening higher fees if I don't make a wholesale change to my account structure.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by jebmke »

Nate79 wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:09 am
tsohg wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 9:46 am Thanks a lot, Vanguard. This is also the second time in the past year or two a VG initiated change has removed check writing support from a fund that previously had it with them. So I can fill out the same forms again and wait for them to send me another check book.

It's very frustrating to get an email out of the blue with a deadline 'encouraging' me to go through a somewhat confusing process to completely restructure my accounts, or accept additional fees from a firm built on (1) investor ownership and presumably care for those owners (2) low fees.

I went through the process and now my account overview looks like a hot mess. Great. :annoyed
How is this out of the blue? They have been sending message after message to everyone to convert for what, a decade?
I know when I did a transfer of an IRA to Vanguard from Fidelity I was informed that the new account had to be a brokerage account. So I know that they have not been opening new MF accounts (perhaps with some exceptions) since then. I don't recall when the "upgrade" nudges for existing MF accounts started but it was years ago, not months.
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jeffyscott
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by jeffyscott »

Nate79 wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:09 am
tsohg wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 9:46 am Thanks a lot, Vanguard. This is also the second time in the past year or two a VG initiated change has removed check writing support from a fund that previously had it with them. So I can fill out the same forms again and wait for them to send me another check book.

It's very frustrating to get an email out of the blue with a deadline 'encouraging' me to go through a somewhat confusing process to completely restructure my accounts, or accept additional fees from a firm built on (1) investor ownership and presumably care for those owners (2) low fees.

I went through the process and now my account overview looks like a hot mess. Great. :annoyed
How is this out of the blue? They have been sending message after message to everyone to convert for what, a decade?
Vanguard cheerleaders continue to ignore that CHARGING NEW FEES was never mentioned in any of those messages.
And so it goes, And so it goes, And so it goes, And so it goes, But where it's goin' no one knows
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by jebmke »

jeffyscott wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:49 am Vanguard cheerleaders continue to ignore that CHARGING NEW FEES was never mentioned in any of those messages.
True but how to avoid the fees was. People are certainly free to leave to other custodians. I've moved twice in my investing life.
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tsohg
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by tsohg »

To be clear, I AM a VG cheerleader, I made this switch, and it's still highly annoying.
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jeffyscott
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by jeffyscott »

jebmke wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:52 am
jeffyscott wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:49 am Vanguard cheerleaders continue to ignore that CHARGING NEW FEES was never mentioned in any of those messages.
True but how to avoid the fees was. People are certainly free to leave to other custodians. I've moved twice in my investing life.
Agree, but the complaints about short notice are valid.
And so it goes, And so it goes, And so it goes, And so it goes, But where it's goin' no one knows
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retiredjg
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by retiredjg »

I am also a Vanguard cheerleader and have recently made the switch. Don't like it a bit, but I'll stick with it for a little while.

In the meantime, I'm looking around...which is something I never expected to do.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by jebmke »

jeffyscott wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:55 am
jebmke wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:52 am
jeffyscott wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:49 am Vanguard cheerleaders continue to ignore that CHARGING NEW FEES was never mentioned in any of those messages.
True but how to avoid the fees was. People are certainly free to leave to other custodians. I've moved twice in my investing life.
Agree, but the complaints about short notice are valid.
Perhaps; but I'm not big on grievances. Over the decades I've found that complaining doesn't accomplish much unless it is applied to the source of the issue AND when there is some chance that it will change things. Otherwise, it is a waste of mental energy.
When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.
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Nate79
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by Nate79 »

jeffyscott wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:55 am
jebmke wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:52 am
jeffyscott wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:49 am Vanguard cheerleaders continue to ignore that CHARGING NEW FEES was never mentioned in any of those messages.
True but how to avoid the fees was. People are certainly free to leave to other custodians. I've moved twice in my investing life.
Agree, but the complaints about short notice are valid.
Vanguard has been very clear that they were going to make staying on the mutual fund platform more and more painful including taking away capabilities. I don't understand what is short notice. I guess they didn't say how they were going to make it painful.

Did people not understand that they would use fees to get people to get off the old platform? It was kind of obvious. I guess if people don't leave the next step will be to take away more functionality and probably raise the fees anymore.
exodusNH
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by exodusNH »

Nate79 wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 1:36 pm
jeffyscott wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:55 am
jebmke wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:52 am
jeffyscott wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:49 am Vanguard cheerleaders continue to ignore that CHARGING NEW FEES was never mentioned in any of those messages.
True but how to avoid the fees was. People are certainly free to leave to other custodians. I've moved twice in my investing life.
Agree, but the complaints about short notice are valid.
Vanguard has been very clear that they were going to make staying on the mutual fund platform more and more painful including taking away capabilities. I don't understand what is short notice. I guess they didn't say how they were going to make it painful.

Did people not understand that they would use fees to get people to get off the old platform? It was kind of obvious. I guess if people don't leave the next step will be to take away more functionality and probably raise the fees anymore.
It they had done it with more than 6 weeks notice and made it possible to automatically convert all of the accounts, rather than make many common configurations require manual intervention/explanation by their already-overwhelmed customer service department, it would have gone a lot smoother. (Not to mention the poor people who have POA-type access to accounts and are forced to reestablish that, possibly for people are no longer mentally competent.)

They further confused things by changing the threshold for free printed statements in brokerage accounts.
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retiredjg
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by retiredjg »

I think the notice (6 weeks?) was short considering how many people are having problems with the transition and how difficult is is to get a human to help. I think something like 3 months notice and good customer service would have a very different reaction (although some people would still not want to move).

I also think their instructions have been poor. People have been transitioning for years. Vanguard has to know what problems are common and yet everyone who encounters a problem is having to reinvent the wheel.

I think Vanguard also confused things by announcing two new fees at the same time in the same message. A lot of people got confused by that, especially people who didn't even know there were two platforms to begin with.

I don't think it is the transition itself that is causing all this hate and discontent. I think it is how it was announced and then so poorly managed that is causing people to be so upset.
desertSunrise
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by desertSunrise »

Joyful wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:22 pm Hi - Why don't you go ahead and make the switch to brokerage account(s)?
I did years ago.
Because I can't setup automatic exchanges for ETF-equivalent mutual funds. I need this for dollar-cost averaging. Week by week money flows from my settlement account into funds without my having to think about it.

BTW, I'm not sure if the hold times are as bad for Flagship Select clients, but as a Flagship client it took me over 20 mins on hold to eventually find out there is no way to turn off the pestering message EVERY time I log in even though I have reason not to switch. The new website leaves much to be desired.
exodusNH
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by exodusNH »

desertSunrise wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 1:50 pm
Joyful wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:22 pm Hi - Why don't you go ahead and make the switch to brokerage account(s)?
I did years ago.
Because I can't setup automatic exchanges for ETF-equivalent mutual funds. I need this for dollar-cost averaging. Week by week money flows from my settlement account into funds without my having to think about it.

BTW, I'm not sure if the hold times are as bad for Flagship Select clients, but as a Flagship client it took me over 20 mins on hold to eventually find out there is no way to turn off the pestering message EVERY time I log in even though I have reason not to switch. The new website leaves much to be desired.
You know you can hold mutual funds on their brokerage platform, right? You don't need to switch to ETFs.

Mutual funds will likely outlive everyone on this board.
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Cheez-It Guy
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

Many people somehow still don't get that.
Dregob
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by Dregob »

I transitioned tRNA, Roth IRA and our joint accounts. Simple.
The only odd thing was we had to print out the 12 page form for my wife's inherited IRA and mail it in.
No big deal and it all went smoothly.
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Cheez-It Guy
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

jeffyscott wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:49 am Vanguard cheerleaders continue to ignore that CHARGING NEW FEES was never mentioned in any of those messages.
How did you think they were going to do it? A subset of clients convinced themselves that since Vanguard couldn't legally force conversion to a brokerage platform and associated account creations and authorizations that they were going to continue to be able to free-ride indefinitely on a deprecated and deprioritized platform pain-free. Asking nicely and gentle prods and reminders didn't work, but the overarching goal remains the same. This was always wishful thinking, and the apparent surprise and indignant reaction is actually what I find surprising. They want people off the old platform so we can all move on with life. Get off it or get out. I know from previous posts that you got out, so that's clearly a path that can be taken. Just don't delude yourselves.
BigJohn
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by BigJohn »

retiredjg wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 1:47 pm I think the notice (6 weeks?) was short considering how many people are having problems with the transition and how difficult is is to get a human to help. I think something like 3 months notice and good customer service would have a very different reaction (although some people would still not want to move).

I also think their instructions have been poor. People have been transitioning for years. Vanguard has to know what problems are common and yet everyone who encounters a problem is having to reinvent the wheel.

I think Vanguard also confused things by announcing two new fees at the same time in the same message. A lot of people got confused by that, especially people who didn't even know there were two platforms to begin with.

I don't think it is the transition itself that is causing all this hate and discontent. I think it is how it was announced and then so poorly managed that is causing people to be so upset.
I disagree. Even with 3 months notice, the complaints would have been about the same. If you’ve ignored all the warning signs about less functionality and the likelihood of fees for this long, any change that forces your hand is going to be met with outrage. I’m guessing VG knows this and just decided it was time to rip the bandaid off and get it over with.
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retiredjg
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by retiredjg »

BigJohn wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 7:11 pm
retiredjg wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 1:47 pm I think the notice (6 weeks?) was short considering how many people are having problems with the transition and how difficult is is to get a human to help. I think something like 3 months notice and good customer service would have a very different reaction (although some people would still not want to move).

I also think their instructions have been poor. People have been transitioning for years. Vanguard has to know what problems are common and yet everyone who encounters a problem is having to reinvent the wheel.

I think Vanguard also confused things by announcing two new fees at the same time in the same message. A lot of people got confused by that, especially people who didn't even know there were two platforms to begin with.

I don't think it is the transition itself that is causing all this hate and discontent. I think it is how it was announced and then so poorly managed that is causing people to be so upset.
I disagree. Even with 3 months notice, the complaints would have been about the same. If you’ve ignored all the warning signs about less functionality and the likelihood of fees for this long, any change that forces your hand is going to be met with outrage. I’m guessing VG knows this and just decided it was time to rip the bandaid off and get it over with.
I didn't say people would be happy with the change. But Vanguard's customer service failures during this change are adding insult to injury. Straw...camel...and all that.

People probably would have gotten over the change if the eventual product and service were acceptable. But that is not the case. I think a good number of people will not get over that.

It's not like Vanguard didn't already know they didn't have the customer service support to make this work. That's been obvious for quite awhile.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by retiringwhen »

retiredjg wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 7:23 pm It's not like Vanguard didn't already know they didn't have the customer service support to make this work. That's been obvious for quite awhile.
I bet their calculus is to get investors on one platform so their training and customer support can be more focused on one system. Support for multiple systems is very expensive, especially when you have to train a lot of new CSRs. This pain is part of the plan to improve customer service.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by PersonalFinanceJam »

retiringwhen wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 7:27 pm
retiredjg wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 7:23 pm It's not like Vanguard didn't already know they didn't have the customer service support to make this work. That's been obvious for quite awhile.
I bet their calculus is to get investors on one platform so their training and customer support can be more focused on one system. Support for multiple systems is very expensive, especially when you have to train a lot of new CSRs. This pain is part of the plan to improve customer service.
Hope springs eternal. It certainly could happen that way. however, I've been a part of several platform consolidation projects in my career. The calculus that says once we are done with this project we will be more efficient and cost effect almost always equated to, "here's all the people, including customer facing support, we think we can get rid of". The overall level of service didn't really improve because the people side of the equation was "right sized" to account for the new "efficiency".
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by jebmke »

PersonalFinanceJam wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 7:49 pm
retiringwhen wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 7:27 pm
retiredjg wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 7:23 pm It's not like Vanguard didn't already know they didn't have the customer service support to make this work. That's been obvious for quite awhile.
I bet their calculus is to get investors on one platform so their training and customer support can be more focused on one system. Support for multiple systems is very expensive, especially when you have to train a lot of new CSRs. This pain is part of the plan to improve customer service.
Hope springs eternal. It certainly could happen that way. however, I've been a part of several platform consolidation projects in my career. The calculus that says once we are done with this project we will be more efficient and cost effect almost always equated to, "here's all the people, including customer facing support, we think we can get rid of". The overall level of service didn't really improve because the people side of the equation was "right sized" to account for the new "efficiency".
sometimes it is a race against the grim reaper as the people who know all the spaghetti code on legacy systems retire and die.
When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.
BigJohn
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by BigJohn »

retiredjg wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 7:23 pm
BigJohn wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 7:11 pm
retiredjg wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 1:47 pm I think the notice (6 weeks?) was short considering how many people are having problems with the transition and how difficult is is to get a human to help. I think something like 3 months notice and good customer service would have a very different reaction (although some people would still not want to move).

I also think their instructions have been poor. People have been transitioning for years. Vanguard has to know what problems are common and yet everyone who encounters a problem is having to reinvent the wheel.

I think Vanguard also confused things by announcing two new fees at the same time in the same message. A lot of people got confused by that, especially people who didn't even know there were two platforms to begin with.

I don't think it is the transition itself that is causing all this hate and discontent. I think it is how it was announced and then so poorly managed that is causing people to be so upset.
I disagree. Even with 3 months notice, the complaints would have been about the same. If you’ve ignored all the warning signs about less functionality and the likelihood of fees for this long, any change that forces your hand is going to be met with outrage. I’m guessing VG knows this and just decided it was time to rip the bandaid off and get it over with.
I didn't say people would be happy with the change. But Vanguard's customer service failures during this change are adding insult to injury. Straw...camel...and all that.

People probably would have gotten over the change if the eventual product and service were acceptable. But that is not the case. I think a good number of people will not get over that.

It's not like Vanguard didn't already know they didn't have the customer service support to make this work. That's been obvious for quite awhile.
I certainly agree that the short notice and customer service issues are adding insult to injury. I think it's clear that VG has reached the point where they want to get people on the MF platform angry enough to either leave or convert. My guess is that they really don't care much which way people swing as long as they're off the MF platform soon. And, if this doesn't get customers angry enough to do something, I'll bet they have round 2 lined up and ready to go.
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Nate79
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by Nate79 »

If people think these fees are painful they ain't seen nothing yet. The changes to how they handle RMDs are only the start.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by patrick »

I had earlier written that other Fidelity (and in many cases Schwab) had their own index funds at slightly lower cost than Vanguard. However, I've now realized there is one important exception: state-specific muni bond funds.

For New York, Vanguard's VNYUX fund has a 0.09% expense ratio, while the best you can get elsewhere is the NYF ETF at 0.25%. If you specifically need a mutual fund the cost would be even higher.

For New Jersey, Vanguard's VNJUX also has a 0.09% expense ratio, and index ETFs appear unavailable. It seems the cheapest alternative is Fidelity's FNJHX at 0.09%.

If you live in one of the states where Vanguard has a specific muni fund and you are in a high enough tax bracket for it to make sense to use it and your job won't allow you to have a Vanguard brokerage, then it seems there isn't any good option here. This might even be the one case where just paying the fee makes sense.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by SmileyFace »

Nate79 wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 1:36 pm
jeffyscott wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:55 am
jebmke wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:52 am
jeffyscott wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:49 am Vanguard cheerleaders continue to ignore that CHARGING NEW FEES was never mentioned in any of those messages.
True but how to avoid the fees was. People are certainly free to leave to other custodians. I've moved twice in my investing life.
Agree, but the complaints about short notice are valid.
Vanguard has been very clear that they were going to make staying on the mutual fund platform more and more painful including taking away capabilities. I don't understand what is short notice. I guess they didn't say how they were going to make it painful.

Did people not understand that they would use fees to get people to get off the old platform? It was kind of obvious. I guess if people don't leave the next step will be to take away more functionality and probably raise the fees anymore.
But they didn't notify everyone until recently. Some people never got the emails nor online prompts until recently. Some of us have been getting notified for years but I can tell you for a fact that was NOT true for everyone. Some lifelong Vanguard investors suddenly got a batch of letters letting them know if they don't act soon they would be the subject of over a hundred in new fees.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by rkhusky »

jebmke wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 7:53 pm sometimes it is a race against the grim reaper as the people who know all the spaghetti code on legacy systems retire and die.
I'm sure Covid threw a major monkey wrench in Vanguard's plans for the new system, with a lot of people demanding to work from home and/or leaving and/or retiring. When you are operating without a lot of cushion to lower expenses, any disruption becomes a major issue.

The new TSP system has also seen a lot of complaints and their offerings are much simpler than Vanguard's.
bling
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by bling »

maybe instead of imposing a new a $20 fee like this, they should have changed it so if you stay on the old mutual fund platform, all funds will have an increased ER of 0.01-0.02%. i think for most, seeing the $20 line item is more repulsive than if the fee was levied behind the scenes.

this will obviously prolong the life of the mutual fund platform, but at least now they can afford to employ qualified engineers to maintain it.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by jeffyscott »

bling wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 7:53 am maybe instead of imposing a new a $20 fee like this, they should have changed it so if you stay on the old mutual fund platform, all funds will have an increased ER of 0.01-0.02%. i think for most, seeing the $20 line item is more repulsive than if the fee was levied behind the scenes.

this will obviously prolong the life of the mutual fund platform, but at least now they can afford to employ qualified engineers to maintain it.
I believe that is not allowed, but if it were, then those using a Vanguard brokerage account should also be charged more. They, too, cost vanguard more than those who hold Vanguard funds at Fidelity, Schwab, etc.
And so it goes, And so it goes, And so it goes, And so it goes, But where it's goin' no one knows
Investment101
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by Investment101 »

About to switch over to the brokerage account, any negatives/cons switching to brokerage account? I actually just have total stock and total international stock, 40 bucks might not be that bad a year. Most of you guys already switched over long ago right?
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Cheez-It Guy
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

Don't know about "most", but fair to say a not insignificant number did it years ago -- myself included. Not aware of any major cons for your situation. A pro would be getting off a dying platform and saving $40.
exodusNH
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by exodusNH »

bling wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 7:53 am maybe instead of imposing a new a $20 fee like this, they should have changed it so if you stay on the old mutual fund platform, all funds will have an increased ER of 0.01-0.02%. i think for most, seeing the $20 line item is more repulsive than if the fee was levied behind the scenes.

this will obviously prolong the life of the mutual fund platform, but at least now they can afford to employ qualified engineers to maintain it.
You have to treat everyone in a share class the same. You couldn't do this just for the funds held on the legacy platform.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by surfinagin »

I have Limited Agent Authorization for an elderly relative. On 9/06, found no link/tab when we logged onto their account to make this change. Called Vanguard, and told by rep that b/c it's an "inactive account" (I do their transactions from mine) the online option wasn't provided. OK then.
They said the req'd forms they were mailing would be received within 5 days. Now 16 days later: called again and was told Vanguard is backed-up with many form requests, and no projection for when they will be received. But don't worry, if the forms aren't provided in time to avoid the $20/fund acct service fee deadline, then a note would be added to their acct and they won't have to pay the fee.

Vanguard staffing must be cut to the bone when they can't put 2 blank forms in an envelope and mail them within 2 weeks, or even project when they will manage to accomplish this.
exodusNH
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by exodusNH »

surfinagin wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:38 pm I have Limited Agent Authorization for an elderly relative. On 9/06, found no link/tab when we logged onto their account to make this change. Called Vanguard, and told by rep that b/c it's an "inactive account" (I do their transactions from mine) the online option wasn't provided. OK then.
They said the req'd forms they were mailing would be received within 5 days. Now 16 days later: called again and was told Vanguard is backed-up with many form requests, and no projection for when they will be received. But don't worry, if the forms aren't provided in time to avoid the $20/fund acct service fee deadline, then a note would be added to their acct and they won't have to pay the fee.

Vanguard staffing must be cut to the bone when they can't put 2 blank forms in an envelope and mail them within 2 weeks, or even project when they will manage to accomplish this.
They definitely are short staffed, but they complicated matters by announcing the fee out of the blue 6 weeks ago.
surfinagin
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by surfinagin »

exodusNH wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:40 pm
surfinagin wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:38 pm I have Limited Agent Authorization for an elderly relative. On 9/06, found no link/tab when we logged onto their account to make this change. Called Vanguard, and told by rep that b/c it's an "inactive account" (I do their transactions from mine) the online option wasn't provided. OK then.
They said the req'd forms they were mailing would be received within 5 days. Now 16 days later: called again and was told Vanguard is backed-up with many form requests, and no projection for when they will be received. But don't worry, if the forms aren't provided in time to avoid the $20/fund acct service fee deadline, then a note would be added to their acct and they won't have to pay the fee.

Vanguard staffing must be cut to the bone when they can't put 2 blank forms in an envelope and mail them within 2 weeks, or even project when they will manage to accomplish this.
They definitely are short staffed, but they complicated matters by announcing the fee out of the blue 6 weeks ago.
I gave the rep feedback on my perspective regarding Vanguard's mismanagement of this whole thing to send up the chain.
Been with Vanguard a long time, but combined with previous issues this has me seriously considering transferring our accts out.
Investment101
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by Investment101 »

Wow that sounds like very bad customer service!

Other than customer service, Vanguard is decent right? I just leave the funds there and I almost never call or contact them.

Changing from the old MF only account to new brokerage account, it should take 1,2 days?
Lionel Hutz
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by Lionel Hutz »

Investment101 wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:37 pm Wow that sounds like very bad customer service!

Other than customer service, Vanguard is decent right? I just leave the funds there and I almost never call or contact them.
I think few would argue: their funds are best in class. In fact, many hold their ETFs at other brokers.

One main problem with Vanguard as noted on this forum is there can be a bit of a snowball effect when something does go wrong. For one there's long call holds, for another their problem resolution isn't top tier. So for many on this forum they've hit their limit and they've left for Fidelity, Schwab. For many others it hasn't been problem enough to move.
Changing from the old MF only account to new brokerage account, it should take 1,2 days?
The transition to the new brokerage account should only take a few days. Most have no problems, though some have definitely reported problems. Especially if you have a taxable account you should save your own records in case something is mixed up in the switch.

Also, there's a $20 annual fee on the brokerage platform unless you're signed up for e-delivery.
exodusNH
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by exodusNH »

Lionel Hutz wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:15 pm Also, there's a $20 annual fee on the brokerage platform unless you're signed up for e-delivery.
Or have $1M in Vanguard assets.
exodusNH
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by exodusNH »

Investment101 wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:37 pm Wow that sounds like very bad customer service!

Other than customer service, Vanguard is decent right? I just leave the funds there and I almost never call or contact them.

Changing from the old MF only account to new brokerage account, it should take 1,2 days?
From other reports, it happens pretty quickly once it starts. But there are a number of things that can prevent automatic conversion. Then you're sent into Vanguard Customer Service Limbo.
surfinagin
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by surfinagin »

Regarding long call holds: I left my number for a callback when the automated line said the wait would be over an hour.
They were right -the rep called me back 80" later.
This is Flagship.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by sajohnson »

This may be common knowledge but I haven't seen any mention of it:

Vanguard PDF says BOTH mutual fund and brokerage accounts have $20 annual fees!:

See page 4: https://www.vanguard.com/pdf/vbafqm.pdf

Account service fee

$20 annual fee for each mutual fund
account.
Refer to the applicable
Vanguard fund prospectus or
visit vanguard.com to learn about
exclusions that may apply.

$20 annual fee for each brokerage account. Refer to the
Vanguard Brokerage commission and fee schedules at
vanguard.com/commissions to learn about exclusions that
may apply.

~

The impression I have from Vanguard's recent emails that threaten to charge $20 per account is that if we are good boys and girls and transition to a brokerage account(s) there will be no fees.

Does anyone know what the truth is?
“Fund performance comes and goes. Costs go on forever.” – John Bogle | | “The two greatest enemies of the equity fund investor are expenses and emotions.” – John Bogle
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by retired@50 »

sajohnson wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:54 pm The impression I have from Vanguard's recent emails that threaten to charge $20 per account is that if we are good boys and girls and transition to a brokerage account(s) there will be no fees.

Does anyone know what the truth is?
With a brokerage account, you also have to accept (or set up) e-delivery of documents. No paper mailings if you want to avoid the fee.
Details here: https://investor.vanguard.com/client-be ... count-fees

Regards,
This is one person's opinion. Nothing more.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by sajohnson »

surfinagin wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:47 pm
exodusNH wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:40 pm
surfinagin wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:38 pm I have Limited Agent Authorization for an elderly relative. On 9/06, found no link/tab when we logged onto their account to make this change. Called Vanguard, and told by rep that b/c it's an "inactive account" (I do their transactions from mine) the online option wasn't provided. OK then.
They said the req'd forms they were mailing would be received within 5 days. Now 16 days later: called again and was told Vanguard is backed-up with many form requests, and no projection for when they will be received. But don't worry, if the forms aren't provided in time to avoid the $20/fund acct service fee deadline, then a note would be added to their acct and they won't have to pay the fee.

Vanguard staffing must be cut to the bone when they can't put 2 blank forms in an envelope and mail them within 2 weeks, or even project when they will manage to accomplish this.
They definitely are short staffed, but they complicated matters by announcing the fee out of the blue 6 weeks ago.
I gave the rep feedback on my perspective regarding Vanguard's mismanagement of this whole thing to send up the chain.
Been with Vanguard a long time, but combined with previous issues this has me seriously considering transferring our accts out.
I'm feeling the same way. I've been with Vanguard for decades. I first began reading Bogle's articles and books in the 1980s. I've spread Jack's advice to anyone who would listen, and recommended Vanguard too many times to count.

The pending $20/account fees would upset Bogle a great deal. I get all of the reasons why Vanguard wants customers to transition to brokerage accounts, but it is primarily for Vanguard's benefit (and indirectly, the investors). My wife and I have no need to make the switch, but several months ago, after receiving many very laid back/low key emails, I attempted to complete the transition. I very quickly ran into problems and gave up.

There was no mention of any fees -- which for us will be at least $60. In fact, my impression from the tone of the earlier emails was that investors had the *option* to transition their accounts but that if they did not, Vanguard would eventually do it. I know now that is not the case, but those initial emails made it sound that way: "Don't sweat it dude! Vanguard has ya covered..."

More recently, Vanguard is now adamant that all customers must switch or pay fees. If they are that worried about it, but they can't or won't do the transfer themselves (with permission) they should make it a simple process for investors -- a few clicks. As it is, it's a huge PITA for many people, and when you call customer service you are told that there is an almost 1 hour wait time. The hold music is like an ice pick in your ear. In my case at least, there was no call back option.

There is no way I'm going to pay a $60/year fee for something that I have no control over.

I hear TIAA is pretty good. Any other suggestions?
“Fund performance comes and goes. Costs go on forever.” – John Bogle | | “The two greatest enemies of the equity fund investor are expenses and emotions.” – John Bogle
sajohnson
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by sajohnson »

This was a duplicate post.
“Fund performance comes and goes. Costs go on forever.” – John Bogle | | “The two greatest enemies of the equity fund investor are expenses and emotions.” – John Bogle
tj
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by tj »

sajohnson wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:19 pm
surfinagin wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:47 pm
exodusNH wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:40 pm
surfinagin wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:38 pm I have Limited Agent Authorization for an elderly relative. On 9/06, found no link/tab when we logged onto their account to make this change. Called Vanguard, and told by rep that b/c it's an "inactive account" (I do their transactions from mine) the online option wasn't provided. OK then.
They said the req'd forms they were mailing would be received within 5 days. Now 16 days later: called again and was told Vanguard is backed-up with many form requests, and no projection for when they will be received. But don't worry, if the forms aren't provided in time to avoid the $20/fund acct service fee deadline, then a note would be added to their acct and they won't have to pay the fee.

Vanguard staffing must be cut to the bone when they can't put 2 blank forms in an envelope and mail them within 2 weeks, or even project when they will manage to accomplish this.
They definitely are short staffed, but they complicated matters by announcing the fee out of the blue 6 weeks ago.
I gave the rep feedback on my perspective regarding Vanguard's mismanagement of this whole thing to send up the chain.
Been with Vanguard a long time, but combined with previous issues this has me seriously considering transferring our accts out.
I'm feeling the same way. I've been with Vanguard for decades. I first began reading Bogle's articles and books in the 1980s. I've spread Jack's advice to anyone who would listen, and recommended Vanguard too many times to count.

The pending $20/account fees would upset Bogle a great deal. I get all of the reasons why Vanguard wants customers to transition to brokerage accounts, but it is primarily for Vanguard's benefit (and indirectly, the investors). My wife and I have no need to make the switch, but several months ago, after receiving many very laid back/low key emails, I attempted to complete the transition. I very quickly ran into problems and gave up.

There was no mention of any fees -- which for us will be at least $60. In fact, my impression from the tone of the earlier emails was that investors had the *option* to transition their accounts but that if they did not, Vanguard would eventually do it. I know now that is not the case, but those initial emails made it sound that way: "Don't sweat it dude! Vanguard has ya covered..."

More recently, Vanguard is now adamant that all customers must switch or pay fees. If they are that worried about it, but they can't or won't do the transfer themselves (with permission) they should make it a simple process for investors -- a few clicks. As it is, it's a huge PITA for many people, and when you call customer service you are told that there is an almost 1 hour wait time. The hold music is like an ice pick in your ear. In my case at least, there was no call back option.

There is no way I'm going to pay a $60/year fee for something that I have no control over.

I hear TIAA is pretty good. Any other suggestions?
I don't think anybody would recommend TIAA over fidelity or Schwab.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by sajohnson »

Shortening the above post:

"There is no way I'm going to pay a $60/year fee for something that I have no control over.

I hear TIAA is pretty good. Any other suggestions?"
~

"I don't think anybody would recommend TIAA over fidelity or Schwab."

~

OK. What about, say, T. Rowe?

I haven't looked into any other companies because until the other day I had planned to continue with Vanguard for the rest of my life.

I know in the past TIAA-CREF had a very good rep, but so do the others. What is it about Fidelity and Schwab that make them stand out?
“Fund performance comes and goes. Costs go on forever.” – John Bogle | | “The two greatest enemies of the equity fund investor are expenses and emotions.” – John Bogle
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by jebmke »

sajohnson wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:43 am Shortening the above post:

"There is no way I'm going to pay a $60/year fee for something that I have no control over.

I hear TIAA is pretty good. Any other suggestions?"
~

"I don't think anybody would recommend TIAA over fidelity or Schwab."

~

OK. What about, say, T. Rowe?

I haven't looked into any other companies because until the other day I had planned to continue with Vanguard for the rest of my life.

I know in the past TIAA-CREF had a very good rep, but so do the others. What is it about Fidelity and Schwab that make them stand out?
Part of the attraction for some is that they have physical offices in many areas. Schwab has a full service office in my small town (tbf, the county is quite wealthy). Fidelity has offices only an hour away. Not something I need but some like face to face service — at least as a backstop if the call centers get overwhelmed.

I’ve used them all. Fidelity, Schwab and now VG. They each have their advantages and warts.
When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.
Barkingsparrow
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by Barkingsparrow »

I'm almost done with the process of moving my Money Market mutual fund over to a brokerage account, the checkbook is on the way. It was slightly painful to do this, as I had to go through a few hoops due to a different joint ownership scenario. I emailed Vanguard support twice, and did get prompt responses both time - next day.

So now I'm 100% moved to brokerage.
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Cheez-It Guy
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

sajohnson wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:19 pm The pending $20/account fees would upset Bogle a great deal.
Upon what are you basing this statement?
Investment101
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by Investment101 »

jebmke wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 6:23 am
sajohnson wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:43 am Shortening the above post:

"There is no way I'm going to pay a $60/year fee for something that I have no control over.

I hear TIAA is pretty good. Any other suggestions?"
~

"I don't think anybody would recommend TIAA over fidelity or Schwab."

~

OK. What about, say, T. Rowe?

I haven't looked into any other companies because until the other day I had planned to continue with Vanguard for the rest of my life.

I know in the past TIAA-CREF had a very good rep, but so do the others. What is it about Fidelity and Schwab that make them stand out?
Part of the attraction for some is that they have physical offices in many areas. Schwab has a full service office in my small town (tbf, the county is quite wealthy). Fidelity has offices only an hour away. Not something I need but some like face to face service — at least as a backstop if the call centers get overwhelmed.

I’ve used them all. Fidelity, Schwab and now VG. They each have their advantages and warts.
Would love to hear the ads and warts for all three of them, thanks
Investment101
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by Investment101 »

Well I finally did the transition a few hours ago, it wasn't too bad. When they want you to E-sign, it's actually just a click of a button to sign(one click), I thought it would be an actual signature and I had my laptop pen ready, I was surprised by that as I never seen that before anywhere else. There were like 4,5 pages of things to read before you sign, I just skimmed real quick it was to usual T&C I think.

Yesterday I purchased some funds, before the transition today I checked and the purchases were there, so it should be fine right, after transition I will check again.

For the new brokerage there is actually SIPC up to 500k, for the old MF account there wasn't any SIPC , I didn't know that and I didn't even know about SIPC , I googled real quick I think it's to protect us from like "Madoff" or if Vanguard goes bankrupt etc. That's pretty good and another reason to switch to new platform with the SIPC .
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