Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

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nyclon
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by nyclon »

random_walker_77 wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 11:00 am Read up on "Constructive Dismissal" (but note that it's much weaker in the US than in other countries)
This may also be helpful:
North Carolina Employment Law | Is Your Boss Trying to Force You to Quit?

Make clear that you're not resigning. Consult w/ an employment lawyer, who will guide you in how to do this properly to maximize severance compensation.
+1.
You may want to even reiterate your conversation with your manager in writing over email so it’s clear why you think you’re being terminated and need to return equipment.

“Talking” things out leads to no paper trail and your actions can be interpreted in a vacuum, which at this point, look like resignation. So ensure your actions are tied to something back to the employer constructively terminating you.
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celia
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by celia »

DolphinYay wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 10:27 am . . . and maybe we can find something within the company, maybe look on the intranet.
Did you look through their intranet? What could you do for the company? Maybe a position is attached to a group in another part of the country, but since you’re working from home. . .

Just saying . . .
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JoeRetire
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by JoeRetire »

DolphinYay wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 10:27 am I hope BH's can help me understand my situation and whether I have any rights to unemployment benefits.
Only your state can determine of you are eligible for unemployment benefits or not, and only after you apply for them. Everything else is just a guess.
So I log in on September 13 for a few minutes to let the X manager know that I'll pass on her temp project.
That seems to me like you quit rather than being reassigned. If you were in my family, I would have advised you to accept the job and keep looking internally and externally for another.
Two hours later my manager replied saying that he would call me on Monday to work everything out.
That's a good sign.
Since the company offered me some kind of work that it's different than my direct position and VERY short-term, but I refutsed to take it, does it imply that the company can define it as my resignation and therefore I am not entitled to apply for unemployment benefits?
It sounds to me that there are other opportunities at this company, but you apparently decided to stop after one offer for some reason. Your manager said "you can keep looking for something else in the company in the interim..." and it doesn't seem like you have given that a chance to happen. Turning down an offered role and not bothering to look for other roles makes it look to me like you decided to resign.
When do people qualify to legally apply for unemployment benefits?
You can apply any time. If you are still on a payroll, you'll likely be denied.
If I decided to not seek a new job outside this company after I'm kicked out, can I still apply for unemployment?
If you are collecting unemployment benefits, you are expected to be actively pursuing a new job. And when one is offered that is reasonably equivalent to your prior job, you are expected to accept it.

If you decide not to bother seeking a new job you can still apply. Maybe you'll get lucky, but you should expect to be rejected.
I have no clue what this "everything working out" per my manager means, but can I ask for a severence too?
You can ask for anything.
i would probably be denied and I don't know the policy at my company either. I just know that putting words in my mouth about a bogus resignation didn't make me feel happy. I was even considering to become a stay-at-home parent, but now I feel that I might seek another job if that's a requirement to qualify for unemployment because my company is being dishonest.

Thoughts? Advice? Thank you all!
You should go into the meeting with your manager with an open mind. Don't jump to conclusions. No need to be angry or accuse the company of something until you understand what really happened.

And don't assume you'll be able to collect unemployment benefits. Your state will decide that.
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1moreyr
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by 1moreyr »

FreddieFIRE wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:39 pm
oilrig wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:32 pm I know everyone is generally anti-HR on here, but in this case I would go straight to the HR Manager/Director, explain the situation, and see what they have to say.
Everybody is anti-HR? While a manager at Megacorp, HR was often my best friend. The HR function is widely misunderstood and, like many corporate functions, has various roles and responsibilities. I once had an issue that required me and a supervisor who worked for me to have a private meeting with the VP of HR. The man was a genius and provided outstanding guidance.

I believe that at the end of the day, it is the corporate legal function that is steering HR actions that are often perceived as "awful." There are many cogs in the big Megacorp wheel. 8-)
I believe that was the point. HR is great when you are the manager and you need sage advice. Many employees believe HR is to help and benefit them.
This is hardly the case. Just go to linked in and look at HR accomplishments they write about...
1. saving money reducing benefits.
2. saving money in reducing headcount
3. ect....

while these things are great for the company, they don't benefit the employee. The director of HR was a great asset to me when I was a director and I thought a personal friend. When I amicably retired after 29 years with megacorp, she wouldn't even return an email and say all hope all is well, i am directing this to suzy.... She had her minions reached out to me for my requests.

I was dead to her.. :wink:

This was not a one off in my career with HR.
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by oldcomputerguy »

The discussion is getting derailed into a debate over HR personnel. Let's please bring it back to helping the OP with their situation.
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Beensabu
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by Beensabu »

OP: You shouldn't have said anything in writing about turning in your equipment without having anything in writing saying you were being terminated. Try and walk it back.
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by ProsperGoalzz »

oilrig wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 1:53 pm
I have met such people. I've even met a person

A good HR person will act in the best interest of the company AND the employees. I work in HR and have seen a lot of my HR colleagues go above and beyond for employees when the company wanted to do something unethical.
+1. HR spends a lot of time fixing situations created by incompetent managers, who do not respect employees nor understand how their actions can hurt the company and the other good people working there.
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DolphinYay
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by DolphinYay »

nyclon wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 2:44 pm
random_walker_77 wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 11:00 am Read up on "Constructive Dismissal" (but note that it's much weaker in the US than in other countries)
This may also be helpful:
North Carolina Employment Law | Is Your Boss Trying to Force You to Quit?

Make clear that you're not resigning. Consult w/ an employment lawyer, who will guide you in how to do this properly to maximize severance compensation.
+1.
You may want to even reiterate your conversation with your manager in writing over email so it’s clear why you think you’re being terminated and need to return equipment.

“Talking” things out leads to no paper trail and your actions can be interpreted in a vacuum, which at this point, look like resignation. So ensure your actions are tied to something back to the employer constructively terminating you.
I read about the constructive dismissal now, and it seems to relate to my situation, kind of, except that they didn't create terrible conditions to force me to quit. I was just told there isn't really a lot of work for me (but before I went on my long vacation my manager was telling that his employees will need to analyze more data in order to help financial analysts, so go figure now).
Perhaps if I accepted the project job that could have led me to quitting but then company would be able to accuse me that I wasn't trying hard enough or I was incapable of performing my new temp duties or it was my personal problem that I couldn't handle the workload and stress. I should mention that it didn't feel encouraging to me to take this position because not one, but TWO people quit in a short span of time after accepting that role. My manager mentioned one and while chatting with the other manager I learned that another person quit from that same positon. And of course over 2 years (when I worked onsite) I witnessed a lot of people leaving the company after working in that department. So, yep, I chickened out :oops: :D .

I will probably need to write a resignation note either way I think, but I will think how to articulate and make it sound it as constructive dismissal.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. They were helpful. I totally understand that I was too hasty to mention the 'return of equipment' and how it's construed from the company's perspective. If it comes up in the conversation tomorrow I'll try to clarify, but 'the bird is out' either way... Live and learn :oops:
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DolphinYay
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by DolphinYay »

galawdawg wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:09 pm
DolphinYay wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 10:27 am So I log in on September 13 for a few minutes to let the X manager know that I'll pass on her temp project. I also let my manager know and I also say that on Friday he can tell the protocol of returning equipment, etc.
What is the context of "returning equipment, etc" if you did not intend to resign?
Because my manager said there is no work for me anymore and I took it as 'your position is terminated' and hence when I come back after using the 3.5 vacation days I'd be expected to return the company's laptop and monitors
VanGar+Goyle
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by VanGar+Goyle »

toddthebod wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 2:40 pm
DolphinYay wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 10:27 am [Y]ou know there's not much what you do here, but you know we like you and maybe we can find something within the company, maybe look on the intranet. I know that this X manager is looking for somebody to fill in a back-fill position in the AR for 3 months, but you can keep looking for something else in the company in the interim. Would you be interested in talking to the X manager?"

So I log in on September 13 for a few minutes to let the X manager know that I'll pass on her temp project. I also let my manager know and I also say that on Friday he can tell the protocol of returning equipment, etc.
Yeah, you resigned. Hopefully it's not to late to undo.
If you resigned or were laid-off, you would still return equipment and ID badges.
The company may also have policies about severance benefits for lay-offs which may not apply to resignations.

Some states may have additional regulations about timing of lay-offs, 30 or 60 days, but I suspect that you would have access to COBRA either way.
State unemployment insurance after a layoff can be helpful, especially if you spend months looking for a job, but can also be disappointing.
rossington
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by rossington »

DolphinYay wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 9:51 pm
nyclon wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 2:44 pm
random_walker_77 wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 11:00 am Read up on "Constructive Dismissal" (but note that it's much weaker in the US than in other countries)
This may also be helpful:
North Carolina Employment Law | Is Your Boss Trying to Force You to Quit?

Make clear that you're not resigning. Consult w/ an employment lawyer, who will guide you in how to do this properly to maximize severance compensation.
+1.
You may want to even reiterate your conversation with your manager in writing over email so it’s clear why you think you’re being terminated and need to return equipment.

“Talking” things out leads to no paper trail and your actions can be interpreted in a vacuum, which at this point, look like resignation. So ensure your actions are tied to something back to the employer constructively terminating you.
I read about the constructive dismissal now, and it seems to relate to my situation, kind of, except that they didn't create terrible conditions to force me to quit. I was just told there isn't really a lot of work for me (but before I went on my long vacation my manager was telling that his employees will need to analyze more data in order to help financial analysts, so go figure now).
Perhaps if I accepted the project job that could have led me to quitting but then company would be able to accuse me that I wasn't trying hard enough or I was incapable of performing my new temp duties or it was my personal problem that I couldn't handle the workload and stress. I should mention that it didn't feel encouraging to me to take this position because not one, but TWO people quit in a short span of time after accepting that role. My manager mentioned one and while chatting with the other manager I learned that another person quit from that same positon. And of course over 2 years (when I worked onsite) I witnessed a lot of people leaving the company after working in that department. So, yep, I chickened out :oops: :D .

I will probably need to write a resignation note either way I think, but I will think how to articulate and make it sound it as constructive dismissal.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. They were helpful. I totally understand that I was too hasty to mention the 'return of equipment' and how it's construed from the company's perspective. If it comes up in the conversation tomorrow I'll try to clarify, but 'the bird is out' either way... Live and learn :oops:
Hopefully you have your emergency fund in place just in case.
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by LeftCoastIV »

DolphinYay wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 9:51 pm
nyclon wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 2:44 pm
random_walker_77 wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 11:00 am Read up on "Constructive Dismissal" (but note that it's much weaker in the US than in other countries)
This may also be helpful:
North Carolina Employment Law | Is Your Boss Trying to Force You to Quit?

Make clear that you're not resigning. Consult w/ an employment lawyer, who will guide you in how to do this properly to maximize severance compensation.
+1.
You may want to even reiterate your conversation with your manager in writing over email so it’s clear why you think you’re being terminated and need to return equipment.

“Talking” things out leads to no paper trail and your actions can be interpreted in a vacuum, which at this point, look like resignation. So ensure your actions are tied to something back to the employer constructively terminating you.
I read about the constructive dismissal now, and it seems to relate to my situation, kind of, except that they didn't create terrible conditions to force me to quit. I was just told there isn't really a lot of work for me (but before I went on my long vacation my manager was telling that his employees will need to analyze more data in order to help financial analysts, so go figure now).
Perhaps if I accepted the project job that could have led me to quitting but then company would be able to accuse me that I wasn't trying hard enough or I was incapable of performing my new temp duties or it was my personal problem that I couldn't handle the workload and stress. I should mention that it didn't feel encouraging to me to take this position because not one, but TWO people quit in a short span of time after accepting that role. My manager mentioned one and while chatting with the other manager I learned that another person quit from that same positon. And of course over 2 years (when I worked onsite) I witnessed a lot of people leaving the company after working in that department. So, yep, I chickened out :oops: :D .

I will probably need to write a resignation note either way I think, but I will think how to articulate and make it sound it as constructive dismissal.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. They were helpful. I totally understand that I was too hasty to mention the 'return of equipment' and how it's construed from the company's perspective. If it comes up in the conversation tomorrow I'll try to clarify, but 'the bird is out' either way... Live and learn :oops:
Why do you think you need to write a resignation note? That is probably the last thing you want to do right now. Related, if you decide to take the temp job, I would ask for an explanation in writing of what happens at the end of the year, and if severance would be provided if you are unable to find a role after the end of the year (before you accept the job).
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JoeRetire
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by JoeRetire »

DolphinYay wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 9:51 pm I will probably need to write a resignation note either way I think, but I will think how to articulate and make it sound it as constructive dismissal.
I don't think it will work. But if you intend to pursue the "constructive dismissal" argument, DO NOT write a resignation note, or anything else, on your own. Engage an employment attorney.

And of course you never actually need to write a resignation note anyway.

At least have the planned conversation with your manager before you do anything rash that would cause you problems down the road.
Last edited by JoeRetire on Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by galawdawg »

Unfortunately a difficult lesson perhaps in acting rashly and speaking before you think. While I am certainly no expert in employment law, I see nothing in your posts that would support a claim of constructive dismissal.

What I see is an employer with potential financial issues that are resulting in outsourcing some jobs overseas and reassignment of current employees in order to better meet the needs of the employer. Your manager suggested that in looking at revenue and expenses in your department "there's not much what you do here" but indicated you are a valued employee, provided an option for you to accept a temporary reassignment and suggested that while you were on that assignment you could look at other roles within the company. Nothing about that or anything else you describe would constitute a viable claim for constructive dismissal.

Your response after speaking with the manager for the temporary role was to immediately take the remaining accrued vacation time you had left after your "long vacation" of just a few weeks ago and the next day (while still using your vacation leave) you advised your manager that you were not going to accept the temporary assignment and that as soon as you returned from your vacation time on Friday he could advise you about how to return any company property.

So instead of recognizing that you might still have a role in the organization, you essentially quit and then came on Bogleheads posting how your company "is being dishonest". Now, you can certainly ask for severance or file for unemployment if you don't want to return to work or if returning is no longer an option, but don't be surprised if you don't receive either. To answer the question you posed, you were not laid off, terminated, downsized or fired. You quit.

That being said, perhaps you could speak to your manager today with hat in hand, let him know that you took a few days to think over your options, that you would appreciate the opportunity to remain with the company and if that temporary assignment is where you are needed, you are happy to fill that role. If they allow you to stay, do your best in that temporary role, continue to look for other opportunities within the company and be sure you are prepared for the possibility that at the end of the year you are laid off or downsized. If that happens, you would be eligible for severance and/or unemployment, depending upon the laws of the state(s) involved. In the meantime, keep your resume and your professional network up-to-date, be sure you have a robust emergency fund, contribute up to the limits of your 401k plan and consider whether there are medical or similar benefits you need to "use or lose" before the end of the year.

Good luck.
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by MikeG62 »

Beensabu wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 4:51 pm OP: You shouldn't have said anything in writing about turning in your equipment without having anything in writing saying you were being terminated. Try and walk it back.
I agree with this.

Having said that I don't agree with most of the posts here. It seems to me (IANAL, but I worked in the C-suite of large public company for two decades) that if the company eliminated your position you are entitled to severance pay (under whatever policy they have). When resigning, you typically are not (in my experience). If you choose not to accept a "temporary" role that would not be a logical move for someone with your skill set (does nothing to further your career), then I think you are being severed and would be entitled to compensation. I don't necessarily see this as your resigning. After all, if they offer you a job emptying the trash cans and cleaning the office, and you passed on it is this "resigning"? I think not.

What worries me is the way you handled this - firing off an inflammatory email that sounds like you are resigning. You should have sat with your boss and talked this through. Temp role makes no sense for you logically and is simply a landing spot before you are forced out. If they are eliminating your role, you'd like to know what severance applies, etc...

Try and damage control this and see if there is money coming your way on the way out the door. Being forced to take a position that makes no sense based upon your background in a department where there is very high turnover and very long hours doesn't seem like a fair offer to me on their part.
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by tashnewbie »

OP, I think there's a lot going on here. I think the root of this situation is that unfortunately, your manager did a poor job of communicating the employer's intention, and you unfortunately didn't ask for clarification.

I think I can make a decent argument on both sides of this, i.e., that the facts as presented constitute a resignation or they constitute a layoff. I am not admitted to the practice of law in NC or SC and I'm not an employment law attorney, so I don't know how the law would be applied in the relevant state(s) to these facts.

Despite the confusing set of facts (in my mind, at least), what strikes me is that it is not clear what your intentions/desires are, OP.

Do you want to keep a position at this company? Do you want to be on unemployment now (rather than after the temporary role)? Do you want a new external job?

I think you need to figure out what you want, and then you'll need to adapt your behavior accordingly. If you want to keep a position at this company, then at today's meeting with your manager, you need to try to take back what you communicated last week. You should tell them you were confused about what was happening and that you'd be happy to take the temporary role if that's where you are currently needed. Then you should spend the term of that role looking for other jobs, both internally and externally. Good luck to you!
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by JoMoney »

There is some variations in how unemployment works in different states, but I don't believe you can refuse a job offer and collect unemployment benefits, unless you can show the job is not "suitable" for reasons like excessive commute, too low pay, overly physically demanding.
That said, in my state I know of many anecdotal stories of people filing for unemployment anyway, and my understanding is it winds up going back on the employer to dispute your claim and often they don't want to spend the time and expense of disputing it which can be harder to do unless they have a paper trail of things like a resignation letter, you refusing work, reprimand letters of you doing something to be fired for cause.
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by toddthebod »

DolphinYay wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 9:51 pm I will probably need to write a resignation note either way I think, but I will think how to articulate and make it sound it as constructive dismissal.
The majority of the people offering advice to you have suggested you take the temporary assignment and look for something else. You however picked up on a few (frankly misguided) comments that support your preconceived notions and latched onto those. It is not going to work out for you the way you hope.
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by JoeRetire »

DolphinYay wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 10:27 amI was even considering to become a stay-at-home parent, but now I feel that I might seek another job if that's a requirement to qualify for unemployment because my company is being dishonest.
Did you think you could be a stay-at-home parent while collecting unemployment benefits?
Oh, noooooo! I'm so sorry, it's the moops! The correct answer is 'the moops'.
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by oilrig »

ProsperGoalzz wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 7:54 pm
oilrig wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 1:53 pm
I have met such people. I've even met a person

A good HR person will act in the best interest of the company AND the employees. I work in HR and have seen a lot of my HR colleagues go above and beyond for employees when the company wanted to do something unethical.
+1. HR spends a lot of time fixing situations created by incompetent managers, who do not respect employees nor understand how their actions can hurt the company and the other good people working there.
100% agree! Ive seen time and time again where managers wanted to fire an employee for a dumb reason, and HR had to step in and stop this from happening.
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by oilrig »

1moreyr wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 4:18 pm
FreddieFIRE wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:39 pm
oilrig wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:32 pm I know everyone is generally anti-HR on here, but in this case I would go straight to the HR Manager/Director, explain the situation, and see what they have to say.
Everybody is anti-HR? While a manager at Megacorp, HR was often my best friend. The HR function is widely misunderstood and, like many corporate functions, has various roles and responsibilities. I once had an issue that required me and a supervisor who worked for me to have a private meeting with the VP of HR. The man was a genius and provided outstanding guidance.

I believe that at the end of the day, it is the corporate legal function that is steering HR actions that are often perceived as "awful." There are many cogs in the big Megacorp wheel. 8-)
I believe that was the point. HR is great when you are the manager and you need sage advice. Many employees believe HR is to help and benefit them.
This is hardly the case. Just go to linked in and look at HR accomplishments they write about...
1. saving money reducing benefits.
2. saving money in reducing headcount
3. ect....

while these things are great for the company, they don't benefit the employee. The director of HR was a great asset to me when I was a director and I thought a personal friend. When I amicably retired after 29 years with megacorp, she wouldn't even return an email and say all hope all is well, i am directing this to suzy.... She had her minions reached out to me for my requests.

I was dead to her.. :wink:

This was not a one off in my career with HR.
FYI, HR typically isn't the decision maker on reducing benefits or headcount. We don't want people to lose their jobs. The CEO/CFO/SVP typically decides its time to cut costs and reduce headcount, then give the direction to HR to do it. Of course HR gets the blame for everything when its typically not our fault.
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by sailaway »

I hope OP comes back this evening with an update.
Last edited by sailaway on Mon Sep 19, 2022 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
retireIn2020
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by retireIn2020 »

This scenario of shifting one's work to offshore (in IT/Management) and or moving one's work to another state (Union) happened all the time at my previous MEGA Corp.

Protocol for those employees was to make a decision between two options.
1) Take new position or move with work, wait for layoff/termination THEN you can collect severance and unemployment insurance.
or,
2) Voluntary resignation (No severance and no unemployment).

As far as HR, they did represent the company, they did coach managers on how to properly handle these situations, and they did step in for disputes between managers and employees.
Retired as of July 2020
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by JackoC »

Beensabu wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 4:51 pm OP: You shouldn't have said anything in writing about turning in your equipment without having anything in writing saying you were being terminated. Try and walk it back.
I think that summarizes it best. I could see (don't know, since I'm not one and haven't consulted one) a lawyer specializing in NC employment law might conclude that based on what OP's says happened (not what they can prove necessarily) OP was fired. That's despite the assumption of many posters that a company telling a person their position no longer exists but 'we like you and you can look on the company intranet for something else' isn't firing them. My layman's view would be that *is* firing somebody. But that difference in layman's opinion isn't the central point. Seems to me the central point of the reported facts as you say is that that there's no record of the vague (at least as reported by OP) conversation between OP and manager, but OP wrote an email which on its own looks like 'I resign'.
toddthebod
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by toddthebod »

JackoC wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 11:48 am
Beensabu wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 4:51 pm OP: You shouldn't have said anything in writing about turning in your equipment without having anything in writing saying you were being terminated. Try and walk it back.
I think that summarizes it best. I could see (don't know, since I'm not one and haven't consulted one) a lawyer specializing in NC employment law might conclude that based on what OP's says happened (not what they can prove necessarily) OP was fired. That's despite the assumption of many posters that a company telling a person their position no longer exists but 'we like you and you can look on the company intranet for something else' isn't firing them. My layman's view would be that *is* firing somebody. But that difference in layman's opinion isn't the central point. Seems to me the central point of the reported facts as you say is that that there's no record of the vague (at least as reported by OP) conversation between OP and manager, but OP wrote an email which on its own looks like 'I resign'.
That ignores the fact that they were offered a position on a new team which they turned down:

"We don't have enough work on this team, but we have another project you can work on."

"No thanks. Where should I turn in my stuff?"
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by gtrplayer »

At least in my state, a person can resign and get unemployment if they are reassigned to a position that they are unskilled and and is dissimilar from the position they were hired for. If my employer told me tomorrow I was being reassigned to be a computer programmer and my only other option was quitting, I might still get unemployment because I have no history or background as a computer programmer and my current job has nothing to do with computer programming.

The point is that employers can’t get around paying unemployment by putting people in positions they are inevitably going to fail at and be fired for cause.

But if the company can say you are qualified for the position they are offering, even if it’s different from your own, you probably have to take it or are considered resigning.
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by JackoC »

toddthebod wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 12:00 pm
JackoC wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 11:48 am
Beensabu wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 4:51 pm OP: You shouldn't have said anything in writing about turning in your equipment without having anything in writing saying you were being terminated. Try and walk it back.
I think that summarizes it best. I could see (don't know, since I'm not one and haven't consulted one) a lawyer specializing in NC employment law might conclude that based on what OP's says happened (not what they can prove necessarily) OP was fired. That's despite the assumption of many posters that a company telling a person their position no longer exists but 'we like you and you can look on the company intranet for something else' isn't firing them. My layman's view would be that *is* firing somebody. But that difference in layman's opinion isn't the central point. Seems to me the central point of the reported facts as you say is that that there's no record of the vague (at least as reported by OP) conversation between OP and manager, but OP wrote an email which on its own looks like 'I resign'.
That ignores the fact that they were offered a position on a new team which they turned down:

"We don't have enough work on this team, but we have another project you can work on."

"No thanks. Where should I turn in my stuff?"
That's characterizing it a little differently than OP actually reported it, which was own manager only said 'you don't do much for us but we like you and you can look on the company intranet for something else', and turned out there was some short term position there. Does that mean OP wasn't fired? I would say OP was fired, but a) the only meaningful result would be a local employment lawyer similarly opining based on a written record, b) there's no written record of that conversation on which to opine. Whereas OP's written communication implied they were quitting. So Beensabu summed it up: shouldn't write an email in such a situation in absence of a written record from the employer showing what employer action you're responding to. Nothing's being ignored.
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by 1moreyr »

oilrig wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 11:08 am
1moreyr wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 4:18 pm
FreddieFIRE wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:39 pm
oilrig wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:32 pm I know everyone is generally anti-HR on here, but in this case I would go straight to the HR Manager/Director, explain the situation, and see what they have to say.
Everybody is anti-HR? While a manager at Megacorp, HR was often my best friend. The HR function is widely misunderstood and, like many corporate functions, has various roles and responsibilities. I once had an issue that required me and a supervisor who worked for me to have a private meeting with the VP of HR. The man was a genius and provided outstanding guidance.

I believe that at the end of the day, it is the corporate legal function that is steering HR actions that are often perceived as "awful." There are many cogs in the big Megacorp wheel. 8-)
I believe that was the point. HR is great when you are the manager and you need sage advice. Many employees believe HR is to help and benefit them.
This is hardly the case. Just go to linked in and look at HR accomplishments they write about...
1. saving money reducing benefits.
2. saving money in reducing headcount
3. ect....

while these things are great for the company, they don't benefit the employee. The director of HR was a great asset to me when I was a director and I thought a personal friend. When I amicably retired after 29 years with megacorp, she wouldn't even return an email and say all hope all is well, i am directing this to suzy.... She had her minions reached out to me for my requests.

I was dead to her.. :wink:

This was not a one off in my career with HR.
FYI, HR typically isn't the decision maker on reducing benefits or headcount. We don't want people to lose their jobs. The CEO/CFO/SVP typically decides its time to cut costs and reduce headcount, then give the direction to HR to do it. Of course HR gets the blame for everything when its typically not our fault.
I am not anti HR... but HR is a tool and the OP needs to understand the tool.... as a manager and as an employee.

The other post talked to how HR helped him as a manager. .... That's great thats what they are supposed to do.
OP is an employee going to HR..... I am not saying it shouldn't be done. but it should be done with what I wrote above in mine.

My real point is HR works for the company , not employees. I didn't see you dispute that. Telling someone to go to the HR director should be kept in this context of what they should say, When an employee shares something with HR. it is still talking to the company. Sure HR may protect an employee from getting fired in a situation but it's really about avoiding a lawsuit for a company.

That's fine, it's the way it is.... Some employees think HR is their friend.. it doesn't work that way. Conversations with HR should be had in that light.

and yea......
We all have things we are handed down from a CEO but it doesn't change our involvement of what we consider "accomplishment" (benefit cost control, Headcount control etc....)
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by CletusCaddy »

Two pages of posts and no one has yet mentioned that OP still has a trump card to play.

One has not officially given notice until one…gives notice, including when one’s last day will be.

OP is still employed until they formally give notice of their last day. Simply asking “where do I turn in my stuff” doesn’t count as resigning.
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by Marseille07 »

CletusCaddy wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:01 pm Two pages of posts and no one has yet mentioned that OP still has a trump card to play.

One has not officially given notice until one…gives notice, including when one’s last day will be.

OP is still employed until they formally give notice of their last day. Simply asking “where do I turn in my stuff” doesn’t count as resigning.
Plenty of posters spoke against them writing a resignation note.

Your interpretation is correct, the OP is not fired; they're still employed.
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by Katietsu »

Marseille07 wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:25 pm
CletusCaddy wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:01 pm Two pages of posts and no one has yet mentioned that OP still has a trump card to play.

One has not officially given notice until one…gives notice, including when one’s last day will be.

OP is still employed until they formally give notice of their last day. Simply asking “where do I turn in my stuff” doesn’t count as resigning.
Plenty of posters spoke against them writing a resignation note.

Your interpretation is correct, the OP is not fired; they're still employed.
It does also seem unsettled as to whether OP has accepted that if a company eliminates your position and you turn down an alternative position, you are unlikely to be eligible for unemployment insurance. It is also unclear as to whether the OP has a realistic view on what constitutes constructive dismissal.

And it is now Monday evening. I wonder if there were any status changes today.
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by Marseille07 »

Katietsu wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:38 pm It does also seem unsettled as to whether OP has accepted that if a company eliminates your position and you turn down an alternative position, you are unlikely to be eligible for unemployment insurance. It is also unclear as to whether the OP has a realistic view on what constitutes constructive dismissal.

And it is now Monday evening. I wonder if there were any status changes today.
The only extent so far was that they asked about returning the equipment, and I do not believe this constituted resignation.

Turning down the short-term project was a bad move, but I don't believe they were laid off just yet, at least it would be communicated very clearly if so, not something the OP had to speculate.

I am waiting for an update as well. They might have written a resignation note during the day.
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by JBTX »

Oddly enough I’ve been in a “you resigned!” …”no I didn’t” twice.

In the first scenario I insisted I didn’t and luckily another executive brought me on for about another 6 months, after which I was able to get a severance.

The second time, first they said I was fired, then they said I resigned. Ultimately I applied for unemployment and made the case to the state workforce commission that I was effectively laid off - I was put in a situation that was untenable and unresolvable (which in my view was true). They actually ruled in my favor.

If it gets to the point that you are out the door and they insist you resigned, then be prepared to demonstrate to the state workforce commission that you were constructively laid off. You have a lot to work with, all the conversations about how they are shedding resources, etc. No formal / written resignation. They never explicitly said that if you didn’t take the other job you would be out. In fact I don’t even know if you are obligated to take another such position. If you think you may be unemployed a while it is probably worth at least a consultation with an employment lawyer.
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by Kagord »

Katietsu wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 2:22 pm
galawdawg wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:09 pm
DolphinYay wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 10:27 am So I log in on September 13 for a few minutes to let the X manager know that I'll pass on her temp project. I also let my manager know and I also say that on Friday he can tell the protocol of returning equipment, etc.
What is the context of "returning equipment, etc" if you did not intend to resign?
If so were the manager, I would assume this meant that the employee was resigning.

If the company eliminates your position and you decline an offer of a different position, you have resigned.

OP, why do you feel the company is being dishonest?
Agree, some managers struggle to deliver tough messages clearly, I wouldn't be surprised if HR directed the manager to communicate the resignation received, and now it's going to be even more of a mess by that "let's talk" communication, I think that's what happened here. I would put that manager on a PIP if I was the boss.

So yeah, this probably wasn't a nefarious plot to get out of unemployment costs, just horrible communication and a manager digging a hole.
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by JackoC »

JBTX wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:57 am Oddly enough I’ve been in a “you resigned!” …”no I didn’t” twice.

In the first scenario I insisted I didn’t and luckily another executive brought me on for about another 6 months, after which I was able to get a severance.

The second time, first they said I was fired, then they said I resigned. Ultimately I applied for unemployment and made the case to the state workforce commission that I was effectively laid off - I was put in a situation that was untenable and unresolvable (which in my view was true). They actually ruled in my favor.

If it gets to the point that you are out the door and they insist you resigned, then be prepared to demonstrate to the state workforce commission that you were constructively laid off. You have a lot to work with, all the conversations about how they are shedding resources, etc. No formal / written resignation. They never explicitly said that if you didn’t take the other job you would be out. In fact I don’t even know if you are obligated to take another such position. If you think you may be unemployed a while it is probably worth at least a consultation with an employment lawyer.
Interesting experience and I also wonder about the bolded. Great majority of posters take it as given that you are quitting if your job gets eliminated, boss tells you 'you can look on the company intranet for something else' and it turns out there is something else which isn't what you do now and has a 3 month expiration date. I doubt it's quitting to simply say 'I don't want to look on the company intranet for a different job, I want to retain my current job' to which the company can say 'no, we're sorry, you are terminated' but then it's clear. But only a lawyer versed in the state's employment law could tell you the specifics and have it mean anything.
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by GreendaleCC »

So what happened???
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by JBTX »

JackoC wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:05 am
JBTX wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:57 am Oddly enough I’ve been in a “you resigned!” …”no I didn’t” twice.

In the first scenario I insisted I didn’t and luckily another executive brought me on for about another 6 months, after which I was able to get a severance.

The second time, first they said I was fired, then they said I resigned. Ultimately I applied for unemployment and made the case to the state workforce commission that I was effectively laid off - I was put in a situation that was untenable and unresolvable (which in my view was true). They actually ruled in my favor.

If it gets to the point that you are out the door and they insist you resigned, then be prepared to demonstrate to the state workforce commission that you were constructively laid off. You have a lot to work with, all the conversations about how they are shedding resources, etc. No formal / written resignation. They never explicitly said that if you didn’t take the other job you would be out. In fact I don’t even know if you are obligated to take another such position. If you think you may be unemployed a while it is probably worth at least a consultation with an employment lawyer.
Interesting experience and I also wonder about the bolded. Great majority of posters take it as given that you are quitting if your job gets eliminated, boss tells you 'you can look on the company intranet for something else' and it turns out there is something else which isn't what you do now and has a 3 month expiration date. I doubt it's quitting to simply say 'I don't want to look on the company intranet for a different job, I want to retain my current job' to which the company can say 'no, we're sorry, you are terminated' but then it's clear. But only a lawyer versed in the state's employment law could tell you the specifics and have it mean anything.
Yeah I don’t know, and agree on the lawyer. It’s just good not to make assumptions on such things. What people think is conventional wisdom or “appropriate” workplace behavior doesn’t always exactly align with what employment law would say. In many states employment is at will and they can terminate you for just about any reason, as long as they aren’t violating laws surrounding protected classes. But if they terminate you, typically they owe you unemployment. If they eliminate your position, then offer a different temporary position, that you don’t want and assert you resigned because you didn’t take, in order to avoid unemployment payout, that seems problematic. There is a decent chance if terminated employee explained the situation, in the correct way, in a call to the state workforce commission they would rule in the employees favor, and them employer may choose not to fight. I suspect that is what happened in my case. Nonetheless that is speculation and if the potential unemployment comp is material and important then legal counsel would be appropriate. If one expects to only be out of work a few weeks then why waste time and money on an attorney.
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by student »

I hope OP updates us as he/she was suppose to talk to the manager on Monday.
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by Marseille07 »

student wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:39 pm I hope OP updates us as he/she was suppose to talk to the manager on Monday.
Yeah, we need an update. Super curious if they turned in a resignation note.
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by Bimmer »

Any update??
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by whodidntante »

I can provide an update, but the topic will be different. :happy
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Re: Am I being terminated or fired/laid-off? Employer says I'm resigning :x)

Post by sailaway »

whodidntante wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:05 pm I can provide an update, but the topic will be different. :happy
I had goodish news today, but again, not OP and not employment related....
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