Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

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Californiastate
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Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:52 am

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by Californiastate »

I keep forgetting that other states smell gasoline at their fuel stations.
stoptothink
Posts: 11993
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:53 am

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by stoptothink »

aquaman wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:57 am
smitcat wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:12 am
just frank wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:06 am
smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:00 pm I am revisiting looking at EV's and really want to know what people actually pay for charging on trips - do you know what the current costs are and how to locate the fast chargers out there?
I'm in the middle of a EV vacation right now, and will share my (non-Tesla) process....

You need a route planner. My trip was about 400 miles one way mostly along I-95, and I wanted to arrive with at least 40% charge (so I can drive around my destination after arrival). Should I stop once and charge for a long time, should I stop three times and charge for a little? What if there are changes in elevation along my route that affect battery usage...do I need to take that into account?

ABRP (A better route planner) is a free app (with pay upgrades) that does all that thinking for you. I use the free version on my phone. I told it my start and destination, and that I was starting with 100% SOC (charge) and wanted to have 50% SOC when I arrived 400 miles later. It then found DCFCs along my route, and (knowing the SOC-dependent charging speed of my vehicle) found the **optimum** stopping points and charging times for total travel time. I did this in my living room the morning before I left, waiting for my kid to wake up.

It found two stops, the first in a large shopping area, the latter in an older small mall. Both less than 1 mile off the HW. It suggested about 90 minutes charging (total) and 6.5 hrs drive time. So 8 hours with stops.

That took 3 minutes.

I then pasted these stops into a second app, Plugshare, to check their ratings/availability/ and on-line status. PlugShare also tells you prices. Both stops were well rated (9/10 and 10/10) with a large number of stalls (12 and 6, IIRC), and people posting that they had used them the day before, so not much to worry about

I noted that 3 of the 12 stalls in the first place (EA) were off-line. 9 working would be aok.

That took another 2 minutes.

Then for my trip I pasted the first DCFC into my nav app (app #3) (I like AppleMaps bc I like the real time traffic avoidance) and used that. My Bolt has wireless Apple CarPlay, so I get the nav on a 10" screen. There was some traffic which I got rerouted around, adding 20 miles to get there faster... this was not an issue, bc ARBP was giving me a 60 mile 'buffer' of range at arrival at each station... no worries.

At the first DCFC there were 12 stalls, and all **looked** like they were operational. There were two Kona's there already charging. Since I knew that 3 were off-line, I checked the EA app, reminded myself that 2, 6 and 7 were down, and parked at #5. Started App #4 (Electrify America pay app) and was charging in <30 seconds.

We then checked google (app #5) for restaurants that would pass muster with my picky passengers, and found a nice Italian sit down place a 3 minute walk away. And had a lovely lunch there, and were back in the car in 60 minutes. Technically, ABRP doesn't take our food prefs into account (yet) so we had to risk our food choices given the constraint of DCFC picked by ABRP. I had previously noted in Plugshare that there was a McDonanlds next to the DCFC, so I knew we wouldn't starve, LOL.

After the hour charge (ABRP said we needed 45 minutes, we overcharged), we could've made it to the destination on 'fumes', but we kept the second stop so to arrive with a half full tank. At that place, we stretched our legs for 20 minutes just to top off the car, and were on our way. There there were 6 stalls and one other EV charging). All were working (EVGo). I opened a 6th app (EVGO) and charging initiated in 30 seconds.

The DCFC's charged me I think $0.30/kWh for 70 kWh of juice and 250 miles of range. Like $22. Same as 'cheap gas' I suppose.

At my rental house destination, I brought a L1 EVSE and a 25' 12 AWG extension cord. I found a suitable plug within extension cord range and have charged at 1.4 kW maybe 12 hours a day while here. This adds 50-60 miles per day, which is all we need. We will leave to go home with a 75% full tank. We are 'stealing' about $20 worth of juice on a $2.5k rental. I can sleep well at night. I might leave an extra box of K-cups or some booze as compensation.

---------

Summary: My trip here required 6 apps and 6 total minutes of my attention !! Oh, my aching index finger. There was no stress and no drama and no range anxiety. The car never went below 50 miles range. I have been doing this EV car trip thing for awhile (7 years) so it is pretty smooth. If I drove a Tesla, I think the in car nav might've done all of that app work in a singe app on-screen. I dunno. In practice, the 6 apps were familiar and I didn't need that integration. So went my experience with the 'hellscape' that is currently 'non-existent' non-Tesla DCFCs, in an EV has 'horrible' DCFC speed (according to EV drivers).

----------

Anecdote: At the first stop, after lunch, I noticed a man in a suit, next to a rather posh EV (forget which) in stall #6. He looked exasperated and was yelling into his phone (to an EA representative). I asked him how he was doing and if I could help him. He barked out that he had been there for 30 minutes and not gotten an electron yet, and moved his car twice, just to a third stall (#6). I told him (1) that stalls 2, 6 and 7 were listed off line in the apps (but not on the units) and (2) that the units screens were reporting '0 kW' for several minutes after the charge had started to flow (per the vehicle display). He thanked me for the info, and I boogied.

This fellow had spent $$$ for an EV that could charge 2-3X faster than mine, saving him 20-30 minutes per stop. And then was uninformed about the apps/process. And didn't even look in the EA app to check stall status. And in the end stressed himself out and cost himself 30 minutes.

He will now rant on line about how he should've gotten a Tesla, and how EA is awful, and there are no working DCFCs, even along I-95. I know, bc I read posts like that every day.

My conclusion: a DCFC station is NOT like a gas station. No attendant. The margins are too low to pay for one. When a gas pump goes off line (which I see lots of) the attendant hangs a sign on it. At a DCFC station, the unit reports back to the cloud, and the app pushes out the info. You might think the unit would display in big red letter that it is off-line, nope. Secondary effect... lots of the credit card readers on these unattended machines get hacked... so I will never us the CC feature (having my card stolen after a single use). So I have to have a few apps/accounts set up to charge. Meh.

Thing 1: I think the EA machines ARE a little wonky, should have more up-time and better communication. And I am sure that that will happen over the next year or two. They're new. EVGO used to be bad, now they are fine. This is the herky-jerky nature of 'progress'.

Thing 2: the legacy car makers and their dealers are dropping the ball on educating their customer. I have never gotten any useful info on how to do any of the above from a car salesman. None of them even drive EVs themselves and have no clue.
Thank you for all the details.
As we look into this more it appears this is a bit too early for us to make the change.
I also really appreciate all the details and find this to be one of the most helpful posts in this thread.

To me, this sounds like a ton of hassle without an associated payoff. Unfortunately, it sounds like the infrastructure is still a good 5-7+ years away from ironing out the kinks (unless you have a Tesla, and even then it still has a ton of pain points), although I'd certainly love for this assessment to be proven overly pessimistic. I also actually get the reason that many EV enthusiasts read the above and think that it's not a big deal. As I've previously mentioned, I much prefer manual transmissions myself and find them quite enjoyable. Most other drivers obviously disagree, as there is very little demand for them and most people have no idea how to drive them.

The difference, to me, is that I don't think that there is any way to reasonably characterize the "on the go" charging process as somehow making EV ownership more fun, easier, more dynamic, etc... Instead, it is something that makes road trips slower, more rigid and less flexible, and even at current elevated gas prices, the "on the go" fast charging prices won't save you any money either.

I do very much appreciate the info though and am finding the overall thread quite helpful.
Exactly where we are at. I'm glad we have another 5yrs or so before we'll be looking for another vehicle. I'm still not convinced the math, the current charging infrastructure, and the availability of options makes sense for us (with our driving habits) to change to an EV just yet.
02nz
Posts: 8474
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:17 pm

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 02nz »

aquaman wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:57 am and even at current elevated gas prices, the "on the go" fast charging prices won't save you any money either.
It depends on the location, but often even DC fast charging is significantly cheaper than gas. Gasoline averages $5.53/gallon in CA right now, and typically DCFC stations in CA charge around 40 cents/KWHr. Assuming an EV gets 3 miles/KWHr, that means you need to average about 43 MPG or higher in a gas car to come out cheaper. And generally where gas is cheaper, so is DCFC (e.g., I randomly looked up an EVgo in Dallas, TX and found the DCFC costs 27 cents/KWHr; another in FL is 31 cents).

Obviously nobody gets an EV primarily to save money on road trips, the real cost savings come from home charging.
Valuethinker
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by Valuethinker »

Californiastate wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:59 am I keep forgetting that other states smell gasoline at their fuel stations.
It staggers the mind but in Canada we know of houses that have been blighted because of adjacent fuel stations.

I remember just enough chemistry to know what a stupid (and, largely, fixable) idea it is to let gasoline vapor out.
aquaman
Posts: 308
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by aquaman »

02nz wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:15 am
aquaman wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:57 am and even at current elevated gas prices, the "on the go" fast charging prices won't save you any money either.
It depends on the location, but often even DC fast charging is significantly cheaper than gas. Gasoline averages $5.53/gallon in CA right now, and typically DCFC stations in CA charge around 40 cents/KWHr. Assuming an EV gets 3 miles/KWHr, that means you need to average about 43 MPG or higher in a gas car to come out cheaper. And generally where gas is cheaper, so is DCFC (e.g., I randomly looked up an EVgo in Dallas, TX and found the DCFC costs 27 cents/KWHr; another in FL is 31 cents).

Obviously nobody gets an EV primarily to save money on road trips, the real cost savings come from home charging.
I appreciate the info. I am not in California, and regular is currently between $3.35 - $3.39/gallon all over the place here. I've checked and the non-Tesla fast chargers here are cheaper as well, as they seem to be around 30 cents/KWHr (although some seem to charge per minute instead).
02nz
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 02nz »

aquaman wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:26 am
02nz wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:15 am
aquaman wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:57 am and even at current elevated gas prices, the "on the go" fast charging prices won't save you any money either.
It depends on the location, but often even DC fast charging is significantly cheaper than gas. Gasoline averages $5.53/gallon in CA right now, and typically DCFC stations in CA charge around 40 cents/KWHr. Assuming an EV gets 3 miles/KWHr, that means you need to average about 43 MPG or higher in a gas car to come out cheaper. And generally where gas is cheaper, so is DCFC (e.g., I randomly looked up an EVgo in Dallas, TX and found the DCFC costs 27 cents/KWHr; another in FL is 31 cents).

Obviously nobody gets an EV primarily to save money on road trips, the real cost savings come from home charging.
I appreciate the info. I am not in California, and regular is currently between $3.35 - $3.39/gallon all over the place here. I've checked and the non-Tesla fast chargers here are cheaper as well, as they seem to be around 30 cents/KWHr (although some seem to charge per minute instead).
In some areas charging by KWHr is not allowed if you're not a utility company. It's a stupid rule, as a Bolt drawing 50 KW obviously shouldn't be charged the same rate as an Ioniq 5 that draws 5 times that much. But some jurisdictions are hell-bent on doing all they can to hinder EV adoption.
7eight9
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 7eight9 »

just frank wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:06 am Summary: My trip here required 6 apps and 6 total minutes of my attention !! Oh, my aching index finger. There was no stress and no drama and no range anxiety. The car never went below 50 miles range. I have been doing this EV car trip thing for awhile (7 years) so it is pretty smooth. If I drove a Tesla, I think the in car nav might've done all of that app work in a singe app on-screen. I dunno. In practice, the 6 apps were familiar and I didn't need that integration. So went my experience with the 'hellscape' that is currently 'non-existent' non-Tesla DCFCs, in an EV that has 'horrible' and 'the worst' DCFC speed (according to EV drivers).
This is why non-Tesla EVs are not ready for prime time. I can easily drive 400 miles in any direction with my Camry without doing any planning with respect to refueling. I won't need to refuel but if I want to there won't be a single app involved. And it will be quick.

When we drove 277 miles from Los Angeles to Las Vegas my wife planned out where we would stop to recharge the Leaf S. We had six spots picked out - three in one location and three in another. As I wrote previously ...First stop at a Walmart - chargers in the parking lot. No CHAdeMO chargers. On to a mall where there were charges. Drove around for a while and finally found them. There were four chargers - three in use and one broken. We waited for a BMW to finish charging. Plugged in and went to walk the mall. Walked around - came back and the car wasn't charged up enough. Walked again. Then drove on. Stopped in Baker. Found chargers behind the World's Tallest Thermometer. The first two we tried were out of order. The third worked. Went inside and killed a bunch of time waiting. Not a positive experience.

It is pretty much a certainty that the Leaf will never again leave the Las Vegas Valley. It is in my opinion worthless for anything other than commuting. And for that it isn't very good.
I guess it all could be much worse. | They could be warming up my hearse.
gougou
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Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:42 pm

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by gougou »

hunoraut wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:13 am i don't know why this re-energizing is such a sticky battleground.

every american over the age of 16 has experience with fueling up a car, and understands what a non-issue it is.
every ev owner is sharing experience charging (at home and on the road), and is expressing what a non-issue it is.

and yet there's still hand-wringing about how laborious and imaginatively-difficult either of those things *must be*.
I own a Tesla and I’m telling people that supercharging is a waste of time. Definitely an issue for me. Can’t imagine anything that’s slower than a supercharger would ever work.
cmr79
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:25 pm

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by cmr79 »

7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:50 am
just frank wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:06 am Summary: My trip here required 6 apps and 6 total minutes of my attention !! Oh, my aching index finger. There was no stress and no drama and no range anxiety. The car never went below 50 miles range. I have been doing this EV car trip thing for awhile (7 years) so it is pretty smooth. If I drove a Tesla, I think the in car nav might've done all of that app work in a singe app on-screen. I dunno. In practice, the 6 apps were familiar and I didn't need that integration. So went my experience with the 'hellscape' that is currently 'non-existent' non-Tesla DCFCs, in an EV that has 'horrible' and 'the worst' DCFC speed (according to EV drivers).
This is why non-Tesla EVs are not ready for prime time. I can easily drive 400 miles in any direction with my Camry without doing any planning with respect to refueling. I won't need to refuel but if I want to there won't be a single app involved. And it will be quick.

When we drove 277 miles from Los Angeles to Las Vegas my wife planned out where we would stop to recharge the Leaf S. We had six spots picked out - three in one location and three in another. As I wrote previously ...First stop at a Walmart - chargers in the parking lot. No CHAdeMO chargers. On to a mall where there were charges. Drove around for a while and finally found them. There were four chargers - three in use and one broken. We waited for a BMW to finish charging. Plugged in and went to walk the mall. Walked around - came back and the car wasn't charged up enough. Walked again. Then drove on. Stopped in Baker. Found chargers behind the World's Tallest Thermometer. The first two we tried were out of order. The third worked. Went inside and killed a bunch of time waiting. Not a positive experience.

It is pretty much a certainty that the Leaf will never again leave the Las Vegas Valley. It is in my opinion worthless for anything other than commuting. And for that it isn't very good.
Why isn't it good for commuting? Something other than having to charge it multiple times per week, or just that?
smitcat
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by smitcat »

02nz wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:15 am
aquaman wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:57 am and even at current elevated gas prices, the "on the go" fast charging prices won't save you any money either.
It depends on the location, but often even DC fast charging is significantly cheaper than gas. Gasoline averages $5.53/gallon in CA right now, and typically DCFC stations in CA charge around 40 cents/KWHr. Assuming an EV gets 3 miles/KWHr, that means you need to average about 43 MPG or higher in a gas car to come out cheaper. And generally where gas is cheaper, so is DCFC (e.g., I randomly looked up an EVgo in Dallas, TX and found the DCFC costs 27 cents/KWHr; another in FL is 31 cents).

Obviously nobody gets an EV primarily to save money on road trips, the real cost savings come from home charging.
"I randomly looked up an EVgo in Dallas, TX and found the DCFC costs 27 cents/KWHr; another in FL is 31 cents)."
The chargers we looked at so far are higher than that and only less if you join their 'network'. You would likely need to join multiple networks to have flexibility or pay the higher prices. Gas was just under $3.50 here yesterday when we filled up.
Last edited by smitcat on Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
onourway
Posts: 3391
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by onourway »

7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:50 am
This is why non-Tesla EVs are not ready for prime time. I can easily drive 400 miles in any direction with my Camry without doing any planning with respect to refueling. I won't need to refuel but if I want to there won't be a single app involved. And it will be quick.

When we drove 277 miles from Los Angeles to Las Vegas my wife planned out where we would stop to recharge the Leaf S. We had six spots picked out - three in one location and three in another. As I wrote previously ...First stop at a Walmart - chargers in the parking lot. No CHAdeMO chargers. On to a mall where there were charges. Drove around for a while and finally found them. There were four chargers - three in use and one broken. We waited for a BMW to finish charging. Plugged in and went to walk the mall. Walked around - came back and the car wasn't charged up enough. Walked again. Then drove on. Stopped in Baker. Found chargers behind the World's Tallest Thermometer. The first two we tried were out of order. The third worked. Went inside and killed a bunch of time waiting. Not a positive experience.

It is pretty much a certainty that the Leaf will never again leave the Las Vegas Valley. It is in my opinion worthless for anything other than commuting. And for that it isn't very good.
If you have a Camry why do you also need the Leaf to be anything but a commuter? If you need it to be, why did you buy an EV with only 150 miles of range and an uncommon charging standard?

For commuting the Leaf should be perfectly fine, within the constraints of its price point. I'm curious to hear your issues.
7eight9
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 7eight9 »

onourway wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:07 am
7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:50 am
This is why non-Tesla EVs are not ready for prime time. I can easily drive 400 miles in any direction with my Camry without doing any planning with respect to refueling. I won't need to refuel but if I want to there won't be a single app involved. And it will be quick.

When we drove 277 miles from Los Angeles to Las Vegas my wife planned out where we would stop to recharge the Leaf S. We had six spots picked out - three in one location and three in another. As I wrote previously ...First stop at a Walmart - chargers in the parking lot. No CHAdeMO chargers. On to a mall where there were charges. Drove around for a while and finally found them. There were four chargers - three in use and one broken. We waited for a BMW to finish charging. Plugged in and went to walk the mall. Walked around - came back and the car wasn't charged up enough. Walked again. Then drove on. Stopped in Baker. Found chargers behind the World's Tallest Thermometer. The first two we tried were out of order. The third worked. Went inside and killed a bunch of time waiting. Not a positive experience.

It is pretty much a certainty that the Leaf will never again leave the Las Vegas Valley. It is in my opinion worthless for anything other than commuting. And for that it isn't very good.
If you have a Camry why do you also need the Leaf to be anything but a commuter? If you need it to be, why did you buy an EV with only 150 miles of range and an uncommon charging standard?

For commuting the Leaf should be perfectly fine, within the constraints of its price point. I'm curious to hear your issues.
The Leaf has a 150 mile range. With a 40+ mile round trip commute (and no opportunity to charge at work) it needs to be charged at a minimum every three days (and that is leaving very little in the "tank"). Realistically, charging every other day.

The Leaf replaced a totaled Prius C that had a 450 mile range. It was fueled much less frequently. Frankly the constant charging is a pain. The Leaf was a rushed purchase that wasn't thought out well.

Additionally, in my personal opinion, the Prius C was more comfortable to drive.
I guess it all could be much worse. | They could be warming up my hearse.
7eight9
Posts: 2235
Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 7eight9 »

cmr79 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:58 am
7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:50 am
just frank wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:06 am Summary: My trip here required 6 apps and 6 total minutes of my attention !! Oh, my aching index finger. There was no stress and no drama and no range anxiety. The car never went below 50 miles range. I have been doing this EV car trip thing for awhile (7 years) so it is pretty smooth. If I drove a Tesla, I think the in car nav might've done all of that app work in a singe app on-screen. I dunno. In practice, the 6 apps were familiar and I didn't need that integration. So went my experience with the 'hellscape' that is currently 'non-existent' non-Tesla DCFCs, in an EV that has 'horrible' and 'the worst' DCFC speed (according to EV drivers).
This is why non-Tesla EVs are not ready for prime time. I can easily drive 400 miles in any direction with my Camry without doing any planning with respect to refueling. I won't need to refuel but if I want to there won't be a single app involved. And it will be quick.

When we drove 277 miles from Los Angeles to Las Vegas my wife planned out where we would stop to recharge the Leaf S. We had six spots picked out - three in one location and three in another. As I wrote previously ...First stop at a Walmart - chargers in the parking lot. No CHAdeMO chargers. On to a mall where there were charges. Drove around for a while and finally found them. There were four chargers - three in use and one broken. We waited for a BMW to finish charging. Plugged in and went to walk the mall. Walked around - came back and the car wasn't charged up enough. Walked again. Then drove on. Stopped in Baker. Found chargers behind the World's Tallest Thermometer. The first two we tried were out of order. The third worked. Went inside and killed a bunch of time waiting. Not a positive experience.

It is pretty much a certainty that the Leaf will never again leave the Las Vegas Valley. It is in my opinion worthless for anything other than commuting. And for that it isn't very good.
Why isn't it good for commuting? Something other than having to charge it multiple times per week, or just that?
Exactly. It has to be constantly charged. The Prius C didn't have to be refueled anywhere near as often.

In my opinion the Prius C was a more comfortable car to drive but that is obviously not the fault of the Leaf just a matter of personal preference.
I guess it all could be much worse. | They could be warming up my hearse.
g2morrow
Posts: 139
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:23 am

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by g2morrow »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 9:49 am In short......do the math. I did the math. I've decided that for the moment, I have no need for an EV and will simply keep all of my cars.
nailed it :sharebeer
cmr79
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:25 pm

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by cmr79 »

7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:55 am
onourway wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:07 am
7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:50 am
This is why non-Tesla EVs are not ready for prime time. I can easily drive 400 miles in any direction with my Camry without doing any planning with respect to refueling. I won't need to refuel but if I want to there won't be a single app involved. And it will be quick.

When we drove 277 miles from Los Angeles to Las Vegas my wife planned out where we would stop to recharge the Leaf S. We had six spots picked out - three in one location and three in another. As I wrote previously ...First stop at a Walmart - chargers in the parking lot. No CHAdeMO chargers. On to a mall where there were charges. Drove around for a while and finally found them. There were four chargers - three in use and one broken. We waited for a BMW to finish charging. Plugged in and went to walk the mall. Walked around - came back and the car wasn't charged up enough. Walked again. Then drove on. Stopped in Baker. Found chargers behind the World's Tallest Thermometer. The first two we tried were out of order. The third worked. Went inside and killed a bunch of time waiting. Not a positive experience.

It is pretty much a certainty that the Leaf will never again leave the Las Vegas Valley. It is in my opinion worthless for anything other than commuting. And for that it isn't very good.
If you have a Camry why do you also need the Leaf to be anything but a commuter? If you need it to be, why did you buy an EV with only 150 miles of range and an uncommon charging standard?

For commuting the Leaf should be perfectly fine, within the constraints of its price point. I'm curious to hear your issues.
The Leaf has a 150 mile range. With a 40+ mile round trip commute (and no opportunity to charge at work) it needs to be charged at a minimum every three days (and that is leaving very little in the "tank"). Realistically, charging every other day.

The Leaf replaced a totaled Prius C that had a 450 mile range. It was fueled much less frequently. Frankly the constant charging is a pain. The Leaf was a rushed purchase that wasn't thought out well.

Additionally, in my personal opinion, the Prius C was more comfortable to drive.
Seems like, as you have said, this is just the wrong car for you. For anyone looking for a daily commuter who wants to Level 1 charge daily rather than invest in a Level 2 charger, though, this could be an ideal option.
02nz
Posts: 8474
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:17 pm

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 02nz »

7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:50 am It is in my opinion worthless for anything other than commuting. And for that it isn't very good.
Can you please specify why the LEAF (to be frank by far the crappiest of the current EVs on the US market) "isn't very good" for commuting, compared to another vehicle that costs $20K after the federal tax credit?
02nz
Posts: 8474
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:17 pm

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 02nz »

7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:57 am
cmr79 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:58 am
7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:50 am
just frank wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:06 am Summary: My trip here required 6 apps and 6 total minutes of my attention !! Oh, my aching index finger. There was no stress and no drama and no range anxiety. The car never went below 50 miles range. I have been doing this EV car trip thing for awhile (7 years) so it is pretty smooth. If I drove a Tesla, I think the in car nav might've done all of that app work in a singe app on-screen. I dunno. In practice, the 6 apps were familiar and I didn't need that integration. So went my experience with the 'hellscape' that is currently 'non-existent' non-Tesla DCFCs, in an EV that has 'horrible' and 'the worst' DCFC speed (according to EV drivers).
This is why non-Tesla EVs are not ready for prime time. I can easily drive 400 miles in any direction with my Camry without doing any planning with respect to refueling. I won't need to refuel but if I want to there won't be a single app involved. And it will be quick.

When we drove 277 miles from Los Angeles to Las Vegas my wife planned out where we would stop to recharge the Leaf S. We had six spots picked out - three in one location and three in another. As I wrote previously ...First stop at a Walmart - chargers in the parking lot. No CHAdeMO chargers. On to a mall where there were charges. Drove around for a while and finally found them. There were four chargers - three in use and one broken. We waited for a BMW to finish charging. Plugged in and went to walk the mall. Walked around - came back and the car wasn't charged up enough. Walked again. Then drove on. Stopped in Baker. Found chargers behind the World's Tallest Thermometer. The first two we tried were out of order. The third worked. Went inside and killed a bunch of time waiting. Not a positive experience.

It is pretty much a certainty that the Leaf will never again leave the Las Vegas Valley. It is in my opinion worthless for anything other than commuting. And for that it isn't very good.
Why isn't it good for commuting? Something other than having to charge it multiple times per week, or just that?
Exactly. It has to be constantly charged. The Prius C didn't have to be refueled anywhere near as often.

In my opinion the Prius C was a more comfortable car to drive but that is obviously not the fault of the Leaf just a matter of personal preference.
What about the act of plugging in the charging cord is proving challenging? It takes me at most an extra 10 seconds, another 10 seconds unplugging.
Last edited by 02nz on Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
7eight9
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 7eight9 »

02nz wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:13 am
7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:50 am It is in my opinion worthless for anything other than commuting. And for that it isn't very good.
Can you please specify why the LEAF (to be frank by far the crappiest of the current EVs on the US market) "isn't very good" for commuting, compared to another vehicle that costs $20K after the federal tax credit?
The Leaf has a 150 mile range. With a 40+ mile round trip commute (and no opportunity to charge at work) it needs to be charged at an absolute minimum every three days (and that is leaving very little in the "tank"). Realistically, charging every other day.

The Leaf replaced a totaled Prius C that had a 450 mile range. It was fueled much less frequently. Frankly the constant charging is a pain and I'm already sick of it. The Leaf was a rushed purchase that wasn't thought out well.

Additionally, in my personal opinion, the Prius C was more comfortable to drive.
I guess it all could be much worse. | They could be warming up my hearse.
02nz
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 02nz »

7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:16 am
02nz wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:13 am
7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:50 am It is in my opinion worthless for anything other than commuting. And for that it isn't very good.
Can you please specify why the LEAF (to be frank by far the crappiest of the current EVs on the US market) "isn't very good" for commuting, compared to another vehicle that costs $20K after the federal tax credit?
The Leaf has a 150 mile range. With a 40+ mile round trip commute (and no opportunity to charge at work) it needs to be charged at an absolute minimum every three days (and that is leaving very little in the "tank"). Realistically, charging every other day.

The Leaf replaced a totaled Prius C that had a 450 mile range. It was fueled much less frequently. Frankly the constant charging is a pain and I'm already sick of it. The Leaf was a rushed purchase that wasn't thought out well.

Additionally, in my personal opinion, the Prius C was more comfortable to drive.
The LEAF takes way less time to plug/unplug at home 5 times than the Prius C did to take to a gas station to refuel even once, but it seems you're set on one narrative. As for "being more comfortable to drive," well they're both **** economy cars. Whatever.
7eight9
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 7eight9 »

02nz wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:16 am
7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:57 am
cmr79 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:58 am
7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:50 am
just frank wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:06 am Summary: My trip here required 6 apps and 6 total minutes of my attention !! Oh, my aching index finger. There was no stress and no drama and no range anxiety. The car never went below 50 miles range. I have been doing this EV car trip thing for awhile (7 years) so it is pretty smooth. If I drove a Tesla, I think the in car nav might've done all of that app work in a singe app on-screen. I dunno. In practice, the 6 apps were familiar and I didn't need that integration. So went my experience with the 'hellscape' that is currently 'non-existent' non-Tesla DCFCs, in an EV that has 'horrible' and 'the worst' DCFC speed (according to EV drivers).
This is why non-Tesla EVs are not ready for prime time. I can easily drive 400 miles in any direction with my Camry without doing any planning with respect to refueling. I won't need to refuel but if I want to there won't be a single app involved. And it will be quick.

When we drove 277 miles from Los Angeles to Las Vegas my wife planned out where we would stop to recharge the Leaf S. We had six spots picked out - three in one location and three in another. As I wrote previously ...First stop at a Walmart - chargers in the parking lot. No CHAdeMO chargers. On to a mall where there were charges. Drove around for a while and finally found them. There were four chargers - three in use and one broken. We waited for a BMW to finish charging. Plugged in and went to walk the mall. Walked around - came back and the car wasn't charged up enough. Walked again. Then drove on. Stopped in Baker. Found chargers behind the World's Tallest Thermometer. The first two we tried were out of order. The third worked. Went inside and killed a bunch of time waiting. Not a positive experience.

It is pretty much a certainty that the Leaf will never again leave the Las Vegas Valley. It is in my opinion worthless for anything other than commuting. And for that it isn't very good.
Why isn't it good for commuting? Something other than having to charge it multiple times per week, or just that?
Exactly. It has to be constantly charged. The Prius C didn't have to be refueled anywhere near as often.

In my opinion the Prius C was a more comfortable car to drive but that is obviously not the fault of the Leaf just a matter of personal preference.
What about the act of plugging in the charging cord is proving challenging? It takes me at most an extra 10 seconds, another 10 seconds unplugging.
Maybe it takes 10 seconds for you. In my case the only plug in my garage in behind a cabinet. We had to cut a hole in the back of the cabinet to gain access to it (cabinet is too heavy to move). So when I want to charge I have to open the cabinet, plug in the charger, uncoil the cord without
pulling the charger out of the wall and plug the car in. Reverse the process when unplugging.
I guess it all could be much worse. | They could be warming up my hearse.
02nz
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 02nz »

7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:20 am
02nz wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:16 am
7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:57 am
cmr79 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:58 am
7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:50 am

This is why non-Tesla EVs are not ready for prime time. I can easily drive 400 miles in any direction with my Camry without doing any planning with respect to refueling. I won't need to refuel but if I want to there won't be a single app involved. And it will be quick.

When we drove 277 miles from Los Angeles to Las Vegas my wife planned out where we would stop to recharge the Leaf S. We had six spots picked out - three in one location and three in another. As I wrote previously ...First stop at a Walmart - chargers in the parking lot. No CHAdeMO chargers. On to a mall where there were charges. Drove around for a while and finally found them. There were four chargers - three in use and one broken. We waited for a BMW to finish charging. Plugged in and went to walk the mall. Walked around - came back and the car wasn't charged up enough. Walked again. Then drove on. Stopped in Baker. Found chargers behind the World's Tallest Thermometer. The first two we tried were out of order. The third worked. Went inside and killed a bunch of time waiting. Not a positive experience.

It is pretty much a certainty that the Leaf will never again leave the Las Vegas Valley. It is in my opinion worthless for anything other than commuting. And for that it isn't very good.
Why isn't it good for commuting? Something other than having to charge it multiple times per week, or just that?
Exactly. It has to be constantly charged. The Prius C didn't have to be refueled anywhere near as often.

In my opinion the Prius C was a more comfortable car to drive but that is obviously not the fault of the Leaf just a matter of personal preference.
What about the act of plugging in the charging cord is proving challenging? It takes me at most an extra 10 seconds, another 10 seconds unplugging.
Maybe it takes 10 seconds for you. In my case the only plug in my garage in behind a cabinet. We had to cut a hole in the back of the cabinet to gain access to it (cabinet is too heavy to move). So when I want to charge I have to open the cabinet, plug in the charger, uncoil the cord without
pulling the charger out of the wall and plug the car in. Reverse the process when unplugging.
Sounds very grueling indeed, my sympathies. Had you chosen the higher-capacity version of the LEAF or the Bolt, either of which is cost-competitive (after tax incentive in the case of the LEAF) with the Corolla Hybrid, you would have to perform this arduous task all of once a week.
7eight9
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 7eight9 »

02nz wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:23 am
7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:20 am
02nz wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:16 am
7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:57 am
cmr79 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:58 am

Why isn't it good for commuting? Something other than having to charge it multiple times per week, or just that?
Exactly. It has to be constantly charged. The Prius C didn't have to be refueled anywhere near as often.

In my opinion the Prius C was a more comfortable car to drive but that is obviously not the fault of the Leaf just a matter of personal preference.
What about the act of plugging in the charging cord is proving challenging? It takes me at most an extra 10 seconds, another 10 seconds unplugging.
Maybe it takes 10 seconds for you. In my case the only plug in my garage in behind a cabinet. We had to cut a hole in the back of the cabinet to gain access to it (cabinet is too heavy to move). So when I want to charge I have to open the cabinet, plug in the charger, uncoil the cord without
pulling the charger out of the wall and plug the car in. Reverse the process when unplugging.
Sounds very grueling indeed, my sympathies. Had you chosen the higher-capacity version of the LEAF or the Bolt, either of which is cost-competitive (after tax incentive in the case of the LEAF) with the Corolla Hybrid, you would have to perform this arduous task all of once a week.
And if I had bought the Corolla Hybrid I wouldn't have to deal with this nonsense at all. Additionally, I would have a car the is capable of doing more than merely commuting. I made a mistake buying a Nissan Leaf S and I regret it. We should have waited for a Corolla Hybrid.
I guess it all could be much worse. | They could be warming up my hearse.
psteinx
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by psteinx »

7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:33 am And if I had bought the Corolla Hybrid I wouldn't have to deal with this nonsense at all. Additionally, I would have a car the is capable of doing more than merely commuting. I made a mistake buying a Nissan Leaf S and I regret it. We should have waited for a Corolla Hybrid.
Consider pricing out what you could get for the Leaf as a trade-in or via web-based car dealers like Carvana. You might be surprised. The current environment is weird.

Be aware of the possibility of losing EV-type incentives and/or clawbacks on those you've already received on the Leaf.
CletusCaddy
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by CletusCaddy »

7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:33 am
02nz wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:23 am
7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:20 am
02nz wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:16 am
7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:57 am

Exactly. It has to be constantly charged. The Prius C didn't have to be refueled anywhere near as often.

In my opinion the Prius C was a more comfortable car to drive but that is obviously not the fault of the Leaf just a matter of personal preference.
What about the act of plugging in the charging cord is proving challenging? It takes me at most an extra 10 seconds, another 10 seconds unplugging.
Maybe it takes 10 seconds for you. In my case the only plug in my garage in behind a cabinet. We had to cut a hole in the back of the cabinet to gain access to it (cabinet is too heavy to move). So when I want to charge I have to open the cabinet, plug in the charger, uncoil the cord without
pulling the charger out of the wall and plug the car in. Reverse the process when unplugging.
Sounds very grueling indeed, my sympathies. Had you chosen the higher-capacity version of the LEAF or the Bolt, either of which is cost-competitive (after tax incentive in the case of the LEAF) with the Corolla Hybrid, you would have to perform this arduous task all of once a week.
And if I had bought the Corolla Hybrid I wouldn't have to deal with this nonsense at all. Additionally, I would have a car the is capable of doing more than merely commuting. I made a mistake buying a Nissan Leaf S and I regret it. We should have waited for a Corolla Hybrid.
If you were in the Bay Area I would totally buy the Leaf off you. I sold mine during the early pandemic and I regret it so much.
onourway
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by onourway »

7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:20 am
02nz wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:16 am
7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:57 am
cmr79 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:58 am
7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:50 am

This is why non-Tesla EVs are not ready for prime time. I can easily drive 400 miles in any direction with my Camry without doing any planning with respect to refueling. I won't need to refuel but if I want to there won't be a single app involved. And it will be quick.

When we drove 277 miles from Los Angeles to Las Vegas my wife planned out where we would stop to recharge the Leaf S. We had six spots picked out - three in one location and three in another. As I wrote previously ...First stop at a Walmart - chargers in the parking lot. No CHAdeMO chargers. On to a mall where there were charges. Drove around for a while and finally found them. There were four chargers - three in use and one broken. We waited for a BMW to finish charging. Plugged in and went to walk the mall. Walked around - came back and the car wasn't charged up enough. Walked again. Then drove on. Stopped in Baker. Found chargers behind the World's Tallest Thermometer. The first two we tried were out of order. The third worked. Went inside and killed a bunch of time waiting. Not a positive experience.

It is pretty much a certainty that the Leaf will never again leave the Las Vegas Valley. It is in my opinion worthless for anything other than commuting. And for that it isn't very good.
Why isn't it good for commuting? Something other than having to charge it multiple times per week, or just that?
Exactly. It has to be constantly charged. The Prius C didn't have to be refueled anywhere near as often.

In my opinion the Prius C was a more comfortable car to drive but that is obviously not the fault of the Leaf just a matter of personal preference.
What about the act of plugging in the charging cord is proving challenging? It takes me at most an extra 10 seconds, another 10 seconds unplugging.
Maybe it takes 10 seconds for you. In my case the only plug in my garage in behind a cabinet. We had to cut a hole in the back of the cabinet to gain access to it (cabinet is too heavy to move). So when I want to charge I have to open the cabinet, plug in the charger, uncoil the cord without
pulling the charger out of the wall and plug the car in. Reverse the process when unplugging.
LOL. We have a plug-in hybrid that we plug in to our L2 station 3-6 times per day. It takes all of 5 seconds each time, (I actually counted…)

I’d suggest investing in a permanently connected charging station that is convenient to where you park. However even what you describe hardly sounds onerous every few days. :confused
02nz
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 02nz »

7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:33 am
02nz wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:23 am
7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:20 am
02nz wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:16 am
7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:57 am

Exactly. It has to be constantly charged. The Prius C didn't have to be refueled anywhere near as often.

In my opinion the Prius C was a more comfortable car to drive but that is obviously not the fault of the Leaf just a matter of personal preference.
What about the act of plugging in the charging cord is proving challenging? It takes me at most an extra 10 seconds, another 10 seconds unplugging.
Maybe it takes 10 seconds for you. In my case the only plug in my garage in behind a cabinet. We had to cut a hole in the back of the cabinet to gain access to it (cabinet is too heavy to move). So when I want to charge I have to open the cabinet, plug in the charger, uncoil the cord without
pulling the charger out of the wall and plug the car in. Reverse the process when unplugging.
Sounds very grueling indeed, my sympathies. Had you chosen the higher-capacity version of the LEAF or the Bolt, either of which is cost-competitive (after tax incentive in the case of the LEAF) with the Corolla Hybrid, you would have to perform this arduous task all of once a week.
And if I had bought the Corolla Hybrid I wouldn't have to deal with this nonsense at all. Additionally, I would have a car the is capable of doing more than merely commuting. I made a mistake buying a Nissan Leaf S and I regret it. We should have waited for a Corolla Hybrid.
You said in an earlier post you're in Las Vegas. Gasoline there costs an average of $4.99/gallon right now, electricity $0.14/KWHr.

At 3 miles per KWhr and 12k miles/year, your LEAF costs $560 per year in energy, while the Corolla Hybrid costs more than double ($1150/year) at the EPA estimate of 52 MPG.

Almost anywhere on Bogleheads this would be hailed as the greatest bargain of all time, but in this thread, it's "oh no, I have to open the cabinet every other day! And close it too!"
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vineviz
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by vineviz »

02nz wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:13 pm Almost anywhere on Bogleheads this would be hailed as the greatest bargain of all time, but in this thread, it's "oh no, I have to open the cabinet every other day! And close it too!"
In some places when someone explains why they don't like a thing that they own and use, strangers don't spend thousands of words trying to convince them that they ACTUALLY DO LIKE IT.

The interwebs are a strange place in that regard.
"Far more money has been lost by investors preparing for corrections than has been lost in corrections themselves." ~~ Peter Lynch
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AerialWombat
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by AerialWombat »

I read the entire thread, and it was fascinating to see the range (no pun intended) of BH takes on the EV world.

I’ve done the math for my own use case, and determined that it makes zero financial sense for me to dispose of my paid-for ICE car, even at $6 a gallon for dino juice. This includes the fact that I take multiple 3k-5k mile road trips per year, around large swaths of the western U.S. The breakeven time period for me is around 20 years, even when I consider the affordable Chevy Bolt.

Whenever my ICE falls apart (or, more likely, when the CVT eats itself), I just assume that my next car will be at least a PHEV, if not a full BEV. I’m hoping that’s at least five years away, at which point there will hopefully be Toyota RAV4 Primes and Subaru Solterras for sale on the used market. I have never purchased a new car in my life, and never will.

All that said, I did buy a brand new electric motorcycle this week. I’ve been wanting to buy a new bike for a while, and electric just seemed like it might be a fun way to go. It will not only be used for joy rides up forest service roads, but also be my “daily driver” to the convenience store and my volunteer gig. So far, I’m enjoying it. The purchase price was financially unjustifiable, but that’s the case for any toy.

For what little it’s worth, the round trip fuel cost to my volunteer gig will go from about $4 to about 20 cents.
This post is a work of fiction. Any similarity to real financial advice is purely coincidental.
7eight9
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 7eight9 »

02nz wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:13 pm
7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:33 am
02nz wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:23 am
7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:20 am
02nz wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:16 am

What about the act of plugging in the charging cord is proving challenging? It takes me at most an extra 10 seconds, another 10 seconds unplugging.
Maybe it takes 10 seconds for you. In my case the only plug in my garage in behind a cabinet. We had to cut a hole in the back of the cabinet to gain access to it (cabinet is too heavy to move). So when I want to charge I have to open the cabinet, plug in the charger, uncoil the cord without
pulling the charger out of the wall and plug the car in. Reverse the process when unplugging.
Sounds very grueling indeed, my sympathies. Had you chosen the higher-capacity version of the LEAF or the Bolt, either of which is cost-competitive (after tax incentive in the case of the LEAF) with the Corolla Hybrid, you would have to perform this arduous task all of once a week.
And if I had bought the Corolla Hybrid I wouldn't have to deal with this nonsense at all. Additionally, I would have a car the is capable of doing more than merely commuting. I made a mistake buying a Nissan Leaf S and I regret it. We should have waited for a Corolla Hybrid.
You said in an earlier post you're in Las Vegas. Gasoline there costs an average of $4.99/gallon right now, electricity $0.14/KWHr.

At 3 miles per KWhr and 12k miles/year, your LEAF costs $560 per year in energy, while the Corolla Hybrid costs more than double ($1150/year) at the EPA estimate of 52 MPG.

Almost anywhere on Bogleheads this would be hailed as the greatest bargain of all time, but in this thread, it's "oh no, I have to open the cabinet every other day! And close it too!"
$4.69 this morning at the station I frequent but you are certainly in the ballpark.

Mock me all you want but I'm not pleased with my purchase. It was a rushed decision that I regret.
I guess it all could be much worse. | They could be warming up my hearse.
stoptothink
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by stoptothink »

02nz wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:13 pm
7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:33 am
02nz wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:23 am
7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:20 am
02nz wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:16 am

What about the act of plugging in the charging cord is proving challenging? It takes me at most an extra 10 seconds, another 10 seconds unplugging.
Maybe it takes 10 seconds for you. In my case the only plug in my garage in behind a cabinet. We had to cut a hole in the back of the cabinet to gain access to it (cabinet is too heavy to move). So when I want to charge I have to open the cabinet, plug in the charger, uncoil the cord without
pulling the charger out of the wall and plug the car in. Reverse the process when unplugging.
Sounds very grueling indeed, my sympathies. Had you chosen the higher-capacity version of the LEAF or the Bolt, either of which is cost-competitive (after tax incentive in the case of the LEAF) with the Corolla Hybrid, you would have to perform this arduous task all of once a week.
And if I had bought the Corolla Hybrid I wouldn't have to deal with this nonsense at all. Additionally, I would have a car the is capable of doing more than merely commuting. I made a mistake buying a Nissan Leaf S and I regret it. We should have waited for a Corolla Hybrid.
You said in an earlier post you're in Las Vegas. Gasoline there costs an average of $4.99/gallon right now, electricity $0.14/KWHr.

At 3 miles per KWhr and 12k miles/year, your LEAF costs $560 per year in energy, while the Corolla Hybrid costs more than double ($1150/year) at the EPA estimate of 52 MPG.

Almost anywhere on Bogleheads this would be hailed as the greatest bargain of all time, but in this thread, it's "oh no, I have to open the cabinet every other day! And close it too!"
7eight9 likely will have moved onto another vehicle before that $600yr makes up for the difference in upfront cost, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Not to mention, sounds like they would simply prefer to drive the Corolla. It's like you refuse to admit than an EV isn't ideal for everybody's situation.
psteinx
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by psteinx »

stoptothink wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:25 pm
02nz wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:13 pm You said in an earlier post you're in Las Vegas. Gasoline there costs an average of $4.99/gallon right now, electricity $0.14/KWHr.

At 3 miles per KWhr and 12k miles/year, your LEAF costs $560 per year in energy, while the Corolla Hybrid costs more than double ($1150/year) at the EPA estimate of 52 MPG.

Almost anywhere on Bogleheads this would be hailed as the greatest bargain of all time, but in this thread, it's "oh no, I have to open the cabinet every other day! And close it too!"
7eight9 likely will have moved onto another vehicle before that $600yr makes up for the difference in upfront cost, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Not to mention, sounds like they would simply prefer to drive the Corolla. It's like you refuse to admit than an EV isn't ideal for everybody's situation.
A standard refrain, especially on the consumer threads, is to lament that everyone on BH is a cheapskate, and will only endorse others' purchases of a 10-year-old Corolla.

I think this is quite exaggerated. Within normal variances, folks here tolerate, if not encourage, a range of spending, including on cars.

But are we to enter a new era where a signficant portion of the commentariat will only endorse Leafs and the like as commuter cars, even when the poster in question clearly does not like/want them?
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AerialWombat
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by AerialWombat »

7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:22 pm
Mock me all you want but I'm not pleased with my purchase. It was a rushed decision that I regret.
Right now is still a good time to sell a car. You’d probably get a pretty penny for that Leaf S from an EV enthusiast. Just a guess on my part.
This post is a work of fiction. Any similarity to real financial advice is purely coincidental.
stoptothink
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by stoptothink »

AerialWombat wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:21 pmAll that said, I did buy a brand new electric motorcycle this week. I’ve been wanting to buy a new bike for a while, and electric just seemed like it might be a fun way to go. It will not only be used for joy rides up forest service roads, but also be my “daily driver” to the convenience store and my volunteer gig. So far, I’m enjoying it. The purchase price was financially unjustifiable, but that’s the case for any toy.

For what little it’s worth, the round trip fuel cost to my volunteer gig will go from about $4 to about 20 cents.
The electric bikes we bought this year are our primary mode of transportation when it is relatively short (maybe 30 miles round trip) and we don't need to take the kids. We're both riding ~60 miles just to the gym and back each week. Plus, most of our charging is at our community center, gym, my office, etc. Purchase price will likely never make financial sense, but a little easier to swallow with $5 gas. Plus, they're more fun than any car.
02nz
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 02nz »

stoptothink wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:25 pm
02nz wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:13 pm
7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:33 am
02nz wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:23 am
7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:20 am

Maybe it takes 10 seconds for you. In my case the only plug in my garage in behind a cabinet. We had to cut a hole in the back of the cabinet to gain access to it (cabinet is too heavy to move). So when I want to charge I have to open the cabinet, plug in the charger, uncoil the cord without
pulling the charger out of the wall and plug the car in. Reverse the process when unplugging.
Sounds very grueling indeed, my sympathies. Had you chosen the higher-capacity version of the LEAF or the Bolt, either of which is cost-competitive (after tax incentive in the case of the LEAF) with the Corolla Hybrid, you would have to perform this arduous task all of once a week.
And if I had bought the Corolla Hybrid I wouldn't have to deal with this nonsense at all. Additionally, I would have a car the is capable of doing more than merely commuting. I made a mistake buying a Nissan Leaf S and I regret it. We should have waited for a Corolla Hybrid.
You said in an earlier post you're in Las Vegas. Gasoline there costs an average of $4.99/gallon right now, electricity $0.14/KWHr.

At 3 miles per KWhr and 12k miles/year, your LEAF costs $560 per year in energy, while the Corolla Hybrid costs more than double ($1150/year) at the EPA estimate of 52 MPG.

Almost anywhere on Bogleheads this would be hailed as the greatest bargain of all time, but in this thread, it's "oh no, I have to open the cabinet every other day! And close it too!"
7eight9 likely will have moved onto another vehicle before that $600yr makes up for the difference in upfront cost, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Not to mention, sounds like they would simply prefer to drive the Corolla. It's like you refuse to admit than an EV isn't ideal for everybody's situation.
The LEAF S costs about $21K after the federal tax credit. The Corolla Hybrid that 7eight9 wishes they'd bought instead costs $25K.

Oh, and I've stated repeatedly in this thread an EV isn't right for everyone. I suppose that includes those who have a hard time opening a cabinet 2-3 times a week ...
aquaman
Posts: 308
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by aquaman »

02nz wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:13 pm
7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:33 am
02nz wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:23 am
7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:20 am
02nz wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:16 am

What about the act of plugging in the charging cord is proving challenging? It takes me at most an extra 10 seconds, another 10 seconds unplugging.
Maybe it takes 10 seconds for you. In my case the only plug in my garage in behind a cabinet. We had to cut a hole in the back of the cabinet to gain access to it (cabinet is too heavy to move). So when I want to charge I have to open the cabinet, plug in the charger, uncoil the cord without
pulling the charger out of the wall and plug the car in. Reverse the process when unplugging.
Sounds very grueling indeed, my sympathies. Had you chosen the higher-capacity version of the LEAF or the Bolt, either of which is cost-competitive (after tax incentive in the case of the LEAF) with the Corolla Hybrid, you would have to perform this arduous task all of once a week.
And if I had bought the Corolla Hybrid I wouldn't have to deal with this nonsense at all. Additionally, I would have a car the is capable of doing more than merely commuting. I made a mistake buying a Nissan Leaf S and I regret it. We should have waited for a Corolla Hybrid.
You said in an earlier post you're in Las Vegas. Gasoline there costs an average of $4.99/gallon right now, electricity $0.14/KWHr.

At 3 miles per KWhr and 12k miles/year, your LEAF costs $560 per year in energy, while the Corolla Hybrid costs more than double ($1150/year) at the EPA estimate of 52 MPG.

Almost anywhere on Bogleheads this would be hailed as the greatest bargain of all time, but in this thread, it's "oh no, I have to open the cabinet every other day! And close it too!"
As several of us have pointed out upthread, without factoring in the difference in depreciation (this is the biggest variable; a very slight swing in it and your $600/year savings can actually end up being a net cost), insurance and cost of repairs, these calculations don't actually tell you much.

The main reason for my post is to ask whether when running all these financial calculations, people are actually running the numbers correctly, which is frequently a fairly complex process. Gas prices are simple, as all the taxes are already included, although you may have 5% or whatever credit card cashback (and the cashback won't affect the calculations all that much).

Electricity is frequently more complex, however, even with 100% home charging. For instance, in my own case, the kwh price shown by the utility isn't the all-in price. The final price includes various additional surcharges and taxes, so the all-in price ends up being 1/3 higher than the official kwh rate shown by the utility.

A lot of power companies also have seasonal rates, so you have to account for those. Likewise, with a number of power companies, switching to an electric vehicle rate may give you an amazing off-peak rate, but increase the peak rate. If so, switching to such a rate may or may not save you money, but even if it does, just quoting the low off-peak rate wouldn't be accurate, as you'd still be paying the higher peak rate, which would eat into the savings.
stoptothink
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by stoptothink »

02nz wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:02 pm
stoptothink wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:25 pm
02nz wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:13 pm
7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:33 am
02nz wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:23 am

Sounds very grueling indeed, my sympathies. Had you chosen the higher-capacity version of the LEAF or the Bolt, either of which is cost-competitive (after tax incentive in the case of the LEAF) with the Corolla Hybrid, you would have to perform this arduous task all of once a week.
And if I had bought the Corolla Hybrid I wouldn't have to deal with this nonsense at all. Additionally, I would have a car the is capable of doing more than merely commuting. I made a mistake buying a Nissan Leaf S and I regret it. We should have waited for a Corolla Hybrid.
You said in an earlier post you're in Las Vegas. Gasoline there costs an average of $4.99/gallon right now, electricity $0.14/KWHr.

At 3 miles per KWhr and 12k miles/year, your LEAF costs $560 per year in energy, while the Corolla Hybrid costs more than double ($1150/year) at the EPA estimate of 52 MPG.

Almost anywhere on Bogleheads this would be hailed as the greatest bargain of all time, but in this thread, it's "oh no, I have to open the cabinet every other day! And close it too!"
7eight9 likely will have moved onto another vehicle before that $600yr makes up for the difference in upfront cost, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Not to mention, sounds like they would simply prefer to drive the Corolla. It's like you refuse to admit than an EV isn't ideal for everybody's situation.
The LEAF S costs about $21K after the federal tax credit. The Corolla Hybrid that 7eight9 wishes they'd bought instead costs $25K.

Oh, and I've stated repeatedly in this thread an EV isn't right for everyone. I suppose that includes those who have a hard time opening a cabinet 2-3 times a week ...
I was not aware the Leaf still qualifies for the tax credit. My apologies. I stand by my statement; as someone who is a massive EV supporter and will be buying an EV as their next vehicle, you clearly have a bias on this topic.
gougou
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by gougou »

aquaman wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:13 pm ...

As several of us have pointed out upthread, without factoring in the difference in depreciation (this is the biggest variable; a very slight swing in it and your $600/year savings can actually end up being a net cost), insurance and cost of repairs, these calculations don't actually tell you much.

The main reason for my post is to ask whether when running all these financial calculations, people are actually running the numbers correctly, which is frequently a fairly complex process. Gas prices are simple, as all the taxes are already included, although you may have 5% or whatever credit card cashback (and the cashback won't affect the calculations all that much).

Electricity is frequently more complex, however, even with 100% home charging. For instance, in my own case, the kwh price shown by the utility isn't the all-in price. The final price includes various additional surcharges and taxes, so the all-in price ends up being 1/3 higher than the official kwh rate shown by the utility.

A lot of power companies also have seasonal rates, so you have to account for those. Likewise, with a number of power companies, switching to an electric vehicle rate may give you an amazing off-peak rate, but increase the peak rate. If so, switching to such a rate may or may not save you money, but even if it does, just quoting the low off-peak rate wouldn't be accurate, as you'd still be paying the higher peak rate, which would eat into the savings.
Charging loss is almost always ignored in these calculations. Only about 80% of electricity you put in the car is used to drive it:
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/0 ... -fotw.html

So if the electricity rate is $0.15/KWH and you lose 20% on charging, you are effectively paying $0.1875/KWH. That makes a big difference when calculating fuel costs.
02nz
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 02nz »

stoptothink wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:23 pm
02nz wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:02 pm
stoptothink wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:25 pm
02nz wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:13 pm
7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:33 am

And if I had bought the Corolla Hybrid I wouldn't have to deal with this nonsense at all. Additionally, I would have a car the is capable of doing more than merely commuting. I made a mistake buying a Nissan Leaf S and I regret it. We should have waited for a Corolla Hybrid.
You said in an earlier post you're in Las Vegas. Gasoline there costs an average of $4.99/gallon right now, electricity $0.14/KWHr.

At 3 miles per KWhr and 12k miles/year, your LEAF costs $560 per year in energy, while the Corolla Hybrid costs more than double ($1150/year) at the EPA estimate of 52 MPG.

Almost anywhere on Bogleheads this would be hailed as the greatest bargain of all time, but in this thread, it's "oh no, I have to open the cabinet every other day! And close it too!"
7eight9 likely will have moved onto another vehicle before that $600yr makes up for the difference in upfront cost, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Not to mention, sounds like they would simply prefer to drive the Corolla. It's like you refuse to admit than an EV isn't ideal for everybody's situation.
The LEAF S costs about $21K after the federal tax credit. The Corolla Hybrid that 7eight9 wishes they'd bought instead costs $25K.

Oh, and I've stated repeatedly in this thread an EV isn't right for everyone. I suppose that includes those who have a hard time opening a cabinet 2-3 times a week ...
I was not aware the Leaf still qualifies for the tax credit. My apologies. I stand by my statement; as someone who is a massive EV supporter and will be buying an EV as their next vehicle, you clearly have a bias on this topic.
I appreciate your acknowledgement that you got your facts wrong, but it seems a definition of chutzpah to, in the next sentence, accuse the other person of bias.
Last edited by 02nz on Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
neilpilot
Posts: 4298
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by neilpilot »

gougou wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:37 pm
aquaman wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:13 pm ...

As several of us have pointed out upthread, without factoring in the difference in depreciation (this is the biggest variable; a very slight swing in it and your $600/year savings can actually end up being a net cost), insurance and cost of repairs, these calculations don't actually tell you much.

The main reason for my post is to ask whether when running all these financial calculations, people are actually running the numbers correctly, which is frequently a fairly complex process. Gas prices are simple, as all the taxes are already included, although you may have 5% or whatever credit card cashback (and the cashback won't affect the calculations all that much).

Electricity is frequently more complex, however, even with 100% home charging. For instance, in my own case, the kwh price shown by the utility isn't the all-in price. The final price includes various additional surcharges and taxes, so the all-in price ends up being 1/3 higher than the official kwh rate shown by the utility.

A lot of power companies also have seasonal rates, so you have to account for those. Likewise, with a number of power companies, switching to an electric vehicle rate may give you an amazing off-peak rate, but increase the peak rate. If so, switching to such a rate may or may not save you money, but even if it does, just quoting the low off-peak rate wouldn't be accurate, as you'd still be paying the higher peak rate, which would eat into the savings.
Charging loss is almost always ignored in these calculations. Only about 80% of electricity you put in the car is used to drive it:
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/0 ... -fotw.html

So if the electricity rate is $0.15/KWH and you lose 20% on charging, you are effectively paying $0.1875/KWH. That makes a big difference when calculating fuel costs.
On the average, this could be correct. However, maybe efficiencies have improved since that 2018 article?

Based on user measurements for my particular EV model, MY2021, the typical loss when L2 charging is 6%-8%. The loss using an L1 charger is likely higher, and the loss using a L3 DC charger is probably a bit lower.
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squirrel1963
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by squirrel1963 »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:00 am I'll admit that getting gas is far more complicated than if I could plug in a garage charger. However, my garage is 75 feet from the house with a 220V 20A service, so I don't know if a level 2 would work. If I could limit the current, I suppose it could.
You can do this on a Tesla (a one time configuration) but the charge rate won't be great, assuming 90% efficiency and 75 kWh battery pack it will take almost 17 hours for a full charge. So for a daily commute you could probably count on 50% charge, so commute range would be 150 miles or so. The problem comes if you come home with near empty and you need it full the next day.
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squirrel1963
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by squirrel1963 »

neilpilot wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:01 pm
gougou wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:37 pm
aquaman wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:13 pm ...

As several of us have pointed out upthread, without factoring in the difference in depreciation (this is the biggest variable; a very slight swing in it and your $600/year savings can actually end up being a net cost), insurance and cost of repairs, these calculations don't actually tell you much.

The main reason for my post is to ask whether when running all these financial calculations, people are actually running the numbers correctly, which is frequently a fairly complex process. Gas prices are simple, as all the taxes are already included, although you may have 5% or whatever credit card cashback (and the cashback won't affect the calculations all that much).

Electricity is frequently more complex, however, even with 100% home charging. For instance, in my own case, the kwh price shown by the utility isn't the all-in price. The final price includes various additional surcharges and taxes, so the all-in price ends up being 1/3 higher than the official kwh rate shown by the utility.

A lot of power companies also have seasonal rates, so you have to account for those. Likewise, with a number of power companies, switching to an electric vehicle rate may give you an amazing off-peak rate, but increase the peak rate. If so, switching to such a rate may or may not save you money, but even if it does, just quoting the low off-peak rate wouldn't be accurate, as you'd still be paying the higher peak rate, which would eat into the savings.
Charging loss is almost always ignored in these calculations. Only about 80% of electricity you put in the car is used to drive it:
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/0 ... -fotw.html

So if the electricity rate is $0.15/KWH and you lose 20% on charging, you are effectively paying $0.1875/KWH. That makes a big difference when calculating fuel costs.
On the average, this could be correct. However, maybe efficiencies have improved since that 2018 article?

Based on user measurements for my particular EV model, MY2021, the typical loss when L2 charging is 6%-8%. The loss using an L1 charger is likely higher, and the loss using a L3 DC charger is probably a bit lower.
The number used for round trip efficiency is 80% (charging the battery + energy loss during discharge) so the charging portion of 10% is usually the ballpark number, although Tesla has better power electronics than most, so 6%-8% sounds accurate.
On fast DC charging (L3) efficiency should be much higher because the current is proportionally lower and the voltage swing between charger and battery pack is lower, so again the power electronics will almost for sure incur lower losses due to DC-DC conversion.
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psteinx
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by psteinx »

squirrel1963 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:32 pm The number used for round trip efficiency is 80% (charging the battery + energy loss during discharge) so the charging portion of 10% is usually the ballpark number, although Tesla has better power electronics than most, so 6%-8% sounds accurate.
On fast DC charging (L3) efficiency should be much higher because the current is proportionally lower and the voltage swing between charger and battery pack is lower, so again the power electronics will almost for sure incur lower losses due to DC-DC conversion.
While not huge factors in the calculations, a few small #s add up to just a little bit.

1) Power loss on charging with an EV. Given the above, 6-10% across EVs?
2) Power loss from sitting idle. I'm not what's typical here, with a Tesla or a non-Tesla (can others comment?) But I presume there is a constant loss, to some extent, from a given state of charge. Not sure what this would add up to over time. An ICE loses, I assume a negligible amount of gas to evaporation (sealed system).
3) Credit card cashbacks on gas purchases. Probably average 1.5% for most of us BHers, but can be more to those who manage their CCs a bit more and/or optimize among CCs and cashback categories. I think utility bills (i.e. electricity) are less likely to give cashback (though my wife pays most of ours, so I'm far from certain, and of course there will be variation...).
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by neilpilot »

squirrel1963 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:32 pm
neilpilot wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:01 pm
gougou wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:37 pm
aquaman wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:13 pm ...

As several of us have pointed out upthread, without factoring in the difference in depreciation (this is the biggest variable; a very slight swing in it and your $600/year savings can actually end up being a net cost), insurance and cost of repairs, these calculations don't actually tell you much.

The main reason for my post is to ask whether when running all these financial calculations, people are actually running the numbers correctly, which is frequently a fairly complex process. Gas prices are simple, as all the taxes are already included, although you may have 5% or whatever credit card cashback (and the cashback won't affect the calculations all that much).

Electricity is frequently more complex, however, even with 100% home charging. For instance, in my own case, the kwh price shown by the utility isn't the all-in price. The final price includes various additional surcharges and taxes, so the all-in price ends up being 1/3 higher than the official kwh rate shown by the utility.

A lot of power companies also have seasonal rates, so you have to account for those. Likewise, with a number of power companies, switching to an electric vehicle rate may give you an amazing off-peak rate, but increase the peak rate. If so, switching to such a rate may or may not save you money, but even if it does, just quoting the low off-peak rate wouldn't be accurate, as you'd still be paying the higher peak rate, which would eat into the savings.
Charging loss is almost always ignored in these calculations. Only about 80% of electricity you put in the car is used to drive it:
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/0 ... -fotw.html

So if the electricity rate is $0.15/KWH and you lose 20% on charging, you are effectively paying $0.1875/KWH. That makes a big difference when calculating fuel costs.
On the average, this could be correct. However, maybe efficiencies have improved since that 2018 article?

Based on user measurements for my particular EV model, MY2021, the typical loss when L2 charging is 6%-8%. The loss using an L1 charger is likely higher, and the loss using a L3 DC charger is probably a bit lower.
The number used for round trip efficiency is 80% (charging the battery + energy loss during discharge) so the charging portion of 10% is usually the ballpark number, although Tesla has better power electronics than most, so 6%-8% sounds accurate.
On fast DC charging (L3) efficiency should be much higher because the current is proportionally lower and the voltage swing between charger and battery pack is lower, so again the power electronics will almost for sure incur lower losses due to DC-DC conversion.
My point is that while Gougou calculated that a $0.15/kwh service would actually cost $0.1875/kwh due to charging losses, the actual figure is closer to $0.1613/kwh.

BTW - my VW's loss on charging is 6%-8%.....not Tesla
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squirrel1963
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by squirrel1963 »

neilpilot wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:49 pm
squirrel1963 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:32 pm
neilpilot wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:01 pm
gougou wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:37 pm
aquaman wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:13 pm ...

As several of us have pointed out upthread, without factoring in the difference in depreciation (this is the biggest variable; a very slight swing in it and your $600/year savings can actually end up being a net cost), insurance and cost of repairs, these calculations don't actually tell you much.

The main reason for my post is to ask whether when running all these financial calculations, people are actually running the numbers correctly, which is frequently a fairly complex process. Gas prices are simple, as all the taxes are already included, although you may have 5% or whatever credit card cashback (and the cashback won't affect the calculations all that much).

Electricity is frequently more complex, however, even with 100% home charging. For instance, in my own case, the kwh price shown by the utility isn't the all-in price. The final price includes various additional surcharges and taxes, so the all-in price ends up being 1/3 higher than the official kwh rate shown by the utility.

A lot of power companies also have seasonal rates, so you have to account for those. Likewise, with a number of power companies, switching to an electric vehicle rate may give you an amazing off-peak rate, but increase the peak rate. If so, switching to such a rate may or may not save you money, but even if it does, just quoting the low off-peak rate wouldn't be accurate, as you'd still be paying the higher peak rate, which would eat into the savings.
Charging loss is almost always ignored in these calculations. Only about 80% of electricity you put in the car is used to drive it:
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/0 ... -fotw.html

So if the electricity rate is $0.15/KWH and you lose 20% on charging, you are effectively paying $0.1875/KWH. That makes a big difference when calculating fuel costs.
On the average, this could be correct. However, maybe efficiencies have improved since that 2018 article?

Based on user measurements for my particular EV model, MY2021, the typical loss when L2 charging is 6%-8%. The loss using an L1 charger is likely higher, and the loss using a L3 DC charger is probably a bit lower.
The number used for round trip efficiency is 80% (charging the battery + energy loss during discharge) so the charging portion of 10% is usually the ballpark number, although Tesla has better power electronics than most, so 6%-8% sounds accurate.
On fast DC charging (L3) efficiency should be much higher because the current is proportionally lower and the voltage swing between charger and battery pack is lower, so again the power electronics will almost for sure incur lower losses due to DC-DC conversion.
My point is that while Gougou calculated that a $0.15/kwh service would actually cost $0.1875/kwh due to charging losses, the actual figure is closer to $0.1613/kwh.

BTW - my VW's loss on charging is 6%-8%.....not Tesla
Nice! No doubt the Tesla advantage in electronics and batteries is eroding, as it should be given EV technology is maturing very rapidly. Right now I think the only real advantage of Tesla is the charging network. It will be very interesting to see what happens one Tesla opens up its charging network to all EVs.
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by willthrill81 »

Californiastate wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:59 am I keep forgetting that other states smell gasoline at their fuel stations.
And have significantly cheaper fuel too. :D
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squirrel1963
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by squirrel1963 »

psteinx wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:43 pm
squirrel1963 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:32 pm The number used for round trip efficiency is 80% (charging the battery + energy loss during discharge) so the charging portion of 10% is usually the ballpark number, although Tesla has better power electronics than most, so 6%-8% sounds accurate.
On fast DC charging (L3) efficiency should be much higher because the current is proportionally lower and the voltage swing between charger and battery pack is lower, so again the power electronics will almost for sure incur lower losses due to DC-DC conversion.
While not huge factors in the calculations, a few small #s add up to just a little bit.

1) Power loss on charging with an EV. Given the above, 6-10% across EVs?
2) Power loss from sitting idle. I'm not what's typical here, with a Tesla or a non-Tesla (can others comment?) But I presume there is a constant loss, to some extent, from a given state of charge. Not sure what this would add up to over time. An ICE loses, I assume a negligible amount of gas to evaporation (sealed system).
1) probably 10% is accurate and conservative at this point, that's the number I use if anything because it's easy :-)

2) I left the Tesla Model 3 parked a few days in the garage without plugging in and I've never seen drop it, keyword here being a few days. The display only shows pecentage charge as an integral number, so to know with any accuracy I'd need to leave it long enough for the percent to drop by a couple points and then measure daily loss.

There are two things that factor in a Tesla if you leave it outside:
* if you enable thermal cabin protection it will use either the fan or AC to cool it down.
* if you enable sentry mode the onboard computer will keep monitoring cameras for nearby movement and record it on a USB drive.

I find both of these features useful enough that I will always leave them enabled regardless of consumption, but they can of course be left disabled if you care more about power loss. You can also disable/enable them remotely at will.
If the battery level drops below 20% these features will all be disabled and the computer will go into deep sleep to avoid any further power loss.
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by cmr79 »

I would consider any energy inefficiency once an EV is charged to be a negative on the MPGe side, much like I would consider the 0 MPG I get in my ICE while idling to be a negative to be averaged out across the overall MPG for the vehicle based on my driving style.
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just frank
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by just frank »

Yeah, to expand on my use case...

1) Daily driving and commuting (60% of my miles), plug in in 5 seconds to 7kW L2 in garage when the charge gets to 50% or whatever. 5 seconds to unplug and stow cord on wall. More convenient than ICE.

2) Trip to the beach, 100-110 miles away depending on the beach... no DCFC required, arrive home with 20-40 miles in the tank. No delay relative to ICE. Car recharges 200 miles in 7 hours in my garage.

3) 250 mile trip to see my Sister, 250 miles each way. Stop at a DCFC at any one of the rest areas I would stop anyway, get enough charge during a potty break and buying snacks to get to destination (like +50-60 miles in 15-20 minutes) with 40 miles to spare. Recharge car on L1 while there in 48 hours (over weekend). Reverse process to get home. No delay relative to ICE and no prep time.

4) All other trips... like I detailed before. Use ABRP/Plugshare/Nav. No need to 'think' or worry. Just ask the app how to get there. Takes a few minutes. For this 400 mile trip a total 80 minutes stopped, which is maybe an 30-60 minutes longer than I might have spent in an ICE car. What is the benefit? I am driving a much nicer car, getting less exhausted, my kids are not getting sick, etc. I have a nice PHEV I could've taken instead (a 2015 Volt) but opted for the BEV Bolt bc of the higher comfort factor.
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by just frank »

7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:33 am
02nz wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:23 am
7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:20 am
02nz wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:16 am
7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:57 am

Exactly. It has to be constantly charged. The Prius C didn't have to be refueled anywhere near as often.

In my opinion the Prius C was a more comfortable car to drive but that is obviously not the fault of the Leaf just a matter of personal preference.
What about the act of plugging in the charging cord is proving challenging? It takes me at most an extra 10 seconds, another 10 seconds unplugging.
Maybe it takes 10 seconds for you. In my case the only plug in my garage in behind a cabinet. We had to cut a hole in the back of the cabinet to gain access to it (cabinet is too heavy to move). So when I want to charge I have to open the cabinet, plug in the charger, uncoil the cord without
pulling the charger out of the wall and plug the car in. Reverse the process when unplugging.
Sounds very grueling indeed, my sympathies. Had you chosen the higher-capacity version of the LEAF or the Bolt, either of which is cost-competitive (after tax incentive in the case of the LEAF) with the Corolla Hybrid, you would have to perform this arduous task all of once a week.
And if I had bought the Corolla Hybrid I wouldn't have to deal with this nonsense at all. Additionally, I would have a car the is capable of doing more than merely commuting. I made a mistake buying a Nissan Leaf S and I regret it. We should have waited for a Corolla Hybrid.
Again, sorry about that rigamarole. I could ask why you don't just leave the charger plugged in with the cabinet door ajar, and hang the charging plug on a nail on the wall, and charge it every night. It would be easier. Seems very curious, but I am sure you have a good reason.

Your experience driving the LEAF to Vegas was a typical experience with non-Tesla BEVs a few years ago. You had to do a bunch of research, math, make plan B and plan C's. Stress over the whole thing. The LEAF never stopped being like that bc the Chademo network is a joke. For that reason, despite being an EV nut, I would never get a LEAF, except at a STEEP discount just to use as a second commuting or teen driver car.
CletusCaddy
Posts: 818
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 4:23 am

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by CletusCaddy »

aquaman wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:13 pm A lot of power companies also have seasonal rates, so you have to account for those. Likewise, with a number of power companies, switching to an electric vehicle rate may give you an amazing off-peak rate, but increase the peak rate. If so, switching to such a rate may or may not save you money, but even if it does, just quoting the low off-peak rate wouldn't be accurate, as you'd still be paying the higher peak rate, which would eat into the savings.
Why would you assume this? Most people use less electricity from midnight-3pm, and more electricty from 3pm-midnight. That is the whole reason why time of use plans incentivize usage the way they do.

So the better assumption to make is that switching from a flat rate plan to a time of use plan should be cost neutral. And then you add the EV charging cost which is the only incremental cost.
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