Ceiling Repair

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Topic Author
student
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Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:58 am

Ceiling Repair

Post by student »

I discovered a crack in the ceiling 1-2 years ago. Here is the image
https://imgur.com/a/Niqfco5
This is from the area to the garage. I did not fix it when I discovered it because I did not want workers in my place. I had a leak 15 years ago in the same spot so I thought this is due to bubbling of paint and an insufficient amount of drywall mud was used during the taping process, and the paper didn't adhere well to the joint. However, my friend said it must be a leak again and need to have it inspected in case of mold. So this scares me.

My first question is what do you think is causing this?

I live in a condo, so this should be the responsibility of the association. (They fixed it 15 years ago.) I have submitted an order but no response. Any recommendation of how to escalate this?
123
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Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: Ceiling Repair

Post by 123 »

The puffiness and decomposition along part of the crack makes me think there's moisture involved again. I noticed in the bottom right area of the photo it looks like there is some puffiness in the paint on that wall as well (unless it's just a lighting issue). I'd be curious about what's on the other side of that back wall and if there is a problem in another unit as well.
The closest helping hand is at the end of your own arm.
adamthesmythe
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Re: Ceiling Repair

Post by adamthesmythe »

To me it does look like water may be involved. It may be necessary to remove enough drywall to see what is happening behind it.

As far as repair- do you have acknowledgement of your request? Consider going to a board meeting to raise the issue, especially if there has been no response of any kind.

Right now nobody is able to get workers out in short order.
Topic Author
student
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Re: Ceiling Repair

Post by student »

123 wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:29 pm The puffiness and decomposition along part of the crack makes me think there's moisture involved again. I noticed in the bottom right area of the photo it looks like there is some puffiness in the paint on that wall as well (unless it's just a lighting issue). I'd be curious about what's on the other side of that back wall and if there is a problem in another unit as well.
Thanks for the response. Yes there is puffiness in the back wall. I think the other side is a gap and is then the wall of the other unit. Knock on wood, I don't see water dripping yet. Getting very nervous once my friend mentioned mold.
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student
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Re: Ceiling Repair

Post by student »

adamthesmythe wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:36 pm To me it does look like water may be involved. It may be necessary to remove enough drywall to see what is happening behind it.

As far as repair- do you have acknowledgement of your request? Consider going to a board meeting to raise the issue, especially if there has been no response of any kind.

Right now nobody is able to get workers out in short order.
They sent me an automatic reply after I submitted it online. I plan to call them in a couple of days. Maybe board meeting is the next step. My concern is whether it is a health hazard.
Last edited by student on Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sandtrap
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Re: Ceiling Repair

Post by Sandtrap »

student wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:18 pm I discovered a crack in the ceiling 1-2 years ago. Here is the image
https://imgur.com/a/Niqfco5
This is from the area to the garage. I did not fix it when I discovered it because I did not want workers in my place. I had a leak 15 years ago in the same spot so I thought this is due to bubbling of paint and an insufficient amount of drywall mud was used during the taping process, and the paper didn't adhere well to the joint. However, my friend said it must be a leak again and need to have it inspected in case of mold. So this scares me.

My first question is what do you think is causing this?

I live in a condo, so this should be the responsibility of the association. (They fixed it 15 years ago.) I have submitted an order but no response. Any recommendation of how to escalate this?
call and leave a message with the manager or

the best route is to have a documented contact
so
sent a letter with pictures to board, hoa, chair, manager, bosses, expressing your health concerns about mold or injury from ceiling collapse.

they will get on it asap.

j🌴
Wiki Bogleheads Wiki: Everything You Need to Know
Topic Author
student
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Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:58 am

Re: Ceiling Repair

Post by student »

We just have a big storm and I see water dripping.
Topic Author
student
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Re: Ceiling Repair

Post by student »

Sandtrap wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:13 pm
student wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:18 pm I discovered a crack in the ceiling 1-2 years ago. Here is the image
https://imgur.com/a/Niqfco5
This is from the area to the garage. I did not fix it when I discovered it because I did not want workers in my place. I had a leak 15 years ago in the same spot so I thought this is due to bubbling of paint and an insufficient amount of drywall mud was used during the taping process, and the paper didn't adhere well to the joint. However, my friend said it must be a leak again and need to have it inspected in case of mold. So this scares me.

My first question is what do you think is causing this?

I live in a condo, so this should be the responsibility of the association. (They fixed it 15 years ago.) I have submitted an order but no response. Any recommendation of how to escalate this?
call and leave a message with the manager or

the best route is to have a documented contact
so
sent a letter with pictures to board, hoa, chair, manager, bosses, expressing your health concerns about mold or injury from ceiling collapse.

they will get on it asap.

j🌴
Thanks. I will use your advice.
Big Dog
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Re: Ceiling Repair

Post by Big Dog »

student wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:37 pm We just have a big storm and I see water dripping.
before this recent post, my first reaction was a leak from the roof. And now you should be able to get teh attention of Maintenance, since a roof leak is something they need to jump on to reduce chances of permanent water damage.
Topic Author
student
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Re: Ceiling Repair

Post by student »

Big Dog wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:54 pm
student wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:37 pm We just have a big storm and I see water dripping.
before this recent post, my first reaction was a leak from the roof. And now you should be able to get teh attention of Maintenance, since a roof leak is something they need to jump on to reduce chances of permanent water damage.
I just called the after hour person. My guess is that it is a small leak and I didn't realize the issue.
Last edited by student on Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Sandtrap
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Re: Ceiling Repair

Post by Sandtrap »

student wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:49 pm
Sandtrap wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:13 pm
student wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:18 pm I discovered a crack in the ceiling 1-2 years ago. Here is the image
https://imgur.com/a/Niqfco5
This is from the area to the garage. I did not fix it when I discovered it because I did not want workers in my place. I had a leak 15 years ago in the same spot so I thought this is due to bubbling of paint and an insufficient amount of drywall mud was used during the taping process, and the paper didn't adhere well to the joint. However, my friend said it must be a leak again and need to have it inspected in case of mold. So this scares me.

My first question is what do you think is causing this?

I live in a condo, so this should be the responsibility of the association. (They fixed it 15 years ago.) I have submitted an order but no response. Any recommendation of how to escalate this?
call and leave a message with the manager or

the best route is to have a documented contact
so
sent a letter with pictures to board, hoa, chair, manager, bosses, expressing your health concerns about mold or injury from ceiling collapse.

they will get on it asap.

j🌴
Thanks. I will use your advice.
also voice your concerns in the email and hard copy letter about concerns for personal property damage.

best.

J🌺
Wiki Bogleheads Wiki: Everything You Need to Know
Topic Author
student
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Re: Ceiling Repair

Post by student »

Sandtrap wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:07 pm
student wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:49 pm
Sandtrap wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:13 pm
student wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:18 pm I discovered a crack in the ceiling 1-2 years ago. Here is the image
https://imgur.com/a/Niqfco5
This is from the area to the garage. I did not fix it when I discovered it because I did not want workers in my place. I had a leak 15 years ago in the same spot so I thought this is due to bubbling of paint and an insufficient amount of drywall mud was used during the taping process, and the paper didn't adhere well to the joint. However, my friend said it must be a leak again and need to have it inspected in case of mold. So this scares me.

My first question is what do you think is causing this?

I live in a condo, so this should be the responsibility of the association. (They fixed it 15 years ago.) I have submitted an order but no response. Any recommendation of how to escalate this?
call and leave a message with the manager or

the best route is to have a documented contact
so
sent a letter with pictures to board, hoa, chair, manager, bosses, expressing your health concerns about mold or injury from ceiling collapse.

they will get on it asap.

j🌴
Thanks. I will use your advice.
also voice your concerns in the email and hard copy letter about concerns for personal property damage.

best.

J🌺
Thanks.
safari
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Re: Ceiling Repair

Post by safari »

I had a similar problem in my townhouse. There was a roof leak, which got taken care of by the HOA, but they refused to do anything about my ceiling, claiming that the drywall is my personal property and that I should be fixing it myself, regardless of what caused the leak. I will probably need to replace the entire ceiling in the living room, as it had leaks and cracks in multiple places. I wonder how much that will cost me. I haven't asked for any quotes yet, but it would be good to know the ballpark.
Topic Author
student
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Re: Ceiling Repair

Post by student »

safari wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:51 pm I had a similar problem in my townhouse. There was a roof leak, which got taken care of by the HOA, but they refused to do anything about my ceiling, claiming that the drywall is my personal property and that I should be fixing it myself, regardless of what caused the leak. I will probably need to replace the entire ceiling in the living room, as it had leaks and cracks in multiple places. I wonder how much that will cost me. I haven't asked for any quotes yet, but it would be good to know the ballpark.
Interesting. My understanding is that I am responsible for the paint but they are responsible for the drywall. Many years ago, they tried to make adjustments. As far as I remember, it did not pass.
safari
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Re: Ceiling Repair

Post by safari »

student wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:57 pm
safari wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:51 pm I had a similar problem in my townhouse. There was a roof leak, which got taken care of by the HOA, but they refused to do anything about my ceiling, claiming that the drywall is my personal property and that I should be fixing it myself, regardless of what caused the leak. I will probably need to replace the entire ceiling in the living room, as it had leaks and cracks in multiple places. I wonder how much that will cost me. I haven't asked for any quotes yet, but it would be good to know the ballpark.
Interesting. My understanding is that I am responsible for the paint but they are responsible for the drywall. Many years ago, they tried to make adjustments. As far as I remember, it did not pass.
I hate dealing with the HOA. They told me that they consulted with their insurance and were told that the master policy doesn't cover the interior drywall damage and advised me to submit a claim against my personal HO-6 policy.
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jabberwockOG
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Re: Ceiling Repair

Post by jabberwockOG »

Not sure if submitting and insurance claim for fixing drywall damage is a good idea unless the damage is extensive and the damage was sudden.

Drywall is pretty easy to repair assuming a smooth ceiling. Texture is more labor intensive as its much harder to patch and make it blend in. Wait until roof is repaired and you have 100% verified/confirmed it's no longer leaking (don't assume a roof repair actually fixed a leak until you confirm yourself during a hard rain).

After leak is fixed, a handy man should easily be able to patch in a new section of drywall, then you need to have the ceiling repainted. Or just repaint the patched section if a perfect paint match with existing ceiling isn't an issue - like in a garage.

Might be $500-800 cost range depending on the actual size dimensions and if you repaint entire ceiling. Maybe less if you find a low cost handy man, or a painter that does light drywall repair- this is a simple repair and I am assuming it is simple water damage from a roof or flashing failing and not a structural issue causing water leak - a lot more complicated.
Mr. Rumples
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Re: Ceiling Repair

Post by Mr. Rumples »

The condo's documents will say who owns what. Ours, when I was on the board - not in one now - was always interpreted to mean the owner was responsible for the drywall; however, an owner disputed the interpretation and we went to our attorney (we kept one on retainer) and she said, nope, the HOA was responsible, but the owner painted.

The board should really address this to protect the building. Mold could become an issue, not fixing it could be considered negligence on their part. Depending on the age of the building, there could be asbestos issues. If the master policy doesn't cover it, it doesn't remove the condo from liability if that's what the documents say, only that insurance won't pay for it.

When it comes to escalation, part of that depends on where you live. In CO, where I was on the board, by law, all board emails were open to owners with certain exceptions like issues in litigation or if an owner had some personal issue (mental health for example). Thus, it might be worthwhile to research this. (Thus, board members ended up separating their board business in separate email addresses.)

A reasonable time for a non emergency is by the next board meeting and for it to be fixed or on the agenda. Again, check. your state for open board meeting statutes. They could only go into executive sessions to discuss items in litigation (not potential) and some personal issues as mentioned above. Even then, they had to take the formal vote out of executive session. A lot of old timers on the board did not like this at all.

This handy little tool can check moisture:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/General-Too ... /100651808
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Sandtrap
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Re: Ceiling Repair

Post by Sandtrap »

student wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:18 pm I discovered a crack in the ceiling 1-2 years ago. Here is the image
https://imgur.com/a/Niqfco5
This is from the area to the garage. I did not fix it when I discovered it because I did not want workers in my place. I had a leak 15 years ago in the same spot so I thought this is due to bubbling of paint and an insufficient amount of drywall mud was used during the taping process, and the paper didn't adhere well to the joint. However, my friend said it must be a leak again and need to have it inspected in case of mold. So this scares me.

My first question is what do you think is causing this?

I live in a condo, so this should be the responsibility of the association. (They fixed it 15 years ago.) I have submitted an order but no response. Any recommendation of how to escalate this?
Are your renting?

Or do you own this condo unit?

If the leak was not caused by you. . . generally. . (*with a zillion exceptions). . then that entity is liable for damages and repairs.

Gather all of your HOA documents, ownership papers, etc, and read very carefully. (or take to legal counsel to review and also tell you what applies in your area and specifics.)

If renting, contact landlord.

*Consult with an attorney does not assume litigation, etc, it's just talking to a professional to gather your options. Often, just learning this way, is a good move.

j :D
Wiki Bogleheads Wiki: Everything You Need to Know
Topic Author
student
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Re: Ceiling Repair

Post by student »

Sandtrap wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:47 am
student wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:18 pm I discovered a crack in the ceiling 1-2 years ago. Here is the image
https://imgur.com/a/Niqfco5
This is from the area to the garage. I did not fix it when I discovered it because I did not want workers in my place. I had a leak 15 years ago in the same spot so I thought this is due to bubbling of paint and an insufficient amount of drywall mud was used during the taping process, and the paper didn't adhere well to the joint. However, my friend said it must be a leak again and need to have it inspected in case of mold. So this scares me.

My first question is what do you think is causing this?

I live in a condo, so this should be the responsibility of the association. (They fixed it 15 years ago.) I have submitted an order but no response. Any recommendation of how to escalate this?
Are your renting?

Or do you own this condo unit?

If the leak was not caused by you. . . generally. . (*with a zillion exceptions). . then that entity is liable for damages and repairs.

Gather all of your HOA documents, ownership papers, etc, and read very carefully. (or take to legal counsel to review and also tell you what applies in your area and specifics.)

If renting, contact landlord.

*Consult with an attorney does not assume litigation, etc, it's just talking to a professional to gather your options. Often, just learning this way, is a good move.

j :D
Yes. I own the unit.
Topic Author
student
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Re: Ceiling Repair

Post by student »

Thank you all for replying.
Topic Author
student
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Re: Ceiling Repair

Post by student »

Update: I called the management company who said they need approval from the board. The good news is I was able to talk to a member of the board, who said they will send someone over. The bad news is when I talked to my neighbor who is having the same issue, likely from the same leak, he told me that he has submitted a work request many months ago.

Given that the member of the board called me back, it is a good sign that the board wants to do the right thing. Given the info from my neighbor, it seems that the management company is the issue.

I have also learned that the board is not currently having public monthly meeting. My understanding is that it was suspended since the beginning of the pandemic.

So at this point, how long should I wait before I take the next step, and if so, what should be the next step? (I don't want to alienate the board if it is not the source of the problem.)
Target2019
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Re: Ceiling Repair

Post by Target2019 »

A professional would create a small opening and insert a camera to look around at what's going on in the attic.

It could be a roof leak, condensation, leaking pipe, or a result of spillage from a tray associated with AC.
Topic Author
student
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Re: Ceiling Repair

Post by student »

Target2019 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:43 am A professional would create a small opening and insert a camera to look around at what's going on in the attic.

It could be a roof leak, condensation, leaking pipe, or a result of spillage from a tray associated with AC.
I am quite sure that it is a roof leak as my neighbor said that it only happens when it rains, it is near the chimney area. So we suspect that it is along the flashing of the chimney.
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Sandtrap
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Re: Ceiling Repair

Post by Sandtrap »

student wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:31 am Update: I called the management company who said they need approval from the board. The good news is I was able to talk to a member of the board, who said they will send someone over. The bad news is when I talked to my neighbor who is having the same issue, likely from the same leak, he told me that he has submitted a work request many months ago.

Given that the member of the board called me back, it is a good sign that the board wants to do the right thing. Given the info from my neighbor, it seems that the management company is the issue.

I have also learned that the board is not currently having public monthly meeting. My understanding is that it was suspended since the beginning of the pandemic.

So at this point, how long should I wait before I take the next step, and if so, what should be the next step? (I don't want to alienate the board if it is not the source of the problem.)
To OP:

(initial dis laimer)
One path of many based on opinions and experiences that vary greatly:

It is: Useful, and actionable and . . . get's nearly immediate results the majority of the time. IMHO:

To OP:
1. Seek legal counsel for a free consult. You want to pay them a one time fee to write a letter on legal letterhead for you.
(or you can write the hard copy letter yourself but. . .coming from legal counsel. .,. it will indeed "have teeth" and get noticed.)

2. Your homework:

a) make a list. . and event recap since you first had a ceiling crack and or leak. It might have been long ago. Put as nearest you can the dates and times and durations of each thing as it happened leading up to the present. Don't embelish. Just list facts. Something like a police report.

b) make a conversation recap. same as above. just a list with who you spoke to when or contacted when, even if there was no response then note that, even if it was this conversation with a board or chair or stool member in the elevator, he said what, you said, he said what, and that's that. Like that.

(also any and all contacts, even if one way from you with nor response, date, time, email, text, note on the maintenance building door, whatever)

d) also include conversations and events with neighbors regarding the issue, what they said and did years ago, or recently and what happened.

c) take pictures, of the crack and damage to the ceiling, also any damage to your carpeting or furniture, any damp spots, dark mold (good one) or looks like mold on the ceiling.

to OP:

d) write out on a separate sheet your concerns:

1) I am concerned about my personal health for mold, toxins, ceiling insulation particles in the air, ceiling debris falling on my personal items

2) I am concerned about leaks on the next rains and damage to my personal items and liability for that.

3) I am concerned about having to vacate my premises due to the above and have to stay somewhere at my reimburseable expense, who is liable? HOA, Board, Management company, etc. or would you have to go to "small claims court"?

4) A list of all the names and addresses of every single entity involved: The HOA, The Management Company, The local "board of health" for the city, state (here, 1 letter to the customer complaint dept or like that, another to the General Supervisor in Charge, the "building department" (again, 1 letter to the supervisor, one to the complaints dept), the Department of consumer complaints (again, 2 letters) , the Resident manager, etc, etc.

To OP:
"(not legal advice but there is a reason for a minimum of 2 letters to each of the above. . .PM me and I'll let you know why it works).

***The above approach has a reason for sending the "CC" letter to multiple entities because of the structures and functions these entities and the people in them to some degree. It does not work well if sent to only one person or entity. (pm me for why).

5. Take your homework to legal counsel and have him/her draft the letter and send it out to your addresses.
Each letter will have a "CC" listing all the other entities that the letter is being sent to. (vital).

To OP:
**What the above does is call immediate attention to your problem to all parties concerned in a very concrete way so you are not just another "tenant" or "resident" that's been complaining about something forever and can be ignored. You will be helping your neighbors as well if they have issues with this leak.

It is very very actionable and notes "consequences and liabilities". . .

**Comprehensively, this is a ceiling leak problem and a people problem and a business problem, etc..

**There is always the common though that talking to a lawyer is a "don't go there" or "I don't want to bring a lawsuit or cause trouble", and other myths and fears. But, at this point, talking or consulting with a "professional" is what's needed to learn of your options and to "get things done" and get "help".

To OP:
I hope this is helpful to you.

**PM me as you wish if you have questions or need help on the "homework", etc.
j :D

dis laimer: zillions of ways of doing things and zillions of opinionizations and quick comments and banter based on nil to zero to extensive personal experience or professional experiences.
This is only one based on owning a property management and R/E development company.
(not legal counsel nor legal advice nor medical advice, etc).
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Topic Author
student
Posts: 7136
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Re: Ceiling Repair

Post by student »

Sandtrap wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:07 am
student wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:31 am Update: I called the management company who said they need approval from the board. The good news is I was able to talk to a member of the board, who said they will send someone over. The bad news is when I talked to my neighbor who is having the same issue, likely from the same leak, he told me that he has submitted a work request many months ago.

Given that the member of the board called me back, it is a good sign that the board wants to do the right thing. Given the info from my neighbor, it seems that the management company is the issue.

I have also learned that the board is not currently having public monthly meeting. My understanding is that it was suspended since the beginning of the pandemic.

So at this point, how long should I wait before I take the next step, and if so, what should be the next step? (I don't want to alienate the board if it is not the source of the problem.)
To OP:

(initial dis laimer)
One path of many based on opinions and experiences that vary greatly:

It is: Useful, and actionable and . . . get's nearly immediate results the majority of the time. IMHO:

To OP:
1. Seek legal counsel for a free consult. You want to pay them a one time fee to write a letter on legal letterhead for you.
(or you can write the hard copy letter yourself but. . .coming from legal counsel. .,. it will indeed "have teeth" and get noticed.)

2. Your homework:

a) make a list. . and event recap since you first had a ceiling crack and or leak. It might have been long ago. Put as nearest you can the dates and times and durations of each thing as it happened leading up to the present. Don't embelish. Just list facts. Something like a police report.

b) make a conversation recap. same as above. just a list with who you spoke to when or contacted when, even if there was no response then note that, even if it was this conversation with a board or chair or stool member in the elevator, he said what, you said, he said what, and that's that. Like that.

(also any and all contacts, even if one way from you with nor response, date, time, email, text, note on the maintenance building door, whatever)

d) also include conversations and events with neighbors regarding the issue, what they said and did years ago, or recently and what happened.

c) take pictures, of the crack and damage to the ceiling, also any damage to your carpeting or furniture, any damp spots, dark mold (good one) or looks like mold on the ceiling.

to OP:

d) write out on a separate sheet your concerns:

1) I am concerned about my personal health for mold, toxins, ceiling insulation particles in the air, ceiling debris falling on my personal items

2) I am concerned about leaks on the next rains and damage to my personal items and liability for that.

3) I am concerned about having to vacate my premises due to the above and have to stay somewhere at my reimburseable expense, who is liable? HOA, Board, Management company, etc. or would you have to go to "small claims court"?

4) A list of all the names and addresses of every single entity involved: The HOA, The Management Company, The local "board of health" for the city, state (here, 1 letter to the customer complaint dept or like that, another to the General Supervisor in Charge, the "building department" (again, 1 letter to the supervisor, one to the complaints dept), the Department of consumer complaints (again, 2 letters) , the Resident manager, etc, etc.

To OP:
"(not legal advice but there is a reason for a minimum of 2 letters to each of the above. . .PM me and I'll let you know why it works).

***The above approach has a reason for sending the "CC" letter to multiple entities because of the structures and functions these entities and the people in them to some degree. It does not work well if sent to only one person or entity. (pm me for why).

5. Take your homework to legal counsel and have him/her draft the letter and send it out to your addresses.
Each letter will have a "CC" listing all the other entities that the letter is being sent to. (vital).

To OP:
**What the above does is call immediate attention to your problem to all parties concerned in a very concrete way so you are not just another "tenant" or "resident" that's been complaining about something forever and can be ignored. You will be helping your neighbors as well if they have issues with this leak.

It is very very actionable and notes "consequences and liabilities". . .

**Comprehensively, this is a ceiling leak problem and a people problem and a business problem, etc..

**There is always the common though that talking to a lawyer is a "don't go there" or "I don't want to bring a lawsuit or cause trouble", and other myths and fears. But, at this point, talking or consulting with a "professional" is what's needed to learn of your options and to "get things done" and get "help".

To OP:
I hope this is helpful to you.

**PM me as you wish if you have questions or need help on the "homework", etc.
j :D

dis laimer: zillions of ways of doing things and zillions of opinionizations and quick comments and banter based on nil to zero to extensive personal experience or professional experiences.
This is only one based on owning a property management and R/E development company.
(not legal counsel nor legal advice nor medical advice, etc).
Thank you so much for the detailed response.
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