Let's play chess

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 31034
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:17 pm
Location: USA

Re: Let's play chess

Post by willthrill81 »

Northern Flicker wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:52 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 4:08 pm
gips wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 12:23 pm
Marseille07 wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 8:57 am
willthrill81 wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 8:33 am I'm not convinced that the problem in that game was that the 'attack was watered down' as much as imprecise play after trading down.
I don't think anyone claims gips played perfectly. In fact chess is full of mistakes, even for someone like Carlsen as he can't beat Stockfish.

It'd be super interesting if gips could post the PGN of the game or something so we can all analyze.
I've read and participated in many of will's forum threads, he's smart, detail oriented and his reasoning is nuanced. Here, for whatever, reason I don't think Will is open to honest debate as evidenced by comments like "'I'm not convinced that the problem in that game was that the 'attack was watered down' as much as imprecise play after trading down." It's self-evident my play was imprecise as is likely against a player rated 200 points higher and I'm sure he knows this.

I suggest we all move on.
I'm always open to debate, but when masters who teach for a living like Pandolfini and Silman clearly recommend a particular course of action, it's hard for me to be dissuaded otherwise by other novice players.
Pandolfini and Silman will also tell you that it is a general guideline, and cannot be applied rigidly to every position, and certainly not to one that you have not seen and with which you are unfamiliar. The queen trade may have been an error or may have been an efficient way to win the game. We can say that, much more often than not, it is an efficient winning plan, but that does not apply uniformly to every position.

Also, if it is a blitz game, and you are behind on time, continuing an attack to play for mate could be the best winning plan, again, depending on circumstance.
I agree 100%. Perhaps the game in question was one of the exceptions. But in spite of evidence to the contrary, I strongly suspect that it wasn't.
“Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings
User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 31034
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:17 pm
Location: USA

Re: Let's play chess

Post by willthrill81 »

gips wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 8:05 pm we've all said this in so many different ways, Will's constant refrain is "but pandoflini says..."
No, it isn't. I'm not just appealing to the masters. There is very good reason for trading down when you are materially ahead. There are certainly exceptions to this, but they are just that: exceptions. The normal strategy is to trade down so as to maximize the impact of your material advantage.

If you'd like, you can post the pgn of the game for us all to review. Otherwise, I agree that continued discussion of this will be fruitless.
“Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings
Marseille07
Posts: 10103
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:41 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

willthrill81 wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 8:09 am I agree 100%. Perhaps the game in question was one of the exceptions. But in spite of evidence to the contrary, I strongly suspect that it wasn't.
Are you still going with this?

When you observe Stockfish, there are lots of situations where it doesn't trade down just because it is up in material because it is more advantageous to keep the pieces on the board and continue attacking.

No one's saying trading down is a bad idea...it's not a bad idea. But trading down isn't always the optimal play. Your +5 advantage can be reduced to +2.5 after trading down, for example.
US & FM (5% seed) | 300K Cash
User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 31034
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:17 pm
Location: USA

Re: Let's play chess

Post by willthrill81 »

Marseille07 wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 8:13 am
willthrill81 wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 8:09 am I agree 100%. Perhaps the game in question was one of the exceptions. But in spite of evidence to the contrary, I strongly suspect that it wasn't.
Are you still going with this?

When you observe Stockfish, there are lots of situations where it doesn't trade down just because it is up in material because it is more advantageous to keep the pieces on the board and continue attacking.

No one's saying trading down is a bad idea...it's not a bad idea. But trading down isn't always the optimal play. Your +5 advantage can be reduced to +2.5 after trading down, for example.
Comparing what Stockfish can do to what mere mortals like us can do seems potentially erroneous to me. For instance, Stockfish, Fritz, etc. will recommend a move that leads to mate in 20 but that is very complex with many potentially pitfalls over a move that will lead to mate in 40 but is a fairly simple win. I would prefer the latter every time.

Again, I agree that trading down isn't always optimal. No strategy is. But in the absence of evidence to the contrary, I've yet to hear why this strategy failed in the instance in question. So far, we only know that the player who attempted to employ it subsequently lost. That's obviously not grounds for evaluating the strategy whatsoever.
“Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings
User avatar
canadianbacon
Posts: 486
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:04 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by canadianbacon »

It seems like something that is position-dependent, does it not? Sometimes you can trade down without creating other weaknesses or counterplay, and sometimes it's harder to do that and it might make more sense to use your extra material to try to win more.

For example, just for me, if I am up a piece or the exchange but down a pawn or worse pawn structure, I would like to use my extra piece to improve that situation before trading down. It just seem more likely to lead to an orderly result. Also if you mess up the endgame (I know, I know, you guys would never do that :-D) you can often sack an extra piece to stop a queen.
Bulls make money, bears make money, pigs get slaughtered.
gips
Posts: 1279
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 5:42 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by gips »

willthrill81 wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 8:11 am
gips wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 8:05 pm we've all said this in so many different ways, Will's constant refrain is "but pandoflini says..."
No, it isn't. I'm not just appealing to the masters. There is very good reason for trading down when you are materially ahead. There are certainly exceptions to this, but they are just that: exceptions. The normal strategy is to trade down so as to maximize the impact of your material advantage.

If you'd like, you can post the pgn of the game for us all to review. Otherwise, I agree that continued discussion of this will be fruitless.
lol. any theories on why the 2350 player offered a queen trade? Do you think he wasn't aware of how simplification works or not familiar with master play? actually, based on rating, I'd guess there was a pretty good chance he was a master, perhaps a FM.

If I were to post the pgn, I'm sure you'd use an engine and say "see, the theory is correct, you made mistakes x,y and z." And of course you'd be correct, that's why people lose.

sigh, sucked back in. alright, say what you want, I'm making a solemn promise not to post about this again.
User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 31034
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:17 pm
Location: USA

Re: Let's play chess

Post by willthrill81 »

canadianbacon wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 8:39 am It seems like something that is position-dependent, does it not? Sometimes you can trade down without creating other weaknesses or counterplay, and sometimes it's harder to do that and it might make more sense to use your extra material to try to win more.
Absolutely. The specifics of a given situation are clearly most important, and the only absolutes in chess are the rules. But the advice to generally trade pieces when you're materially ahead is sound.

On chess forums and other chess-related sites, this is widely advocated advice, such as here, here, here, here, here, and here, to provide a small sampling. That it's being so hotly disputed here is a mystery to me.
“Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings
Marseille07
Posts: 10103
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:41 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

willthrill81 wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 11:05 am That it's being so hotly disputed here is a mystery to me.
No one claims trading down is a bad idea.

As I said, your +5 advantage can get watered down to +2.5 after trading down, in which case you can still win with accurate play, but it'd have been better not to trade down and maintain +5. This is pretty much all we're saying.
US & FM (5% seed) | 300K Cash
User avatar
Topic Author
LadyGeek
Site Admin
Posts: 83315
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:34 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: Let's play chess

Post by LadyGeek »

I removed an off-topic post. As a reminder, see: General Etiquette
At all times we must conduct ourselves in a respectful manner to other posters. Attacks on individuals, insults, name calling, trolling, baiting or other attempts to sow dissension are not acceptable.
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.
User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 31034
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:17 pm
Location: USA

Re: Let's play chess

Post by willthrill81 »

Marseille07 wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 11:54 am
willthrill81 wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 11:05 am That it's being so hotly disputed here is a mystery to me.
No one claims trading down is a bad idea.

As I said, your +5 advantage can get watered down to +2.5 after trading down, in which case you can still win with accurate play, but it'd have been better not to trade down and maintain +5. This is pretty much all we're saying.
100% agreed. My only comment is that some seem to be claiming that trading pieces when you're ahead in material is not generally the best approach.
“Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings
Northern Flicker
Posts: 10760
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:29 am

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Northern Flicker »

Marseille07 wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 8:13 am
willthrill81 wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 8:09 am I agree 100%. Perhaps the game in question was one of the exceptions. But in spite of evidence to the contrary, I strongly suspect that it wasn't.
Are you still going with this?

When you observe Stockfish, there are lots of situations where it doesn't trade down just because it is up in material because it is more advantageous to keep the pieces on the board and continue attacking.

No one's saying trading down is a bad idea...it's not a bad idea. But trading down isn't always the optimal play. Your +5 advantage can be reduced to +2.5 after trading down, for example.
Stockfish does not factor in the higher probability of making an error in a more complex position.
My postings are my opinion, and never should be construed as a recommendation to buy, sell, or hold any particular investment.
Northern Flicker
Posts: 10760
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:29 am

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Northern Flicker »

gips wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 9:34 am

lol. any theories on why the 2350 player offered a queen trade? Do you think he wasn't aware of how simplification works or not familiar with master play? actually, based on rating, I'd guess there was a pretty good chance he was a master, perhaps a FM.
Was it a blitz game? Eliminating a mating attack by trading queens would eliminate the risk of a quick knockout, enabling the player who is down to play for a win or draw on the clock, whether through a flag drop or time scramble error.

Being up a piece generally is a bigger advantage when there are fewer pieces, but a shorter amount of time left favors the stronger player who can play more accurate moves with less think time, so extending the length of the game generally favors the stronger player in blitz.

Also, if you are up a pawn, a general rule of thumb is that you should prefer to trade pieces but not pawns. This is highly dependent on the position, however.
My postings are my opinion, and never should be construed as a recommendation to buy, sell, or hold any particular investment.
User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 31034
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:17 pm
Location: USA

Re: Let's play chess

Post by willthrill81 »

Northern Flicker wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 2:45 pm Also, if you are up a pawn, a general rule of thumb is that you should prefer to trade pieces but not pawns. This is highly dependent on the position, however.
I've suffered from that mistake more than once, trading too many pawns when ahead one and then not being able to force a win. There are many variations on King and Pawn vs. King (or adding a rook to both sides, etc.) that are dead drawn if played accurately. Silman covered them exceptionally well in his endgame book, which I highly recommend.
“Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings
gips
Posts: 1279
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 5:42 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by gips »

I dread trying to win r+p endings. I know the basic r+p endgames but against strong play, I usually mess it up, especially in blitz. I recently saw a blitz r+p endgame on the coffee chess channel and was amazed how fast and confidently the winning side played. A lot of those guys are very strong but this was next level, even for a master. I also dread a b+n endgames, pretty sure I couldn't do it in blitz, but haven't had one in 50 years so not really worth re-learning. otoh, I could probably add 50 rating points if I sat down and studied r+p for a couple of weeks...
Northern Flicker
Posts: 10760
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:29 am

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Northern Flicker »

Traditionally, amateur players in the US have tended to over-emphasize opening study and under-emphasize endgame study. I don’t know if that still is true today.
My postings are my opinion, and never should be construed as a recommendation to buy, sell, or hold any particular investment.
gips
Posts: 1279
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 5:42 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by gips »

Northern Flicker wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 1:13 pm Traditionally, amateur players in the US have tended to over-emphasize opening study and under-emphasize endgame study. I don’t know if that still is true today.
I've always thought that to be true and have devoted quite a bit of (boring) time to endgame study, probably took a year to get through Shereshevsky's book. But as I think you or Will noted, it's helpful to recognize transitions from middlegames to known endgame patterns.
halfnine
Posts: 1917
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:48 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by halfnine »

gips wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:13 pm
Northern Flicker wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 1:13 pm Traditionally, amateur players in the US have tended to over-emphasize opening study and under-emphasize endgame study. I don’t know if that still is true today.
I've always thought that to be true and have devoted quite a bit of (boring) time to endgame study, probably took a year to get through Shereshevsky's book. But as I think you or Will noted, it's helpful to recognize transitions from middlegames to known endgame patterns.
I do not know what chess was like in the past but the biggest takeaway that I see in the present is that players lack any kind of balance in their learning approach. This could be a result of the gamification of most online learning sources or just the availability of online learning in general. And so what I tend to see is individuals with incredible strengths in particular areas and glaring weaknesses in others. And, to some extent, those who wish to perform well at blitz (especially san increment) tend to amplify these strengths/weaknesses for short term gain.
Northern Flicker
Posts: 10760
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:29 am

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Northern Flicker »

This is pretty much the same as in the past. If your opponents are mega-booked-up on openings, it is not fun to play blitz against them and start the middle game from an inferior position, so it influences others to do the same.

I’m not arguing against opening preparation. Your openings need to be very solid if you want to hang with USCF 2300 players, but the same can be said for all facets of the game.
My postings are my opinion, and never should be construed as a recommendation to buy, sell, or hold any particular investment.
Marseille07
Posts: 10103
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:41 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

Candidates underway and Liren & Nakamura lost the opening round.
US & FM (5% seed) | 300K Cash
halfnine
Posts: 1917
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:48 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by halfnine »

Marseille07 wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 12:22 pm Candidates underway and Liren & Nakamura lost the opening round.
Picked 4 out of 4 today. Only 2 for 4 yesterday as I had Liren winning as well as Firouzja (which was a bit ambitious).
Marseille07
Posts: 10103
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:41 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

halfnine wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 2:36 pm
Marseille07 wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 12:22 pm Candidates underway and Liren & Nakamura lost the opening round.
Picked 4 out of 4 today. Only 2 for 4 yesterday as I had Liren winning as well as Firouzja (which was a bit ambitious).
Nice. I'm disappointed by Liren, I picked him to win the tournament but already in trouble. He must have gotten rusty playing 50 games against 2000-rated players.

I saw Rapport leading +4 but I guess he couldn't convert against Alireza.
US & FM (5% seed) | 300K Cash
gips
Posts: 1279
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 5:42 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by gips »

good to see nak bounce back! are any of you watching the games live? I watched some live chess earlier this year with two gms commentating and was amazed to learn something over the course of the game. typically, they talk about tactics which are specific to the game but instead, they talked about positional ideas within the opening which was helpful (but I've since forgotten all of it :happy I'm just too old to hang onto that stuff without putting it actively into play.

best,
Marseille07
Posts: 10103
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:41 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

gips wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:04 pm good to see nak bounce back! are any of you watching the games live? I watched some live chess earlier this year with two gms commentating and was amazed to learn something over the course of the game. typically, they talk about tactics which are specific to the game but instead, they talked about positional ideas within the opening which was helpful (but I've since forgotten all of it :happy I'm just too old to hang onto that stuff without putting it actively into play.

best,
I'm not watching live but I sometimes check out agadmator's recaps later.

So far the most shocking game was Liren 0-1 Nepomniachtchi in 31 moves or w/e.
US & FM (5% seed) | 300K Cash
gips
Posts: 1279
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 5:42 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by gips »

Marseille07 wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:10 pm
gips wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:04 pm good to see nak bounce back! are any of you watching the games live? I watched some live chess earlier this year with two gms commentating and was amazed to learn something over the course of the game. typically, they talk about tactics which are specific to the game but instead, they talked about positional ideas within the opening which was helpful (but I've since forgotten all of it :happy I'm just too old to hang onto that stuff without putting it actively into play.

best,
I'm not watching live but I sometimes check out agadmator's recaps later.

So far the most shocking game was Liren 0-1 Nepomniachtchi in 31 moves or w/e.
I like agadmator but don't find his commentary particularly helpful.
User avatar
canadianbacon
Posts: 486
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:04 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by canadianbacon »

Ding is the family name, so usually when referring to players as Nakamura, Nepo etc you would use Ding, not Liren.
Bulls make money, bears make money, pigs get slaughtered.
Marseille07
Posts: 10103
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:41 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

canadianbacon wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:41 pm Ding is the family name, so usually when referring to players as Nakamura, Nepo etc you would use Ding, not Liren.
That's an interesting point, because people often write Ding Liren (family name - first name). I certainly got mixed up.

However, the same actually goes for Rapport Richárd, as Hungarians often write this way too.

Round 4 Rapport vs Nakamura will be super interesting as Nakamura talked trash in the past: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8R43DpH4IY
US & FM (5% seed) | 300K Cash
User avatar
canadianbacon
Posts: 486
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:04 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by canadianbacon »

Rapport is the family name.
Bulls make money, bears make money, pigs get slaughtered.
Marseille07
Posts: 10103
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:41 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

canadianbacon wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:19 pm Rapport is the family name.
Correct. I was just saying, if we write Ding Liren, why don't we write Rapport Richárd, that's how Hungarians write their name.
US & FM (5% seed) | 300K Cash
User avatar
canadianbacon
Posts: 486
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:04 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by canadianbacon »

Marseille07 wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:20 pm
canadianbacon wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:19 pm Rapport is the family name.
Correct. I was just saying, if we write Ding Liren, why don't we write Rapport Richárd, that's how Hungarians write their name.
I have no idea. My post was about how they should be properly (or at least consistently) referred to.
Bulls make money, bears make money, pigs get slaughtered.
Marseille07
Posts: 10103
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:41 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

Grandmaster Nepomniachtchi playing really well so far, already beaten Ding and Firouzja.

I laughed when agadmator called Grandmaster Nepomniachtchi modern Ivanchuk :D
US & FM (5% seed) | 300K Cash
Marseille07
Posts: 10103
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:41 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

Sicilian getting destroyed at the Candidates...I hear Super GMs prefer e5 because it's easier to play for a draw. Sicilian provides some counterattack but defensively it is not very strong (or so I read).
US & FM (5% seed) | 300K Cash
User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 31034
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:17 pm
Location: USA

Re: Let's play chess

Post by willthrill81 »

Marseille07 wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:18 pm Sicilian getting destroyed at the Candidates...I hear Super GMs prefer e5 because it's easier to play for a draw. Sicilian provides some counterattack but defensively it is not very strong (or so I read).
I'm not sure. Many GMs have played the Sicilian for years, and Fritz has always rated it highly.
“Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings
halfnine
Posts: 1917
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:48 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by halfnine »

Marseille07 wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:18 pm Sicilian getting destroyed at the Candidates...I hear Super GMs prefer e5 because it's easier to play for a draw. Sicilian provides some counterattack but defensively it is not very strong (or so I read).
I've heard that at the Super GM level the general strategy is to play for a draw as black and to target wins with the white pieces. So, while the Sicilian gives great chances to win and it also provides great chances to lose so a more drawish opening is preferred at these top tier tournaments. So, one is less likey to see a Sicilian on the board unless the game is a must win for black.
Marseille07
Posts: 10103
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:41 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

Thanks. Maybe Alireza used Sicilian as he kind of has to start winning black and white...a plan that ended up backfiring.
US & FM (5% seed) | 300K Cash
User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 31034
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:17 pm
Location: USA

Re: Let's play chess

Post by willthrill81 »

Marseille07 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:13 am Thanks. Maybe Alireza used Sicilian as he kind of has to start winning black and white...a plan that ended up backfiring.
As you note, the Sicilian can be very sharp for both sides.
“Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings
Marseille07
Posts: 10103
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:41 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

Alireza very much done after round 6.

Grandmaster Nepomniachtchi doing very well, I think he's indeed a modern Ivanchuk as agadmator says.
US & FM (5% seed) | 300K Cash
Marseille07
Posts: 10103
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:41 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

Looks like it's going to be Nepomniachtchi or Caruana.

What a game by Nepomniachtchi, defeating Rapport as black. It was a tough break for Rapport; he could have settled for a draw but he needed to beat Nepomniachtchi (especially as white) to stay in the tournament, so he went for it and backfired.
Last edited by Marseille07 on Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
US & FM (5% seed) | 300K Cash
Northern Flicker
Posts: 10760
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:29 am

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Northern Flicker »

halfnine wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:07 am
Marseille07 wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:18 pm Sicilian getting destroyed at the Candidates...I hear Super GMs prefer e5 because it's easier to play for a draw. Sicilian provides some counterattack but defensively it is not very strong (or so I read).
I've heard that at the Super GM level the general strategy is to play for a draw as black and to target wins with the white pieces.
It depends on the player. Kasparov, Fischer, Tal, and Bronstein generally played to win with the black pieces, playing sharp defensive systems. Botvinnik, Petrosian, and Karpov were content to draw any of their match games with the black pieces. There are fewer players today at the highest level in the mould of Fischer and Kasparov.

But in the Kasparov-Karpov match in Seville in 1987, Kasparov needed to win game 24 to draw the match and retain his title. Playing the white pieces, what opening did Kasparov choose? Reti’s Opening (by transposition after opening 1. c4).

I remember being surprised by the choice, but apparently the thinking was that a sharp opening may also fizzle out quickly, and while the Reti is a quiet opening, it creates a long, nuanced struggle that does not resolve quickly.
My postings are my opinion, and never should be construed as a recommendation to buy, sell, or hold any particular investment.
halfnine
Posts: 1917
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:48 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by halfnine »

Northern Flicker wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 5:19 pm
halfnine wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:07 am
Marseille07 wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:18 pm Sicilian getting destroyed at the Candidates...I hear Super GMs prefer e5 because it's easier to play for a draw. Sicilian provides some counterattack but defensively it is not very strong (or so I read).
I've heard that at the Super GM level the general strategy is to play for a draw as black and to target wins with the white pieces.
It depends on the player. Kasparov, Fischer, Tal, and Bronstein generally played to win with the black pieces, playing sharp defensive systems. Botvinnik, Petrosian, and Karpov were content to draw any of their match games with the black pieces. There are fewer players today at the highest level in the mould of Fischer and Kasparov.

But in the Kasparov-Karpov match in Seville in 1987, Kasparov needed to win game 24 to draw the match and retain his title. Playing the white pieces, what opening did Kasparov choose? Reti’s Opening (by transposition after opening 1. c4).

I remember being surprised by the choice, but apparently the thinking was that a sharp opening may also fizzle out quickly, and while the Reti is a quiet opening, it creates a long, nuanced struggle that does not resolve quickly.
Overall, I think it depends less on the player and more on the times and comparing to the past is a bit fruitless. Certainly, we know the popularity of openings at the highest tier shift as weaknesses or improvements in lines are discovered. We also know that computers have completley changed the game when it comes to opening prep. We also know at these tournaments that there is very high level prep directed towards very specific opponents. And when you add all these factors together, the Sicilian has gone out of favour at least for the WC and Candidate tournaments and at least for the time being except as a surprise weapon or possibly must win scenarios.

I think the simple reality is players are looking for whatever little edge they can get and are willing to look at a variety of openings against specific opponents and are using engines to do this. Nakumura vs Liren is a great example of the modern day approach which likely woldln't have happened in a Candidates tournament 30 years ago.
Marseille07
Posts: 10103
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:41 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

halfnine wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:12 am
Northern Flicker wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 5:19 pm
halfnine wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:07 am
Marseille07 wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:18 pm Sicilian getting destroyed at the Candidates...I hear Super GMs prefer e5 because it's easier to play for a draw. Sicilian provides some counterattack but defensively it is not very strong (or so I read).
I've heard that at the Super GM level the general strategy is to play for a draw as black and to target wins with the white pieces.
It depends on the player. Kasparov, Fischer, Tal, and Bronstein generally played to win with the black pieces, playing sharp defensive systems. Botvinnik, Petrosian, and Karpov were content to draw any of their match games with the black pieces. There are fewer players today at the highest level in the mould of Fischer and Kasparov.

But in the Kasparov-Karpov match in Seville in 1987, Kasparov needed to win game 24 to draw the match and retain his title. Playing the white pieces, what opening did Kasparov choose? Reti’s Opening (by transposition after opening 1. c4).

I remember being surprised by the choice, but apparently the thinking was that a sharp opening may also fizzle out quickly, and while the Reti is a quiet opening, it creates a long, nuanced struggle that does not resolve quickly.
Overall, I think it depends less on the player and more on the times and comparing to the past is a bit fruitless. Certainly, we know the popularity of openings at the highest tier shift as weaknesses or improvements in lines are discovered. We also know that computers have completley changed the game when it comes to opening prep. We also know at these tournaments that there is very high level prep directed towards very specific opponents. And when you add all these factors together, the Sicilian has gone out of favour at least for the WC and Candidate tournaments and at least for the time being except as a surprise weapon or possibly must win scenarios.

I think the simple reality is players are looking for whatever little edge they can get and are willing to look at a variety of openings against specific opponents and are using engines to do this. Nakumura vs Liren is a great example of the modern day approach which likely woldln't have happened in a Candidates tournament 30 years ago.
Damn, I'm blown away by Nakamura's commentary. 2000-rated YouTube streamers can't do this.
US & FM (5% seed) | 300K Cash
User avatar
canadianbacon
Posts: 486
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:04 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by canadianbacon »

Looks like Hikaru is going to beat Fabi here. My new favorite timeline: Ian wins, Hikaru finishes second, Magnus declines to defend against Ian, Ian and Hikaru play for the championship, Hikaru wins and trolls Magnus until they play for all the marbles.
Bulls make money, bears make money, pigs get slaughtered.
Marseille07
Posts: 10103
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:41 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

Nakamura was leading by +5.5 at one point but now only by +1.8. It'd be a huge collapse should he fail to convert.
US & FM (5% seed) | 300K Cash
User avatar
canadianbacon
Posts: 486
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:04 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by canadianbacon »

Jan and Judit were pretty convinced Hikaru had blown it, but it looks like he is back in the driver's seat.
Bulls make money, bears make money, pigs get slaughtered.
Marseille07
Posts: 10103
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:41 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

Nakamura beat Caruana.

Caruana plays white against Nepomniachtchi tomorrow. Expect Caruana to pull a Rapport, declining every draw offer as Caruana pretty much has to beat Nepomniachtchi here.
US & FM (5% seed) | 300K Cash
Northern Flicker
Posts: 10760
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:29 am

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Northern Flicker »

Marseille07 wrote: Damn, I'm blown away by Nakamura's commentary. 2000-rated YouTube streamers can't do this.
Nakamura is a super GM providing commentary on a game he himself played using an opening novelty he had prepared and deeply analyzed at home. Why should a 2000-rated player be able to provide commentary that rivaled the depth and accuracy of Nakamura’s commentary? If they could, they would not be a 2000-rated player.
My postings are my opinion, and never should be construed as a recommendation to buy, sell, or hold any particular investment.
Marseille07
Posts: 10103
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:41 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

Northern Flicker wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:22 pm Nakamura is a super GM providing commentary on a game he himself played using an opening novelty he had prepared and deeply analyzed at home. Why should a 2000-rated player be able to provide commentary that rivaled the depth and accuracy of Nakamura’s commentary? If they could, they would not be a 2000-rated player.
I was blown away that's all. I wasn't aware he was doing this during the tournament because, well, he could use the time for more preparation I'm sure, but the analysis is of exceptional quality. I can't wait for the commentary on this Caruana game.
US & FM (5% seed) | 300K Cash
Northern Flicker
Posts: 10760
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:29 am

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Northern Flicker »

halfnine wrote: We also know that computers have completley changed the game when it comes to opening prep.
This is a key point. I think the concern with a sharp system like the Sicilian is walking into an opening novelty that was developed and analyzed with the aid of computers in home preparation, and not being able to find one’s way through the labyrinth over the board due to deep tactical points that may be less of a factor with a quieter system.
My postings are my opinion, and never should be construed as a recommendation to buy, sell, or hold any particular investment.
BamaGuy22
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:22 am

Re: Let's play chess

Post by BamaGuy22 »

Northern Flicker wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 1:13 pm Traditionally, amateur players in the US have tended to over-emphasize opening study and under-emphasize endgame study. I don’t know if that still is true today.
Still true, and probably will always be true because studying openings is way more interesting than end games to most people. I'd rather watch paint dry than practice king and pawn endgames or rook and pawn or whatever. I know that means I'll never be a strong player, and I'm cool with that.
gips
Posts: 1279
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 5:42 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by gips »

Northern Flicker wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:29 pm
halfnine wrote: We also know that computers have completley changed the game when it comes to opening prep.
This is a key point. I think the concern with a sharp system like the Sicilian is walking into an opening novelty that was developed and analyzed with the aid of computers in home preparation, and not being able to find one’s way through the labyrinth over the board due to deep tactical points that may be less of a factor with a quieter system.
playing a tournament in nyc 45 years ago, I lost a knight as black in the nadjorf. my opponent informed it was a known trap. It was move 22. I haven't played the nadjorf since thinking if the line was analyzed out to move 22 and beyond, I'd never be able to spend enough time to play it in a tournament and attend high school Can't imagine how today's players prep.
gips
Posts: 1279
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 5:42 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by gips »

I've posted before that I enjoy watching the coffee chess crew. Here's fm duck playing against master Alan, Duck scores a sublime win after a scintillating attack:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kph0f_bk_aQ
Post Reply