Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

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mptfan
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by mptfan »

Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:28 pm A third party is not subject to the agreement signed by the principals. If the state law gives the cause of action to the attorney in fact, the bank has no ability to invoke the arbitration clause. Nevertheless, the arbitrator will still rule in the customers favor.
To what third party are you referring?
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Lee_WSP
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by Lee_WSP »

mptfan wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:36 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:28 pm A third party is not subject to the agreement signed by the principals. If the state law gives the cause of action to the attorney in fact, the bank has no ability to invoke the arbitration clause. Nevertheless, the arbitrator will still rule in the customers favor.
To what third party are you referring?
The attorney in fact did not sign the contract.
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ResearchMed
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by ResearchMed »

Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:36 pm
mptfan wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:36 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:28 pm A third party is not subject to the agreement signed by the principals. If the state law gives the cause of action to the attorney in fact, the bank has no ability to invoke the arbitration clause. Nevertheless, the arbitrator will still rule in the customers favor.
To what third party are you referring?
The attorney in fact did not sign the contract.

IANAL, but the Agent is representing one of the principals.

IF this is correct, then this provides such easy work-arounds for any binding arbitration: Just designate someone with your POA authorization, and have them go at it for you. That can't be possible on such broad grounds... can it?

RM
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Lee_WSP
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by Lee_WSP »

ResearchMed wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:41 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:36 pm
mptfan wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:36 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:28 pm A third party is not subject to the agreement signed by the principals. If the state law gives the cause of action to the attorney in fact, the bank has no ability to invoke the arbitration clause. Nevertheless, the arbitrator will still rule in the customers favor.
To what third party are you referring?
The attorney in fact did not sign the contract.

IANAL, but the Agent is representing one of the principals.

IF this is correct, then this provides such easy work-arounds for any binding arbitration: Just designate someone with your POA authorization, and have them go at it for you. That can't be possible on such broad grounds... can it?

RM
The cause of action is the banks refusal to honor a power. The remedy is declaratory relief. The uniform act gives the agent statutory damages.

It has nothing to do with the depository agreement.
mptfan
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by mptfan »

Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:36 pm
mptfan wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:36 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:28 pm A third party is not subject to the agreement signed by the principals. If the state law gives the cause of action to the attorney in fact, the bank has no ability to invoke the arbitration clause. Nevertheless, the arbitrator will still rule in the customers favor.
To what third party are you referring?
The attorney in fact did not sign the contract.
An attorney in fact stands in the shoes of the principal, any agreement that applies to the principal also applies to the attorney in fact.
mptfan
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by mptfan »

Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:46 pm It has nothing to do with the depository agreement.
It has everything to do with the depository agreement.
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Lee_WSP
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by Lee_WSP »

mptfan wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:54 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:36 pm
mptfan wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:36 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:28 pm A third party is not subject to the agreement signed by the principals. If the state law gives the cause of action to the attorney in fact, the bank has no ability to invoke the arbitration clause. Nevertheless, the arbitrator will still rule in the customers favor.
To what third party are you referring?
The attorney in fact did not sign the contract.
An attorney in fact stands in the shoes of the principal, any agreement that applies to the principal also applies to the attorney in fact.
Only if the bank actually honored the poa.
mptfan
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by mptfan »

ResearchMed wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:41 pm IF this is correct, then this provides such easy work-arounds for any binding arbitration: Just designate someone with your POA authorization, and have them go at it for you. That can't be possible on such broad grounds... can it?
No, it cannot be possible.
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Lee_WSP
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by Lee_WSP »

mptfan wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:55 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:46 pm It has nothing to do with the depository agreement.
It has everything to do with the depository agreement.
The suit to enforce the law has nothing to do with the agreement. Please stop arguing.
mptfan
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by mptfan »

Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:55 pm Only if the bank actually honored the poa.
Not true, the attorney in fact always stands in the shoes of the principal. The attorney in fact can never have any rights that are independent of the principal.
mptfan
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by mptfan »

Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:57 pm
mptfan wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:55 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:46 pm It has nothing to do with the depository agreement.
It has everything to do with the depository agreement.
The suit to enforce the law has nothing to do with the agreement. Please stop arguing.
Yes, it does, it has everything to do with the agreement because the customer signed the agreement and agreed to mandatory binding arbitration that prevents a lawsuit from going forward.
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Lee_WSP
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by Lee_WSP »

mptfan wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:59 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:57 pm
mptfan wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:55 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:46 pm It has nothing to do with the depository agreement.
It has everything to do with the depository agreement.
The suit to enforce the law has nothing to do with the agreement. Please stop arguing.
Yes, it does, it has everything to do with the agreement because the customer signed the agreement and agreed to mandatory binding arbitration that prevents a lawsuit from going forward.
Please cite the case law.
Last edited by Lee_WSP on Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
mptfan
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by mptfan »

Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:01 pm Please cite the case law. Because this is civ pro 1 level nonsense.
It's not nonsense, it's the current state of the law. I don't think it's fair or right, but it is. And I've personally litigated this issue.
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Lee_WSP
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by Lee_WSP »

mptfan wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:03 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:01 pm Please cite the case law. Because this is civ pro 1 level nonsense.
It's not nonsense, it's the current state of the law. I don't think it's fair or right, but it is. And I've personally litigated this issue.
If your state doesn’t have the uniform power of attorney act, you are stuck. It’s never worth litigating it. If it does, it gives you a different cause of action.

In fact, without the uniform act, I’m not even sure what cause of action the agent has other than breach of contract which won’t go anywhere.
BSBHead
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by BSBHead »

For Wells Fargo, I provided the statute to them with my POA and it was blessed by their legal when I took over a family members account. POA rules can be state specific, but their forms are lowest common denominator.


quote=Lee_WSP post_id=6729291 time=1655328695 user_id=147765]
Luckywon wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 4:28 pm
Fremdon Ferndock wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 3:59 pm I'm concerned about my Vanguard accounts, since their POA form only lets you name one person as POA. What if I become incapacitated and then something happens to my POA and there are no contingent POAs?
Titling an account to a RLT (assuming this is not a retirement account) is one way to address succession of powers with more flexibility.
Not with Wells Fargo. Just saying.

edit: They routinely ignore trustee succession if that was unclear.
[/quote]
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Lee_WSP
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by Lee_WSP »

BSBHead wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:10 pm For Wells Fargo, I provided the statute to them with my POA and it was blessed by their legal when I took over a family members account. POA rules can be state specific, but their forms are lowest common denominator.


Having the statute enacted makes all the difference in the world. Even with Wells Fargo.
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