FULL Agent Authorization at Vanguard

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detachedaz
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FULL Agent Authorization at Vanguard

Post by detachedaz »

This thread is probably beyond the scope of this forum, but I'm throwing it out here for suggestions.

I have a FULL AA on file for my Aunt's account at VG (Non-Retirement). VG received a brand NEW FULL AA from my Aunt's POA, (My Aunt was recently hospitalized, but doing fine, and does NOT RECALL signing anything). The new AA DID NOT REVOKE MY NAME, so there are TWO FULL Agents on the account.

The POA depleted the entire account (via check) without my knowledge, other than I got an e-mail confirmation.

I called them to get a copy of the new AA to do a "signature match". They refused, saying that because it's a legal document, they would need my Aunt's authorization to release it, OR get a subpoena. Then I asked or a copy of MY Agent Auth and they said the same thing. I said, but yet you released all the funds without any knowledge to me.

Where do I start in order to get copies of both agent auth forms to compare signatures...Lawyers are SO expensive
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ResearchMed
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Re: FULL Agent Authorization at Vanguard

Post by ResearchMed »

detachedaz wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 10:00 am This thread is probably beyond the scope of this forum, but I'm throwing it out here for suggestions.

I have a FULL AA on file for my Aunt's account at VG (Non-Retirement). VG received a brand NEW FULL AA from my Aunt's POA, (My Aunt was recently hospitalized, but doing fine, and does NOT RECALL signing anything). The new AA DID NOT REVOKE MY NAME, so there are TWO FULL Agents on the account.

The POA depleted the entire account (via check) without my knowledge, other than I got an e-mail confirmation.

I called them to get a copy of the new AA to do a "signature match". They refused, saying that because it's a legal document, they would need my Aunt's authorization to release it, OR get a subpoena. Then I asked or a copy of MY Agent Auth and they said the same thing. I said, but yet you released all the funds without any knowledge to me.

Where do I start in order to get copies of both agent auth forms to compare signatures...Lawyers are SO expensive
That's not good. You got no notice in advance, such as when the other Agent was added?
Approximately how much money was it?

Your aunt is "doing fine" and Vanguard needs here authorization to release the other Authorization she allegedly signed (or yours)?
Can't you just ask her? If you don't want to upset her, just say you are doing due diligence to make sure that all of her papers are in order, etc.
Have her request state she wants to have (or wants you to have) copies of ALL Authorizations on her account(s).

Would that work?

Why would you need an attorney if she is available?

RM
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dbr
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Re: FULL Agent Authorization at Vanguard

Post by dbr »

I would think the best thing would be for your aunt to call Vanguard and find out who the other AA is while explaining that she has not in fact authorized anyone other than you. Someone presenting a POA while the granter denies that said POA is valid is a serious issue.

If this is difficult to do you could call Vanguard and advise them that the only POA your aunt thinks she has granted is you and see what they say about that. If they insist on talking to her, then you know what you need to do.
Steady59
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Re: FULL Agent Authorization at Vanguard

Post by Steady59 »

Was your Aunt's POA notarized?

Vanguard's support had degraded significantly. You are now in the hands of their CSR team, not a good place to be. You will get non answers or conflicting answers from different team members. You will be put on a "brief hold" to get more information. You may or may not get a call back in 24-48 hours if you ask for one if you send a secure email. You can try escalating to a manager for a scheduled call back but that did not work for me. Despite having an appointment, I received no call.

Keep the pressure on. Maybe get your Aunt on the phone with you when you next call Vanguard to find out who the second AA was issued to.
quietseas
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Re: FULL Agent Authorization at Vanguard

Post by quietseas »

Sounds like your aunt needs to file a police report also.
richard.h.gao
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Re: FULL Agent Authorization at Vanguard

Post by richard.h.gao »

Leave Vanguard ASAP. Move to IBKR, for this sort of thing it's a no brainer.

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Nate79
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Re: FULL Agent Authorization at Vanguard

Post by Nate79 »

richard.h.gao wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 2:27 pm Leave Vanguard ASAP. Move to IBKR, for this sort of thing it's a no brainer.

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https://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/a ... dvisor.php
Not sure what this has to do with the aunts money being stolen by a supposed POA.
richard.h.gao
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Re: FULL Agent Authorization at Vanguard

Post by richard.h.gao »

Nate79 wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 2:31 pm
richard.h.gao wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 2:27 pm Leave Vanguard ASAP. Move to IBKR, for this sort of thing it's a no brainer.

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Not sure what this has to do with the aunts money being stolen by a supposed POA.
As the master account holder none of this could happen without your knowledge.
tibbitts
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Re: FULL Agent Authorization at Vanguard

Post by tibbitts »

richard.h.gao wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 2:39 pm
Nate79 wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 2:31 pm
richard.h.gao wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 2:27 pm Leave Vanguard ASAP. Move to IBKR, for this sort of thing it's a no brainer.

Image

https://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/a ... dvisor.php
Not sure what this has to do with the aunts money being stolen by a supposed POA.
As the master account holder none of this could happen without your knowledge.
Maybe the OP is asking you why your suggestion to move the account matters since there is now a $0 account balance.
dbr
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Re: FULL Agent Authorization at Vanguard

Post by dbr »

Have you (your aunt) tried here:

Contact Vanguard immediately at 877-223-6977 or send an email to fraud@vanguard.com.

I am still confused what the people you talked to at Vanguard actually said when you told them someone your aunt says she did not authorize on the account has removed all the funds. If the response is that they can't discuss it without talking to your aunt then the action is to get her on the phone with them without delay.
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ResearchMed
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Re: FULL Agent Authorization at Vanguard

Post by ResearchMed »

dbr wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 3:00 pm Have you (your aunt) tried here:

Contact Vanguard immediately at 877-223-6977 or send an email to fraud@vanguard.com.

I am still confused what the people you talked to at Vanguard actually said when you told them someone your aunt says she did not authorize on the account has removed all the funds. If the response is that they can't discuss it without talking to your aunt then the action is to get her on the phone with them without delay.
The bit about how Vanguard wouldn't discuss it with you, a full PoA, is bewildering, the more I think about it. (But then... Vanguard and PoA docs/agents are... worrisome for other reasons, too.)

What if Aunt was no longer competent. WHO should deal with this in that instance?
:annoyed

Something is off, and not just the "second agent". Can there be two separate full agents? What if they disagree?
And the person is no longer able to deal with any of it. Or, like above, fraud.
Etc.

RM
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increment
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Re: FULL Agent Authorization at Vanguard

Post by increment »

ResearchMed wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 3:06 pm Something is off, and not just the "second agent". Can there be two separate full agents? What if they disagree?
The companies usually seem to handle this by deeming it "not their problem."

The Vanguard Full Agent Authorization form that I submitted last year warns, "If you're naming more than one agent, copy this section for each agent to complete, sign, and mail with this document. Once we process this authorization, we'll require the signature of only one of the agents on written transaction requests unless you notify us otherwise in writing. Phone and online requests can be made by any one of the agents."
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celia
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Re: FULL Agent Authorization at Vanguard

Post by celia »

The first step is to talk to the aunt. See what she wants. Is she aware that money was withdrawn?

Maybe she now wants the other person to be in charge. Or maybe she wants you in charge. Or maybe she wants both of you to take care of separate things. Or maybe she doesn’t want either of you touching her assets.

You won’t know unless you talk to her. An in-person visit might be best, to see if she is being influenced by anyone or anything.

The next step is to help implement what SHE wants. Vanguard will likely need to hear from her what she wants.
richard.h.gao
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Re: FULL Agent Authorization at Vanguard

Post by richard.h.gao »

tibbitts wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 2:50 pm
richard.h.gao wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 2:39 pm
Nate79 wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 2:31 pm
richard.h.gao wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 2:27 pm Leave Vanguard ASAP. Move to IBKR, for this sort of thing it's a no brainer.

Image

https://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/a ... dvisor.php
Not sure what this has to do with the aunts money being stolen by a supposed POA.
As the master account holder none of this could happen without your knowledge.
Maybe the OP is asking you why your suggestion to move the account matters since there is now a $0 account balance.
It's a warning for others that are still at Vanguard. These are informative public forums to share information not private messages.
mkc
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Re: FULL Agent Authorization at Vanguard

Post by mkc »

detachedaz wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 10:00 am This thread is probably beyond the scope of this forum, but I'm throwing it out here for suggestions.

I have a FULL AA on file for my Aunt's account at VG (Non-Retirement). VG received a brand NEW FULL AA from my Aunt's POA, (My Aunt was recently hospitalized, but doing fine, and does NOT RECALL signing anything). The new AA DID NOT REVOKE MY NAME, so there are TWO FULL Agents on the account.
#1, Vanguard's Full Agent Authorization form needs to be notarized. Your aunt's signature would have had to be notarized for VG to accept it.

#2, VG does not accept a "POA" document to grant full authorization, so just having a POA won't do it UNLESS it is Agent for an Incapacitated Person, in which case a signed physician's letter is required.
quietseas wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 1:31 pm Sounds like your aunt needs to file a police report also.
^ This ^ if she suspects identity theft or scam artist
quietseas
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Re: FULL Agent Authorization at Vanguard

Post by quietseas »

mkc wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 4:44 pm
quietseas wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 1:31 pm Sounds like your aunt needs to file a police report also.
^ This ^ if she suspects identity theft or scam artist
Or a trusted family member who took advantage of her situation.
If it was a hospital employee (very unlikely) it really needs to be investigated.

Any financial institution is going to do more in a situation like this if there's a crime not a misunderstanding or family feud.
dbr
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Re: FULL Agent Authorization at Vanguard

Post by dbr »

quietseas wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 5:06 pm
mkc wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 4:44 pm
quietseas wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 1:31 pm Sounds like your aunt needs to file a police report also.
^ This ^ if she suspects identity theft or scam artist
Or a trusted family member who took advantage of her situation.
If it was a hospital employee (very unlikely) it really needs to be investigated.

Any financial institution is going to do more in a situation like this if there's a crime not a misunderstanding or family feud.
Yes, the fact the account has been drained is highly suspicious and one should err on the side of aggressive presumption that a crime has been committed here. But I am still puzzled regarding what the aunt knows about this. In any case Vanguard can't be let off the hook taking notice of what might have happened here.
drzzzzz
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Re: FULL Agent Authorization at Vanguard

Post by drzzzzz »

A few thoughts and none of them might be appropriate or helpful - nowadays it is not uncommon to be able to become a full agent by completing a form using account online forms and electronic signatures (rather than the traditional method of printing something up, signing it, and then mailing it in) - do you know if this was done online with electronic signatures? As I recall either with Vanguard or Fidelity you can do it that way and then an email is sent to that person being designated as the full agent to log onto their account to accept being named a full agent - sometimes there are some additional security checks done that the full agent needs to anser such as where they used to live, car they drove, social security numbers, etc. (we did this recently with a family member at Fidelity and since we both had accounts it was all done electronically and by answering "security questions".


I would think if you look into Vanguard messages online there should be information there about any communications that Vanguard might have sent by mail or electronically to the account. You should also be able to see in her account how to add/delete account access for full agent authorization and by going to that area you might find additional information about who is signed up as the full agent, when, how, etc. How was a check written/distributed using a check from Vanguard or one written by the full agent on the acount? It also sounds like someone else has possible access to the acount and maybe you should also consider changing passwords/etc.
mkc
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Re: FULL Agent Authorization at Vanguard

Post by mkc »

drzzzzz wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 7:08 pm A few thoughts and none of them might be appropriate or helpful - nowadays it is not uncommon to be able to become a full agent by completing a form using account online forms and electronic signatures (rather than the traditional method of printing something up, signing it, and then mailing it in) - do you know if this was done online with electronic signatures? As I recall either with Vanguard or Fidelity you can do it that way and then an email is sent to that person being designated as the full agent to log onto their account to accept being named a full agent
Neither Vanguard nor Fidelity permit FULL agent authorization online. Both require notarized forms. Have been through both fairly recently.
drzzzzz
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Re: FULL Agent Authorization at Vanguard

Post by drzzzzz »

mkc wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 9:21 pm
drzzzzz wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 7:08 pm A few thoughts and none of them might be appropriate or helpful - nowadays it is not uncommon to be able to become a full agent by completing a form using account online forms and electronic signatures (rather than the traditional method of printing something up, signing it, and then mailing it in) - do you know if this was done online with electronic signatures? As I recall either with Vanguard or Fidelity you can do it that way and then an email is sent to that person being designated as the full agent to log onto their account to accept being named a full agent
Neither Vanguard nor Fidelity permit FULL agent authorization online. Both require notarized forms. Have been through both fairly recently.

Maybe we are talking about different types of authorization, but Fidelity has this on their website and this is how we did it about two weeks ago - all online.

Per the Fidelity website
What is full authority?
Granting full account access to another person allows them to make inquiries, place orders, make tax elections, withdraw funds, and initiate rollovers, recharacterizations, and Roth conversions on your account.

And the process is the following per their website

What do I need to know?
In addition to your Fidelity account number, you'll need to provide this information for the person you're giving full authority:

Name and address
Social Security or taxpayer ID number
Date of birth
Relationship to account owner
Email address
Citizenship status
Associations with brokerage firms
If the person is already a Fidelity customer
Annual income to determine suitability
What to expect
After you complete the online steps, you'll need to read and agree to the terms of the Account Authority Customer Agreement.

Under Signature Options, determine how you want to provide the required signatures. Your choices are:

Sign electronically – all required signers will receive an email with instructions on how to complete the form.
Print, sign, scan, and attach – after you get the required signatures, you can send the form to us online.
Print, sign, and mail – send your completed and signed form through the U.S. Mail.
Note: If you print the form, you'll need to get your signature guaranteed and you’ll also need the authorized agent to sign the form.

It appears if you print the form, you need to get a signature guarantee, but if you do it electronically with the other information, you do not

I also am aware that revocable trusts need the forms printed and medallion signature or verification of the individuals at the Fidelity office.
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