Being Frugal

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
getthatmarshmallow
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by getthatmarshmallow »

Jazztonight wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 5:15 pm
getthatmarshmallow wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 9:10 am Divorce is more expensive than kids' clothing.
(While perhaps you're speaking half in-jest, here's my response):

In the short run, my own divorce was life-changingly expensive, and left me with virtually nothing.

In the long run, it allowed me to take control of my life and spending decisions, send my children to college, and live sensibly. It also prepared me for my second marriage, which (40+ years later) bears witness to the fact that sometimes divorce is often the best way to go.

Just saying.

Now, back to the topic.
No doubt! I was speaking tongue in cheek, aiming at the distinction between being cheap and being frugal.

In isolation driving an old car and wearing old clothes is fine. Having used kids' clothes is also fine. (I do all these things, though less with the kids lately.) But if the family isn't fine with it it suggests incompatible values (as in your case) or that one's frugality has wandered into hoarding.
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Jazztonight
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by Jazztonight »

stoptothink wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 5:26 pm
Jazztonight wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 5:15 pm
getthatmarshmallow wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 9:10 am Divorce is more expensive than kids' clothing.
(While perhaps you're speaking half in-jest, here's my response):

In the short run, my own divorce was life-changingly expensive, and left me with virtually nothing.

In the long run, it allowed me to take control of my life and spending decisions, send my children to college, and live sensibly. It also prepared me for my second marriage, which (40+ years later) bears witness to the fact that sometimes divorce is often the best way to go.

Just saying.

Now, back to the topic.
Exact same experience. It completely financially ruined me after nearly a decade of working hard, living like a pauper, and saving everything I could. BUT, I was 30 with ample time to recover. A decade later it was so worth it, in every way (including financially). At this point, a divorce is both the most expensive thing I've ever paid for and probably the best thing I've ever spent money on (from a happiness/QOL standpoint).
+1 (and Amen) to that.
"What does not destroy me, makes me stronger." Nietzsche
Tundrama
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by Tundrama »

mmmodem wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 9:11 am
BHInvestor wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:46 pmSometimes I feel alienated due to my frugal decisions however I feel sometimes guilty with the decisions made for my wife/kids. I'm sure that my family will be in a much better position than we are currently however it is going to take time. I'm checking in with my fellow BogleHeads if this is something normal.
The honest answer? Don't. Don't feel guilty. I don't. Many helpful replies here identify cheap versus frugal. Agreed, there's a big difference. Me? I just don't care. My cheapness and frugality bought my family our financial security. I grew up poor where being frugal was not enough, you had to go way past it to cheap just to survive. It was not a choice. It was a necessity.

So how do I handle it? When we discuss buying a particular thing, my wife may tell me I'm being cheap and to stop. I stop. I don't feel guilty. I take it to the extreme and she is my gate. If she is not there then I will maintain cheapness and I am perfectly fine with it. I don't know if it is BH normal but again... I don't care. I make fun of family for wasting money on their Teslas and overseas vacation. They in turn make fun of my 13 year old vehicle and free swag t-shirts I get from conventions. Feel confident in what you do. Good luck, OP.
ki

Gosh, I feel like I can come out of the closet. You nailed it…thanks for that!

I would like to add one other explanation/concept. While some folks think frugal/cheap or however you quantify low dollar spending habits, as a negative thing, I offer this as a possible explanation:

There is a very powerful peacefulness and contentment with being satisfied with what “Appears” to be a lower standard or subhuman condition a person resides within. Let me be excruciatingly clear, there is peace, harmony and happiness that resides with having ‘enough’…no matter how you as the Viewer place your perceptions upon my choices.

Happiness and contentment for me are buried within “simplicity and discomfort.” I don’t know why but it’s true for me, I love both and excel within their parameters.

A drawer full of tee shirts, blue jeans, those long white Sox my kids hate, and some undees are all I need for my main wardrobe. Of course I have wedding reception and funeral cloths, well, one set. I could live in an old conex or sleep under a spruce tree in a swamp and I’m completely satisfied. I own a very simple fishing boat with no cabin on it. I want to be cold and wet and feel the true parts of life that the luxuries of today’s world have sheltered from us. I have a nice truck but I also have an old POS minivan. I love a good beer but having a beer on Friday night has always been more special than a beer every night of the week. It is within discomfort, that comfort becomes meaningful.

I feel so blessed to have this mindset. I have friends and relatives who can’t camp with their wives because only a hotel room will do. They have money coming out of their ass and can purchase the best of everything they want and yet many are miserable. The most financially secure people I know are some of the most insecure people I know…who would have thought?

Of course for the sake of balance and maintaining good relations with wives and family members, I error on the side of their needs and wants. And believe me, if wifee wants it after discussing, she buys it. Buy the kids great clothes and please don’t make them suffer ridicule in school. But when my wonderful wifee is chiding me to go buy some new boots when I’m wearing old ripped sneakers working in the mud and rain and I can’t feel the discomfort or cold, I realize I’m truly a lucky man! …and the Smiths and Jones can all kiss my ass because if I scaled happiness among everyone I know or have known, those with less are consistently happier than those flaunting all the crap They own that no one else gives a rats ass about. Ask any priest, divorce attorney, financial advisor or marriage counselor about their clients and they will confirm my words.

Happiness occurs when reaching your satisfaction and contentment with regards to how you dress, what you drive, the square feet of your home, etc.

Bottom line, “frugal and cheap” may be an outsider’s assessment of a person’s lifestyle, purchases, and the items they surround themselves with. But the truth may simply be the person has fulfilled their specific need and happiness and contentment have been achieved…
Monsterflockster
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by Monsterflockster »

IME the key is to make purposeful purchases. Purchasing something of high quality that will last, that you use to better your life is key.

Drive a lot? Maybe a Tesla makes sense.
Love mountain biking? Buy that nice bike and get out there more often and ride and improve your health.
Run a lot? Be sure to get the right shoes and replace them often so you save yourself from injury.
Love movies? Get that nice TV and sound system to go with it.

Life is short. Enjoy the things you enjoy.
Ependytis
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by Ependytis »

Since I haven't seen anybody say the following, I'll put my two cents in. I look at being frugal in different terms. To me, it means eliminating waste and has nothing to do with being cheap.

The following are examples of waste.

1. Having a four-wheel-drive vehicle when 90% of people never use the four-wheel-drive feature.
2. Credit card interest.
3. Life insurance when your kids and SO can make it on our accumulated saving.
4. Having a full service broker when you can do it yourself.
5. Paying a premium for managed funds that don't consistently outperform their index.
6. Having a land based phone and a cell phone.

Over the last 25 years, I have tried to eliminate waste without compromising our lifestyle. I set a goal of eliminating $50 per month or $600 a year. Shockingly, I've been able to come up with this figure and more year after year. Sure, it was easier at the beginning, and it's definitely getting more difficult now.
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Godot
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by Godot »

BHInvestor wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:46 pm Sometimes I feel alienated due to my frugal decisions however I feel sometimes guilty with the decisions made for my wife/kids. I'm sure that my family will be in a much better position than we are currently however it is going to take time. I'm checking in with my fellow BogleHeads if this is something normal.
Why do you care if what you are doing is seen as "normal"? Will you change your behavior if 54% of BHers say "Yes it is normal" or "No, this is absurd"? From whom do you feel alienated?
"The day you die is just like any other, only shorter." | ― Samuel Beckett
stoptothink
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by stoptothink »

Godot wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 11:38 am
BHInvestor wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:46 pm Sometimes I feel alienated due to my frugal decisions however I feel sometimes guilty with the decisions made for my wife/kids. I'm sure that my family will be in a much better position than we are currently however it is going to take time. I'm checking in with my fellow BogleHeads if this is something normal.
Why do you care if what you are doing is seen as "normal"? Will you change your behavior if 54% of BHers say "Yes it is normal" or "No, this is absurd"? From whom do you feel alienated?
+1 Taking care of your body (and many other "healthy" habits) is also considered "abnormal" by huge swaths of the population. The sooner you stop caring about what others think - more importantly, what you think they think (because most people don't actually care) - the better off you will be.
Wannaretireearly
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by Wannaretireearly »

a cheap man pays twice - great comment upstream!
I know folks who are more cheap than frugal. Not paying for quality and/or delaying critical purchases for life improvement, that they can afford easily (theirs or their family).

I'm trending towards being 'spendy' - luckily fly by Klangs rules, and try to save 1X expenses/year. I also feel age and time in life matters too.
e.g. while currently working we really look forward to vacations (and end up spending 'too much' but within means. I feel like i'll automatically reduce some of the 'excess' spending when I'm not working/in retirement. i.e. i was frugal 20 years ago, more spendy last 10 years, but believe I'll be more frugal in my 50s/60s --> careful spending on what i enjoy on a fixed/retirement budget.

Again following Klang, ensuring the big decisions are not financially crippling are key (Housing, College, Cars).
A friend bought a used $60K+ Tesla as a second car. To me that is bordering on excessive/spendy especially as they will struggle to buy a house in our VHCOL. I would say thats not frugal. YMMV.
“At some point you are trading time you will never get back for money you will never spend.“ | “How do you want to spend the best remaining year of your life?“
sandan
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by sandan »

I feel bad for the OP. I relate and enjoy frugality just like I enjoy working out.

I've found that anyone trying to guilt trip me into buying a more expensive but crappier golf club, car, etc. are people I won't maintain long term relationships with.
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by iamblessed »

My father raised me to be frugal. I am grateful I retired at 38.
Wanderingwheelz
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by Wanderingwheelz »

Frugality/cheapness is often simply a manifestation of anxiety about the future.

If you’re the type of person who feels alienated or otherwise bothered by your desire to save pennies at the expense of other people that you are close to in your life, then perhaps it’s time to address your anxiety and also perhaps the general distrust that things will work out in the future.

Last weekend I had a long discussion with a person I’ve known my entire life. This person is frugal for sure, and often can be cheap. Exemplified by the fact that during this conversation in his home he was wearing a shirt had holes in the elbows. This person is also a very anxious person and I’d generally not trustful that things will work out just fine in the future, which is a shame. During the course of the conversation this person revealed to me that their net worth is in the range of $12MM while having retired from a job that never paid much more than $100k. I definitely detected some regret for not having been more free with his spending, since what is left over has ended up being just another source of anxiety and stress- often overwhelmingly so. Never underestimate how much your money is going to stress you out when you’re old.

So, somewhat perversely, the frugality and cheapness that helped relieve anxiety earlier in life, can come around to cause more of it later in life, largely due to having failed to spend more and be more generous. I guess what I’m saying is it might be a Good idea to leave a 25-30% tip, even if it leaves you feeling anxious.
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smitcat
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by smitcat »

Wanderingwheelz wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 1:00 pm Frugality/cheapness is often simply a manifestation of anxiety about the future.

If you’re the type of person who feels alienated or otherwise bothered by your desire to save pennies at the expense of other people that you are close to in your life, then perhaps it’s time to address your anxiety and also perhaps the general distrust that things will work out in the future.

Last weekend I had a long discussion with a person I’ve known my entire life. This person is frugal for sure, and often can be cheap. Exemplified by the fact that during this conversation in his home he was wearing a shirt had holes in the elbows. This person is also a very anxious person and I’d generally not trustful that things will work out just fine in the future, which is a shame. During the course of the conversation this person revealed to me that their net worth is in the range of $12MM while having retired from a job that never paid much more than $100k. I definitely detected some regret for not having been more free with his spending, since what is left over has ended up being just another source of anxiety and stress- often overwhelmingly so. Never underestimate how much your money is going to stress you out when you’re old.

So, somewhat perversely, the frugality and cheapness that helped relieve anxiety earlier in life, can come around to cause more of it later in life, largely due to having failed to spend more and be more generous. I guess what I’m saying is it might be a Good idea to leave a 25-30% tip, even if it leaves you feeling anxious.
"So, somewhat perversely, the frugality and cheapness that helped relieve anxiety earlier in life, can come around to cause more of it later in life, largely due to having failed to spend more and be more generous."
Very observant and a problem we have seen plenty of lately.....
Bud
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by Bud »

BHInvestor wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:46 pm Hey Folks, I have been a long time lurker in this forum. As I have learnt more (in this forum), I have understood the essence of living below ones means and cutting down on non-essential stuff. In the last 2 - 3 years, my salary has grown significantly higher however being frugal is something that I have started to accept as my way of life. I'm constantly looking for cheaper alternatives (including used apparels for my kids) and sometimes my dad/wife feel that I'm being overly stingy. I love my 10yr car more than ever and my outfit has been reduced to just a handful of shorts and T-shirts. Sometimes I feel alienated due to my frugal decisions however I feel sometimes guilty with the decisions made for my wife/kids. I'm sure that my family will be in a much better position than we are currently however it is going to take time. I'm checking in with my fellow BogleHeads if this is something normal.
Yes, it is normal. Don't worry about what others think - finances is a journey and many people do not understand LBYM. It is important to include your spouse and make sure they understand why you make the choices you do and why it is important for your family. This can be difficult to articulate, especially at the beginning, when you are figuring out how to explain things yourself.

My kids don't care about frugality and never talk about what they 'miss'. We have learned to enjoy life with free or almost free things - hiking, bike riding, shopping at garage sales, bike riding, and dozens of other inexpensive alternatives. All four of my kids have taken on our frugal lifestyle and they are grateful they have learned to live, not based on what culture says they should buy to be satisfied, but by discerning their needs within their financial framework.

All the best.
RoadThunder
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by RoadThunder »

ponyboy wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 1:17 pm Frugal and cheap are the same thing. Im both frugal and cheap, I know from experience.
100% incorrect- sometimes the more expensive “thing” may in fact be more frugal long run do to reliability and performance. I’m car person, and found it cost me more to be “cheap” than frugal.
RoadThunder
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by RoadThunder »

Wanderingwheelz wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 1:00 pm Frugality/cheapness is often simply a manifestation of anxiety about the future.

If you’re the type of person who feels alienated or otherwise bothered by your desire to save pennies at the expense of other people that you are close to in your life, then perhaps it’s time to address your anxiety and also perhaps the general distrust that things will work out in the future.

Last weekend I had a long discussion with a person I’ve known my entire life. This person is frugal for sure, and often can be cheap. Exemplified by the fact that during this conversation in his home he was wearing a shirt had holes in the elbows. This person is also a very anxious person and I’d generally not trustful that things will work out just fine in the future, which is a shame. During the course of the conversation this person revealed to me that their net worth is in the range of $12MM while having retired from a job that never paid much more than $100k. I definitely detected some regret for not having been more free with his spending, since what is left over has ended up being just another source of anxiety and stress- often overwhelmingly so. Never underestimate how much your money is going to stress you out when you’re old.

So, somewhat perversely, the frugality and cheapness that helped relieve anxiety earlier in life, can come around to cause more of it later in life, largely due to having failed to spend more and be more generous. I guess what I’m saying is it might be a Good idea to leave a 25-30% tip, even if it leaves you feeling anxious.
Unfortunately your friend failed to read the second half of the book of life; its progressive.
sschoe2
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by sschoe2 »

Wanderingwheelz wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 1:00 pm Frugality/cheapness is often simply a manifestation of anxiety about the future.

If you’re the type of person who feels alienated or otherwise bothered by your desire to save pennies at the expense of other people that you are close to in your life, then perhaps it’s time to address your anxiety and also perhaps the general distrust that things will work out in the future.
There is definitely truth in this.

After graduating with my (awful) MS in chemistry and spending 8 months unemployed, 3 years working a terrible job in my profession without PTO nor health insurance I resolved to build up as many assets as quickly as I can to the point I view excess spending as a literal threat to my survival. I have had a pretty good job for a while now but still feel insecure about my employment future and feel more comfort in having my own financial safety net than in material things.
sandan
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by sandan »

Wanderingwheelz wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 1:00 pm Frugality/cheapness is often simply a manifestation of anxiety about the future.
That is "often" incorrect as well. Many people with uncertain futures take on expensive habits such as gambling excessively, smoking, binge drinking, and taking on aggressive behaviors. There is also a big difference between being cheapness and being frugality.

To provide some balance on frugality, I am sharing a quote I read today.

"-Do not educate your children to be rich. Educate them to be happy. – So when they grow up they will know the value of things, not the price."
Broken Man 1999
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by Broken Man 1999 »

sandan wrote:
Do not educate your children to be rich. Educate them to be happy. – So when they grow up they will know the value of things, not the price."

It is possible to be rich AND happy!

Broken Maan 1999
“If I cannot drink Bourbon and smoke cigars in Heaven then I shall not go." - Mark Twain
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BrooklynInvest
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by BrooklynInvest »

RedDog wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:07 am
DW and I have been together for 34 years and raised three wonder now adult children. My natural inclination was to pinch pennies/save but my wife was right to insist on spending money to travel
Ditto. My wife was a very positive influence in this regard. I was living below - well below - my means. We took vacations where I had to shut off my "can we do it cheaper" response and my lesson was that the difference was money very well spent. Not wasteful, but we used guides, stayed and nice places with a ton of character and ate very well. Not always at fancy and expensive places but when it was that time we did it with aplomb.

We've got a little one now and it may be some time before we get back to, say, Rome so having experienced it to the fullest brings back very fond memories... I remember the breakfasts in the courtyard of our swanky hotel and the wine in the lobby and I've completely forgotten how much the room cost ;-)
KlangFool
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by KlangFool »

sandan wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 9:57 am
To provide some balance on frugality, I am sharing a quote I read today.

"-Do not educate your children to be rich. Educate them to be happy. – So when they grow up they will know the value of things, not the price."
sandan,

You only need one word to be happy.

Enough.

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Sandtrap
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by Sandtrap »

Jazztonight wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 7:14 pm
stoptothink wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 5:26 pm
Jazztonight wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 5:15 pm
getthatmarshmallow wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 9:10 am Divorce is more expensive than kids' clothing.
(While perhaps you're speaking half in-jest, here's my response):

In the short run, my own divorce was life-changingly expensive, and left me with virtually nothing.

In the long run, it allowed me to take control of my life and spending decisions, send my children to college, and live sensibly. It also prepared me for my second marriage, which (40+ years later) bears witness to the fact that sometimes divorce is often the best way to go.

Just saying.

Now, back to the topic.
Exact same experience. It completely financially ruined me after nearly a decade of working hard, living like a pauper, and saving everything I could. BUT, I was 30 with ample time to recover. A decade later it was so worth it, in every way (including financially). At this point, a divorce is both the most expensive thing I've ever paid for and probably the best thing I've ever spent money on (from a happiness/QOL standpoint).
+1 (and Amen) to that.
+10000
"aman". . . .

Frugality comes in many forms and cycles. .. . .
Take care my friend.
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Sandtrap
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by Sandtrap »

sandan wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 9:57 am
Wanderingwheelz wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 1:00 pm Frugality/cheapness is often simply a manifestation of anxiety about the future.
That is "often" incorrect as well. Many people with uncertain futures take on expensive habits such as gambling excessively, smoking, binge drinking, and taking on aggressive behaviors. There is also a big difference between being cheapness and being frugality.

To provide some balance on frugality, I am sharing a quote I read today.

"-Do not educate your children to be rich. Educate them to be happy. – So when they grow up they will know the value of things, not the price."
Great points.
Well said
so true. . . .

godan
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Sandtrap
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by Sandtrap »

Jazztonight wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 5:15 pm
getthatmarshmallow wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 9:10 am Divorce is more expensive than kids' clothing.
(While perhaps you're speaking half in-jest, here's my response):

In the short run, my own divorce was life-changingly expensive, and left me with virtually nothing.

In the long run, it allowed me to take control of my life and spending decisions, send my children to college, and live sensibly. It also prepared me for my second marriage, which (40+ years later) bears witness to the fact that sometimes divorce is often the best way to go.

Just saying.

Now, back to the topic.
Well said
A familiar path to many, including myself, with similar lessons. . . . but different for everyone, certainly.

Thanks for posting and sharing this. Lessons for some, advice for others, and so forth. . . . everyone is different.
j mango :D :D
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sandan
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by sandan »

Broken Man 1999 wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 10:48 am sandan wrote:
Do not educate your children to be rich. Educate them to be happy. – So when they grow up they will know the value of things, not the price."

It is possible to be rich AND happy!

Broken Maan 1999
Absolutely. If wealth doesn't make someone happy, they always have the option of giving it away.
tunafish
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by tunafish »

Ependytis wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 3:54 pm Since I haven't seen anybody say the following, I'll put my two cents in. I look at being frugal in different terms. To me, it means eliminating waste and has nothing to do with being cheap.

The following are examples of waste.

1. Having a four-wheel-drive vehicle when 90% of people never use the four-wheel-drive feature.
2. Credit card interest.
3. Life insurance when your kids and SO can make it on our accumulated saving.
4. Having a full service broker when you can do it yourself.
5. Paying a premium for managed funds that don't consistently outperform their index.
6. Having a land based phone and a cell phone.

Over the last 25 years, I have tried to eliminate waste without compromising our lifestyle. I set a goal of eliminating $50 per month or $600 a year. Shockingly, I've been able to come up with this figure and more year after year. Sure, it was easier at the beginning, and it's definitely getting more difficult now.
Landlines generally work during disasters. Cell phones usually don't.

As an older person not wanting to wear some thing around my neck all the time, I would like a phone in every room. Landline extensions can do this. Now I have to fork out for several cell phones.
mhalley
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by mhalley »

Perhaps you could add "fun" as a category in your ips. Take a reasonable number, say 10% of income if you are doing really well, and use it for vacations, concerts, man toys, wife splurges, etc.
I have another suggestion. Listen to Rahit Sethi's podcast I Will Teach You to Be Rich I haven't actually read his book, but it might be worth checking out.
He counsels couples who are having money disagreements. He talks about living a "rich life" and how to figure out what that is. Your family might not be living their rich life with your excess frugality. For example, there was one couple with a net worth of 5 million dollars and the wife thought about cancelling a trip over $200.00
Money is made for spending: Everyone talks about how to save money, but almost no one teaches you how to spend. Our philosophy is simple: spend extravagantly on the things you love, and cut costs mercilessly on the things you don’t.
Last edited by mhalley on Tue May 24, 2022 4:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
delamer
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by delamer »

Apparently the OP logged into the forum on May 19, but didn’t see fit to comment on any of the suggestions posted.

I’m out.
One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not. - Alexandre Dumas, fils
Firefly80
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by Firefly80 »

Wanderingwheelz wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 1:00 pm
Last weekend I had a long discussion with a person I’ve known my entire life. This person is frugal for sure, and often can be cheap. During the course of the conversation this person revealed to me that their net worth is in the range of $12MM while having retired from a job that never paid much more than $100k.

$12MM on 100k Salary?

Not sure if this is possible unless there was a significant Windfall involved, individual Stock picking, or some other highly profitable side Business.
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

mhalley wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 4:13 pm Perhaps you could add "fun" as a category in your ips. Take a reasonable number, say 10% of income if you are doing really well, and use it for vacations, concerts, man toys, wife splurges, etc.
I have another suggestion. Listen to Rahit Sethi's podcast I Will Teach You to Be Rich I haven't actually read his book, but it might be worth checking out.
He counsels couples who are having money disagreements. He talks about living a "rich life" and how to figure out what that is. Your family might not be living their rich life with your excess frugality. For example, there was one couple with a net worth of 5 million dollars and the wife thought about cancelling a trip over $200.00
Money is made for spending: Everyone talks about how to save money, but almost no one teaches you how to spend. Our philosophy is simple: spend extravagantly on the things you love, and cut costs mercilessly on the things you don’t.
Sethi is extremely interesting. The podcast about how couples deal with money problems at all income levels is worth a listen for sure.
Last edited by AnnetteLouisan on Wed May 25, 2022 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by Wannaretireearly »

AnnetteLouisan wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 6:30 pm
mhalley wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 4:13 pm Perhaps you could add "fun" as a category in your ips. Take a reasonable number, say 10% of income if you are doing really well, and use it for vacations, concerts, man toys, wife splurges, etc.
I have another suggestion. Listen to Rahit Sethi's podcast I Will Teach You to Be Rich I haven't actually read his book, but it might be worth checking out.
He counsels couples who are having money disagreements. He talks about living a "rich life" and how to figure out what that is. Your family might not be living their rich life with your excess frugality. For example, there was one couple with a net worth of 5 million dollars and the wife thought about cancelling a trip over $200.00
Money is made for spending: Everyone talks about how to save money, but almost no one teaches you how to spend. Our philosophy is simple: spend extravagantly on the things you love, and cut costs mercilessly on the things you don’t.
Sethi is extremely interesting. Worth a listen for sure.
Followed Ramit when he had a newsletter 10+ years ago? I’m intrigued by his new money making schemes ;) I’ll have to find him on youtube!
“At some point you are trading time you will never get back for money you will never spend.“ | “How do you want to spend the best remaining year of your life?“
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by Wanderingwheelz »

Firefly80 wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 5:03 pm
Wanderingwheelz wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 1:00 pm
Last weekend I had a long discussion with a person I’ve known my entire life. This person is frugal for sure, and often can be cheap. During the course of the conversation this person revealed to me that their net worth is in the range of $12MM while having retired from a job that never paid much more than $100k.

$12MM on 100k Salary?

Not sure if this is possible unless there was a significant Windfall involved, individual Stock picking, or some other highly profitable side Business.
That’s accurate. There was a second income, though smaller.

Also about 25% of the $12MM is in the form of an inherited property. It was a $500,000 property when it was inherited about 22 years ago, and now it’s worth about 5x that.
Being wrong compounds forever.
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by Jags4186 »

Firefly80 wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 5:03 pm
Wanderingwheelz wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 1:00 pm
Last weekend I had a long discussion with a person I’ve known my entire life. This person is frugal for sure, and often can be cheap. During the course of the conversation this person revealed to me that their net worth is in the range of $12MM while having retired from a job that never paid much more than $100k.

$12MM on 100k Salary?

Not sure if this is possible unless there was a significant Windfall involved, individual Stock picking, or some other highly profitable side Business.
Zuckerberg only has a $1 salary and has $50bn.
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by Broken Man 1999 »

bengal22 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 10:48 am I don't believe being a successful bogleheads equates to living a frugal life or living "below" my means. For me executing a good financial plan has enabled me to live a life with new cars, nice houses, and other perks. I prefer to think of it as living "within" my means.
+1!

The problem with living below your means is that there is no answer to how low below your means is correct. And, honestly I believe some BHs are living a financial life that will make it hard for them to really enjoy the Benjamins they have managed to stack up for retirement.

OTOH, living within your means gives you a limit. It means you have the important things covered, such as your future retirement needs, perhaps college for your children, whatever is important to you.

DW and I lived "paycheck to paycheck" for much of our careers. We paid ourselves first, we never worried about retirement, our retirements were being funded automatically. Often our mortgages were paid directly from our paychecks, auto loans when we had them were paid the same way.

By the time we received our paychecks we had a few small bills left, after those were paid we knew whatever was left could be spent on discretionary items.

So we spent to the limit that was placed on us, in that if we were using credit card debt we were not living within our means.

I preferred maximum responsible spending. Money is just a tool, but I believe some are money's servant, instead of being money's master.

Broken Man 1999
“If I cannot drink Bourbon and smoke cigars in Heaven then I shall not go." - Mark Twain
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

People who use terms like “cheap” or “greedy” raise red flags with me. Each of us spends in the way that best meets our budget, income, circumstances, needs and wants. Being around high spenders and spending for status is why I’m on this forum in the first place, trying to catch up in middle age. I no longer associate with people who feel a need to tell me how to spend my own money - and it’s so much more serene of an existence. There are things I don’t spend on that others value, and there are thing that I value and spend on that others don’t. That’s why the term used for people is individual.
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by cs412a »

Wanderingwheelz wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 1:00 pm Frugality/cheapness is often simply a manifestation of anxiety about the future.

If you’re the type of person who feels alienated or otherwise bothered by your desire to save pennies at the expense of other people that you are close to in your life, then perhaps it’s time to address your anxiety and also perhaps the general distrust that things will work out in the future.

Last weekend I had a long discussion with a person I’ve known my entire life. This person is frugal for sure, and often can be cheap. Exemplified by the fact that during this conversation in his home he was wearing a shirt had holes in the elbows. This person is also a very anxious person and I’d generally not trustful that things will work out just fine in the future, which is a shame. During the course of the conversation this person revealed to me that their net worth is in the range of $12MM while having retired from a job that never paid much more than $100k. I definitely detected some regret for not having been more free with his spending, since what is left over has ended up being just another source of anxiety and stress- often overwhelmingly so. Never underestimate how much your money is going to stress you out when you’re old.

So, somewhat perversely, the frugality and cheapness that helped relieve anxiety earlier in life, can come around to cause more of it later in life, largely due to having failed to spend more and be more generous. I guess what I’m saying is it might be a Good idea to leave a 25-30% tip, even if it leaves you feeling anxious.
+1

Sometimes anxiety is helpful; at a certain point, however, it can become a problem, particularly when it becomes a habit rather than a realistic response to actual circumstances.

I'm thinking of a younger sister. By any measure, she and her husband are very wealthy. Yet she only feels comfortable flying economy. So she booked the cheapest, connecting flight when she went out to visit my nephew. Ordinarily, I wouldn't mind - it's her money - but she is also still recovering from major surgery and chronic kidney issues that leave her feeling weak and tired. She is nowhere near being physically back to normal, yet she's schlepping heavy suitcases at the airport, pushing herself to get to her connecting flight. She was so worn out from the traveling that she didn't fully get to enjoy her trip.

When I asked her why she didn't just book a nonstop, business class flight since she could easily afford it, she said it was too expensive. :oops:
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by wm631 »

AnnetteLouisan wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 9:15 am People who use terms like “cheap” or “greedy” raise red flags with me. Each of us spends in the way that best meets our budget, income, circumstances, needs and wants. Being around high spenders and spending for status is why I’m on this forum in the first place, trying to catch up in middle age. I no longer associate with people who feel a need to tell me how to spend my own money - and it’s so much more serene of an existence. There are things I don’t spend on that others value, and there are thing that I value and spend on that others don’t. That’s why the term used for people is individual.
Ok. But, the problem is in the "balance". I've seen too many examples in my own life. Growing up, my best friend's family lived by - and for - the Calvinistic "thriftiness" doctrine to a fairly scary degree. They all ended up selfish, carping at each other, finally estranged, each going his-her own way. The final will and testament reading of the father I'm sure was interesting to see. Their stinginess wasn't pleasant watching as I was growing up, and ended as a kind of version of Cronin's "Hatter's Castle". I absolutely don't want to find myself over the Other Side like Dickens' old ghostly spectre in "Christmas Carol" with a monstrous safe attached to his leg, sobbing because he couldn't (and didn't, in life) help a destitute mother and baby in the snow just below him.

You also don't want to end up on the other end of this. A fun interest I found years ago was observing how famous individuals of my generation - the "Hippie/Love Generation" - handled the sudden flush of money/funds, and it's eventually disbursement; especially rock music groups. The "Paul McCartney Factor". There always seems to be one individual in a setting who has his/her financial head on their shoulders - a McCartney, a Jagger, a Dave Clark, a Robbie Robertson, an RZA as examples; while the others played it away and/or wasted it. Then (of course) the embitterment sets in. You can't really win in this. All you can do as an individual is the "right, unself-centered course for all" if it's given to you to handle. "Famous" ... or, "Boglehead". It can be a bit like trying to keep an other-wise drunken rowboat from tipping over into the ocean, though.
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

wm631 wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 11:41 am
AnnetteLouisan wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 9:15 am People who use terms like “cheap” or “greedy” raise red flags with me. Each of us spends in the way that best meets our budget, income, circumstances, needs and wants. Being around high spenders and spending for status is why I’m on this forum in the first place, trying to catch up in middle age. I no longer associate with people who feel a need to tell me how to spend my own money - and it’s so much more serene of an existence. There are things I don’t spend on that others value, and there are thing that I value and spend on that others don’t. That’s why the term used for people is individual.
Ok. But, the problem is in the "balance". I've seen too many examples in my own life. Growing up, my best friend's family lived by - and for - the Calvinistic "thriftiness" doctrine to a fairly scary degree. They all ended up selfish, carping at each other, finally estranged, each going his-her own way. The final will and testament reading of the father I'm sure was interesting to see. Their stinginess wasn't pleasant watching as I was growing up, and ended as a kind of version of Cronin's "Hatter's Castle". I absolutely don't want to find myself over the Other Side like Dickens' old ghostly spectre in "Christmas Carol" with a monstrous safe attached to his leg, sobbing because he couldn't (and didn't, in life) help a destitute mother and baby in the snow just below him.

You also don't want to end up on the other end of this. A fun interest I found years ago was observing how famous individuals of my generation - the "Hippie/Love Generation" - handled the sudden flush of money/funds, and it's eventually disbursement; especially rock music groups. The "Paul McCartney Factor". There always seems to be one individual in a setting who has his/her financial head on their shoulders - a McCartney, a Jagger, a Dave Clark, a Robbie Robertson, an RZA as examples; while the others played it away and/or wasted it. Then (of course) the embitterment sets in. You can't really win in this. All you can do as an individual is the "right, unself-centered course for all" if it's given to you to handle. "Famous" ... or, "Boglehead". It can be a bit like trying to keep an other-wise drunken rowboat from tipping over into the ocean, though.
When someone else is paying, they can dictate the terms. Right now I am drinking two things that some on this board would excoriate me for: a Starbucks cappuccino (Sue me, it’s rare for me, it’s a lazy Sunday and I was in the mood) and a nonessential imported mineral water. It’s my money. I save in many other areas.

I agree that one can go overboard. I donate, I tip well, I have a generous heart but an acute awareness of math and I adhere to one of the strictest budgets on here (mostly due to circumstance), but maybe not for long. One thing I learned here is that saving is no substitute for investing.

We all have to find the line.
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by cs412a »

AnnetteLouisan wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 11:49 am When someone else is paying, they can dictate the terms. Right now I am drinking two things that some on this board would excoriate me for: a Starbucks cappuccino (Sue me, it’s rare for me, it’s a lazy Sunday and I was in the mood) and a nonessential imported mineral water. It’s my money. I save in many other areas.

I agree that one can go overboard. I donate, I tip well, I have a generous heart but an acute awareness of math and I adhere to one of the strictest budgets on here (mostly due to circumstance), but maybe not for long. One thing I learned here is that saving is no substitute for investing.

We all have to find the line.
If you like Starbucks coffee, then that's what you like. It certainly won't bankrupt you.

I generally don't care for Starbucks coffee. Right now I'm drinking Yemen Haraaz coffee. At $25/.5 lb., it's not a frugal choice; but the way I brew it, it costs $1.66 for a 12 oz. cup - about 50 cents less than 12 oz. of brewed coffee at Starbucks. And SodaStream for bubbly water 8-)
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by stoptothink »

AnnetteLouisan wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 9:15 am People who use terms like “cheap” or “greedy” raise red flags with me. Each of us spends in the way that best meets our budget, income, circumstances, needs and wants. Being around high spenders and spending for status is why I’m on this forum in the first place, trying to catch up in middle age. I no longer associate with people who feel a need to tell me how to spend my own money - and it’s so much more serene of an existence. There are things I don’t spend on that others value, and there are thing that I value and spend on that others don’t. That’s why the term used for people is individual.
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by Wwwdotcom »

cs412a wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 11:25 am
Wanderingwheelz wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 1:00 pm Frugality/cheapness is often simply a manifestation of anxiety about the future.

If you’re the type of person who feels alienated or otherwise bothered by your desire to save pennies at the expense of other people that you are close to in your life, then perhaps it’s time to address your anxiety and also perhaps the general distrust that things will work out in the future.

Last weekend I had a long discussion with a person I’ve known my entire life. This person is frugal for sure, and often can be cheap. Exemplified by the fact that during this conversation in his home he was wearing a shirt had holes in the elbows. This person is also a very anxious person and I’d generally not trustful that things will work out just fine in the future, which is a shame. During the course of the conversation this person revealed to me that their net worth is in the range of $12MM while having retired from a job that never paid much more than $100k. I definitely detected some regret for not having been more free with his spending, since what is left over has ended up being just another source of anxiety and stress- often overwhelmingly so. Never underestimate how much your money is going to stress you out when you’re old.

So, somewhat perversely, the frugality and cheapness that helped relieve anxiety earlier in life, can come around to cause more of it later in life, largely due to having failed to spend more and be more generous. I guess what I’m saying is it might be a Good idea to leave a 25-30% tip, even if it leaves you feeling anxious.
+1

Sometimes anxiety is helpful; at a certain point, however, it can become a problem, particularly when it becomes a habit rather than a realistic response to actual circumstances.

I'm thinking of a younger sister. By any measure, she and her husband are very wealthy. Yet she only feels comfortable flying economy. So she booked the cheapest, connecting flight when she went out to visit my nephew. Ordinarily, I wouldn't mind - it's her money - but she is also still recovering from major surgery and chronic kidney issues that leave her feeling weak and tired. She is nowhere near being physically back to normal, yet she's schlepping heavy suitcases at the airport, pushing herself to get to her connecting flight. She was so worn out from the traveling that she didn't fully get to enjoy her trip.

When I asked her why she didn't just book a nonstop, business class flight since she could easily afford it, she said it was too expensive. :oops:
I think most people that have accumulated and saved a bit of money in their lives needed to condition themselves to be masochists. Being able to turn it off (turn back on normal sensories) can be quite difficult. I'd like to think that not all frugal people are masochists.
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

You might like to think that, but we are.
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by hunoraut »

There is such a thing as pathological cheapness. There is a friend in our group whom we are comfortable in labeling as “cheap”.

In college, this person would sip from twist-top beer and save them for multiple social occasions. (Not a teetotaler, they would happily chug free beer). Once, a dormmate asked for a ride to a hospital for a sudden illness, and they first demanded gas money in return.

The person came from a working class family of standard means, and I excused some of this due to being a ‘broke student’ like the rest of us was.

The behavior continued years later even while working a well-paid prestigious job. They not only shopped at used-goods stores (which is fine in itself IMO), but did so strategically on days of special sales, and those goods were proudly gifted to others on holidays.

We went on a trip together, and they would tally spending (for later cost splitting) down to the literal penny. Even such miniscule expenditure as, say, paying $0.50/ticket for 3 bus passengers, that would be recorded and later recalled.

That is not normal. Normal is paying $32 for lunch and rounding the number so it’s $10/person. Normal is not asking for the $0.50 from 4 days ago.

Miserable habit, but a good friend otherwise.
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by wm631 »

hunoraut wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 2:16 pm There is such a thing as pathological cheapness. There is a friend in our group whom we are comfortable in labeling as “cheap”.

In college, this person would sip from twist-top beer and save them for multiple social occasions. (Not a teetotaler, they would happily chug free beer). Once, a dormmate asked for a ride to a hospital for a sudden illness, and they first demanded gas money in return.

The person came from a working class family of standard means, and I excused some of this due to being a ‘broke student’ like the rest of us was.

The behavior continued years later even while working a well-paid prestigious job. They not only shopped at used-goods stores (which is fine in itself IMO), but did so strategically on days of special sales, and those goods were proudly gifted to others on holidays.

We went on a trip together, and they would tally spending (for later cost splitting) down to the literal penny. Even such miniscule expenditure as, say, paying $0.50/ticket for 3 bus passengers, that would be recorded and later recalled.

That is not normal. Normal is paying $32 for lunch and rounding the number so it’s $10/person. Normal is not asking for the $0.50 from 4 days ago.

Miserable habit, but a good friend otherwise.
My before-posted-about family friends. Their idea of a "good" time was to see if they could get all the way home from the Cape May, N.J. beach (it was all free back then) on a 1/4 tank of gas, without running out. I'm not kidding on this. It was about a two hour trip back then.

They lost a couple of times.
Last edited by wm631 on Sun Apr 16, 2023 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by yatesd »

What is your end financial goal? You may die tomorrow; you may live a long time. Personally, I like to live well today, enjoy time with my family, and plan far enough into the future for some flexibility.

If someone gave me $10M today, but I didn't live tomorrow it wouldn't matter much...actually probably would prefer not to have the distraction.
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by wm631 »

yatesd wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 2:41 pm What is your end financial goal? You may die tomorrow; you may live a long time. Personally, I like to live well today, enjoy time with my family, and plan far enough into the future for some flexibility.

If someone gave me $10M today, but I didn't live tomorrow it wouldn't matter much...actually probably would prefer not to have the distraction.
My family members and I had that age-old question once, a couple of years back: "What would you do if you won the lottery?" (... I personally knew three close co-workers who won $500,000.00 in the Pa. State Lottery. I saw the received check for one of the three. Interesting fall-out for other non-included co-workers there; for another thread.)

I thought about it for a minute or two. I had retired recently, and realized the extra money was kind of meaningless. I had enough to pursue what I really wanted - my time back. The fact was any huge extra sums plopped on me now was just going to add to my problems, let alone my tax complications. So ... I'd give the ticket to the kids. Let them sign the ticket, divide it up - with the provision that they buy a year-round family box suite at the Stadium Sports Complex in S.W. Philly, if the money was large enough. They accepted my terms. :wink:
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

hunoraut wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 2:16 pm We went on a trip together, and they would tally spending (for later cost splitting) down to the literal penny. Even such miniscule expenditure as, say, paying $0.50/ticket for 3 bus passengers, that would be recorded and later recalled.

That is not normal. Normal is paying $32 for lunch and rounding the number so it’s $10/person. Normal is not asking for the $0.50 from 4 days ago.

Miserable habit, but a good friend otherwise.
I don't see the problem with this, actually.

For a one-off expense, maybe I'd agree with your rounding suggestion, but on a multi-day trip where there are many identical charges per person, to me it makes most sense for one person with a good credit limit to pay all expenses, document them to the penny, and then divide the final total evenly for future reimbursement (as soon as practical). There is no need for rounding here, as with calculators, spreadsheets, digital wallets, and payment systems like Venmo, it's no more hassle to pay fractional dollars than some rounded number, unless you're exchanging physical cash, in which case the person doing the reimbursing should round up, as they've not been beset with the inconvenience of managing it all. Please explain how that's a miserable habit. I call it fair. I don't like the idea of people not paying their share for the benefits they've enjoyed, or gradual accumulation of inequity among an equally able peer group in who pays what when and who owes whom on the net. Just keep it simple and fair. Should be thankful someone is willing to keep up with it. The differences in personalities and approaches to financial responsibility or lack thereof are what I've seen cause the most friction on such trips.
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by randomguy »

Jags4186 wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 8:59 am
Firefly80 wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 5:03 pm
Wanderingwheelz wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 1:00 pm
Last weekend I had a long discussion with a person I’ve known my entire life. This person is frugal for sure, and often can be cheap. During the course of the conversation this person revealed to me that their net worth is in the range of $12MM while having retired from a job that never paid much more than $100k.

$12MM on 100k Salary?

Not sure if this is possible unless there was a significant Windfall involved, individual Stock picking, or some other highly profitable side Business.
Zuckerberg only has a $1 salary and has $50bn.
A 100k was also a lot more money a couple decades back. Imagine you retired in 1990 with 1.5 million dollars (not that unreasonable for someone making 100k/year), invested 60/40 and spend 50k/year. You would have 11 million dollars today. That isn't a super high savings rate and while a low SWR not some super low one.
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by randomguy »

hunoraut wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 2:16 pm There is such a thing as pathological cheapness. There is a friend in our group whom we are comfortable in labeling as “cheap”.
The question is always were that line is. My Mom had a friend who end up in the hospital because paying 1 dollar for bottled water (this was close to 30 years ago) was unacceptable. Who you had to plan your outings around making sure she was home for food cause eating out was again unacceptable. You have to decide where to draw it. There is a huge range between living below your means and living so that the fear of spending money drives all your choices.

In the end, people end up debating is frugality a virtue (not spending is its own reward) or is it just a means to an end (having enough money gives me the freedom I want). Put me in the second camp. In collage I worried about 5 bucks cause the budget was at a level where that was most of the entertainment budget for a week. These days I am not going to stress out if I am subsidizing my friends by .50 when we got out to eat. The 100 bucks/year max difference just will not matter.
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

Reply to Annette's now-deleted ghost post:

What is the state sales tax rate, what level of credit card cash back did they receive on the transaction, and why are these so-called friends giving the payer their dirty shoe-money physical cash as a reimbursement? That's worth less than the printed amount for having to deal with it. That's not showing gratitude. Don't make them deal with cash.

https://youtu.be/5gR__i8Gvok
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by hunoraut »

Cheez-It Guy wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 3:00 pm For a one-off expense, maybe I'd agree with your rounding suggestion, but on a multi-day trip where there are many identical charges per person, to me it makes most sense for one person with a good credit limit to pay all expenses, document them to the penny, and then divide the final total evenly for future reimbursement (as soon as practical). There is no need for rounding here, as with calculators, spreadsheets, digital wallets, and payment systems like Venmo, it's no more hassle to pay fractional dollars than some rounded number, unless you're exchanging physical cash, in which case the person doing the reimbursing should round up, as they've not been beset with the inconvenience of managing it all.

...

Please explain how that's a miserable habit. I call it fair. I don't like the idea of people not paying their share for the benefits they've enjoyed, or gradual accumulation of inequity among an equally able peer group in who pays what when and who owes whom on the net. Just keep it simple and fair.
This was pre-smartphone. Expenses were recorded on a notebook. That person was not the sole-payer.

A $10 joint expenditure on coffee I would record. $32 on lunch I would write as $30. $79 on dinner I would round to $80. That's pretty simple.

Law of averages says the rounding will balance out at the end. What's the expected loss on that practice carried over a week at that level of spending? Who are the 'beneficiaries' and 'victims' of inequity?

$1.32 on hotel city fees and $0.50 on a transit fare is not something I deem worthy of whipping out a book and tracking, summing, and sub-dividing, particularly if I was a recent graduate on a 6-figure salary and zero debt. Is that extravagant?
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