Evaluating private school

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nigel_ht
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by nigel_ht »

psteinx wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 10:07 am
nigel_ht wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:35 am
gips wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:58 am the vast majority of schools in the US don't offer IB programs and AP classes are an absolute necessity to demonstrate rigor. I would guess more so today in the age of test optional.
The vast majority of schools in the US aren’t that selective.

Test optional means that AP and IB are probably more necessary to demonstrate rigor for the semi-selective…(10-20% acceptance rate)
It's an interesting point.

The SAT subject tests were killed off ~2 years ago (College Board does not offer them anymore).

ACT/SAT usage is still kinda iffy, even among most of the elite unis.

And grades are often inflated, such that I presume a large amount of the applicant pool at the elites is at either a uw4.0 or within a whisker thereof.

So, how do they distinguish.

For a long time, IIUC, it was helpful to take rigorous courses (i.e. APs and other challenging stuff), but most elites downplayed the actual results of the AP tests. And, since senior year AP classes produce test results much too late for the main application cycle, only <= junior year AP classes can result in AP scores by the time of (conventional) application. For a long time, AP classes and tests were mostly seen as for Seniors, and if a Junior or Sophomore took one or two, do you really want the Harvard accept/deny decision to be based on whether Sally got a 4 or a 5 on the one or two APs she'd taken?

That said, the colleges need SOMETHING to evaluate academic ability, and so maybe getting a bunch of 5s (and maybe a 4 or two) on APs, <= junior year, will become a main admissions feature for unhooked applicants to the tippy-top unis...
It’s still somewhat opaque to parents…even mildly connected parents who know a few admission folks…what really really helps the “average exceptional” unhooked applicant get an edge at these schools…

If I wanted to try to game the system I’d move my “average” 4.0 daughter to a disadvantaged high school…but she’s hate that so nope. I guess HYPMS is out of reach for undergrad.

Hmmm…my cousin is a Princeton grad…maybe if she adopted our DD she’d get a legacy check mark…
Tanelorn
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by Tanelorn »

phinanciallyfit wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 3:17 pm test scores which are highly correlated with family income.
Yes, but correlation is not causation as they say. It’s quite possible that both are correlated with a common third factor, like inheritable intelligence. If it was good enough just to be rich and buy good test scores, you wouldn’t see those bribery scandals where rich parents were paying off the college coaches to get their kid in if they could have just taken another test prep class.
nigel_ht
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by nigel_ht »

Vulcan wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 9:19 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 10:56 am When we were moving our son out of the public school, we needed a recommendation for his new private. So, we booked a meeting with his counselor. She said that she had many students, so please remind her who our son was.

This is of course the same counselor who told us that we were biased as parents in asking for our son to be reevaluated after his being tracked with an almost remedial math group. I guess the DMV wasn’t hiring that week when she applied for the counselor position.
When our elder was entering middle school, based on a placement test administered at the end of 6th grade, he was placed into pre-algebra instead of Algebra I we were expecting.

We fought the entire summer with the school and district administration, all the while being placated and fed platitudes about him not having demonstrated algebraic thinking and thus being placed properly. We are not typically pushy like that, but know our kid, who we taught basic algebra before he even entered kindergarten, and knew something was off, and they finally relented and agreed to retest him.

They gave him some test they test high schoolers with, and lo and behold, he aced it. Then, for giggles, they gave him the same middle school placement test. And he made same exact mistakes. So we took a look at that test together with district math specialist. And, wouldn't you know it? They had wrong answers, not him.

He had since proceeded to become one of the small handful of top math kids in the state, and is now one of the top CS students at MIT. His first-author high school research paper was published in a Springer journal, and another paper solving an open problem in theoretical CS that he co-authored after freshman year, and for the contributions of which he is principally responsible, has just been accepted to world's top conference in the field.

So, yeah, the educators don't always know what's best for your child. That's their parents' responsibility. As is, ultimately, their education.
TomatoTomahto wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 12:13 pm The day will come when your child will thank you.
:sharebeer
IMHO public school staff and teachers are generally not sufficiently compensated nor recognized to attract the top talent even in a highly ranked district. The few exceptions are top magnet schools that might get a few exceptional teachers.

Private schools may or may not be better depending on how good they are…but at the top end you get reasonably top end talent.

Our assigned counselor is not…stellar. We suck up to her simply because a counselor letter is expected so we hope she remembers who our kid is when the time comes to copy the information we provide her in some sort of hopefully comprehensible letter.

If DD1’s test scores were higher I’d spring for an admissions consultant…but I don’t think her current ECs help her stand out or offset not providing test scores so she’s in that zone where elite schools are too much of a reach and everything else she can make it into…
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Vulcan
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by Vulcan »

nigel_ht wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 10:56 am IMHO public school staff and teachers are generally not sufficiently compensated nor recognized to attract the top talent even in a highly ranked district. The few exceptions are top magnet schools that might get a few exceptional teachers.
FWIW, this story actually unfolded in our district's top magnet program (have to be in the 96th percentile on nationally normed tests to apply).
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
nigel_ht
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by nigel_ht »

Vulcan wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 11:09 am
nigel_ht wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 10:56 am IMHO public school staff and teachers are generally not sufficiently compensated nor recognized to attract the top talent even in a highly ranked district. The few exceptions are top magnet schools that might get a few exceptional teachers.
FWIW, this story actually unfolded in our district's top magnet program (have to be in the 96th percentile on nationally normed tests to apply).
Yay.

The whole profession is undervalued in the US…probably globally…

When you talk to public school teachers that went to so-so colleges and had so-so grades and went into teaching you’re like…well okay, we certainly aren’t getting the best and brightest.

My kids are just “average” so it’s a struggle to balance what is best for the kids vs trying to keep up with the academic Joneses like you and your kids :)

I mean back when I went to college being NHS, captain of some varsity team, 4.0 UGPA meant you had a shot at an elite or near elite school.

In 1990 Stanford’s admission rate was 19%…UPenn was 47%!

These days that’s where the competition starts…
stoptothink
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by stoptothink »

nigel_ht wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 11:29 am
Vulcan wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 11:09 am
nigel_ht wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 10:56 am IMHO public school staff and teachers are generally not sufficiently compensated nor recognized to attract the top talent even in a highly ranked district. The few exceptions are top magnet schools that might get a few exceptional teachers.
FWIW, this story actually unfolded in our district's top magnet program (have to be in the 96th percentile on nationally normed tests to apply).
Yay.

The whole profession is undervalued in the US…probably globally…

When you talk to public school teachers that went to so-so colleges and had so-so grades and went into teaching you’re like…well okay, we certainly aren’t getting the best and brightest.

My kids are just “average” so it’s a struggle to balance what is best for the kids vs trying to keep up with the academic Joneses like you and your kids :)

I mean back when I went to college being NHS, captain of some varsity team, 4.0 UGPA meant you had a shot at an elite or near elite school.

In 1990 Stanford’s admission rate was 19%…UPenn was 47%!

These days that’s where the competition starts…
I received a pretty significant merit scholarship to an "elite" university in '98. Based on grades and standardized test scores, my chances wouldn't be great of being accepted at all today (although "other" factors would probably ensure I did get in). My kids are top of their public school classes, but it's pretty clear at this point that seeking more out of their pre-college education wouldn't be worth it for us: they are more likely to get an athletic scholarship than be college classmates with Vulcan's kids. We're happy with public school and envision being happy with state public U in the future.
Big Dog
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by Big Dog »

gips wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:58 am
TomatoTomahto wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 6:15 am
CaptainT wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 5:30 am 2. I went to a public but very good high school. As a result my senior year was nothing but AP classes and gym. A senior class of 20 to 25 students will not allow for many if any AP classes.
My son got an International Baccalaureate degree from his private. He wanted to take some AP tests that were not strictly taught as part of the IB curriculum. The private school facilitated his taking the tests at another school and had teachers available (if needed) as he self studied the courses.

AP is helpful for meeting pre-reqs once in college.
this is either misleading or wrong. Since your son took the IB curriculum, AP was useful for him to meet pre-reqs but the vast majority of schools in the US don't offer IB programs and AP classes are an absolute necessity to demonstrate rigor. I would guess more so today in the age of test optional.
That is not correct. IB curriculum is considered rigorous. If your HS does not offer AP course, but IB instead, that is fine to demonstrate rigor for college admission purposes. No need to take AP tests, as many colleges also offer course credit for IB.

"My son got it in his head that he’d like to be a National AP Scholar,..."

Love that he set out a challenge for himself, but AP 'awards' are essentially worthless wrt college admissions.
Last edited by Big Dog on Thu May 19, 2022 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Valuethinker
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by Valuethinker »

keith6014 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 2:43 pm Thinking of sending 2 kids to STEM focused private school (1st to 12th) and we like a particular school because of outcomes. This is according to Greatschools and Niche.

My only concern is the school is relatively new, EST 2013. I spoke to few parents who are sending their kids there and they like it a lot. I sent my kids for 2 days as evaluation they too liked it and it seems their syllabus is what we are looking for.

Besides parents, Greatschools and Niche are there any other sites to validate the (new) school's reputation?
But is this what your kids are best aimed at?

Outcomes are ... part of the great socioeconomic status arms race.

Computer science & Electrical Engineering grads get paid well - but if your kid is not really oriented that way, this won't help them.

There's great merit in going to a school with strong academics, strong peer group. If your kid is less gifted in these areas, the peer group will tend to drag them along.

But make sure the ethos of the school aligns with your child's personality and values.
Valuethinker
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by Valuethinker »

Big Dog wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 12:12 pm

That is not correct. IB curriculum is considered rigorous. If your HS does not offer AP course, but IB instead, that is fine to demonstrate rigor for admission purposes. No need to take AP tests, as many colleges also offer course credit for IB.

"My son got it in his head that he’d like to be a National AP Scholar,..."

Love that he set out a challenge for himself, but AP 'awards' are essentially worthless wrt college admissions.
One of my nephews did IB at a private school in Canada.

Said that his first year of Engineering was "basically a review".

That's way, way, ahead of where I was with an ordinary Grade 13 (yes, we still had that, then) diploma at the same age.

On that basis, I am pretty impressed with the IB and it would smooth the often difficult transition to first year university.
CedarWaxWing
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by CedarWaxWing »

livesoft wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 2:49 pm When we evaluated a private school we asked to see where graduating seniors went to college. It turned out they went to the exact same places as the nearby public school seniors. Really no difference at all. That speaks to the demographics of all the parents more than anything else.

It is also very likely that the schools in the area recruit from the same group of qualified instructors.
When my 3 kids were grade, middle, and hs ages... I had the same experience. Twice I made an effort to find if the private schools were "better", and I spoke with principals of the most "respected" private schools in my area.

I also asked the principals if they had real evidence that their school was in anyway producing better results than the good public schools in our area.

In each case, those principals were appallingly, and possibly willfully, ignorant of the concept of objective evidence. They basically told me "we know we are better because our students get into the best universities". They were offended (or feigned that response to cover for not having anything to show) that anyone would ask for objective evidence that their end results were due to the school and not due to the students/parents that cared enough about education to pay top dollar for the school's public relations created reputation and social status.

They had no evidence, and guess what... kids from the public schools also get into the best universities. My boys went to flagship schools... and they were in the 99th percentile on acts and sats (2 of 3 were... the other was not so interested in studying. :) All three boys got at least two degrees in stem majors, one went to grad school in Europe (for free as an American btw), and then a Phd at one of the top schools in his chosen stem field, and was accepted into the so called ivys of during that Phd application process.

If your public school is safe, and the schools have a "TAG" or "IB" program... that is, for most students, going to result in enough opportunity to do well at any university. The state flagship schools are also good enough.

Most students are not limited by the schools they attend.

The very few that are may need special programs, but those students are extremely unusually brilliant, and unusually rare.
livesoft
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by livesoft »

In a thread 4 years ago I made the following comment:
viewtopic.php?p=3930975#p3930975

The other comments in that thread may be pertinent to this thread.
livesoft wrote: Wed May 16, 2018 5:03 pm [...]
My spouse did that and called the Admissions Director of a private elite university (not the same one our child eventually attended) and asked them about these two high schools. Answer: No difference in students that come to our university.
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nigel_ht
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by nigel_ht »

CedarWaxWing wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 12:27 pm
livesoft wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 2:49 pm When we evaluated a private school we asked to see where graduating seniors went to college. It turned out they went to the exact same places as the nearby public school seniors. Really no difference at all. That speaks to the demographics of all the parents more than anything else.

It is also very likely that the schools in the area recruit from the same group of qualified instructors.
When my 3 kids were grade, middle, and hs ages... I had the same experience. Twice I made an effort to find if the private schools were "better", and I spoke with principals of the most "respected" private schools in my area.

I also asked the principals if they had real evidence that their school was in anyway producing better results than the good public schools in our area.

In each case, those principals were appallingly, and possibly willfully, ignorant of the concept of objective evidence. They basically told me "we know we are better because our students get into the best universities". They were offended (or feigned that response to cover for not having anything to show) that anyone would ask for objective evidence that their end results were due to the school and not due to the students/parents that cared enough about education to pay top dollar for the school's public relations created reputation and social status.
Well, “objective evidence” usually isn’t because criteria selection is always biased in non-trivial cases especially when measurement of intrinsic properties is difficult.
They had no evidence, and guess what... kids from the public schools also get into the best universities. My boys went to flagship schools... and they were in the 99th percentile on acts and sats (2 of 3 were... the other was not so interested in studying. :)
The evidence isn’t just the outcome of the 99th percentile but also the outcome of the 70 or 80th percentile.

You send your 70th percentile scion to Phillips Exeter or Andover in the hopes they can do for them what Andover did for George W. Bush…get them into Yale when they are shaky even as a legacy admit.

Would your non-99th percentile son done better in a private school?

What is “objective evidence” one way or the other?

Forget the 99th percentile. By definition they are sufficiently rare enough to ignore for most parents.
TomWambsgans
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by TomWambsgans »

livesoft wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 2:49 pm When we evaluated a private school we asked to see where graduating seniors went to college. It turned out they went to the exact same places as the nearby public school seniors. Really no difference at all.
Exactly my experience recently. It pretty much settled the debate in my household.
nigel_ht
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by nigel_ht »

livesoft wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:06 pm In a thread 4 years ago I made the following comment:
viewtopic.php?p=3930975#p3930975

The other comments in that thread may be pertinent to this thread.
livesoft wrote: Wed May 16, 2018 5:03 pm [...]
My spouse did that and called the Admissions Director of a private elite university (not the same one our child eventually attended) and asked them about these two high schools. Answer: No difference in students that come to our university.
And this is evidence of what? Do you really think you would get a different answer as some random parent?

“Oh yes, we give preferential treatment to rich kids that go to expensive private schools. Please quote me for the NY Times so I can get fired…”
nigel_ht
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by nigel_ht »

TomWambsgans wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:16 pm
livesoft wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 2:49 pm When we evaluated a private school we asked to see where graduating seniors went to college. It turned out they went to the exact same places as the nearby public school seniors. Really no difference at all.
Exactly my experience recently. It pretty much settled the debate in my household.
Image

My kids aren’t smart enough to test into Thomas Jefferson but I suspect that if I got them into Sidwell Friends or St Albans their college acceptance outcomes would be better than in ye olde decently ranked non-magnet public school.
gips
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by gips »

psteinx wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 10:07 am
nigel_ht wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:35 am
gips wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:58 am the vast majority of schools in the US don't offer IB programs and AP classes are an absolute necessity to demonstrate rigor. I would guess more so today in the age of test optional.
The vast majority of schools in the US aren’t that selective.

Test optional means that AP and IB are probably more necessary to demonstrate rigor for the semi-selective…(10-20% acceptance rate)
It's an interesting point.

The SAT subject tests were killed off ~2 years ago (College Board does not offer them anymore).

ACT/SAT usage is still kinda iffy, even among most of the elite unis.

And grades are often inflated, such that I presume a large amount of the applicant pool at the elites is at either a uw4.0 or within a whisker thereof.

So, how do they distinguish.

For a long time, IIUC, it was helpful to take rigorous courses (i.e. APs and other challenging stuff), but most elites downplayed the actual results of the AP tests. And, since senior year AP classes produce test results much too late for the main application cycle, only <= junior year AP classes can result in AP scores by the time of (conventional) application. For a long time, AP classes and tests were mostly seen as for Seniors, and if a Junior or Sophomore took one or two, do you really want the Harvard accept/deny decision to be based on whether Sally got a 4 or a 5 on the one or two APs she'd taken?

That said, the colleges need SOMETHING to evaluate academic ability, and so maybe getting a bunch of 5s (and maybe a 4 or two) on APs, <= junior year, will become a main admissions feature for unhooked applicants to the tippy-top unis...
i’d make a couple of points here, elite colleges play down results of ap classes to say “well, your ap english class probably wasnt as rigorous as what we teach here at harvard so no, we’re not giving you three credits for the course”. however, if you look at harvard’s common dataset, they note course rigor as considered during the admissions cycle. many colleges mark rigor as very important. so rigor is already an important element of elite admissions and, as i said above, with the absence of standardized test scores, probably becoming more important.

in terms of ap test results, as you point out, schools have results from previous years as well as current year’s grades. in our neck of the woods, kids start taking ap classes sophomore year, my son for example had 13 ap classes by the time he graduated, i’d guess 7 is the minimum (at our school) for kids trying for elite admissions
.
Last edited by gips on Thu May 19, 2022 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
gips
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by gips »

Big Dog wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 12:12 pm
gips wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:58 am
TomatoTomahto wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 6:15 am
CaptainT wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 5:30 am 2. I went to a public but very good high school. As a result my senior year was nothing but AP classes and gym. A senior class of 20 to 25 students will not allow for many if any AP classes.
My son got an International Baccalaureate degree from his private. He wanted to take some AP tests that were not strictly taught as part of the IB curriculum. The private school facilitated his taking the tests at another school and had teachers available (if needed) as he self studied the courses.

AP is helpful for meeting pre-reqs once in college.
this is either misleading or wrong. Since your son took the IB curriculum, AP was useful for him to meet pre-reqs but the vast majority of schools in the US don't offer IB programs and AP classes are an absolute necessity to demonstrate rigor. I would guess more so today in the age of test optional.
That is not correct. IB curriculum is considered rigorous. If your HS does not offer AP course, but IB instead, that is fine to demonstrate rigor for college admission purposes. No need to take AP tests, as many colleges also offer course credit for IB.

"My son got it in his head that he’d like to be a National AP Scholar,..."

Love that he set out a challenge for himself, but AP 'awards' are essentially worthless wrt college admissions.
sorry, i guess i poorly worded my post. my point wasnt that IB isnt rigorous, it’s that for schools lacking an IB program, ap classes are key to demonstrate rigor.
Krui24
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by Krui24 »

I've seen a lot of statistics that show that private school kids get better outcomes than public school kids. I have seen zero evidence that these outcomes are because of the school rather than because of the parents / neighborhood / household net worth.

You'll get a million anecdotes and "sample size of 1" responses to this question, but the statistics show that private schools don't change the expected outcome of well-off kids or of less-well-off kids.

That said, I send my eldest kid to a fancy private school. In her case it's mostly based on her needing extra care for a health issue. My other two kids are in a 'gifted' program in public school and it's FREE! I love that.
virginiabirdie
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by virginiabirdie »

As for academics, greatschools and niche are great. Also check HS admissions, as others have said. But in the end, I think it's the community that is the most important.

FWIW, I send my kids to private school. One is excellent, and everything I hoped it would be. The other is just so-so.Nevertheless, I am happy with private because the kids and parents are so much nicer than public. At least where I live! Don't underestimate the value of community. The social skills they build are even more important than academic learning, IMHO.
Last edited by virginiabirdie on Thu May 19, 2022 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Journeyman510
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by Journeyman510 »

nigel_ht wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:40 pm
TomWambsgans wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:16 pm
livesoft wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 2:49 pm When we evaluated a private school we asked to see where graduating seniors went to college. It turned out they went to the exact same places as the nearby public school seniors. Really no difference at all.
Exactly my experience recently. It pretty much settled the debate in my household.
Image

My kids aren’t smart enough to test into Thomas Jefferson but I suspect that if I got them into Sidwell Friends or St Albans their college acceptance outcomes would be better than in ye olde decently ranked non-magnet public school.
What this shows is that there are plenty of average private schools but only a small number that are truly elite. I'm fortunate that my kids attend one of privates on this list. In our case the public high schools in my city aren't great, we didn't want to move, and felt private was a better option for us.

Tuition is much higher these days. This is an old article. Lol.
yosh99
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by yosh99 »

Remember that these schools are self-selecting. Students that do not score high on tests or are not inclined to go on to college are weeded out one way or another. Public schools don't have that option.

Going to a school like this does not ensure that your child will go on to college or attend one of these exclusive schools. It does mean, however, that if your child is not inclined in that direction they'll not graduate from these schools in the first place.
egri
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by egri »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 10:56 am
psteinx wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 10:42 am.
[snip…]
5) Privates probably have better internal college counseling than privates. I think that would likely have benefitted one of my kids and led to better college admissions results for him.
When we were moving our son out of the public school, we needed a recommendation for his new private. So, we booked a meeting with his counselor. She said that she had many students, so please remind her who our son was.

This is of course the same counselor who told us that we were biased as parents in asking for our son to be reevaluated after his being tracked with an almost remedial math group. I guess the DMV wasn’t hiring that week when she applied for the counselor position.
One of my neighbors is a retired guidance counselor who worked at a prestigious prep school in Pennsylvania. When he retired, he moved to my hometown in Rhode Island, which had the state's best public school system. He was aghast at the process I described at my old high school; counselors were assigned by student's last name, no changing counselors was allowed, and I think we met one time face-to-face.
nigel_ht
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by nigel_ht »

egri wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:54 pm
He was aghast at the process I described at my old high school; counselors were assigned by student's last name, no changing counselors was allowed, and I think we met one time face-to-face.
That’s how it is on our school. I sent my DS in with a couple dozen donuts to the advising office and to talk to the good counselor on the side...she helped him out. I may have to do the same with DD…
Topic Author
keith6014
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by keith6014 »

2pedals wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 8:53 pm Just be careful you have enough resources and money to support them both K-12 and the college of their choice. My parents only fully supported my oldest brother's private college. When it came to me (the last child of several), they wouldn't do the same. :oops:

If you do have enough it's not really a private versus public choice and not a ROI. It's a school, x, y or z choice for your kid. In most situations when parents have limited funds, I think it's better to save the money for college expenses.
Its a very good point. I put my financial situation here: viewtopic.php?t=376200
Topic Author
keith6014
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by keith6014 »

dboeger1 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 9:22 pm OP, how are you defining "outcomes"? If you're specifically referring to the quality of education, despite being somewhat subjective based on personal preferences, it's also easier to evaluate on an objective basis, because you can directly observe how the school operates. If by "outcomes" you mean college acceptance, I'm not saying school doesn't matter, but be very careful equating higher-ranked school to better chance higher-ranked college.

One big reason for this is that college admissions are generally pretty opaque and subject to change, especially over long time horizons, so everyone's ultimately just guessing what will get them accepted. I was shocked to learn from a coworker with college-aged kids that lots of colleges are no longer requiring SAT/ACT scores for admissions. I understand the reasons, especially given the pandemic's disruptions to education, but it still seems problematic to me, and I imagine there were lots of highly-ranked students who prepared primarily for standardized tests only to find they were no longer as much of a factor.

A related point is that college admission decisions are clearly not based on the same universal criteria for all students. This is not just limited to the usual headline-grabbing issues like race or gender, but they also accept students based on filling various majors and departments, socioeconomic diversity, unique experiences, geography, etc. So you can't really say for sure whether a particular school choice is going to have much of an impact when applying. For example, I got into a top-tier university that was very selective despite many, many applicants being significantly more qualified than me, likely due to the combination of being a mixed-race minority, financially disadvantaged, and graduating valedictorian from a poorly ranked school system that had never sent a student to a top-tier university before. Although it wasn't a condition of my acceptance, I was also invited to a Summer program between my senior year of high school and freshman year of college to help bridge the gap. I didn't know it at the time, but thank goodness I participated because it was very rigorous and intense compared to my high school studies and I most likely would not have been successful at that school if it was not for that initial experience. The point is that I realize I was something of a charity case, so going to a private school (which my parents considered back when we had money) might not have actually helped.

Speaking of graduating valedictorian from high school, I have to imagine that relative student rankings within a school system are as big of a factor, if not bigger, than raw performance (if there is such a thing, especially with the decline of standardized testing). There was a kid in my school system growing up who was notorious for being an overachiever, but not a humble one like me, more like super aggressive about maximizing every opportunity, kind of like the equivalent of a finance nerd who salivates at the opportunity to max out the mega backdoor Roth because they like to stick it to Uncle Sam (I'm kind of poking fun at myself here, so please take no offense). Anyway, when we were in middle school, the district opened up a new school similar to what you described with a STEM focus, and they had a representative promoting this new school and trying to get people to sign up for its first class. We all joked that this particular student would be the first to sign up, and sure enough, he ran right home and gave his parents the pamphlet and they immediately signed him up for it expecting better "outcomes". I didn't see him again until senior year when we happened to bump into each other at the SAT testing center, so we exchanged numbers and agreed to meet up and talk about which universities we would eventually get accepted to. That's when I learned that we had the same dream goal. Eventually, I got in and he didn't. Now, to be clear, I know nothing about his performance, only that he went to this special new school expecting it to increase his chances of getting into his dream school. But it's interesting that I got in and he didn't. He was always a top student, and there's a decent chance he would've graduated valedictorian had he stayed.

Lastly, I know people talk about paying for better education from a private school and all the benefits associated with that, but remember that money can also buy other things like books, certifications, vacations abroad, tutoring, lessons, computers, equipment, etc. If you can afford private school, you can also afford to give your child the most comfortable, rewarding school experience of any student in the public school, so that's really what you should be comparing against, not apples-to-apples average test scores and the other usual metrics.

With all that having been said, do I think private schools improve acceptance rates to top universities? Yes, probably. The vast majority of my university classmates were from private schools or very well-known elite magnet public schools. Of the remainder, a significant portion were foreign students. Only a very small portion came from run-of-the-mill small-town American schools. I just don't know that paying for a private school is the obvious slam dunk it seems like based on those figures, because either public or private could end up being a better fit for your child overall, and academic performance is only one facet of a well-balanced school life.
Thankyou for the great post.
What happened to your friend?
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by keith6014 »

mecht3ach wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 9:36 pm
keith6014 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 8:00 pm There is no legacy in this highschool. Its relatively new
Sorry that I wasn't clear - I didn't mean legacy admits into the high school, but rather that the college admits can sometimes be due to parental legacy at the universities. That is something we have seen.
Oh no, we aren't legacy. My wife went to a top school oversees. I went to a good public state school. We will be OK if they goto our school(s) but we want something better. If they apply to my school -- sure, put in legacy. My wife's school doesn't care of legacy. Its purely merit.
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by keith6014 »

CaptainT wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 5:30 am 1. If school started in 2013 then the graduate class did not do k thru 12 at this school. Not sure if good or bad just a thought
2. I went to a public but very good high school. As a result my senior year was nothing but AP classes and gym. A senior class of 20 to 25 students will not allow for many if any AP classes.
3. With that small class size you won't have any or many sports teams. I know I wasn't a great athlete but middle school and high school sports taught me a lot about working hard, teamwork, and effort
4. Remember the private school has a data bias of kids that are not doing fabulous will be removed from the sample by their parents. Why would you continue to pay big $ for private school if you thought kid was only going to mediocre college.
5. It is a luxury good. If you already have kids college fully funded and your retirement fully funded and have enough money to pay for this expensive luxury and want to buy this expense sure go for it. That said if retirement is not secure and college funds not secure then never in a million years is this a need. It is a want only.
Thanks for the points.
1. The school started as pre k to middle school. Then with demand it became a highschool.
2. What is the population density of your school? I've heard stories from some top NJ schools that their kids couldn't get into AP classes eventhouh they scores high in honors classes because not enough spots.
3. We plan to do sports in our local township. And yes, team sports is very important to us.
4. Very true. I believe my kids are average.
5. Perhaps, the most important question. My situation -- viewtopic.php?t=376200

Thanks for the thoughful post!
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by keith6014 »

dred pirate wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 7:31 am
CaptainT wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 5:30 am
3. With that small class size you won't have any or many sports teams. I know I wasn't a great athlete but middle school and high school sports taught me a lot about working hard, teamwork, and effort
although I agree with the vast majority of your post - I have an N of 1, but I graduated with 26 kids (small town public school) and I played four sports (we did summer baseball)- I am NOT a good athlete, but I was able to be a four sport letter winner because, well, we needed almost the entire high school to go out and play to have a team.
Ha! I love this. I would love my kids to experience something like this.
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by keith6014 »

gips wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:17 am op, while we made the decision to not send our kids to private school, I have lots of friends and wall st ex-colleagues who did. Here are some observations from their experience:
- the tuition is not the total cost, you are expected to make additional donations.
- their kids all had to test into the schools, so not sure if that's a requirement for the school you're considering
- the kids were not allowed to apply will-nilly to colleges. The guidance office managed which schools the kids applied to.
- the guidance office had close relationships with admissions officers at top colleges. Two of my partners were told things like "your son has a 95% chance of being accepted to u of chicago but we don't think he can get into yale because we have a number of stronger candidates". They were left wondering if the real reason was based on merit or donation amount. Still, they were thrilled with the u of chicago acceptances.
- One of my partners lived in a school district with one of the best public high schools in the country. He told me his favorite part of the month was writing the tuition check because he was so happy with the education/experience they were receiving.
- We lived in a nyc suburb with one of the best public schools in the country (top 1%) and a graduating class of ~125 kids. The top 10-20% had excellent admissions, the top 30-40% were admitted to top 20-35 schools. So pretty good, right? I worked with a woman who sent her kids to the top boarding school in NJ and she sent me their admission list, seemed like their top 10% went right to princeton and the bottom half were getting into great schools.

I would suggest talking to the school about their relationship with admissions officers. Our public school, as described above, was excellent but didn't do a very good job with this aspect of college admissions. The year my middle child was applying to schools, they had someone out from harvard to talk to the kids, when he got back to his car, he had a parking ticket :)

good luck!
Thanks for the great post.
I am not looking for the prestige private school. The opposite. I want something very low key. I like this particular school because it has academic rigor and have heard great reviews from parents whom which our kids went to daycare, pre-k and k.
Yes, my kids will have to test into the school. I doubt this school will have good college admission officer influence. But, I should ask how counseling is during 11th and 12th. My kids are still in 1st grade. LOL
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by keith6014 »

BradJ wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:25 am It is a very difficult decision, and I honestly think sending your kids to private is something you probably will not regret. My wife and I come from a family where some went to public and some went to private and I can honestly say the outcomes are exactly the same (good solid jobs, well educated). That being said, private school can sort of "shrink your world" a little and you may feel like you are part of a group, and the there will not be as much "chaos" as there is in public. My wife teaches at a tough public school, but grew up private. She is under the impression that if a child can survive the chaos of public schools, they will be much better prepared for the world and probably more successful overall. That being said, the chaos is just too much at times so she still favors private.
Thanks BradJ.
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by keith6014 »

nigel_ht wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:32 am
keith6014 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 3:50 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 3:48 pm We lived in an affluent and education focused public school district in NJ, rated among the highest in the country. Some of their stellar appearing results were because they restricted access to opportunities; for example, if you wanted to take an AP class, they would make sure that you would get a 5 on the test. That’s all well and good, but our son had gotten placed on a low math ability track. He was depressed.

Our requests for reevaluation were denied, so we had him take the ISEE on which he scored well. He began HS at the private and excelled, especially in math, and ultimately went to Yale where he received an MS/BS in CS (math heavy machine learning niche) in his 4 years.

When we were researching the private, I walked down the hall and heard what I thought was a professional jazz band; it was the school band. I looked through their poetry magazine: first rate. The school was obviously more diverse than our monocultural local school; their generous scholarship program allowed kids to be accepted regardless of family financial situation. Teachers were often on their second career; my son’s chemistry teacher was out of Bell Labs and his physics teacher had a successful career on Wall Street (when he left his previous employer, they gave him an Audi R8 as a present). Those teachers were there because they wanted motivated and engaged students. His English teacher was a recent Harvard grad who didn’t need the money.

One caveat is that our experience was with private middle and high school. There’s a danger that younger kids will go through the system before they can be well evaluated. By the time someone is in middle school and, for sure HS, you can have an informative interview with them; not so in earlier years. It happened rarely, but behavioral issues were dealt with carefully but decisively (I don’t recall anyone getting thrown out, but I think it was suggested that some kids find a better fit elsewhere for the following year).

The local public school sent kids to Ivies and similar. The private also did, at roughly double the percentage. A real benefit was that our kids had friends from many different backgrounds. That’s often a shock for students entering college.

I’d suggest a schoo, that offers an International Baccalaureate.
You, personally, are one of the reasons why we are considering private school! :-)

We don't want to move to an affluent area. We like where we live. Just the schools aren't great but worse the peer influences.

During the tour I visted their computer science class and heard the lecturer. I was impressed (and shocked). She was teaching binary search on a white board -- recusively and iteratively. They were in 6th - 8th grade.
It is not an IB school according to https://www.ibo.org/
Well…that’s pretty good…

It seems more than a few cohorts have made it through the curriculum and the results look good from what you post.

The only thing you might miss from an older private with a more elite reputation is slightly more consideration from HYPMS but I’ve been told that mostly translates to waitlists if your kids aren’t competitive enough…that way they keep parents semi-happy at these elite feeders by not outright rejecting them…
I worry about these older more elite/exclusive private schools. Besides the cost, I worry about the peer influences in middle and high school. Around our area, we have a very expensive private school which caters to children of media moguls, CEOs (think bulge bracket bank), etc... I sort of don't want my kids to be around those kids -- sounds harsh.
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by keith6014 »

Valuethinker wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 12:17 pm
keith6014 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 2:43 pm Thinking of sending 2 kids to STEM focused private school (1st to 12th) and we like a particular school because of outcomes. This is according to Greatschools and Niche.

My only concern is the school is relatively new, EST 2013. I spoke to few parents who are sending their kids there and they like it a lot. I sent my kids for 2 days as evaluation they too liked it and it seems their syllabus is what we are looking for.

Besides parents, Greatschools and Niche are there any other sites to validate the (new) school's reputation?
But is this what your kids are best aimed at?

Outcomes are ... part of the great socioeconomic status arms race.

Computer science & Electrical Engineering grads get paid well - but if your kid is not really oriented that way, this won't help them.

There's great merit in going to a school with strong academics, strong peer group. If your kid is less gifted in these areas, the peer group will tend to drag them along.

But make sure the ethos of the school aligns with your child's personality and values.
Thanks for the inquisitive post.
I don't know what they are good at. Not trying to force them (or expecting) to be a EE, business magnets, or cardiothoracic surgeon. Just want them to be academically challenged. I think my kids are less gifted. But, I am hoping the peers will drag them along!
And yes, environment is very important to us. We will reserve the right to pull them out if its not right.
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by keith6014 »

Krui24 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 2:35 pm I've seen a lot of statistics that show that private school kids get better outcomes than public school kids. I have seen zero evidence that these outcomes are because of the school rather than because of the parents / neighborhood / household net worth.

You'll get a million anecdotes and "sample size of 1" responses to this question, but the statistics show that private schools don't change the expected outcome of well-off kids or of less-well-off kids.

That said, I send my eldest kid to a fancy private school. In her case it's mostly based on her needing extra care for a health issue. My other two kids are in a 'gifted' program in public school and it's FREE! I love that.
How did your elder kid like it?
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by keith6014 »

virginiabirdie wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 2:54 pm As for academics, greatschools and niche are great. Also check HS admissions, as others have said. But in the end, I think it's the community that is the most important.

FWIW, I send my kids to private school. One is excellent, and everything I hoped it would be. The other is just so-so.Nevertheless, I am happy with private because the kids and parents are so much nicer than public. At least where I live! Don't underestimate the value of community. The social skills they build are even more important than academic learning, IMHO.
Totally agree! You put it in a nice way
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by keith6014 »

yosh99 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 3:16 pm Remember that these schools are self-selecting. Students that do not score high on tests or are not inclined to go on to college are weeded out one way or another. Public schools don't have that option.

Going to a school like this does not ensure that your child will go on to college or attend one of these exclusive schools. It does mean, however, that if your child is not inclined in that direction they'll not graduate from these schools in the first place.
Thats a very good point. Hope they can actually graduate. Nothing is a guarantee
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by Journeyman510 »

keith6014 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:17 pm
virginiabirdie wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 2:54 pm As for academics, greatschools and niche are great. Also check HS admissions, as others have said. But in the end, I think it's the community that is the most important.

FWIW, I send my kids to private school. One is excellent, and everything I hoped it would be. The other is just so-so.Nevertheless, I am happy with private because the kids and parents are so much nicer than public. At least where I live! Don't underestimate the value of community. The social skills they build are even more important than academic learning, IMHO.
Totally agree! You put it in a nice way
This has been our experience as well.
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by stoptothink »

psteinx wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 2:43 pm
stoptothink wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 12:54 pm It's no different than paying full-freight for an expensive private school when the state's top public is a fraction of the cost. To some, it may be worth it (for various reasons) and for others it just doesn't make any sense; depends on a countless number of factors. With my experience, I lean towards private school making no sense for our family, but our family is not yours.
There are some differences, including:

1) At the K-12 level, for most of us in urban/suburban areas, the local elementary/middle/HS is within ~4 miles, often closer to 1-2. With school busses generally available. High end privates, unless you're fortunately located, will be more like 5-15 miles away, without bus service. More hassle to get your kid to and from school each day (~2 roundtrips/day), and more difficulty socializing with their school friends at off times/weekends.

Whereas, with colleges, your local flagship may be 50-150 miles away, and your private alternative 50-500 miles away. Yes, the distances for the latter may be larger, but in any case, they're likely living with their peers throughout the school year, and the extra mileage penalty is only paid a few times a year rather than a couple times a day...

2) I think there's more justification for increasing stratification of students by academic ability and interest, as they get older. Sure, a 95th or 99th percentile 2nd grader would benefit from similarly smart classmates (versus, say, 60th percentile), but the degree of benefit is likely significantly greater at 10th grade or college level. And all 2nd graders mostly do the same tasks, whereas that's clearly untrue at the university level, and while flagships are usually big, they're often lacking in certain specializations. For instance, engineering-oriented students are often steered to a smaller secondary state university that may lack many of the features and benefits of the flagship.

3) While fancy private HSs are cheaper than fancy private colleges, the SPREAD (private minus public) is not quite so much, and K-12 is 13 years of school versus ~4 years of undergrad.

4) It's easier for parents to supplement the academic needs of advanced K-6 (and, to a lesser extent 7-12) grade kids who are performing above peer norms, but harder to do for college, if kid is at a college "below" their ability level.
Of course there are some differences, you took it a lot deeper than I was thinking. My point was simply that the anecdotes of others are probably totally irrelevant because whether or not private school is "worth it" to your family and your kid is totally dependent on a whole bunch of factors individual to your situation. I do agree, for many of the reasons you mentioned, it is much harder (in my mind) to justify spending on private school than it is a more expensive/elite university education.
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by dboeger1 »

keith6014 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 7:44 pm Thankyou for the great post.
What happened to your friend?
I honestly have no idea, we never kept in touch after that. I don't worry about him at all though, his parents were very successful, he was motivated and intelligent, and I'm sure he'll do amazing in whatever he chooses to pursue.
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by James123 »

Journeyman510 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 2:57 pm
nigel_ht wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:40 pm
TomWambsgans wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:16 pm
livesoft wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 2:49 pm When we evaluated a private school we asked to see where graduating seniors went to college. It turned out they went to the exact same places as the nearby public school seniors. Really no difference at all.
Exactly my experience recently. It pretty much settled the debate in my household.
Image

My kids aren’t smart enough to test into Thomas Jefferson but I suspect that if I got them into Sidwell Friends or St Albans their college acceptance outcomes would be better than in ye olde decently ranked non-magnet public school.
:oops: :oops:

What this shows is that there are plenty of average private schools but only a small number that are truly elite. I'm fortunate that my kids attend one of privates on this list. In our case the public high schools in my city aren't great, we didn't want to move, and felt private was a better option for us. :greedy

Tuition is much higher these days. This is an old article. Lol.
Tuition is indeed much higher these days. A close friend’s child goes to one of the elite schools on this list. The tuition next year is close to $60k. And this year’s exmissions were not stellar…
Another friend whose child was the top student at one of the top 10 elite private schools in NYC had very disappointing exmissions this year. The child got wait-listed at all Ivies. The parents are furious… He might end up going to University of Chicago :oops:
The parents are thinking of transferring their younger child to one of the selective public high schools in the city
Warm regards, | James
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Re: Evaluating private school

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James123 wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 1:21 pm
Journeyman510 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 2:57 pm
nigel_ht wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:40 pm
TomWambsgans wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:16 pm
livesoft wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 2:49 pm When we evaluated a private school we asked to see where graduating seniors went to college. It turned out they went to the exact same places as the nearby public school seniors. Really no difference at all.
Exactly my experience recently. It pretty much settled the debate in my household.
Image

My kids aren’t smart enough to test into Thomas Jefferson but I suspect that if I got them into Sidwell Friends or St Albans their college acceptance outcomes would be better than in ye olde decently ranked non-magnet public school.
:oops: :oops:

What this shows is that there are plenty of average private schools but only a small number that are truly elite. I'm fortunate that my kids attend one of privates on this list. In our case the public high schools in my city aren't great, we didn't want to move, and felt private was a better option for us. :greedy

Tuition is much higher these days. This is an old article. Lol.
Tuition is indeed much higher these days. A close friend’s child goes to one of the elite schools on this list. The tuition next year is close to $60k. And this year’s exmissions were not stellar…
Another friend whose child was the top student at one of the top 10 elite private schools in NYC had very disappointing exmissions this year. The child got wait-listed at all Ivies. The parents are furious… He might end up going to University of Chicago :oops:
The parents are thinking of transferring their younger child to one of the selective public high schools in the city
Woule be very happy with Chicago.
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Re: Evaluating private school

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James123 wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 1:21 pm [snip…]
Tuition is indeed much higher these days. A close friend’s child goes to one of the elite schools on this list. The tuition next year is close to $60k. And this year’s exmissions were not stellar…
Another friend whose child was the top student at one of the top 10 elite private schools in NYC had very disappointing exmissions this year. The child got wait-listed at all Ivies. The parents are furious… He might end up going to University of Chicago :oops:
The parents are thinking of transferring their younger child to one of the selective public high schools in the city
Tbh, a child who applies to all of the Ivies deserves what the child gets. Nobody who has put thought into it thinks they are a fit for all of the Ivies. Could two schools be more dissimilar than Brown and Cornell? My son, for example, loved Yale and hated Harvard. It was visceral. I’m sure other students felt the opposite.

Applying to all Ivies is probably a publicity stunt (clipping: Local Student Gains Acceptance To 8 Ivies). I’m surprised that the “elite private school” played along, and if (as I suspect) the applications went against their recommendations, I don’t doubt that subtle and deniable sabotage occurred. HYPMS don’t play that game, and frankly neither do lesser schools. I would not expect the guidance counselor to be happy trying to maintain their relationship with the Admissions Office if they oversaw the multiple letters of recommendation.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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To the OP,
Hoity Toity is in Illinois
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by nigel_ht »

James123 wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 1:21 pm Another friend whose child was the top student at one of the top 10 elite private schools in NYC had very disappointing exmissions this year. The child got wait-listed at all Ivies. The parents are furious… He might end up going to University of Chicago :oops:
The parents are thinking of transferring their younger child to one of the selective public high schools in the city
Yah, that’s what I was told happens…

As far as University of Chicago goes…some folks can’t get past branding…not sure why’d anyone would pick Brown over Chicago…
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by nigel_ht »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 2:27 pm
James123 wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 1:21 pm [snip…]
Tuition is indeed much higher these days. A close friend’s child goes to one of the elite schools on this list. The tuition next year is close to $60k. And this year’s exmissions were not stellar…
Another friend whose child was the top student at one of the top 10 elite private schools in NYC had very disappointing exmissions this year. The child got wait-listed at all Ivies. The parents are furious… He might end up going to University of Chicago :oops:
The parents are thinking of transferring their younger child to one of the selective public high schools in the city
Tbh, a child who applies to all of the Ivies deserves what the child gets. Nobody who has put thought into it thinks they are a fit for all of the Ivies. Could two schools be more dissimilar than Brown and Cornell? My son, for example, loved Yale and hated Harvard. It was visceral. I’m sure other students felt the opposite.

Applying to all Ivies is probably a publicity stunt (clipping: Local Student Gains Acceptance To 8 Ivies). I’m surprised that the “elite private school” played along, and if (as I suspect) the applications went against their recommendations, I don’t doubt that subtle and deniable sabotage occurred. HYPMS don’t play that game, and frankly neither do lesser schools. I would not expect the guidance counselor to be happy trying to maintain their relationship with the Admissions Office if they oversaw the multiple letters of recommendation.
You apply to all the ivies because you aren’t sure if you can get into any.

And they all take common app so it’s just a few extra essays…why wouldn’t you apply to all of them? Unless you are an Olympian or giving TED talks (and maybe not even then), all of these schools are reach schools because the admit rates are so low.

You don’t have to accept if you don’t want to.

And why would the counselor care? He or she already is dealing with parents too stupid to realize Univ of Chicago is a great school generally ranked above the lower ivies. Can you imagine if Mr Top Student didn’t end up in any elite uni because he only applied to a few schools?

You know what Brown and Cornell have in common?

Backup status for HYPMS.
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by TomatoTomahto »

nigel_ht wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 3:26 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 2:27 pm
James123 wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 1:21 pm [snip…]
Tuition is indeed much higher these days. A close friend’s child goes to one of the elite schools on this list. The tuition next year is close to $60k. And this year’s exmissions were not stellar…
Another friend whose child was the top student at one of the top 10 elite private schools in NYC had very disappointing exmissions this year. The child got wait-listed at all Ivies. The parents are furious… He might end up going to University of Chicago :oops:
The parents are thinking of transferring their younger child to one of the selective public high schools in the city
Tbh, a child who applies to all of the Ivies deserves what the child gets. Nobody who has put thought into it thinks they are a fit for all of the Ivies. Could two schools be more dissimilar than Brown and Cornell? My son, for example, loved Yale and hated Harvard. It was visceral. I’m sure other students felt the opposite.

Applying to all Ivies is probably a publicity stunt (clipping: Local Student Gains Acceptance To 8 Ivies). I’m surprised that the “elite private school” played along, and if (as I suspect) the applications went against their recommendations, I don’t doubt that subtle and deniable sabotage occurred. HYPMS don’t play that game, and frankly neither do lesser schools. I would not expect the guidance counselor to be happy trying to maintain their relationship with the Admissions Office if they oversaw the multiple letters of recommendation.
You apply to all the ivies because you aren’t sure if you can get into any.

And they all take common app so it’s just a few extra essays…why wouldn’t you apply to all of them? Unless you are an Olympian or giving TED talks (and maybe not even then), all of these schools are reach schools because the admit rates are so low.

You don’t have to accept if you don’t want to.

And why would the counselor care? He or she already is dealing with parents too stupid to realize Univ of Chicago is a great school generally ranked above the lower ivies. Can you imagine if Mr Top Student didn’t end up in any elite uni because he only applied to a few schools?

You know what Brown and Cornell have in common?

Backup status for HYPMS.
“It’s just a few extra essays.” Maybe, but they do read them and expect something non-generic. Maybe you can pass off one free style essay, but they invariably have a “Why Yale/Harvard/etc” essay. My son’s acceptance made specific mention of a point in his essay; I know that’s a marketing gimmick but it was not a light-weight response.

The counselor cares because her relationship with top schools’ AO is her ticket to continued employment and entree to private college counseling, which is very lucrative.

I take your point about Chicago; FIL and step-FIL taught there (many many years ago) and thought very highly of it.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
DVMResident
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by DVMResident »

A deciding factor for us is the private school was open many more days the public school due to the pandemic. Huge difference. It might be worth asking how many days they were closed/remote last two years and compare that answer to the public school. There’s chatter of more masking coming up again in my state. We’re still holding up in private one more year.

I haven’t read the whole thread to see if this factor has been covered.
sawhorse
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by sawhorse »

livesoft wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 2:49 pm When we evaluated a private school we asked to see where graduating seniors went to college. It turned out they went to the exact same places as the nearby public school seniors. Really no difference at all. That speaks to the demographics of all the parents more than anything else.

It is also very likely that the schools in the area recruit from the same group of qualified instructors.
In New York City, several private high schools have loads of kids who are there because they couldn't pass the test for the exam-based magnet public schools (Stuyvesant, Bronx Science, Brooklyn Tech, et al). The private high schools send a large portion of their students to elite private colleges, whereas kids in the public magnet schools often go to SUNY or CUNY for college.

It isn't that the students or the level of education at the magnet public schools is inferior. Rather, approximately half of the students at the magnet public schools come from households in poverty, and about 3/4 come from immigrant households where there is often pressure on the children to stay close to home for college, as the children serve as translators, babysitters for younger siblings, and free labor at family owned businesses. Meanwhile the private school parents are often legacies and/or are able to pay full price for expensive colleges. My point is that college outcomes may be a reflection of the parents' socio-economic status as much as a reflection of the schools' ability to prepare students for college.
Last edited by sawhorse on Fri May 20, 2022 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
sawhorse
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by sawhorse »

Krui24 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 2:35 pm
That said, I send my eldest kid to a fancy private school. In her case it's mostly based on her needing extra care for a health issue. My other two kids are in a 'gifted' program in public school and it's FREE! I love that.
A family friend sent her daughter to a private high school after the daughter developed some health problems in her sophomore year. The local public school district was totally unaccommodating whereas the private school provided a lot more support and flexibility. Her son stayed at the local high school. It worked out well for both children.
James123
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by James123 »

gips wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:17 am - One of my partners lived in a school district with one of the best public high schools in the country. He told me his favorite part of the month was writing the tuition check because he was so happy with the education/experience they were receiving.
- We lived in a nyc suburb with one of the best public schools in the country (top 1%) and a graduating class of ~125 kids. The top 10-20% had excellent admissions, the top 30-40% were admitted to top 20-35 schools. So pretty good, right? I worked with a woman who sent her kids to the top boarding school in NJ and she sent me their admission list, seemed like their top 10% went right to princeton and the bottom half were getting into great schools.

I

good luck!
Are you referring to Lawrenceville School?
Warm regards, | James
bearcub
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by bearcub »

Went to public H.S. in an inner city. Ranked low in my state. Most went on to blue collar jobs like myself. My two friends who went to private H.S and on to good colleges + became wealthy. They made better choices and worked hard and sacrificed. No there parent were far from wealthy, they promoted embracing education. Nothing wrong with blue collar jobs. People make choices everyday...live with them. Best wishes.
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