Being Frugal

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
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BHInvestor
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Being Frugal

Post by BHInvestor »

Hey Folks, I have been a long time lurker in this forum. As I have learnt more (in this forum), I have understood the essence of living below ones means and cutting down on non-essential stuff. In the last 2 - 3 years, my salary has grown significantly higher however being frugal is something that I have started to accept as my way of life. I'm constantly looking for cheaper alternatives (including used apparels for my kids) and sometimes my dad/wife feel that I'm being overly stingy. I love my 10yr car more than ever and my outfit has been reduced to just a handful of shorts and T-shirts. Sometimes I feel alienated due to my frugal decisions however I feel sometimes guilty with the decisions made for my wife/kids. I'm sure that my family will be in a much better position than we are currently however it is going to take time. I'm checking in with my fellow BogleHeads if this is something normal.
delamer
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by delamer »

You shouldn’t be making financial decisions FOR your wife; you should be making such decisions in conjunction WITH your wife.

It’s important to save, but not to the detriment of your intimate relationships.

Arrive at a level of savings that you & your wife are comfortable will allow you to meet your mutually-agreed-upon goals.

Then you can spend the rest, guilt-free.
One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not. - Alexandre Dumas, fils
dvvader
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by dvvader »

There’s a difference between being frugal and being cheap.
Bogleheads® emphasize regular saving, broad diversification, and sticking to one's investment plan regardless of market conditions.
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retired@50
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by retired@50 »

What percentage of your income are you saving?

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WhiteMaxima
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by WhiteMaxima »

Being frugal is to cut waste. It is a very habit for BH.
Californiastate
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by Californiastate »

Do you have a financial plan? Can you justify your frugality with hard numbers? If not, maybe you’re being too extreme. I don’t believe this forum allows medical advise or marriage counseling.
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by mykesc2022 »

We live well below our means and were frugal. But we didnt really deny ourself anything (within reason) while we worked. Here is how we did it:

First, we did a real budget of the essentials. What it costs to just live. Mortgage, utilities, insurance, grocery, subscriptions, etc.etc. That was a number. Let's say it was $3K per month.

Second, If we earned $11K take home, then we knew we had $8K per month available for investments and savings. We decided on that amount based on short and longer term goals. Mainly larger purchases, timing of retirement, EFs (inner and outer) and we put that money to work for us. Say $6K per month for all that.

Third, that difference between $8K less the $6K ($2K) was just left in the checking account. That was there for buying things of enjoyment, necessity, or just because we wanted it. Whatever we didnt use, was swept into the investment account at the end of the month as we started all over again next month.

That way, we always knew we had the living expenses covered, plus the investment and savings we needed, a slush fund (the $2K) that we rarely used more than half. So we felt we had all bases covered.
Last edited by mykesc2022 on Sun May 15, 2022 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
secondopinion
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by secondopinion »

If you were single, then being as frugal as you want is your choice. But you are married with children; they have their lives to live as well. They might not agree with your practices. The spouse is the one person you should be speaking with about this; you really should not ask for second opinions here until you have asked and they agree to ask here.
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YeahBuddy
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by YeahBuddy »

Could you explain how you feel alienated?

Being frugal is ok to an extent. But if it's impacting quality of life, then I would consider changing your habits.

My goal is to keep a 4-6 month EF and try to max retirement accounts, but also enjoy the fruits of my labor. I'd rather spend some :moneybag now on my kids, wife, family, and watch them enjoy now in the moment rather than to be ultra cheap just to retire early in decades with a slightly bigger account balance. Also the wife should be able to make whatever reasonable decisions she wants to make and as the kids age they may want/need things and making their own decisions is part of growing up.

The fact that you say you have only a handful of shirts and shorts seems unusual. You must be doing laundry constantly. I think you're realizing you're going over the top with this frugality mission.
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Fortune
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by Fortune »

ForTheLongHaul
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by ForTheLongHaul »

BHInvestor wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:46 pm Hey Folks, I have been a long time lurker in this forum. As I have learnt more (in this forum), I have understood the essence of living below ones means and cutting down on non-essential stuff. In the last 2 - 3 years, my salary has grown significantly higher however being frugal is something that I have started to accept as my way of life. I'm constantly looking for cheaper alternatives (including used apparels for my kids) and sometimes my dad/wife feel that I'm being overly stingy. I love my 10yr car more than ever and my outfit has been reduced to just a handful of shorts and T-shirts. Sometimes I feel alienated due to my frugal decisions however I feel sometimes guilty with the decisions made for my wife/kids. I'm sure that my family will be in a much better position than we are currently however it is going to take time. I'm checking in with my fellow BogleHeads if this is something normal.
Sit down with your spouse and make a budget. My frugal father tried to beat that into my head when I was a younger man, and I of course rejected that advice thinking it was irrelevant to me, but more so restrictive and an obstacle in the life I wanted to live.

Then I got married and we both took our respective parents advice and made a budget, albeit fluid and often tweaked, but what I first thought would be constructive has been liberating.
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by LadyGeek »

This thread is now in the Personal Consumer Issues forum (how you spend your money and your time).

Also see: What frugal thing did you do today?
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JoeRetire
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by JoeRetire »

BHInvestor wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:46 pmSometimes I feel alienated due to my frugal decisions however I feel sometimes guilty with the decisions made for my wife/kids. I'm sure that my family will be in a much better position than we are currently however it is going to take time. I'm checking in with my fellow BogleHeads if this is something normal.
(shrug)

I've never felt "alienated" due to my financial decisions, so it wouldn't be "something normal" for me.
Forcing my children to wear only used clothes wouldn't be normal for me.
Having a wardrobe consisting solely of a handful of shorts and t-shirts wouldn't be normal for me.
Having a 10 year old car would be normal for me.

Your best bet is to communicate with your wife. If she's happy, everything is fine. If not, consider that you may have crossed over the line and some compromising is in order.
Last edited by JoeRetire on Mon May 16, 2022 8:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by sureshoe »

BHInvestor wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:46 pm In the last 2 - 3 years, my salary has grown significantly higher however being frugal is something that I have started to accept as my way of life. I'm constantly looking for cheaper alternatives (including used apparels for my kids) and sometimes my dad/wife feel that I'm being overly stingy.

I love my 10yr car more than ever and my outfit has been reduced to just a handful of shorts and T-shirts. Sometimes I feel alienated due to my frugal decisions however I feel sometimes guilty with the decisions made for my wife/kids.
You need to decide if you're "frugal" or "cheap". Frugal is good. Cheap is bad.

Here is the way you know: When you limit spending and it impacts you, you're just frugal. If you are impacting other people, you're cheap.

Example: Going to a restaurant on discount day, ordering the special with a water - so you pay $5 for a full meal, that's frugal. Leaving the waitress a $1 tip on a meal that should have been $15 is cheap.

You have to decide personally if you're being "cheap". I PERSONALLY think that making my kids wear used clothes feels cheap (depending on their age). Are you causing them unnecessary grief. I'm not saying go buy Abercrombie (or whatever is popular). Driving an old car, assuming it's not an embarrassing piece of junk seems fine. Same with your clothes, if you're fine with it, and assuming you're not wearing stuff that is nasty and embarrassing the family.

And before people seize on "embarrassing" and "not caring what people think", sure. Part of life is being in a community. Yes, we want to be around non-judgmental friends, etc. I wear mostly generic cheap clothes, but I wouldn't wear old ratty clothing. I drive a 13 year old car, but I would truck around in a hunk with rust and bumpers falling off. There is some level of standards each person has to decide on.

But ultimately it's personal you don't owe your kids the newest and best, but you have to decide if you're unnecessarily depriving them just to build a giant bank account. Same with your wife - if she's telling you she feels you're unnecessarily frugal, she might be feeling a negative impact, which means you're being cheap. But it's too personal to solve on a message board.
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daleddm
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by daleddm »

It feels to me like some of the more memorable and enjoyably challenging times along the way have included the searching for "cheap" -- yes, including used ... inexpensive finds of goods, everything from clothing to furniture to cars.

The need for all new all the time is a marketing thang (duh). The world is awash in goods. Beyond that, it's even seen as stylish in some circles to be buying clothes from consignment stores.

Then again, there's the proverb "the cheap man pays twice" so you live and learn where to draw the line. Junky worn out tools a good example that drove me crazy in my own parents over-the-top frugality later in their lives.

As to the worries about providing for children, unless taken to obvious extremes, kids are oblivious - weren't you?

Finally, being careful in some areas means being able to feel better about being more spendy in others. Buy the six dollar strawberries, fly bidness class going overseas when it isn't totally ridiculous to do so.
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by Sandtrap »

BHInvestor wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:46 pm Hey Folks, I have been a long time lurker in this forum. As I have learnt more (in this forum), I have understood the essence of living below ones means and cutting down on non-essential stuff. In the last 2 - 3 years, my salary has grown significantly higher however being frugal is something that I have started to accept as my way of life. I'm constantly looking for cheaper alternatives (including used apparels for my kids) and sometimes my dad/wife feel that I'm being overly stingy. I love my 10yr car more than ever and my outfit has been reduced to just a handful of shorts and T-shirts. Sometimes I feel alienated due to my frugal decisions however I feel sometimes guilty with the decisions made for my wife/kids. I'm sure that my family will be in a much better position than we are currently however it is going to take time. I'm checking in with my fellow BogleHeads if this is something normal.
To OP:
(per forum guidelines, actionable personal financial matters are inseperable from life, but are best presented with actionable and substantive input: onward).

Much as life and finances, et al, do not fit neatly or ridgidly between the boundaries of a "flight plan" or "spreadsheet", so do the comprehensive dynamic between yourself, your "Self", your family, your spouse; in lifestyle integrated with a budget and finances; and the perceptions and expectations we bring "toward" others, etc.

Conduct and "decision making" (influencing or demanding of others, overt or tacit), is far different when it impedes on others VS just our self within our self. That being said, the onus of responsibility to maintain harmony and peace in a family unit, and relationship, "as it integrates with personal finance (per forum lines and laws)" is fully your own.

Actionably:
1. Do for yourself and for your "self" as far as lifestyle, budget, finances, etc, only what effects yourself, and not others. It is your own journey to take.

2. "Your" family. . . . . .is in harmony, with no one superceding another, nor controlling the "group". So. . . . again. . . #1 above.
It goes beyond what is spent or not spent, budgeted or not budgeted, or the materialism of the cost of a "T" Shirt.

3. Have "a family" not "your family". Why make decisions "for others and feel guilty"? Question that metric?

Do be proactive and post for a portfolio review in forum format for senior very experienced portfolio reviewers to input if you have a sound long term financial strategy.

4. "Frugality" and "Normal" (as OP you mention) is highly subjective with every person to thier own definitions and ways and experiences. Thus, like onions, the opinionizationonions of the "group" should not be your measure of things.
However, it has often been said, "measure one's "self" by the reactions of others, though that can always and is argued.

Actionably: focus on a balanced budget, spending, and life and family rewards that sound financial actions produce.

Like this:
Asking Portfolio Questions
https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewt ... =1&t=6212

To OP:
Again, mentioning things of "life" in most all matters is inseperable from discussions of "personal financial strategy" and "porfolio index funds" and a comprehensive approach is a good thing VS getting caught up in life in a spreadsheet.

I hope this is helpful, actionable, and substantive.
j :D

dis laimer: a zillion paths and ways to do personal investment finance and financial planning integrated with the matters of life, this is one of a zillion opinionizations possible.
Last edited by Sandtrap on Mon May 16, 2022 9:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
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getthatmarshmallow
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by getthatmarshmallow »

Divorce is more expensive than kids' clothing.

I'm only half kidding. The important thing isn't the dollar amount but whether it works for you and your family - and your wife is telling you it's not.
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by ROIGuy »

delamer wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:01 pm You shouldn’t be making financial decisions FOR your wife; you should be making such decisions in conjunction WITH your wife.

It’s important to save, but not to the detriment of your intimate relationships.

Arrive at a level of savings that you & your wife are comfortable will allow you to meet your mutually-agreed-upon goals.

Then you can spend the rest, guilt-free.
+1
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by mmmodem »

BHInvestor wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:46 pmSometimes I feel alienated due to my frugal decisions however I feel sometimes guilty with the decisions made for my wife/kids. I'm sure that my family will be in a much better position than we are currently however it is going to take time. I'm checking in with my fellow BogleHeads if this is something normal.
The honest answer? Don't. Don't feel guilty. I don't. Many helpful replies here identify cheap versus frugal. Agreed, there's a big difference. Me? I just don't care. My cheapness and frugality bought my family our financial security. I grew up poor where being frugal was not enough, you had to go way past it to cheap just to survive. It was not a choice. It was a necessity.

So how do I handle it? When we discuss buying a particular thing, my wife may tell me I'm being cheap and to stop. I stop. I don't feel guilty. I take it to the extreme and she is my gate. If she is not there then I will maintain cheapness and I am perfectly fine with it. I don't know if it is BH normal but again... I don't care. I make fun of family for wasting money on their Teslas and overseas vacation. They in turn make fun of my 13 year old vehicle and free swag t-shirts I get from conventions. Feel confident in what you do. Good luck, OP.
Dave55
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by Dave55 »

It is all about "balance". Save $$ but also let loose sometimes and enjoy your $$. My mother who was on her deathbed at 55 told my older brother to spend money and enjoy his money. My mother was very frugal, maybe overly so.

Dave
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Sandtrap
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by Sandtrap »

Dave55 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 9:16 am It is all about "balance". Save $$ but also let loose sometimes and enjoy your $$. My mother who was on her deathbed at 55 told my older brother to spend money and enjoy his money. My mother was very frugal, maybe overly so.

Dave
+1

Wise words from real life.
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sad2
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by sad2 »

mmmodem wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 9:11 am
BHInvestor wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:46 pmSometimes I feel alienated due to my frugal decisions however I feel sometimes guilty with the decisions made for my wife/kids. I'm sure that my family will be in a much better position than we are currently however it is going to take time. I'm checking in with my fellow BogleHeads if this is something normal.
The honest answer? Don't. Don't feel guilty. I don't. Many helpful replies here identify cheap versus frugal. Agreed, there's a big difference. Me? I just don't care. My cheapness and frugality bought my family our financial security. I grew up poor where being frugal was not enough, you had to go way past it to cheap just to survive. It was not a choice. It was a necessity.

So how do I handle it? When we discuss buying a particular thing, my wife may tell me I'm being cheap and to stop. I stop. I don't feel guilty. I take it to the extreme and she is my gate. If she is not there then I will maintain cheapness and I am perfectly fine with it. I don't know if it is BH normal but again... I don't care. I make fun of family for wasting money on their Teslas and overseas vacation. They in turn make fun of my 13 year old vehicle and free swag t-shirts I get from conventions. Feel confident in what you do. Good luck, OP.
+1 Whatever you decide to do, own your decision.
wolf359
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by wolf359 »

BHInvestor wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:46 pm Hey Folks, I have been a long time lurker in this forum. As I have learnt more (in this forum), I have understood the essence of living below ones means and cutting down on non-essential stuff. In the last 2 - 3 years, my salary has grown significantly higher however being frugal is something that I have started to accept as my way of life. I'm constantly looking for cheaper alternatives (including used apparels for my kids) and sometimes my dad/wife feel that I'm being overly stingy. I love my 10yr car more than ever and my outfit has been reduced to just a handful of shorts and T-shirts. Sometimes I feel alienated due to my frugal decisions however I feel sometimes guilty with the decisions made for my wife/kids. I'm sure that my family will be in a much better position than we are currently however it is going to take time. I'm checking in with my fellow BogleHeads if this is something normal.
If the decision is about spending choices for yourself (aka 10 yr car or own clothes) then frugal away.

I also look at systemic decisions where one little choice can make a long term sustained impact on expenses. Examples: Switching to 100% LED lights meant that I'm not yelling at everyone to turn off the lights after they leave a room. Ensuring that the house is insulated and setting up a smart thermostat meant that we're keeping fuel costs down. My spouse wants a new car when I'd rather buy used -- the compromise is that if we buy new we hold onto it for at least 10 years. You can bet that as soon as we hit year 10 we're guaranteed to be car shopping, but it works for us. The fact that my own car is 16 years old and going strong mainly affects me. Getting air conditioning/heating expenses under control, then selecting the right appliances (especially water heater, refrigerator, and washer) has a huge impact on budget but everybody else in the house just adjusts to them.

Beyond that, I make sure we pay ourselves first so that our retirement and education savings are in place and on track. Since they're automated, they're not visible. Any net paycheck savings are in sinking funds for agreed-upon priorities, like vacations or car replacements. Beyond that, I've learned to step back. My spouse thinks a budget is me trying to control her, so we don't have one. If my spouse wants to get the kids new clothes, we get new clothes. If we're eating out more than I personally would, we eat out. By automating and paying ourselves first, our savings are already built in. If she wants to cut back on the savings, it starts with the more visible ones that she wants also (vacation and car), which is usually just a matter of timing.

By the way, the key to kids clothes is to limit quantity, not quality/newness. They grow so quickly that it is easily possible to outgrow clothes before they have a chance to wear them. My wife's favorite baby clothes are the small cute ones that she remembers them doing things in. Her least favorite ones are the new ones they never got a chance to wear.

The most impactful lifestyle choices are housing, transportation, food, and education. Make the right choices where it counts, and you don't need to extend your frugal nature to impact anyone else.
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Watty
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by Watty »

Sandtrap wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 8:51 am Like this:
Asking Portfolio Questions
viewtopic.php?t=6212
You don't need to post all the details but if you post your general situation and your budget then you may get better feedback. Right now we don't know if you had been a struggling hourly worker who finally got a decent middle class job with benefits, or if you have an ample six figure income.
BHInvestor wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:46 pm I love my 10yr car more than ever and my outfit has been reduced to just a handful of shorts and T-shirts.
As long as it is well maintained there is nothing wrong with a 10 year old car as long as it still fits your needs. If it is a subcompact car that you got when you were single and now you have a spouse and two kids that could be problem. It the car is rusty and has 150k miles on it then it may be time to consider replacing it.

Unless it something like a special sports car then don't even emotionally involved with a car an "love" it. That will cause you to make bad decisions about it and keep it too long.

Having "just a handful of shorts and T-shirts." is excessive.

If you doubled the number of t-shirts and shorts that you have they would all last twice as long so there is little extra cost to that over the long term. If the t-shirts have printing on them then it will seem a bit odd to be wearing the same shirt frequently.

Years ago my dad always wore a white shirt and tie to the office. There was one advantage to that in that people that did that only needed a very limited number of white shirts since they all looked the same. For the most part those days are long gone.
Tdubs
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by Tdubs »

A little surprised at the comments on clothes. Used isn't necessarily inferior, in fact it often provides access to high end stuff you wouldn't buy otherwise.

Having lived in a small town where Goodwill was the only clothes option, I realized (wife too), "why didn't I do this before?" Never owned a good leather jacket till the $25 job I pulled off the rack.
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by MathWizard »

My goal had always been top have enough savings to retire somewhere around 65 with the same net income as before retirement.
(Net meaning after income taxes and any work benefits like healthcare, so the standard of living would stay the same.)

Now, even with a higher standard of living, I will be retiring soon having met the goal. If you are meeting the goal, you can ease up.

When just out of college, first child born within a month of graduation, paying off loans and saving for a down-payment, I was pretty frugal.
Nobody went hungry and always had good medical care, but vacations were to visit parents, and yes, some new/some used clothes for
the baby/toddler. Hand-me-downs from relatives, who themselves had hand-me-downs for their kids, and were paying it forward.

Once the loans were paid off, and we had enough for a down-payment, I could ease up. My salary had risen.
I was saving for college for the now 2 kids, but we could go on vacations other than to visit family.
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by bengal22 »

I don't believe being a successful bogleheads equates to living a frugal life or living "below" my means. For me executing a good financial plan has enabled me to live a life with new cars, nice houses, and other perks. I prefer to think of it as living "within" my means.
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PeninsulaPerson
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by PeninsulaPerson »

BHInvestor wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:46 pm
I'm constantly looking for cheaper alternatives (including used apparels for my kids) ...

I love my 10yr car more than ever ...

Regarding your kids, it's (a lot!) different if they're 2 or 12, boys or girls.

For a 12-year-old girl (which I was years ago!), used clothes could be the essence of chic -or- incredibly humiliating!

Possibly 12-year-old boys don't give a hoot!

As an adult, I love "used clothes" and really miss a great consignment store that used to be here in the Boston area. Oh, the bargains I got and the $$$ I saved.

As to a 10-year-old car, for me and my husband, that's still a "new" car! (We had our first Honda together for 16 years before it unfortunately passed away! Still miss it! A friend's son is driving my friend's father's 22-year-old truck!) If you love your car and it's running fine, I don't even see how that could be a too-frugal issue! Unless your wife has some reasonable beef with the car!

As to your wife and your father, only you know if their criticisms are right on or way off. If they're right on, letting them be your "regulators" will probably save you a lot of guilt!
mamster
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by mamster »

For my family, being frugal is about making wise choices about the ongoing big-ticket items and spending essentially whatever we want on everything else.

That means:

Small apartment
No cars
Public school
Aggressively saving for retirement

And also means:

International vacations
Buying the clothes we want
Donating generously
Spending freely on hobbies and interest such as concerts, theater, and musical instruments

We are not high income, and the first set of choices unlocks the second one. Not only does the tradeoff suit everyone in the family, but it means we don't have to keep negotiating over where to be frugal. It's baked into our lifestyle. I'm not saying that our set of frugal choices is right for everyone, but unless you're (a) lower-income, or (b) talking about whether or not to buy Gucci, is clothing really a big deal?

Look for "cheaper alternatives" on the big stuff and you may not have to pay attention to or argue with anyone about the small stuff.
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by KlangFool »

BHInvestor wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:46 pm Hey Folks, I have been a long time lurker in this forum. As I have learnt more (in this forum), I have understood the essence of living below ones means and cutting down on non-essential stuff. In the last 2 - 3 years, my salary has grown significantly higher however being frugal is something that I have started to accept as my way of life. I'm constantly looking for cheaper alternatives (including used apparels for my kids) and sometimes my dad/wife feel that I'm being overly stingy. I love my 10yr car more than ever and my outfit has been reduced to just a handful of shorts and T-shirts. Sometimes I feel alienated due to my frugal decisions however I feel sometimes guilty with the decisions made for my wife/kids. I'm sure that my family will be in a much better position than we are currently however it is going to take time. I'm checking in with my fellow BogleHeads if this is something normal.
BHInvestor,

The goal is not to being frugal. The goal is to save enough money. They are two different things.

A) If you do "Pay Yourself First" saving method, aka save first and spend later, why do you need to look for cheaper alternative and so on?

B) If you spend first and save later, how does being cheap on several things matters?

C) Focus on your big items: house, car,and college education. The rest does not really matter that much.

D) What is your actual saving rate in terms of your annual expense? 100%?

"I love my 10yr car more than ever and my outfit has been reduced to just a handful of shorts and T-shirts. "

E) Sorry to tell you that, as per my usual observation, that is an indication of you do not save a lot of money. Folks with high saving rate do not think of those things.

F) I save 1 year of expense every year. I am not frugal. I only buy new car.

KlangFool
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by KlangFool »

OP,

1) My income peers drive old car and pack their lunches every day.

2) I buy new car and eat out regularly.

3) Do you think that my income peers are frugal? And, do they save a lot of money?

4) They hardly save any money because they overspent on their houses.

5) Meanwhile, I bought a cheaper house and save 1 year of expense every year.

KlangFool
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Atgard
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by Atgard »

You've gotten some good replies here. To me the key is "Is this frugal decision causing negative impacts?" Are your wife or kids upset? Are the kids getting made fun of for wearing ratty clothes? Is your car breaking down and ruining a family outing? Is the thermostat set so high/low everyone is sweating or freezing all day? Etc.

There are many frugal things that cause me no discomfort or sense of loss. Not having fancy clothes, watch, jewelry, etc. I don't miss them or feel like I'm depriving myself of anything important. But I don't wear ratty clothes (OK I do around the house!) or keep a car if it's unreliable. I had my last one for 16 years but it was reliable and in great shape.

On the other hand, there are some cutbacks that would affect quality of life, irritate myself and my family or my friends, and maybe cost more in the long run (by needing to replace the cheap thing with a better thing anyway). I try to avoid those sorts of cutbacks.

It is specific to each person and family. Perhaps you really enjoy your car and it's important to you? If it fits in the budget, go for it. But others just want to get from point A to B as reliably & economically as possible and a nicer car would be wasted on them. Instead, they may have some other hobby or enjoy nicer clothes or whatever. Spend (if your budget allows) on the things that bring joy, save time & hassle, provide positive experiences with family & friends, etc., and skip the stuff that you & your family won't miss.

The hard part would be if you have a spouse or kids who think they "need" ALL the fancy, expensive, frivolous things that companies spend billions advertising that we need (i.e., they want the fancy car AND clothes AND expensive hobby AND trips AND the maid AND big house AND fancy meals, etc.). But there's a big middle ground between "only used clothes" and "but daddy I NEED another $1,000 purse!"
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by Broken Man 1999 »

OP, don't be like some posters who lament they were uber-savers during their career, but now have trouble enjoying the fruits of their labor in retirement.

If you MUST be very frugal, or even cheap, at least be generous with your loved ones.

The money I spend on others brings me more joy than the money I spend on myself. At the same time, I don't hesitate to spend money on my pursuits.

During our working years DW and I lived paycheck to paycheck. Our savings/investments, mortgage/auto loan (if we had one) were already removed from our paychecks before we received our checks. Other than paying a few smaller bills we were free to spend the remainder for our leisure activities or other discretionary spending.

Worked splendidly for us. Life is for living.

BTW, I wore enough hand-me-downs as a child to last my lifetime. I never wore used again. DDs never wore used, unless they traded with a friend, or with each other. If one stays away from designer labels, quality clothing is very cheap today.

Broken Man 1999
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LittleMaggieMae
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by LittleMaggieMae »

To the OP: It might be time to come up with a new definition of "frugality" for you and your family.

Being "frugal" and how you do it - changes over time - just like how your financial plans change over time. (example: when young and starting out - using a savings account and other low interest bearing financial vehicles might make the most sense - to help protect that little pile of money you are building. but we all know you don't want to keep ALL your money in those vehicles for your entire life...as the little pile of money grows and as one's work life becomes more stable - it's important to start investing some (or all) of new savings. )

Frugality is like that too. For example: being frugal when you are literally living paycheck to paycheck and trying to build your EF (when any extra expense takes away from the EF money) is very different than being frugal when you are saving 20% of your income, have a large EF, are saving for future big expenses (car, house, vacation, holiday spending, etc) and you aren't worried about being able to pay this months bills and ordering a take out pizza on Thursday night isn't going to derail any of your financial plans.

When you have met all your basic financial goals - being frugal looks more like "making choices on how best to SPEND the money you have allocated to spending" rather than "making choices about how best to NOT SPEND money".

I would recommend going over your finances (or your spending plan) and coming up with categories (say clothing for kids, wife, myself based on your OP) and giving those categories a "budget amount". It might change over time. I'm making this up I have no idea if this is valid or not - it's a nice round number: say you allocate $1000.00 per kid per school year for clothes/shoes/accessories/whatever. Being frugal means making purchasing choices that keep you with in the budget. So, kid can opt for a 1K Designer BackPack (and then make due with the clothes/stuff they have (becasue the REALLY value having that BackPack -- or the kid can get creative and maybe find that Designer BackPack for $500.00 and then spend the remaining $500 on other stuff they want and need.

I'd maybe also suggest something like an "allowance" - there's X amount of money to spend (or save up) for the month - the goal is to get to decide how best to spend that money - how do you get the biggest bang for the money? It's not really about "deprivation" or being cheap - it's about learning what you each "value" and why you "value" it. Be aware that values change over time. This also helps with getting a feel for "what is good enough" and can help with feeling 'satisfied' or 'content' with what you have.

Focus on the trade offs between nice things: as in sure we can have the 300K vehicle - but we won't be able to take as nice of vacations for the foreseeable future. <-- I made that up - i have no idea on car prices or vacation prices. Because - literally you cannot have it all. you want to spend your money on what you value. "Family time" isn't sitting at home in the dark eating cold beans out of a can... find some middle ground.
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by LittleMaggieMae »

Another thing about spending money and being frugal and about "values" - I "value" using less "resources" - like electricity, water, natural gas. When I was younger I couldn't afford the more expensive "energy star" appliances - but over time as my income went up and I was faced with buying appliances (or a furnace or a roof or a water heater) I opted to spend more on "energy star" replacements when it made sense and were the best fit for the job the new thing needed to do.

So, yes I spent more money up front (doesn't feel frugal) - but it fits into my value of having an energy efficient home. I spend less on energy especially when energy costs rise or spike without having to make dramatic changes (not use the AC or lowering the heat to uncomfortable levels).
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by Tdubs »

KlangFool wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 11:00 am OP,

1) My income peers drive old car and pack their lunches every day.

2) I buy new car and eat out regularly.

3) Do you think that my income peers are frugal? And, do they save a lot of money?

4) They hardly save any money because they overspent on their houses.

5) Meanwhile, I bought a cheaper house and save 1 year of expense every year.

KlangFool
I pack my lunch and save more than a year in expenses annually. Saving $100 on a mortgage = saving $100 on eating out.

There are wealthy people who do think about these things. See John D Rockefeller, Warren Buffett, and Dish's Charlie Ergen (who packs his lunch).
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by homebuyer6426 »

It is not other people's place to decide how you spend money that you have earned yourself.

Used clothes are usually like-new. I have found incredible values, such as a complete well-fitting suit for $20.

My father was always frugal. I consider it a positive character trait. His vehicle is over 20 years old and many of his clothes are too. He saves food containers after he eats them and uses them again. At the same time, he is also quite generous with helping his loved ones. Granted, his income has never been very high, so he's not in your shoes.
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ponyboy
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by ponyboy »

Frugal and cheap are the same thing. Im both frugal and cheap, I know from experience.
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by deikel »

To me, being frugal means looking for value - I am a value investor by heart and that extends to all aspects of life.

Personally, I think that's what it should always be, spending money on what you value and get the best return possible. If your family pushes back on it, that's part of the normal process of finding the best value for everyone involved (and not just yourself).

Be aware that people will feel threatened by your choice of life style and they will push back for no other (true) reason then to justify their own more mindless spending (misery loves company)

As such, I would not accept pushback from my dad (it's not his money after all), but of course wife and kids have to be listened to in order to enjoy life.....kids may have to learn the frugal way by watching parents arguing it out.
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by abuss368 »

Dave55 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 9:16 am It is all about "balance". Save $$ but also let loose sometimes and enjoy your $$. My mother who was on her deathbed at 55 told my older brother to spend money and enjoy his money. My mother was very frugal, maybe overly so.

Dave
Excellent lesson in life Dave! Thank you for sharing. Live each day like it is the best!

Best.
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by Normchad »

Mr.BB wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 9:11 am
delamer wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:01 pm You shouldn’t be making financial decisions FOR your wife; you should be making such decisions in conjunction WITH your wife.

It’s important to save, but not to the detriment of your intimate relationships.

Arrive at a level of savings that you & your wife are comfortable will allow you to meet your mutually-agreed-upon goals.

Then you can spend the rest, guilt-free.
+1
+2. Perfect post.
money2churn
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by money2churn »

BHInvestor wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:46 pm Hey Folks, I have been a long time lurker in this forum. As I have learnt more (in this forum), I have understood the essence of living below ones means and cutting down on non-essential stuff. In the last 2 - 3 years, my salary has grown significantly higher however being frugal is something that I have started to accept as my way of life. I'm constantly looking for cheaper alternatives (including used apparels for my kids) and sometimes my dad/wife feel that I'm being overly stingy. I love my 10yr car more than ever and my outfit has been reduced to just a handful of shorts and T-shirts. Sometimes I feel alienated due to my frugal decisions however I feel sometimes guilty with the decisions made for my wife/kids. I'm sure that my family will be in a much better position than we are currently however it is going to take time. I'm checking in with my fellow BogleHeads if this is something normal.

I'm one lucky guy, my wife as a 20yr old car and she still loves it.

I don't believe in cheap, I buy quality(new or "gently used") or I don't buy, tis better to go without.

You should only feel guilty if your wife isn't on board with the plan.
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by sschullo »

Normchad wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 7:57 pm
Mr.BB wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 9:11 am
delamer wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:01 pm You shouldn’t be making financial decisions FOR your wife; you should be making such decisions in conjunction WITH your wife.

It’s important to save, but not to the detriment of your intimate relationships.

Arrive at a level of savings that you & your wife are comfortable will allow you to meet your mutually-agreed-upon goals.

Then you can spend the rest, guilt-free.
+1
+2. Perfect post.
+3
and you might get some ideas about life balance and what you want besides the material things from Mr. Frugal of all time who has millions of followers https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/
Your family might be more with you IF you know where you are going. All they see is "going without" and that's no fun. But if you can explain what this is all about with the end in mind, "quoting from 7 habits...."
You are on the right track because the opposite is terrible, spending and pulling up debt.
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by gips »

once we had kids my wife asked whether it made sense for me to drive ten year old cars since they might be missing important safety improvements. i did some analysis and decided she was right, ten years was too long to own a car especially with young kids and especially since we could easily afford to replace my car more often:

i just googled “car safety advances in the last ten years” and found this article. i havent vetted the article but it may give you a sense of what your sacrificing in terms of safety by driving a ten year old car:

https://carbuyerlabs.com/a-decade-of-sa ... -the-road/

“Can you guess how many airbags were standard on vehicles a decade ago? Most vehicles came with two front airbags, which is a stark contrast to vehicles today that have anywhere between four to ten airbags built into the interior cabin to ensure the safety of the driver and every passenger, whether they are sitting in the front or rear seats. But what else has changed when it comes to safety in the automotive industry? When you go to your used car dealer and start looking for cars with excellent safety features, what do you want most? What are the best safety features to enter the market in the last decade? Well, let’s take a look and see.”
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by ROIGuy »

Here is a great site for reviewing car safety ratings from the insurance institute. You can even review older car models. Complete breakdown of various components effectiveness. Headlights, lower body injuries, roof strength, etc.

https://www.iihs.org/ratings/top-safety-picks
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by RedDog »

delamer wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:01 pm You shouldn’t be making financial decisions FOR your wife; you should be making such decisions in conjunction WITH your wife.

It’s important to save, but not to the detriment of your intimate relationships.

Arrive at a level of savings that you & your wife are comfortable will allow you to meet your mutually-agreed-upon goals.

Then you can spend the rest, guilt-free.
DW and I have been together for 34 years and raised three wonder now adult children. My natural inclination was to pinch pennies/save but my wife was right to insist on spending money to travel, providing living circumstances similar to others in our community, ect.

We eventually learned as part of our budgeting to set a firm but substantial invest goal. When that goal was reached, not a penny more was invested.
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by gips »

I'm much more frugal than my wife, we jointly set a goal of 20% of gross comp for savings and she could spend the rest in any way she saw fit. this worked well until I had some big comp jumps, at which point we set a gross dollar budget for spending and invested the rest.

Now that I'm retired I fight my frugality/cheapness probably 10 times a day. For example, I saved $5 on a chicken the other day by walking to three grocery stores (we live in a city). It's actually a source of unhappiness since it's completely ingrained into my personality and behavior. My father lived through the depression and I modeled his practice, somehow it was completely lost on my brothers.

anyhow op, I'll sum up with this hackneyed but true cliché: happy wife, happy life.

good luck,
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

Frugality is also a more sustainable way to live on this resource-limited planet. I make no apologies for it. There's a lot to be said for being content with less even if you have the financial means to acquire more.
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by Jazztonight »

getthatmarshmallow wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 9:10 am Divorce is more expensive than kids' clothing.
(While perhaps you're speaking half in-jest, here's my response):

In the short run, my own divorce was life-changingly expensive, and left me with virtually nothing.

In the long run, it allowed me to take control of my life and spending decisions, send my children to college, and live sensibly. It also prepared me for my second marriage, which (40+ years later) bears witness to the fact that sometimes divorce is often the best way to go.

Just saying.

Now, back to the topic.
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Re: Being Frugal

Post by stoptothink »

Jazztonight wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 5:15 pm
getthatmarshmallow wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 9:10 am Divorce is more expensive than kids' clothing.
(While perhaps you're speaking half in-jest, here's my response):

In the short run, my own divorce was life-changingly expensive, and left me with virtually nothing.

In the long run, it allowed me to take control of my life and spending decisions, send my children to college, and live sensibly. It also prepared me for my second marriage, which (40+ years later) bears witness to the fact that sometimes divorce is often the best way to go.

Just saying.

Now, back to the topic.
Exact same experience. It completely financially ruined me after nearly a decade of working hard, living like a pauper, and saving everything I could. BUT, I was 30 with ample time to recover. A decade later it was so worth it, in every way (including financially). At this point, a divorce is both the most expensive thing I've ever paid for and probably the best thing I've ever spent money on (from a happiness/QOL standpoint).
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