Long Term Care Insurance

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chw
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by chw »

Early 50s is a good time to consider purchasing LTCI. DW and I did decide to purchase it in our early to mid 50s.
due to reasonably low premiums thru an employer sponsored plan (not subsidized however) that didn’t require a health exam. We were able to customize the daily benefit to be somewhat modest to keep the initial premium lower, as we thought we might be able to self insure most of our need. We also thought having the policy as a backstop would allow us to spend more comfortably in our earlier retirement years, knowing that the policy existed to help with unforeseen LTC costs.

Fast forward 10 years, the initial premium has not increased except for inflation riders we’ve accepted periodically. Combined premiums for DW and I are about $1500/year. We are okay with this at this time.

As a side note, my mom has been receiving monthly payments of nearly 5 figures from a LTC policy sold to her when she was 62 (currently age 86). The claim payments allow her to live quite comfortably in an Assisted Living facility that has 24/7 on site nursing care available to her. The facility has excellent amenities, and top notch dining available to the residents. My Mom did have the assets to possibly self insure for this stage of life, but having the policy has allowed her to receive exceptional care in a top tier care facility (all of it paid for by the LTCI).
WoW2012
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

ncbill wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 4:03 pm

Curious how much that $300k plan WoW2012 sold pays out annually/lifetime.
It was actually a one-time $250K premium. It's a truly "catastrophic plan". It pays practically nothing for the first 36 months (about $3K per month per spouse.) Beginning with the 37th month of care it starts to pay an inflated amount which grows by 5% compound every year from the very first policy year (e.g. . There's no limit on how long it can pay benefits. It'll never run out of LTC benefits.) It's the "high deductible, catastrophic policy" many bogleheads have expressed an interest in. It's out there. You just have to find it. It's easy to qualify for, too. These particular clients had some very challenging health issues that make the probability of needing care for a long time a very real possibility. They would not have been able to qualify for a rich traditional LTCi policy. The $250K was less than 5% of his portfolio. He used the $250K as a way to hedge his bets.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
WoW2012
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

gasdoc wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 7:11 pm [I'll just add that I don't need a policy that tops out at $500,000. I can sell a house or sell equities to cover that. It is the rare (hopefully) catastrophic situation, like 15 years in a memory care unit that I want to insure against, and that kind of insurance is not available.
Yes it is available.
How many times do I have to say it.
Catastrophic long-term care insurance policies are available.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
WoW2012
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

beyou wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 12:23 am We have found that even private pay nursing homes are horrible in our area. Staffing shortages mean no help when needed. Bad food. Assisted Living, there are good options until they can’t meet your care needs.
My MIL's assisted living facility's contract said she could stay there, even if she needed help with all 6 ADL's, as long as the she could be transferred by one person. I thought that was reasonable. We moved her out of the ALF due to COVID. They had zero COVID cases because they stopped all visitation. We moved her into our home so that we could see her and she us.

Her policy paid most of the cost of installing a walk-in shower and a bunch of grab bars everywhere. Her daily benefit was high enough to cover the full cost of a top-notch CNA 8 hours per day. She wasn't bedridden until the last couple of weeks of her life. Sadly, she died only 8 months after she moved in. My wife and I and the CNA were in her bedroom when she passed. Even one of our dogs and a couple of our cats were there. It was a moment I will never forget.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
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Eagle33
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by Eagle33 »

WoW2012 wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 11:01 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 9:44 am
I don't believe that most here would be interested in the 'average LTCi policy' though because the maximum benefit is just too small.

Most here aren't really concerned about $300k of LTC expenses but rather multiples of that.
How to turn $275,000 into $745,000 in 4 years.

My mother-in-law's LTCi policy had $365,000 of benefits when she started using it. She used $275,000 of it before she passed away. That $275,000 of benefits increased her net worth by about $745,000. Here's how:

Since she had the a good LTCi policy, we did not have to rush to sell her rental properties.
We saved over $100,000 of capital gains taxes by not having to sell her properties while she and her husband were alive.
She started receiving care at home, then she moved to an assisted living facility for three years before moving into our home. While in the assisted living facility, the policy covered all of her room and board and care. She didn't have to use her pensions or SS or any of her rental income. She was cash flow positive about $5,000+ every month. We invested that in dividend-paying stocks.
Since she didn't have to sell her investments to pay for her care, the money we did invest grew.... substantially.
The one rental property which she didn't sell gained more than $100,000 in value in the last six months before her death.
And, since we didn't have to sell it before she died we saved a boat load on capital gains on that property.
We invested dividend-paying stocks because, if she exhausted the policy's benefits, we wanted to make sure that her pensions, her SS income, and the dividend income would be enough to cover the full cost of her care, regardless of how long she might live. If we'd had to liquidate her assets from the start, we would not have been able to do that. We would have had to do Medicaid planning and that was something we did NOT want to do. The Medicaid facilities in our area are HORRIBLE compared to the private-pay facilities.
When she passed away we sold the stocks and did not have to pay any capital gains tax because of the step-up in cost basis. Most of the stocks, not all, but most had a substantial gain.
Sounds like the policy did not cover LTC when it was really needed, after assisted living.
WoW2012
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

Eagle33 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:05 am


Sounds like the policy did not cover LTC when it was really needed, after assisted living.
I apologize for the confusion. You may not have read my prior posts about my mother-in-law's policy. Her long-term care insurance policy paid for a home health aide. We had a top notch CNA who charged $35 per hour. The policy covered the full cost for an 8-hour shift. We also needed to have the bathroom modified with a walk-in shower as well as grab bars throughout. Her LTCi policy paid for most of that expense. (We paid for part of that expense because we wanted to upgrade the tile and fixtures.)

Maybe you're under the impression that when someone needs care at home that they need the aide to be there 24/7. That was not the case with my mother-in-law. We did not need an aide 24/7.
Last edited by WoW2012 on Sun May 15, 2022 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
Silk McCue
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by Silk McCue »

Eagle33 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:05 am Sounds like the policy did not cover LTC when it was really needed, after assisted living.
You probably should have kept reading the thread before leaping to this completely erroneous conclusion. You seem to have a predetermined bias. At least read the post just above yours. [OT comment removed by admin LadyGeek]

Cheers
WoW2012
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

Silk McCue wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:18 am
Eagle33 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:05 am Sounds like the policy did not cover LTC when it was really needed, after assisted living.
You probably should have kept reading the thread before leaping to this completely erroneous conclusion. You seem to have a predetermined bias. At least read the post just above yours. [OT comment removed by admin LadyGeek]

Cheers
Thanks, Silk. I just edited my reply because Eagle33 may be under the impression that home care means 24 hours per day care. From your work experience you know that it is very rare for someone to require a home health aide 24 hours per day.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
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Eagle33
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by Eagle33 »

WoW2012 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:20 am
Silk McCue wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:18 am
Eagle33 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:05 am Sounds like the policy did not cover LTC when it was really needed, after assisted living.
You probably should have kept reading the thread before leaping to this completely erroneous conclusion. You seem to have a predetermined bias. At least read the post just above yours. [OT comment removed by admin LadyGeek]

Cheers
Thanks, Silk. I just edited my reply because Eagle33 may be under the impression that home care means 24 hours per day care. From your work experience you know that it is very rare for someone to require a home health aide 24 hours per day.
Glad to hear your mother was covered for a home health aid. But would the policy have covered SNF expenses?
WoW2012
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

Eagle33 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:48 am
WoW2012 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:20 am
Silk McCue wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:18 am
Eagle33 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:05 am Sounds like the policy did not cover LTC when it was really needed, after assisted living.
You probably should have kept reading the thread before leaping to this completely erroneous conclusion. You seem to have a predetermined bias. At least read the post just above yours. [OT comment removed by admin LadyGeek]

Cheers
Thanks, Silk. I just edited my reply because Eagle33 may be under the impression that home care means 24 hours per day care. From your work experience you know that it is very rare for someone to require a home health aide 24 hours per day.
Glad to hear your mother was covered for a home health aid. But would the policy have covered SNF expenses?
Yes. Most long-term care insurance policies purchased since 1997 include benefits for care received at home, in assisted-living facilities, skilled nursing facilities, memory care facilities, adult day care, etc...
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
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Eagle33
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by Eagle33 »

WoW2012 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:51 am
Eagle33 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:48 am
WoW2012 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:20 am
Silk McCue wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:18 am
Eagle33 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:05 am Sounds like the policy did not cover LTC when it was really needed, after assisted living.
You probably should have kept reading the thread before leaping to this completely erroneous conclusion. You seem to have a predetermined bias. At least read the post just above yours. [OT comment removed by admin LadyGeek]

Cheers
Thanks, Silk. I just edited my reply because Eagle33 may be under the impression that home care means 24 hours per day care. From your work experience you know that it is very rare for someone to require a home health aide 24 hours per day.
Glad to hear your mother was covered for a home health aid. But would the policy have covered SNF expenses?
Yes. Most long-term care insurance policies purchased since 1997 include benefits for care received at home, in assisted-living facilities, skilled nursing facilities, memory care facilities, adult day care, etc...
Is there a cap on the total that the policy would pay? I don't mean the daily maximum payment, but there was no limit of years or dollars to continue to pay SNF expenses.
WoW2012
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

Eagle33 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:58 am
Is there a cap on the total that the policy would pay? I don't mean the daily maximum payment, but there was no limit of years or dollars to continue to pay SNF expenses.
If you re-read the post I made (which you quoted in your first reply), I wrote:

"My mother-in-law's LTCi policy had $365,000 of benefits when she started using it. She used $275,000 of it before she passed away. That $275,000 of benefits increased her net worth by about $745,000. Here's how:".....
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
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Eagle33
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by Eagle33 »

WoW2012 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 12:13 pm
Eagle33 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:58 am
Is there a cap on the total that the policy would pay? I don't mean the daily maximum payment, but there was no limit of years or dollars to continue to pay SNF expenses.
If you re-read the post I made (which you quoted in your first reply), I wrote:

"My mother-in-law's LTCi policy had $365,000 of benefits when she started using it. She used $275,000 of it before she passed away. That $275,000 of benefits increased her net worth by about $745,000. Here's how:".....
It is clear that by using the policy to pay the LTC expenses allowed other assets to grow more than her LTC expenses - great job and a very important point. Excuse my ignorance, but I am trying to understand the LTC policy limits. If your mother lived longer and continued to use the policy to pay her home health aid many more years into the future, would it have it been possible to exhaust the funds available from the policy and then would be forced to use other sources to pay LTC expenses?
WoW2012
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

Eagle33 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 12:54 pm If your mother lived longer and continued to use the policy to pay her home health aid many more years into the future, would it have it been possible to exhaust the funds available from the policy and then would be forced to use other sources to pay LTC expenses?
If she had used up all $365,000 of benefits in her long-term care policy, at that point, we would have had to use her income and assets to pay for the cost of care.

My mother-in-law owned a "traditional long-term care insurance" policy. There are better policies today called "Long-Term Care Partnership" policies. Those policies can protect your assets even if you exhaust all the benefits in the policy.

45 states have "Long-Term Care Partnership" policies.
4 states don't: Alaska, Hawaii, Mississippi, and Vermont
Massachusetts has one that only protects home equity if the LTCi policy runs out of benefits.

California, Connecticut, Indiana and New York have long-term care partnership policies, but they are VERY expensive. All 4 of those states need to modernize their Long Term Care Partnership policies.
Last edited by WoW2012 on Sun May 15, 2022 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
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Eagle33
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by Eagle33 »

WoW2012, thanks for the response.
WoW2012
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

Eagle33 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 1:19 pm WoW2012, thanks for the response.
my pleasure.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
Chardo
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by Chardo »

Partnership policies don't necessarily protect all your assets. A partnership plan is a combination of LTC insurance and Medicaid. If you use up your partnership policy benefits, you will be eligible for Medicaid (welfare) without having to spend down assets. You will still have to spend all your income. But Medicaid doesn't pay for home care or assisted living. You must require nursing home level of care. It's better than nothing (your insurance ran out, so anything more is better), but it's not necessarily the great deal one thinks it will be.

BTW, New York no longer offers any new partnership policies. Existing policies are still valid.
WoW2012
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

Chardo wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 5:17 pm Partnership policies don't necessarily protect all your assets. A partnership plan is a combination of LTC insurance and Medicaid. If you use up your partnership policy benefits, you will be eligible for Medicaid (welfare) without having to spend down assets. You will still have to spend all your income. But Medicaid doesn't pay for home care or assisted living. You must require nursing home level of care. It's better than nothing (your insurance ran out, so anything more is better), but it's not necessarily the great deal one thinks it will be.

BTW, New York no longer offers any new partnership policies. Existing policies are still valid.
Chardo: Partnership policies don't necessarily protect all your assets.
Wow: True. But the more assets you have the more long-term care insurance you may want to buy. Many of my clients buy policies today that will grow to $2M+ in benefits over their lifetimes. That may not protect all of their assets but it will protect a sizable amount.

Chardo: A partnership plan is a combination of LTC insurance and Medicaid.
Wow: It depends upon what you mean by "plan". If by "plan" you mean the programs created by each state, you are correct. If by "plan" you mean an insurance policy, you are incorrect. Long-term care partnership POLICIES are completely separate from Medicaid. If one exhausts the benefits in their long-term care partnership policies they can then choose to apply for Medicaid. Their assets will be protected from Medicaid in an amount equal to the amount they received from the policy PLUS whatever amount Medicaid normally allows someone to keep.

Chardo: You will still have to spend all your income.
Wow: In most cases, that's true, unless the Medicaid applicant is married and the other spouse's income is less than the Minimum Monthly Maintenance Needs Allowance (MMMNA).

Chardo: But Medicaid doesn't pay for home care or assisted living.
Wow: That's true in some states, not all.

Chardo: It's better than nothing (your insurance ran out, so anything more is better), but it's not necessarily the great deal one thinks it will be.
Wow: To be able to protect most (if not all) of your assets for your spouse and/or heirs, even though your long-term care insurance is exhausted is "not necessarily a great deal"? Really????? Not a great deal? Usually when I tell someone about the long-term care partnership program they tell me that it sounds "too good to be true". It does sound too good to be true. But it is true.

Chardo: New York no longer offers any new partnership policies.
Wow: More accurately, "Insurance companies that sell long-term care insurance in New York are no longer selling new long-term care partnership policies, only traditional long-term care insurance." Once New York modernizes their antiquated Partnership Program, insurance companies will probably start to sell Long Term Care Partnership Policies in New York again.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
MikeG62
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by MikeG62 »

WoW2012 wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 11:01 pm
...She started receiving care at home, then she moved to an assisted living facility for three years before moving into our home...
It is interesting that a person as knowledgeable as you would find themselves in the position of moving a person with a LTC policy out of an assisted living facility and into their own home. I would have thought she'd have a gold plated LTC policy that would avoid the position you found yourself in. Now maybe there were other reasons for the change from assisted living to your home completely unrelated to finances, but I can't help but wonder why you ended up doing this. After all, taking care of an aging and ill parent is an incredible amount of work.

Separately, the moderators are doing a disservice in not allowing you to share your contact information in a way that would allow those of us who might be interested in reaching out to you the ability to find you. It's easy for you to say, make sure you are dealing with a competent insurance person (a LTC specialist). Much harder to do this in reality. How are we to know the bona-fides of this person in advance or from a phone call or meeting? The most sleazy sales people often come across as the most believable (think Bernie Madoff or Jordan Belfort).

The Finance Buff, White Coat Investor and Rick Ferri (among many, many others) post on this forum quite often and everyone knows exactly how to get in touch with them. Moderators, why the ban on WoW2012? Please explain this or allow this person to post their contact information in their profile for those of us that might wish to contact him/her.
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WoW2012
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

MikeG62 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 6:34 am
WoW2012 wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 11:01 pm
...She started receiving care at home, then she moved to an assisted living facility for three years before moving into our home...
It is interesting that a person as knowledgeable as you would find themselves in the position of moving a person with a LTC policy out of an assisted living facility and into their own home. I would have thought she'd have a gold plated LTC policy that would avoid the position you found yourself in. Now maybe there were other reasons for the change from assisted living to your home completely unrelated to finances, but I can't help but wonder why you ended up doing this.
The ALF's COVID protocols were very strict.
No visitors.
No socializing even among the residents.
She was alone and depressed.

We brought her to my home because we missed her and she missed us.
It had nothing to do with finances.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
WoW2012
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

MikeG62 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 6:34 am
Separately, the moderators are doing a disservice in not allowing you to share your contact information in a way that would allow those of us who might be interested in reaching out to you the ability to find you.

The Finance Buff, White Coat Investor and Rick Ferri (among many, many others) post on this forum quite often and everyone knows exactly how to get in touch with them. Moderators, why the ban on WoW2012? Please explain this or allow this person to post their contact information in their profile for those of us that might wish to contact him/her.

LadyGeek, et al...
I have no objection to sharing my contact information in my profile if you feel comfortable with that.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
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somewhatentertained
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by somewhatentertained »

Just an anecdote to add to the pot, my mother at 70 was presented with a hybrid policy to consider. It had a buy-in of $200,000 divided over 10 years of payments for a max benefit of $350,000. We declined.
MikeG62
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by MikeG62 »

WoW2012 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 9:52 am
MikeG62 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 6:34 am
Separately, the moderators are doing a disservice in not allowing you to share your contact information in a way that would allow those of us who might be interested in reaching out to you the ability to find you.

The Finance Buff, White Coat Investor and Rick Ferri (among many, many others) post on this forum quite often and everyone knows exactly how to get in touch with them. Moderators, why the ban on WoW2012? Please explain this or allow this person to post their contact information in their profile for those of us that might wish to contact him/her.

LadyGeek, et al...
I have no objection to sharing my contact information in my profile if you feel comfortable with that.
Let me add that this person seems very knowledgeable and highly competent based upon their by hundreds and hundreds of posts on this forum in this subject area.

Please allow people “who choose to do so” to find a way to contact this person as forum members can do with many others who post here frequently and offer advice on a subject matter where they are clearly competent and where they make their career.

To be clear, this person has never made any attempt to solicit any business from this forum. Allowing his/her profile to contain information that might allow someone to contact him/her should not be viewed a solicitation. Forum readers can assess his/her competence based upon their interaction with him/her here and decide for themselves whether they want to contact him/her on their own.
Last edited by MikeG62 on Mon May 16, 2022 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Rex66
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by Rex66 »

WoW2012 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 9:52 am
MikeG62 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 6:34 am
Separately, the moderators are doing a disservice in not allowing you to share your contact information in a way that would allow those of us who might be interested in reaching out to you the ability to find you.

The Finance Buff, White Coat Investor and Rick Ferri (among many, many others) post on this forum quite often and everyone knows exactly how to get in touch with them. Moderators, why the ban on WoW2012? Please explain this or allow this person to post their contact information in their profile for those of us that might wish to contact him/her.

LadyGeek, et al...
I have no objection to sharing my contact information in my profile if you feel comfortable with that.
The number of insurance agents who would want to “advertise “ here would be out of control

You can pm someone for their information

We absolutely do not need this nor is it desirable.
MikeG62
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by MikeG62 »

Rex66 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 10:22 am
WoW2012 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 9:52 am
MikeG62 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 6:34 am
Separately, the moderators are doing a disservice in not allowing you to share your contact information in a way that would allow those of us who might be interested in reaching out to you the ability to find you.

The Finance Buff, White Coat Investor and Rick Ferri (among many, many others) post on this forum quite often and everyone knows exactly how to get in touch with them. Moderators, why the ban on WoW2012? Please explain this or allow this person to post their contact information in their profile for those of us that might wish to contact him/her.

LadyGeek, et al...
I have no objection to sharing my contact information in my profile if you feel comfortable with that.
The number of insurance agents who would want to “advertise “ here would be out of control

You can pm someone for their information

We absolutely do not need this nor is it desirable.
His PM capability has been deactivated.

Other people who want to have their contact info in their profile can spend the years and years this person has building cred with the readers on this site before anyone is going to reach out to them.

I’ve been on this forum for years with over 4,000 posts. I’m not some noob who is speaking out of context. I’d like his/her info. Would help me greatly in fact.
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WoW2012
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

Rex66 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 10:22 am
You can pm someone for their information
Nine and a half years ago, when I started posting on this forum, I was accused of participating for the purpose of soliciting (via PM's). That is why I turned off my PM. I did not want anyone to be able to contact me so that my motives would be clear:

to share important information that you can't get from the mainstream "personal finance" media.

That is why the only people who are able to contact me are the moderators. But even the moderators don't know my name or contact information. They can only contact me through this forum's messaging system.
Last edited by WoW2012 on Mon May 16, 2022 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
WoW2012
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

somewhatentertained wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 10:17 am Just an anecdote to add to the pot, my mother at 70 was presented with a hybrid policy to consider. It had a buy-in of $200,000 divided over 10 years of payments for a max benefit of $350,000. We declined.
If someone is healthy enough to qualify, a traditional long-term care insurance policy is almost always a much better value than a hybrid. My mother-in-law paid less than $40,000 in premium and she got back (we got back) over $275,000 of benefits. (And she still had about $100,000 left in her policy when she died.)
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
WoW2012
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

somewhatentertained wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 10:17 am Just an anecdote to add to the pot, my mother at 70 was presented with a hybrid policy to consider. It had a buy-in of $200,000 divided over 10 years of payments for a max benefit of $350,000. We declined.
Unfortunately, a lot of insurance agents (and "financial advisors") are not very good at math.
How could that agent think that it made sense to pay $200,000 to get, maybe, $350,000 of benefits?
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
MikeG62
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by MikeG62 »

WoW2012 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 10:36 am
Rex66 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 10:22 am
You can pm someone for their information
Nine and a half years ago, when I started posting on this forum, I was accused of participating for the purpose of soliciting (via PM's). That is why I turned off my PM. I did not want anyone to be able to contact me so that my motives would be clear: I was here to share important information that you can't get from the mainstream "personal finance" media.

That is why the only people who are able to contact me are the moderators.
Maybe it’s time then to end the self imposed exile as 9+ years of posting on this forum without the ability to solicit any business has long established your cred and the fact that you are clearly not here investing your time and expertise or knowledge for financial gain.
Last edited by MikeG62 on Tue May 17, 2022 7:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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WoW2012
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

MikeG62 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 10:43 am
Maybe it’s time then to end the self imposed exile as 9+ years of posting on this forum without the ability to solicit any business has long established your cred and the fact that you are not hear investing your time and expertise or knowledge for financial gain.
That is up to the moderators to decide, not me.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by MikeG62 »

WoW2012 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 10:46 am
MikeG62 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 10:43 am
Maybe it’s time then to end the self imposed exile as 9+ years of posting on this forum without the ability to solicit any business has long established your cred and the fact that you are not hear investing your time and expertise or knowledge for financial gain.
That is up to the moderators to decide, not me.
Sorry I though you said you decided to turn off your PM capability. My bad.
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WoW2012
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

MikeG62 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 10:47 am
WoW2012 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 10:46 am
MikeG62 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 10:43 am
Maybe it’s time then to end the self imposed exile as 9+ years of posting on this forum without the ability to solicit any business has long established your cred and the fact that you are not hear investing your time and expertise or knowledge for financial gain.
That is up to the moderators to decide, not me.
Sorry I though you said you decided to turn off your PM capability. My bad.
I did say that.
I turned it off.
I was being accused of soliciting via the PM capability.
If the mods will allow, I'll post my contact info.
Otherwise, I won't.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
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somewhatentertained
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by somewhatentertained »

WoW2012 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 10:43 am
somewhatentertained wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 10:17 am Just an anecdote to add to the pot, my mother at 70 was presented with a hybrid policy to consider. It had a buy-in of $200,000 divided over 10 years of payments for a max benefit of $350,000. We declined.
Unfortunately, a lot of insurance agents (and "financial advisors") are not very good at math.
How could that agent think that it made sense to pay $200,000 to get, maybe, $350,000 of benefits?
Because he was up for a commission for selling it, of course.
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by MikeG62 »

WoW2012 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 9:52 am
MikeG62 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 6:34 am
Separately, the moderators are doing a disservice in not allowing you to share your contact information in a way that would allow those of us who might be interested in reaching out to you the ability to find you.

The Finance Buff, White Coat Investor and Rick Ferri (among many, many others) post on this forum quite often and everyone knows exactly how to get in touch with them. Moderators, why the ban on WoW2012? Please explain this or allow this person to post their contact information in their profile for those of us that might wish to contact him/her.

LadyGeek, et al...
I have no objection to sharing my contact information in my profile if you feel comfortable with that.
WoW2012, Did any of the moderators get back to you on this question?
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WoW2012
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

MikeG62 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 6:04 am
WoW2012 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 9:52 am
MikeG62 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 6:34 am
Separately, the moderators are doing a disservice in not allowing you to share your contact information in a way that would allow those of us who might be interested in reaching out to you the ability to find you.

The Finance Buff, White Coat Investor and Rick Ferri (among many, many others) post on this forum quite often and everyone knows exactly how to get in touch with them. Moderators, why the ban on WoW2012? Please explain this or allow this person to post their contact information in their profile for those of us that might wish to contact him/her.

LadyGeek, et al...
I have no objection to sharing my contact information in my profile if you feel comfortable with that.
WoW2012, Did any of the moderators get back to you on this question?
no.
if you have a question for me, just post it here and I'll answer it.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by LadyGeek »

Regarding contact information in a member's profile (which is not sending a PM). See: No Solicitation
Please do not solicit business or website traffic on this forum. Forum officers will determine what constitutes solicitation on a case by case basis, but we offer the following guidelines about commonly encountered issues:

* Members may enter personal websites or blogs in the "Website" section of their profiles.
...
* Members may not post affiliate or referral links, except affiliate links in support of the forum, or ask for referrals.
...
Note the word "personal" for a website and blog. Business links are not permitted.

No contact information is permitted in a signature. See: Profile Information
Signatures, Location, Website, etc. - To keep the forums readable and the signal to noise ratio high, all profile information, including Signatures and Locations must be free of commercial messages, inoffensive, short, and normal text only (no external links, no images, no line breaks, and no distracting formatting). Locations must be physical locations such as city, state, country or region. The Website field may only be used for your blog or other personal website.
If anyone has a question, please PM me. Don't post here.
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MikeG62
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by MikeG62 »

WoW2012 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 10:20 am
MikeG62 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 6:04 am
WoW2012 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 9:52 am
MikeG62 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 6:34 am
Separately, the moderators are doing a disservice in not allowing you to share your contact information in a way that would allow those of us who might be interested in reaching out to you the ability to find you.

The Finance Buff, White Coat Investor and Rick Ferri (among many, many others) post on this forum quite often and everyone knows exactly how to get in touch with them. Moderators, why the ban on WoW2012? Please explain this or allow this person to post their contact information in their profile for those of us that might wish to contact him/her.

LadyGeek, et al...
I have no objection to sharing my contact information in my profile if you feel comfortable with that.
WoW2012, Did any of the moderators get back to you on this question?
no.
if you have a question for me, just post it here and I'll answer it.
Ok, looks like we have to do it that way.

I am interested in considering policies which would cover catastrophic costs. In other words, I am willing to cover the first several hundred thousand dollars of costs. But would then like insurance to kick in and cover the lions share of the costs above that up to or into a seven figure exposure (think a very long stay in a memory care facility).

I'd be willing to make monthly payments into such a policy or alternatively a large one-time up front premium payment and be done with it.

I'd be willing to consider something that works more like life insurance. So, I would fund 100% of the costs for LTC and once I'm gone my wife (or my estate) would recover a very large share of those costs from insurance. This has the added appeal I think that the costs paid while in care should be deductible for Federal Income Tax purposes while the insurance recovery after death would generally be non-taxable. Correct me if I am wrong on that.

FBN2014 detailed an interesting policy he purchased from Securian Financial (called SecureCare). He lives in NC so it may not be available elsewhere or more importantly in my state.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=341269&p=5999571&hi ... g#p5999571

I'd be willing to make a larger premium payment for a larger benefit.

I am 60 and live in NJ. Policy would be for me only.

Hopefully that gives you enough to go on.

Thanks in advance for your time and expertise.
Real Knowledge Comes Only From Experience
Chardo
Posts: 1347
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by Chardo »

MikeG62 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:49 am
WoW2012 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 10:20 am
MikeG62 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 6:04 am
WoW2012 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 9:52 am
MikeG62 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 6:34 am
Separately, the moderators are doing a disservice in not allowing you to share your contact information in a way that would allow those of us who might be interested in reaching out to you the ability to find you.

The Finance Buff, White Coat Investor and Rick Ferri (among many, many others) post on this forum quite often and everyone knows exactly how to get in touch with them. Moderators, why the ban on WoW2012? Please explain this or allow this person to post their contact information in their profile for those of us that might wish to contact him/her.

LadyGeek, et al...
I have no objection to sharing my contact information in my profile if you feel comfortable with that.
WoW2012, Did any of the moderators get back to you on this question?
no.
if you have a question for me, just post it here and I'll answer it.
Ok, looks like we have to do it that way.

I am interested in considering policies which would cover catastrophic costs. In other words, I am willing to cover the first several hundred thousand dollars of costs. But would then like insurance to kick in and cover the lions share of the costs above that up to or into a seven figure exposure (think a very long stay in a memory care facility).

I'd be willing to make monthly payments into such a policy or alternatively a large one-time up front premium payment and be done with it.

I'd be willing to consider something that works more like life insurance. So, I would fund 100% of the costs for LTC and once I'm gone my wife (or my estate) would recover a very large share of those costs from insurance. This has the added appeal I think that the costs paid while in care should be deductible for Federal Income Tax purposes while the insurance recovery after death would generally be non-taxable. Correct me if I am wrong on that.

FBN2014 detailed an interesting policy he purchased from Securian Financial (called SecureCare). He lives in NC so it may not be available elsewhere or more importantly in my state.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=341269&p=5999571&hi ... g#p5999571

I'd be willing to make a larger premium payment for a larger benefit.

I am 60 and live in NJ. Policy would be for me only.

Hopefully that gives you enough to go on.

Thanks in advance for your time and expertise.
Just buy a permanent life insurance policy. It accomplishes exactly what you described. You pay your own LTC costs, then your wife or estate is reimbursed at death.
WoW2012
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

MikeG62 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:49 am
I am 60 and live in NJ. Policy would be for me only.

Hopefully that gives you enough to go on.

Thanks in advance for your time and expertise.

Why would this be for you only?
Why not insure your wife also?
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
WoW2012
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

LeeMKE wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 11:03 am
Just make sure you contact a long-term care insurance specialist with a lot of experience who represents a lot of different companies. Most insurance agents know very little about long-term care insurance.
I can second this advice. Don't make a decision based on some stranger on the internet who doesn't carry the coverage. And certainly get advice from an agent who specializes in LTCi, not someone tilted toward selling some policy that "could" be used for LTC.

In my case, I purchased this insurance to supplement retirement income in case of a worst case scenario (early diagnosis for one person in a couple). I purchased it at age 50, to get a decent rate and to avoid waiting until pre-existing conditions disqualified one or both of us. No way would I consider care covered under medicaid as suitable nor preferable -- I saw that care when I was interning as a Medical Social Worker.

I buy insurance for those possibilities for which I cannot self-insure. With a couple, I am insuring to prevent the last man standing from being impoverished. As a single person, I continue the coverage to remove the expense, above current expenses, from my retirement planning.

I don't buy collision coverage for autos, I don't insure comestibles (like cell phones, etc.). But I bought expensive private disability/income replacement coverage when I was working and single, dropped it once my portfolio was sufficient to replace the benefit. I bought umbrella coverage when we had teenagers who are a danger to themselves and others as they enter their experimentation phase. So I don't overinsure, but I insure for possibilities that would impoverish me.

I prefer to eliminate this possibility from my withdrawal strategy. Having my policy allows me to increase my draws. Retirement would be much more skinny if I tried to self-insure.

BTW, there is also a tax deduction for LTCi (I think this is a deduction -- I know TurboTax has me report it each year, but I can't vouch for having confirmed it on my final submittal).

well-stated.
bravo.


wow
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
MikeG62
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by MikeG62 »

WoW2012 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 10:16 am
MikeG62 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:49 am
I am 60 and live in NJ. Policy would be for me only.

Hopefully that gives you enough to go on.

Thanks in advance for your time and expertise.

Why would this be for you only?
Why not insure your wife also?
Yes only for me. This is where the greater risk exists.
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WoW2012
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

MikeG62 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:04 pm Yes only for me. This is where the greater risk exists.
:confused :confused :confused :confused :confused
??????
Why?
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
MikeG62
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by MikeG62 »

WoW2012 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:11 pm
MikeG62 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:04 pm Yes only for me. This is where the greater risk exists.
:confused :confused :confused :confused :confused
??????
Why?
If you turn on your PM capability (which LadyGeek said you are welcome to do in a PM she sent to me yesterday - as long as you are not soliciting business) I will answer that question. In the meantime, you'll have to take my word for it - between my DW and I the greater risk of a large exposure resides with me.
Real Knowledge Comes Only From Experience
ncbill
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by ncbill »

WoW2012 wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 1:48 pm
ncbill wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 4:03 pm

Curious how much that $300k plan WoW2012 sold pays out annually/lifetime.
It was actually a one-time $250K premium. It's a truly "catastrophic plan". It pays practically nothing for the first 36 months (about $3K per month per spouse.) Beginning with the 37th month of care it starts to pay an inflated amount which grows by 5% compound every year from the very first policy year (e.g. . There's no limit on how long it can pay benefits. It'll never run out of LTC benefits.) It's the "high deductible, catastrophic policy" many bogleheads have expressed an interest in. It's out there. You just have to find it. It's easy to qualify for, too. These particular clients had some very challenging health issues that make the probability of needing care for a long time a very real possibility. They would not have been able to qualify for a rich traditional LTCi policy. The $250K was less than 5% of his portfolio. He used the $250K as a way to hedge his bets.
So any hints on how to find the above type of policy since you've turned off your PM capability?

Keywords?

Traditional or hybrid?
WoW2012
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

MikeG62 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:24 pm
WoW2012 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:11 pm
MikeG62 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:04 pm Yes only for me. This is where the greater risk exists.
:confused :confused :confused :confused :confused
??????
Why?
If you turn on your PM capability (which LadyGeek said you are welcome to do in a PM she sent to me yesterday - as long as you are not soliciting business) I will answer that question. In the meantime, you'll have to take my word for it - between my DW and I the greater risk of a large exposure resides with me.
Fine.
I turned on my PM.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
WoW2012
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

WoW2012 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 2:32 pm
MikeG62 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:24 pm
WoW2012 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:11 pm
MikeG62 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:04 pm Yes only for me. This is where the greater risk exists.
:confused :confused :confused :confused :confused
??????
Why?
If you turn on your PM capability (which LadyGeek said you are welcome to do in a PM she sent to me yesterday - as long as you are not soliciting business) I will answer that question. In the meantime, you'll have to take my word for it - between my DW and I the greater risk of a large exposure resides with me.
Fine.
I turned on my PM.
The PM system on this forum is horrible.

If you're both healthy enough, you and your wife could share a policy that starts off with $930,000 of long-term care insurance benefits. The benefits would be guaranteed to grow every year by 3% compounding. By age 84, you'd have $1,860,000 of benefits in the policy. Your combined annual premium would be $5,866. If you're healthy enough to qualify, that policy will give you the most bang for the buck.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
WoW2012
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

ncbill wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:42 pm
WoW2012 wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 1:48 pm
ncbill wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 4:03 pm

Curious how much that $300k plan WoW2012 sold pays out annually/lifetime.
It was actually a one-time $250K premium. It's a truly "catastrophic plan". It pays practically nothing for the first 36 months (about $3K per month per spouse.) Beginning with the 37th month of care it starts to pay an inflated amount which grows by 5% compound every year from the very first policy year (e.g. . There's no limit on how long it can pay benefits. It'll never run out of LTC benefits.) It's the "high deductible, catastrophic policy" many bogleheads have expressed an interest in. It's out there. You just have to find it. It's easy to qualify for, too. These particular clients had some very challenging health issues that make the probability of needing care for a long time a very real possibility. They would not have been able to qualify for a rich traditional LTCi policy. The $250K was less than 5% of his portfolio. He used the $250K as a way to hedge his bets.
So any hints on how to find the above type of policy since you've turned off your PM capability?

Keywords?

Traditional or hybrid?

Try AARP
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
JayB
Posts: 659
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by JayB »

Ditch Genworth LTC Policy and self fund instead?

Our Genworth LTC shared care partnership Policy premium has increased 20% over each of the past 2 years to $11,258 currently; it was about $4,700 13 years ago. It is now so expensive that we are thinking of ditching the policy and self funding instead. The policy was originally intended to give us an added layer of security in the case of extended LTC expenses from Alzheimer’s, etc. However, the financial viability of continuing this policy is now in doubt.

Would like to hear from others who have gone through similar thinking about dropping LTC coverage. What % increases over the next decade or two are reasonable in planning for premium increases?

Currently, we plan on 10% annual premium increases, but the back-to-back 20% increases have upended our thinking; if the ongoing increases rise above 12%, our calculations show that we would probably be better off dropping the policy because the saved premiums plus the after-tax earnings on them (very conservatively invested) would exceed the benefit pool after 25 or so years. If we ditch the policy, we would still have access to about $80K in benefits from premiums paid to date.

Our current benefit pool is $14,376 per month max. x 4 years = $689,609, and increases at 5% compound annually, keeping pace with assumed 5% annual increases in LTC costs. The monthly maximum covers the cost of a private nursing home room in our area.

Our issue isn’t whether or not the benefits would keep us financially solvent – we can afford to self fund for 4 years of full-tilt nursing home care at any age if need be. Rather, the issue is that in most scenarios, we are paying more in premiums -- and lost investment opportunity on them -- than we can ever claim in benefits. Cutting back our benefit pool (and proportionately our premiums) does not change this calculus.
Silk McCue
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by Silk McCue »

JayB wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:40 am Ditch Genworth LTC Policy and self fund instead?
Your current monthly benefit is massive. That’s because it’s driven by the that large inflation rider. I would explore premium impacts by reducing that %.

Cheers
WoW2012
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

JayB wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:40 am Ditch Genworth LTC Policy and self fund instead?

Our Genworth LTC shared care partnership Policy premium has increased 20% over each of the past 2 years to $11,258 currently; it was about $4,700 13 years ago. It is now so expensive that we are thinking of ditching the policy and self funding instead. The policy was originally intended to give us an added layer of security in the case of extended LTC expenses from Alzheimer’s, etc. However, the financial viability of continuing this policy is now in doubt.

Would like to hear from others who have gone through similar thinking about dropping LTC coverage. What % increases over the next decade or two are reasonable in planning for premium increases?

Currently, we plan on 10% annual premium increases, but the back-to-back 20% increases have upended our thinking; if the ongoing increases rise above 12%, our calculations show that we would probably be better off dropping the policy because the saved premiums plus the after-tax earnings on them (very conservatively invested) would exceed the benefit pool after 25 or so years. If we ditch the policy, we would still have access to about $80K in benefits from premiums paid to date.

Our current benefit pool is $14,376 per month max. x 4 years = $689,609, and increases at 5% compound annually, keeping pace with assumed 5% annual increases in LTC costs. The monthly maximum covers the cost of a private nursing home room in our area.

Our issue isn’t whether or not the benefits would keep us financially solvent – we can afford to self fund for 4 years of full-tilt nursing home care at any age if need be. Rather, the issue is that in most scenarios, we are paying more in premiums -- and lost investment opportunity on them -- than we can ever claim in benefits. Cutting back our benefit pool (and proportionately our premiums) does not change this calculus.
The probability and size of future rate increases will depend upon when you purchased your policy and what state you resided in at that time. Please provide that information.

Wow
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
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