Should I concolidate prior 401Ks

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Topic Author
lepa71
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Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2016 5:12 pm

Should I concolidate prior 401Ks

Post by lepa71 »

I'm starting a new job and I'm wondering if I should roll over 2 other 401Ks into Vanguard. Both 401ks have trad and roth in them. Funds that are available there are not the best and I do have my brokerage, trad, and roth IRAs at the vanguard. In 2021 I have to clean up my trad IRA from non-deductible contributions so it is 0 balance right now.
So my other question is how long do I have to wait until I can use that account?

Thanks
exodusNH
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Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2021 8:21 pm

Re: Should I concolidate prior 401Ks

Post by exodusNH »

lepa71 wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 10:07 pm I'm starting a new job and I'm wondering if I should roll over 2 other 401Ks into Vanguard. Both 401ks have trad and roth in them. Funds that are available there are not the best and I do have my brokerage, trad, and roth IRAs at the vanguard. In 2021 I have to clean up my trad IRA from non-deductible contributions so it is 0 balance right now.
So my other question is how long do I have to wait until I can use that account?

Thanks
Roll the old 401ks into traditional IRA and Roth IRA accounts. Then roll the traditional IRAs into your new 401k. This will allow you to perform a backdoor IRA.

I'm not sure how long the transfers take. Probably several days each.
Topic Author
lepa71
Posts: 392
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Re: Should I concolidate prior 401Ks

Post by lepa71 »

exodusNH wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 10:11 pm
lepa71 wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 10:07 pm I'm starting a new job and I'm wondering if I should roll over 2 other 401Ks into Vanguard. Both 401ks have trad and roth in them. Funds that are available there are not the best and I do have my brokerage, trad, and roth IRAs at the vanguard. In 2021 I have to clean up my trad IRA from non-deductible contributions so it is 0 balance right now.
So my other question is how long do I have to wait until I can use that account?

Thanks
Roll the old 401ks into traditional IRA and Roth IRA accounts. Then roll the traditional IRAs into your new 401k. This will allow you to perform a backdoor IRA.

I'm not sure how long the transfers take. Probably several days each.
When I talked about "So my other question is how long do I have to wait until I can use that account?" I was asking for my cleaned-up Trad IRA.
Can you explain more why I would need to roll over trad IRA into a new 401K? I don't really know what funds I will get in the new 401k yet. I know for sure that the new 401k has trad and roth options.

Thanks
Normchad
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Re: Should I concolidate prior 401Ks

Post by Normchad »

lepa71 wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 10:18 pm
exodusNH wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 10:11 pm
lepa71 wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 10:07 pm I'm starting a new job and I'm wondering if I should roll over 2 other 401Ks into Vanguard. Both 401ks have trad and roth in them. Funds that are available there are not the best and I do have my brokerage, trad, and roth IRAs at the vanguard. In 2021 I have to clean up my trad IRA from non-deductible contributions so it is 0 balance right now.
So my other question is how long do I have to wait until I can use that account?

Thanks
Roll the old 401ks into traditional IRA and Roth IRA accounts. Then roll the traditional IRAs into your new 401k. This will allow you to perform a backdoor IRA.

I'm not sure how long the transfers take. Probably several days each.
When I talked about "So my other question is how long do I have to wait until I can use that account?" I was asking for my cleaned-up Trad IRA.
Can you explain more why I would need to roll over trad IRA into a new 401K? I don't really know what funds I will get in the new 401k yet. I know for sure that the new 401k has trad and roth options.

Thanks
You won’t want to do backdoor Roth IRA ifs you have funds in a traditional IRA. (Pro Rata rule means you’d pay a lot in taxes at the time of conversion). You can avoid that problem by rolling all your traditional IRAs into your new 401K.

This is almost always a smart move, unless you have an absolutely terrible 401K with high fees.
exodusNH
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Re: Should I concolidate prior 401Ks

Post by exodusNH »

lepa71 wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 10:18 pm
exodusNH wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 10:11 pm
lepa71 wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 10:07 pm I'm starting a new job and I'm wondering if I should roll over 2 other 401Ks into Vanguard. Both 401ks have trad and roth in them. Funds that are available there are not the best and I do have my brokerage, trad, and roth IRAs at the vanguard. In 2021 I have to clean up my trad IRA from non-deductible contributions so it is 0 balance right now.
So my other question is how long do I have to wait until I can use that account?

Thanks
Roll the old 401ks into traditional IRA and Roth IRA accounts. Then roll the traditional IRAs into your new 401k. This will allow you to perform a backdoor IRA.

I'm not sure how long the transfers take. Probably several days each.
When I talked about "So my other question is how long do I have to wait until I can use that account?" I was asking for my cleaned-up Trad IRA.
Can you explain more why I would need to roll over trad IRA into a new 401K? I don't really know what funds I will get in the new 401k yet. I know for sure that the new 401k has trad and roth options.

Thanks
I'm not quite sure what "cleaned up" means. You can always open up a new IRA. You can have as many individual accounts as you want. The IRS considers them one gigantic bucket of money, but for organizational purposes you can have as many as you want.

If you want to take advantage of the backdoor Roth process, you need to have no other money in a traditional IRA (tIRA). By rolling your old 401ks into new tIRA and Roth IRA accounts, you can then just roll your tIRAs into the 401k to keep a $0 tIRA balance.

I recommend rolling the 401ks into new accounts because some plans won't allow rolling in of IRAs that have non-rollover money in it.

Regardless, keeping the rIRA makes sense as you get full freedom on the holdings and have no fees besides the fund fees. 401ks usually have administrative fees.
Topic Author
lepa71
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Re: Should I concolidate prior 401Ks

Post by lepa71 »

exodusNH wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 10:30 pm
lepa71 wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 10:18 pm
exodusNH wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 10:11 pm
lepa71 wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 10:07 pm I'm starting a new job and I'm wondering if I should roll over 2 other 401Ks into Vanguard. Both 401ks have trad and roth in them. Funds that are available there are not the best and I do have my brokerage, trad, and roth IRAs at the vanguard. In 2021 I have to clean up my trad IRA from non-deductible contributions so it is 0 balance right now.
So my other question is how long do I have to wait until I can use that account?

Thanks
Roll the old 401ks into traditional IRA and Roth IRA accounts. Then roll the traditional IRAs into your new 401k. This will allow you to perform a backdoor IRA.

I'm not sure how long the transfers take. Probably several days each.
When I talked about "So my other question is how long do I have to wait until I can use that account?" I was asking for my cleaned-up Trad IRA.
Can you explain more why I would need to roll over trad IRA into a new 401K? I don't really know what funds I will get in the new 401k yet. I know for sure that the new 401k has trad and roth options.

Thanks
I'm not quite sure what "cleaned up" means. You can always open up a new IRA. You can have as many individual accounts as you want. The IRS considers them one gigantic bucket of money, but for organizational purposes you can have as many as you want.

If you want to take advantage of the backdoor Roth process, you need to have no other money in a traditional IRA (tIRA). By rolling your old 401ks into new tIRA and Roth IRA accounts, you can then just roll your tIRAs into the 401k to keep a $0 tIRA balance.

I recommend rolling the 401ks into new accounts because some plans won't allow rolling in of IRAs that have non-rollover money in it.

Regardless, keeping the rIRA makes sense as you get full freedom on the holdings and have no fees besides the fund fees. 401ks usually have administrative fees.
I end up with a portion in my trad IRA that was a non-deductible contribution. I had to roll over an amount based on my 8606 form into Roth ira but before I could do it I had to roll over the rest of the money into my 401k. This is why my current Trad IRA has 0 balance right now. Because of my income I decided to just contribute the full amount to Roth IRA from now on for myself but for my wife, we still contribute to trad IRA. Does it matter if she has a trad IRA account with not-zero balance?
exodusNH
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Re: Should I concolidate prior 401Ks

Post by exodusNH »

lepa71 wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 11:02 pm
exodusNH wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 10:30 pm
lepa71 wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 10:18 pm
exodusNH wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 10:11 pm
lepa71 wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 10:07 pm I'm starting a new job and I'm wondering if I should roll over 2 other 401Ks into Vanguard. Both 401ks have trad and roth in them. Funds that are available there are not the best and I do have my brokerage, trad, and roth IRAs at the vanguard. In 2021 I have to clean up my trad IRA from non-deductible contributions so it is 0 balance right now.
So my other question is how long do I have to wait until I can use that account?

Thanks
Roll the old 401ks into traditional IRA and Roth IRA accounts. Then roll the traditional IRAs into your new 401k. This will allow you to perform a backdoor IRA.

I'm not sure how long the transfers take. Probably several days each.
When I talked about "So my other question is how long do I have to wait until I can use that account?" I was asking for my cleaned-up Trad IRA.
Can you explain more why I would need to roll over trad IRA into a new 401K? I don't really know what funds I will get in the new 401k yet. I know for sure that the new 401k has trad and roth options.

Thanks
I'm not quite sure what "cleaned up" means. You can always open up a new IRA. You can have as many individual accounts as you want. The IRS considers them one gigantic bucket of money, but for organizational purposes you can have as many as you want.

If you want to take advantage of the backdoor Roth process, you need to have no other money in a traditional IRA (tIRA). By rolling your old 401ks into new tIRA and Roth IRA accounts, you can then just roll your tIRAs into the 401k to keep a $0 tIRA balance.

I recommend rolling the 401ks into new accounts because some plans won't allow rolling in of IRAs that have non-rollover money in it.

Regardless, keeping the rIRA makes sense as you get full freedom on the holdings and have no fees besides the fund fees. 401ks usually have administrative fees.
I end up with a portion in my trad IRA that was a non-deductible contribution. I had to roll over an amount based on my 8606 form into Roth ira but before I could do it I had to roll over the rest of the money into my 401k. This is why my current Trad IRA has 0 balance right now. Because of my income I decided to just contribute the full amount to Roth IRA from now on for myself but for my wife, we still contribute to trad IRA. Does it matter if she has a trad IRA account with not-zero balance?
Your tIRA can be used right away. However, if your intention is to move your old 401ks, I think your life will be easier if you open a new tIRA for that purpose. If you want to roll that into your new 401k, that would likely be less work / documentation on your end.

It's certainly less complicated if you're able to directly contribute to a Roth IRA. You should consider how close you are to the threshold of not being able to do that before you decide to have a nonzero tIRA balances.

I'm sorry, but I'm not familiar enough with tax rules to know how your wife having a tIRA balance affects things. I've only ever filed as a single person.
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markjk
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Re: Should I concolidate prior 401Ks

Post by markjk »

I suggest consolidating to the new 401k unless there is a great reason to keep the accounts separate. Less to manage and think about. You can certainly consider a backdoor conversion since you are moving money around anyway. But depending on where you are in your savings cycle, tax bracket, etc. you may not want to do that for a while. It just depends.

I'm a big fan of consolidation and simplicity unless there is a significant payoff otherwise.
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ruralavalon
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Re: Should I concolidate prior 401Ks

Post by ruralavalon »

lepa71 wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 10:07 pm I'm starting a new job and I'm wondering if I should roll over 2 other 401Ks into Vanguard. Both 401ks have trad and roth in them. Funds that are available there are not the best and I do have my brokerage, trad, and roth IRAs at the vanguard. In 2021 I have to clean up my trad IRA from non-deductible contributions so it is 0 balance right now.
So my other question is how long do I have to wait until I can use that account?

Thanks
Does your new employer offer a plan with good funds and low expense ratios? If so it may be best to rollover the old 401k accounts into your new employer's plan.

What funds are offered in your new employer's plan? Please give fund names, tickers, and expense ratios. Are any additional fees charged the plan participants, besides the expense ratios?
"Everything should be as simple as it is, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein | Wiki article link: Bogleheads® investment philosophy
Topic Author
lepa71
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Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2016 5:12 pm

Re: Should I concolidate prior 401Ks

Post by lepa71 »

exodusNH wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 5:29 am
lepa71 wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 11:02 pm
exodusNH wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 10:30 pm
lepa71 wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 10:18 pm
exodusNH wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 10:11 pm

Roll the old 401ks into traditional IRA and Roth IRA accounts. Then roll the traditional IRAs into your new 401k. This will allow you to perform a backdoor IRA.

I'm not sure how long the transfers take. Probably several days each.
When I talked about "So my other question is how long do I have to wait until I can use that account?" I was asking for my cleaned-up Trad IRA.
Can you explain more why I would need to roll over trad IRA into a new 401K? I don't really know what funds I will get in the new 401k yet. I know for sure that the new 401k has trad and roth options.

Thanks
I'm not quite sure what "cleaned up" means. You can always open up a new IRA. You can have as many individual accounts as you want. The IRS considers them one gigantic bucket of money, but for organizational purposes you can have as many as you want.

If you want to take advantage of the backdoor Roth process, you need to have no other money in a traditional IRA (tIRA). By rolling your old 401ks into new tIRA and Roth IRA accounts, you can then just roll your tIRAs into the 401k to keep a $0 tIRA balance.

I recommend rolling the 401ks into new accounts because some plans won't allow rolling in of IRAs that have non-rollover money in it.

Regardless, keeping the rIRA makes sense as you get full freedom on the holdings and have no fees besides the fund fees. 401ks usually have administrative fees.
I end up with a portion in my trad IRA that was a non-deductible contribution. I had to roll over an amount based on my 8606 form into Roth ira but before I could do it I had to roll over the rest of the money into my 401k. This is why my current Trad IRA has 0 balance right now. Because of my income I decided to just contribute the full amount to Roth IRA from now on for myself but for my wife, we still contribute to trad IRA. Does it matter if she has a trad IRA account with not-zero balance?
Your tIRA can be used right away. However, if your intention is to move your old 401ks, I think your life will be easier if you open a new tIRA for that purpose. If you want to roll that into your new 401k, that would likely be less work / documentation on your end.

It's certainly less complicated if you're able to directly contribute to a Roth IRA. You should consider how close you are to the threshold of not being able to do that before you decide to have a nonzero tIRA balances.

I'm sorry, but I'm not familiar enough with tax rules to know how your wife having a tIRA balance affects things. I've only ever filed as a single person.
That is what I was thinking to do. As long as trad. portion of the 401Ks needs to be in 401K for roth conversion to minimize RMD, I can just roll over trad portion from 2 401Ks into 401k from a new employer. I don't know what funds are available yet. Enrollment into 401k start after 90 days of employment.
Topic Author
lepa71
Posts: 392
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2016 5:12 pm

Re: Should I concolidate prior 401Ks

Post by lepa71 »

ruralavalon wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 9:55 am
lepa71 wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 10:07 pm I'm starting a new job and I'm wondering if I should roll over 2 other 401Ks into Vanguard. Both 401ks have trad and roth in them. Funds that are available there are not the best and I do have my brokerage, trad, and roth IRAs at the vanguard. In 2021 I have to clean up my trad IRA from non-deductible contributions so it is 0 balance right now.
So my other question is how long do I have to wait until I can use that account?

Thanks
Does your new employer offer a plan with good funds and low expense ratios? If so it may be best to rollover the old 401k accounts into your new employer's plan.

What funds are offered in your new employer's plan? Please give fund names, tickers, and expense ratios. Are any additional fees charged the plan participants, besides the expense ratios?
I don't know yet. I'm starting on Monday and there is a 30 days period before I become eligible for 401k contribution. New employer matches 100% for 5%
thegasmaster
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Re: Should I concolidate prior 401Ks

Post by thegasmaster »

I like all 401k money to be in my current employer plan so that if I retire early at 55 it is available to me. I believe the Rule of 55 only applies to the employer plan for the company you retire from.
Topic Author
lepa71
Posts: 392
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2016 5:12 pm

Re: Should I concolidate prior 401Ks

Post by lepa71 »

thegasmaster wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 10:20 am I like all 401k money to be in my current employer plan so that if I retire early at 55 it is available to me. I believe the Rule of 55 only applies to the employer plan for the company you retire from.
I don't think there is such a rule of 55 in 401k. It could be on some kind of pension plan. I used to work for a company with ESOP retirement plan. They had a rule of 55 for withdrawal of a portion of the money but now all without penalties.
exodusNH
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Re: Should I concolidate prior 401Ks

Post by exodusNH »

lepa71 wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 10:07 am
exodusNH wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 5:29 am
lepa71 wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 11:02 pm
exodusNH wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 10:30 pm
lepa71 wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 10:18 pm

When I talked about "So my other question is how long do I have to wait until I can use that account?" I was asking for my cleaned-up Trad IRA.
Can you explain more why I would need to roll over trad IRA into a new 401K? I don't really know what funds I will get in the new 401k yet. I know for sure that the new 401k has trad and roth options.

Thanks
I'm not quite sure what "cleaned up" means. You can always open up a new IRA. You can have as many individual accounts as you want. The IRS considers them one gigantic bucket of money, but for organizational purposes you can have as many as you want.

If you want to take advantage of the backdoor Roth process, you need to have no other money in a traditional IRA (tIRA). By rolling your old 401ks into new tIRA and Roth IRA accounts, you can then just roll your tIRAs into the 401k to keep a $0 tIRA balance.

I recommend rolling the 401ks into new accounts because some plans won't allow rolling in of IRAs that have non-rollover money in it.

Regardless, keeping the rIRA makes sense as you get full freedom on the holdings and have no fees besides the fund fees. 401ks usually have administrative fees.
I end up with a portion in my trad IRA that was a non-deductible contribution. I had to roll over an amount based on my 8606 form into Roth ira but before I could do it I had to roll over the rest of the money into my 401k. This is why my current Trad IRA has 0 balance right now. Because of my income I decided to just contribute the full amount to Roth IRA from now on for myself but for my wife, we still contribute to trad IRA. Does it matter if she has a trad IRA account with not-zero balance?
Your tIRA can be used right away. However, if your intention is to move your old 401ks, I think your life will be easier if you open a new tIRA for that purpose. If you want to roll that into your new 401k, that would likely be less work / documentation on your end.

It's certainly less complicated if you're able to directly contribute to a Roth IRA. You should consider how close you are to the threshold of not being able to do that before you decide to have a nonzero tIRA balances.

I'm sorry, but I'm not familiar enough with tax rules to know how your wife having a tIRA balance affects things. I've only ever filed as a single person.
That is what I was thinking to do. As long as trad. portion of the 401Ks needs to be in 401K for roth conversion to minimize RMD, I can just roll over trad portion from 2 401Ks into 401k from a new employer. I don't know what funds are available yet. Enrollment into 401k start after 90 days of employment.
I don't know how easy it is to partially roll a 401k to a new plan. Perhaps other members can comment. You might save yourself some grief rolling them into new IRAs, then rolling that into the new plan once eligible.
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ruralavalon
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Re: Should I concolidate prior 401Ks

Post by ruralavalon »

lepa71 wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 10:15 am
ruralavalon wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 9:55 am
lepa71 wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 10:07 pm I'm starting a new job and I'm wondering if I should roll over 2 other 401Ks into Vanguard. Both 401ks have trad and roth in them. Funds that are available there are not the best and I do have my brokerage, trad, and roth IRAs at the vanguard. In 2021 I have to clean up my trad IRA from non-deductible contributions so it is 0 balance right now.
So my other question is how long do I have to wait until I can use that account?

Thanks
Does your new employer offer a plan with good funds and low expense ratios? If so it may be best to rollover the old 401k accounts into your new employer's plan.

What funds are offered in your new employer's plan? Please give fund names, tickers, and expense ratios. Are any additional fees charged the plan participants, besides the expense ratios?
I don't know yet. I'm starting on Monday and there is a 30 days period before I become eligible for 401k contribution. New employer matches 100% for 5%
I suggest waiting to make the rollover decision until you know what's available in your new employer's plan.
"Everything should be as simple as it is, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein | Wiki article link: Bogleheads® investment philosophy
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Eagle33
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Re: Should I concolidate prior 401Ks

Post by Eagle33 »

ruralavalon wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 2:24 pm I suggest waiting to make the rollover decision until you know what's available in your new employer's plan.
+1
Okay for now to see what options are possible, but hold off making a decision and certainly before taking any action until you know what is possible in new job's 401k. Gather all the facts before making the best decision for you.
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