Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

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esqu1re
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by esqu1re »

My wife was into drawing in high school. You could say she was passionate about it. When she immigrated to the U.S., her parents pushed her and her younger sister into accounting. I've never heard anyone passionate about accounting and they're both dispassionate about it today. In fact, both of them have tried to do other things with their lives, but keep coming back to accounting because it's stable (especially in the government).

I think people get too wound up in this country about having their job also be their passion. I think it's great if you can be passionate about your job and it sure helps the day go by, but you're not a failure if you're not passionate about your job. So long as you do not hate your job or what you do, I think having a job that is tolerable and pays decently can help you fund what you're really passionate about.
bogledogle
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by bogledogle »

Afty wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:17 pm Someone posted this Venn diagram in a previous thread, and I thought it applicable to this thread:

Image
+1

My advice to my kids will be to grow/nurture/follow their passion outside of their profession. If you work for someone and you are too passionate about your job, you will end up being disappointed since you won't have autonomy.

You can like your job and be terrible at it or hate your job and be great at it. They are not correlated. Find something you can be good at and pays enough to thrive.
Isabelle77
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by Isabelle77 »

bogledogle wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:40 pm
Afty wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:17 pm Someone posted this Venn diagram in a previous thread, and I thought it applicable to this thread:

Image
+1

My advice to my kids will be to grow/nurture/follow their passion outside of their profession. If you work for someone and you are too passionate about your job, you will end up being disappointed since you won't have autonomy.

You can like your job and be terrible at it or hate your job and be great at it. They are not correlated. Find something you can be good at and pays enough to thrive.
Love this diagram, texted it to my kids :)
harrychan
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by harrychan »

Zillions wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:48 pm So why should I advice my kids to "follow their passion"? Are the FAANG-ers and MBB-ers and rocket scientists and orthopedic surgeons here telling their own kids this? Is working for MBB or FAANG or doing neurosurgery really a "passion"?

I don't mean any offence, I am genuinely curious about this advice which I do not intend to pass on to my own kids. Why would I be wrong to tell my kid to go after a FAANG job or an MBB job or pursue neurosurgery if the kid(s) has / have the smarts & the ability to make it?
Because it is very narrow definition to happiness and success. My parents were immigrants out of China and they knew nothing about the outside world or colleges. Hindsight, that was blessing in disguise as I had to rely on my own to do my research, find schools and careers. But it also meant I didn't have to luxury to try different things, take a gap year or make mistakes. It also didn't help that I didn't have unrestricted right to work in the US so I had to work within that confine AND be exceptional at what I do.

After working for 25+ years, I was very fortunate to be able to find something I am good at but also have interest in it. Is it my passion? No. I work to be able to enjoy my passion. Not vice versa. I find jobs where I have a respectable income and be able to work 40 hours a week so I can spend time outside work enjoying my family, raising my boys, and hobbies. Previously, I spent over 10 years mentoring youths. I can foresee me going into career coaching in the near future.
This is not legal or certified financial advice but you know that already.
WhyNotUs
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by WhyNotUs »

I suspect I fall in the Win section in the graphic. Toyed with the idea of retiring this summer but after a month off, I was looking forward to getting back involved. Am self-employed and have been lucky enough to be a time millionaire as well. Time has probably meant as much as anything else, especially being involved in school and community when our children were young. It makes a difference.

Chose a degree in Philosophy over CIS and glad that I did. It gave me a set of analytic skills that have served me well in unrelated field/s. I did enjoy using my symbolic logic skills in CIS for a while but ran out of enthusiasm for the field of study. Knowing that high income was likely was not enough motivation.
I own the next hot stock- VTSAX
kleiner
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by kleiner »

I discovered electronics when I was 12 and started building digital circuits by the time I was 15. Right from then, I always knew I wanted to work with computers and artificial intelligence (this was the late 1970s). I got my bachelors and PhD in computer science in the early (dissertation was on machine learning - one of the earliest!).

The small problem was that I was about 15 years too early for machine learning so I worked in other fields in computer science. Eventually the world caught up with my interests and I got paid a ridiculous amount of money for the last 12 years of my career. I am now retired and spend my days studying human cognition - had enough of the artificial kind :happy
cbeck
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by cbeck »

Normchad wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:16 pm “Follow your passion” is garbage advice. I wish people would stop repeating something so stupid. Especially to kids who have basically zero ability to make good decisions, and lack enough life perspective to know the consequences.

Mike Rowe (from Dirty Jobs) has a TED talk, specifically about how bad this advice is.

A better recommendation is to take your passion with you, wherever you end up. Figure out how to make enough $$$ for a good life, and if need be, enjoy your passion in your off time. Or apply it to your job.
At last a word of reason. I find the "follow your passion" advice to be as offensive as it is stupid, since it is an expression of the underlying sense of entitlement that infects American culture. Why should the world care about your "passion?"

How about "Become competent" as an alternative?
fortunefavored
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by fortunefavored »

Plenty of people started a career in their passion.. only to end up hating it later, but then felt trapped because of the money/experience/responsibilities they built up.

Oops, maybe that's just me.
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anon_investor
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by anon_investor »

fortunefavored wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:28 pm Plenty of people started a career in their passion.. only to end up hating it later, but then felt trapped because of the money/experience/responsibilities they built up.

Oops, maybe that's just me.
You sound like half the people I went to law school with who wanted to change the world and ended up in biglaw...
humblecoder
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by humblecoder »

cbeck wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:44 pm
Normchad wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:16 pm “Follow your passion” is garbage advice. I wish people would stop repeating something so stupid. Especially to kids who have basically zero ability to make good decisions, and lack enough life perspective to know the consequences.

Mike Rowe (from Dirty Jobs) has a TED talk, specifically about how bad this advice is.

A better recommendation is to take your passion with you, wherever you end up. Figure out how to make enough $$$ for a good life, and if need be, enjoy your passion in your off time. Or apply it to your job.
At last a word of reason. I find the "follow your passion" advice to be as offensive as it is stupid, since it is an expression of the underlying sense of entitlement that infects American culture. Why should the world care about your "passion?"

How about "Become competent" as an alternative?
I suppose my posts on this topic have gotten lost in this thread. Normally, I just make my case and move on, but sometimes I can't help myself. :D

Unfortunately, people take these pieces of advice to extremes. Of course, just blindly "following your passion" isn't great advice. That's obvious. However, it is equally obvious that the other extreme, "ignore your passion" is equally bad advice.

I think the way that you, the OP, Normchad, and others have framed it up is too black and white and does not reflect reality. Reality is much more gray. One should obviously take into account one's ability to make a living. However, there are dozens if not hundreds of ways to be successful financial (or at least make enough money to have a good life). So why not pick something which you enjoy or at least tolerate? And while you are at it, pick something that you are good at? If you find that nuanced concept to be offensive and you think that everybody should be miserable toiling at something they hate, then honestly, I don't know what to tell you other than please don't project your misery on others who happen to be doing something that they enjoy and are able to make a good living at it.

Take me for instance. I am good at math, science. I enjoy puzzles and logic problems. I went into software development because it allowed me to use my skills to puzzle out solutions to thorny logic problems. I know I get satisfaction out of that. Is it my passion, though? Maybe. If I didn't have to worry about getting paid, I think I'd enjoy playing around with new tech and such, but I also have other interests like board gaming, hiking outdoors, posting rants on here (I have a passion for debating too, if you haven't noticed :D) which I'd probably also spend time on.

So did I follow my passion? Sort of. I picked something that I knew I'd enjoy doing among all of the other things that I could do for money, but it probably isn't my #1 passion.

I would imagine that many people have a similar story about how they got into the field that they got into. They probably picked something among the possible career choices that would give them some satisfaction if not enjoyment.

My main problem with the OP is that he/she (I think it is a she but I can't remember so I'll go gender neutral for now) seems to have artificially narrowed the possible career choices for his/her children to FAANG, MBB (I learned a new term), or medical doctor. That is a much narrower selection among all of the other possible fields where you can make a living. Basically he/she has defined everything else as "following my passion" with all of the negative connotations that come with that phrase. But that makes no logical sense.

Why not include accountant? Actuary (actuaries make better money than MD's!)? Plumber? Lawyer? Sales? Financial Planner (a dirty word in these parts but still necessary and potentially lucrative)? Auto mechanic? These are all careers where you can make a comfortable living, and they cater to people with different interests and dare I say "passions".

Anyway, I am tired of this thread, so I guess this will be my last word. If people want to view the world in black and white terms, then I guess I can't stop them! :beer
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bottlecap
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by bottlecap »

You can’t just blindly follow your passion; to follow your passion and be successful, you have to have passion and a plan. Few have both, but a plan often does develop one way or another. Most make it work. As long as it’s a viable plan, you can make ends meet.

JT
Normchad
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by Normchad »

fortunefavored wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:28 pm Plenty of people started a career in their passion.. only to end up hating it later, but then felt trapped because of the money/experience/responsibilities they built up.

Oops, maybe that's just me.
I think about this a lot. It’s true for me. I’ve heard the quip “If you want to hate what you love, do it for a living”. It sounds cool to be a pro golfer, but I bet after a few years I’d grow to hate that.

My mechanical engineer friend wanted to design the next Corvette. Unfortunately not a lot of folks at GM get that job. Last I talked to him, he was trying to figure out how to save 3 cents on each door handle for a Buick.

I fly a lot for work; to the point where I recognize the pilots in my usual routes. I bet they grew up dreaming to be a pilot. And worked hard to get there. And now they fly from Tampa to Baltimore, to Providence and back every day. Like a bus driver in the sky. I’d love to hear how that pilot feels about life. I’m hoping he’d say “dude. It’s freaking awesome. Taking off and staring out at the sky never gets old”.
dcabler
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by dcabler »

harrychan wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:52 pm
Zillions wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:48 pm So why should I advice my kids to "follow their passion"? Are the FAANG-ers and MBB-ers and rocket scientists and orthopedic surgeons here telling their own kids this? Is working for MBB or FAANG or doing neurosurgery really a "passion"?

I don't mean any offence, I am genuinely curious about this advice which I do not intend to pass on to my own kids. Why would I be wrong to tell my kid to go after a FAANG job or an MBB job or pursue neurosurgery if the kid(s) has / have the smarts & the ability to make it?
Because it is very narrow definition to happiness and success. My parents were immigrants out of China and they knew nothing about the outside world or colleges. Hindsight, that was blessing in disguise as I had to rely on my own to do my research, find schools and careers. But it also meant I didn't have to luxury to try different things, take a gap year or make mistakes. It also didn't help that I didn't have unrestricted right to work in the US so I had to work within that confine AND be exceptional at what I do.

After working for 25+ years, I was very fortunate to be able to find something I am good at but also have interest in it. Is it my passion? No. I work to be able to enjoy my passion. Not vice versa. I find jobs where I have a respectable income and be able to work 40 hours a week so I can spend time outside work enjoying my family, raising my boys, and hobbies. Previously, I spent over 10 years mentoring youths. I can foresee me going into career coaching in the near future.
Agree with this. I've always considered work to be more about enabling my life as opposed to being my life.
nigel_ht
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by nigel_ht »

Elsebet wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:52 pm
Starfish wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:18 am I cannot allow my kid to play videogames just because he might like it later in life. Its just way too risky and it is damaging anyway. There must be better ways to get there.
I played video games a ton when I was a kid and I turned out alright. I still play them. There is a lot of vocabulary in video games that I learned. For example, the words spetum, targe, and cestus I learned from playing Diablo 2. Even older, the Atari game Pole position taught me a bit about physics and Combat taught me about ricochet/angles. I learned a lot of Celtic, Norse, and British words/places from playing Dark Age of Camelot, specifically svartalf and thrall.
DOAC...memories. Heh, I remember when our high level rogues (or whatever) bankrupted the other two realms by sneaking in and damaging their gates while the other side wasn't defending. We had to be pretty sneaky given we were the least populated realm.

You gotta admit though, MMORPGs are massive time sinks.
nigel_ht
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by nigel_ht »

Afty wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:17 pm Someone posted this Venn diagram in a previous thread, and I thought it applicable to this thread:

Image
Rich but bored is also a win condition. You have the resources to be not bored after work.

This diagram sucks because it implies that the circles will always overlap. The reality is that they often don't.
sweetnpsycho
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by sweetnpsycho »

OP,

I am currently a physician that makes in the 95th - 99th percentile income for physicians. I believe I qualify as a "high income earner" so I'll present 1 data point -- mine:

I can't say "following my passion" was a key to my success as I didn't have a passion when I was in high school or college. I liked girls and video games then. I started in the lower-middle class and by the time I finished high school, my family would be considered middle class for that city. I had no connections to the elite.

In college, I majored in business and had no intention of becoming a doctor. I graduated college with the intent of becoming an entrepreneur. It doesn't make sense in retrospect; why is a college degree needed for entrepreneurship? My first business was online and at the time there weren't simple options like Shopify. Online business required some programming so I did a bit of that. I did everything wrong and my business failed after 6 months. And I learned I hated programming.

So I decided to get a job. I thought I could easily get a six-figure job just because I graduated from college with good grades. But I was wrong. I was unemployed for quite some time. My parents were upset at me because I wasted all that money and time for college and had nothing to show for it.

I did pick up one good habit after graduating college and it was reading. I read whatever caught my attention. I devours books about business, especially about investing. I read like crazy. I also started with unpaid internships in business and transitioned to various entry-level jobs in business. I learned a bit about marketing and a bit about recruiting and a lot about accounting. I got very good at individual taxation and was even encouraged to become a CPA. I wasn't making a lot of money though, but I was getting exposure and experience.

After a bad day at work (getting reamed by my boss for something I didn't do), I decided to pivot because I couldn't see myself doing this for the rest of my life. I decided to go into medicine because I couldn't think of anything better. So I went back to school and took all the basic science classes that I didn't take in business school. I went to school part-time and worked part-time and volunteered part-time to build up my resume. Money was tight. I took the MCAT after 1 year of part-time school (prior to finishing my prerequisite science classes) and scored decently. By God's grace, I was accepted into medical school without finishing all my prerequisite science classes yet. I would complete them right before starting medical school.

In medical school, I studied very hard. But whatever free time I had after studying and not spent with girls, I spent it reading and retrying my hand at entrepreneurship. I kept on reading about businesses but branched out to other topics like psychology and political science and whatever was interesting. My second business was more successful than my first as I focused more on marketing than the technical backend and it was growing and I was eventually able to automate income from that. Overall, medical school was a difficult time for me as there was so much on my plate. I didn't enjoy medical school very much but I passed all my classes and exams.

After graduating medical school, I started residency then dropped out as I hated it. I worked on my business instead. I refined my skills in copywriting and storytelling. The business grew but I was feeling unhappy about my work. It wasn't fun anymore. Being an entrepreneur is very isolating and I decided it wasn't for me. I went back to medicine, to another residency in my current specialty, which is a huge blessing from God. I fell in love with the specialty and spent my free time reading all I can about it. I also started another business but I quickly saw it was going to fail and closed it. After a few years, I graduated top of my program.

After graduating residency, I wanted to learn more about the business side of medicine and jumped into private practice as a potential partner to a guy who was promising the moon (but couldn't deliver, which I later found out). I learned all I could about private practice within 3 months and realized there is nothing else to learn. I left as soon as I could because I was getting screwed over financially and didn't have control of the practice to turns things around. I didn't want to make money for a guy I didn't trust. I then jumped into a different setting in a different institution. I looked for honesty first and looked at payment structure second. I became an even better clinician working in a higher stress and higher acuity setting. After a few months, I understood how the institution worked and approached my boss with an idea that increased his pay by a few hundred thousand a year. This idea was based on my previous knowledge and experiences. Implementing the idea also benefited me as it increased my pay a lot. He took me under his wing.

I still read whatever I feel is interesting (which is harder to find these days) and am very open to new experiences. I know what my passion is today but that is due to trial and error. I've crafted a position that is rewarding with a lot of autonomy that fits my personality and strengths.

I will attribute my financial success in a large part to following my curiosity by 1) accumulating a wide range of knowledge and combine different ideas and 2) being willing to experiment and take calculated risks. I was never pushed by my parents.
Olemiss540
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by Olemiss540 »

Seems like an OP just to stir a pot with "whenever X happens, people around here say Y" speaking in generalities for a reaction around child rearing which is obviously a passionate subject for most adults.

Can we focus on actionable personal finance topics instead of parenting discussions?

There is no black and white with parental technics but there is certainly staunch unwavering positions that have no benefits hashing out on bogleheads IMO.

You do you OP and as long as it comes from a place of Love, I am sure it will work wonderfully.
I hold index funds because I do not overestimate my ability to pick stocks OR stock pickers.
FireProof
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by FireProof »

"Follow your passion" is part of what makes American work culture uniquely unhealthy. People expect too much out of their jobs - not just a salary, but also fulfillment and an identity. We're the only country in the world, possibly in history, where upper income people work more than lower-income people. To put it in cliche form, Americans live to work, whereas Europeans work to live. And that message is just as toxic for lower-income people, because realistically there's no way most of their jobs are providing fulfillment or identity, so they feel unhappy and inferior. My message to my kids about work will be to minimize its impact on your life.
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Elsebet
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by Elsebet »

nigel_ht wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:09 pm DOAC...memories. Heh, I remember when our high level rogues (or whatever) bankrupted the other two realms by sneaking in and damaging their gates while the other side wasn't defending. We had to be pretty sneaky given we were the least populated realm.

You gotta admit though, MMORPGs are massive time sinks.
Yes, 100% agree. However they are not wholly without merit. I find it to be like any vice, better in moderation.
"...the man who adapts himself to his slender means and makes himself wealthy on a little sum, is the truly rich man..." ~Seneca
Carguy85
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by Carguy85 »

FireProof wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:32 am "Follow your passion" is part of what makes American work culture uniquely unhealthy. People expect too much out of their jobs - not just a salary, but also fulfillment and an identity......My message to my kids about work will be to minimize its impact on your life.
After much retrospect, I think this is what my grandpa was getting at with his advice and. Work smart and hard... go into a profession that will afford me to follow my passions and not have to work crazy hours. 20 years later I’m thankful for the guidance (from him and my parents). I hated college and certainly wasn’t the college type but wanted to minimize my time in college so I made perfect grades. I’ve come to realize that two major passions of mine, airplanes and cars, would likely no longer be passions of mine if I had to live out of hotel rooms and miss family events/holidays. I’ve come to find that there are very few jobs that are under 35-40 hours a week that earn well into 6 figure territory. I guess they did know what they were taking about all after all . :happy btw my grandpa was not college educated and one of the few in his family to break the chains of poverty not only for him but also for his kids which both became very successful.
MathWizard
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by MathWizard »

Follow your passion is horrible advice for a career.

You may be passionate about something, but terrible at it.

1) You have to support yourself, so you need to make money.
2) You may only have to work 40 hrs. a week, sleep maybe 56 hrs a week.
There is plenty of other time to pursue your passion.

Life is about compromise. Find something in which you can earn money to support yourself
and which you can stand to do for the next 30-50 years.

I did not push my kids into anything, but did teach them logic and mathematics.
My wife taught them music. They also absorbed lessons about money.

Both boys are doing fine on their own now.
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HanSolo
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by HanSolo »

Your post neatly combines several themes in this thread. To summarize:
MathWizard wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:12 pm Follow your passion is horrible advice for a career.
Step 1. Don't tell your kid "follow your passion".
I did not push my kids into anything,
Step 2. Don't push your kid into your own pre-defined career concept.
but did teach them logic and mathematics.
My wife taught them music. They also absorbed lessons about money.
Step 3. Allow the kid to learn and explore.
Both boys are doing fine on their own now.
Result: The above has been known to work.

Are we there yet?
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mrmass
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by mrmass »

Read about Todd Marinovich and how his dad brought him up. https://www.sportscasting.com/todd-mari ... gs-prison/

Basically dad groomed him from very early on. Stretching hamstrings as infant, etc.

Then there are the Menendez brothers...
Starfish
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by Starfish »

Why do you have to teach your kids logic, mathematics, music? What is the school for?
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HanSolo
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by HanSolo »

Starfish wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:59 pm Why do you have to teach your kids logic, mathematics, music? What is the school for?
Nobody said that anyone has to do anything. You have options.
VBIAX and chill (in taxable)
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celia
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by celia »

We encouraged our kids to ‘follow your passion as long as you will be able to support yourself afterwords’. But there are lots of caveats that go along with this:

* Do well in elementary school and high school so you can get college scholarships because we can’t afford to pay for all of it. Also minimize student debt. (We were successful in helping them graduate debt-free although grad school was on them. I encouraged the social one to be an RA after the first year, which then gave her free room and board in exchange.)

* Many jobs that will be available later on don’t yet exist, so be well-rounded outside your major. (FAANG didn’t exist when our FAANG kid started college. Besides a CS major at a college known for it, he took lots of Spanish classes and a summer in Spain which helped him be recognized as Phi Beta Kappa, which is rare for CS students. Also did volunteer work in another country to help set up a robotics program.)

* Kids may have no idea of what jobs pay in relationship to other jobs. (I had a kid knock on our door selling candy bars for a school team and I asked what school he went to and what he wanted to be. He liked the idea of working with the elderly in a nursing home as an aide. Since he was attending the most academic HS in our area, we spent an hour talking about the ‘hierarchy’ of jobs in the medical field which sort of interested him. I compared it to the ‘hierarchy’ of jobs at a school from the lunch staff up to the principal. Then he understood. I explained that he doesn’t need the highest-paid job, but he should aim higher, if he wanted to support a family or live in un upscale neighborhood like ours, which he was admiring. He was soaking it all in and I emphasized that he needs to avoid a police record (and being in a gang which is prevalent where he lives) since he will need to pass a background check if he works in the medical or education field. Get involved in school activities and get to know the school counselors instead. He left quite excited and wanted to share our conversation with his single mom who likely didn’t know how to get ahead, except by getting him into the best school in the area.)

* About half of college-entering students have no idea what to major in or change their mind in the first year. That’s perfectly fine. Use the first year to explore different fields that appeal to you as long as each class counts towards the general ed requirement.
Broken Man 1999
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by Broken Man 1999 »

From the WSJ weekend edition, October 9-10:The Real Meaning of Freedom at Work

"...More than a decade ago, psychologists documented a generational shift in the centrality of work in our lives. Millennials were more interested in jobs that provided leisure time and vacation time than Gen Xers and baby boomers..."

If my interpretation of the statements above is correct, Millennials aren't seeking passion in their employment, their passions are such that their work needs to accommodate them.

Personally I think that is a healthier outlook, anyway. I think likewise. I don't live to work, I worked to live. I didn't have my worth determined/connected to my employment at a job.

Broken Man 1999
“If I cannot drink Bourbon and smoke cigars in Heaven then I shall not go." - Mark Twain
nigel_ht
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by nigel_ht »

Elsebet wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:56 am
nigel_ht wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:09 pm DOAC...memories. Heh, I remember when our high level rogues (or whatever) bankrupted the other two realms by sneaking in and damaging their gates while the other side wasn't defending. We had to be pretty sneaky given we were the least populated realm.

You gotta admit though, MMORPGs are massive time sinks.
Yes, 100% agree. However they are not wholly without merit. I find it to be like any vice, better in moderation.
There will always be some folks that can crash and burn with any vice whether food, alcohol, drugs or gaming.

Had a guildmate in EQ who gave away all his gear and deleted his account because he was playing so much he was fired and was getting evicted.

Rare though.
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by harrychan »

sweetnpsycho wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:54 pm

I am currently a physician that makes in the 95th - 99th percentile income for physicians. I believe I qualify as a "high income earner" so I'll present 1 data point -- mine:
Great read! Mind if you share a general timeline? Especially when you started medical school and after finishing residency?
This is not legal or certified financial advice but you know that already.
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by Starfish »

nigel_ht wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:42 pm
Elsebet wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:56 am
nigel_ht wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:09 pm DOAC...memories. Heh, I remember when our high level rogues (or whatever) bankrupted the other two realms by sneaking in and damaging their gates while the other side wasn't defending. We had to be pretty sneaky given we were the least populated realm.

You gotta admit though, MMORPGs are massive time sinks.
Yes, 100% agree. However they are not wholly without merit. I find it to be like any vice, better in moderation.
There will always be some folks that can crash and burn with any vice whether food, alcohol, drugs or gaming.

Had a guildmate in EQ who gave away all his gear and deleted his account because he was playing so much he was fired and was getting evicted.

Rare though.
I think that could be actually the good case.
The bad case would be to play for several hours a week for many years. Especially when time is very very previous, between say between 10 and 30. Which is pretty much the age people spend time on videogames.
Last edited by Starfish on Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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HomerJ
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by HomerJ »

Starfish wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:45 pm
nigel_ht wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:42 pm
Elsebet wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:56 am
nigel_ht wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:09 pm DOAC...memories. Heh, I remember when our high level rogues (or whatever) bankrupted the other two realms by sneaking in and damaging their gates while the other side wasn't defending. We had to be pretty sneaky given we were the least populated realm.

You gotta admit though, MMORPGs are massive time sinks.
Yes, 100% agree. However they are not wholly without merit. I find it to be like any vice, better in moderation.
There will always be some folks that can crash and burn with any vice whether food, alcohol, drugs or gaming.

Had a guildmate in EQ who gave away all his gear and deleted his account because he was playing so much he was fired and was getting evicted.

Rare though.
I think that could be actually the good case.
The bad case would be to play for several hours a week for man years. Especially when time is very very previous, between say between 10 and 30. Which is pretty much the age people spend time on videogames.
Playing cards with friends or chess or ping-pong or basketball several hours a week would also then be a huge waste of precious time that should be used making money I guess.
A Goldman Sachs associate provided a variety of detailed explanations, but then offered a caveat, “If I’m being dead-### honest, though, nobody knows what’s really going on.”
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by Starfish »

HomerJ wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:47 pm
Starfish wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:45 pm
nigel_ht wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:42 pm
Elsebet wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:56 am
nigel_ht wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:09 pm DOAC...memories. Heh, I remember when our high level rogues (or whatever) bankrupted the other two realms by sneaking in and damaging their gates while the other side wasn't defending. We had to be pretty sneaky given we were the least populated realm.

You gotta admit though, MMORPGs are massive time sinks.
Yes, 100% agree. However they are not wholly without merit. I find it to be like any vice, better in moderation.
There will always be some folks that can crash and burn with any vice whether food, alcohol, drugs or gaming.

Had a guildmate in EQ who gave away all his gear and deleted his account because he was playing so much he was fired and was getting evicted.

Rare though.
I think that could be actually the good case.
The bad case would be to play for several hours a week for man years. Especially when time is very very previous, between say between 10 and 30. Which is pretty much the age people spend time on videogames.
Playing cards with friends or chess or ping-pong or basketball several hours a week would also then be a huge waste of precious time that should be used making money I guess.
I really don't know what to reply when somebody equates videogames with reading books, spending time with friends, going out, sports, playing with Legos, playing outside etc. They not only not similar, they are completely the opposite. Closest activity is watching TV, but we do not do that either (we do not even have a cable and screen time is limited to several hours in the weekend).
You don't need to read any study to realize that videogames are related to a lot of issues in today's generation.
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by Starfish »

Afty wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:17 pm Someone posted this Venn diagram in a previous thread, and I thought it applicable to this thread:

Image
I guess the point of the diagram is to start from the top and go counter clockwise.
I would say is the opposite: doing anything you like as a job ruins it. For example I hike and backpack as a hobby but if my job were to put 30lbs in my back and climb rocks for 12h at high altitude, I would think it's a pretty nasty job.
Probably the best way to chose a job is to start with something you are good at. Good as compared to other things you do, not in comparison with others.
Last edited by Starfish on Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by stoptothink »

HomerJ wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:47 pm
Starfish wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:45 pm
nigel_ht wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:42 pm
Elsebet wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:56 am
nigel_ht wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:09 pm DOAC...memories. Heh, I remember when our high level rogues (or whatever) bankrupted the other two realms by sneaking in and damaging their gates while the other side wasn't defending. We had to be pretty sneaky given we were the least populated realm.

You gotta admit though, MMORPGs are massive time sinks.
Yes, 100% agree. However they are not wholly without merit. I find it to be like any vice, better in moderation.
There will always be some folks that can crash and burn with any vice whether food, alcohol, drugs or gaming.

Had a guildmate in EQ who gave away all his gear and deleted his account because he was playing so much he was fired and was getting evicted.

Rare though.
I think that could be actually the good case.
The bad case would be to play for several hours a week for man years. Especially when time is very very previous, between say between 10 and 30. Which is pretty much the age people spend time on videogames.
Playing cards with friends or chess or ping-pong or basketball several hours a week would also then be a huge waste of precious time that should be used making money I guess.
I tend to agree, time wasted is time wasted, but those activities don't tend to be as addictive as video games and have some obviously beneficial side effects. Video games caused my SILs divorce and were the primary reason my BIL dropped out of school and lost a subsequent job. There are two instances in my family with pre-teens who are now in therapy because they are literally addicted to screens (mostly video games). As someone who has never really played them, but isn't necessarily against them, it is shocking to see how they can completely overtake some people's lives and how prevalent it is becoming. It's all about establishing boundaries.
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by Normchad »

Starfish wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:58 pm
HomerJ wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:47 pm
Starfish wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:45 pm
nigel_ht wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:42 pm
Elsebet wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:56 am

Yes, 100% agree. However they are not wholly without merit. I find it to be like any vice, better in moderation.
There will always be some folks that can crash and burn with any vice whether food, alcohol, drugs or gaming.

Had a guildmate in EQ who gave away all his gear and deleted his account because he was playing so much he was fired and was getting evicted.

Rare though.
I think that could be actually the good case.
The bad case would be to play for several hours a week for man years. Especially when time is very very previous, between say between 10 and 30. Which is pretty much the age people spend time on videogames.
Playing cards with friends or chess or ping-pong or basketball several hours a week would also then be a huge waste of precious time that should be used making money I guess.
I really don't know what to reply when somebody equates videogames with reading books, spending time with friends, going out, sports, playing with Legos, playing outside etc. They not only not similar, they are completely the opposite. Closest activity is watching TV, but we do not do that either (we do not even have a cable and screen time is limited to several hours in the weekend).
You don't need to read any study to realize that videogames are related to a lot of issues in today's generation.
I’m not a big gamer. But I think you are wrong.
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by Starfish »

Very important to know. :D
WhyNotUs
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by WhyNotUs »

This article offers some thoughts that may be elated to this discussion

https://www.vox.com/the-goods/22673605/ ... ew-stewart
I own the next hot stock- VTSAX
stoptothink
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by stoptothink »

WhyNotUs wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:15 pm This article offers some thoughts that may be elated to this discussion

https://www.vox.com/the-goods/22673605/ ... ew-stewart
Typical VOX article, some good points but a very very obvious slant.
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by KlangFool »

Folks,

There is another way and the BH is keenly aware of this. Aka, "Enough". The middle ground.

1) Get a good "enough" job or do a business with a decent income.

2) LBYM.

3) Save and invest.

Do not have to be the smartest. Do not have to be high income. Do this long enough, you could afford a decent life from both your salary income and investment income.

Income is not wealth. Lesson from "The Millionaire Next Door".

KlangFool
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by JPM »

Random thoughts on following one's passion;

Passions change. I was passionate about K once. But not for long. Then I was passionate about MK. But not for long. Then I was passionate about...

In HS I was passionate about playing basketball. Too short for college ball. Played until I was 56 and got an injury that wouldn't heal. Not passionate about coaching it or watching it or thinking about it. Not passionate about studies while in school. Liked my volunteer work, not passionate about it but it suited me. Passion for medicine developed slowly, not all at once. Started in third year med school when I canned plan A because I thought I might commit murder on the next parent who covered her kid with cigarette burns or beat his kid bloody with any handy object. So I started on plan B. Did research in 4th year and that was exciting as hell. One thing led to another. Then it turned out I was good at solving diagnostic puzzles and enjoyed learning as much about diagnostic medicine as I could. Still do. Fortunately it turned out I had an undeveloped talent for organizing and put that to developing a clinic. Who woulda thunk it?

DN4 follows his passion. He plays guitar, sings, and writes songs. Not well enough to make a living but he has a trust fund so no problem. DN6 has published 5 or 6 volumes of poetry following his passion. Makes a living as a gubmint drone where he could do the job in his sleep. His life occurs at his writing desk, not his job.

DN1 had a passion for hockey. He sells beer. DN2's passion was hockey, he's an accountant. DN 5's passion was hockey and he is a Techspert. DN7 is a college professor and DN 3 is a lawyer, I don't know what their passions were/are.

I knew a few guys whose passions were math and poker in high school. They got rich in the Chicago trading pits. Sometimes following the passion works out, sometimes not.
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by Olemiss540 »

Starfish wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:58 pm
HomerJ wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:47 pm
Starfish wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:45 pm
nigel_ht wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:42 pm
Elsebet wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:56 am

Yes, 100% agree. However they are not wholly without merit. I find it to be like any vice, better in moderation.
There will always be some folks that can crash and burn with any vice whether food, alcohol, drugs or gaming.

Had a guildmate in EQ who gave away all his gear and deleted his account because he was playing so much he was fired and was getting evicted.

Rare though.
I think that could be actually the good case.
The bad case would be to play for several hours a week for man years. Especially when time is very very previous, between say between 10 and 30. Which is pretty much the age people spend time on videogames.
Playing cards with friends or chess or ping-pong or basketball several hours a week would also then be a huge waste of precious time that should be used making money I guess.
I really don't know what to reply when somebody equates videogames with reading books, spending time with friends, going out, sports, playing with Legos, playing outside etc. They not only not similar, they are completely the opposite. Closest activity is watching TV, but we do not do that either (we do not even have a cable and screen time is limited to several hours in the weekend).
You don't need to read any study to realize that videogames are related to a lot of issues in today's generation.
Which issues do you surmise video games created and for which birth years are effected?

This is the problem with threads like the OP that have no actionable outcome. People tend to turn them into a discourse full of hyperbole and anecdotal "evidence" better suited for a political forum.
I hold index funds because I do not overestimate my ability to pick stocks OR stock pickers.
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by nigel_ht »

Starfish wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:58 pm
HomerJ wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:47 pm
Starfish wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:45 pm
nigel_ht wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:42 pm
Elsebet wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:56 am

Yes, 100% agree. However they are not wholly without merit. I find it to be like any vice, better in moderation.
There will always be some folks that can crash and burn with any vice whether food, alcohol, drugs or gaming.

Had a guildmate in EQ who gave away all his gear and deleted his account because he was playing so much he was fired and was getting evicted.

Rare though.
I think that could be actually the good case.
The bad case would be to play for several hours a week for man years. Especially when time is very very previous, between say between 10 and 30. Which is pretty much the age people spend time on videogames.
Playing cards with friends or chess or ping-pong or basketball several hours a week would also then be a huge waste of precious time that should be used making money I guess.
I really don't know what to reply when somebody equates videogames with reading books, spending time with friends, going out, sports, playing with Legos, playing outside etc. They not only not similar, they are completely the opposite. Closest activity is watching TV, but we do not do that either (we do not even have a cable and screen time is limited to several hours in the weekend).
You don't need to read any study to realize that videogames are related to a lot of issues in today's generation.
While there is a difference between gaming with friends over the internet and gaming with friends in person it’s not so different that one is evil and the other good.

I do read papers from time to time so I looked for one. This popped up and seems fairly balanced. Like everything else, there are positives and negatives.

Neural Basis of Video Gaming: A Systematic Review. Frontiers in Human Neuroscience, 2017

Seems like your biases are based on personal opinion and not a whole lot more.
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by nigel_ht »

KlangFool wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:50 pm
Income is not wealth. Lesson from "The Millionaire Next Door".

KlangFool
Well, high income does help in the accumulation of wealth. A team that is all defense has a hard time putting points on the board.
KlangFool
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by KlangFool »

nigel_ht wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:16 pm
KlangFool wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:50 pm
Income is not wealth. Lesson from "The Millionaire Next Door".

KlangFool
Well, high income does help in the accumulation of wealth. A team that is all defense has a hard time putting points on the board.
high income does help in the accumulation of wealth.

Ceteris Paribus -> "holding other things constant,"

But that is seldom true.

Average gross saving rate of less than 5% is across all income levels.

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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by randomguy »

Zillions wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:48 pm
So why should I advice my kids to "follow their passion"? Are the FAANG-ers and MBB-ers and rocket scientists and orthopedic surgeons here telling their own kids this? Is working for MBB or FAANG or doing neurosurgery really a "passion"?

The follow your passion advice is given by the insanely successful who pretty much only can get there by being passionate. If you aren't passionate about playing your music instrument, you aren't going to practice 4 hours/day for 2 decades until your good. You will stop long before you hit your potential. If your not passionate about golf, you aren't going to practice from the second you get out of school til the sun sets (and then hit some more putts in your garage). To some extent FAANG coding is similar. You are going to be competing against people where their idea of a fun weekend is writing code. The did it for free for free starting as kids and are now amazed they are getting paid.

But we are talking about a small subset of jobs. Most people settle for a job they can do well, is tolerable, and the pay is decent. Picking a job you hate because of the cash is likely to make you one of the posters asking if they can retire at 30.....
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by MathWizard »

Starfish wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:59 pm Why do you have to teach your kids logic, mathematics, music? What is the school for?
Schools do not always teach things correctly.

I taught myself math and found teachers were handing out incorrect information. When my teacher sent a note home that I was confused about math,my mother told me to keep studying math and to stop answering questions in that class.

Schools really don't teach logic.

Music programs have been cut in our school system.

By teaching them ourselves , augmenting what the schools were presenting, our kids learned much more than they otherwise would have .
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by nigel_ht »

KlangFool wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:25 pm
nigel_ht wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:16 pm
KlangFool wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:50 pm
Income is not wealth. Lesson from "The Millionaire Next Door".

KlangFool
Well, high income does help in the accumulation of wealth. A team that is all defense has a hard time putting points on the board.
high income does help in the accumulation of wealth.

Ceteris Paribus -> "holding other things constant,"

But that is seldom true.

Average gross saving rate of less than 5% is across all income levels.

KlangFool
Well, assuming someone has the discipline to save at all, it’s easier with a high income.

Most folks able to FIRE had both high savings rate AND high income.
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by Beensabu »

Starfish wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:58 pm You don't need to read any study to realize that videogames are related to a lot of issues in today's generation.
Anything that is pursued as an escapist activity vs. an enjoyable pastime can become an issue and source of issues.

For me, as a child and teen, that was books. It was actually a problem. But nobody thought it was, so I got to do it.

If the youth feel the need to engage in an activity as an escape (which is what total and complete dedication to the activity and neglect of everything else is), maybe ask why. Why is a fantasy world better than this one?
"The only thing that makes life possible is permanent, intolerable uncertainty; not knowing what comes next." ~Ursula LeGuin
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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by KlangFool »

nigel_ht wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:16 pm
KlangFool wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:25 pm
nigel_ht wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:16 pm
KlangFool wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:50 pm
Income is not wealth. Lesson from "The Millionaire Next Door".

KlangFool
Well, high income does help in the accumulation of wealth. A team that is all defense has a hard time putting points on the board.
high income does help in the accumulation of wealth.

Ceteris Paribus -> "holding other things constant,"

But that is seldom true.

Average gross saving rate of less than 5% is across all income levels.

KlangFool
Well, assuming someone has the discipline to save at all, it’s easier with a high income.

Most folks able to FIRE had both high savings rate AND high income.
I disagreed. My extended family have plenty of FIRE folks across all income levels with high saving rate.

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Re: Is "following my passion" the only real reason?

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

nigel_ht wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:18 pm
Afty wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:17 pm Someone posted this Venn diagram in a previous thread, and I thought it applicable to this thread:

Image
Rich but bored is also a win condition. You have the resources to be not bored after work.

This diagram sucks because it implies that the circles will always overlap. The reality is that they often don't.
Rich but bored may be better than poor and overworked but it’s not a win either. I‘m not rich and bored but I‘ve known people who were. A potentially deadly combination.
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