To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

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wineandplaya
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by wineandplaya »

The barrier of entry to get into a good research group (with a good PI say at Stanford, MIT or equivalent) for CS grad school is high. You are also competing with college graduates from all over the world who make more than half of students in many (most?) groups.

Once you do graduate, as a US citizen or green card holder, you will have an edge over many of your peers due to US immigration rules making it hard for companies to hire foreign students, even if they went to grad school in the US.
JPM
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by JPM »

In regard to combining CS and finance, opportunity is there and will probably expand in the future.

Fifty years ago, trading at major investment banks occurred among traders on trading floors at the exchanges. About twenty-five years ago computers came in and trading was done by traders sitting at desks with multiple computers (Bloomberg terminals) tracking info that might affect their respective books. Money could sometimes get lost between the computers at the banks and the computers at the clearing facility then. Few traders at the time had enough understanding of computers to find the missing moneys. Then as a new generation of traders came in who understood computers better, they devised ways of concealing the kind of big losses that can get you fired by using the computer interfaces, while hoping for a turn. If the trade didn't turn in their favor, and their supervisors didn't catch on in time, they might blow a big hole in their banks' capital. Now trading is mainly done by computers with trades determined by algorithms that recognize triggers and execute trades. The guys who can acquire deep understandings of securities trading and deep understandings of computers will probably be making the big money by the time a fifteen year old finishes engineering school. Economics is not very relevant to this kind of work, but math and CS are.
BernardShakey
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by BernardShakey »

sents13 wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:43 pm
coachd50 wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:05 pm
As I said, I was looking to see how realistic the scenarios described were?

You (correctly) identified that the mirrored scenario I posted isn't terribly likely. I intentionally picked a mirrored scenario resulting in extreme high earnings to highlight my point. However, as I pointed out, it mirrors your scenario quite well. Also, it becomes a "self fulfilling prophecy" as you state quite often. The top recruits generally become the top college performers which generally become the top professionals which generally make the most $$$.

So are you suggesting that the path you described is the norm for Computer Science students?
If you can make it to FAANG early, yes that's the norm.
No, it's not. The scenario you described is not the norm regardless of how early you get in.
An important key to investing is having a well-calibrated sense of your future regret.
nigel_ht
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by nigel_ht »

BernardShakey wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:13 pm
sents13 wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:43 pm
coachd50 wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:05 pm
As I said, I was looking to see how realistic the scenarios described were?

You (correctly) identified that the mirrored scenario I posted isn't terribly likely. I intentionally picked a mirrored scenario resulting in extreme high earnings to highlight my point. However, as I pointed out, it mirrors your scenario quite well. Also, it becomes a "self fulfilling prophecy" as you state quite often. The top recruits generally become the top college performers which generally become the top professionals which generally make the most $$$.

So are you suggesting that the path you described is the norm for Computer Science students?
If you can make it to FAANG early, yes that's the norm.
No, it's not. The scenario you described is not the norm regardless of how early you get in.
If you get an internship and an offer the path described is optimistic (and it says so) but reasonable for a top performer. The "norm"?

The "norm" if you get these first two steps done right out of school is good even if you don't end up staying until E5 and cap out fairly quickly in a six figure non-FAANG salary in a lower HCOL or even MCOL area.

At that point 10 years and FIRE is doable unless the market tanks at the wrong time for you.
Afty
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by Afty »

There's just a lot more variance in software engineer outcomes than in MD outcomes. The high end is higher (e.g., start Amazon and become the richest person in the world) and the low end is lower. MD is a relatively safe but difficult route to the upper middle class.
bling
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by bling »

Afty wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:26 pm There's just a lot more variance in software engineer outcomes than in MD outcomes. The high end is higher (e.g., start Amazon and become the richest person in the world) and the low end is lower. MD is a relatively safe but difficult route to the upper middle class.
is it really "safe"? for an MD, you either make it, or you don't, there's really no middle ground here. for CS, there are tons in possibilities from the low-end to the high-end, but you're still working in all of them.
nigel_ht
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by nigel_ht »

bling wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:39 pm
Afty wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:26 pm There's just a lot more variance in software engineer outcomes than in MD outcomes. The high end is higher (e.g., start Amazon and become the richest person in the world) and the low end is lower. MD is a relatively safe but difficult route to the upper middle class.
is it really "safe"? for an MD, you either make it, or you don't, there's really no middle ground here. for CS, there are tons in possibilities from the low-end to the high-end, but you're still working in all of them.
5% of CS grads are unemployed on graduation (maybe it’s 6 mos of graduation? I forget).

But yes, failure conditions for the CS grads is much less…
core4portfolio
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by core4portfolio »

In my perspective, pick Engineering

1. Easily earn higher money in FANG companies
2. Timebox is lesser
3. Wide and challenging opportunities
4. Mistakes are reversible

No to Doctor for just 1 reason:
Are you happy when your doctor is money oriented ?

Often, I felt doctor add lot of tests and drain the money.
I also felt they are making sure they dont do any mistakes by taking additional tests else to be sued.
Might be 100% perfection is costing lot of money for patients :(

You should ask - besides money, where passion leans to ?
Passion should be driving factor for profession when you have 2 choices

Thanks
Allocation : 80/20 (90% TSM, 10% on ARKK,XBI,XLK/individual stocks and 20% TBM) | | Need to learn fishing sooner
BernardShakey
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by BernardShakey »

bling wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:39 pm
Afty wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:26 pm There's just a lot more variance in software engineer outcomes than in MD outcomes. The high end is higher (e.g., start Amazon and become the richest person in the world) and the low end is lower. MD is a relatively safe but difficult route to the upper middle class.
is it really "safe"? for an MD, you either make it, or you don't, there's really no middle ground here. for CS, there are tons in possibilities from the low-end to the high-end, but you're still working in all of them.
MD is a pretty sure ticket once accepted to a US allopathic medical school. The huge bottleneck is getting into that club. Once in, dropout rates are very low and residency placement rates are like 97%+.

If you want to practice in rural or semi-rural area, you'll make very, very nice money with LCOL or MCOL to boot.

Are there challenges going forward in medicine, yes. But for those that are inclined to serve and make a very direct and tangible impact on people's lives, it's a solid choice.
An important key to investing is having a well-calibrated sense of your future regret.
OrangeKiwi
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by OrangeKiwi »

nigel_ht wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:15 am
bling wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:39 pm
Afty wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:26 pm There's just a lot more variance in software engineer outcomes than in MD outcomes. The high end is higher (e.g., start Amazon and become the richest person in the world) and the low end is lower. MD is a relatively safe but difficult route to the upper middle class.
is it really "safe"? for an MD, you either make it, or you don't, there's really no middle ground here. for CS, there are tons in possibilities from the low-end to the high-end, but you're still working in all of them.
5% of CS grads are unemployed on graduation (maybe it’s 6 mos of graduation? I forget).

But yes, failure conditions for the CS grads is much less…
CS grads, for which there is a very low barrier to entry, are not comparable to MDs, for which there is a very high barrier to entry. The 5% of CA grads that are unemployed at graduation would easily be weeded out before they even got into med school.
nigel_ht
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by nigel_ht »

OrangeKiwi wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:33 am
nigel_ht wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:15 am
bling wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:39 pm
Afty wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:26 pm There's just a lot more variance in software engineer outcomes than in MD outcomes. The high end is higher (e.g., start Amazon and become the richest person in the world) and the low end is lower. MD is a relatively safe but difficult route to the upper middle class.
is it really "safe"? for an MD, you either make it, or you don't, there's really no middle ground here. for CS, there are tons in possibilities from the low-end to the high-end, but you're still working in all of them.
5% of CS grads are unemployed on graduation (maybe it’s 6 mos of graduation? I forget).

But yes, failure conditions for the CS grads is much less…
CS grads, for which there is a very low barrier to entry, are not comparable to MDs, for which there is a very high barrier to entry. The 5% of CA grads that are unemployed at graduation would easily be weeded out before they even got into med school.
Computer science dropout rate is like 10%. So with the 5% of unemployed graduates about 15%.

Med school dropout rates are between 15% and 18%.

Seems about the same until you realize not every med school grad can find a residency.

This year’s Match Day, held on March 20, was the largest in history, according to the NRMP, which reported that 40,084 applicants submitted program choices (or ranking lists) for 37,256 positions.

You have a lot of students who are unmatched who have been reporting working at delis, working as baristas. They might be teaching at a community college or something like that because they have an MD, but they can’t work clinically,” De said. “Service industry jobs are really common. Bartending, waitering or waitressing. There are a lot of unmatched students driving for Uber and Lyft, I will tell you that.”


https://news.yahoo.com/the-coronavirus- ... 05748.html

Gee…seems like a similar 6% underemployment statistic where the graduate ends up working Starbucks…

Dr. Cromblin is one of as many as 10,000 chronically unmatched doctors in the United States, people who graduated from medical school but are consistently rejected from residency programs. The National Resident Matching Program promotes its high match rate, with 94 percent of American medical students matching into residency programs last year on Match Day,

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/19/heal ... ctors.html

2020 didn’t get better…94% match rate is 6% failure rate.

Seems like the high barrier to entry and “weeding out” doesn’t work out to any better outcomes than for the incomparable CS grad…
international001
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by international001 »

I am not sure a 5% chance of being non-employable means a lot for the OP decission.

Either way, can you educate me? The 6% of MD no being employable is for international MD degrees only? I thought only American MD had a chance of residence, anyway. I'd think it would be great if MD all over the world would be able to get residency and a job in US, same as happen with CS and other degrees
nigel_ht
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by nigel_ht »

international001 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:18 pm I am not sure a 5% chance of being non-employable means a lot for the OP decission.

Either way, can you educate me? The 6% of MD no being employable is for international MD degrees only? I thought only American MD had a chance of residence, anyway. I'd think it would be great if MD all over the world would be able to get residency and a job in US, same as happen with CS and other degrees
From the NYT article:

“The National Resident Matching Program promotes its high match rate, with 94 percent of American medical students matching into residency programs last year on Match Day, which occurs annually on the third Friday in March. But the match rate for Americans who study at medical schools abroad is far lower, with just 61 percent matching into residency spots.”

That doesn’t answer the question for non-US citizens:

“More than 7,000 international medical graduates (IMGs) obtained first-year residency positions in U.S. programs of graduate medical education (GME), according to results of the 2020 Main Residency Match® announced Friday by the National Resident Matching Program® (NRMP®).


Of the 7,376 IMGs who matched, 3,154 are U.S. citizens and 4,222 are citizens of other nations. Sixty-one percent of IMG applicants were selected by U.S. GME programs in the highly competitive Match process, the highest IMG match rate in 30 years.”

https://www.ecfmg.org/news/2020/03/23/m ... -programs/

The criteria for IMGs to be qualified to match is listed in that post.

61% is better than 50/50 but my suspicion is that the majority come from first world nations.
TheNightsToCome
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by TheNightsToCome »

nigel_ht wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:12 pm
international001 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:18 pm I am not sure a 5% chance of being non-employable means a lot for the OP decission.

Either way, can you educate me? The 6% of MD no being employable is for international MD degrees only? I thought only American MD had a chance of residence, anyway. I'd think it would be great if MD all over the world would be able to get residency and a job in US, same as happen with CS and other degrees
Of the 7,376 IMGs who matched, 3,154 are U.S. citizens and 4,222 are citizens of other nations. Sixty-one percent of IMG applicants were selected by U.S. GME programs in the highly competitive Match process, the highest IMG match rate in 30 years.”

https://www.ecfmg.org/news/2020/03/23/m ... -programs/

The criteria for IMGs to be qualified to match is listed in that post.

61% is better than 50/50 but my suspicion is that the majority come from first world nations.
I don't know the stats, but I've worked with many IMGs, most from India or other Asian nations, and the rest from the Middle East, Africa, or developing Europe. I don't know if I've ever worked with an IMG from Japan or developed Europe.
nigel_ht
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by nigel_ht »

TheNightsToCome wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:25 pm
nigel_ht wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:12 pm
international001 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:18 pm I am not sure a 5% chance of being non-employable means a lot for the OP decission.

Either way, can you educate me? The 6% of MD no being employable is for international MD degrees only? I thought only American MD had a chance of residence, anyway. I'd think it would be great if MD all over the world would be able to get residency and a job in US, same as happen with CS and other degrees
Of the 7,376 IMGs who matched, 3,154 are U.S. citizens and 4,222 are citizens of other nations. Sixty-one percent of IMG applicants were selected by U.S. GME programs in the highly competitive Match process, the highest IMG match rate in 30 years.”

https://www.ecfmg.org/news/2020/03/23/m ... -programs/

The criteria for IMGs to be qualified to match is listed in that post.

61% is better than 50/50 but my suspicion is that the majority come from first world nations.
I don't know the stats, but I've worked with many IMGs, most from India or other Asian nations, and the rest from the Middle East, Africa, or developing Europe. I don't know if I've ever worked with an IMG from Japan or developed Europe.
They don’t say but it seems you are correct and I am wrong.

https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil. ... nities.pdf

Edit:

This one does say:

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article ... tates-2018
international001
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by international001 »

Thanks for all the info I was ignorant about.

If I understand right, US have 37k residency positions a year. If you have a MD degree from US university, you have a 6% chance of not getting it. If you have a degree from a foreign university, you have a 39% chance of not getting it.

Once you get your residence position, it's assumed you won't be underemployed and eventually you'll make the big $$.

My Qs:

- Is 37k residency positions enough? I compare with other countries I know (Spain offers 8k a year) and it doesn't seem enough. Would offering more positions eventually bring down doctor salaries? (so the medical establishment would oppose it)
- Why isn't more demand from foreign graduated to work in US? It would be beneficial for them money wise, same that happens in CS.
stoptothink
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by stoptothink »

international001 wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:11 pm Is 37k residency positions enough? I compare with other countries I know (Spain offers 8k a year) and it doesn't seem enough. Would offering more positions eventually bring down doctor salaries? (so the medical establishment would oppose it)
This is a hotly debated topic in the medical field and the only answer is: it's complicated. Yes, there are many influential forces purposely limiting residency spots.
BernardShakey
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by BernardShakey »

nigel_ht wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:18 am
OrangeKiwi wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:33 am
nigel_ht wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:15 am
bling wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:39 pm
Afty wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:26 pm There's just a lot more variance in software engineer outcomes than in MD outcomes. The high end is higher (e.g., start Amazon and become the richest person in the world) and the low end is lower. MD is a relatively safe but difficult route to the upper middle class.
is it really "safe"? for an MD, you either make it, or you don't, there's really no middle ground here. for CS, there are tons in possibilities from the low-end to the high-end, but you're still working in all of them.
5% of CS grads are unemployed on graduation (maybe it’s 6 mos of graduation? I forget).

But yes, failure conditions for the CS grads is much less…
CS grads, for which there is a very low barrier to entry, are not comparable to MDs, for which there is a very high barrier to entry. The 5% of CA grads that are unemployed at graduation would easily be weeded out before they even got into med school.
Computer science dropout rate is like 10%. So with the 5% of unemployed graduates about 15%.

Med school dropout rates are between 15% and 18%.

Seems about the same until you realize not every med school grad can find a residency.

This year’s Match Day, held on March 20, was the largest in history, according to the NRMP, which reported that 40,084 applicants submitted program choices (or ranking lists) for 37,256 positions.

You have a lot of students who are unmatched who have been reporting working at delis, working as baristas. They might be teaching at a community college or something like that because they have an MD, but they can’t work clinically,” De said. “Service industry jobs are really common. Bartending, waitering or waitressing. There are a lot of unmatched students driving for Uber and Lyft, I will tell you that.”


https://news.yahoo.com/the-coronavirus- ... 05748.html

Gee…seems like a similar 6% underemployment statistic where the graduate ends up working Starbucks…

Dr. Cromblin is one of as many as 10,000 chronically unmatched doctors in the United States, people who graduated from medical school but are consistently rejected from residency programs. The National Resident Matching Program promotes its high match rate, with 94 percent of American medical students matching into residency programs last year on Match Day,

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/19/heal ... ctors.html

2020 didn’t get better…94% match rate is 6% failure rate.

Seems like the high barrier to entry and “weeding out” doesn’t work out to any better outcomes than for the incomparable CS grad…
For US allopathic (MD) medical school students, dropout rates are very low and residency placement rates are like 95%+ (97-98% for some specialties). If you start including DO's and international students, Caribbean schools, it's a whole different story.
An important key to investing is having a well-calibrated sense of your future regret.
nigel_ht
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by nigel_ht »

stoptothink wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:51 pm
international001 wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:11 pm Is 37k residency positions enough? I compare with other countries I know (Spain offers 8k a year) and it doesn't seem enough. Would offering more positions eventually bring down doctor salaries? (so the medical establishment would oppose it)
This is a hotly debated topic in the medical field and the only answer is: it's complicated. Yes, there are many influential forces purposely limiting residency spots.
Something for folks to be aware of but most advisors warn about not picking an overseas medical school. So the failure rate is a somewhat reasonable number.

What doesn’t make any sense is working long shifts. Residency programs and hospitals should be sued into oblivion for all the medical mistakes made when the residents are completely sleep deprived.

Doctors should have to meet the same rest requirements as airline pilots.
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calmaniac
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Post by calmaniac »

BernardShakey wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:00 pm
For US allopathic (MD) medical school students, dropout rates are very low and residency placement rates are like 95%+ (97-98% for some specialties). If you start including DO's and international students, Caribbean schools, it's a whole different story.

Question: What do they call the medical student that graduates at the bottom of his/her class?





Answer: Doctor :D

My guess is that the 95% rates noted above for US allopathic grads don't take into account people who may not match, but scramble after the match to find a spot. Or spend a year doing research in their speciality to buff their CV and match in later years. If you are a US grad, have passed your USMLE licensing exams, and can fog a mirror, you will find a residency. Perhaps not in your desired fancy specialty if you are swinging for the fences, but such is life.

Sign me, mirror fogger
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nigel_ht
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by nigel_ht »

BernardShakey wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:00 pm
nigel_ht wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:18 am
OrangeKiwi wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:33 am
nigel_ht wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:15 am
bling wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:39 pm
is it really "safe"? for an MD, you either make it, or you don't, there's really no middle ground here. for CS, there are tons in possibilities from the low-end to the high-end, but you're still working in all of them.
5% of CS grads are unemployed on graduation (maybe it’s 6 mos of graduation? I forget).

But yes, failure conditions for the CS grads is much less…
CS grads, for which there is a very low barrier to entry, are not comparable to MDs, for which there is a very high barrier to entry. The 5% of CA grads that are unemployed at graduation would easily be weeded out before they even got into med school.
Computer science dropout rate is like 10%. So with the 5% of unemployed graduates about 15%.

Med school dropout rates are between 15% and 18%.

Seems about the same until you realize not every med school grad can find a residency.

This year’s Match Day, held on March 20, was the largest in history, according to the NRMP, which reported that 40,084 applicants submitted program choices (or ranking lists) for 37,256 positions.

You have a lot of students who are unmatched who have been reporting working at delis, working as baristas. They might be teaching at a community college or something like that because they have an MD, but they can’t work clinically,” De said. “Service industry jobs are really common. Bartending, waitering or waitressing. There are a lot of unmatched students driving for Uber and Lyft, I will tell you that.”


https://news.yahoo.com/the-coronavirus- ... 05748.html

Gee…seems like a similar 6% underemployment statistic where the graduate ends up working Starbucks…

Dr. Cromblin is one of as many as 10,000 chronically unmatched doctors in the United States, people who graduated from medical school but are consistently rejected from residency programs. The National Resident Matching Program promotes its high match rate, with 94 percent of American medical students matching into residency programs last year on Match Day,

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/19/heal ... ctors.html

2020 didn’t get better…94% match rate is 6% failure rate.

Seems like the high barrier to entry and “weeding out” doesn’t work out to any better outcomes than for the incomparable CS grad…
For US allopathic (MD) medical school students, dropout rates are very low and residency placement rates are like 95%+ (97-98% for some specialties). If you start including DO's and international students, Caribbean schools, it's a whole different story.
Dropout rates for medical schools is about 5%.

https://www.aamc.org/system/files/2019- ... 202019.pdf

Of those in 2020 only 94% matched.

So about an 89% success rate from starting a US med school to getting a residency match…after 4 years of BS and 6 years of med school. Add in another 3-7 years of residency.

You’ll lose another 0.8% to 1.2% in residency.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... po=1.31579

Compared with a 95% success rate for 4 years of computer science in attaining employment and a mid career salary of around $110K.

If you want to retire early I would recommend the CS path and grind hard for FAANG. If you start at $100K + RSUs you’ll hit FI a lot faster than almost anything besides IB…and if you think folks at FAANG work long hours IB is worse in terms of work life balance.
BernardShakey
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by BernardShakey »

nigel_ht wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:15 am
bling wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:39 pm
Afty wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:26 pm There's just a lot more variance in software engineer outcomes than in MD outcomes. The high end is higher (e.g., start Amazon and become the richest person in the world) and the low end is lower. MD is a relatively safe but difficult route to the upper middle class.
is it really "safe"? for an MD, you either make it, or you don't, there's really no middle ground here. for CS, there are tons in possibilities from the low-end to the high-end, but you're still working in all of them.
5% of CS grads are unemployed on graduation (maybe it’s 6 mos of graduation? I forget).

But yes, failure conditions for the CS grads is much less…
Yeah 5% of CS grads are unemployed but a fair chunk are likely under-employed...not working at the FAANG, making good money but not great money. And how many go into the CS major as an undergrad and don't make it. They change majors. The weed out process is similar to pre-med and Engineering. I'm not so sure that, for a kid coming out of high school, CS is a sure bet. A good bet, yes, but it's not an automatic ticket to the top of the upper middle class.

Every year (less 2021 which was a weird one), a little over 40% of medical school applicants get accepted to at least one med school. Not great, but if you can get through that bottleneck, you are set-up for a pretty nice career assuming you are up for the workload. Yes, since almost 60% don't get accepted, you have to have a back-up plan.

I think CS is a little like law, some graduates make big, big money, and others are under employed and/or jumping around doing ok but not killing it.
An important key to investing is having a well-calibrated sense of your future regret.
stoptothink
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by stoptothink »

BernardShakey wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:35 pmI think CS is a little like law, some graduates make big, big money, and others are under employed and/or jumping around doing ok but not killing it.
It's definitely not as bimodal as law (~25% of law school graduates never even practice law), but the data does make it abundantly clear that the large majority of those who graduate from CS programs will never make the kind of money that is regularly thrown around as normal.
Young Boglehead
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by Young Boglehead »

international001 wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:11 pm Thanks for all the info I was ignorant about.

If I understand right, US have 37k residency positions a year. If you have a MD degree from US university, you have a 6% chance of not getting it. If you have a degree from a foreign university, you have a 39% chance of not getting it.

Once you get your residence position, it's assumed you won't be underemployed and eventually you'll make the big $$.

My Qs:

- Is 37k residency positions enough? I compare with other countries I know (Spain offers 8k a year) and it doesn't seem enough. Would offering more positions eventually bring down doctor salaries? (so the medical establishment would oppose it)
- Why isn't more demand from foreign graduated to work in US? It would be beneficial for them money wise, same that happens in CS.
I'm not sure we can quite compare the number of practicing physicians in the US to those in another country. We are producing a LOT of NPs and PAs in this country who provide a lot of care and these types of positions simply don't exist in many other countries. So if we look at the number of "providers" i suspect its much closer. Regardless though, while a physician shortage is way too general (differs by specialty), what's undeniable is a physician maldistribution. Unfortunately, simply increasing residency spots doesn't necessarily change that because the physicians matching there will probably look like those who match now and flock to more urban and suburban places.

Depending on the specialty that you're adding spots for, salaries could easily go down. That's going to happen like it would to any field that only relies on qualifications (graduated MD/DO with residency) and where graduates are highly and specifically trained with no real feasible path to make money doing something else, often with a ton of debt to boot.

For point 2, if you're referring to the total number of people who are from outside the US, I'd guess it's because they know they're going to have an incredibly tough time matching into anything, much less something more competitive, so they might be weeded out. Residencies would much prefer a known quantity without any visa/cultural issues from a US med school that has very high standard and whose "product' (students) they may be familiar with.
audioaxes
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by audioaxes »

as a CS grad who has been in the IT field for nearly 15 years now, I think some of the top end salaries being thrown about are no where as common or easy to obtain. And if you do its likely in the Bay Area or NYC where your money takes you alot less further. Unless you going to a top flight program and/or getting a PHD I think most tend to settle in around 60-80 entry level, 80-105 experienced and topping out at around 130-150K for a lead position in SoCal.
And then you have to factor in unpaid overtime which can bring your actually per hour rate to a pretty unimpressive amount.
And finally there is the real threat of being aged out of this field and the need to stay on top of your game and relevant or move up to executive management (which clearly isnt for everyone). I doubt many places are going to let some middling developer hang around in their position until they reach retirement age when universities are constantly pumping out sharp motivated grads.
nigel_ht
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by nigel_ht »

audioaxes wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:30 am Unless you going to a top flight program and/or getting a PHD I think most tend to settle in around 60-80 entry level, 80-105 experienced and topping out at around 130-150K for a lead position in SoCal.
We're offering more but I guess we are somewhat elite.

{quote]
And then you have to factor in unpaid overtime which can bring your actually per hour rate to a pretty unimpressive amount.
And finally there is the real threat of being aged out of this field and the need to stay on top of your game and relevant or move up to executive management (which clearly isnt for everyone). I doubt many places are going to let some middling developer hang around in their position until they reach retirement age when universities are constantly pumping out sharp motivated grads.
[/quote]

Which is why you should plan to be FI by 50. Which is a lot more reachable if you start at even $70K entry level, max 401K for $39K net after taxes and save another $10K taxable and live on $2K a month (+ $5K of any one time expenses).

$2K a month is more of a college lifestyle with roommates but not a terribly austere one and kickstarts your savings toward FI pretty well.
tsohg
Posts: 130
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by tsohg »

audioaxes wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:30 am as a CS grad who has been in the IT field for nearly 15 years now, I think some of the top end salaries being thrown about are no where as common or easy to obtain. And if you do its likely in the Bay Area or NYC where your money takes you alot less further. Unless you going to a top flight program and/or getting a PHD I think most tend to settle in around 60-80 entry level, 80-105 experienced and topping out at around 130-150K for a lead position in SoCal.
And then you have to factor in unpaid overtime which can bring your actually per hour rate to a pretty unimpressive amount.
And finally there is the real threat of being aged out of this field and the need to stay on top of your game and relevant or move up to executive management (which clearly isnt for everyone). I doubt many places are going to let some middling developer hang around in their position until they reach retirement age when universities are constantly pumping out sharp motivated grads.
This has been my experience as a person with a MS in CS who works as a partner at a software firm responsible for hiring and recruiting (among many other things). 400k-500k is not the norm by any stretch, outside of a very specific niche. The ranges you quote match the market data we collect (pay for) yearly.

It goes without saying pay depends greatly on title/role, company size/field/stage of life, geography, etc.
international001
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by international001 »

tsohg wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:19 pm
audioaxes wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:30 am as a CS grad who has been in the IT field for nearly 15 years now, I think some of the top end salaries being thrown about are no where as common or easy to obtain. And if you do its likely in the Bay Area or NYC where your money takes you alot less further. Unless you going to a top flight program and/or getting a PHD I think most tend to settle in around 60-80 entry level, 80-105 experienced and topping out at around 130-150K for a lead position in SoCal.
And then you have to factor in unpaid overtime which can bring your actually per hour rate to a pretty unimpressive amount.
And finally there is the real threat of being aged out of this field and the need to stay on top of your game and relevant or move up to executive management (which clearly isnt for everyone). I doubt many places are going to let some middling developer hang around in their position until they reach retirement age when universities are constantly pumping out sharp motivated grads.
This has been my experience as a person with a MS in CS who works as a partner at a software firm responsible for hiring and recruiting (among many other things). 400k-500k is not the norm by any stretch, outside of a very specific niche. The ranges you quote match the market data we collect (pay for) yearly.

It goes without saying pay depends greatly on title/role, company size/field/stage of life, geography, etc.
IS this total compensation or just salary part?
international001
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Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:31 pm

Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by international001 »

Young Boglehead wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:06 am For point 2, if you're referring to the total number of people who are from outside the US, I'd guess it's because they know they're going to have an incredibly tough time matching into anything, much less something more competitive, so they might be weeded out. Residencies would much prefer a known quantity without any visa/cultural issues from a US med school that has very high standard and whose "product' (students) they may be familiar with.
Thanks for your insights.
Keep supply low to keep quality up seems like a gremial position to keep salaries up as well. Not saying is completely bad, but with the health care problems in US for most humble people, it would seem the public interest would be to import some doctors at the expense of perhaps brining down the quality.

It's interesting how this happens within public systems with the incentives to keep costs downs. From the Spanish case I'm more familiar one, many doctors and nurses have emigrated to Britain where they are treated better salary wise. The Spanish public sector has been flooded with doctors from Latin America, that I guess have lower salary requirements. Private doctors barely.
anoop
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by anoop »

vk22 wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:16 am Hi All,

I am advising a high school sophomore on deciding his career choice. He wants to go for either
(1) a BS/MD option, which is very competitive or,
(2) Computer science undergrad, then MD

Good student, smart with very strong work ethic, good social skills, entrepreneurial, motivated strongly by money in making choices. Indian American.

Will a medical degree in a strong specialty work to his motivation of making money? Or should he stick with CS and try to be an entrepreneur?
Best choices for making money in the current environment are central banker or politician. :twisted:
EnjoyIt
Posts: 6108
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:06 pm

Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by EnjoyIt »

tsohg wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:19 pm
audioaxes wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:30 am as a CS grad who has been in the IT field for nearly 15 years now, I think some of the top end salaries being thrown about are no where as common or easy to obtain. And if you do its likely in the Bay Area or NYC where your money takes you alot less further. Unless you going to a top flight program and/or getting a PHD I think most tend to settle in around 60-80 entry level, 80-105 experienced and topping out at around 130-150K for a lead position in SoCal.
And then you have to factor in unpaid overtime which can bring your actually per hour rate to a pretty unimpressive amount.
And finally there is the real threat of being aged out of this field and the need to stay on top of your game and relevant or move up to executive management (which clearly isnt for everyone). I doubt many places are going to let some middling developer hang around in their position until they reach retirement age when universities are constantly pumping out sharp motivated grads.
This has been my experience as a person with a MS in CS who works as a partner at a software firm responsible for hiring and recruiting (among many other things). 400k-500k is not the norm by any stretch, outside of a very specific niche. The ranges you quote match the market data we collect (pay for) yearly.

It goes without saying pay depends greatly on title/role, company size/field/stage of life, geography, etc.
Just a thought, but the way I see it, we are not comparing fairly. I figure, if one has the grit and intelligence to make it into and through medical school, then that person very likely has the same characteristic to make them a top performer in CS. Doesn't that change the reimbursement significantly?

When I was in college, I also had to make a choice between CS and medicine. I enjoyed programing and thought it could be a career choice. I dabbled with code at home before even going to college. I ended up choosing medicine but did not make my decision until the end of my sophomore year which gave me two years worth of CS and premed classes under my belt. Back then I found the CS classes to be pretty easy to get good grades in which makes me think I may have been successful going that route if I so desired. I bet a large percentage of physicians may have had similar success if they chose CS instead. I may be wrong of course.
A time to EVALUATE your jitters: | viewtopic.php?p=1139732#p1139732
international001
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by international001 »

EnjoyIt wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:10 pm Just a thought, but the way I see it, we are not comparing fairly. I figure, if one has the grit and intelligence to make it into and through medical school, then that person very likely has the same characteristic to make them a top performer in CS. Doesn't that change the reimbursement significantly?

When I was in college, I also had to make a choice between CS and medicine. I enjoyed programing and thought it could be a career choice. I dabbled with code at home before even going to college. I ended up choosing medicine but did not make my decision until the end of my sophomore year which gave me two years worth of CS and premed classes under my belt. Back then I found the CS classes to be pretty easy to get good grades in which makes me think I may have been successful going that route if I so desired. I bet a large percentage of physicians may have had similar success if they chose CS instead. I may be wrong of course.
You claim that anybody to make it through medical school would be successful in CS is a very generic and difficult statement to disproof.
I guess you mean it as a question of talent/intelligence/hard work. Probably the average MD has passed over more selective tests. But CS umbrella has a very broad of skillsets (I google 2M CS vs 500k doctors). If you think a few CS coding classes is representative, there is a big step towards designing a microkernel or a full network stack.
I don't think there is a chance that the average doctor could make the same money they are making on a FAANG. There are always exceptions and once I knew a doctor that quit their practice to go into IT during the .com years for the money. I wouldn't have trust him with a punched card.
EnjoyIt
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by EnjoyIt »

international001 wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:05 pm
EnjoyIt wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:10 pm Just a thought, but the way I see it, we are not comparing fairly. I figure, if one has the grit and intelligence to make it into and through medical school, then that person very likely has the same characteristic to make them a top performer in CS. Doesn't that change the reimbursement significantly?

When I was in college, I also had to make a choice between CS and medicine. I enjoyed programing and thought it could be a career choice. I dabbled with code at home before even going to college. I ended up choosing medicine but did not make my decision until the end of my sophomore year which gave me two years worth of CS and premed classes under my belt. Back then I found the CS classes to be pretty easy to get good grades in which makes me think I may have been successful going that route if I so desired. I bet a large percentage of physicians may have had similar success if they chose CS instead. I may be wrong of course.
You claim that anybody to make it through medical school would be successful in CS is a very generic and difficult statement to disproof.
I guess you mean it as a question of talent/intelligence/hard work. Probably the average MD has passed over more selective tests. But CS umbrella has a very broad of skillsets (I google 2M CS vs 500k doctors). If you think a few CS coding classes is representative, there is a big step towards designing a microkernel or a full network stack.
I don't think there is a chance that the average doctor could make the same money they are making on a FAANG. There are always exceptions and once I knew a doctor that quit their practice to go into IT during the .com years for the money. I wouldn't have trust him with a punched card.
No, not anybody or everybody, but I feel that some of the criteria that can make a person successful and become a physician can equally make them successful in CS.
A time to EVALUATE your jitters: | viewtopic.php?p=1139732#p1139732
tsohg
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Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by tsohg »

EnjoyIt wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:07 pm
international001 wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:05 pm
EnjoyIt wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:10 pm Just a thought, but the way I see it, we are not comparing fairly. I figure, if one has the grit and intelligence to make it into and through medical school, then that person very likely has the same characteristic to make them a top performer in CS. Doesn't that change the reimbursement significantly?

When I was in college, I also had to make a choice between CS and medicine. I enjoyed programing and thought it could be a career choice. I dabbled with code at home before even going to college. I ended up choosing medicine but did not make my decision until the end of my sophomore year which gave me two years worth of CS and premed classes under my belt. Back then I found the CS classes to be pretty easy to get good grades in which makes me think I may have been successful going that route if I so desired. I bet a large percentage of physicians may have had similar success if they chose CS instead. I may be wrong of course.
You claim that anybody to make it through medical school would be successful in CS is a very generic and difficult statement to disproof.
I guess you mean it as a question of talent/intelligence/hard work. Probably the average MD has passed over more selective tests. But CS umbrella has a very broad of skillsets (I google 2M CS vs 500k doctors). If you think a few CS coding classes is representative, there is a big step towards designing a microkernel or a full network stack.
I don't think there is a chance that the average doctor could make the same money they are making on a FAANG. There are always exceptions and once I knew a doctor that quit their practice to go into IT during the .com years for the money. I wouldn't have trust him with a punched card.
No, not anybody or everybody, but I feel that some of the criteria that can make a person successful and become a physician can equally make them successful in CS.
The value of raw talent, emotional intelligence, and grit can't be overstated. If the person is remarkable, I would bet on them to succeed to a high degree in fields that are well-rewarded in the market place.

My post was made to give my perspective from experience and push back on the notion I see tossed around on this forum (which is very much self-selecting): that jobs paying mid-6 figures are commonplace in tech for someone doing programming work with a background in CS. Those jobs represent the pinnacle of W2 employment for certain Sr technical roles or niche jobs in the field.

If I had a son or daughter entering college I would share the median salary data in a certain geography as an anchor point, with the pinnacle being aspirational and certainly not assured.
international001
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Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:31 pm

Re: To be or not to be - MD vs Computer science

Post by international001 »

tsohg wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:19 pm
EnjoyIt wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:07 pm
international001 wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:05 pm
EnjoyIt wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:10 pm Just a thought, but the way I see it, we are not comparing fairly. I figure, if one has the grit and intelligence to make it into and through medical school, then that person very likely has the same characteristic to make them a top performer in CS. Doesn't that change the reimbursement significantly?

When I was in college, I also had to make a choice between CS and medicine. I enjoyed programing and thought it could be a career choice. I dabbled with code at home before even going to college. I ended up choosing medicine but did not make my decision until the end of my sophomore year which gave me two years worth of CS and premed classes under my belt. Back then I found the CS classes to be pretty easy to get good grades in which makes me think I may have been successful going that route if I so desired. I bet a large percentage of physicians may have had similar success if they chose CS instead. I may be wrong of course.
You claim that anybody to make it through medical school would be successful in CS is a very generic and difficult statement to disproof.
I guess you mean it as a question of talent/intelligence/hard work. Probably the average MD has passed over more selective tests. But CS umbrella has a very broad of skillsets (I google 2M CS vs 500k doctors). If you think a few CS coding classes is representative, there is a big step towards designing a microkernel or a full network stack.
I don't think there is a chance that the average doctor could make the same money they are making on a FAANG. There are always exceptions and once I knew a doctor that quit their practice to go into IT during the .com years for the money. I wouldn't have trust him with a punched card.
No, not anybody or everybody, but I feel that some of the criteria that can make a person successful and become a physician can equally make them successful in CS.
The value of raw talent, emotional intelligence, and grit can't be overstated. If the person is remarkable, I would bet on them to succeed to a high degree in fields that are well-rewarded in the market place.

My post was made to give my perspective from experience and push back on the notion I see tossed around on this forum (which is very much self-selecting): that jobs paying mid-6 figures are commonplace in tech for someone doing programming work with a background in CS. Those jobs represent the pinnacle of W2 employment for certain Sr technical roles or niche jobs in the field.

If I had a son or daughter entering college I would share the median salary data in a certain geography as an anchor point, with the pinnacle being aspirational and certainly not assured.
I agree with that. It's very difficult to know how your career will take you. General human value is important, but don't forget luck. Choosing a job is like choosing a stock. You don't know if your skills will still be valuable in 20 years. And you cannot diversify it away.
If you had to pick being the average MD or the average CS, just in terms of money the first one would pay more. But there are many more factors to consider. My personal take is that $ is not that important but the job-life-style is, but others may differ.
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