Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

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burritoLover
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by burritoLover »

AllMostThere wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:29 pm
PatrickA5 wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:09 pm In July, I bought a Genesis G80 for $3K under MSRP (OTD). Two months later we're looking at a Hyundai Palisade and they wanted $15K over sticker. Yep, a $49K car for $64K. I almost choked. Sent the GM (that was so nice on the first transaction) a nasty email. I have no doubts they got the $64K for the car - probably the same day, but they've lost a customer for life with that offer.
You need to be posting this experience on other social media to get the word out on this bad practice from this dealership. They need to lose more than you as a lifetime customer. This is NOT a supply and demand issue, it's Predatory Pricing in an extreme environment! How is this any different that someone selling $500 generators after a Hurricane for $2K? I'm really quite shocked that the OEM's are not stamping this "Market Adjustment" pricing down as it's bad optics for them with the end consumer. :annoyed
Yeah, upper-middle-class suburbanites can't tool around in their baller SUV - that is exactly the equivalent to the aftermath of a hurricane where people might die of heat stroke without a generator. It is a supply and demand issue - the Telluride/Palisade are in extremely high demand and supply is low - it doesn't get any more straightforward than that. If a $15k mark-up was ridiculous cause you can go to the next dealer and get it at MSRP, then it simply wouldn't sell at that mark-up.
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Boston Girl
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by Boston Girl »

We recently looked at two cars: Genesis and Lexus. The Genesis dealership was typical nightmare of a dealership: ridiculous add-ons ($2k for nitrogen in tires!), low trade in value ($4k less than bluebook), and totally sleazy. We did put money down after serious negotiations.

We then went shopping for Lexus RX350. At least one dealer *no haggle* increased the MSRP by using the term "base price." I was amazed that Lexus has gone to fake leather and trying to get a car from them with real leather was the hold up. After being told, they found "our car", we gave them a deposit. Then the car was sold. To my amazement, the dealership honored the expired rebate on the next car. We got an amazing price on the trade in and got 5% below MSRP (the real MSRP). Fyi: I called every Lexus dealership within 3 hours of my location.

When I went back to Genesis for my refund, it was like pulling teeth. It took 35 days to receive my refund. We loved the look and feel of their gas guzzlers but we went with known quality.
pizzy
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by pizzy »

Boston Girl wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:56 am We recently looked at two cars: Genesis and Lexus. The Genesis dealership was typical nightmare of a dealership: ridiculous add-ons ($2k for nitrogen in tires!), low trade in value ($4k less than bluebook), and totally sleazy. We did put money down after serious negotiations.

We then went shopping for Lexus RX350. At least one dealer *no haggle* increased the MSRP by using the term "base price." I was amazed that Lexus has gone to fake leather and trying to get a car from them with real leather was the hold up. After being told, they found "our car", we gave them a deposit. Then the car was sold. To my amazement, the dealership honored the expired rebate on the next car. We got an amazing price on the trade in and got 5% below MSRP (the real MSRP). Fyi: I called every Lexus dealership within 3 hours of my location.

When I went back to Genesis for my refund, it was like pulling teeth. It took 35 days to receive my refund. We loved the look and feel of their gas guzzlers but we went with known quality.
Is Genesis still a Hyundai with makeup or are they their own distinct brand now?
Bud
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by Bud »

If you can drive a manual transmission, you can still find deals - you might have to be flexible rather than locking into a specific model with specific add-ons.

All the best.
acegolfer
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by acegolfer »

depends on time/model/dealership.

I have seen same dealer offering discount one month but charging markup the next month on the same car.
I have seen same dealer offering discount on one model but not on other models.
I have seen one dealer offering discount where the other 10+ competing dealers all mark up.

It's certainly harder to negotiate these days. But doesn't mean impossible. You just need to find 1 dealer who is willing to work with you at the right time.
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JoeRetire
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by JoeRetire »

bi0hazard wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:05 pm IMO: The reality is from now on car prices will around the MSRP. They will not go lower again. Why? Because car manufactures are flourishing , and the epidemic/"chip shortage" is a paradigm changing godsend for them. They will not start spewing out cars to the dealers even when they can. Dealers will become more of a "showroom experience", rather then "pick what you like from the lot experience".
Seems unlikely to me.

Once the chip shortage is over, it will only take one manufacturer to decide that having an inventory on their lot will attract more business. IMHO, the others will get left behind.

Would you rather buy a Honda off the lot? Or wait 3 months for a Toyota, Subaru, Mazda, etc?
Just remember: it's not a lie if you believe it.
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8foot7
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by 8foot7 »

JoeRetire wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:28 am
bi0hazard wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:05 pm IMO: The reality is from now on car prices will around the MSRP. They will not go lower again. Why? Because car manufactures are flourishing , and the epidemic/"chip shortage" is a paradigm changing godsend for them. They will not start spewing out cars to the dealers even when they can. Dealers will become more of a "showroom experience", rather then "pick what you like from the lot experience".
Seems unlikely to me.

Once the chip shortage is over, it will only take one manufacturer to decide that having an inventory on their lot will attract more business. IMHO, the others will get left behind.

Would you rather buy a Honda off the lot? Or wait 3 months for a Toyota, Subaru, Mazda, etc?
Also a great point. I look around my area and there are sixteen Chevy dealerships, fewer but multiple Honda dealerships, four Toyota dealerships in a 20 mile radius, one with a 5-level garage that used to be full of new vehicles... that's a massive amount of overhead to carry if you're essentially order taking from a catalog. And if no stock is necessary and everyone's paying sticker, why does any area need more than one dealership per make?

That would be a massive amount of disruption to endure when the path of least resistance is a single one automaker out of what, a dozen? more? deciding to capitalize on an opportunity by flooding the market with supply. You see the same thing with airlines--they all push capacity discipline, capacity discipline, remove seats from the market to drive up prices--and then in comes Spirit or Frontier with more capacity, more supply, and everyone else rushes to match the price.
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JoeRetire
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by JoeRetire »

8foot7 wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:44 am
JoeRetire wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:28 am
bi0hazard wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:05 pm IMO: The reality is from now on car prices will around the MSRP. They will not go lower again. Why? Because car manufactures are flourishing , and the epidemic/"chip shortage" is a paradigm changing godsend for them. They will not start spewing out cars to the dealers even when they can. Dealers will become more of a "showroom experience", rather then "pick what you like from the lot experience".
Seems unlikely to me.

Once the chip shortage is over, it will only take one manufacturer to decide that having an inventory on their lot will attract more business. IMHO, the others will get left behind.

Would you rather buy a Honda off the lot? Or wait 3 months for a Toyota, Subaru, Mazda, etc?
Also a great point. I look around my area and there are sixteen Chevy dealerships, fewer but multiple Honda dealerships, four Toyota dealerships in a 20 mile radius, one with a 5-level garage that used to be full of new vehicles... that's a massive amount of overhead to carry if you're essentially order taking from a catalog. And if no stock is necessary and everyone's paying sticker, why does any area need more than one dealership per make?

That would be a massive amount of disruption to endure when the path of least resistance is a single one automaker out of what, a dozen? more? deciding to capitalize on an opportunity by flooding the market with supply. You see the same thing with airlines--they all push capacity discipline, capacity discipline, remove seats from the market to drive up prices--and then in comes Spirit or Frontier with more capacity, more supply, and everyone else rushes to match the price.
Market forces always exist and always will.

Once the chip shortage is over, the market will decide if "give me money and your car will be here in 3 months" can work for most dealerships or not.

I'm betting on the "not" for most.
Just remember: it's not a lie if you believe it.
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by Sandtrap »

acegolfer wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:25 am depends on time/model/dealership.

I have seen same dealer offering discount one month but charging markup the next month on the same car.
I have seen same dealer offering discount on one model but not on other models.
I have seen one dealer offering discount where the other 10+ competing dealers all mark up.

It's certainly harder to negotiate these days. But doesn't mean impossible. You just need to find 1 dealer who is willing to work with you at the right time.
+1
Good points
Well said.

The cars and deals exist but take a lot more work and patience to find and get them.
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MikeG62
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by MikeG62 »

gogreen wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:54 am
MikeG62 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:36 pm Yes I have. Placed an order for a ‘22 BMW X5 for my DW. Was the most difficult negotiation I’ve done on a car purchase/lease.
How did you do it? Just configured via website and placed an online order?
ATM there are 0 models my DW is looking for available in 100 miles radius. I just wonder if ordering online will help at all :confused
No online ordering. I typically try and do all my negotiating remotely (so by email or text), but i do not push the order button online. There are too many other variables at play (dealer discount, number of security deposits, capital cost reduction (which I don't do), etc...). You really are going to need to connect with a human to work through an order in this market. They just don't have the availability to allow online ordering - lucky if they can order one X5 per month.

We custom ordered the vehicle. There were zero models which met the spec we wanted - honestly good luck finding any X5's sitting on a dealer lot. They are sold before they even arrive. Likely what you see online is vehicles they "had" at one time, but which are gone now.
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gogreen
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by gogreen »

MikeG62 wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:07 am
gogreen wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:54 am
MikeG62 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:36 pm Yes I have. Placed an order for a ‘22 BMW X5 for my DW. Was the most difficult negotiation I’ve done on a car purchase/lease.
How did you do it? Just configured via website and placed an online order?
ATM there are 0 models my DW is looking for available in 100 miles radius. I just wonder if ordering online will help at all :confused
No online ordering. I typically try and do all my negotiating remotely (so by email or text), but i do not push the order button online. There are too many other variables at play (dealer discount, number of security deposits, capital cost reduction (which I don't do), etc...). You really are going to need to connect with a human to work through an order in this market. They just don't have the availability to allow online ordering - lucky if they can order one X5 per month.

We custom ordered the vehicle. There were zero models which met the spec we wanted - honestly good luck finding any X5's sitting on a dealer lot. They are sold before they even arrive. Likely what you see online is vehicles they "had" at one time, but which are gone now.
Crap :annoyed
Thank you :sharebeer
mtmingus
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by mtmingus »

PaunchyPirate wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:24 am I just purchased a Toyota Highlander. There was no inventory, but I was able to get one that was just about to be built in Indiana. I got it 8 weeks later. I had to pay full MSRP. No deal at all to be had. It was basically "Do you want it or not?"
Consider yourself lucky only paying MSRP for a Toyota. My local dealers (checked two of them) have put “premiums” on all 4Runners, Highlanders.
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Watty
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by Watty »

Back when I was a kid I can remember that in the 1960s my parents would order a car with the exact colors and options that they wanted then it would be built for them just the way that they wanted. I don't recall how long this took but my impression was that they might get the car in less then two months and that was common back then.

Even if some brands will still let you custom order a car now that seems to be real uncommon now.

If going to ordering cars for later delivery becomes common again then maybe it will be easier to custom order cars like that again.

I purchased a car last spring and it was frustrating that I had to buy a higher trim level to get some of the features I wanted but the higher trim level also had many features that I did not want. For example I rally do not like sunroofs since I have heard of so many cars having problems with them leaking but all the trim levels above the base trim had them. There is at least one other feature that I would have been glad to have paid for but to get it but it was only available in the highest trim level and buying that was not worth the cost to me just to get that feature.

I also find that the colors that are available are all really bland which I can sort of understand when all the cars are ordered for a dealers lot, but if I was custom ordering a car it would be nice be be able to order a purple car or whatever color turned my crank.
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by wildkarrde21 »

Back in Oct 2019, we thought we were getting hosed in having to special order a Kia Telluride SXL Prestige for MSRP. Came in February 2020 and the dealership told us we were "lucky" to get it at a little below MSRP ($800 off). Thought he was full of it (especially after he lowballed us on our trade in at the time), but turns out he was right. We've gotten unsolicited offers for it for several thousand over what we paid for it!

On a related note, one dealer was telling us that he was having to buy Mustang Mach Es for $5-10k over MSRP from other dealers just to get in on the EV game. (The Mach E is weird in that the MSRP and invoice are the same - Ford just pays dealers a flat fee for selling them). He still expects to at least break even on them because that's where the market is right now.
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8foot7
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by 8foot7 »

Trying to pay over original sticker for a used Kia = :oops:
PatrickA5
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by PatrickA5 »

8foot7 wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:52 am Trying to pay over original sticker for a used Kia = :oops:
Ha! That's nothin'. My Hyundai dealership has a used 2020 Palisade with 30K miles for $5K OVER the MSRP of a new 2022 with the exact trim. Of course, they're wanting a lot more than that over sticker for the new one. Crazy.

As I said in an earlier post, the dealerships that are going overboard with the market adjustments will likely lose customers forever. Probably won't lose enough customers to make a difference, though. The dealership that pretty much insulted me ($15K over MSRP for a Palisade) not only lost my future car buying business, but lost my service business going forward on my Genesis.

Currently looking at the new Infiniti QX60. I can order one at MSRP, but they aren't sure when they might show up. Right now, there aren't even any to test drive. Hopefully, later this month.

Bad time to be buying another car. On the plus side, my 2018 Honda Pilot is worth almost what I paid for it in trade in.
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by BruDude »

Depends on the car and whether you are ordering or buying off the lot. I’ve been looking at the 392 Wrangler and most dealers wants $10k over MSRP for the ones on the lot. There are several dealers on the Jeep forums offering ordered cars at $6k off sticker. You just need to know where to look, but some cars just aren’t going to have any discounts right now.
delamer
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by delamer »

Is there any reason that the chip shortage would have a different impact on the availability of EVs vs. ICE vehicles?
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talzara
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by talzara »

Murr wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:01 am We walked a few lots yesterday as we are in the market for a new vehicle due to a new job and loss of fleet car. I was shocked to see that on a Honda dealers lot literally every new car had a $4995 "market adjustment" added regardless of the car. That means civics were about 25% over msrp, nuts.
PatrickA5 wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:09 pm In July, I bought a Genesis G80 for $3K under MSRP (OTD). Two months later we're looking at a Hyundai Palisade and they wanted $15K over sticker. Yep, a $49K car for $64K. I almost choked. Sent the GM (that was so nice on the first transaction) a nasty email. I have no doubts they got the $64K for the car - probably the same day, but they've lost a customer for life with that offer.
Markups of 25% and 31% are within the historical norms for times of constrained car supply.

Honda dealers were also putting 31% markups on the Honda Accord in the 1980s, after the US government forced the Japanese automakers to accept "voluntary" export restraints. It didn't cost Honda many "customers for life." It priced some people out of the car, but they switched to Honda when the prices came back down. Some people were happy to pay the 31% markup. After all, did you really want to drive a Plymouth Reliant when you could be driving a Honda Accord?

This article is from 2011, but it would still make sense if you just changed the year:
It’s a well-known fact that very few dealers make money overall on new-car sales, but with capacity constraints staring them in the face, look for the “Additional Dealer Profit” stickers to come back with a vengeance. The last time we had this kind of supply-and-demand situation was in the days of the Voluntary Restraint Agreement thirty years ago. Back then, it wasn’t uncommon to see an $8000 Accord with $2500 of ADP on the window.

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/ ... f-it-soon/
talzara
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by talzara »

Boston Girl wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:56 am We then went shopping for Lexus RX350. At least one dealer *no haggle* increased the MSRP by using the term "base price." I was amazed that Lexus has gone to fake leather and trying to get a car from them with real leather was the hold up. After being told, they found "our car", we gave them a deposit. Then the car was sold. To my amazement, the dealership honored the expired rebate on the next car. We got an amazing price on the trade in and got 5% below MSRP (the real MSRP). Fyi: I called every Lexus dealership within 3 hours of my location.
Maybe you could help out another Boglehead who can't find a Lexus RX350 for anywhere near MSRP: viewtopic.php?p=6266234

It could be worth it to ship the car across the country if there's enough of a difference in price.

A lot of automakers are switching to synthetic leather for improved sustainability and animal welfare. Volvo just announced last month that it will be phasing out natural leather by 2030. The move to leather-free cars will happen faster than the move to electric cars.
adestefan
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by adestefan »

The Telluride and Palisade aren’t even that great of vehicles. You get one good reviews and the Kia and Hyundai dealers decided they could jack up prices and then ride a wave. It’s pretty gross.
talzara
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by talzara »

delamer wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:45 pm Is there any reason that the chip shortage would have a different impact on the availability of EVs vs. ICE vehicles?
EVs use a lot more chips than ICE cars, as much as 10 times as many. However, a lot of these chips are newer and more profitable, so they have higher priority at the foundries.

The European automakers are prioritizing EVs and plug-in hybrids to reduce their fleetwide CO₂ averages. However, there's much less of a push to EVs in the United States. The EPA will only require a fleetwide average of 163 grams per mile in 2025, which is still higher than the 2021 European limit of 95 g/km (153 grams per mile).
For example, a Ford Focus typically uses roughly 300 chips, whereas one of Ford's new electric vehicles can have up to 3,000 chips.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/06/vw-ford ... -time.html
With only so many semiconductors to work with, Stellantis NV is putting electric cars before combustion-engine vehicles as consumers respond to sweeteners including significant subsidies.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... p-shortage
The global chip shortage could be accelerating the shift to electric vehicles, a leading European auto analyst says, as carmakers increase EV production to account for a change in product mix. ... This is causing carmakers to offset the increased emissions from luxury vehicles with more plug-in electric vehicles ... Year-to-date figures show that almost two in five cars sold are plug-in electric, with an almost equal split between battery-electric and plug-in hybrids.

https://thedriven.io/2021/10/07/global- ... -vehicles/
bi0hazard
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by bi0hazard »

JoeRetire wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:26 am
8foot7 wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:44 am
JoeRetire wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:28 am
bi0hazard wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:05 pm IMO: The reality is from now on car prices will around the MSRP. They will not go lower again. Why? Because car manufactures are flourishing , and the epidemic/"chip shortage" is a paradigm changing godsend for them. They will not start spewing out cars to the dealers even when they can. Dealers will become more of a "showroom experience", rather then "pick what you like from the lot experience".
Seems unlikely to me.

Once the chip shortage is over, it will only take one manufacturer to decide that having an inventory on their lot will attract more business. IMHO, the others will get left behind.

Would you rather buy a Honda off the lot? Or wait 3 months for a Toyota, Subaru, Mazda, etc?
Also a great point. I look around my area and there are sixteen Chevy dealerships, fewer but multiple Honda dealerships, four Toyota dealerships in a 20 mile radius, one with a 5-level garage that used to be full of new vehicles... that's a massive amount of overhead to carry if you're essentially order taking from a catalog. And if no stock is necessary and everyone's paying sticker, why does any area need more than one dealership per make?

That would be a massive amount of disruption to endure when the path of least resistance is a single one automaker out of what, a dozen? more? deciding to capitalize on an opportunity by flooding the market with supply. You see the same thing with airlines--they all push capacity discipline, capacity discipline, remove seats from the market to drive up prices--and then in comes Spirit or Frontier with more capacity, more supply, and everyone else rushes to match the price.
Market forces always exist and always will.

Once the chip shortage is over, the market will decide if "give me money and your car will be here in 3 months" can work for most dealerships or not.

I'm betting on the "not" for most.

I hope y'all are right. But again, it doesn't really matter if dealers/consumers like this paradigm. If manufacturers like it because they're more profitable, that's how it will stay. Unless competing manufacturer cracks and starts flooding the market...we shall see.
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burritoLover
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by burritoLover »

adestefan wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:06 pm The Telluride and Palisade aren’t even that great of vehicles. You get one good reviews and the Kia and Hyundai dealers decided they could jack up prices and then ride a wave. It’s pretty gross.
Umm, no - they are widely reviewed as the top of their class.
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tibbitts
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by tibbitts »

burritoLover wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:52 pm
adestefan wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:06 pm The Telluride and Palisade aren’t even that great of vehicles. You get one good reviews and the Kia and Hyundai dealers decided they could jack up prices and then ride a wave. It’s pretty gross.
Umm, no - they are widely reviewed as the top of their class.
I'm not familiar with them except by name. Since we have two opinions (at least), what vehicles do they compete with in the same size/price class, and which ones of those are better if any? Which other vehicles in the same category have suffered less from the pandemic-related inflation?
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by whodidntante »

I used Ford shareholder pricing to purchase my Mustang because local dealers would not give much on the price for a custom order otherwise. The program is still active. Just do 10 hail Bogles and slaughter a chicken under a full moon and we'll forgive you for owning a single stock.
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AllMostThere
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by AllMostThere »

whodidntante wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:43 pm I used Ford shareholder pricing to purchase my Mustang because local dealers would not give much on the price for a custom order otherwise. The program is still active. Just do 10 hail Bogles and slaughter a chicken under a full moon and we'll forgive you for owning a single stock.
You will be forgiven. :twisted: I did not know this Ford pricing plan existed. This sounds interesting particularly in that I have a reservation in for a Lightning, which is probably at least 2 years out..... What type of price savings (or maybe market price avoidance) did you actually obtain compared to MSRP? Thanks. :sharebeer
Last edited by AllMostThere on Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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burritoLover
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by burritoLover »

tibbitts wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:17 pm
burritoLover wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:52 pm
adestefan wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:06 pm The Telluride and Palisade aren’t even that great of vehicles. You get one good reviews and the Kia and Hyundai dealers decided they could jack up prices and then ride a wave. It’s pretty gross.
Umm, no - they are widely reviewed as the top of their class.
I'm not familiar with them except by name. Since we have two opinions (at least), what vehicles do they compete with in the same size/price class, and which ones of those are better if any? Which other vehicles in the same category have suffered less from the pandemic-related inflation?
They would compete with the likes of the Honda Pilot, Toyota Highlander, Subaru Ascent, Ford Explorer, etc. The Kia Telluride would be my top pick in this class but, that said, no way I would pay over MSRP for it and $8k-$10k over is just insane. What's more insane though is people paying near new MSRP (or over) for a variety of used cars across different brands that are 1-2 years old.
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sandan
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by sandan »

Watty wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:40 am Back when I was a kid I can remember that in the 1960s my parents would order a car with the exact colors and options that they wanted then it would be built for them just the way that they wanted. I don't recall how long this took but my impression was that they might get the car in less then two months and that was common back then.

Even if some brands will still let you custom order a car now that seems to be real uncommon now.
I think American dealerships have fought against the made to order concept. They may be reconsidering the concept because of Tesla, higher land prices, and internet shoppers. Having cars sitting on the lots eats away at the margins (which is no secret but a puzzle in American retail that is being fixed).

I'm not sure if it is still true but when I toured the BMW Munich factory 20 years ago, they made it seem like all the cars coming off their lines are made to order.
coldaudio
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by coldaudio »

There are dealers throughout the US that are still discount heavily on factory orders. I had a Mustang on order at 2% below invoice, but we're having trouble with one of our vehicles, so will be replacing it with a new Ram truck instead. Ordered at 4% below invoice, or approx 11-12% below MSRP.
RJC
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by RJC »

sandan wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:07 am
Watty wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:40 am Back when I was a kid I can remember that in the 1960s my parents would order a car with the exact colors and options that they wanted then it would be built for them just the way that they wanted. I don't recall how long this took but my impression was that they might get the car in less then two months and that was common back then.

Even if some brands will still let you custom order a car now that seems to be real uncommon now.
I think American dealerships have fought against the made to order concept. They may be reconsidering the concept because of Tesla, higher land prices, and internet shoppers. Having cars sitting on the lots eats away at the margins (which is no secret but a puzzle in American retail that is being fixed).

I'm not sure if it is still true but when I toured the BMW Munich factory 20 years ago, they made it seem like all the cars coming off their lines are made to order.
I have always ordered my cars beforehand. It usually takes a few weeks more but there was never an urgent need to buy a car right off the lot.
H-Town
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by H-Town »

I'm curious what is the urgency of buying a car with thousands of dollars dealership fees tack on the MSRP?

Bogleheads are known to not going with the crowd.

Why don't we just chill and wait for the buy opportunities?
Time is the ultimate currency. My ultimate wealth is the full control of how I spend my time.
tibbitts
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by tibbitts »

H-Town wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:22 am I'm curious what is the urgency of buying a car with thousands of dollars dealership fees tack on the MSRP?

Bogleheads are known to not going with the crowd.

Why don't we just chill and wait for the buy opportunities?
There are all kinds of reasons you might need to buy a car immediately: accident, or expensive major repair on an older car that clearly is worth less than the cost of repair. Of course yes I know true Bogleheads could fix any problem themselves with some glue and duct tape for less than $2, but realistically that's one of the dangers of the Boglehead "run it 'til it dies" approach: eventually it dies.

I was shopping for a replacement for my then-15-year-old car in mid-2020, and almost bought one, but nobody was waving flags at the time saying that the same car would cost 30+% more now (it was a used car, and yes the same car would cost that much.) Of course now everybody will say how it was obvious that was going to happen, but realistically it seemed misguided to buy a new car in midst of a pandemic when it might be years or even decades before I could make much use of it except for short local trips. Anyway my car broke down on the road two weeks ago; luckily it was something I could d-i-y, but a mechanic would have charged maybe $500-ish for that repair. It could just as easily have been a $2k+ repair.

Also, it's not clear that now isn't the "buy opportunity" vs. any time in the future.
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by surfstar »

H-Town wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:22 am I'm curious what is the urgency of buying a car with thousands of dollars dealership fees tack on the MSRP?

Bogleheads are known to not going with the crowd.

Why don't we just chill and wait for the buy opportunities?
Momentum play.



:oops:
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Go Blue 99
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by Go Blue 99 »

My in-laws bought a fully loaded Audi Q5 last week, and weren't able to negotiate anything off sticker. The salesman was able to get an Audi hat included in the deal though :happy
wolf359
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by wolf359 »

H-Town wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:22 am I'm curious what is the urgency of buying a car with thousands of dollars dealership fees tack on the MSRP?

Bogleheads are known to not going with the crowd.

Why don't we just chill and wait for the buy opportunities?
The latest guess is that the supply disruptions may continue through 2023. (Source: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/chip-short ... ough-2023/)

If you need a car in the meantime, you might need to deal with the current market.

It might be a long wait.

We were in our local dealership for service. They said they normally have 350 cars in their inventory. They are down to 30. About half the cars they get shipped are pre-sold. Unsold cars are typically on their lot for 3-5 days. They had only one vehicle in the showroom (because they cycle through so quickly that it doesn't make sense to put them there if they can sell it.)
Mike Scott
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by Mike Scott »

from https://shareholder.ford.com/investors/ ... fault.aspx
Ford Motor Company offers the “Friends and Neighbors” pricing discount to our qualifying shareholders. To be eligible, you must show you are a current Ford Motor Company shareholder who has held a minimum of one hundred (100) shares of Ford Motor Company stock for at least the past 6 months. We call this discount the Shareholder X-Plan Program.

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Contact AXZ Headquarters
Telephone: 1-800-348-7709
Email: axzfaxes@ford.com
stoptothink
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by stoptothink »

tibbitts wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:37 am
H-Town wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:22 am I'm curious what is the urgency of buying a car with thousands of dollars dealership fees tack on the MSRP?

Bogleheads are known to not going with the crowd.

Why don't we just chill and wait for the buy opportunities?
There are all kinds of reasons you might need to buy a car immediately: accident, or expensive major repair on an older car that clearly is worth less than the cost of repair. Of course yes I know true Bogleheads could fix any problem themselves with some glue and duct tape for less than $2, but realistically that's one of the dangers of the Boglehead "run it 'til it dies" approach: eventually it dies.

I was shopping for a replacement for my then-15-year-old car in mid-2020, and almost bought one, but nobody was waving flags at the time saying that the same car would cost 30+% more now (it was a used car, and yes the same car would cost that much.) Of course now everybody will say how it was obvious that was going to happen, but realistically it seemed misguided to buy a new car in midst of a pandemic when it might be years or even decades before I could make much use of it except for short local trips. Anyway my car broke down on the road two weeks ago; luckily it was something I could d-i-y, but a mechanic would have charged maybe $500-ish for that repair. It could just as easily have been a $2k+ repair.

Also, it's not clear that now isn't the "buy opportunity" vs. any time in the future.
We ordered a Ford Maverick in July knowing that we may not get it for up to a year (or possibly even longer). We don't need a car right now, but we would have started looking next summer in normal times. Got a good deal (MSRP, the ones at dealerships ATM are selling for $5k+ over MSRP) on something that appears to perfectly meet our needs so we weren't taking chances waiting when it appears that the supply chain issues are likely to get worse in the next little while.
Kagord
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by Kagord »

I'm really concerned and hoping there isn't a shortage of dealer add ons and repair warranty options, I like all those and will gladly offer to pay an additional premium if available. I practice saying yes, yes, yes, before I get into the financing office.
njdealguy
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by njdealguy »

H-Town wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:22 am I'm curious what is the urgency of buying a car with thousands of dollars dealership fees tack on the MSRP?

Bogleheads are known to not going with the crowd.

Why don't we just chill and wait for the buy opportunities?
Market timing! Chill & wait may take years to clear up.
tibbitts
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by tibbitts »

njdealguy wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:51 pm
H-Town wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:22 am I'm curious what is the urgency of buying a car with thousands of dollars dealership fees tack on the MSRP?

Bogleheads are known to not going with the crowd.

Why don't we just chill and wait for the buy opportunities?
Market timing! Chill & wait may take years to clear up.
That's what I was thinking when I didn't buy 15mo or so ago: it looked like there were at least months if not years of very limited vehicle use in the future, so why upgrade my car just to have a newer car sit and rot (well... deteriorate?) So that was sort of market timing; it seemed to make sense to wait until I could see the opportunity to use the car more before upgrading.
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by ScubaHogg »

One data point.

Bought a new minivan in January before things got really nuts. Did all the steps outlined here on BH. Emailed several different dealerships with exactly what I wanted, etc. Naturally that resulted in a few back and forths that took some time.

As an experiment I also got a quote through the Costco program at a different dealership. Once it was all said and done I think the Costco price was like $200 more than the price I painstakingly negotiated. I’m hindsight I would have saved myself a bunch of time and bought the Costco offer.
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Userdc
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by Userdc »

I got a new car below MSRP last month.

But I think i was just lucky that I wanted a less desirable vehicle AKA a sedan.
Old Guy
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by Old Guy »

I’ll be using the X plan code for my Mach E I received from the Mustang Club of America. Ninety day membership required to get the code. Paid $35.00 for the year membership.
bobolinx
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by bobolinx »

Bought a used car at a Mazda dealership in July. I sensed that their inventory was low, but moving at a good pace. I had originally used TruCar for a price quote, but didn't want to spend that much money. Got a 2019 Cx5, 12K miles, for over 10k less than the 2021 price. I had tried to sell my 133K 2014 CR-V, but there were no takers, so I turned it in for a "fair deal". (It needed some work). I had to get rid of the CR-V for seat issues. Loved it, otherwise. My assessment is that dealerships are doing well during this "shortage" and creating a panic so they can call the price. Yes, inventory is low. But, there are still new cars coming in and for a flexible buyer, plenty of choices.
MrsRoos
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by MrsRoos »

In the market for a new car and decided that I want a new Subaru Outback. I ended up emailing all of the Subaru dealerships in the Bay Area asking about price and availability. With some quotes in hand, I was able to negotiate with dealers to match the lowest price that I was given. It took a bit of back and forth but maybe no more than 1 hour of emailing spread over a week. Also tried the Costco auto program but they weren’t able to beat lowest pricing. The dealers that have cars in stock wanted $4,000-$5,000 over MSRP. In the end, I ordered a vehicle for $2,000 under MSRP but the car will arrive in January (so I hope).
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LiveSimple
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by LiveSimple »

Just supply and demand, there is no supply or supply is impacted hugely. So as the demand raises, so will be the price. This will continue inn the next year 2022.

Another economic factor is if the dealership is run by selling 1000 cars now the same dealership has to be run by selling 100 cars. Hence the price over MSRP.

If you can wait, you can wait, but however when the industry has seen some pattern of selling at MSRP, that is not going to go over in the near future.
Dmslax45
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by Dmslax45 »

I needed a new car about 2 months ago, and was able to get ~$5k below sticker on a new Ram pickup. Needed (wanted) a truck and looked at all full size pickups and everywhere else was either $5k+ over sticker with limited inventory or unavailable until next year. I emailed a bunch of Ram dealers within a 50 mile radius and asked for the best price on what they had. Ram wouldn’t have been my first choice under “normal” circumstances, but happy with it and the price, which ended up at $46k on a 2021 Bighorn model.
psteinx
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by psteinx »

Dmslax45 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:07 am I needed a new car about 2 months ago, and was able to get ~$5k below sticker on a new Ram pickup.
I don't know much about pickup pricing (in traditional times or now, in the COVID mess). But it's possible that Rams conventionally have a bigger gap between MSRP and actual selling price than other pickups or than cars, and that you still paid, effectively, a similar premium to the "normal" price as, say, Honda buyers paying MSRP or somewhat above.
Dmslax45
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Re: Anyone negotiate a car lately? Any room as consumers?

Post by Dmslax45 »

psteinx wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:52 am
Dmslax45 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:07 am I needed a new car about 2 months ago, and was able to get ~$5k below sticker on a new Ram pickup.
I don't know much about pickup pricing (in traditional times or now, in the COVID mess). But it's possible that Rams conventionally have a bigger gap between MSRP and actual selling price than other pickups or than cars, and that you still paid, effectively, a similar premium to the "normal" price as, say, Honda buyers paying MSRP or somewhat above.
Perhaps. I wasn’t really looking pricing until I new I needed a new car, so can’t speak to pricing before things got crazy. I will say, though, that all but two Ram dealers we unwilling to go below sticker price, but was able to leverage the two who were willing to go lower against each each other for better pricing.

Just one example for OP of some dealers still willing to negotiate, but seems to absolutely depend on the dealer/vehicle.
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