water softener for whole house?

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Chuck107
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Re: water softener for whole house?

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willthrill81
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Re: water softener for whole house?

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Chuck107 wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:16 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:01 pm
Chuck107 wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 4:27 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:27 pm
Chuck107 wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:13 pm

You can hire a plumber after you get the equipment, I installed it myself though.
My concern is that I don't know where the water main coming into the house is. I can turn on or off the main from an underground box out in our yard, but that's certainly not where a softener system would be placed. TMK, it's not in our garage.
Do you have a basement/crawlspace or a slab?
And are you located where it does not freeze during the winter?
Slab. It gets into the 10s every year and sometimes down to zero (F).
That's going to be hard, you would need a 2' x 3' floor print for a typical brine tank and media tank. plus water filters inside the house.
They ARE ugly btw. Fine for basement but in the living area no, and I'm a guy lol.

There are alternatives if hidden from view room space is scarce.
An example is https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-31-100-G ... /206184479
It has a filter built in for chlorine as well. saves space and the uglyness.

I can't attest to these type of all in one softener cabinet Quality, as I do not have one.

If you can't find where the water main come into the house, a Plumber may be needed for that at least.
I would start looking at or near the Hot Water heater, and Laundry room. They are "usually" next to each other in slab homes.
Here I thought that I was pretty handy! I just went investigating by our water heater, which is in the same closet in our garage as our gas furnace, and I found the main valve for the house! The pipes are all behind the dry wall, so only the valve is exposed, but cutting that out is easy, and it will be invisible from inside the house. While the garage isn't heated, both the gas furnace and the water heater being in the same space always keep it far above freezing.

Thanks!! I feel like I'm making progress.
“Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings
Chuck107
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Re: water softener for whole house?

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willthrill81
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Re: water softener for whole house?

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Chuck107 wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:32 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:23 pm
Chuck107 wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:16 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:01 pm
Chuck107 wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 4:27 pm

Do you have a basement/crawlspace or a slab?
And are you located where it does not freeze during the winter?
Slab. It gets into the 10s every year and sometimes down to zero (F).
That's going to be hard, you would need a 2' x 3' floor print for a typical brine tank and media tank. plus water filters inside the house.
They ARE ugly btw. Fine for basement but in the living area no, and I'm a guy lol.

There are alternatives if hidden from view room space is scarce.
An example is https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-31-100-G ... /206184479
It has a filter built in for chlorine as well. saves space and the uglyness.

I can't attest to these type of all in one softener cabinet Quality, as I do not have one.

If you can't find where the water main come into the house, a Plumber may be needed for that at least.
I would start looking at or near the Hot Water heater, and Laundry room. They are "usually" next to each other in slab homes.
Here I thought that I was pretty handy! I just went investigating by our water heater, which is in the same closet in our garage as our gas furnace, and I found the main valve for the house! The pipes are all behind the dry wall, so only the valve is exposed, but cutting that out is easy, and it will be invisible from inside the house. While the garage isn't heated, both the gas furnace and the water heater being in the same space always keep it far above freezing.

Thanks!! I feel like I'm making progress.
Cool :sharebeer As long as you have a spot in there with a 3x2 foot floor space without blocking access to the HW heater and furnace, you got it made for a Fleck unit. I am certain a place for two big blue water filter housings will fit in there someplace. One housing is for sediment and another is for chlorine.
And I'm guessing that Ohio Pure Water sells Fleck equipment?
“Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings
Chuck107
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Re: water softener for whole house?

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willthrill81
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Re: water softener for whole house?

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Chuck107 wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:40 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:38 pm
Chuck107 wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:32 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:23 pm
Chuck107 wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:16 pm

That's going to be hard, you would need a 2' x 3' floor print for a typical brine tank and media tank. plus water filters inside the house.
They ARE ugly btw. Fine for basement but in the living area no, and I'm a guy lol.

There are alternatives if hidden from view room space is scarce.
An example is https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-31-100-G ... /206184479
It has a filter built in for chlorine as well. saves space and the uglyness.

I can't attest to these type of all in one softener cabinet Quality, as I do not have one.

If you can't find where the water main come into the house, a Plumber may be needed for that at least.
I would start looking at or near the Hot Water heater, and Laundry room. They are "usually" next to each other in slab homes.
Here I thought that I was pretty handy! I just went investigating by our water heater, which is in the same closet in our garage as our gas furnace, and I found the main valve for the house! The pipes are all behind the dry wall, so only the valve is exposed, but cutting that out is easy, and it will be invisible from inside the house. While the garage isn't heated, both the gas furnace and the water heater being in the same space always keep it far above freezing.

Thanks!! I feel like I'm making progress.
Cool :sharebeer As long as you have a spot in there with a 3x2 foot floor space without blocking access to the HW heater and furnace, you got it made for a Fleck unit. I am certain a place for two big blue water filter housings will fit in there someplace. One housing is for sediment and another is for chlorine.
And I'm guessing that Ohio Pure Water sells Fleck equipment?
Absolutely
Great! I'll call them tomorrow morning. Thanks again!
“Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings
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Re: water softener for whole house?

Post by TimeRunner »

You're on the right track. Just a bit more info on the two drain lines. One is a drain line that is used when the resin beads are being backwashed or forward-washed during a regeneration cycle. It has a discharge similar to a full load of laundry. (If your clothes washer is nearby, you can use the same drain line.) The other line is an overflow line for the housing that holds the salt. The water conditioner has a shut-off valve similar to a toilet tank valve, which, if it fails, will continue to flow water into the salt tank, so the overflow hose would then flow that water by gravity to hopefully somewhere outside and away from your foundation until someone like you or a neighbor would realize you have a problem and would shut off your water.

Put at least a sediment filter just before your water conditioner to catch any crapola. Mount it sturdy and make it convenient to get to for filter changes. Consider a clear plastic housing so you can actually see how dirty the filter is.

We have an ordinary non-fancy GE conditioner from Home Depot/Lowes (I can't remember) purchased around 2007. I changed out the resin beads in 2016 when it was no longer effective. Works fine now. You can get fancier, but the technology has basically been the same for decades. Looks like the only change GE's made is changed from round shapes to square on the container that holds the salt. Makes sense - if it works, why dork with it?

Read up on how they work and what the cycles are, and you'll understand clearly the install requirements. :beer
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Re: water softener for whole house?

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TimeRunner wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:55 pm You're on the right track. Just a bit more info on the two drain lines. One is a drain line that is used when the resin beads are being backwashed or forward-washed during a regeneration cycle. It has a discharge similar to a full load of laundry. (If your clothes washer is nearby, you can use the same drain line.) The other line is an overflow line for the housing that holds the salt. The water conditioner has a shut-off valve similar to a toilet tank valve, which, if it fails, will continue to flow water into the salt tank, so the overflow hose would then flow that water by gravity to hopefully somewhere outside and away from your foundation until someone like you or a neighbor would realize you have a problem and would shut off your water.

Put at least a sediment filter just before your water conditioner to catch any crapola. Mount it sturdy and make it convenient to get to for filter changes. Consider a clear plastic housing so you can actually see how dirty the filter is.

We have an ordinary non-fancy GE conditioner from Home Depot/Lowes (I can't remember) purchased around 2007. I changed out the resin beads in 2016 when it was no longer effective. Works fine now. You can get fancier, but the technology has basically been the same for decades. Looks like the only change GE's made is changed from round shapes to square on the container that holds the salt. Makes sense - if it works, why dork with it?

Read up on how they work and what the cycles are, and you'll understand clearly the install requirements. :beer
There is what looks to be a 3" drain a few feet under the main house valve. Right now, that drain serves both a line coming from the water heater pressure release valve and a line coming from the gas furnace, but it sounds like it could certainly handle the backwash line coming from the softener system. It might be able to handle the overflow line, but I don't know. Cutting a hole in the slab for a drain is not going to happen.

I'm hoping that I can send Ohio Pure Water some pictures of my setup and get their thoughts on the best way to tackle it. I'll report back what they say, hopefully tomorrow.
“Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings
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Re: water softener for whole house?

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I called Ohio Pure Water this morning, and they were extremely helpful. The price for the system, including shipping cost, was only about $750, significantly less than I anticipated. It seems that the installation shouldn't be too difficult, definitely within my wheelhouse. I'm finish another project right now, but I'll very likely order the system from them this week.

Thanks to all who made this great recommendation!
“Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings
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Re: water softener for whole house?

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Re: water softener for whole house?

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Chuck107 wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:18 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 2:25 pm I called Ohio Pure Water this morning, and they were extremely helpful. The price for the system, including shipping cost, was only about $750, significantly less than I anticipated. It seems that the installation shouldn't be too difficult, definitely within my wheelhouse. I'm finish another project right now, but I'll very likely order the system from them this week.

Thanks to all who made this great recommendation!
Cool, They are very helpful. Even years later after purchase.

Might I make the suggestion to go with the totally mechanical Fleck head. Not digital.
Even Ohio Pure Water told me recently they "never" get call backs with the mechanical head, they are bullet proof.
Mine is 11 yrs trouble free.
I'll do that when I place the order, probably in a couple of days. Thanks again!
“Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings
28fe6
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Re: water softener for whole house?

Post by 28fe6 »

Chuck107 wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:18 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 2:25 pm I called Ohio Pure Water this morning, and they were extremely helpful. The price for the system, including shipping cost, was only about $750, significantly less than I anticipated. It seems that the installation shouldn't be too difficult, definitely within my wheelhouse. I'm finish another project right now, but I'll very likely order the system from them this week.

Thanks to all who made this great recommendation!
Cool, They are very helpful. Even years later after purchase.

Might I make the suggestion to go with the totally mechanical Fleck head. Not digital.
Even Ohio Pure Water told me recently they "never" get call backs with the mechanical head, they are bullet proof.
Mine is 11 yrs trouble free.
Does the mechanical head make noise, though? My water softener would be installed in my garage space, which is now office space. Mechanical timers often make a ticking noise. I couldn't stand any repetitive noise like that.
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Re: water softener for whole house?

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Chuck107 wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:18 pm

Might I make the suggestion to go with the totally mechanical Fleck head. Not digital.
Even Ohio Pure Water told me recently they "never" get call backs with the mechanical head, they are bullet proof.
Mine is 11 yrs trouble free.
The mechanical controller is probably more reliable and dependable. I bought the digital unit, though, and have had no problems. Does the mechanical one measure the water use and run only when a certain volume of water has been used, or is it a timer-based controller? I like that mine actually measures water use and runs in the middle of the night when necessary.
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Chuck107
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Re: water softener for whole house?

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Re: water softener for whole house?

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We have a one from a local company. We have iron in our water, so once in a while I run iron-out through it. It's still getting clogged up, after 20 years of use, it's time to put some new resin in it.
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Re: water softener for whole house?

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Re: water softener for whole house?

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Re: water softener for whole house?

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Chuck107 wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:26 pm I just remembered my install, I highly recommend filling the tank with the media provided OUTSIDE in the yard/driveway etc.
Those minuscule little shiny beads that make up the media, can spill/bounce everywhere, 11 yrs and I still see them around.
Reminded me when I was a kid spilling a pack of 5000 bb's in my parents kitchen. Damn I'll never forget that. lol
Charlie at Ohio Pure Water said that they would load the resin for me before shipping at no charge if I requested them to do so. I definitely will. :)
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Re: water softener for whole house?

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I got the Fleck water softener system today. The cost of the system including shipping was $746. Though it took me three trips to the big box hardware stores to get the adapters and pipe, I finished installing it myself this afternoon, reportedly saving myself at least $800 in labor. It looks like it's working well, though I recognized right away that I need more bags of salt.
“Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings
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Re: water softener for whole house?

Post by Chip »

willthrill81 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:56 pm I got the Fleck water softener system today. The cost of the system including shipping was $746. Though it took me three trips to the big box hardware stores to get the adapters and pipe, I finished installing it myself this afternoon, reportedly saving myself at least $800 in labor. It looks like it's working well, though I recognized right away that I need more bags of salt.
Nice work! I suggest that you not completely (or mostly) fill the salt reservoir. That can lead to a salt bridge, which is a PITA to break loose. I only put one bag at a time into mine, which lasts 2+ months.
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Re: water softener for whole house?

Post by Yooper »

Chip wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:36 am
Nice work! I suggest that you not completely (or mostly) fill the salt reservoir. That can lead to a salt bridge, which is a PITA to break loose. I only put one bag at a time into mine, which lasts 2+ months.
Chip,
I've never been able to find a straight answer on this, or explanation. But I've always read that you should have enough salt to cover the water, no more - no less. The "why" has always puzzled me. Water can only absorb a certain amount of salt, so if the salt is just below the water level or just above the water level it seems it shouldn't matter. I've always added enough salt that the top layer is dry, but my only reasoning is "just because that's what I've been told"..... Which drives me nuts. Do you or someone else know why?
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Re: water softener for whole house?

Post by Chip »

Yooper wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:19 am Chip,
I've never been able to find a straight answer on this, or explanation. But I've always read that you should have enough salt to cover the water, no more - no less. The "why" has always puzzled me. Water can only absorb a certain amount of salt, so if the salt is just below the water level or just above the water level it seems it shouldn't matter. I've always added enough salt that the top layer is dry, but my only reasoning is "just because that's what I've been told"..... Which drives me nuts. Do you or someone else know why?
You're correct that the water can only dissolve a certain amount of salt, so that as long as you can see solid salt in the brine well, either above or below the water surface, everything is okay.

I suspect the recommendation is an attempt to get people to put enough in that they don't risk running out quickly along with avoiding the salt bridge problem. When I refill mine it's usually to 6"+ above the water level at it's highest point. It's in an uneven pile, so I can usually see the water where the salt is lowest.

I honestly think I could put in a good bit more and still have little risk of a salt bridge, but adding salt every couple of months isn't a hassle. The salt bridge I dealt with one time was. :)
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Re: water softener for whole house?

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Re: water softener for whole house?

Post by crefwatch »

One of my worries is the non-copper parts of the plumbing. Our neighbor abandoned their water softener (after their kids moved out?) and twenty years later, some colorful small-diameter plastic tubing failed and flooded their basement. (Yes, they did not "properly" abandon the system. I saw the bypass valve they should have thrown ... )

That's one of the reasons we haven't considered reverse osmosis. That, and that we have a septic system that would have to dispose of the RO waste water. We just live with the calcium deposits. We did get a dishwasher with its own salt dispenser, which lasts much longer than regular dishwashers in our hard-water town.
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Re: water softener for whole house?

Post by notBobToo »

Chip wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:36 am
willthrill81 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:56 pm I got the Fleck water softener system today. The cost of the system including shipping was $746. Though it took me three trips to the big box hardware stores to get the adapters and pipe, I finished installing it myself this afternoon, reportedly saving myself at least $800 in labor. It looks like it's working well, though I recognized right away that I need more bags of salt.
Nice work! I suggest that you not completely (or mostly) fill the salt reservoir. That can lead to a salt bridge, which is a PITA to break loose. I only put one bag at a time into mine, which lasts 2+ months.
+1

I found out the hard way with my old (Sears) Kenmore model. One bag (yellow, large pellets) at a time. After breaking up consecutive salt bridges, I was about to give up and order a replacement with the Fleck system. Instead, one last try, I loaded in one bag, one bag only, and off she went, evermore. I should say that I also replaced the Venturi assembly, so there was that.
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Re: water softener for whole house?

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Chuck107 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:46 am
willthrill81 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:56 pm I got the Fleck water softener system today. The cost of the system including shipping was $746. Though it took me three trips to the big box hardware stores to get the adapters and pipe, I finished installing it myself this afternoon, reportedly saving myself at least $800 in labor. It looks like it's working well, though I recognized right away that I need more bags of salt.
Good job :beer

I trust you also put in a carbon/chlorine filter as well. Chlorine ruins the media in the softener tank.
No, I didn't. I spoke with Jean at Ohio Pure Water, where I bought our water softener system, and she never said anything about needing a chlorine filter. She did say that point of use carbon filters were fine but not necessary at all for the whole house. The installation instructions they provided also said nothing about a chlorine filter even though they specifically discussed how to tap into the water main. They're closed now, so I cannot contact them until Monday, but a quick search online seems to indicate that only certain resins are affected by chlorine. Perhaps the resins OPW sells don't interact with chlorine.

I'll contact them on Monday to verify this. It was close quarters to install the water softener, and don't think that I have room for a filter unless I installed up high on a wall on a shelf.
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Re: water softener for whole house?

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Re: water softener for whole house?

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Chuck107 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:50 am
willthrill81 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:42 am
Chuck107 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:46 am
willthrill81 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:56 pm I got the Fleck water softener system today. The cost of the system including shipping was $746. Though it took me three trips to the big box hardware stores to get the adapters and pipe, I finished installing it myself this afternoon, reportedly saving myself at least $800 in labor. It looks like it's working well, though I recognized right away that I need more bags of salt.
Good job :beer

I trust you also put in a carbon/chlorine filter as well. Chlorine ruins the media in the softener tank.
No, I didn't. I spoke with Jean at Ohio Pure Water, where I bought our water softener system, and she never said anything about needing a chlorine filter. She did say that point of use carbon filters were fine but not necessary at all for the whole house. The installation instructions they provided also said nothing about a chlorine filter even though they specifically discussed how to tap into the water main. They're closed now, so I cannot contact them until Monday, but a quick search online seems to indicate that only certain resins are affected by chlorine. Perhaps the resins OPW sells don't interact with chlorine.

I'll contact them on Monday to verify this. It was close quarters to install the water softener, and don't think that I have room for a filter unless I installed up high on a wall on a shelf.
Ah, well it could be newer resin doesn't require it.
At the time it was advised for me to get it.
I use a big blue 20" housing with a pentek filter for .5 micron and chlorine good for 1 yr or 50k gallons.
Let me know if you need the specs. after talking with them.
Btw water and coffee tastes way much better without the chlorine.
We have been using water pitchers with built-in charcoal filters for years, and our water tastes fantastic.

I'll report back what they tell me about chlorinated water going through the water softener, but I'm 99% sure that they'll say that it's unnecessary.
“Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings
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Re: water softener for whole house?

Post by willthrill81 »

Chuck107 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:50 am
willthrill81 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:42 am
Chuck107 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:46 am
willthrill81 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:56 pm I got the Fleck water softener system today. The cost of the system including shipping was $746. Though it took me three trips to the big box hardware stores to get the adapters and pipe, I finished installing it myself this afternoon, reportedly saving myself at least $800 in labor. It looks like it's working well, though I recognized right away that I need more bags of salt.
Good job :beer

I trust you also put in a carbon/chlorine filter as well. Chlorine ruins the media in the softener tank.
No, I didn't. I spoke with Jean at Ohio Pure Water, where I bought our water softener system, and she never said anything about needing a chlorine filter. She did say that point of use carbon filters were fine but not necessary at all for the whole house. The installation instructions they provided also said nothing about a chlorine filter even though they specifically discussed how to tap into the water main. They're closed now, so I cannot contact them until Monday, but a quick search online seems to indicate that only certain resins are affected by chlorine. Perhaps the resins OPW sells don't interact with chlorine.

I'll contact them on Monday to verify this. It was close quarters to install the water softener, and don't think that I have room for a filter unless I installed up high on a wall on a shelf.
Ah, well it could be newer resin doesn't require it.
At the time it was advised for me to get it.
I use a big blue 20" housing with a pentek filter for .5 micron and chlorine good for 1 yr or 50k gallons.
Let me know if you need the specs. after talking with them.
Btw water and coffee tastes way much better without the chlorine.
I got in touch with OPW, and they said that chlorine filters are not at all necessary with the resins they sell at least. Some of their customers with chlorinated water have been using the same resin for 15 years, and most are getting at least a decade out of it before replacement. So that's one less thing to worry about. If I have to replace the resin in a decade, I'll call that a win. :D
“Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings
Chuck107
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Re: water softener for whole house?

Post by Chuck107 »

.....
Last edited by Chuck107 on Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
Alas, I find moderation of this forum too restrictive for my tastes, farewell.
RCL
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Re: water softener for whole house?

Post by RCL »

Any idea what it would cost if you had to replace the bead media? just wondering
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TimeRunner
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Re: water softener for whole house?

Post by TimeRunner »

RCL wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:41 pm Any idea what it would cost if you had to replace the bead media? just wondering
Example: https://smile.amazon.com/Purolite-C-100 ... B078PTDFDF
Don't forget a funnel, example: https://smile.amazon.com/Funnel-Replace ... /B0096QXC1
See Youtube for how-to videos, example: https://youtu.be/sH0o71luLX0
One cannot enlighten the unconscious. | If you think you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room.
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Re: water softener for whole house?

Post by Chip »

willthrill81 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:56 pm I got the Fleck water softener system today. The cost of the system including shipping was $746. Though it took me three trips to the big box hardware stores to get the adapters and pipe, I finished installing it myself this afternoon, reportedly saving myself at least $800 in labor. It looks like it's working well, though I recognized right away that I need more bags of salt.
Resurrecting old thread....

Did you get the mechanical or electronic head unit? If mechanical, is there much noise from it?

My softener had a catastrophic failure due to my poor installation so I'm in the market for another one.
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willthrill81
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Re: water softener for whole house?

Post by willthrill81 »

Chip wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:15 am
willthrill81 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:56 pm I got the Fleck water softener system today. The cost of the system including shipping was $746. Though it took me three trips to the big box hardware stores to get the adapters and pipe, I finished installing it myself this afternoon, reportedly saving myself at least $800 in labor. It looks like it's working well, though I recognized right away that I need more bags of salt.
Resurrecting old thread....

Did you get the mechanical or electronic head unit? If mechanical, is there much noise from it?

My softener had a catastrophic failure due to my poor installation so I'm in the market for another one.
Ours has the electronic head unit. We've never heard a sound from it, even during regeneration, though it's in a closet in our garage along with our furnace and electric water heater. It's been 100% trouble-free, and Ohio Pure Water was fantastic at every stage of the process.
“Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings
kabob
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Re: water softener for whole house?

Post by kabob »

Water softener for whole house" - Don't Mess Around! - Get, startwith, a Kenitico Signature Series!!!
Image
It's a 2 tank, No timer, no electricity, No Problems, Total peace a mind - fine World Class water softening/conditioning System! I currently have a Kenitico & have had em in previous homes too.
From experience and my BogleBucks Kenitco is the BEST Water softener/conditioner to be found!
Kenitco Site link: https://www.kinetico.com/water-softener ... re-series/

I grew up on a farm requiring a water softener and been a round em my whole life.
Keepin it simple, the 2tank Sig Sys that uses the kinetic energy of the flow of water to switch from one tank to the other when a tank need recharging, automatically (without timer, electrical connection, or any manual intervention) is fantastic and works perfectly! Even leave, go on vacation, no problem, no flow, no salt usage - nothing needed. The tanks are filled with custom mixed tank charge for your specific water conditions and flow - Truly Set it and Forget! (just check/fill the brine tank occasionally). One time after 15yrs of operation we started noticing some water spots on the glass shower door - we called Kenitico, they came out tested the water from each tank, said one tank needed a refill/recharge for a minor charge - we were right back perfect again. Now that IS super service and performance! That Kenitco sys is still probably functioning perfectly after 40+ yrs!
In that house on Fla, the tanks, both conditioning & brine, were outside half buryed in the ground(sand) behind landscape bushes for easy access and fillin brine tank.
Per my experience with Water Softening/conditioning system one cant touch Kenitco for either Price or Preformance!

And on Pricing, other posts have mentioned Kenitico's are among the Most Expensive!
Well Sure, call the local Kenitico distributor and have a Kenitco SalesMan sent out - Yea, It might be per SALESMAN!
However, You, personally, go over as a walkin to the local Kenitic Office/Service center, and talk to Mgr - sayin you have some friends with Kenitico sys's and you'd like the most reasonable price for a complete sys, installed & plumbed (with some specific outets being Not softened water). {plus, stroke him a bit that Kenitco the best}

Plus, do your homework!, Learn/know they're products... (like ia above)
The Kenitico Signature sys is the Base 2tank sys, and probably all any house really needs!
and there are always optional add-ons, like the K5 super/special/reverse osmosis/etc stuff - plus More.
Actually just one good/large whole house filter b4 the softener ill that is really needed, but, with a little good strokin the mgr - that's thrown in "FREE" with purchase of the Sig system!(as a ongoing promo)
Hey, your a guaranteed walkin sale, to the Mgr, who wont have to pay the SALESMAN's commission who WILL try and milk it and might loose the sale! There's HUGE+++ $$$$ in sales in this Biz.
(as other posts in this thread have mentioned, $2400-3000 will get a Nice New Kenitco Sig Sys "Custom" installed, as ya want it, say, garden water, kitchen cookin, cold drink/ice non softened water and such.
And the Kenitico service/installer employees Know/Do installs/service every day and Know how to Do It Right the first time (noProblems))

And Don't Believe ME - Just ask anybody/everybody else who have had a Kenitco Sig sys!
Tuff to Beat a Kenitico Sig Sys - and will raise the Val of the House!
Last edited by kabob on Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
Chip
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Re: water softener for whole house?

Post by Chip »

willthrill81 wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:48 am Ours has the electronic head unit. We've never heard a sound from it, even during regeneration, though it's in a closet in our garage along with our furnace and electric water heater. It's been 100% trouble-free, and Ohio Pure Water was fantastic at every stage of the process.
Thanks. I had electronic head units on my last two. No noise except during regeneration. It's in the basement so that sound travels up to the first floor.
Chip
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Re: water softener for whole house?

Post by Chip »

kabob wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:40 am [...]It's a 2 tank, No timer, no electricity, No Problems[...]
That was quite a sales pitch.

Why would I need 2 tanks with 14 gpg water and a 2 person household? I already have electricity at my install location so a mechanical timer is not a requirement. I would prefer regeneration at night so some sort of timer is required.
tonyclifton
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Re: water softener for whole house?

Post by tonyclifton »

HillCountry wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:10 pm We have Puronics hydronex for 7 years. Very happy.
Our house came with a Puronics that we use and keep serviced since 2007. Our city tap water is better than bottled water. We think the system was installed in the late 90s. It uses very little salt and every other year we have the service where they replace the carbon. If it stopped working we would likely buy a new one.
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Re: water softener for whole house?

Post by seawolf21 »

Chip wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:03 am
kabob wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:40 am [...]It's a 2 tank, No timer, no electricity, No Problems[...]
That was quite a sales pitch.

Why would I need 2 tanks with 14 gpg water and a 2 person household? I already have electricity at my install location so a mechanical timer is not a requirement. I would prefer regeneration at night so some sort of timer is required.
Seems like overkill when many households can be served by a GE/AO Smith 40K grain unit for $500-$800 from HD/Lowe's.
squirm
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Re: water softener for whole house?

Post by squirm »

Get one that doesn't rely on an external power source.
Chip
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Re: water softener for whole house?

Post by Chip »

squirm wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:45 am Get one that doesn't rely on an external power source.
Why? I have power available at the install location.
kabob
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Re: water softener for whole house?

Post by kabob »

That was quite a sales pitch.
Na, Its just a being NoProb, Proud owner of a Nice Kenitico Sig Sys...
And as a BogleHead its a Good Value and Utility Item for anyone wanting/needing Good Pure Soft Water!
Here my current one.
Image

One thing I would do over (and may git rid of) - Is that Free Promo K5 Special filter unit and black tank ReverseOsmosis filter and all that nasty cheapo black small plastic tubing it requires - Nasty and not needed.
A good whole house Filter and the 2Tank Sig sys is all that needed, and all I had on previous houses.
They gave/promo'd me that stuff for FREE just for the required Service filter changes($Charges$) - there's 3 filters in/to that K5 & R-Osmosis unit every yr or 2 as someone else mentioned. That stuff is the real OverKill!
The Base Kenitico Sig Sys by itself does a Fine Job!
(and, i have seen a smaller tanked version of my Std sized Signature version, and i think there are some other Mfgrs of similar water flo/kenitic driven softeners.)
)

No sales pitch here, just a BogleReview of a Kenitico Sig Sys from a realwold owner of a couple of em.
"I had electronic head units on my last two" is most probably something a Kenitico Sig owner will Never have to say - they'll probably last longer the House!

***

Why? I have power available at the install location.
Cause any power outage/blurp requires a electric timer set/setup, it regens on a fixed schedule whether need or not(waste/salt usage), and Electric timer gear driven valves mechanisms anywhere a BrineTank has limited life (especially those timers on top the the fliptop brinetank lid![a formula for failure]), they have service interuptions while regening, and Are Noisy! - Kenitico's are setup with waterflow/metering lifelong plastic gears that switch the tank and regen the the other - Smoothly & Quietly! - without any interruption in service(cause it doesnt have to regen Fast and Noisily)
BUt enough, am not a Salesman, there are many softeners that are much less expensive that can probably do the job. I just have learned and LIKE my NoProblem Kenitco's.
I have a relatively samll ~2000sqft home and usually 2 primary(retired) person usage, and when family/quests visit (up to 6)- the increased usage flow just smoothly/automatically keeps us all in silky soft water! Ya, they are a bit more expensive than some other good units, perhaps luxury units - but we do Like our Kenitco...
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Re: water softener for whole house?

Post by kabob »

Just as info THE biggest most common problem with softeners is using ElCheapo(impure) Salt and Pellets or old smashed/packed/stacked salt. It causes what they call bridging - packed Chuncks & holes in large chunks that don't desolve correctly, goofs up the salt brine levels and doesn't provide the right super solution of brine - and therefore performance of the softener!Cleaning, removing hard chunks a salt, rinsing out a replacing salt with good, new salt is required and usually fixes the softener (hopefully)
Best action - keep an eye on the level of the salt as it goes down, it should fall cascade down smoothly, if chunks or hard top surface is noticed - Stop using that Salt, remove big hard chunks and bridging and get Good Salt!
When ya notice a softener isnt preforming right - get on it right away or it can be the ruination of the whole softener! (dont ask how I know)
Chip
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Re: water softener for whole house?

Post by Chip »

kabob wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:54 pm Cause any power outage/blurp requires a electric timer set/setup, it regens on a fixed schedule whether need or not(waste/salt usage), and Electric timer gear driven valves mechanisms anywhere a BrineTank has limited life (especially those timers on top the the fliptop brinetank lid![a formula for failure]), they have service interuptions while regening, and Are Noisy!
That's not been my experience. The electronic softeners I've owned all retained their settings during power outages of 24 hours or less. They were demand-driven based on a water flow sensor near the outlet, not on a fixed schedule. The only noise I've ever heard is water gushing during regeneration.
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Re: water softener for whole house?

Post by Yooper »

Chip wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:03 pm
kabob wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:54 pm Cause any power outage/blurp requires a electric timer set/setup, it regens on a fixed schedule whether need or not(waste/salt usage), and Electric timer gear driven valves mechanisms anywhere a BrineTank has limited life (especially those timers on top the the fliptop brinetank lid![a formula for failure]), they have service interuptions while regening, and Are Noisy!
That's not been my experience. The electronic softeners I've owned all retained their settings during power outages of 24 hours or less. They were demand-driven based on a water flow sensor near the outlet, not on a fixed schedule. The only noise I've ever heard is water gushing during regeneration.
My experience mirrors Chip's. Plus, no service interruptions during the regeneration cycle (which happens at 0500). The only difference is if someone gets up and flushes the toilet during the regeneration cycle hard water will flow since it's in the bypass mode. The "water noise" is minimal and only noticeable if you're right outside the closet where the softener is.
Chip
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Re: water softener for whole house?

Post by Chip »

Resurrecting an old thread....

I just finished a "tune-up" on my relatively new Fleck 5600SXT softener (1 cu ft resin, 32,000 grains). I think the changes I made to softener settings will save nearly 400# of salt per year compared to the initial settings I used. I don't believe there will be a noticeable difference in water quality, though I will be testing it to make sure. I made these changes after reading plenty of threads on the terrylove.com plumbing site.

The first change resulted from getting a serious water hardness testing kit, a Hach 5B (~$25). The water company says my water hardness was 14 gpg (grains per gallon). Testing showed it was 12 gpg. I understand that this number can vary seasonally depending on rainfall, water sourcing, etc., so I will be checking it a few times a year. The Hach kit is good for quite a few tests.

The second change was to reduce the amount of salt used in each regeneration. Apparently, in order to get the "advertised" 32k grains of softening capacity requires using a lot of salt (~20# per cu ft of resin). One can use much less salt per regeneration at the cost of reduced capacity. A "sweet spot" that was recommended was 8#/cu ft, which reduces capacity to 24k grains. Chart here.

This change is made by adjusting the "brine fill" (BF) time on the Fleck. This determines how much water goes back into the brine tank after a regeneration (and therefore what is used in the next regeneration). There is an orifice that controls the flow rate into the tank at .5 gpm. Saturated brine has 3# of salt per gallon. So each minute of brine fill will provide 1.5# of salt for the next regeneration. The BF setting is in integer minutes. I chose 5 minutes, which will provide 7.5# (5 * 1.5#) of salt. This compares to the vendor's recommended setting of 10 minutes, or 15# of salt.

Reducing the salt reduces the capacity of the softener. Interpolating the chart referenced above, I reprogrammed the softener capacity to 23k grains from the original 32k. This only affects the frequency of regeneration.

The third adjustment was to change how often the softener was required to regenerate, even if water usage hasn't been enough to trigger it. The vendor was adamant that regeneration should happen at least every 10 days. Threads on terrylove.com suggest that this is only necessary if the incoming water contains significant amounts of iron. Mine doesn't, so I changed this setting ("Day Override") to 28 days.

The fourth adjustment was to change the reserve capacity setting. This setting causes a regneration to be scheduled before actually running out of soft water. The vendor suggested using a "safety factor" of 20% of capacity, which would have been about 400 gallons of water given the other settings. I changed this to a reserve capacity in gallons, set to 120 gallons ("normal" usage for a 2 person household). I've since determined our average usage at 105 gallons per day.

With all that done, here's how I calculate the salt savings:

Previous settings: With our usage the 10 day override would always happen before a water usage trigger. So the softener would regenerate 36.5 times per year (365 days/10). At 15# of salt per regeneration, that's 548# of salt.

New settings: 23k capacity/12 gpg = 1917 gallons of soft water per regeneration. [(1917 gals - 120/2 gal reserve)/105 gpd usage) = 17.7 days per regeneration. 7.5# *365/17.7 = 155# salt.

548 - 155 = 393# of expected salt savings per year. Or 8 Costco bags I don't have to haul around.

I plan to monitor water hardness using the Hach kit as each regeneration approaches to see if the new settings are appropriate or if I'm getting significant hardness "bleed through". The Fleck tells me how many gallons are left before the next regeneration, so it will be easy to time the testing.

So if you think your softener is using too much salt or you're concerned you're not getting soft water all the time you might consider getting your geek on and performing a similar tune-up. :D
seawolf21
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Re: water softener for whole house?

Post by seawolf21 »

Chip wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:09 am Resurrecting an old thread....

I just finished a "tune-up" on my relatively new Fleck 5600SXT softener (1 cu ft resin, 32,000 grains). I think the changes I made to softener settings will save nearly 400# of salt per year compared to the initial settings I used. I don't believe there will be a noticeable difference in water quality, though I will be testing it to make sure. I made these changes after reading plenty of threads on the terrylove.com plumbing site.

The first change resulted from getting a serious water hardness testing kit, a Hach 5B (~$25). The water company says my water hardness was 14 gpg (grains per gallon). Testing showed it was 12 gpg. I understand that this number can vary seasonally depending on rainfall, water sourcing, etc., so I will be checking it a few times a year. The Hach kit is good for quite a few tests.

The second change was to reduce the amount of salt used in each regeneration. Apparently, in order to get the "advertised" 32k grains of softening capacity requires using a lot of salt (~20# per cu ft of resin). One can use much less salt per regeneration at the cost of reduced capacity. A "sweet spot" that was recommended was 8#/cu ft, which reduces capacity to 24k grains. Chart here.

This change is made by adjusting the "brine fill" (BF) time on the Fleck. This determines how much water goes back into the brine tank after a regeneration (and therefore what is used in the next regeneration). There is an orifice that controls the flow rate into the tank at .5 gpm. Saturated brine has 3# of salt per gallon. So each minute of brine fill will provide 1.5# of salt for the next regeneration. The BF setting is in integer minutes. I chose 5 minutes, which will provide 7.5# (5 * 1.5#) of salt. This compares to the vendor's recommended setting of 10 minutes, or 15# of salt.

Reducing the salt reduces the capacity of the softener. Interpolating the chart referenced above, I reprogrammed the softener capacity to 23k grains from the original 32k. This only affects the frequency of regeneration.

The third adjustment was to change how often the softener was required to regenerate, even if water usage hasn't been enough to trigger it. The vendor was adamant that regeneration should happen at least every 10 days. Threads on terrylove.com suggest that this is only necessary if the incoming water contains significant amounts of iron. Mine doesn't, so I changed this setting ("Day Override") to 28 days.

The fourth adjustment was to change the reserve capacity setting. This setting causes a regneration to be scheduled before actually running out of soft water. The vendor suggested using a "safety factor" of 20% of capacity, which would have been about 400 gallons of water given the other settings. I changed this to a reserve capacity in gallons, set to 120 gallons ("normal" usage for a 2 person household). I've since determined our average usage at 105 gallons per day.

With all that done, here's how I calculate the salt savings:

Previous settings: With our usage the 10 day override would always happen before a water usage trigger. So the softener would regenerate 36.5 times per year (365 days/10). At 15# of salt per regeneration, that's 548# of salt.

New settings: 23k capacity/12 gpg = 1917 gallons of soft water per regeneration. [(1917 gals - 120/2 gal reserve)/105 gpd usage) = 17.7 days per regeneration. 7.5# *365/17.7 = 155# salt.

548 - 155 = 393# of expected salt savings per year. Or 8 Costco bags I don't have to haul around.

I plan to monitor water hardness using the Hach kit as each regeneration approaches to see if the new settings are appropriate or if I'm getting significant hardness "bleed through". The Fleck tells me how many gallons are left before the next regeneration, so it will be easy to time the testing.

So if you think your softener is using too much salt or you're concerned you're not getting soft water all the time you might consider getting your geek on and performing a similar tune-up. :D
We use 4,000 gallons per month 17 grains. Using a GE 40K grain softener and go thru a 40lb bag a quarter and this is the default setting.
Chip
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Re: water softener for whole house?

Post by Chip »

seawolf21 wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:38 pm We use 4,000 gallons per month 17 grains. Using a GE 40K grain softener and go thru a 40lb bag a quarter and this is the default setting.
That's excellent performance. 4,000 gals x 12 months x 17 gpg = 816k grains. That makes for an efficiency of 5100 grains/lb of salt, which is very high.

My previous softener was also a GE 40k grain softener (GXSH40V; 1.1 cu ft resin). The first page of the manual showed the following efficiency/capacity ratings (items in parentheses are my calcs):

Code: Select all

Grains @ salt dose (salt/cu ft) (grains/lb salt)
11,700 @ 2.3 lbs       (2.1)         (5100)
31,500 @ 8.7 lbs       (7.9)         (3600)
40,000 @ 15.1         (13.7)         (2600)
The GE didn't have nearly as many user-accessible settings as the Fleck. The only option for changing salt efficiency was a "Salt Saver" operating mode, which the manual said would cause it to operate at 4000 grains/lb or better. But that was not the default for mine, though the manual suggested it was a requirement in California.

I was still getting some lime scale when I was using the GE softener. I should have made some adjustments, but didn't have the Hach testing kit to guide me. Plus I was lazy. I think I had the salt saver option turned on, though that should have only affected regeneration frequency if all other settings were correct.

How certain are you of your softened water usage, salt usage and incoming hardness? Do you ever see any lime scale on faucets, glass shower doors, etc.?

For those that are interested, I thought this was a reasonable informative post about softener efficiency and capacity (I did not buy my Fleck from this company).

https://www.aquatell.com/pages/understa ... r-capacity
seawolf21
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Re: water softener for whole house?

Post by seawolf21 »

Chip wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:05 am
seawolf21 wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:38 pm We use 4,000 gallons per month 17 grains. Using a GE 40K grain softener and go thru a 40lb bag a quarter and this is the default setting.
That's excellent performance. 4,000 gals x 12 months x 17 gpg = 816k grains. That makes for an efficiency of 5100 grains/lb of salt, which is very high.

My previous softener was also a GE 40k grain softener (GXSH40V; 1.1 cu ft resin). The first page of the manual showed the following efficiency/capacity ratings (items in parentheses are my calcs):

Code: Select all

Grains @ salt dose (salt/cu ft) (grains/lb salt)
11,700 @ 2.3 lbs       (2.1)         (5100)
31,500 @ 8.7 lbs       (7.9)         (3600)
40,000 @ 15.1         (13.7)         (2600)
The GE didn't have nearly as many user-accessible settings as the Fleck. The only option for changing salt efficiency was a "Salt Saver" operating mode, which the manual said would cause it to operate at 4000 grains/lb or better. But that was not the default for mine, though the manual suggested it was a requirement in California.

I was still getting some lime scale when I was using the GE softener. I should have made some adjustments, but didn't have the Hach testing kit to guide me. Plus I was lazy. I think I had the salt saver option turned on, though that should have only affected regeneration frequency if all other settings were correct.

How certain are you of your softened water usage, salt usage and incoming hardness? Do you ever see any lime scale on faucets, glass shower doors, etc.?

For those that are interested, I thought this was a reasonable informative post about softener efficiency and capacity (I did not buy my Fleck from this company).

https://www.aquatell.com/pages/understa ... r-capacity
I use Hach as well to test. Water department states hardness is 14 grains. Which turns out to be false as water feels hard (soap doesn't lather as well as beginning of cycle). GE definitely could be better by providing more more settings for those who want to tinker with it.
Chip
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Re: water softener for whole house?

Post by Chip »

seawolf21 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:21 pm I use Hach as well to test. Water department states hardness is 14 grains. Which turns out to be false as water feels hard (soap doesn't lather as well as beginning of cycle). GE definitely could be better by providing more more settings for those who want to tinker with it.
I wonder if that's the seasonal variability I mentioned earlier. In addition to natural variability, my water department told me quite a while ago that they used additional wells in summer months that raised hardness from 11 to 14 when compared with winter. Supposedly they quit using those wells at all but I do have my single test at 12 gpg.

Have you done any seasonal testing on incoming water?
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