Anyone buying cars right now?

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
JackoC
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by JackoC »

Hogan773 wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:20 pm
DiploInvestor wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:13 am Recently bought a new, loaded Toyota Highlander XSE at MSRP. Had a connection to a dealer through a family member, or else that wouldn’t have happened. A buddy just got a new Telluride at MSRP as well. Great deal, though I passed on those because of the markup and the glass issues. Deals (meaning at-MSRP sales) are out there, but they take patience. I have little patience and didn’t have much time to wait (long story), so I feel I got lucky. I just wish I had held onto my 2012 Nissan Quest minivan in perfect shape with 28,000 miles and not sold it in summer 2020, but that’s water under the bridge…
It is sad when people say they got a "deal" by being ALLOWED TO PAY THE FULL STATED LIST PRICE FOR THE CAR! Right there that shows how goofy things are right now. Again putting aside special cars like Ferraris or limited run vehicles, nobody in their right mind in the past would have said PHEW, I WAS ABLE TO PAY FULL LISTED PRICE FOR THE CAR - WHAT A DEAL I GOT! I mean for me it was always whether I could actually get BELOW INVOICE, let alone MSRP.

It can't continue this way forever. It just can't.
I don't entirely disagree. It's likely dealing prices eventually go back to something more like the (wide, very make/model and time dependent) range of previously than now's situation v MSRP. Although, this could be accompanied by 'transient' inflation increasing MSRP's in next few years to offset a good deal of the apparent normalization. Then looking a little further there's broader electrification. Some people revel in this prospect, and I'd prefer other people be happy on things that don't directly matter to me one way or another, which this development would not if it had no or a guaranteed positive effect on car prices. But it might not be positive from consumer standpoint. It depends exactly how the web of EV subsidies, mandates, actual underlying production cost of these cars and consumer enthusiasm for them all interact as they are scaled up. There might also end up being excess demand for a declining % of ICE cars which 'the market' won't correct for via increased production, due to mandates. And I guess I will continue to prefer ICE. I'm not giving this as a reason to pay MSRP today if you believe you'll get 8% off in a few months, the uncertainty I'm speaking of will play out over years. Just saying, as time goes by there are multiple uncertainties about both actual vehicle prices and relationship to 'MSRP'.

On cars going for MSRP in past I agree that's been unusual, figures might be found to prove it. Although it's a more widespread thing than Ferrari level (where it can be below or above MSRP all depending). I have a 2018 M2 (I'm seeking now to trade, trade in prices very nice compared to last year, new BMW prices not so nice). That's far from a super car (though a fairly serious car at low speed acceleration and cornering) but it was difficult to get the 'original' M2 below MSRP from introduction till in 2018 it became known 2019's would have 45 more hp, I got ~5% off MSRP, nothing to trumpet from the mountaintop normally but paying only MSRP was relatively good for that car for quite awhile. They don't make a large number though I'm not sure 'limited edition'. Anyway I agree there's a reason that paying MSRP has long been considered 'paying up' in the broad car market, before recently.
hahabye
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by hahabye »

Buy a Tesla and you won't feel bad about paying MSRP because EVERYONE pays MSRP for a Tesla. Zero negotiating lol!
Topic Author
Hogan773
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by Hogan773 »

hahabye wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:26 pm Buy a Tesla and you won't feel bad about paying MSRP because EVERYONE pays MSRP for a Tesla. Zero negotiating lol!
I know

I think Saturn used to try this marketing strategy as well
smalliebigs
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by smalliebigs »

Just went to a Chevy and GMC dealership a few days ago asking for lease prices. Quoted me $400 and 500/month for 10k miles for a pickup truck. I knew it was bad, but not THAT bad. It's pretty much double what my lease payments are for my 2019 truck.

I think the sensible thing to do now is to just buy out my vehicle. The market price is $10k more than the residual, which is nice.
denovo
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by denovo »

Hogan773 wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:00 pm I have been eyeing getting a new car for past few years to replace one of ours which is now 10 yrs old. While I am always seemingly waiting to see what is about to come out, right now I have been looking at some Acura SUVs either MDX or RDX. This dumb chip shortage thing is killing my buying vibe. The sales guy told me they are getting $5k-$10k OVER STICKER right now as it is a hot model and demand is high. My Boglehead DNA will not allow me to pay MORE than sticker for a car. In fact, I have always prided myself on playing the negotiation game really hard to get a number right around INVOICE and not sticker.

Anyone in the business or in the know that has a sense of when new car inventories will come back to more normal? We talking later this fall or will it be a whole 'nother year? I know it WILL move back to normal markets and won't be this way forever.
If you're talking to a 'salesman' at the dealership, you are already losing. Also, the invoice price is not a good reference. I notice many of the people complaining about not getting good deals didn't say what method they were using, and it doesn't sound like they were doing this.

viewtopic.php?t=124638

Look at the newest comments. They are plenty of people, including me, who got good deals during COVID.
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln
DiploInvestor
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by DiploInvestor »

Hogan773 wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:20 pm
DiploInvestor wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:13 am Recently bought a new, loaded Toyota Highlander XSE at MSRP. Had a connection to a dealer through a family member, or else that wouldn’t have happened. A buddy just got a new Telluride at MSRP as well. Great deal, though I passed on those because of the markup and the glass issues. Deals (meaning at-MSRP sales) are out there, but they take patience. I have little patience and didn’t have much time to wait (long story), so I feel I got lucky. I just wish I had held onto my 2012 Nissan Quest minivan in perfect shape with 28,000 miles and not sold it in summer 2020, but that’s water under the bridge…
It is sad when people say they got a "deal" by being ALLOWED TO PAY THE FULL STATED LIST PRICE FOR THE CAR! Right there that shows how goofy things are right now. Again putting aside special cars like Ferraris or limited run vehicles, nobody in their right mind in the past would have said PHEW, I WAS ABLE TO PAY FULL LISTED PRICE FOR THE CAR - WHAT A DEAL I GOT! I mean for me it was always whether I could actually get BELOW INVOICE, let alone MSRP.

It can't continue this way forever. It just can't. Dealers right now have the big balls I guess because they actually don't have much inventory, so they look at each unit as a scarce resource and want to maximize profit on it. In normal times when there are 4 identical Black Camry XLEs in Grey Leather already sitting on the lot, 3 more in transit arriving next Tuesday, and you know that 6 other Toyota dealers in a 25 mile radius also have similar levels of inventory, well, then the focus is on selling A CAR at a price that makes you a little profit. Sure maybe you get lucky and find a sucker willing to take a "deal" at $500 off sticker, but if you have a second buyer same day willing to pay you such that you are still making $500 on the sale, moving another unit for the month, and getting some volume-based incentives in the background as well, then you aren't likely to want that buyer to take a drive 6 miles down the road and buy from the next Toyota dealer.

Jeez I can't wait till we get back to "normal" haha. Chaps me when people are praying they can avoid paying the dealer some extra bribe money to allow them to buy a freakin car!
I completely agree with you. It kills me ro pay MSRP for a new car. I didn't even want a new car - it's just that the used ones were practically the same price. For our first new car buying experience in 10 years, an experience that should have been fun was frustrating, but I was under the gun. The alternative was to waste more money renting while searching out better deals and looking further away - and rental prices are ridiculous too. We had the bad luck to need a car at this particular time, but did about as well as we could given the circumstances.
"History doesn’t repeat itself, but it often rhymes." -- Mark Twain // "If you have a garden and a library, you have everything you need." — Cicero
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WingsFan4Life
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by WingsFan4Life »

I'm about to buy a 2003 Subaru WRX :D
Valuethinker
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by Valuethinker »

tibbitts wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 12:38 pm
stoptothink wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 11:53 am
tibbitts wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 11:49 am
squirm wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:33 am People are paying MSRP because, let's face it, lots of people are flush with money via the stock market. Paying for a vehicle with stock market gains is very different then paying with money from your daily job.
I'd say that Bogleheads have somewhat of a skewed view of how many people even invest in equities outside of maybe a retirement program they effectively have no access to, so I'm not sure that's a significant factor in the average person deciding if they want to make the payments on a new car. I'd guess the amount of the monthly payment is the most important factor for most buyers - many probably don't even give much consideration to the total price.
Best I can discern, about 1/3 of households have some form of taxable account and 38% of households do not invest in the market in any capacity https://www.sec.gov/spotlight/fixed-inc ... 040918.pdf. I have to say, that totally surprised me; there is no way close to 1/3 of the households in my social circle have a non-work investment account.
That surprises me by being higher than I'd have thought too. Still I'd maintain that that's probably a very minor factor in spending for new cars.
I think the representative of one's own peer group is highly skewed - on just about anything.

I do think a lot of people have a "play" account in stocks. Their investments consist of punts.

A very wise man told me a long time ago that I was selling when I had made a quick profit on investments, and holding on for losers to recover - and that successful investing is the exact opposite.

(a modification of that is that if, the reason you bought something no longer pertains, you should sell it. i.e. if you own Royal Bank of Scotland and we hit a global financial crisis, then you should be selling. New information has come to light which will permanently change your opinion of an investment. An extreme example, to be sure, but one to refer to).

That was my speculation account.

Eventually this led me on to index funds & buy-and-hold investing.

So, particularly given RobinHood, I think there's probably an awful lot of people out there who have a non retirement account, and investmoney that way. They may well be spending more money on consumer durables, in line with profits on stock market investments. (Although most would not have the account balance for a new car).

As to retirement accounts - well, it's all in the personal balance sheet, isn't it?

So if people feel richer due to a fatter retirement account, they may mentally "account for it" by buying a more expensive consumer durable. I am not immune to that tendency, to be sure.
Topic Author
Hogan773
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by Hogan773 »

DiploInvestor wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 2:44 am
Hogan773 wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:20 pm
DiploInvestor wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:13 am Recently bought a new, loaded Toyota Highlander XSE at MSRP. Had a connection to a dealer through a family member, or else that wouldn’t have happened. A buddy just got a new Telluride at MSRP as well. Great deal, though I passed on those because of the markup and the glass issues. Deals (meaning at-MSRP sales) are out there, but they take patience. I have little patience and didn’t have much time to wait (long story), so I feel I got lucky. I just wish I had held onto my 2012 Nissan Quest minivan in perfect shape with 28,000 miles and not sold it in summer 2020, but that’s water under the bridge…
It is sad when people say they got a "deal" by being ALLOWED TO PAY THE FULL STATED LIST PRICE FOR THE CAR! Right there that shows how goofy things are right now. Again putting aside special cars like Ferraris or limited run vehicles, nobody in their right mind in the past would have said PHEW, I WAS ABLE TO PAY FULL LISTED PRICE FOR THE CAR - WHAT A DEAL I GOT! I mean for me it was always whether I could actually get BELOW INVOICE, let alone MSRP.

It can't continue this way forever. It just can't. Dealers right now have the big balls I guess because they actually don't have much inventory, so they look at each unit as a scarce resource and want to maximize profit on it. In normal times when there are 4 identical Black Camry XLEs in Grey Leather already sitting on the lot, 3 more in transit arriving next Tuesday, and you know that 6 other Toyota dealers in a 25 mile radius also have similar levels of inventory, well, then the focus is on selling A CAR at a price that makes you a little profit. Sure maybe you get lucky and find a sucker willing to take a "deal" at $500 off sticker, but if you have a second buyer same day willing to pay you such that you are still making $500 on the sale, moving another unit for the month, and getting some volume-based incentives in the background as well, then you aren't likely to want that buyer to take a drive 6 miles down the road and buy from the next Toyota dealer.

Jeez I can't wait till we get back to "normal" haha. Chaps me when people are praying they can avoid paying the dealer some extra bribe money to allow them to buy a freakin car!
I completely agree with you. It kills me ro pay MSRP for a new car. I didn't even want a new car - it's just that the used ones were practically the same price. For our first new car buying experience in 10 years, an experience that should have been fun was frustrating, but I was under the gun. The alternative was to waste more money renting while searching out better deals and looking further away - and rental prices are ridiculous too. We had the bad luck to need a car at this particular time, but did about as well as we could given the circumstances.
I hear you! And to be clear from my post, I wasn't saying or implying that YOU are "sad" or lame for buying a car in this market. I was saying that it is just really sad for all of us consumers who like having a little negotiating leverage on our side, where someone would be relieved that they got their car at full sticker price and didn't get robbed by being forced to pay MORE than the full stated price of the car.

Someone else mentioned this as well, but I wouldn't be surprised if this situation continues, and it appears it will into next year at least, that the manufacturers bake in those robber bonuses by spiking up the MSRP on the vehicles. Honda just did so in a way, but saying they are only building the higher trim line Pilots for a while.

Just another form of inflation I guess
psteinx
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by psteinx »

Tales from the front:

On small Hondas and Toyotas (Civics and Corollas), there is almost ZERO on-the-ground, unsold inventory. Searching Autotrader is not very fruitful, as what it shows for particular dealers has only a loose relation to that vehicle being available, on the ground. Auto dealers' own websites only slightly better. In both cases, there's a mix of cars that have already been sold/reserved still showing up on websites, and cars that won't arrive at dealers for weeks being pre-listed.

While I haven't executed on any sales, there seems virtually no scope for negotiation on THESE (Civics/Corollas). Dealers seem to want to stick, nominally, to MSRP (without upward "market adjustments"), but they make up for it with dealer prep/admin, and junk add-ons (mud flaps, floormats, etc.). And, unfortunately for me, our state just increased it's allowable doc/admin fees from ~$199 to ~$499, which went into effect this past Saturday. When a dealer told me this, on Friday, I thought it was standard dealer nonsense, but I looked it up, and it appears to be true. :(

Add-ons seem to run $500-1000. It's not clear to me how quickly dealers are raising their doc fees - some seem slower than others. My best case, I think, for a new Civic Hatchback is MSRP + $499 doc fee + $0 junk add-ons, by putting a $500 deposit down now at one particular dealer and waiting a couple weeks or so. So, that puts the price around 102% of MSRP, OTD (taxes in my state are paid separately, directly to the state or the license office.) My mental benchmark for a Honda/Toyota, based on past transactions, for normal times, is around 90% of MSRP. So, current prices are around 12% (actually (102/90) - 1 ~= 13%) above normal. *AND*, one loses selection (multiple trims, in multiple colors, at just about any big dealer you'd visit in normal times), *AND* has to accept delayed delivery.

FWIW, I don't necessarily think the above outline is 100% representative of every make or model. Two different Subaru dealers suggested possible discounts from MSRP of $400-1500 (which seems a little weird, because Imprezas are thin on the ground, too). But anyways, yes, it's possible SOME folks are getting mild discounts on SOME models of SOME makes. But the likelihood of serious negotiation right now on in-demand make/models like Honda Civic and Toyota Corolla seems low. The dealers are dictating the terms, and the best one can do, I think, is find the best terms (incoming model/trim/color closest to target, not too far out on delivery, not too much dealer junk add-ons).

Used looks ugly, too. 2-3 year old cars, with 15-35K miles, asking about 10% below the inflated price (with add-ons) for same model & trim, new. There might be a touch more negotiating room there, and presumably listed used cars are more likely to actually be physically present and for sale, but in general, late-model used seems even less appealing at the moment than marked-up new.
DiploInvestor
Posts: 157
Joined: Sat May 12, 2018 9:26 am

Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by DiploInvestor »

Hogan773 wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 6:00 pm
DiploInvestor wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 2:44 am
Hogan773 wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:20 pm
DiploInvestor wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:13 am Recently bought a new, loaded Toyota Highlander XSE at MSRP. Had a connection to a dealer through a family member, or else that wouldn’t have happened. A buddy just got a new Telluride at MSRP as well. Great deal, though I passed on those because of the markup and the glass issues. Deals (meaning at-MSRP sales) are out there, but they take patience. I have little patience and didn’t have much time to wait (long story), so I feel I got lucky. I just wish I had held onto my 2012 Nissan Quest minivan in perfect shape with 28,000 miles and not sold it in summer 2020, but that’s water under the bridge…
It is sad when people say they got a "deal" by being ALLOWED TO PAY THE FULL STATED LIST PRICE FOR THE CAR! Right there that shows how goofy things are right now. Again putting aside special cars like Ferraris or limited run vehicles, nobody in their right mind in the past would have said PHEW, I WAS ABLE TO PAY FULL LISTED PRICE FOR THE CAR - WHAT A DEAL I GOT! I mean for me it was always whether I could actually get BELOW INVOICE, let alone MSRP.

It can't continue this way forever. It just can't. Dealers right now have the big balls I guess because they actually don't have much inventory, so they look at each unit as a scarce resource and want to maximize profit on it. In normal times when there are 4 identical Black Camry XLEs in Grey Leather already sitting on the lot, 3 more in transit arriving next Tuesday, and you know that 6 other Toyota dealers in a 25 mile radius also have similar levels of inventory, well, then the focus is on selling A CAR at a price that makes you a little profit. Sure maybe you get lucky and find a sucker willing to take a "deal" at $500 off sticker, but if you have a second buyer same day willing to pay you such that you are still making $500 on the sale, moving another unit for the month, and getting some volume-based incentives in the background as well, then you aren't likely to want that buyer to take a drive 6 miles down the road and buy from the next Toyota dealer.

Jeez I can't wait till we get back to "normal" haha. Chaps me when people are praying they can avoid paying the dealer some extra bribe money to allow them to buy a freakin car!
I completely agree with you. It kills me ro pay MSRP for a new car. I didn't even want a new car - it's just that the used ones were practically the same price. For our first new car buying experience in 10 years, an experience that should have been fun was frustrating, but I was under the gun. The alternative was to waste more money renting while searching out better deals and looking further away - and rental prices are ridiculous too. We had the bad luck to need a car at this particular time, but did about as well as we could given the circumstances.
I hear you! And to be clear from my post, I wasn't saying or implying that YOU are "sad" or lame for buying a car in this market. I was saying that it is just really sad for all of us consumers who like having a little negotiating leverage on our side, where someone would be relieved that they got their car at full sticker price and didn't get robbed by being forced to pay MORE than the full stated price of the car.

Someone else mentioned this as well, but I wouldn't be surprised if this situation continues, and it appears it will into next year at least, that the manufacturers bake in those robber bonuses by spiking up the MSRP on the vehicles. Honda just did so in a way, but saying they are only building the higher trim line Pilots for a while.

Just another form of inflation I guess
Definitely a rough time to be a car buyer! Hoping for better times ahead... :arrow: :sharebeer
"History doesn’t repeat itself, but it often rhymes." -- Mark Twain // "If you have a garden and a library, you have everything you need." — Cicero
westcoast
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by westcoast »

Just paid MSRP for a Toyota Rav4 prime two days ago. They are very hard to find here and most dealerships require a deposit to be put on a list to buy one. That was our experience with the dealerships I called expect for one. They had a list of buyers with 50 ahead of us. They asked the usual questions about a trade in and where we were calling from. This dealership was 20 miles from our home. I expected it would be several months before we moved forward on their list. They called us three days after our initial phone call telling me the Rav4 would be there the next day and if we still wanted it they required a $1000 deposit. They car arrived and we picked it up thursday. We think they sold it to us because our trade was Honda Crv with very low milage they could turn very fast.
m@ver1ck
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by m@ver1ck »

Never buying a Toyota again. Both for political reasons - and since they're so behind in the EV race, that they actually tried to sabotage the EV subsidies. They were first with the batteries - and then just say on hybrid tech for 20 years.

Got a VW ID.4 on order. Should arrive Nov/Dec. MSRP.
mrsmitt
Posts: 77
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:14 pm

Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by mrsmitt »

I got a good deal on a lease earlier this year, but now there are literally no good deals on anything but maybe Camaro LT and Jeep Wrangler😭

You can jump through the hoops and do all magic tricks you know, but you are not getting a good deal on a new car finance or lease at this point of time.
denovo wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 9:47 am
Hogan773 wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:00 pm I have been eyeing getting a new car for past few years to replace one of ours which is now 10 yrs old. While I am always seemingly waiting to see what is about to come out, right now I have been looking at some Acura SUVs either MDX or RDX. This dumb chip shortage thing is killing my buying vibe. The sales guy told me they are getting $5k-$10k OVER STICKER right now as it is a hot model and demand is high. My Boglehead DNA will not allow me to pay MORE than sticker for a car. In fact, I have always prided myself on playing the negotiation game really hard to get a number right around INVOICE and not sticker.

Anyone in the business or in the know that has a sense of when new car inventories will come back to more normal? We talking later this fall or will it be a whole 'nother year? I know it WILL move back to normal markets and won't be this way forever.
If you're talking to a 'salesman' at the dealership, you are already losing. Also, the invoice price is not a good reference. I notice many of the people complaining about not getting good deals didn't say what method they were using, and it doesn't sound like they were doing this.

viewtopic.php?t=124638

Look at the newest comments. They are plenty of people, including me, who got good deals during COVID.
mrsmitt
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by mrsmitt »

Wow, you definitely have something against Toyota.

The best part is that after statement like this you are buying VW:))))))) Have you heard about dieselgate??? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswa ... ns_scandal

m@ver1ck wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 1:41 am Never buying a Toyota again. Both for political reasons - and since they're so behind in the EV race, that they actually tried to sabotage the EV subsidies. They were first with the batteries - and then just say on hybrid tech for 20 years.

Got a VW ID.4 on order. Should arrive Nov/Dec. MSRP.
Topic Author
Hogan773
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by Hogan773 »

Totally!
Cutthepinchblog
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by Cutthepinchblog »

Bought a 2021 Hyundai Elantra in July with a $1,500 rebate and another $1,000 off the price. The rebate right now is a little smaller. In my opinion if the car you want still has rebates, you have a chance to get the price down a little more. Technology wise it is hard to beat an Elantra in that segment at that price
m@ver1ck
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by m@ver1ck »

mrsmitt wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 3:46 am Wow, you definitely have something against Toyota.

The best part is that after statement like this you are buying VW:))))))) Have you heard about dieselgate??? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswa ... ns_scandal

m@ver1ck wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 1:41 am Never buying a Toyota again. Both for political reasons - and since they're so behind in the EV race, that they actually tried to sabotage the EV subsidies. They were first with the batteries - and then just say on hybrid tech for 20 years.

Got a VW ID.4 on order. Should arrive Nov/Dec. MSRP.
Diesel gate was long time ago / and they made amends - the ID.4 and their push to electric is a result of those amends. Also included the multi billion dollar investment in electrical charging infra in the US.

Toyota is dead man walking at this point / they had such a head start in battery tech due to their Prius work. And they squandered it on the hydrogen pipe dream.
Valuethinker
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by Valuethinker »

mrsmitt wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 3:46 am Wow, you definitely have something against Toyota.

The best part is that after statement like this you are buying VW:))))))) Have you heard about dieselgate??? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswa ... ns_scandal
Without having a dog in the Toyota fight...

VW paid billions in fines and court settlements. The CEO resigned. They have had a real in-house purge.

There are many similarities with Boeing. Boeing managed to kill several hundred people (at least 2 airliner crashes) due apparently to a culture of "senior management just wants it done". VW the harm is more diffuse. Given what we know about particulate emissions (which were *not* what VW was seeking to control via the bypass software, as I understand it) probably the cost is many many years of life lost due to morbidity and mortality arising from PM2.5 particles (shorter lifespans). However that was a failure of public policy in Europe in particular - the damage in the US was relatively small because the US just doesn't have many diesel cars and other light vehicles. (Besides air pollution rules in places like California, petrol (gasoline) is very cheap in USA, so fuel economy is just not a big issue despite the longer distances driven).

The reality is all the diesel manufacturers were playing (some) games with the tests (& still do, I gather)--whether they were as egregious as VW I don't know (I would imagine not). It's was VW's misfortune to use diesel as the core of its USA marketing strategy. BMW's scepticism of diesels, founded in its expertise in engines and drivetrains, turned out to be right.

We are heading into Round 2 (3?) and the move to Battery Electric Vehicles is quite serious. Although there are still applications where Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles would be more appropriate, the apparent costs of the fuel cells and building the hydrogen network are much greater than the battery route.

VW is trying to get an advantage on that against other world car makers.

Periods of big technology change in an industry are periods where the market leaders are often destroyed by new entrants (Tesla?) and the market comes "to judge both the quick and the dead". We will see some car companies go under, and new brands emerge and thrive. This change in propulsion technology has the same potential to revolutionize the industry as did the Ford Model T.

(I am, by contrast, more than a little sceptical re true Autonomous Vehicles -- I think the underlying problem is incredibly hard to fix except in very defined areas).

Look for companies like Amazon and WalMart, which have core competency in logistics, start to move in the direction of BEVs & perhaps FCVs. Given the mileages per vehicle they do, it will save them money.
Valuethinker
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by Valuethinker »

psteinx wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:51 am Tales from the front:

On small Hondas and Toyotas (Civics and Corollas), there is almost ZERO on-the-ground, unsold inventory. Searching Autotrader is not very fruitful, as what it shows for particular dealers has only a loose relation to that vehicle being available, on the ground. Auto dealers' own websites only slightly better. In both cases, there's a mix of cars that have already been sold/reserved still showing up on websites, and cars that won't arrive at dealers for weeks being pre-listed.

While I haven't executed on any sales, there seems virtually no scope for negotiation on THESE (Civics/Corollas). Dealers seem to want to stick, nominally, to MSRP (without upward "market adjustments"), but they make up for it with dealer prep/admin, and junk add-ons (mud flaps, floormats, etc.). And, unfortunately for me, our state just increased it's allowable doc/admin fees from ~$199 to ~$499, which went into effect this past Saturday. When a dealer told me this, on Friday, I thought it was standard dealer nonsense, but I looked it up, and it appears to be true. :(

Add-ons seem to run $500-1000. It's not clear to me how quickly dealers are raising their doc fees - some seem slower than others. My best case, I think, for a new Civic Hatchback is MSRP + $499 doc fee + $0 junk add-ons, by putting a $500 deposit down now at one particular dealer and waiting a couple weeks or so. So, that puts the price around 102% of MSRP, OTD (taxes in my state are paid separately, directly to the state or the license office.) My mental benchmark for a Honda/Toyota, based on past transactions, for normal times, is around 90% of MSRP. So, current prices are around 12% (actually (102/90) - 1 ~= 13%) above normal. *AND*, one loses selection (multiple trims, in multiple colors, at just about any big dealer you'd visit in normal times), *AND* has to accept delayed delivery.

FWIW, I don't necessarily think the above outline is 100% representative of every make or model. Two different Subaru dealers suggested possible discounts from MSRP of $400-1500 (which seems a little weird, because Imprezas are thin on the ground, too). But anyways, yes, it's possible SOME folks are getting mild discounts on SOME models of SOME makes. But the likelihood of serious negotiation right now on in-demand make/models like Honda Civic and Toyota Corolla seems low. The dealers are dictating the terms, and the best one can do, I think, is find the best terms (incoming model/trim/color closest to target, not too far out on delivery, not too much dealer junk add-ons).

Used looks ugly, too. 2-3 year old cars, with 15-35K miles, asking about 10% below the inflated price (with add-ons) for same model & trim, new. There might be a touch more negotiating room there, and presumably listed used cars are more likely to actually be physically present and for sale, but in general, late-model used seems even less appealing at the moment than marked-up new.
Getting a strong sense that "fixes" to this are 1-2 years out. It will take that long for new chipmaking capacity to come in - and in fact it's some of the older chips that are in short supply - so there's really no way of increasing production of those (almost) and carmakers will have to redesign some components.

The general shortage of used vehicles will therefore also continue as not enough new vehicles (ie future used vehicles for sale) are being made. Ironing this out will be hard.
kleiner
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by kleiner »

Valuethinker wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 9:37 am As to retirement accounts - well, it's all in the personal balance sheet, isn't it?

So if people feel richer due to a fatter retirement account, they may mentally "account for it" by buying a more expensive consumer durable. I am not immune to that tendency, to be sure.
We have over $3M in our retirement accounts and over $2.5M in our after-tax account with no debt. I don't in the least feel guilty about having spent $33k to buy a Honda CR-V earlier this year at MSRP :happy
RobLyons
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by RobLyons »

We are not buying a car right now. We own newer, low mileage Toyotas. ('14 Sienna with 55k miles, '17 Prius with 50k)
I'd give the auto market another year at least before we see some return to a new norm.

My next vehicle may be something like a Tesla model 3 performance. She's looking at an SUV of some sort.
Our retirement accounts are nowhere close to the numbers quoted here but we are both 40 years old and don't need that much to retire on anyways.
"Great parenting sets the foundation for a better world"
RXfiles
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by RXfiles »

TOM1964 wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:55 pm I just paid MSRP for a 2021 Toyota RAV4 Prime. Never paid MSRP before for anything I drove, car or motorcycle, but even with this richly priced car, I paid a deposit in mid-February and got the car at the very end of July. 5 and a half months. I would have waited longer, but would not have paid a dime more.

Get what you want if you can afford it. New cars are lots of fun, and fun is why we are on this planet. Don’t let some Bogleheads lay a guilt trip on you. [Offensive comment removed by Moderator Misenplace.]
How much did you pay OTD? I went to my local Toyota dealer and they quoted me 47k for the base rav4 prime. 50k for the XSE
psteinx
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by psteinx »

As an update to my post above. I ended up going used (a 2016 Buick Verano), detailing that purchase here.

But as of ~9 days ago, around the time I was moving forward on this, I seemed to be having a little more luck on the new side too. Some Civic Hatchbacks were apparently available, at ~$200-500 over MSRP (2 different dealers), that ~$200-500 premium being dealer admin fees. (So, if the price held, I could have truly been OTD at MSRP + $200-500, with sales tax paid separately in my state.) Since I didn't go forward with these, I can't be sure there wouldn't have been other issues, but given that this was based on two different dealers, it was probably ballpark correct.
squirm
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by squirm »

I'm not buying any vehicle now. We'll see how long Jerry let's the music play for.
TOM1964
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by TOM1964 »

RXfiles wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:33 am
TOM1964 wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:55 pm I just paid MSRP for a 2021 Toyota RAV4 Prime. Never paid MSRP before for anything I drove, car or motorcycle, but even with this richly priced car, I paid a deposit in mid-February and got the car at the very end of July. 5 and a half months. I would have waited longer, but would not have paid a dime more.

Get what you want if you can afford it. New cars are lots of fun, and fun is why we are on this planet. Don’t let some Bogleheads lay a guilt trip on you. [Offensive comment removed by Moderator Misenplace.]
How much did you pay OTD? I went to my local Toyota dealer and they quoted me 47k for the base rav4 prime. 50k for the XSE
2021 RAV4 Prime XSE with the Premium Package and Pearl white paint. Loaded, in other words. $52,706.89 includes VT state taxes and fees, $198 doc fee, mud flaps installed, all-weather mats, and rear bumper cover. The "Vehicle Price" was $48,935. MSRP for a RAV4 can't go any higher. 802 Toyota in Berlin, VT.

$50k for an XSE is above MSRP.

I got $1000 back from my power company, plus a free Level 2 charger ($600). I will get $7500 back from Uncle Joe when I do my taxes. I sold a well-used diesel VW for $6K. All in all, not horrifying.
WhiteMaxima
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by WhiteMaxima »

No. I have too many cars and I don't drive offen now.
RXfiles
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by RXfiles »

TOM1964 wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:34 pm
RXfiles wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:33 am
TOM1964 wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:55 pm I just paid MSRP for a 2021 Toyota RAV4 Prime. Never paid MSRP before for anything I drove, car or motorcycle, but even with this richly priced car, I paid a deposit in mid-February and got the car at the very end of July. 5 and a half months. I would have waited longer, but would not have paid a dime more.

Get what you want if you can afford it. New cars are lots of fun, and fun is why we are on this planet. Don’t let some Bogleheads lay a guilt trip on you. [Offensive comment removed by Moderator Misenplace.]
How much did you pay OTD? I went to my local Toyota dealer and they quoted me 47k for the base rav4 prime. 50k for the XSE
2021 RAV4 Prime XSE with the Premium Package and Pearl white paint. Loaded, in other words. $52,706.89 includes VT state taxes and fees, $198 doc fee, mud flaps installed, all-weather mats, and rear bumper cover. The "Vehicle Price" was $48,935. MSRP for a RAV4 can't go any higher. 802 Toyota in Berlin, VT.

$50k for an XSE is above MSRP.

I got $1000 back from my power company, plus a free Level 2 charger ($600). I will get $7500 back from Uncle Joe when I do my taxes. I sold a well-used diesel VW for $6K. All in all, not horrifying.
That's pretty much what I got quoted. It's just so hard for me to justify that when you can get a 2019 with 50k miles for less than half that. Theres no way the difference would ever be made up. Not knocking your purchase just why I haven't pulled the trigger yet.
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by TOM1964 »

No such thing as a 2019 RAV 4 Prime. The first year was 2020, and only a few thousand were imported. Good luck finding one for $20-25k. Send us a link.
RXfiles
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by RXfiles »

TOM1964 wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:55 pm No such thing as a 2019 RAV 4 Prime. The first year was 2020, and only a few thousand were imported. Good luck finding one for $20-25k. Send us a link.
I meant 2019 regular rav 4 vs rav4 prime
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by vfinx »

Financial Times: BMW and Daimler pledge to keep prices high when chip crisis ends.
https://www.ft.com/content/f55a1d96-114 ... 0fbaf57de6

This article is specific to the luxury segment, but I wouldn't be surprised if it carries over to some extent to the more elastic mainstream segment.

As Jay Powell keeps reminding us, "transitory inflation" refers only to the rate of change, and does not imply prices coming back down.
psteinx
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by psteinx »

The car industry is highly competitive, and fragmented, globally.

I doubt manufacturers will be able to sustain unusually high prices/margins, once supply chain issues resolve. If Mercedes charges 20% more than before, others will eat their lunch.
andypanda
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by andypanda »

I looked at the Toyota dealer 2 weeks ago while I was getting my free state inspection and 50k oil change. They had 3 vehicles on the showroom floor instead of the usual dozen.

They didn't have, and didn't offer to order, an Off Road Premium w/KDSS for me and an Avalon Touring for my wife. Things are slow I suppose. They know I wrote a check for our identical 2016s. The guy kept saying, "But we'll give you a lot for your vehicles." Their lot was nearly empty too.

The nearest Lexus dealer doesn't have anything I want and didn't have anything similar in size to the Avalon for my wife.

Okay, we'll keep driving what we have.
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by Valuethinker »

psteinx wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:49 pm The car industry is highly competitive, and fragmented, globally.

I doubt manufacturers will be able to sustain unusually high prices/margins, once supply chain issues resolve. If Mercedes charges 20% more than before, others will eat their lunch.
Component suppliers are much more concentrated -- at least at the Tier 1 level (Lear, Borg Warner, TRX, Magna etc).

Price wars among manufacturers can and will break out once supply chain issues are resolved. However as poster above points out, that doesn't mean prices will come back down to where they were, if input prices are higher.

Say the average car maker makes 6% net margin. They can cut prices by 6% and make no money- -but they can't do that on all models, forever. They can't cut prices by 20% *unless* they can force the whole supply chain to take that pain.
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by Valuethinker »

RobLyons wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:13 am We are not buying a car right now. We own newer, low mileage Toyotas. ('14 Sienna with 55k miles, '17 Prius with 50k)
I'd give the auto market another year at least before we see some return to a new norm.

My next vehicle may be something like a Tesla model 3 performance. She's looking at an SUV of some sort.
Our retirement accounts are nowhere close to the numbers quoted here but we are both 40 years old and don't need that much to retire on anyways.
Everything says wait to buy, if you can.

Likely, in a year's time, supply will have caught up to demand. 1-2 years, anyways.
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by Valuethinker »

kleiner wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:04 am
Valuethinker wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 9:37 am As to retirement accounts - well, it's all in the personal balance sheet, isn't it?

So if people feel richer due to a fatter retirement account, they may mentally "account for it" by buying a more expensive consumer durable. I am not immune to that tendency, to be sure.
We have over $3M in our retirement accounts and over $2.5M in our after-tax account with no debt. I don't in the least feel guilty about having spent $33k to buy a Honda CR-V earlier this year at MSRP :happy
That may simply be an affordability point.

But I think there is also an endowment point.

It's a cognitive error to think that "$20 on $100k isn't very much money". In reality, $20 is totally fungible - $20 on a $40 product is identical to $20 on a $100k product. But of course none of us thinks that way - we are not the consumers depicted in economics textbooks.

We all look (I think) at what your house is worth, what's in our personal balance sheet of financial assets, and base our consumption decisions on that.

So $33k for a car is $33k for a car whether you are worth $5.5m or $550k or $55k. Except in that one could say (and you are, I think) "well I have more than enough money for the rest of my life (or a reasonable expectation of earning same)". In which case spend what you think you want to spend on a car.

(It's probably worth knowing that humans make just about every consumption decision as a reflection of status -- perceived pecking order. If one happened to have a father who, although he had a professional career and was well remunerated, drove 10 year old cars and was generally frugal - and I did - that may have infected you (and it's a good thing). My closest friend in high school? He bought an Alpha Romeo straight out of university (when that seemed unimaginably exotic) - but he came from a quite wealthy family, whereas my father's family had been spending down the wealth for generations.)

Either way, I think my friend bought his car out of one notion of status, and I bought my first car (never) out of a different notion of status. My brother drove a VW Jetta (a money pit, but distinctive in a way a Pontiac Firebird, say, would not have been.

A Volvo in America was a professor's car. In England it's a Sloane Ranger car (think "The Preppy Handbook" but with a more aristocratic air)-- one takes it pheasant shooting with the labrador retrievers). The ultimate status symbol is one so subtle that only a few people get it.

In other words, we are not exactly transparent about how we manifest our quest for status. But it's what drives us. Which shouldn't be surprising - we are a genus of highly social apes, after all))
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by kleiner »

Valuethinker wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:27 pm So $33k for a car is $33k for a car whether you are worth $5.5m or $550k or $55k. Except in that one could say (and you are, I think) "well I have more than enough money for the rest of my life (or a reasonable expectation of earning same)". In which case spend what you think you want to spend on a car.

...

In other words, we are not exactly transparent about how we manifest our quest for status. But it's what drives us. Which shouldn't be surprising - we are a genus of highly social apes, after all))
You bring up some good points with which I mostly agree but I should mention a few additional things that I left out in my original reply.

I typically hold on to cars for 12 to 15 years. The reason I bought this car was that I gave my ten year old Prius to my daughter who needed a reliable and economical commuter car. The point I should have made was that, given how infrequently I buy cars, paying a little extra to get it now was not necessarily a big issue.

One more observation is about how anonymous Hondas are in suburbia nowadays. A Honda CR-V is hardly the car I would buy to get status considering I live in a very well-to-do neighborhood!
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by Gnirk »

Yes, and I was very lucky to find exactly what I wanted. I traded my 2015 (bought in 2014) Lexus RX350 (base model) for a 2021 Lexus RX450H (hybrid model) for about $4,000 less than MSRP, and received high book value on my trade-in; I had checked the value on my car before ever going to the dealer. Of course, what $$ they gave up on the selling price of the new car, they more than made up for with selling price on my trade-in. The salesman told me he already had a buyer for my trade-in, and he did!
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by WhiteMaxima »

I keep my cars until they die. No need new car.
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by RobLyons »

Valuethinker wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:14 pm
RobLyons wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:13 am We are not buying a car right now. We own newer, low mileage Toyotas. ('14 Sienna with 55k miles, '17 Prius with 50k)
I'd give the auto market another year at least before we see some return to a new norm.

My next vehicle may be something like a Tesla model 3 performance. She's looking at an SUV of some sort.
Our retirement accounts are nowhere close to the numbers quoted here but we are both 40 years old and don't need that much to retire on anyways.
Everything says wait to buy, if you can.

Likely, in a year's time, supply will have caught up to demand. 1-2 years, anyways.

Excellent plan.
And this is a long shot but I'm hoping EVs come down more in price as well, and incentives for home charging increase, but that may not come true.
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Watty
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by Watty »

Apparently the flooding from hurricane Ida destroyed a lot of cars which will put even more pressure on both the used and new car markets.
CarFax estimates that at least 212,000 vehicles were lost in the storm. And AIR Worldwide, which estimates insurance industry losses from natural disasters, believes that insurers will cover losses of more than 250,000 vehicles from Ida.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/15/business ... index.html
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by mrsmitt »

Dieselgate had happen in 2015 with major developments in 2019 and 2020… now define “long time ago”.

“… they made amends”. Businesses do not make amends, VW was penalized by the US regulator and had to deal with PR nightmare. Similar to BP with their flashy PR campaign with a green sun logo. VW PR did the same move by going from the worst polluter to eco friendly image. I can see that this works great:) Did you know that VW only PLANS to sell 50% of electric vehicles by 2030? If 6 years ago from start of the scandal is long time ago for you then using your own metric 9 years must be an eternity.

VW didn’t invest $2B in the US charging infrastructure. They had plans to do so in between 2017-2026 and this year they announced that they are looking for a co-investor that is ready to invest $1B into this…
https://www.reuters.com/technology/volk ... 021-07-06/

It is ridiculous to glorify one scammy company that was punished for lying to regulators and consumers not that long ago and villainize another for choosing a different strategy that for your information was amended earlier this year https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/19/2239 ... ept-subaru

Just stop jumping from one extreme to another and enjoy your new car.
m@ver1ck wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:46 pm
mrsmitt wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 3:46 am Wow, you definitely have something against Toyota.

The best part is that after statement like this you are buying VW:))))))) Have you heard about dieselgate??? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswa ... ns_scandal

m@ver1ck wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 1:41 am Never buying a Toyota again. Both for political reasons - and since they're so behind in the EV race, that they actually tried to sabotage the EV subsidies. They were first with the batteries - and then just say on hybrid tech for 20 years.

Got a VW ID.4 on order. Should arrive Nov/Dec. MSRP.
Diesel gate was long time ago / and they made amends - the ID.4 and their push to electric is a result of those amends. Also included the multi billion dollar investment in electrical charging infra in the US.

Toyota is dead man walking at this point / they had such a head start in battery tech due to their Prius work. And they squandered it on the hydrogen pipe dream.
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by mrsmitt »

We probably saw the same documentary on diselgate.

I would be not so fast to jump into conclusion that VW has changed. It is extremely hard to change the corporate culture in big organizations. VW is the biggest auto manufacturer in the world. The organization is huge and corrupt. Keep in mind that VW was penalized by regulators and all their actions were aimed at mitigating penalties and negative PR.

No only VW is trying to get ahead of the competition. It is a free market after all. Various companies shave different strategies and I absolutely agree that there is a major disruption in auto industry right now due to new technologies and regulations.

PS I am not a fanboy of Toyota or any other brand. Competition will intensify and likely new leaders will emerge in auto industry. It is just silly how some fanboys emerge to glorify some really corrupt organizations and vialnize the other for choosing a different strategy.
Valuethinker wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:15 am
mrsmitt wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 3:46 am Wow, you definitely have something against Toyota.

The best part is that after statement like this you are buying VW:))))))) Have you heard about dieselgate??? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswa ... ns_scandal
Without having a dog in the Toyota fight...

VW paid billions in fines and court settlements. The CEO resigned. They have had a real in-house purge.

There are many similarities with Boeing. Boeing managed to kill several hundred people (at least 2 airliner crashes) due apparently to a culture of "senior management just wants it done". VW the harm is more diffuse. Given what we know about particulate emissions (which were *not* what VW was seeking to control via the bypass software, as I understand it) probably the cost is many many years of life lost due to morbidity and mortality arising from PM2.5 particles (shorter lifespans). However that was a failure of public policy in Europe in particular - the damage in the US was relatively small because the US just doesn't have many diesel cars and other light vehicles. (Besides air pollution rules in places like California, petrol (gasoline) is very cheap in USA, so fuel economy is just not a big issue despite the longer distances driven).

The reality is all the diesel manufacturers were playing (some) games with the tests (& still do, I gather)--whether they were as egregious as VW I don't know (I would imagine not). It's was VW's misfortune to use diesel as the core of its USA marketing strategy. BMW's scepticism of diesels, founded in its expertise in engines and drivetrains, turned out to be right.

We are heading into Round 2 (3?) and the move to Battery Electric Vehicles is quite serious. Although there are still applications where Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles would be more appropriate, the apparent costs of the fuel cells and building the hydrogen network are much greater than the battery route.

VW is trying to get an advantage on that against other world car makers.

Periods of big technology change in an industry are periods where the market leaders are often destroyed by new entrants (Tesla?) and the market comes "to judge both the quick and the dead". We will see some car companies go under, and new brands emerge and thrive. This change in propulsion technology has the same potential to revolutionize the industry as did the Ford Model T.

(I am, by contrast, more than a little sceptical re true Autonomous Vehicles -- I think the underlying problem is incredibly hard to fix except in very defined areas).

Look for companies like Amazon and WalMart, which have core competency in logistics, start to move in the direction of BEVs & perhaps FCVs. Given the mileages per vehicle they do, it will save them money.
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by Valuethinker »

mrsmitt wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:37 am We probably saw the same documentary on diselgate.

I would be not so fast to jump into conclusion that VW has changed. It is extremely hard to change the corporate culture in big organizations. VW is the biggest auto manufacturer in the world. The organization is huge and corrupt. Keep in mind that VW was penalized by regulators and all their actions were aimed at mitigating penalties and negative PR.
The documentary I saw (and tbh I wasn't really thinking of that documentary - at least the one I saw on Netflix was pretty poor) but also press coverage was clear about Piech and his tendency to drive results in his subordinates.

I'd say the damage to VW was so colossal that it would make their risk managers think twice. Culture change in terms of corporate risk aversion.

The new CEO is really trying to get ahead of the move towards EVs. Whether they will succeed is an open question, but they are spending huge effort and money trying to do it.
No only VW is trying to get ahead of the competition. It is a free market after all. Various companies shave different strategies and I absolutely agree that there is a major disruption in auto industry right now due to new technologies and regulations.

PS I am not a fanboy of Toyota or any other brand. Competition will intensify and likely new leaders will emerge in auto industry. It is just silly how some fanboys emerge to glorify some really corrupt organizations and vialnize the other for choosing a different strategy.
None of this is surprising if you have ever read Clay Christensen about disruptive innovation. The market incumbents and their customers (and the trade media etc) are in this mutual love-in, which allows new competitors (with initially inferior products) to enter.

In my world, there were plenty of people prepared to defend IBM & IBM mainframes to the death. There was a similar phenomenon with DEC. IBM was extorting its customers - just huge profit margins. But there was a whole ecosystem of people who had grown up on OS360/ 370 and believed it was the solution to any corporate IT problem.

BEVs are just going to change the automotive world. Europe has already made that commitment - although politically in Germany there will be more fights to come-- it has been said that what the Banking industry is to Great Britain, the automotive industry is to Germany. I don't imagine Japan or South Korea, say, will be that far behind.

Where this sits with FCVs I don't know. But it's inherently higher emissions to build a hydrogen refilling network (right now) and at the moment, FCVs seem to be significantly more expensive.

I am aware that Japan and Korean manufacturers have made a significant commitment to hydrogen FCVs so this may yet be a dark horse.
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by firebirdparts »

Somewhat off the subject, GM 3 days ago asked everybody who has a Chevy Bolt, all of them, to park 50 feet away from all the other cars. Every single one. I'm sure they're still pretty safe. I've certainly never seen one on fire. But that sure does look strange.

They are still pricey used, from what I can see out there for sale.
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by vfinx »

firebirdparts wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:41 pm Somewhat off the subject, GM 3 days ago asked everybody who has a Chevy Bolt, all of them, to park 50 feet away from all the other cars. Every single one. I'm sure they're still pretty safe. I've certainly never seen one on fire. But that sure does look strange.

They are still pricey used, from what I can see out there for sale.
Actually, I wouldn't be surprised to see an increase in the prices for those, if fully battery replacement ends up being required. A lot of Bolt owners are probably quite happy about this.
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Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by tim1999 »

firebirdparts wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:41 pm Somewhat off the subject, GM 3 days ago asked everybody who has a Chevy Bolt, all of them, to park 50 feet away from all the other cars. Every single one. I'm sure they're still pretty safe. I've certainly never seen one on fire. But that sure does look strange.

They are still pricey used, from what I can see out there for sale.
We have some 2020-2021 Bolts in our company fleet. Since the latest recall/fire risk announcement was made a few weeks back, the Bolts are all quarantined to a remote part of the parking lot, an empty space between each one, and per the fleet manager, nobody is allowed to touch or drive them for now. I drove one of them earlier this year and didn't like it at all, but I am not really sold on EV's for my personal situation yet.
tim1999
Posts: 3949
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 7:16 am

Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by tim1999 »

psteinx wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:51 am Tales from the front:

On small Hondas and Toyotas (Civics and Corollas), there is almost ZERO on-the-ground, unsold inventory.
I took my elderly aunt's Corolla for routine service yesterday at a large Toyota dealer in a growing suburban area. They had literally 5 new vehicles on the entire lot. 2 work-truck spec Tacomas, a 2WD Tundra in an unpopular color combo in my area, a Corolla hatchback, and a Highlander. No cars in the showroom, just empty.
rockstar
Posts: 2057
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:51 pm

Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by rockstar »

tim1999 wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:15 pm
psteinx wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:51 am Tales from the front:

On small Hondas and Toyotas (Civics and Corollas), there is almost ZERO on-the-ground, unsold inventory.
I took my elderly aunt's Corolla for routine service yesterday at a large Toyota dealer in a growing suburban area. They had literally 5 new vehicles on the entire lot. 2 work-truck spec Tacomas, a 2WD Tundra in an unpopular color combo in my area, a Corolla hatchback, and a Highlander. No cars in the showroom, just empty.
One of my friends just purchased a 4Runner. She had to wait a month for it. But she didn't pay more than MSRP. I think Toyota isn't gouging customers as much as other manufacturers such as Kia.
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Tubes
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Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:33 am

Re: Anyone buying cars right now?

Post by Tubes »

rockstar wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:33 pm One of my friends just purchased a 4Runner. She had to wait a month for it. But she didn't pay more than MSRP. I think Toyota isn't gouging customers as much as other manufacturers such as Kia.
Kia? Really? Wow, that's a change of events.

Maybe the dealers all need to pay for the signage upgrade due to the new logo.
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