Refinance Mega Thread

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tj
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by tj »

MichaelAZ wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:42 pm
presto987 wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:28 pm
986racer wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 3:56 pm If I had a high rate already (let's say 4%), is there a reason I shouldn't take a lot of credits and refinance to 3.875, then take a lot more credits and refinance to 3.75, etc? It seems that I could probably pay off a good portion of my mortgage by continually taking these credits.

For my actual situation, I'm anticipating moving for work reasons in a year. Shouldn't I just refinance into whatever is the least out of pocket costs over the following year (e.g., 12 monthly payments - upfront credit)?
Absolutely. I’ve refi’d 3 times over the last year and made around $29k in profit via lender credits (after all costs in D+E and current lender payoff fees). Once with Better and twice with LoanDepot.

This doesn’t even include any Amex offers, as I missed that whole train last year and just finished another refi before this year’s Amex offers came out.

I started with a 7y ARM at 2.5%, refi’d to a 30-year at 2.625%, then a 25-year at 3.125%, then a 5y ARM at 2.5%. So I’m back paying the same rate that I started with and paid a little extra in the interim, but nowhere near what I gained through lender credit.

The most interesting refi was when I went from 2.625 to 3.125. Lenders don’t normally allow you to do that, but I was able to get around it by changing my term.
Very impressive! How did you receive the lender credits --- as cash-out or as paydown of existing principle? The $2K limit on payment to borrower in non-cash-out is a hurdle I know we need to strategize around.
Can you use excess lender credit for principal reduction? Easy equity! :mrgreen:
LiarsDice
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by LiarsDice »

Big thanks to this thread, think I lucked out with my locked in rate that's conditionally approved and waiting on appraisal. All of this in less than two days!

Followed the advice and went to Bankrate. Provided a screenshot of Better at 30y/2.5% no points and the LO with my Better application was able to match. Completed all tasks on 7/19, feeling good about the process and how smooth its going.

Wake up 7/20 and notice Bankrate is showing 2.375% no points. :o Immediately screen shot the rate and pass it along to my LO. He replies back about an hour later and was able to "pull some strings" and got me in at 2.375%, no points, $1,754 "loan costs" and $1,669 in lender credits! On top of that I got my Amex card number request via Tasks (I never used any Amex URL).

I also shopped Radian and while it would have been a net ~$100 cheaper (settlement fee was the same $450) I've pushed my luck far enough and am ready to cash out, no pun intended. Email reply from Radian if you're curious:
We are no longer an approved title company for Better Mortgage and must refer you back to Better. Better Mortgage management has ended the relationship with RSS. Please note that you would probably get a lower fee using Better’s own title company. We are working on clearing our pipeline and completing any existing orders.


If you wish to have this transaction completed by Radian let Better know.
This is my second refinance this year. The service thus far has been excellent as has the UI for tasks. Getting competing LE and knocking on Better's door seems to be the way to go. I did get three other LE's but no one was able to come close, including Loan Depot, my current lender.

This thread is a gold mine for those with a little luck and a bit of effort. :sharebeer
Last edited by LiarsDice on Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
kmanjir
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by kmanjir »

dks05c wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:48 pm I got a title quote from Radian today and the settlement fee is $525 compared to $450 just two months. Has anyone else noticed the jump in cost?
Same here, the Radian quotes are not as competitive as they used to be (based on a quote I received recently versus what I have seen in this thread previously).
kmanjir
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by kmanjir »

bgh11 wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:00 pm
elle wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:54 pm
kmanjir wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:16 pm With the ongoing glut of low rates, thought I'd throw my hat in the ring again. :)

This time I decided to shop around for some competing offers for title services and found one who is providing lower costs than the one the lender is connected with. The lender (Better) has said that I can go ahead with the other company.

My question: As I have not done this before, what are the next steps? Do I now need to manage the connection between the new title company and Better? Or does Better take over working with them, and I just give them the contact information?

Thanks!
probably a silly question but how do i even go about finding a company that does title services to get quotes?
Email the LO and escrow officer (EO) at the same time to introduce or connect them together. Email LO a few days later to make sure there is no problem for him/her to connect with the EO.
You can google for title companies in your area. Hopefully, you can get quotes from their websites but best to confirm quote with a real EO by email in writing.
In addition to bgh11's advice above, here are some title services companies that I have seen mentioned in this thread from time to time. You can use them as a starting point. You would go to their websites and either use their online calculators to generate a quote (if this option is available) or find their contact information and ask for a quote. If/when you get a quote you like and want to proceed with, verify that your lender is able to work with them, and then follow bgh11's advice above.
  • Radian
  • SolidiFi
  • Title Forward
  • Amrock
  • Fidelity National Title
elle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by elle »

truenyer wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:12 pm
elle wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:58 pm I spoke with 2 LO and they both said I have to have a LE for them to match. No screenshots.
Yes this what people seem to be confusing. Bankrate is an aggregator, not a lender.

Better will match THEIR OWN advertised rate on bankrate with a screenshot.

Any lender will require an actual Loan Estimate to even consider matching another lender’s offer.
Ahhh! Thank you for pointing out the nuance that I missed previously about matching their own rate. Just sent the screenshot and will hear back tomorrow. Fingers crossed.
presto987
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by presto987 »

tj wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:47 pm
MichaelAZ wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:42 pm
presto987 wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:28 pm
986racer wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 3:56 pm If I had a high rate already (let's say 4%), is there a reason I shouldn't take a lot of credits and refinance to 3.875, then take a lot more credits and refinance to 3.75, etc? It seems that I could probably pay off a good portion of my mortgage by continually taking these credits.

For my actual situation, I'm anticipating moving for work reasons in a year. Shouldn't I just refinance into whatever is the least out of pocket costs over the following year (e.g., 12 monthly payments - upfront credit)?
Absolutely. I’ve refi’d 3 times over the last year and made around $29k in profit via lender credits (after all costs in D+E and current lender payoff fees). Once with Better and twice with LoanDepot.

This doesn’t even include any Amex offers, as I missed that whole train last year and just finished another refi before this year’s Amex offers came out.

I started with a 7y ARM at 2.5%, refi’d to a 30-year at 2.625%, then a 25-year at 3.125%, then a 5y ARM at 2.5%. So I’m back paying the same rate that I started with and paid a little extra in the interim, but nowhere near what I gained through lender credit.

The most interesting refi was when I went from 2.625 to 3.125. Lenders don’t normally allow you to do that, but I was able to get around it by changing my term.
Very impressive! How did you receive the lender credits --- as cash-out or as paydown of existing principle? The $2K limit on payment to borrower in non-cash-out is a hurdle I know we need to strategize around.
Can you use excess lender credit for principal reduction? Easy equity! :mrgreen:
I've talked to quite a few lenders, and most are not comfortable offering lender credits that exceed the closing costs.

Better Mortgage is an exception in that they have a $5k limit on lender credit, and they seem to allow you to go that high regardless of your closing costs. When I refi'd with them, I maxed out the lender credit, and my total costs including prepaids (I didn't do escrow) were around $1200. So the net credit was -3800. The way this worked is that I got a check for $1900 at closing, and they reduced the loan amount around $1900 below the payoff amount, which was essentially like a principal reduction.

My other two refis were with LoanDepot. Their rate sheets go really high on lender credit, but they don't allow you to take lender credits in excess of your closing costs (they are OK with a modest amount of excess lender credit, like up to $1000).

With LD, the way I was able to make use of the lender credits was by applying them to prepaids and escrow. I intentionally closed both refis near the beginning of the month to maximize prepaid interest. The first refi with them was in December, which meant that half my year's property taxes would be picked up as a prepaid and the other half in escrow. I was able to close my escrow account upon request several months into the loan. The second refi with them was in July, so there was no prepaid property tax, but they picked up 7 months of taxes in escrow. My insurance policy was also due in July, so a full year's worth of insurance was picked up as a prepaid (although the amount was reduced via an "aggregate adjustment").

Essentially if you time things right, you may be able to consume enough lender credit to cover a year's worth of property taxes and a month's worth of interest. In both cases, I also had a few hundred dollars of extra credit, which was applied as a combination of cash to me at closing and a principal reduction.

A lot of lenders told me "you can't be paid to take a loan", and basically said that this was impossible, not allowed, illegal, etc. Others said they were OK with it initially but ultimately didn't allow me to go as high on the lender credit as verbally promised. For example, one lender said that I could take lender credit that exceeded my closing costs by $3500: $2000 would be cash to me as closing, and $1500 would be a principal reduction. But at the last minute, he said that management wouldn't allow it.

Related to the last point, be aware that lenders face a penalty if you pay off the mortgage within around 6 months. With the massive lender credits I got with LD, I decided that I would wait for 6 months, even if another lender would be happy to refi me prior to that. I think that's the ethical thing to do. If you got a smaller lender credit, and you want to refi again within 6 months because rates improved, then I think that's fair game. Certainly it's fair game if the same lender is happy to refi you again, like Better has been doing in some instances.

Through my research I found out that 6 months isn't really the relevant timeline. I believe it's 120 days from when the loan is sold to Fannie Mae.
Jags4186
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Jags4186 »

dks05c wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:32 pm Better just added one year of prepaid for Home Insurance because my policy renews on October 5th, and they currently expect me to close within 2 months of that (August 5th of later). Anyone have any luck getting something like this removed?

Either that or I hope we can close by August 4th.
Get rid of escrow.
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

Jags4186 wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:12 am
dks05c wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:32 pm Better just added one year of prepaid for Home Insurance because my policy renews on October 5th, and they currently expect me to close within 2 months of that (August 5th of later). Anyone have any luck getting something like this removed?

Either that or I hope we can close by August 4th.
Get rid of escrow.
What dks05c described isn’t escrow. Even without escrow, it’s a Fannie/Freddie thing because it’s due within 60 days. See prior discussion recently in this thread.
pmorgan2020
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by pmorgan2020 »

My current mortgage interest rate is 2.5 on a 30 year 525k loan , I refinanced my previous 4 year old loan about six months ago. Can I do better than this now?
presto987
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by presto987 »

presto987 wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:06 am Through my research I found out that 6 months isn't really the relevant timeline. I believe it's 120 days from when the loan is sold to Fannie Mae.
I just wanted to clarify that 120 days is the timeline for when Fannie/Freddie penalizes the lender who sells them the loan (see link below). If you’re working with a broker or a correspondent lender who doesn’t sell direct to Fannie/Freddie, then they will be subject to their own penalty period imposed by the main lender, which is usually going to be 6 months.

https://selling-guide.fanniemae.com/Sel ... 0Recapture
1andDone
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by 1andDone »

Ugh, looks like rates moved against us today vs. yesterday. Currently at 2.625% 30 year, deciding if it makes sense to move to 10 yr ARM at 2.5% to optimize lender credits. Oh, decisions, decisions...
pmorgan2020
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by pmorgan2020 »

1andDone wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:18 am Ugh, looks like rates moved against us today vs. yesterday. Currently at 2.625% 30 year, deciding if it makes sense to move to 10 yr ARM at 2.5% to optimize lender credits. Oh, decisions, decisions...
Out of curiosity how is 2.5 ARM better than 2.625 30 year? Between 2.5 30 year and 2.5 10 year arm, are there going to be substantial difference in monthly payments?
mervinj7
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by mervinj7 »

pmorgan2020 wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:31 am
1andDone wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:18 am Ugh, looks like rates moved against us today vs. yesterday. Currently at 2.625% 30 year, deciding if it makes sense to move to 10 yr ARM at 2.5% to optimize lender credits. Oh, decisions, decisions...
Out of curiosity how is 2.5 ARM better than 2.625 30 year? Between 2.5 30 year and 2.5 10 year arm, are there going to be substantial difference in monthly payments?
Personally, if the difference was only 0.125% then I would just stick with the 30 year fixed. For your second question a 2.5% 10/1 ARM and 2.5% 30 year fixed would have the exact same monthly payment for the first 10 years.
1andDone
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by 1andDone »

pmorgan2020 wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:31 am
1andDone wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:18 am Ugh, looks like rates moved against us today vs. yesterday. Currently at 2.625% 30 year, deciding if it makes sense to move to 10 yr ARM at 2.5% to optimize lender credits. Oh, decisions, decisions...
Out of curiosity how is 2.5 ARM better than 2.625 30 year? Between 2.5 30 year and 2.5 10 year arm, are there going to be substantial difference in monthly payments?
The monthly payment is only about $18 less, but excess lender credits + AMEX credit is worth almost $4,000. Plus, it's very likely we won't be in this house after ten years anyway.
Jags4186
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Jags4186 »

I just received the following e-mail from Better:
Refinancing just got cheaper. Here’s why.

The Federal Housing Finance Agency (FHFA) announced they’re dropping the 0.5% adverse market fee on refinances. It was initially put in place last August to help offset agency losses created by the pandemic, but after a recent change of hands, the decision was made to remove it. That means even more savings for homeowners looking to replace their mortgage.

The fee tacked on 0.5% to the upfront costs of all conventional refinances backed by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac—two FHFA-run companies that purchase loans from lenders. It was estimated to cost the average homeowner $1400 over the life of their loan. Better Mortgage is proud to be one of the first lenders to implement the change, offering reduced pricing for applicants who lock a rate from July 16th and onward.

With 13 million homeowners already in a position to lower their rate and save, now would be a great time to take advantage of lower loan prices too. Get started by checking out today’s rates, and see how they measure up with your mortgage. If the numbers look good, lock in your new rate easily online. If you’re still on the fence, learn why it can help to lock sooner than later.
I suppose since I locked on 7/10 and closed yesterday I will not be getting a refund. Oh well.
presto987
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by presto987 »

There is hope that you might get a refund. Most likely they will sell the loan to Fannie after August 1, which means that they will not incur the fee, even though they priced the fee into your loan. If they decide to be as customer-friendly as they were last year, they will send you a check.

Other lenders haven't done this, but there is precedent for Better doing it, so fingers crossed.
Money_Badger
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Money_Badger »

It seems like everyone in this thread is getting amazing deals.

I started the process with Better just to see what they can do for me, they quoted me at 2%, so I mentioned that I had seen 1.75% on Bankrate and she seemed to be willing to match that. My problem is the costs, I owe 173K on my current mortgage at 3.5% (refinanced last year). It looks like the new loan would be around 178K and there is just over 3K in "cash to close". (This is a 15 year fixed).

Am I just not being aggressive enough? Although I think it's likely we'll be in the house for another 3 years, that's not guaranteed, so I'm reluctant to increase my loan balance significantly.

Any advice would be appreciated!
MrJedi
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by MrJedi »

I was able to get better to match bankrate screenshot but they used an updated quote from today which moved up vs. yesterday and it was a pretty significant increase for me at least.

Lenderfi instant quote actually improved today for me, so I went ahead and filled out an application to get a proper LE. Maybe Better can match against that. I know people have gotten paid out without problem with the Better Amex offer but I'd prefer not to rely on that credit to beat out a competing offer...maybe get within $500 at least (bird in hand, etc.).
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truenyer
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by truenyer »

Money_Badger wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:09 pm It seems like everyone in this thread is getting amazing deals.

I started the process with Better just to see what they can do for me, they quoted me at 2%, so I mentioned that I had seen 1.75% on Bankrate and she seemed to be willing to match that. My problem is the costs, I owe 173K on my current mortgage at 3.5% (refinanced last year). It looks like the new loan would be around 178K and there is just over 3K in "cash to close". (This is a 15 year fixed).

Am I just not being aggressive enough? Although I think it's likely we'll be in the house for another 3 years, that's not guaranteed, so I'm reluctant to increase my loan balance significantly.

Any advice would be appreciated!
What is your A+B+C+E sum from the Loan Estimate (i.e., closing costs minus pre-paids and escrow)? Is that itself $3k? Does it include any points shown (shouldn't after they match bankrate)? You can get most of that covered by the Amex promo, which might make it worth while, even for 3 years, to come down from 3.5%.
Money_Badger
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Location: Raleigh NC

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Money_Badger »

truenyer wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:12 pm
Money_Badger wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:09 pm It seems like everyone in this thread is getting amazing deals.

I started the process with Better just to see what they can do for me, they quoted me at 2%, so I mentioned that I had seen 1.75% on Bankrate and she seemed to be willing to match that. My problem is the costs, I owe 173K on my current mortgage at 3.5% (refinanced last year). It looks like the new loan would be around 178K and there is just over 3K in "cash to close". (This is a 15 year fixed).

Am I just not being aggressive enough? Although I think it's likely we'll be in the house for another 3 years, that's not guaranteed, so I'm reluctant to increase my loan balance significantly.

Any advice would be appreciated!
What is your A+B+C+E sum from the Loan Estimate (i.e., closing costs minus pre-paids and escrow)? Is that itself $3k? Does it include any points shown (shouldn't after they match bankrate)? You can get most of that covered by the Amex promo, which might make it worth while, even for 3 years, to come down from 3.5%.
ABCE is $5918. Points listed are $4330 (2.43% of loan).
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

Money_Badger wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:22 pm
truenyer wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:12 pm
Money_Badger wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:09 pm It seems like everyone in this thread is getting amazing deals.

I started the process with Better just to see what they can do for me, they quoted me at 2%, so I mentioned that I had seen 1.75% on Bankrate and she seemed to be willing to match that. My problem is the costs, I owe 173K on my current mortgage at 3.5% (refinanced last year). It looks like the new loan would be around 178K and there is just over 3K in "cash to close". (This is a 15 year fixed).

Am I just not being aggressive enough? Although I think it's likely we'll be in the house for another 3 years, that's not guaranteed, so I'm reluctant to increase my loan balance significantly.

Any advice would be appreciated!
What is your A+B+C+E sum from the Loan Estimate (i.e., closing costs minus pre-paids and escrow)? Is that itself $3k? Does it include any points shown (shouldn't after they match bankrate)? You can get most of that covered by the Amex promo, which might make it worth while, even for 3 years, to come down from 3.5%.
ABCE is $5918
How much specifically is in A? When you had them match their Bankrate offer, was that 1.75% at $0 or at a certain cost? If the latter, does it match what is in A?
Money_Badger
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Money_Badger »

BrandonBogle wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:24 pm
Money_Badger wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:22 pm
truenyer wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:12 pm
Money_Badger wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:09 pm It seems like everyone in this thread is getting amazing deals.

I started the process with Better just to see what they can do for me, they quoted me at 2%, so I mentioned that I had seen 1.75% on Bankrate and she seemed to be willing to match that. My problem is the costs, I owe 173K on my current mortgage at 3.5% (refinanced last year). It looks like the new loan would be around 178K and there is just over 3K in "cash to close". (This is a 15 year fixed).

Am I just not being aggressive enough? Although I think it's likely we'll be in the house for another 3 years, that's not guaranteed, so I'm reluctant to increase my loan balance significantly.

Any advice would be appreciated!
What is your A+B+C+E sum from the Loan Estimate (i.e., closing costs minus pre-paids and escrow)? Is that itself $3k? Does it include any points shown (shouldn't after they match bankrate)? You can get most of that covered by the Amex promo, which might make it worth while, even for 3 years, to come down from 3.5%.
ABCE is $5918
How much specifically is in A? When you had them match their Bankrate offer, was that 1.75% at $0 or at a certain cost? If the latter, does it match what is in A?
$4330 is in A. I didn't get far enough for them to actually match the Bankrate offer yet, I was still deciding whether to do a 15 or some other term, currently Bankrate is showing 0.919 points.

How does the Amex promo work?
bws
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by bws »

Money_Badger wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:09 pm It seems like everyone in this thread is getting amazing deals.

I started the process with Better just to see what they can do for me, they quoted me at 2%, so I mentioned that I had seen 1.75% on Bankrate and she seemed to be willing to match that. My problem is the costs, I owe 173K on my current mortgage at 3.5% (refinanced last year). It looks like the new loan would be around 178K and there is just over 3K in "cash to close". (This is a 15 year fixed).

Am I just not being aggressive enough? Although I think it's likely we'll be in the house for another 3 years, that's not guaranteed, so I'm reluctant to increase my loan balance significantly.

Any advice would be appreciated!
I had them match Bankrate a few days ago. At the time Bankrate showed 15yr 1.75 no cost no points. They told me that did not include Title search which for me is about $1100. I moved up to 1.875 to get a bigger credit.

I think you might be better off in that case too to go to 1.875.
livelifealittle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by livelifealittle »

We are purchasing a new build from a builder and won't close until December. Can we refi our current primary in the meantime? It'll bring our rate from 3.25% to 2.625%. I emailed our LO for the new build but he hasn't responded yet.
dfeucht
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by dfeucht »

dks05c wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:32 pm Better just added one year of prepaid for Home Insurance because my policy renews on October 5th, and they currently expect me to close within 2 months of that (August 5th of later). Anyone have any luck getting something like this removed?

Either that or I hope we can close by August 4th.
I had this happen to me despite having no escrow because I pay monthly to my insurance company and they wanted a year paid. I talked to my loan processor and closing agent and was able to sign a hold harmless document essentially where we attest to continue keeping insurance active and Better would not be held liable for any missed payments. They then removed the prepayment.

I assume if you escrow there probably is not much choice.
MrJedi
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by MrJedi »

MrJedi wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:12 pm I was able to get better to match bankrate screenshot but they used an updated quote from today which moved up vs. yesterday and it was a pretty significant increase for me at least.

Lenderfi instant quote actually improved today for me, so I went ahead and filled out an application to get a proper LE. Maybe Better can match against that. I know people have gotten paid out without problem with the Better Amex offer but I'd prefer not to rely on that credit to beat out a competing offer...maybe get within $500 at least (bird in hand, etc.).
Success! Better matched and beat Lenderfi's offer, plus I'll get the $2000 Amex credit. I'll be locking this today, pretty satisfied since last year I was only able to get 30 year 3.375% at no cost, probably due to lower loan balance.

Balance: 120k
Rate: 30 year fixed 3.0% (from 3.375%).
D + E - credits = $200 out of pocket. Amex $2000 credit after close/funding.
MiddleOfTheRoad
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by MiddleOfTheRoad »

livelifealittle wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:26 pm We are purchasing a new build from a builder and won't close until December. Can we refi our current primary in the meantime? It'll bring our rate from 3.25% to 2.625%. I emailed our LO for the new build but he hasn't responded yet.
If you are gonna keep your current house as a rental or second home, now is the time to refi for a lower rate. Once it is no longer your primary residence the rates are significantly higher.

If you are gonna sell it, then maybe refi is too much work for too little gain.

On the mortgage app they do ask if you are doing any other refi. Maybe drop the loan app for the new built and restart after you are done with current home refi.
Ghost2
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Ghost2 »

Quick thoughts?

Current loan:
10 year fixed, 3%, 8 years left, no escrow
$210,000 balance
house worth over $1million (but assessed value $904,000 so I'm using $990,000 as value to avoid appraisal)
credit score over 800

Refi from Better:
15 year fixed, 1.75%, no escrow
$40,000 cash out, so $250,000 loan balance
$3,300 points (1.308%)
$2,000 credit from Amex, about $1,500 fixed closing costs

My goals are to lower monthly payments as my income drops significantly in 1.5 years (change in alimony) OR drop overall interest costs if I'm able to increase my income to replace the alimony. In the interim, I'll be investing the difference in the monthly payments in my Vanguard taxable account. Biggest puzzle is that I don't know how long I'll stay in the house, so I'm also considering 2.5% with $4,500 lender credits (-0.76pts).

I'm about ready to lock. Rates from Quicken, LenderFi, and others on BankRate are worse, so I assume I'm good to go, but your collective wisdom is always appreciated.
User avatar
truenyer
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by truenyer »

Ghost2 wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:20 pm Quick thoughts?

Current loan:
10 year fixed, 3%, 8 years left, no escrow
$210,000 balance
house worth over $1million (but assessed value $904,000 so I'm using $990,000 as value to avoid appraisal)
credit score over 800

Refi from Better:
15 year fixed, 1.75%, no escrow
$40,000 cash out, so $250,000 loan balance
$3,300 points (1.308%)
$2,000 credit from Amex, about $1,500 fixed closing costs

My goals are to lower monthly payments as my income drops significantly in 1.5 years (change in alimony) OR drop overall interest costs if I'm able to increase my income to replace the alimony. In the interim, I'll be investing the difference in the monthly payments in my Vanguard taxable account. Biggest puzzle is that I don't know how long I'll stay in the house, so I'm also considering 2.5% with $4,500 lender credits (-0.76pts).

I'm about ready to lock. Rates from Quicken, LenderFi, and others on BankRate are worse, so I assume I'm good to go, but your collective wisdom is always appreciated.
What is Better’s bankrate offer for no cash out? That’s a lot of points for 1.75% even today.
Ghost2
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Ghost2 »

truenyer wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:38 pm
Ghost2 wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:20 pm Quick thoughts?

Current loan:
10 year fixed, 3%, 8 years left, no escrow
$210,000 balance
house worth over $1million (but assessed value $904,000 so I'm using $990,000 as value to avoid appraisal)
credit score over 800

Refi from Better:
15 year fixed, 1.75%, no escrow
$40,000 cash out, so $250,000 loan balance
$3,300 points (1.308%)
$2,000 credit from Amex, about $1,500 fixed closing costs

My goals are to lower monthly payments as my income drops significantly in 1.5 years (change in alimony) OR drop overall interest costs if I'm able to increase my income to replace the alimony. In the interim, I'll be investing the difference in the monthly payments in my Vanguard taxable account. Biggest puzzle is that I don't know how long I'll stay in the house, so I'm also considering 2.5% with $4,500 lender credits (-0.76pts).

I'm about ready to lock. Rates from Quicken, LenderFi, and others on BankRate are worse, so I assume I'm good to go, but your collective wisdom is always appreciated.
What is Better’s bankrate offer for no cash out? That’s a lot of points for 1.75% even today.
Actually, that is Better's offer for no cash out according to BankRate. They matched that for me and added the cash-out in afterwards. (They also matched their own rate with escrow, then removed escrow afterwards, because I prefer to pay my own bills.) (It was lower yesterday.)
livelifealittle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by livelifealittle »

MiddleOfTheRoad wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:04 pm If you are gonna keep your current house as a rental or second home, now is the time to refi for a lower rate. Once it is no longer your primary residence the rates are significantly higher.

If you are gonna sell it, then maybe refi is too much work for too little gain.

On the mortgage app they do ask if you are doing any other refi. Maybe drop the loan app for the new built and restart after you are done with current home refi.
We'll keep the current house. What does dropping the loan app mean?
We submitted the app several months ago but since it is being built, nothing is going on with that app until at least November. Will the lender for the current house refi be able to find out about the mortgage app for the new build?
MiddleOfTheRoad
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by MiddleOfTheRoad »

livelifealittle wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:57 pm
MiddleOfTheRoad wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:04 pm If you are gonna keep your current house as a rental or second home, now is the time to refi for a lower rate. Once it is no longer your primary residence the rates are significantly higher.

If you are gonna sell it, then maybe refi is too much work for too little gain.

On the mortgage app they do ask if you are doing any other refi. Maybe drop the loan app for the new built and restart after you are done with current home refi.
We'll keep the current house. What does dropping the loan app mean?
We submitted the app several months ago but since it is being built, nothing is going on with that app until at least November. Will the lender for the current house refi be able to find out about the mortgage app for the new build?
If credit score has not been pulled then they have no idea. But if there is a pull on your credit report they may ask. If it was me, I’d probably go ahead and refi. If they ask then say you were shopping for a mortgage (refi :wink: )
livelifealittle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by livelifealittle »

MiddleOfTheRoad wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:19 pm
livelifealittle wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:57 pm We'll keep the current house. What does dropping the loan app mean?
We submitted the app several months ago but since it is being built, nothing is going on with that app until at least November. Will the lender for the current house refi be able to find out about the mortgage app for the new build?
If credit score has not been pulled then they have no idea. But if there is a pull on your credit report they may ask. If it was me, I’d probably go ahead and refi. If they ask then say you were shopping for a mortgage (refi :wink: )

Great idea. I think we'll do that. Thank you so much!
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UpsetRaptor
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by UpsetRaptor »

Locked with better:
Fixed 30, 2.75%, $330K balance
1200 lender credits
A+F-credits = 0
$2K Amex credit

Rate went up today - Lender credit was higher yesterday. Old rate was 3.0, but it was still a no-brainer to do a no cost refi plus the 2K Amex credit for a lower rate.
tj
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by tj »

presto987 wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:08 am
presto987 wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:06 am Through my research I found out that 6 months isn't really the relevant timeline. I believe it's 120 days from when the loan is sold to Fannie Mae.
I just wanted to clarify that 120 days is the timeline for when Fannie/Freddie penalizes the lender who sells them the loan (see link below). If you’re working with a broker or a correspondent lender who doesn’t sell direct to Fannie/Freddie, then they will be subject to their own penalty period imposed by the main lender, which is usually going to be 6 months.

https://selling-guide.fanniemae.com/Sel ... 0Recapture
Freddie Mac doesn't seem to specify the length of time:

https://guide.freddiemac.com/app/guide/section/6303.5
buendia7410
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:42 pm

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by buendia7410 »

Hi
This is my first post.
I learned a lot from the forum here and appreciate your advice!

Current loan.
Primary home: 1.5mil with $510K mortgage at 2.875% 30 year fix. Monthly payment is about 2115(refi about one year ago while keeping the HELOC)
HELOC on primary home: $160K balance with $2.375% from BOA. It is ARM and rate is prime rate-0.875%. Monthly payment is $630/640 range.
Rental property: $900K with $138K mortgage at 3.75% 30 year fix. Monthly payment is ~about $903.

Note: HELOC balance is used on primary mortgage. Credit limit is $174K.

I am trying to do the cash out refinance either from primary home or from rental property.
My goal is to lower total monthly payment and have some emergency fund.

Case1: Cash-out from primary home
Loan amount: $~808K(combine primary home+HELOC+rental property). Close HELOC.
Best rate I got: 30 year fix, 3% from Better.com and no closing cost. -> will refinance from either Chase/BOA or WF to have relationship
discount by moving asset.

Case2: Cash-out from rental property
Loan amount: $~298K(combine rental property+ HELOC balance). And will still have HELOC open for emergency fund and home/investment property improvement. Best rate: 30 year fix, 3.25% from some smaller lender with 2.2K closing cost. -> will refinance from either Chase/BOA or WF to have relationship discount by moving asset.

Both approach could save me about $200 monthly but the total interest across loan period would be ~70K more than no cash-out over the whole loan period. My thinking is for case2 as it can lower my total monthly payment while have enough credit line for me to improve home/investment property. Since it is cash-out refi from rental property, it is hard to find the good rate.
On the other hand, if I do case1, I have more freedom to refinance from primary in the future as keeping the HELOC will make refinance longer and higher rate. In addition, it is easier to find the good rate I think.

So the question: which one is better? Is there any other better way?

Thanks, appreciate your advice!
presto987
Posts: 461
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:58 pm

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by presto987 »

tj wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:24 pm
presto987 wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:08 am
presto987 wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:06 am Through my research I found out that 6 months isn't really the relevant timeline. I believe it's 120 days from when the loan is sold to Fannie Mae.
I just wanted to clarify that 120 days is the timeline for when Fannie/Freddie penalizes the lender who sells them the loan (see link below). If you’re working with a broker or a correspondent lender who doesn’t sell direct to Fannie/Freddie, then they will be subject to their own penalty period imposed by the main lender, which is usually going to be 6 months.

https://selling-guide.fanniemae.com/Sel ... 0Recapture
Freddie Mac doesn't seem to specify the length of time:

https://guide.freddiemac.com/app/guide/section/6303.5
It says 120 days in the first sentence :)
tj
Posts: 4720
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:10 am

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by tj »

presto987 wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:51 pm
tj wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:24 pm
presto987 wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:08 am
presto987 wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:06 am Through my research I found out that 6 months isn't really the relevant timeline. I believe it's 120 days from when the loan is sold to Fannie Mae.
I just wanted to clarify that 120 days is the timeline for when Fannie/Freddie penalizes the lender who sells them the loan (see link below). If you’re working with a broker or a correspondent lender who doesn’t sell direct to Fannie/Freddie, then they will be subject to their own penalty period imposed by the main lender, which is usually going to be 6 months.

https://selling-guide.fanniemae.com/Sel ... 0Recapture
Freddie Mac doesn't seem to specify the length of time:

https://guide.freddiemac.com/app/guide/section/6303.5
It says 120 days in the first sentence :)
:oops:
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FrugalProfessor
Posts: 378
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Contact:

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by FrugalProfessor »

Another timing datapoint with Better.com:

* 6/14: Locked 15Y 2% $233k refi & applied for my first Amex card.
* 7/12: Closed (could have been sooner but was out of town)
* 7/16: Funded
* 7/22: $2k Amex credit hit. Called 800 528 4800 to request reimbursement after secure chat failed to help (I don't plan on using the Amex much at all). The system was unable to send a check for the full $2k, but was finally able to send a check for the $2k minus my current $300 balance, for a check of $1,700. Knowing now what I know, I should have simply requested the $1,700 check as explained here: https://www.americanexpress.com/us/cust ... efund.html

My net closing costs were negative $830 ($1,170 A+B+C+E minus $2k AMEX).

Better requested three separate payoff quotes during the process, incurring $75 of charges ($25/quote * 3 quotes) from my old lender. Two of these three quotes occurred on consecutive days, which I wasn't happy about. Luckily, I had two of the three charges reversed by calling my old lender. That was probably the only frustration during the whole experience. Otherwise, I loved working with Better (this was my second refi with them).

I wish I'd timed the refi a bit better (e.g. waiting a week or two to lock after the reversal of the "adverse market" policy), but oh well. If I could magically qualify for a second AMEX credit, I'd consider doing it again. Better makes it pretty painless.

I still don't pretend to understand how we are borrowing at <0% real.
I blog. Taxes are the lowest hanging source of alpha. I eat tax alpha for breakfast.
jay22
Posts: 986
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:56 am
Location: Sacramento, CA

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by jay22 »

FrugalProfessor wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:15 am Another timing datapoint with Better.com:

* 6/14: Locked 15Y 2% $233k refi & applied for my first Amex card.
* 7/12: Closed (could have been sooner but was out of town)
* 7/16: Funded
* 7/22: $2k Amex credit hit. Called 800 528 4800 to request reimbursement after secure chat failed to help (I don't plan on using the Amex much at all). The system was unable to send a check for the full $2k, but was finally able to send a check for the $2k minus my current $300 balance, for a check of $1,700. Knowing now what I know, I should have simply requested the $1,700 check as explained here: https://www.americanexpress.com/us/cust ... efund.html

My net closing costs were negative $830 ($1,170 A+B+C+E minus $2k AMEX).

Better requested three separate payoff quotes during the process, incurring $75 of charges ($25/quote * 3 quotes) from my old lender. Two of these three quotes occurred on consecutive days, which I wasn't happy about. Luckily, I had two of the three charges reversed by calling my old lender. That was probably the only frustration during the whole experience. Otherwise, I loved working with Better (this was my second refi with them).

I wish I'd timed the refi a bit better (e.g. waiting a week or two to lock after the reversal of the "adverse market" policy), but oh well. If I could magically qualify for a second AMEX credit, I'd consider doing it again. Better makes it pretty painless.

I still don't pretend to understand how we are borrowing at <0% real.
Good to know that we can that refund back as a check. Thanks for the link.
tj
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by tj »

How much does Better charge for notary? I closed on my purchase last night using Notarize.com whic hwas $150, it was super convenient, my notary was in Florida. I asked how many he does, he said if he logs in at any time of the day, he can get one within 5 minutes. It took probably 30 minutes, way faster to just click sign than to have to physically write on everything.

I think I might even pay a little extra for the convenience. YOu can do it on your time at any time between 12:01 AM and 11:59 pm Eastern on your closing date.

I believe they operate in 44 states.
ercolau
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by ercolau »

This thread is great. I hadn't been keeping track of it for a while but I got a call from a loan officer I did a refi with a year ago, asking if I wanted to do it again. His rate wasn't great but it prompted me to check this thread again. After seeing the rates people were getting I was able to lock with Better yesterday for 2.375% 30yr, A+B+C+E + AMEX should end up with me getting ~$200 in my pocket at the end of the process. This will be our third refinance in the last 18 months, each time I think the rates can't possible go any lower.

Thanks for all the great content in this thread all! :beer
Money_Badger
Posts: 91
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Location: Raleigh NC

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Money_Badger »

How does the AMEX thing work?

Is there a link that explains it? Do you have to apply for a new card? Is it some sort of arrangement between AMEX and Better? This thread is so long it would take me forever to find it ...

Thanks!

Roger
livelifealittle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by livelifealittle »

ercolau wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:43 am This thread is great. I hadn't been keeping track of it for a while but I got a call from a loan officer I did a refi with a year ago, asking if I wanted to do it again. His rate wasn't great but it prompted me to check this thread again. After seeing the rates people were getting I was able to lock with Better yesterday for 2.375% 30yr, A+B+C+E + AMEX should end up with me getting ~$200 in my pocket at the end of the process. This will be our third refinance in the last 18 months, each time I think the rates can't possible go any lower.

Thanks for all the great content in this thread all! :beer
We did a refi exactly one year ago and thought rate wouldn't go lower either. And yet here we are. It makes me think that maybe we might have to go through this again next year :D
It's too bad Better is not available in our state or it's fun reading all the great deals you all have been getting.
ercolau
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by ercolau »

Money_Badger wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:04 pm How does the AMEX thing work?

Is there a link that explains it? Do you have to apply for a new card? Is it some sort of arrangement between AMEX and Better? This thread is so long it would take me forever to find it ...

Thanks!

Roger
https://www.americanexpress.com/en-us/l ... -mortgage/

This will be my second time going for the Amex credit. The first go around I applied for the card during underwriting and asked Better to add the promotion to my application. I was worried it would mess things up with underwriting and/or the credit but it turned out fine. This time around I still have that Amex card open so they just asked for my card number as part of my application.
MrJedi
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by MrJedi »

Money_Badger wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:04 pm How does the AMEX thing work?

Is there a link that explains it? Do you have to apply for a new card? Is it some sort of arrangement between AMEX and Better? This thread is so long it would take me forever to find it ...

Thanks!

Roger
Details are here:
https://www.americanexpress.com/en-us/l ... -mortgage/

You just need a consumer (non business) Amex card.

You can use the link or if you don't use the link, tell your contact that you want to add the Amex offer. After it's added you'll see a banner in your loan portal that shows it, and one of the tasks before closing is to provide the card number. Does not need to be a new sign up.

You'll get a credit after funding onto the card. If you don't use the card regularly to use up the credit, you can request Amex for a check for the negative balance.
onamatopeia
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by onamatopeia »

I have been working with Better and LoanDepot, in a back and forth matching game, that I didn't intend for, but here I am, feeling exhausted and needing advice.

LoanDepot is beating Better with their amex credit, and I'm leaning towards them. The only thing is that their fees are atrociously high, but they're making up for it with a ton of lender credit. Is there anything I should be thinking of? Or am I being paranoid that something else will creep up, or there is a bait and switch waiting for me at the end of the rainbow?

Rate: 2.625%, 30 year conventional (locked on 7/20), approx 577k mortgage

Better: $1284 loan costs - $925 lender credit - $2000 amex credit = delta -$1641
Loan Depot: $2689 loan costs - $4,526 lender credit = delta -$1837

Thank you!
Goal33
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Goal33 »

In my scenario, better beats themselves on bankrate for the 15 year by a few hundred in credit but loses to themselves on bankrate for a 30 year by a few thousand.

I want a 15 year. Should I have them match based on the 30 year and expect the 15 year to improve as well?

Brandon, do you know?

Another question or opinion requested. Is it worth giving up a 2.5% 30 year (10 months in) for a 1.875% 15 year? The difference in payment (~$1800) would be going to a 70/30 stock/bond portfolio otherwise.
MrJedi
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by MrJedi »

onamatopeia wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:24 pm I have been working with Better and LoanDepot, in a back and forth matching game, that I didn't intend for, but here I am, feeling exhausted and needing advice.

LoanDepot is beating Better with their amex credit, and I'm leaning towards them. The only thing is that their fees are atrociously high, but they're making up for it with a ton of lender credit. Is there anything I should be thinking of? Or am I being paranoid that something else will creep up, or there is a bait and switch waiting for me at the end of the rainbow?

Rate: 2.625%, 30 year conventional (locked on 7/20), approx 577k mortgage

Better: $1284 loan costs - $925 lender credit - $2000 amex credit = delta -$1641
Loan Depot: $2689 loan costs - $4,526 lender credit = delta -$1837

Thank you!
I'd actually be more comfortable with higher credits that offset higher fees vs the other way around, assuming the net amount is the same. If any of the fees were overestimated, they can pass the savings to you. More likely to happen if the fees were higher in the first place.

When you say "loan costs" are you referring to section D? You'll want to include section E in your analysis too (sections F and G should not really factor into the analysis).
2K2D
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by 2K2D »

Hey everyone,

Long time reader, first time poster. You know the deal...taking everyone's advice and looking at a refinance through Better.com vs. my local mortgage broker. Better.com just seems easier and rates are way better than anything I can get locally. We refinanced in November of last year from 4.5% to 3.375 30 yr fixed. Better.com is quoting me the following. Can someone help me understand if I am truly getting a net credit? First time doing this myself. It appears I will owe at closing, but in reality I'll get most of that back in escrow return from my prior lender once the loan is funded since I am not financing any closing costs back into the loan?

This is on a 30 year fixed at 2.75%, no points on a $441k loan. Appraisal waived.

Loan Costs
A. $0
B. $64
C. $936
D. $1,000

Other Costs
E. $236
F. $506 (prepaid interest)
G. $5,123 (escrow prepay)
H. $0
I. $5,865

Total Closing Costs
D+I = $6,865
Lender Credits = $3,883
Cash from borrower at close = $2,982
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