[Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

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Dottie57
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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by Dottie57 »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:06 am
Jags4186 wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:40 am Someone who brings an additional $1,000,000 in revenue is always rewarded more than someone who figures out how to save $1,000,000 in expenses.
Not if the saves are recurring and the revenue isn’t. That’s not an unusual situation.
+1-
Jags4186
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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by Jags4186 »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:06 am
Jags4186 wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:40 am Someone who brings an additional $1,000,000 in revenue is always rewarded more than someone who figures out how to save $1,000,000 in expenses.
Not if the saves are recurring and the revenue isn’t. That’s not an unusual situation.
Why would you compare apples and oranges? You know that’s not what I said/meant.

And even if it were, I still believe my point stands. $1,000,000 savings can and would most likely just get spent elsewhere. $1,000,000 new business is new business that the employee could potentially take with them elsewhere.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by TomatoTomahto »

Jags4186 wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:41 am
TomatoTomahto wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:06 am
Jags4186 wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:40 am Someone who brings an additional $1,000,000 in revenue is always rewarded more than someone who figures out how to save $1,000,000 in expenses.
Not if the saves are recurring and the revenue isn’t. That’s not an unusual situation.
Why would you compare apples and oranges? You know that’s not what I said/meant.
And even if it were, I still believe my point stands. $1,000,000 savings can and would most likely just get spent elsewhere. $1,000,000 new business is new business that the employee could potentially take with them elsewhere.
I didn’t intend to misrepresent what you said. Perhaps it’s because of my industry (mega bank technology).

Saves usually came from rationalization (reducing number of applications, hardware, interfaces and reconciliations, etc.). That’s a gift that keeps on giving, and there are considerable knock on effects that are difficult to quantify (e.g., a reconciliation you no longer need to do reduces costs, risks, headcount, etc.).

In that same industry, revenue for the most part doesn’t walk with the employee.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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market timer
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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by market timer »

Jags4186 wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:40 am What I find interesting on here is that people managers, even anonymously on this forum, seem to discourage or claim it is incredibly difficult to increase comp beyond what is being graciously given to you by the organization. And I don’t doubt this is true for the majority of people. What I’m curious about are the superstars who end up being their manager’s boss a several years down the line. How does one position themselves for that, or does that really not happen without leaving and returning at a higher level.
If the goal is to optimize for compensation, you need to focus on two things:

(1) How much value do you bring to the company? How do you measure it and make it an apples-to-apples comparison with salary? Is your manager aligned with this measurement?

(2) How much of the value you bring to the company do you keep for yourself? (Ideally, this is tied to part 1 in a formulaic way)

If we define superstars as people who have meteoric increases in compensation and title, they almost always generate high, measurable value and negotiate to keep their fair share of this value. I'd advise most people to focus more on the first part--value creation. If you are an individual contributor, you are inherently limited in the value you can create. Therefore, you should be negotiating for headcount and territory (good business problems to solve). The higher you get, the more political it becomes, because other people in the company want territory that has high potential and will question any expanded headcount you get.

Merit alone is not enough to optimize for compensation. You must be prepared to leave for other jobs at other companies or inside your own company. The best moves are often diagonal--up and away. This ability to leave your job for greener pastures can be used to negotiate simply for higher compensation or for greater scope (headcount, territory).
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danbdzs
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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by danbdzs »

KlangFool wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:32 pm
danbdzs wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:20 pm
EnerJi wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:15 pm
danbdzs wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:08 pm
In terms of compensation, I'm probably getting a raise in absolute terms, however PPP adjusted is probably not so clear. HR may try to spin it as "look at this huge raise" comparing absolute TC only, and give me the lowest possible salary for the new level (in the US standard).
Is this a US-based company, and are you going to be on a work visa of some kind? For H1B (and possibly other visa classifications as well), you must be paid the "wage rate your employer pays other workers with similar experience and qualifications, or the local prevailing wage for the occupation in the area of intended employment, whichever is higher."
Yes, it's a US-based company and I think I would be on a H-type working visa.

"Whichever is higher" o wow, that is interesting, thanks for the response.
danbdzs,

US H1B salary is a publicly disclosed information. So, if you google search, "H1B Salary <job title> <Employer>", you would find the historical information. And, if your employer is too small, you can google on the job title only or the bigger employer.

Information is power.

<<Yes, it's a US-based company and I think I would be on a H-type working visa. >>

If you transferring from a US company subsidiary to US, it is probably an L1 visa.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-1_visa

KlangFool
Thank you KlangFool,

You are correct, I will probably require either L1 or TN (from NAFTA agreement) type visa.
Everything else equal, would compensation vary depending on the type of Visa?
KlangFool
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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by KlangFool »

danbdzs wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:00 pm
KlangFool wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:32 pm
danbdzs wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:20 pm
EnerJi wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:15 pm
danbdzs wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:08 pm
In terms of compensation, I'm probably getting a raise in absolute terms, however PPP adjusted is probably not so clear. HR may try to spin it as "look at this huge raise" comparing absolute TC only, and give me the lowest possible salary for the new level (in the US standard).
Is this a US-based company, and are you going to be on a work visa of some kind? For H1B (and possibly other visa classifications as well), you must be paid the "wage rate your employer pays other workers with similar experience and qualifications, or the local prevailing wage for the occupation in the area of intended employment, whichever is higher."
Yes, it's a US-based company and I think I would be on a H-type working visa.

"Whichever is higher" o wow, that is interesting, thanks for the response.
danbdzs,

US H1B salary is a publicly disclosed information. So, if you google search, "H1B Salary <job title> <Employer>", you would find the historical information. And, if your employer is too small, you can google on the job title only or the bigger employer.

Information is power.

<<Yes, it's a US-based company and I think I would be on a H-type working visa. >>

If you transferring from a US company subsidiary to US, it is probably an L1 visa.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-1_visa

KlangFool
Thank you KlangFool,

You are correct, I will probably require either L1 or TN (from NAFTA agreement) type visa.
Everything else equal, would compensation vary depending on the type of Visa?
It might. But, it is still a good idea to find out the market price.

KlangFool
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PowderDay9
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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by PowderDay9 »

ChiKid24 wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:36 am I am currently in the process with two other companies and know the target comp for those roles makes me underpaid. There is value to staying where I am as I have good visibility to c-suite and have worked hard to build up relationships throughout the company. I'm not looking to match an outside offer, just to make it harder for me to jump ship and less likely to keep looking.
It is great that you are feeling out your market value and from that you know you are underpaid. Do you know where your current salary is within the salary band for your position? Do you know the min, mid and max salary for the position you will be promoted to? Having that information can be very valuable when you have a discussion with your boss. The conversation is much different if you're already near the top rather than if you're at mid or below.

I would not suggest thinking of this as negotiating and don't wait until you have the promotion raise. You should have a conversation with your boss as far in advance of the promotion to gently let him know that compensation is important to you and that you want to grow your career. I think you said that he knows you have a lot of opportunities outside the org but that's an important item for the manager to know/remember. If your boss really values you, he will fight for a good raise and make sure it's market competitive.

Good luck!
Normchad
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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by Normchad »

market timer wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:05 am
Jags4186 wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:40 am What I find interesting on here is that people managers, even anonymously on this forum, seem to discourage or claim it is incredibly difficult to increase comp beyond what is being graciously given to you by the organization. And I don’t doubt this is true for the majority of people. What I’m curious about are the superstars who end up being their manager’s boss a several years down the line. How does one position themselves for that, or does that really not happen without leaving and returning at a higher level.
If the goal is to optimize for compensation, you need to focus on two things:

(1) How much value do you bring to the company? How do you measure it and make it an apples-to-apples comparison with salary? Is your manager aligned with this measurement?

(2) How much of the value you bring to the company do you keep for yourself? (Ideally, this is tied to part 1 in a formulaic way)

If we define superstars as people who have meteoric increases in compensation and title, they almost always generate high, measurable value and negotiate to keep their fair share of this value. I'd advise most people to focus more on the first part--value creation. If you are an individual contributor, you are inherently limited in the value you can create. Therefore, you should be negotiating for headcount and territory (good business problems to solve). The higher you get, the more political it becomes, because other people in the company want territory that has high potential and will question any expanded headcount you get.

Merit alone is not enough to optimize for compensation. You must be prepared to leave for other jobs at other companies or inside your own company. The best moves are often diagonal--up and away. This ability to leave your job for greener pastures can be used to negotiate simply for higher compensation or for greater scope (headcount, territory).
This is another amazing post from MarketTimer.

As a manager who promotes other managers, I am also looking at how much it would cost to replace you. If there were 3 people in the running for that job, and 2 of them were acceptable, I don't really care if you leave. Or if I could find a comparable talent in the market place for less, I'd take it.

Also, some jobs are only worth "so much". If a brain surgeon applies for a job as a dish washer, I'm going to pay him like a dish washer. It doesn't matter that he could get brain surgeon money at the hospital; I can fill that need for dishwasher money.

I don't think this is the case for OP; but something I see a lot is people rise up, are successful, and get paid well. And slowly but surely, they plateau, and at some point, they are no longer worth what they are paid. They never realize this of course, and think the big raises should just keep coming. After a while the gap between compensation and production grows so wide that they lose their jobs.

So for a lot of folks, early in your career you are contributing more than you are getting paid. And later on, you are getting paid more than you are worth.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by TomatoTomahto »

. . . speaking of amazing posts, a very clear one from Normchad.

ETA: on BH we often hear stories from the employee’s side, seldom from the manager’s. I tell my wife she should write a book when she retires, but probably readers wouldn’t believe some of the stories.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
bling
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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by bling »

Normchad wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:34 pm So for a lot of folks, early in your career you are contributing more than you are getting paid. And later on, you are getting paid more than you are worth.
yep. aggressively pursuing raises/promotions can be a double edged sword because eventually you will plateau in total compensation for your role, and due to the Peter Principle you will be at highest risk of getting laid off when you are at peak earnings.

in my industry, you could say that we have ageism because it's only young people that you see, but frankly, any older person i've dealt with were either a) really competent, everyone looked up to them, or b) they were...just really bad at what they did.
KlangFool
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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by KlangFool »

Normchad wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:34 pm

I don't think this is the case for OP; but something I see a lot is people rise up, are successful, and get paid well. And slowly but surely, they plateau, and at some point, they are no longer worth what they are paid. They never realize this of course, and think the big raises should just keep coming. After a while the gap between compensation and production grows so wide that they lose their jobs.

So for a lot of folks, early in your career you are contributing more than you are getting paid. And later on, you are getting paid more than you are worth.
Normchad,

1) And, what is wrong with that? Isn't this FAIR? It even things out. Why should the employer be the only side that get a good deal?

2) And, there is always supply versus demand. And, if there is supply shortage, why shouldn't the employee take advantage of that and get the maximum compensation that they can?

<<After a while the gap between compensation and production grows so wide that they lose their jobs.>>

3) In any case, the employer would not take care of the employee anyhow. As per your statement, that is the management view. Once the employee no longer contribute as per their compensation, they would be replaced. Or, if the employer can find a cheaper alternative. The employee would be replaced too.

4) Ditto, it is FAIR for the employee to take the same view too. Aka, the employer should be replaced when they no longer provide the adequate compensation to the employee's effort.

5) In summary, it is a business. There is nothing wrong for either side to shop for the best deal.

KlangFool
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by TomatoTomahto »

KlangFool wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:23 am 5) In summary, it is a business. There is nothing wrong for either side to shop for the best deal.
Of course it’s a business, but managers are human and care about the employees’ wellbeing. Not all employees, but most. There’s an aspect of threading the needle to take note of employees’ situations and one’s responsibility to the organization. We have seen mistakes on both sides of that dual responsibility.

This notion that managers only do a cold hearted analysis where employees are completely fungible does not correspond with my experience. A good manager balances their responsibilities. I’ve seen as many managers who put the organization at risk because of relationships with employees (ie, keeping someone well past their sell-by date) as I’ve seen cutthroat managers.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
Normchad
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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by Normchad »

KlangFool wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:23 am
Normchad wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:34 pm

I don't think this is the case for OP; but something I see a lot is people rise up, are successful, and get paid well. And slowly but surely, they plateau, and at some point, they are no longer worth what they are paid. They never realize this of course, and think the big raises should just keep coming. After a while the gap between compensation and production grows so wide that they lose their jobs.

So for a lot of folks, early in your career you are contributing more than you are getting paid. And later on, you are getting paid more than you are worth.
Normchad,

1) And, what is wrong with that? Isn't this FAIR? It even things out. Why should the employer be the only side that get a good deal?

2) And, there is always supply versus demand. And, if there is supply shortage, why shouldn't the employee take advantage of that and get the maximum compensation that they can?

<<After a while the gap between compensation and production grows so wide that they lose their jobs.>>

3) In any case, the employer would not take care of the employee anyhow. As per your statement, that is the management view. Once the employee no longer contribute as per their compensation, they would be replaced. Or, if the employer can find a cheaper alternative. The employee would be replaced too.

4) Ditto, it is FAIR for the employee to take the same view too. Aka, the employer should be replaced when they no longer provide the adequate compensation to the employee's effort.

5) In summary, it is a business. There is nothing wrong for either side to shop for the best deal.

KlangFool
I’m not saying there is anything wrong with any of this. I’m surprised though by how many people don’t understand that this is the way it is.

Everybody should do what is best for them. And I advocated on these forums for that.

A lot of people though, really do not understand where they stand in the overall “value proposition”. A lot of people wrongly believe they are more valuable to their employer than they are.

Sometimes I have employees who I wish would quit. They aren’t bad enough that I could fire them though. So they don’t get raises and bonuses. So sometimes when people complain that they aren’t being treated fairly by their company, it’s because they suck, not because they’re being mistreated.

And yeah, as employers there are things we don’t understand about the labor market, and there are things that we do understand a lot better than employees. And all of that goes into the assessments about promotion and compensation.

People gripe and complain a lot about their employers. And I’m sure some of it is fair. But some of it is sour grapes or cluelessness.
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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by KlangFool »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:42 am
KlangFool wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:23 am 5) In summary, it is a business. There is nothing wrong for either side to shop for the best deal.
Of course it’s a business, but managers are human and care about the employees’ wellbeing. Not all employees, but most. There’s an aspect of threading the needle to take note of employees’ situations and one’s responsibility to the organization. We have seen mistakes on both sides of that dual responsibility.

This notion that managers only do a cold hearted analysis where employees are completely fungible does not correspond with my experience. A good manager balances their responsibilities. I’ve seen as many managers who put the organization at risk because of relationships with employees (ie, keeping someone well past their sell-by date) as I’ve seen cutthroat managers.
TomatoTomahto,

<<managers are human and care about the employees’ wellbeing.>>

Let's assume that you are correct. But, why would it matters if the manager cannot do anything to get the employee adequately compensated? This is true in many cases. And, it would be a conflict of interest for the manager to tell the employee honestly that he/she should leave the employer in order to be adequately compensated.

In the end, the employee should not count on anyone else to look after their own interest. They are on their own. The earlier for the employee to wake up and realize this. The better that they will be.

KlangFool
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KlangFool
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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by KlangFool »

Normchad wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:37 am
Sometimes I have employees who I wish would quit. They aren’t bad enough that I could fire them though. So they don’t get raises and bonuses. So sometimes when people complain that they aren’t being treated fairly by their company, it’s because they suck, not because they’re being mistreated.
Normchad,

No, that is not the reason. The reason is they had seen clear cut cases when someone sucks and they get rewarded royally. And, this is publicly known.

This CEO destroyed the company and thousands are laid off across 2 years. As a reward for his incompetence, he received 24 millions in severance pay and 1 million a year of pension.

There are working class people and paying class people. Working class people are judged by their job performance. The paying class people has employment contract. They get paid for doing a good job. And, they get paid for doing a lousy job too.

KlangFool
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Normchad
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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by Normchad »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:42 am
KlangFool wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:23 am 5) In summary, it is a business. There is nothing wrong for either side to shop for the best deal.
Of course it’s a business, but managers are human and care about the employees’ wellbeing. Not all employees, but most. There’s an aspect of threading the needle to take note of employees’ situations and one’s responsibility to the organization. We have seen mistakes on both sides of that dual responsibility.

This notion that managers only do a cold hearted analysis where employees are completely fungible does not correspond with my experience. A good manager balances their responsibilities. I’ve seen as many managers who put the organization at risk because of relationships with employees (ie, keeping someone well past their sell-by date) as I’ve seen cutthroat managers.
Tomato, in my experience, you are correct. It is never as simple, and cut and dried as we like to make it out to be for purposes of discussion. It is always nuances, and we are humans making these decisions. And we know about your kids, and your sick mom, etc. and that should not affect our thinking, but it always does. And if it didn’t, I’d be ashamed of myself.

I’ve been with my current employer for 2+ decades. As an organization, we do truly care about our people. We have limits of course, but I am so grateful that as a manager, I always have the latitude to do what I think is right and fair. And sometimes, that’s taking that risk that a good employee is going to walk out the door. And sometimes, as part of caring for everybody, we have to keep the organization healthy and profitable by firing low performers, or helping them transition to employment elsewhere.

Because I’ve been here so long though, I do admit that I am increasingly out of touch with what the rest of the world is doing in some of these areas.
MAKsdad
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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by MAKsdad »

Normchad wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:37 am Sometimes I have employees who I wish would quit. They aren’t bad enough that I could fire them though. So they don’t get raises and bonuses. So sometimes when people complain that they aren’t being treated fairly by their company, it’s because they suck, not because they’re being mistreated.
I wish everyone could read this and honestly evaluate themselves against it.
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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by KlangFool »

MAKsdad wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:17 pm
Normchad wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:37 am Sometimes I have employees who I wish would quit. They aren’t bad enough that I could fire them though. So they don’t get raises and bonuses. So sometimes when people complain that they aren’t being treated fairly by their company, it’s because they suck, not because they’re being mistreated.
I wish everyone could read this and honestly evaluate themselves against it.
MAKsdad,

Why? They are not the worst kind of workers.

Aka, they have some productivity.

As compared to

A) Zero productivity -> do nothing.

B) Negative productivity -> produce nothing and stop others from working.

Then, you have management that destroy the company. They are not evaluating themselves as doing a lousy job too. They take care of each others. It is always others' fault.

KlangFool
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MAKsdad
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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by MAKsdad »

KlangFool wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:24 pm
MAKsdad wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:17 pm
Normchad wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:37 am Sometimes I have employees who I wish would quit. They aren’t bad enough that I could fire them though. So they don’t get raises and bonuses. So sometimes when people complain that they aren’t being treated fairly by their company, it’s because they suck, not because they’re being mistreated.
I wish everyone could read this and honestly evaluate themselves against it.
MAKsdad,

Why? They are not the worst kind of workers.

Aka, they have some productivity.

As compared to

A) Zero productivity -> do nothing.

B) Negative productivity -> produce nothing and stop others from working.

Then, you have management that destroy the company. They are not evaluating themselves as doing a lousy job too. They take care of each others. It is always others' fault.

KlangFool
I agree that we should hold managers accountable for being bad at their jobs. That doesn't (shouldn't) have any impact on also holding individual workers accountable for being bad/below average at their jobs too.

The point that NormChad made that I like is that people don't typically evaluate themselves honestly. If you're getting zero raise, you should maybe look at yourself first and figure out if you are bad/below average before just assuming you're being treated unfairly. Everyone thinks they're above average, and they just can't all be right.
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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by KlangFool »

Folks,

It is very simple.

If you want to know how the real world actually work, you just need listen to sport news about NFL (National Football League). You have coaches (management) that get paid well because they know somebody. Then, you have players (employees) that are treated as disposable commodities. Every now and then, you have Stars that actually are compensated well. But, the coaches (management) get guaranteed contract. The players (employee) has no guaranteed contract.

It is a great reflection of American management.

KlangFool
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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by KlangFool »

MAKsdad wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:28 pm

The point that NormChad made that I like is that people don't typically evaluate themselves honestly. If you're getting zero raise, you should maybe look at yourself first and figure out if you are bad/below average before just assuming you're being treated unfairly. Everyone thinks they're above average, and they just can't all be right.
MAKsdad,

Are we human beings?

This is part of being human.

<<people don't typically evaluate themselves honestly.>>

We are human beings. Isn't this obvious? And, conversely, can you claim that management evaluate themselves honestly? The answer would be no too. So, what is the point of your argument? Aka, the worker bee should be held to a higher standard than the management? Why is this FAIR?

KlangFool
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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by 8foot7 »

In my experience, there are far more employees think they are more valuable to their organizations than their organizations perceive than there are employees who are actually underpaid relative to their value or contribution. It's human nature to generally overstate one's importance to a larger organization. Your field of view, your perspective, is simply not calibrated. Most shops, except for very smallest, will continue on and their employee parts are just cogs in a wheel. Some cogs do more work than others. All cogs vary in size, quality, positioning. But cogs are, invariably, cogs.

I believe there is also a current phenomenon where some employers think a certain class of positions is worth far more than they actually are. That has driven their price up. See: engineers, software, especially in Bayrea.
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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by bling »

KlangFool wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:30 pm Folks,

It is very simple.

If you want to know how the real world actually work, you just need listen to sport news about NFL (National Football League). You have coaches (management) that get paid well because they know somebody. Then, you have players (employees) that are treated as disposable commodities. Every now and then, you have Stars that actually are compensated well. But, the coaches (management) get guaranteed contract. The players (employee) has no guaranteed contract.

It is a great reflection of American management.

KlangFool
this is not universal. in certain industries, when push comes to shove the first people to go are middle management because a) they are not the ones doing the actual work, and b) they aren't high enough in the ladder to make decisions.
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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by ChiKid24 »

PowderDay9 wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:40 pm
ChiKid24 wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:36 am I am currently in the process with two other companies and know the target comp for those roles makes me underpaid. There is value to staying where I am as I have good visibility to c-suite and have worked hard to build up relationships throughout the company. I'm not looking to match an outside offer, just to make it harder for me to jump ship and less likely to keep looking.
It is great that you are feeling out your market value and from that you know you are underpaid. Do you know where your current salary is within the salary band for your position? Do you know the min, mid and max salary for the position you will be promoted to? Having that information can be very valuable when you have a discussion with your boss. The conversation is much different if you're already near the top rather than if you're at mid or below.

I would not suggest thinking of this as negotiating and don't wait until you have the promotion raise. You should have a conversation with your boss as far in advance of the promotion to gently let him know that compensation is important to you and that you want to grow your career. I think you said that he knows you have a lot of opportunities outside the org but that's an important item for the manager to know/remember. If your boss really values you, he will fight for a good raise and make sure it's market competitive.

Good luck!
Thanks. This is exactly the process I followed. I had a 1:1 with my manager on Tuesday and told him I'm excited about the pending promotion, but had started the process with some other companies prior to him giving me the news. I told him I have a sense of where compensation is for people at the potential new level. We discussed how bonus target and equity comp are fixed as a % of salary based on level at the company and there was nothing that could be done with that part of the offer. I told him I understood that and thus would hope the new salary would make it so the total comp is in the same ballpark, implying an X% raise. I'm pretty aware of the salary bands at my existing and potential new level. I'm currently near the top of my current level due to the nature of my work (I have multiple advanced degrees). The ask is slightly above the midpoint of the potential new level (say 55-60th percentile).

I made it known to him that I'd rather stay with the company and it isn't all about money. I enjoy my work, the exposure I get to leadership, the learning I get from him, and have worked hard to build internal relationships. But I do want to be compensated to the point where I don't need to look elsewhere or at least where jumping ship would be a bit less appealing.

The conversation went very well and he appreciated me coming to him. He said he needed this type of information as our company has started looking at overall compensation and how we compare to the market in more depth this year due to recent departures and difficulties in hiring. He said it would be helpful for him to advocate on my behalf with his leader and HR. To me, this is either specific to our company or perhaps verification that my thesis regarding this year being a bit different due to inflation and a tight labor market.

I got a lot of responses to my post saying I should just take the promotion and be happy. Some even said they would be annoyed if the employee asked for more. My income is one of my greatest wealth building tools. Knowing that annual raises tend to be more like cost of living adjustments, I think a promotion is a great time to advocate for yourself to get more. I find it a bit odd that this forum pushes so much to save .0001% on mutual fund expense ratios then looks poorly on someone trying to earn more by doing a little negotiating.

Obviously everyone's case is different and the approach matters. I also don't know how this will end up. But providing helpful information to my manager to advocate for me and avoid a situation where the promotion offer completely misses the mark and creates a difficult conversation is a good thing and a step I'm glad I took. I'll follow up once things materialize, even if they hand me my walking papers. Hopefully that doesn't happen and a little bit of work on my end reaps some benefits for me and my family. More to come...
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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by LadyGeek »

I have a feeling that may have been a career limiting discussion. In the short term, it sounds reasonable. In the long term, they'll remember that you abandoned company loyalty to look elsewhere. Unless this is common practice in your field of expertise, loyalty is one of those intangibles that can make or break your path to future promotions.
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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by ChiKid24 »

LadyGeek wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:28 pm I have a feeling that may have been a career limiting discussion. In the short term, it sounds reasonable. In the long term, they'll remember that you abandoned company loyalty to look elsewhere. Unless this is common practice in your field of expertise, loyalty is one of those intangibles that can make or break your path to future promotions.
Career limiting is a bit too far, no? Perhaps limited at that company if what you say is true and plays out. But it's not the only place to work. Career will be just fine.

I also don't understand why it is disloyal to test the market to see what you're worth. If you don't do that, how do you know? Finally my role at the company involves deals and negotiations. I might actually be looked at poorly by my boss if I didn't try to negotiate!
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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by 8foot7 »

ChiKid24 wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:34 pm
LadyGeek wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:28 pm I have a feeling that may have been a career limiting discussion. In the short term, it sounds reasonable. In the long term, they'll remember that you abandoned company loyalty to look elsewhere. Unless this is common practice in your field of expertise, loyalty is one of those intangibles that can make or break your path to future promotions.
Career limiting is a bit too far, no? Perhaps limited at that company if what you say is true and plays out. But it's not the only place to work. Career will be just fine.

I also don't understand why it is disloyal to test the market to see what you're worth. If you don't do that, how do you know? Finally my role at the company involves deals and negotiations. I might actually be looked at poorly by my boss if I didn't try to negotiate!
I think you misplayed your hand. You went to your manager without full information on (a) what the exact market for you is out there--for example, a job offer with higher pay; or (b) full correct information on the actual pay bands in your current company for your current position and the position into which he wants to promote you; and instead issued what is tantamount to a vague threat that you've already been interviewing elsewhere and may be about to jump ship if he doesn't meet a number you won't tell him. You basically put him in the position of having to make you a counteroffer but he doesn't know what he's betting against and doesn't know if you actually have an offer either.

I am definitely going to my leader after a conversation like that with one of my directs, but it's to start to get a requisition opened up because I have an immediate retention issue to address. In no way would I be pushing to get you even more money than I would have been getting you anyway.
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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by LadyGeek »

ChiKid24 wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:34 pm Career limiting is a bit too far, no? Perhaps limited at that company if what you say is true and plays out. But it's not the only place to work. Career will be just fine.

I also don't understand why it is disloyal to test the market to see what you're worth. If you don't do that, how do you know? Finally my role at the company involves deals and negotiations. I might actually be looked at poorly by my boss if I didn't try to negotiate!
First, I agree with 8foot7. I may have missed it, but is this your first job in your field of expertise? You need to be careful shopping your resume around. Why? The networking grapevine is strong. There is not only a strong internal company grapevine, but a weaker grapevine across companies. If this is a specialty field of expertise, you will know the people at these companies - and they will know you.

Jump too many times and everyone will know you for a short-timer. It will become increasingly difficult to get employment for the long-term.

What will you do if one of your interviews results in a job offer?

Negotiating deals for your company is very different than negotiating for your job. It's a balance of acting in the best interest of your company to keep profits high while giving yourself a nice raise. You manager is balancing the two and the offer you received is the result.
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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by gogreen »

Normchad wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:34 pm
market timer wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:05 am
Jags4186 wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:40 am What I find interesting on here is that people managers, even anonymously on this forum, seem to discourage or claim it is incredibly difficult to increase comp beyond what is being graciously given to you by the organization. And I don’t doubt this is true for the majority of people. What I’m curious about are the superstars who end up being their manager’s boss a several years down the line. How does one position themselves for that, or does that really not happen without leaving and returning at a higher level.
If the goal is to optimize for compensation, you need to focus on two things:

(1) How much value do you bring to the company? How do you measure it and make it an apples-to-apples comparison with salary? Is your manager aligned with this measurement?

(2) How much of the value you bring to the company do you keep for yourself? (Ideally, this is tied to part 1 in a formulaic way)

If we define superstars as people who have meteoric increases in compensation and title, they almost always generate high, measurable value and negotiate to keep their fair share of this value. I'd advise most people to focus more on the first part--value creation. If you are an individual contributor, you are inherently limited in the value you can create. Therefore, you should be negotiating for headcount and territory (good business problems to solve). The higher you get, the more political it becomes, because other people in the company want territory that has high potential and will question any expanded headcount you get.

Merit alone is not enough to optimize for compensation. You must be prepared to leave for other jobs at other companies or inside your own company. The best moves are often diagonal--up and away. This ability to leave your job for greener pastures can be used to negotiate simply for higher compensation or for greater scope (headcount, territory).
This is another amazing post from MarketTimer.

As a manager who promotes other managers, I am also looking at how much it would cost to replace you. If there were 3 people in the running for that job, and 2 of them were acceptable, I don't really care if you leave. Or if I could find a comparable talent in the market place for less, I'd take it.

That's sad but VERY true. I care way more about mid performer who covers a unique area than about two great performers who cover a commodity area :sharebeer
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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by gogreen »

market timer wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:05 am You must be prepared to leave for other jobs at other companies or inside your own company. The best moves are often diagonal--up and away. This ability to leave your job for greener pastures can be used to negotiate simply for higher compensation or for greater scope (headcount, territory).
Brilliant, nothing to add about modern enterprise world :sharebeer
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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by ChiKid24 »

LadyGeek wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:20 pm
ChiKid24 wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:34 pm Career limiting is a bit too far, no? Perhaps limited at that company if what you say is true and plays out. But it's not the only place to work. Career will be just fine.

I also don't understand why it is disloyal to test the market to see what you're worth. If you don't do that, how do you know? Finally my role at the company involves deals and negotiations. I might actually be looked at poorly by my boss if I didn't try to negotiate!
First, I agree with 8foot7. I may have missed it, but is this your first job in your field of expertise? You need to be careful shopping your resume around. Why? The networking grapevine is strong. There is not only a strong internal company grapevine, but a weaker grapevine across companies. If this is a specialty field of expertise, you will know the people at these companies - and they will know you.

Jump too many times and everyone will know you for a short-timer. It will become increasingly difficult to get employment for the long-term.

What will you do if one of your interviews results in a job offer?
Not my first job. 20 years post-grad school experience. Financially independent. 5-10 years from early retirement.

I would accept an offer elsewhere if the numbers made it too hard to stay.
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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by LadyGeek »

OK, now I see your position. "Financially independent" with 20 years experience gives you a lot of options.

As market timer stated - Be prepared to leave your job if an offer comes through.

It sounds like you've thought this through and have a plan. Good luck moving forward, whichever path you take.
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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by PowderDay9 »

ChiKid24 wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:22 pm Thanks. This is exactly the process I followed. I had a 1:1 with my manager on Tuesday and told him I'm excited about the pending promotion, but had started the process with some other companies prior to him giving me the news. I told him I have a sense of where compensation is for people at the potential new level. We discussed how bonus target and equity comp are fixed as a % of salary based on level at the company and there was nothing that could be done with that part of the offer. I told him I understood that and thus would hope the new salary would make it so the total comp is in the same ballpark, implying an X% raise. I'm pretty aware of the salary bands at my existing and potential new level. I'm currently near the top of my current level due to the nature of my work (I have multiple advanced degrees). The ask is slightly above the midpoint of the potential new level (say 55-60th percentile).

I made it known to him that I'd rather stay with the company and it isn't all about money. I enjoy my work, the exposure I get to leadership, the learning I get from him, and have worked hard to build internal relationships. But I do want to be compensated to the point where I don't need to look elsewhere or at least where jumping ship would be a bit less appealing.

The conversation went very well and he appreciated me coming to him. He said he needed this type of information as our company has started looking at overall compensation and how we compare to the market in more depth this year due to recent departures and difficulties in hiring. He said it would be helpful for him to advocate on my behalf with his leader and HR. To me, this is either specific to our company or perhaps verification that my thesis regarding this year being a bit different due to inflation and a tight labor market.

I got a lot of responses to my post saying I should just take the promotion and be happy. Some even said they would be annoyed if the employee asked for more. My income is one of my greatest wealth building tools. Knowing that annual raises tend to be more like cost of living adjustments, I think a promotion is a great time to advocate for yourself to get more. I find it a bit odd that this forum pushes so much to save .0001% on mutual fund expense ratios then looks poorly on someone trying to earn more by doing a little negotiating.

Obviously everyone's case is different and the approach matters. I also don't know how this will end up. But providing helpful information to my manager to advocate for me and avoid a situation where the promotion offer completely misses the mark and creates a difficult conversation is a good thing and a step I'm glad I took. I'll follow up once things materialize, even if they hand me my walking papers. Hopefully that doesn't happen and a little bit of work on my end reaps some benefits for me and my family. More to come...
It sounds like the conversation went well and your manager will fight to get you as much as he can. Nothing more you need to do now unless he comes back and asks for any more info from you. I wouldn't suggest negotiating directly after receiving the raise. Hopefully it's good and you don't even feel tempted too.

I can understand why some people here were hesitant on your conversation. Most other situations this wouldn't be recommended but you had all the items below that together it made sense to do what you did.

1. Specialized skills with multiple grad degrees
2. Company has struggled to find talent for your job function
3. High performer
4. Good relationship with your manager
5. Other potential opportunities outside the organization
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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by word »

I think a lot of the back and forth in this discussion can be simultaneously true at different companies, even inside the same company.

Certain managers are going to be annoyed and hold it against you for a long time, I would argue that this is absurd, but it IS a reality. At the same time, many managers will be in a place where they listen openly and would like to do something for you, but can't due to budgets etc.

In general, it will fall to you to determine which type of manager you have. In general, I'd advise asking. If you have a manager where it becomes apparent that they're very negative after you've made that ask, you want to get out of that position anyway. If you have the more open/flexible manager, you might get more money. Your life situation, responsibilities, and general situation are really critical when determining the path forward here.

As others have said, employees (especially those that are ambitious, but early in their career) may not see their own weaknesses. In that case, the manager should be clear about why the employee isn't quite ready for what they're asking for and how they can move to achieve it. This is as much a reality as the bad managers that don't work for their employees.
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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by gogreen »

LadyGeek wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:28 pm they'll remember that you abandoned company loyalty to look elsewhere.
Abandoned what :oops: ? At least for the last decade even HRs have been saying - you get fooled every time you spend more then 2,5-3 years in one role / company :mrgreen:
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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by KlangFool »

word wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:03 am I think a lot of the back and forth in this discussion can be simultaneously true at different companies, even inside the same company.

Certain managers are going to be annoyed and hold it against you for a long time, I would argue that this is absurd, but it IS a reality. At the same time, many managers will be in a place where they listen openly and would like to do something for you, but can't due to budgets etc.

In general, it will fall to you to determine which type of manager you have. In general, I'd advise asking. If you have a manager where it becomes apparent that they're very negative after you've made that ask, you want to get out of that position anyway. If you have the more open/flexible manager, you might get more money. Your life situation, responsibilities, and general situation are really critical when determining the path forward here.

As others have said, employees (especially those that are ambitious, but early in their career) may not see their own weaknesses. In that case, the manager should be clear about why the employee isn't quite ready for what they're asking for and how they can move to achieve it. This is as much a reality as the bad managers that don't work for their employees.
word,

In summary, this is a test as to whether this is the manager that you want to work with a bit longer. Hence, those in the management do not like it. But, it goes both ways. The management want to measure the employee with KPI. The employee want to test the manager whether they can deliver too. For those managers that can deliver, this is not a problem unless they have a big ego.

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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by KlangFool »

gogreen wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:25 am
LadyGeek wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:28 pm they'll remember that you abandoned company loyalty to look elsewhere.
Abandoned what :oops: ? At least for the last decade even HRs have been saying - you get fooled every time you spend more then 2,5-3 years in one role / company :mrgreen:
gogreen,

A) Many of my 100+ years old ex-employers no longer exist. Loyalty may mean something if the employers do not die. In this day and age, many employees would have a longer and more successful careers than their employers.

B) I have loyalty to some of my ex-managers. They take care of me whether I am still working for them.

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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by LadyGeek »

^^^ In my situation, I was working in a company that was acquired multiple times. We were a mid-sized group working in a specialized area. Everyone knew everyone else and we stuck together. The only thing we did was change departments.

We used to joke that we had "dial-a-badge" IDs. Just put the new company name on your badge, cross out the old name. Multiple times.

So, we moved companies by staying in place. Same managers, different benefits - mostly in the downgrade direction.

Why did I stay? Unwillingness to move and I actually liked my job - until the last year or so when I didn't. At that point, I retired.

Since I left, I've heard that the company has changed names again. Not my circus. Not my monkey.
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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by KlangFool »

LadyGeek wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:54 am ^^^ In my situation, I was working in a company that was acquired multiple times. We were a mid-sized group working in a specialized area. Everyone knew everyone else and we stuck together. The only thing we did was change departments.

We used to joke that we had "dial-a-badge" IDs. Just put the new company name on your badge, cross out the old name. Multiple times.

So, we moved companies by staying in place. Same managers, different benefits - mostly in the downgrade direction.

Why did I stay? Unwillingness to move and I actually liked my job - until the last year or so when I didn't. At that point, I retired.

Since I left, I've heard that the company has changed names again. Not my circus. Not my monkey.
In my case, 80+% of employees were let go when the old employer was acquired by someone. Loyalty to the employer is totally pointless and destructive to the person's future. The social network of the ex-employees is very useful. But, that has to do how you treat others and what you accomplished.

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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by MAKsdad »

KlangFool wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:00 am
LadyGeek wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:54 am ^^^ In my situation, I was working in a company that was acquired multiple times. We were a mid-sized group working in a specialized area. Everyone knew everyone else and we stuck together. The only thing we did was change departments.

We used to joke that we had "dial-a-badge" IDs. Just put the new company name on your badge, cross out the old name. Multiple times.

So, we moved companies by staying in place. Same managers, different benefits - mostly in the downgrade direction.

Why did I stay? Unwillingness to move and I actually liked my job - until the last year or so when I didn't. At that point, I retired.

Since I left, I've heard that the company has changed names again. Not my circus. Not my monkey.
In my case, 80+% of employees were let go when the old employer was acquired by someone. Loyalty to the employer is totally pointless and destructive to the person's future. The social network of the ex-employees is very useful. But, that has to do how you treat others and what you accomplished.

KlangFool
Average management tenure at my company is almost 20 years. There are still some companies out there who value loyalty.
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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by LadyGeek »

^^^ Working in a specialty area that is very difficult to replace doesn't hurt, either. Our department (loose term avoiding all details) was one of the key areas the acquiring companies wanted. Every time. :)
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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by KlangFool »

MAKsdad wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:31 am
KlangFool wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:00 am
LadyGeek wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:54 am ^^^ In my situation, I was working in a company that was acquired multiple times. We were a mid-sized group working in a specialized area. Everyone knew everyone else and we stuck together. The only thing we did was change departments.

We used to joke that we had "dial-a-badge" IDs. Just put the new company name on your badge, cross out the old name. Multiple times.

So, we moved companies by staying in place. Same managers, different benefits - mostly in the downgrade direction.

Why did I stay? Unwillingness to move and I actually liked my job - until the last year or so when I didn't. At that point, I retired.

Since I left, I've heard that the company has changed names again. Not my circus. Not my monkey.
In my case, 80+% of employees were let go when the old employer was acquired by someone. Loyalty to the employer is totally pointless and destructive to the person's future. The social network of the ex-employees is very useful. But, that has to do how you treat others and what you accomplished.

KlangFool
Average management tenure at my company is almost 20 years. There are still some companies out there who value loyalty.
That was the average of my ex-employers until they died.

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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by gogreen »

KlangFool wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:29 am
gogreen wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:25 am
LadyGeek wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:28 pm they'll remember that you abandoned company loyalty to look elsewhere.
Abandoned what :oops: ? At least for the last decade even HRs have been saying - you get fooled every time you spend more then 2,5-3 years in one role / company :mrgreen:
gogreen,

A) Many of my 100+ years old ex-employers no longer exist. Loyalty may mean something if the employers do not die. In this day and age, many employees would have a longer and more successful careers than their employers.

B) I have loyalty to some of my ex-managers. They take care of me whether I am still working for them.

KlangFool
Didn't get the point about 100+ years old ex-employers but I also do have a lot of loyalty to most of my ex-managers. Zero to the companies :mrgreen:
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Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by KlangFool »

gogreen wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:13 am
KlangFool wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:29 am
gogreen wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:25 am
LadyGeek wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:28 pm they'll remember that you abandoned company loyalty to look elsewhere.
Abandoned what :oops: ? At least for the last decade even HRs have been saying - you get fooled every time you spend more then 2,5-3 years in one role / company :mrgreen:
gogreen,

A) Many of my 100+ years old ex-employers no longer exist. Loyalty may mean something if the employers do not die. In this day and age, many employees would have a longer and more successful careers than their employers.

B) I have loyalty to some of my ex-managers. They take care of me whether I am still working for them.

KlangFool
Didn't get the point about 100+ years old ex-employers but I also do have a lot of loyalty to most of my ex-managers. Zero to the companies :mrgreen:
If the 100+ years old companies can die, so do those younger and newer companies. Nothing last forever. And, in this time, many employers do not last longer than the employees' career.

KlangFool
40% VWENX | 12.5% VFWAX/VTIAX | 11.5% VTSAX | 16% VBTLX | 10% VSIAX/VTMSX/VSMAX | 10% VSIGX| 40% Wellington 40% 3-funds 20% Mini-Larry
gogreen
Posts: 117
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:38 pm

Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by gogreen »

KlangFool wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:16 am
gogreen wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:13 am
KlangFool wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:29 am
gogreen wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:25 am
LadyGeek wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:28 pm they'll remember that you abandoned company loyalty to look elsewhere.
Abandoned what :oops: ? At least for the last decade even HRs have been saying - you get fooled every time you spend more then 2,5-3 years in one role / company :mrgreen:
gogreen,

A) Many of my 100+ years old ex-employers no longer exist. Loyalty may mean something if the employers do not die. In this day and age, many employees would have a longer and more successful careers than their employers.

B) I have loyalty to some of my ex-managers. They take care of me whether I am still working for them.

KlangFool
Didn't get the point about 100+ years old ex-employers but I also do have a lot of loyalty to most of my ex-managers. Zero to the companies :mrgreen:
If the 100+ years old companies can die, so do those younger and newer companies. Nothing last forever. And, in this time, many employers do not last longer than the employees' career.

KlangFool
Fortunately, didn't experience that so far :sharebeer
KlangFool
Posts: 21536
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:35 pm

Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by KlangFool »

gogreen wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:38 pm
KlangFool wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:16 am
gogreen wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:13 am
KlangFool wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:29 am
gogreen wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:25 am

Abandoned what :oops: ? At least for the last decade even HRs have been saying - you get fooled every time you spend more then 2,5-3 years in one role / company :mrgreen:
gogreen,

A) Many of my 100+ years old ex-employers no longer exist. Loyalty may mean something if the employers do not die. In this day and age, many employees would have a longer and more successful careers than their employers.

B) I have loyalty to some of my ex-managers. They take care of me whether I am still working for them.

KlangFool
Didn't get the point about 100+ years old ex-employers but I also do have a lot of loyalty to most of my ex-managers. Zero to the companies :mrgreen:
If the 100+ years old companies can die, so do those younger and newer companies. Nothing last forever. And, in this time, many employers do not last longer than the employees' career.

KlangFool
Fortunately, didn't experience that so far :sharebeer
Are you sure that is a good thing?

I received quarterly bonuses and annual pay raises when my employers were laying off a lot of people and on the verge of bankruptcies. Meanwhile, I received peanuts in bonuses and pay raise when my employer is doing well financially.

Please note that your interest and the employer's interest may not align at all. When the employer is laying of employees, it has to compensate financially for those remained in order to stay in business. If the employer is doing well financially, it can slack off in compensating the employees.

KlangFool
40% VWENX | 12.5% VFWAX/VTIAX | 11.5% VTSAX | 16% VBTLX | 10% VSIAX/VTMSX/VSMAX | 10% VSIGX| 40% Wellington 40% 3-funds 20% Mini-Larry
gogreen
Posts: 117
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:38 pm

Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by gogreen »

KlangFool wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:58 pm
gogreen wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:38 pm
KlangFool wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:16 am
gogreen wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:13 am
KlangFool wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:29 am

gogreen,

A) Many of my 100+ years old ex-employers no longer exist. Loyalty may mean something if the employers do not die. In this day and age, many employees would have a longer and more successful careers than their employers.

B) I have loyalty to some of my ex-managers. They take care of me whether I am still working for them.

KlangFool
Didn't get the point about 100+ years old ex-employers but I also do have a lot of loyalty to most of my ex-managers. Zero to the companies :mrgreen:
If the 100+ years old companies can die, so do those younger and newer companies. Nothing last forever. And, in this time, many employers do not last longer than the employees' career.

KlangFool
Fortunately, didn't experience that so far :sharebeer
Are you sure that is a good thing?

I received quarterly bonuses and annual pay raises when my employers were laying off a lot of people...

Yup, I prefer to drive but not being driven :wink:
KlangFool
Posts: 21536
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:35 pm

Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by KlangFool »

gogreen wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:56 pm
KlangFool wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:58 pm
gogreen wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:38 pm
KlangFool wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:16 am
gogreen wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:13 am
Didn't get the point about 100+ years old ex-employers but I also do have a lot of loyalty to most of my ex-managers. Zero to the companies :mrgreen:
If the 100+ years old companies can die, so do those younger and newer companies. Nothing last forever. And, in this time, many employers do not last longer than the employees' career.

KlangFool
Fortunately, didn't experience that so far :sharebeer
Are you sure that is a good thing?

I received quarterly bonuses and annual pay raises when my employers were laying off a lot of people...

Yup, I prefer to drive but not being driven :wink:
gogreen,

When you save enough to be FI, you are NEVER being driven.

KlangFool
40% VWENX | 12.5% VFWAX/VTIAX | 11.5% VTSAX | 16% VBTLX | 10% VSIAX/VTMSX/VSMAX | 10% VSIGX| 40% Wellington 40% 3-funds 20% Mini-Larry
TheHouse7
Posts: 549
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:40 am
Location: Washington State

Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by TheHouse7 »

I have only had one meaningful promotion in my first 5 years at this mega corp. I was excited to come to the table to negotiate, and my manager told me: there is a flat 5%, and I can give you a 3% annual merit increase after that. That was the most he could do, and I was thankful that he didn't laugh at me when I asked for 25%. :(
"PSX will always go up 20%, why invest in anything else?!" -Father-in-law early retired.
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TomatoTomahto
Posts: 12738
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: [Getting a promotion, how do I negotiate a raise?]

Post by TomatoTomahto »

Something that I haven’t seen mentioned, and if it was I apologize, is that managers generally have a pot of money to hand out for salary increases and bonuses. The ratings they’ve given to employees, promotions, etc. are looked at by their manager to make sure there aren’t any big anomalies.

Every year, watching managers try to convince their managers that their group deserves more because blah blah blah extenuating circumstances and Lake Wobegone. It’s very amusing if you enjoy goat rodeos. It usually starts in October, so set your DVR.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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