Washer/Dryer Recommendations

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Rex66
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Re: Washer/Dryer Recommendations

Post by Rex66 »

Bogle7 wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 3:07 pm
Rex66 wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:01 pmDon’t get a front loader washer. They break and smell
This is false.
15+ years with front loaders in 2 different houses. No smells.
Glad you wer lucky

I probably have 4 times the experience of you with this
Marylander1
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Re: Washer/Dryer Recommendations

Post by Marylander1 »

Rex66 wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 6:21 pm
Bogle7 wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 3:07 pm
Rex66 wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:01 pmDon’t get a front loader washer. They break and smell
This is false.
15+ years with front loaders in 2 different houses. No smells.
Glad you wer lucky

I probably have 4 times the experience of you with this
What brands were they, and were they maintained? There are many more variables in washing machines than top versus front loading.

Someone could also post "Don't ever get a European car! Mine was terrible, ran badly, had terrible acceleration, was extremely unpleasant to drive, couldn't get replacement parts, and nearly killed us in an accident. It was called Yugo or something."

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OpenMinded1
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Re: Washer/Dryer Recommendations

Post by OpenMinded1 »

A couple of years ago when I was in the market for a washer, I checked out what Consumer Reports had to say about it. They said that, based on their test results, front loaders did a better job of cleaning than any other common type of washer including the old agitator kind. They also said that in general the top-load HE washers performed as good or better than the agitator washers they tested. The HEs do take longer though. They also mentioned that picking the right detergent was critical for high efficiency top-loaders. Back then one rated much higher than the others - Tide HE Ultra Stain Release.

I bought a top-load LG HE washer by the way, and it works fine. You do have to pay attention to how you load it though. If you don't follow the instructions, some of the clothes may take a long time to actually get submerged. I know this from watching them thru the clear lid.

I think I decided against the front loader because of the extra cost especially with the pedestal, and I was somewhat concerned the door-seal might develop a leak and cause water damage. A neighbor of mine didn't get the pedestal, and ended up building a wood platform to put his on. He built one for the dryer also, so it would be the same height.
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lthenderson
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Re: Washer/Dryer Recommendations

Post by lthenderson »

bluebolt wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:55 pm Not sure why the hate for front loaders. They get our clothes very clean with little wear and they don't need much time in the dryer. Modern ones have features that prevent odor, though just leaving the door open has always done the trick for us.
There is a lot of science that makes those statements not really accurate. As a former designer, when we design these machines we put full loads (mostly denim due to the durability over cotton) and ran them until there were only buttons and zippers left. It doesn't take nearly as long as you would think. The reason front loaders are so darn water efficient is exactly because they can utilize the abrasion of clothes rubbing against each other to help scrub while this is minimized in a top loader where the clothes are floating in the water and not as much force is lost to abrasion. Another factor is that front loaders can often achieve much higher spin speeds which also degrades clothes faster as water is forced through fabrics and damaging fibers. If you are looking to preserve clothes, one most definitely should use a top loader and avoid the spin cycle and dryer, but at the expense of water usage.

One of the most common causes of front loader odors is the over usage of soap. From what I have seen, the natural tendency is to use about 2 to 3 times more soap than is actually needed. Most front loader washing machines will state they require a fraction of what the soap manufacturer suggests on their package in the machine directions. Again, front loaders are more efficient because they have the scrubbing action (increased wear on clothes) that help with the cleaning cycle. All that extra soap, much of it holding the organics from your clothes, can't get rinsed out efficiently in the name of water efficiency. As a result, soap residue (along with those organics), tend to build up with time and as they decay, they cause odors. I would guess 90% of the time when someone says their front loader doesn't smell while someone else with the exact same model says theirs smells, it is due to the amount of soap they use which is what the soap manufacturer recommends or more because their clothes are extra dirty today. As a result, loads end up full of soap that is very hard to extract. Top loaders can get by using more soap because the excess of water used in them will remove more of the soap and thus odors. Also, their lids don't have to provide an air tight seal like a front loader and so even if there is a buildup of odor, it can be released gradually and not so noticeable.
Mr. Rumples
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Re: Washer/Dryer Recommendations

Post by Mr. Rumples »

A friend just got a new washer dryer...a few things...because of where it is in the house and her height, its hard for her to read the digital displays and to see what's going on in the washer. Not a deal breaker, but something to think about. But what has her very unhappy is that the dryer only has two baffles, not the usual three. The cloths don't tumble as well. It also takes a long time to do a load.

I much prefer my Speed Queen. The heavy cycle I use takes 31 minutes; laundry is not an all day affair.

Regarding using abrasion as a factor in cleaning clothes in front loaders, I wonder if that increases pilling in blends.
bluebolt
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Re: Washer/Dryer Recommendations

Post by bluebolt »

lthenderson wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:00 am
bluebolt wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:55 pm Not sure why the hate for front loaders. They get our clothes very clean with little wear and they don't need much time in the dryer. Modern ones have features that prevent odor, though just leaving the door open has always done the trick for us.
There is a lot of science that makes those statements not really accurate. As a former designer, when we design these machines we put full loads (mostly denim due to the durability over cotton) and ran them until there were only buttons and zippers left. It doesn't take nearly as long as you would think. The reason front loaders are so darn water efficient is exactly because they can utilize the abrasion of clothes rubbing against each other to help scrub while this is minimized in a top loader where the clothes are floating in the water and not as much force is lost to abrasion. Another factor is that front loaders can often achieve much higher spin speeds which also degrades clothes faster as water is forced through fabrics and damaging fibers. If you are looking to preserve clothes, one most definitely should use a top loader and avoid the spin cycle and dryer, but at the expense of water usage.

One of the most common causes of front loader odors is the over usage of soap. From what I have seen, the natural tendency is to use about 2 to 3 times more soap than is actually needed. Most front loader washing machines will state they require a fraction of what the soap manufacturer suggests on their package in the machine directions. Again, front loaders are more efficient because they have the scrubbing action (increased wear on clothes) that help with the cleaning cycle. All that extra soap, much of it holding the organics from your clothes, can't get rinsed out efficiently in the name of water efficiency. As a result, soap residue (along with those organics), tend to build up with time and as they decay, they cause odors. I would guess 90% of the time when someone says their front loader doesn't smell while someone else with the exact same model says theirs smells, it is due to the amount of soap they use which is what the soap manufacturer recommends or more because their clothes are extra dirty today. As a result, loads end up full of soap that is very hard to extract. Top loaders can get by using more soap because the excess of water used in them will remove more of the soap and thus odors. Also, their lids don't have to provide an air tight seal like a front loader and so even if there is a buildup of odor, it can be released gradually and not so noticeable.
My statement wasn't a comparative statement, just an observation about our clothes using front-loaders. In any case, there are plenty of sources that say front-loaders are generally gentler on clothes than agitator top-loaders.

https://www.consumerreports.org/top-loa ... r-washers/
https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/blog ... g-machine/
https://www.choice.com.au/home-and-livi ... g-machines

Agree on the detergent usage. We have soft water and I use about a tablespoon of HE detergent per load and it does the trick very well.
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lthenderson
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Re: Washer/Dryer Recommendations

Post by lthenderson »

bluebolt wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:25 am
lthenderson wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:00 am
bluebolt wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:55 pm Not sure why the hate for front loaders. They get our clothes very clean with little wear and they don't need much time in the dryer. Modern ones have features that prevent odor, though just leaving the door open has always done the trick for us.
There is a lot of science that makes those statements not really accurate. As a former designer, when we design these machines we put full loads (mostly denim due to the durability over cotton) and ran them until there were only buttons and zippers left. It doesn't take nearly as long as you would think. The reason front loaders are so darn water efficient is exactly because they can utilize the abrasion of clothes rubbing against each other to help scrub while this is minimized in a top loader where the clothes are floating in the water and not as much force is lost to abrasion. Another factor is that front loaders can often achieve much higher spin speeds which also degrades clothes faster as water is forced through fabrics and damaging fibers. If you are looking to preserve clothes, one most definitely should use a top loader and avoid the spin cycle and dryer, but at the expense of water usage.

One of the most common causes of front loader odors is the over usage of soap. From what I have seen, the natural tendency is to use about 2 to 3 times more soap than is actually needed. Most front loader washing machines will state they require a fraction of what the soap manufacturer suggests on their package in the machine directions. Again, front loaders are more efficient because they have the scrubbing action (increased wear on clothes) that help with the cleaning cycle. All that extra soap, much of it holding the organics from your clothes, can't get rinsed out efficiently in the name of water efficiency. As a result, soap residue (along with those organics), tend to build up with time and as they decay, they cause odors. I would guess 90% of the time when someone says their front loader doesn't smell while someone else with the exact same model says theirs smells, it is due to the amount of soap they use which is what the soap manufacturer recommends or more because their clothes are extra dirty today. As a result, loads end up full of soap that is very hard to extract. Top loaders can get by using more soap because the excess of water used in them will remove more of the soap and thus odors. Also, their lids don't have to provide an air tight seal like a front loader and so even if there is a buildup of odor, it can be released gradually and not so noticeable.
My statement wasn't a comparative statement, just an observation about our clothes using front-loaders. In any case, there are plenty of sources that say front-loaders are generally gentler on clothes than agitator top-loaders.

https://www.consumerreports.org/top-loa ... r-washers/
https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/blog ... g-machine/
https://www.choice.com.au/home-and-livi ... g-machines

Agree on the detergent usage. We have soft water and I use about a tablespoon of HE detergent per load and it does the trick very well.
The first article doesn't offer a comparison on clothes wear between top loaders and front loaders. Only says that top loaders with center post agitators (not very common these days) is tough on clothes and I'm in agreement with that and it doesn't contradict my original statement.

The second linked article also offers no comparison. All is says is that front loaders clean better due to increased "mechanical action" which also is in agreement with what I mentioned above.

The third linked article does try to insinuate that top loaders are rougher on clothes because they have center agitators (not very common anymore) and have impellors on the bottom of the drum. Front loaders have baffles on the sides of the drum. All are for increasing agitation, i.e. mechanical action, which increases clothing wear. Remove the center agitator out of a top load washer as most HE models do and you simply have less mechanical action which means it doesn't clean as well but it doesn't wear your clothes as fast as a front loader.
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Bogle7
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Re: Detergent Amounts

Post by Bogle7 »

lthenderson wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:00 amOne of the most common causes of front loader odors is the over usage of [detergent]. From what I have seen, the natural tendency is to use about 2 to 3 times more [detergent] than is actually needed.
This is why I really like the Miele TwinDos system.
The default is 48 ml of Miele (European formulated Persil) detergent.
I slowly dialed that down to 32 ml over about 20 loads while observing (along with wife) cleanliness.
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ncbill
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Re: Washer/Dryer Recommendations

Post by ncbill »

Bogle7 wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 3:07 pm
Rex66 wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:01 pmDon’t get a front loader washer. They break and smell
This is false.
15+ years with front loaders in 2 different houses. No smells.
At the time (back in 2010) I picked a LG top-loader (HE, no central agitator, SS tub) over a front-load washer since:

1. mold (& not just on the seal) & the subsequent odor was still an issue with many front-loader brands.

2. more concerning, several brands were still having trouble with rear main bearing failures (= "buy a new washer")

Still wouldn't buy a front-load machine today, but I don't think the above are as much of a problem anymore.

BTW, Speed Queen changed back to the old design.
Ollie123
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Re: Washer/Dryer Recommendations

Post by Ollie123 »

Less experience here than some, but I'm of the view that washers/dryers are one of the best examples of wasteful "tech" being added to things that serves negligible purpose and introduces far more problems than they solve. Engineers have to find some way to justify getting paid for not doing anything useful. Kinda like the software folks at Microsoft whose job it is to rearrange buttons in Word every so often.

Needless to say, I prefer old-school by a wide margin. Think these things are a lot like investment accounts - the more you pay, the less you get. My clothes get just as clean if not cleaner. Pretty sure I could throw it off the roof and it would take more effort to repair the dent it made in the lawn than any damage to the units. We've never once had a repair of any kind needed and have basically only sold them when moving and it didn't make sense to keep them. For what its worth, I'm fairly young and also a technophile when it comes to most things so am not just being a curmudgeon.
Marylander1
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Re: Washer/Dryer Recommendations

Post by Marylander1 »

bluebolt wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:25 am Agree on the detergent usage. We have soft water and I use about a tablespoon of HE detergent per load and it does the trick very well.
This is probably a key factor for some people. When a neighbor needed to use our front-loader washer, I intervened to prevent them adding an extraordinary amount of detergent, maybe 5 to 10 times the recommended amount. I can imagine that would lead to a lot of problems, akin to trying to fill a car engine up to the brim with oil.

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rerod
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Re: Washer/Dryer Recommendations

Post by rerod »

Trader Joe wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 7:31 pm
socialforums2019 wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:18 pm In the market for new washer/dryer and wanted to try to leverage someone else's experience/research.

Looking for high efficient with wifi connection to be able to schedule/control everything from my phone. No idea what other kind of specs I should be paying attention to in a washer/dryer. Want it to be stackable if desired to do so.
I highly recommend Speed Queen washers/dryers.
Ive got a couple. Love them..

Also consider dexter.. Employee owned, made In the USA since 1894.
anoop
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Re: Washer/Dryer Recommendations

Post by anoop »

rerod wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:25 pm
Trader Joe wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 7:31 pm
socialforums2019 wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:18 pm In the market for new washer/dryer and wanted to try to leverage someone else's experience/research.

Looking for high efficient with wifi connection to be able to schedule/control everything from my phone. No idea what other kind of specs I should be paying attention to in a washer/dryer. Want it to be stackable if desired to do so.
I highly recommend Speed Queen washers/dryers.
Ive got a couple. Love them..

Also consider dexter.. Employee owned, made In the USA since 1894.
IIRC they are commercial only and the machines have to be bolted into the floor. But they have a front loader that doesn’t have a boot, so no issues with mold.
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Re: Washer/Dryer Recommendations

Post by surfstar »

I postulate that BHs skews towards the older side, and therefore a recommendation for a simple design, top loader seems to reign (get it) supreme here.
I imagine that if it was a forum of millennial and Gen X homeowners, the front load fears wouldn't be so overblown.

I'll just say that if you live in the SW or elsewhere that is always in the middle of a drought - try a front loader. :sharebeer
TheHouse7
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Re: Washer/Dryer Recommendations

Post by TheHouse7 »

surfstar wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:42 am I postulate that BHs skews towards the older side, and therefore a recommendation for a simple design, top loader seems to reign (get it) supreme here.
I imagine that if it was a forum of millennial and Gen X homeowners, the front load fears wouldn't be so overblown.

I'll just say that if you live in the SW or elsewhere that is always in the middle of a drought - try a front loader. :sharebeer
I prefer the wisdom of older generations when it comes to purchases over $1,000. Company manufacturing "efficiency"has not been for the consumer benefit for some time imho.
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chazas
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Re: Washer/Dryer Recommendations

Post by chazas »

surfstar wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:42 am I postulate that BHs skews towards the older side, and therefore a recommendation for a simple design, top loader seems to reign (get it) supreme here.
I imagine that if it was a forum of millennial and Gen X homeowners, the front load fears wouldn't be so overblown.

I'll just say that if you live in the SW or elsewhere that is always in the middle of a drought - try a front loader. :sharebeer
Agree - an old-fashioned tank built top loader may last but it isn't going to clean as well and it's much less efficient. YMMV.
surfstar
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Re: Washer/Dryer Recommendations

Post by surfstar »

TheHouse7 wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:25 am
surfstar wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:42 am I postulate that BHs skews towards the older side, and therefore a recommendation for a simple design, top loader seems to reign (get it) supreme here.
I imagine that if it was a forum of millennial and Gen X homeowners, the front load fears wouldn't be so overblown.

I'll just say that if you live in the SW or elsewhere that is always in the middle of a drought - try a front loader. :sharebeer
I prefer the wisdom of older generations when it comes to purchases over $1,000. Company manufacturing "efficiency" has not been for the consumer benefit for some time imho.
Over $1,000? We kept our old dryer, no real "upgrade" in efficiency/ROI. Washer only, so much less than $1k:

As stated upthread, purchased during a Memorial Day/week sale - $1049 retail for LG WM4000HWA, on sale for $749, 10% HD coupon, after tax was $732
$150 water rebate (not applicable to top loaders), sold the old water wasting top loader on Craigslist for $150, net cost under $450, not including the $120 damage refund LG also gave us for a dent/ding in shipping. (Our net cost = $312)

As we age, we continue to see how our parents are no longer the authority in many, many subjects. Finding the best deal with online shopping is a glaring one. They'd prefer to walk into the store and point at a washer and buy it.
The same will happen to us [aging out of knowledge]. Age does not always mean wisdom, by default.
illumination
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Re: Washer/Dryer Recommendations

Post by illumination »

Whirlpool, I have a front loader "Duet" that's been stellar. I had a Asko model that was garbage, despite it being the "high end" washer.

Don't get Samsung or LG, I just know so many people with major problems.

Even though I have a front loader, I think you will have far less issues with a top loader. Just a far simpler machine, the extra water use is pretty trivial, like someone once a week taking an extra shower. I think believe the difference is 20 gallons per use. If you average a load per week
20 x 52 = 1040 gallons. That's about $1.50 extra on my water bill per year.

But some people have strong feeling on this issue outside of financial considerations or maybe water is extra expensive. I don't like wasting water either, most of my water waste is landscaping though.
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lthenderson
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Re: Washer/Dryer Recommendations

Post by lthenderson »

Ollie123 wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:37 pm Engineers have to find some way to justify getting paid for not doing anything useful.
As a former engineer who designed washing machines, it isn't as simple as that. We get tasked to design a washing machine that meets the needs of say six different market sectors all requiring different abilities. A homeowner wants something much different than say a small YMCA which just needs to wash a load of towels a few times a day, which is different than the restaurant needing to clean greasy rags, etc. So rather than designing six different machines for six different markets, you build one that can do a lot of functions and has lots of options, that most will never use. You end up with a much cost affordable machine since you don't have to manufacture all the various options, stock all the various options, write manuals for all the various options, etc.

Another way of looking at it is if you just make a widget the same way you always have in a market full of similar widgets, you will soon be out of business in a world of "savvy" shoppers who continually ask, I can buy widget A for $X or I can buy widget B for $X but it comes with a lot more options that I may or may not every use. Most people equate buying widget A for the same price as widget B with more features as not a great deal. The auto industry with all the safety features continually coming out is going through this very thing right now. Nobody wants to buy a car with 20 year old technology even if it is more reliable.
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Re: Washer/Dryer Recommendations

Post by Blues »

lthenderson wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 3:29 pm Nobody wants to buy a car with 20 year old technology even if it is more reliable.
We 4Runner owners put the lie to that. 8-) :beer
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andypanda
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Re: Washer/Dryer Recommendations

Post by andypanda »

Another 4Runner driver here. :sharebeer

They have too much tech, although I do like having the electronic rear locking differential. I upgraded the speakers with Focals, but otherwise it pulls our boat and easily handles the deep sand on the Outer Banks. I highly recommend the factory KDSS suspension option for improved on and off road handling.

I love to read about how the Speed Queen TC5 washers don't get your clothes clean and mangle your clothes. Sure, okay, believe what you like. I just mowed 2 acres with a 50" Toro zero turn and after I crawled under it to scrape the deck clean I tossed my filthy clothes in the washer and they came out like new. I didn't get much if any grease on my clothes from the floor jack and steel ramps, but it was 90 here and still wet with dew and I was covered from head to toe even before I cleaned the deck. Tomorrow should be less humid when I spray primer on the kids' iron porch railings in town. I've been angle grinding them and sanding, and then put two coats of phosphoric acid on them to neutralize the rust before I do 2 coats of red primer and two of gloss lacquer. You have to let the primer dry for a week or two to get away with this method.

Everybody has an opinion. I'll be 71 soon and have lots of opinions based on experience, failure, and success. ;)

Oh, and we're on a 20-foot shallow well that hasn't run dry in 27 years. If we don't use it it'll probably end up running into the James River 1/3rd of a mile away and about 90 feet lower.
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Blues
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Re: Washer/Dryer Recommendations

Post by Blues »

andypanda wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:55 pm Another 4Runner driver here. :sharebeer

They have too much tech, although I do like having the electronic rear locking differential. I upgraded the speakers with Focals, but otherwise it pulls our boat and easily handles the deep sand on the Outer Banks. I highly recommend the factory KDSS suspension option for improved on and off road handling.

I love to read about how the Speed Queen TC5 washers don't get your clothes clean and mangle your clothes. Sure, okay, believe what you like. I just mowed 2 acres with a 50" Toro zero turn and after I crawled under it to scrape the deck clean I tossed my filthy clothes in the washer and they came out like new..,SNIP...
Everybody has an opinion. I'll be 71 soon and have lots of opinions based on experience, failure, and success. ;)

Oh, and we're on a 20-foot shallow well that hasn't run dry in 27 years. If we don't use it it'll probably end up running into the James River 1/3rd of a mile away and about 90 feet lower.
KDSS here as well in our 2016 Trail Edition Premium. (And on well plus septic... south and west of you in Transylvania County's mountains.)

You have a couple years on me, so I'll have some catching up to do. :sharebeer

In the meantime, I hope the 20 year old Maytag dryer we just repaired last week lasts another 20.
“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” - Sun Tzu | "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth." - Mike Tyson
RetiredInTheWest
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Re: Washer/Dryer Recommendations

Post by RetiredInTheWest »

We have newer (4 year old) LG washer and dryer (both HE). I miss the old dryer. Sometimes I miss the old washer too.

The new washer (top loading) has to be cleaned with an extra, clothes-less cycle every month. Not so HE in that way.

The new dryer finally quit heating. Being a boglehead and willing to take a chance to save an exorbitant repair bill, I got on Amazon, ordered the top three possible failing parts for $20, and went at it. Back came off, top came off, front came off, and then the drum came out. Under the drum (really!) was a bad fuse. Guess I was supposed to buy a new dryer instead? Replaced it and it is still running six months later.

Yeah, I do miss our old dryer. It failed once in ten years. Took a few minutes instead to change out the part.
Lazareth
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Re: Washer/Dryer Recommendations

Post by Lazareth »

For ten years our local appliance repair guy had advised paying for repairs to our '80's Kenmore washer because the new washers... the LG's etc at Home Depot, Lowes ... are nothing like it in quality. When that Kenmore died in 2018, repair guy emphatically recommended a SpeedQueen. They are a bit pricey, but American made, solid, very quiet and reliable. So we ponied up the $1,000 at the appliance store (yes some are still around) who delivered and install it, and took-away the old Kenmore. Stainless steel tub, top loader. We couldn't be happier. It runs silent, the controls are simple, and the spin cycle almost dries the load, saving on drier time/cost.

Store guy said he had customers in a newer homes, where laundry is located near the bedrooms, who called him after the first time they ran their LG washer while someone was trying to sleep, and asked him to replace it with a SpeedQueen.

I did override the lid lock after about six months, it was a real pain when you want to throw in a last minute item or just check on the load. My wife loves it! (YouTube guided me on the latch modification.)
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FlamePoint
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Re: Washer/Dryer Recommendations

Post by FlamePoint »

Speed Queen. The workhorse of the washer/dryer world. Skip the fancy electronics and go with the old fashioned dial. About as close as you’ll get to how washers used to be made.
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