M1 Finance

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jason2459
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Re: M1 Finance

Post by jason2459 »

dru808 wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:11 pm
chris319 wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:40 pm I called M1 Finance this morning and they said there is no way around their "pie" paradigm. They explained that this is because the share price will likely fluctuate between the time the order is placed and the trading window, so they don't allow you to specify a specific number of shares.

I was with a brokerage called "FolioInvesting" and they had trading windows. You could place an order in either shares or dollar amounts. There was no commission and no buying and selling behind your back. They never had margin and stopped offering retail brokerage services last year.

I'm REALLY uncomfortable with the idea of shares being bought or sold that I didn't explicitly order to be bought or sold. Otherwise I'd go with M1 in a second.

Why dont you open an account at fidelity, Charles, vanguard? Buy whatever you want, limit orders and all.


I'm a big fan of M1 but also understand it's not for everyone. I agree with dru808 that it sounds like Fidelity is what you'd want. You can buy fractional ETFs by a dollar amount or you can buy a set number of whole shares and can be done at any time during the trading hours. No strict windows.

I just wish Fidelity would allow automated dollar based fractional shares trading like can be done with mutual funds. That's still a big advantage that M1 has.
"In the short run, the stock market is a voting machine; in the long run, it is a weighing machine" ~Benjamin Graham
manuvns
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Re: M1 Finance

Post by manuvns »

if you dont need customer service m1 is the best way to invest! especially m1 plus , combined with brokers where you can execute limit orders. borrow from m1 plus buy at other brokers transfer , borrow and repeat .
chris319
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Re: M1 Finance

Post by chris319 »

Today I had occasion to call my current brokerage, TD Ameritrade.

I found a bug which the TDA rep and I think is a problem with Gainskeeper, not TDA. It seems Gainskeeper is skipping transactions. That's bad because that data ultimately goes to the IRS. The TDA rep was very responsive and attentive and said he would bring the issue up with his manager.

While I was on the phone with TD Ameritrade I asked about getting a break on my margin interest rate. He said it had to be evaluated by the margin department. He asked about other brokerage's margin rates. I had such a chart handy and quoted him 1.55%, 2% and 2.55%. We'll see what happens.

https://www.optimizedportfolio.com/lowe ... s-brokers/
The only person you have to please in life is yourself.
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CyclingDuo
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Re: M1 Finance

Post by CyclingDuo »

Gaston wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 1:52 pm
CyclingDuo wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:54 am
For those who might want to know, after lagging for the majority of the three years, Merriman's Ultimate Buy & Hold has caught up to the Vanguard Three Fund performance and is now just about dead even.
Thx. AIl else being equal, if two investment strategies drive similar results, the Boglehead rule of thumb is to pick the simpler one.
Understood. I have nothing against the tilt towards simplicity. We use it throughout all of our retirement accounts.

Not sure I would consider it to be a must follow rule of thumb regarding being a Boglehead to be a successful investor, but we could find many examples of Lazy Portfolios that have a variety of more complex strategies than a target date or three fund portfolio (see the nearly 200 Lazy Portfolios here: https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/150-p ... han-yours/).

The version of Merriman's Ultimate Buy & Hold Portfolio certainly goes beyond the number of funds held in the simple three fund portfolio. If we need to use the word complexity for an investment strategy that uses more funds than the simple three fund portfolio, or even the wrapper packed version of those funds that are packaged as the target date retirement fund, then so be it. In the Ultimate B&H portfolio that I am using that Merriman chose, the number of funds in the portfolio numbers 13 which qualifies as being much more complex than the three fund portfolio. Other threads covering the Ultimate B&H over the years I have been reading Bogleheads had versions of the fund that numbered down to only 4 funds, but I just clicked on Merriman's link to set up the portfolio at M1 using his construction at the time three years ago.

The management of those 13 funds, at least in the case of the M1 pies that Merriman put together for M1 (see this link for his pies: https://paulmerriman.com/m1-finance/), as described above in my previous post has been about as simple as it gets on my part. All new contributions go to the underweighted asset class(es) to keep the portfolio balanced and a non-taxable event for rebalancing in that manner. It would be much more complex if assembling the portfolio on one's own and constantly figuring out where each new contribution was to be invested to keep the AA balance in line. Not out of the realm to do it on one's own with ease, but I will say it is nice to have the robo figure all of that out for me and have everything on automatic pilot week in and week out. I guess what I am saying is that the platform (M1) removes the complexity these days and turns what was formerly a complex process to track everything into a very simple way to do it. Automation, in this case, is good because it employs a hands off, no emotion way of accumulating. Now, that is a different element than talking about slice and dice compared to three big index funds to cover it all (total US, total International, total US Bond). However, the robo helps with all Lazy Portfolios to remove elements of complexity and execution.

Along the lines of complexity vs. simplicity, there is a good article today that addresses the subject in Barron's by Allan Roth entitled "Why My Support for Robo-Advisors is Waning". Link is here: https://www.barrons.com/articles/why-my ... eid=yhoof2

In my experiment, I am more interested in the returns over the long haul to personally compare the simple three funder vs. the slice and dice Merriman Ultimate B&H as well as a passively managed stock portfolio. I probably agree more with the premise that the amount one is saving being more important than whether or not it is invested in a simple or more complex group of asset classes in a Lazy Portfolio. The Robo-Advisors such as M1, Acorns, etc... helps one mitigate the complexity down to the level of things being simple. The complexity of rebalancing has been removed from my involvement and the weekly contributions are on automatic pilot. All I have to do is download the tax statement into TurboTax each year during tax season which involves the click of a button or two, but the management on my part from the head to head comparison of the Three Fund Portfolio, the Ultimate Buy & Hold Portfolio, and the Passively Managed Individual Stock Portfolio is simple.

Net-net, these platforms have changed the investing process to make things simple for Lazy Portfolio investors. I see that as a good thing. I also enjoy that the majority of our portfolio (all retirement accounts) and a good portion of our taxable accounts are allocated to simplicity (although I have to approximate the US total stock market using the S&P 500, Mid-Cap, and Small-Cap in our retirement accounts 403b/457b/401k). Bogleheads advice really helped me iron that out 4-5 years ago.

CyclingDuo
"Save like a pessimist, invest like an optimist." - Morgan Housel
atdharris
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Re: M1 Finance

Post by atdharris »

manuvns wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:01 pm if you dont need customer service m1 is the best way to invest! especially m1 plus , combined with brokers where you can execute limit orders. borrow from m1 plus buy at other brokers transfer , borrow and repeat .
When you pay interest each month, does M1 take that out of your equities by selling them or do you fund your account with cash to cover it? I am considering putting money at M1 to get the 2% margin. It looks like M1 Plus is free if I sign up before the end of the month.
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cos
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Re: M1 Finance

Post by cos »

atdharris wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:25 pm
manuvns wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:01 pm if you dont need customer service m1 is the best way to invest! especially m1 plus , combined with brokers where you can execute limit orders. borrow from m1 plus buy at other brokers transfer , borrow and repeat .
When you pay interest each month, does M1 take that out of your equities by selling them or do you fund your account with cash to cover it? I am considering putting money at M1 to get the 2% margin. It looks like M1 Plus is free if I sign up before the end of the month.
If there's cash in the account, the interest comes out of that. If there isn't, the interest is simply added onto your margin total.
chris319
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Re: M1 Finance

Post by chris319 »

Fidelity charges 6.875% vs. TD Ameritrade's 8%. Hopefully TD Ameritrade will come down to Fidelity's rate or better.

On a $50,000 debit balance that's $3,437.50 per year at 6.875%.

At 8% it's $4,000.
The only person you have to please in life is yourself.
langlands
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Re: M1 Finance

Post by langlands »

chris319 wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:24 pm Today I had occasion to call my current brokerage, TD Ameritrade.

I found a bug which the TDA rep and I think is a problem with Gainskeeper, not TDA. It seems Gainskeeper is skipping transactions. That's bad because that data ultimately goes to the IRS. The TDA rep was very responsive and attentive and said he would bring the issue up with his manager.

While I was on the phone with TD Ameritrade I asked about getting a break on my margin interest rate. He said it had to be evaluated by the margin department. He asked about other brokerage's margin rates. I had such a chart handy and quoted him 1.55%, 2% and 2.55%. We'll see what happens.

https://www.optimizedportfolio.com/lowe ... s-brokers/
Wow what is this bug in Gainskeeper? This sounds like a huge deal since millions of tax returns could contain errors.
chris319
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Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2021 6:04 pm

Re: M1 Finance

Post by chris319 »

Wow what is this bug in Gainskeeper? This sounds like a huge deal since millions of tax returns could contain errors.
It was skipping transactions. In my particular case it skipped a sell order, so it seemed as though the position was still open.

I made it clear to the TDA rep that this data goes to the IRS and he took special note of it.
The only person you have to please in life is yourself.
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