Lexus or Tesla?

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
alfaspider
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by alfaspider »

newyorker wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:20 pm
alfaspider wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 12:18 pm
newyorker wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 11:56 am
Electric car isnt even close to gas car in terms of convenience.
On a road trip, absolutely. But there is also the countervailing convenience with local usage of never having to stop at gas stations (assuming you can charge at home).
I agree it beats gas car in local commute only assuming charger is at home. Gas car otherwise.
I agree that it will be a while before EVs make much sense for someone who doesn't have home charging available.
AnonJohn
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by AnonJohn »

My experience is probably irrelevant as you seem to be looking up-market. But we love our Prius prime. It's relatively cheap (or was before the pandemic), gets a tax credit, and has 30 miles of electric range. For our use case that's enough, and we only burn gas when we go on road trips, less than once a month. We only charge at home. Plug-in hybrids are a weird narrow middle, but that's the point. Know your use case and buy appropriately. The prime is great for road trips b/c the ICE is absurdly efficient. Total range is more than 500 miles. But ... the car is made to do one thing. Move people efficiently.

The other virtue of an all-electric that I haven't seen come up is maintenance. Teslas in fleets are posting 100's of thousands of miles with not much maintenance. They are simpler machines.

But, know you use case, be able to charge at home.

PS: Before I bought a prime, my retired mother did. While somewhat daunted by the bells and whistles, she has been very happy and makes good use of the charging (visits gas stations only rarely!). Like the OP, possibly her last car (it replaced a mid-90's Prizm ... she may be driving it a while :)
JackoC
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by JackoC »

CPonzi wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 8:41 am
hunoraut wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:01 am
CPonzi wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 6:47 pm It probably feels that way because a lot of Tesla owners are akin to Vegans, Crossfitters, etc... they want to sing their Tesla song from the top of the mountain.
Where do you see that in this thread?
Mainly in the way avid Tesla fans brush off the negatives pointed out by other... sometimes even trying to argue that the negatives are actually a positive (like the range forcing you to take a break to charge). The pro/cons of electric vehicles greatly depend on the owner. I frequently drive long distances to see family and usually only stop when I need to fuel up (about 400 to 500 miles). I don't have to think ahead to where I'm going to stop. I've seen others talk about how they can watch Netflix in their car while waiting (not on this thread)... if I'm sitting in the drivers seat I'd much rather be making progress towards my destination than waiting.

Tesla has really innovated and pushed electric cars to the everyday driver but I'll stay on the sidelines for now. Wait until they or other more established auto makers with a proven track record innovates further. Look at how much the technology has improved in the last 5 years, can't wait to see what's available in 5 more. Until then, I'd buy a brand with a proven track record of reliability, support, and longevity so I can focus on other financial goals.
I agree with not exaggerating people's arguments. However the natural starting point of own situation molds people's arguments about a lot of things. We drive, really, *all* over and there's presumably a reason it's relatively unusual to see a Tesla most places outside the Washington-NY-Boston axis and heavily populated parts of California, very rare over a large % of the area of the country. One reason is they aren't actually that convenient to drive long distances in many places. And there are cultural things underlying it too I believe. It's not exactly the same gap people fight about constantly on outright political/cultural issues, but it's not 100% unrelated either IMO.

But again, if the argument is it would be a huge pain to take a Tesla from NY area to DC area and back, a route I take fairly often: OK that would be an exaggerated anti-EV statement. Charge at the I-95 rest stop in DE, wait some 10's of minutes longer than gassing up, not the end of the world (although there's also the issue of possible waiting to get *to* the charger at peak times, I see people waiting there sometimes, lines at gas stations are less common though also possible). Whereas if somebody says a Tesla is really suitable for the road trips we've done in past few years, that's pretty ridiculous. You have to plan somewhat carefully to get *gas* in some remote parts of the West. With an EV you're either going to convince yourself 'I didn't want to go to that remote area anyway' or admit you don't have the same total freedom of route as with ICE cars, for now.

But again OP said nothing about very long road trips so I am not giving this as reason against Tesla. It could be OP would charge at home almost all the time and then the pro-Tesla's are right: that's easier than gas stations. But OP did put emphasis on reliability and that *is* a reason to prefer Lexus to Tesla from the data AFAIK. And it's not going to be obvious just driving one and seeing how you like it (though that's generally a good idea at some point in deciding on a car). There are a lot of statements on various car threads here about how BMW's are unreliable (we take our relatively new M2 on the long road trips, our older car is a Lexus SUV). Those statements are often exaggerated IMO, but Lexus does have a genuinely outstanding record as a brand on reliability. I am to some degree sacrificing expected reliability for a car I like better. But OP specifically said reliability was a key criterion, and Tesla was second to last in latest CR brand ranking for reliability, not like they just aren't quite Lexus.
Last edited by JackoC on Mon May 03, 2021 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
CPonzi
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by CPonzi »

hunoraut wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 9:11 am
CPonzi wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 8:41 am Mainly in the way avid Tesla fans brush off the negatives pointed out by other... sometimes even trying to argue that the negatives are actually a positive (like the range forcing you to take a break to charge). The pro/cons of electric vehicles greatly depend on the owner. I frequently drive long distances to see family and usually only stop when I need to fuel up (about 400 to 500 miles). I don't have to think ahead to where I'm going to stop. I've seen others talk about how they can watch Netflix in their car while waiting (not on this thread)... if I'm sitting in the drivers seat I'd much rather be making progress towards my destination than waiting.
Who specifically are arguing that negatives are positives and forced breaks are great? It's not productive to argue against arguments that doesn't actually exist.

For me personally, I posit that in the overall context of a long trip, the total stops involved in a Tesla are inconsequential.
Actual counterclaims made in this thread: 50 minute stops - factually untrue; stopping at every 50% - factually untrue; having to "plan" the route - factually untrue. You put your destination in the computer and set off.

Here's an actual trip driving from Denver to Chicago, which isnt exactly like going along populous Californian coast:

Distance: 1600km/1000mi
Time on road: 15+ hours
Suggested stops: 32m, 30m, 14m, 23m, 24m.

The raw driving time itself is equivalent to 2 full working days. If you worked those shifts in California, labor laws would have you take 6 breaks (2 breaks + 1 lunch per day)

This trip has you taking 5 total breaks at an average of <25 minutes.

If you were to drive 6am to 9pm nonstop, how many breaks would you take anyway?
If 5 is incompatible with your driving style, fair game.
For most, this doesn't represent a substantial change.

The other noise people make around this is just silly rhetoric.
1. California labor laws need not apply... we have two drivers so plenty of rest time. Prefer quick stops at highway rest stops as needed.
2. When traveling, I prefer to pick the stopping location depending on how I feel not how the car's battery is doing. If just for fuel, really like the stops that are directly off the interstate. When stopping to eat, like to find local places that are highly rated to try. Once the infrastructure is improved this won't be a problem but now it is. You either have to stop with your Tesla wherever they put the chargers and find something there or stop twice... once to charge and once to eat (unless of course the place you want to stop happens to have a charger - Bonus). I prefer to chose.
3. Your calculations never include the need to possibly wait for a charger. Traveling in California during a busy holiday weekend and I think your stops will be a little more prolonged.

Sounds like you are very happy with your Tesla which is great. Apologies if my joke about Tesla owners are akin to crossfitters/vegans offended, no ill will intended; I just work with some die hard Tesla fans whose cars could part the Red Sea. Thank you for helping drive the innovation by owning and driving one. OP really needs to take how they drive into consideration when deciding between the two options. While it doesn't work for me, it could be exactly what they are looking for. Think we'll have to agree to disagree for now when it comes to the pro/cons of a Tesla... I might join you in the future when the infrastructure and range are improved (though it will likely a Toyota or Lexus depending on long term reliability of Teslas).
sureshoe
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by sureshoe »

All this bickering about charging is so ridiculous.

I personally would never buy an electric car for anything other than commuting. The mapping/planning for charging would be a nuisance. I want to stop and gas up. Period. That's me.

Having said that, I know some people who RELISH the planning. It's part of the ADVENTURE. It's like people who change their own oil or mow their own yard.

The world don't move to the beat of just one drum. What might be right for you, might not be right for some.
alfaspider
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by alfaspider »

sureshoe wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 4:18 pm All this bickering about charging is so ridiculous.

I personally would never buy an electric car for anything other than commuting. The mapping/planning for charging would be a nuisance. I want to stop and gas up. Period. That's me.

Having said that, I know some people who RELISH the planning. It's part of the ADVENTURE. It's like people who change their own oil or mow their own yard.

The world don't move to the beat of just one drum. What might be right for you, might not be right for some.
Fully agree with you that there is a lot of personal preference out there, and what is right for one is not for everyone.

I think the issue of charging can touch a nerve because there's a lot of misinformation and motivated reasoning out there (on both sides). Layer on the political implications with subsidies, environmental regulations, and other debates, and EVs are a recipe for a touchy conversation.
tdmp
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by tdmp »

AnonJohn wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:40 pm My experience is probably irrelevant as you seem to be looking up-market. But we love our Prius prime. It's relatively cheap (or was before the pandemic), gets a tax credit, and has 30 miles of electric range. For our use case that's enough, and we only burn gas when we go on road trips, less than once a month. We only charge at home. Plug-in hybrids are a weird narrow middle, but that's the point. Know your use case and buy appropriately. The prime is great for road trips b/c the ICE is absurdly efficient. Total range is more than 500 miles. But ... the car is made to do one thing. Move people efficiently.

The other virtue of an all-electric that I haven't seen come up is maintenance. Teslas in fleets are posting 100's of thousands of miles with not much maintenance. They are simpler machines.

But, know you use case, be able to charge at home.

PS: Before I bought a prime, my retired mother did. While somewhat daunted by the bells and whistles, she has been very happy and makes good use of the charging (visits gas stations only rarely!). Like the OP, possibly her last car (it replaced a mid-90's Prizm ... she may be driving it a while :)
I have a prius prime also. excellent choice for anyone. downside: 0-60 time: will get there eventually :sharebeer
hunoraut
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by hunoraut »

sureshoe wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 4:18 pm All this bickering about charging is so ridiculous.

I personally would never buy an electric car for anything other than commuting. The mapping/planning for charging would be a nuisance. I want to stop and gas up. Period. That's me.

Having said that, I know some people who RELISH the planning. It's part of the ADVENTURE. It's like people who change their own oil or mow their own yard.

The world don't move to the beat of just one drum. What might be right for you, might not be right for some.
if you dont want to ever have to plug in, thats your preference and your right. just try not to misconstruct a conclusion out of prejudice. charge planning is not a prerequisite of a trip, no more than "planning" to charge your phone or laptop.

you get in and drive. period.
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Just sayin...
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by Just sayin... »

I didn’t see any reference made to this in the multiple pages of this thread, but Lexus has announced several updates to the upcoming LS500h:

https://pressroom.lexus.com/2022-lexus- ... echnology/

I like the car and appreciate the increased efficiency and reliability of Toyota’s hybrid system, but wish there was more headroom, as I am very tall.
Kruser64
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by Kruser64 »

Range not an issue for me. And while I'll admit that ice car reliability has improved over the years, I'm looking forward to my first EV. No gas. No oil. No transmission. Radiator, timing belts/chains, fuel injectors, rods, pistons, o-rings, gaskets, differentials, oil pumps, fuel pumps, spark plugs. Etc. Looking forward to leaving it all behind.

Seems to me that a lot (not all) of the Tesla quality complaints are things like fit and finish, a hair in the paint, and things like that. Zzzzzz. I have been stranded in no man's land more times than I care to think about by the list above.
Vihoo
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by Vihoo »

Just went from a Model 3 to a Model X. My other cars are a Camry Hybrid, and a ML Bluetec (diesel) - so I have options, but I choose not to drive those at all.

I won't buy a non-electric vehicle for a VERY long time if I can help it. And, certainly not buying anything other than Tesla right now.

People telling you not to buy one or claiming otherwise about safety/reliability are people that definitely haven't spent enough time behind the wheel of one.

It's way more advance than anything else out there right now.

The way to look at Tesla is that it probably gets 90% of things in the market right: Safety, reliability, tech, battery range, comfort, looks, "autopilot", software, updates, charging ease, supercharging, holding it's value etc.

Whereas other auto makers might beat Tesla in a few categories with 100% in: Comfort, road noise, reliability...but then be a giant goose egg, or maybe 10-20% when it comes to tech (lane keep assist), battery range (if at all), charging/supercharging ease, software updates, etc.

(Source: I own an X, my dad owns a Y, both my brother-in-laws have Model 3s, and 3 of my cousins have Model 3s.)
vfinx
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by vfinx »

I've tried to convince myself to buy a Tesla for three consecutive purchases now. Charging isn't an issue for me. I even have an unused 240V outlet in my garage that came with the house. I've lost a $100 deposit when I backed out of a Model Y order.

But everytime I've test driven a Tesla, I've found their suspension refinement to be lacking, in terms of comfort. Their cars are tuned way too stiff imho. The Model S seems to be the best of them, and while I'm sure I could eventually get used to it, I'd rather wait for Tesla (or another EV manufacturer) to build something more refined. This is highly personal, so you must test drive and come to your own conclusions.

Regarding charing on trips, I think the supercharger infrastructure that Tesla has built out is amazing. While I agree mostly with the sentiment that problems are over-hyped, there can be some pains. The Thanksgiving rush at the Kettleman City charging station between SF and La for example, has been bad. I imagine Tesla will fix this in time.
hunoraut
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by hunoraut »

vfinx wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 9:56 pm But everytime I've test driven a Tesla, I've found their suspension refinement to be lacking, in terms of comfort. Their cars are tuned way too stiff imho. The Model S seems to be the best of them, and while I'm sure I could eventually get used to it, I'd rather wait for Tesla (or another EV manufacturer) to build something more refined. This is highly personal, so you must test drive and come to your own conclusions.
That's not so much a Tesla thing, but really a fundamental physics issue, solved with $$$ issue. EVs are generally heavier due to the battery pack. Higher weight require stiffer springs to suspend. Then you also need dampers to control this higher energy from higher mass.

You can get around this with more sophisticated active suspension, air-based or magnetic-based, etc. But these are costlier and potentially more problematic down the line.

A simpler solution is simply to fit tires with more supple compound and higher sidewalls for more compliance. Most cars now are trending towards huge wheels with skinny tires for appearance, which is antithetical to the ride. And EV also tend to be shod with more rigid tires to favor range.

So consumers do have a fair amount of control in the ride quality from their tire + wheel selection... most dont exercise it.
sureshoe
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by sureshoe »

hunoraut wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 8:14 pm
sureshoe wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 4:18 pm All this bickering about charging is so ridiculous.

I personally would never buy an electric car for anything other than commuting. The mapping/planning for charging would be a nuisance. I want to stop and gas up. Period. That's me.

Having said that, I know some people who RELISH the planning. It's part of the ADVENTURE. It's like people who change their own oil or mow their own yard.

The world don't move to the beat of just one drum. What might be right for you, might not be right for some.
if you dont want to ever have to plug in, thats your preference and your right. just try not to misconstruct a conclusion out of prejudice. charge planning is not a prerequisite of a trip, no more than "planning" to charge your phone or laptop.

you get in and drive. period.
And this is why our world is devolving into shouting matches. Your statement is simply incorrect. Could it be that you have an opinion that is not actually scientifically verified fact? Yes.

I want to take a little trip in Utah in my Model 3? It adds 6 hours to my trip. Geesh, I'm a pro-EV and now I'm telling you how wrong you are.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/US+Fore ... 925701!3e0

https://www.tesla.com/trips#/?v=M3_2020 ... 17.0672356

Don't tell me I don't have to "trip plan". Of course you do, Tesla literally has a part of their website dedicated to it. And FYI > most people do plan to charge their phones/laptops. On a trip, I take a battery pack for the kids and extra chargers.
stoptothink
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by stoptothink »

sureshoe wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 7:40 am
hunoraut wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 8:14 pm
sureshoe wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 4:18 pm All this bickering about charging is so ridiculous.

I personally would never buy an electric car for anything other than commuting. The mapping/planning for charging would be a nuisance. I want to stop and gas up. Period. That's me.

Having said that, I know some people who RELISH the planning. It's part of the ADVENTURE. It's like people who change their own oil or mow their own yard.

The world don't move to the beat of just one drum. What might be right for you, might not be right for some.
if you dont want to ever have to plug in, thats your preference and your right. just try not to misconstruct a conclusion out of prejudice. charge planning is not a prerequisite of a trip, no more than "planning" to charge your phone or laptop.

you get in and drive. period.
And this is why our world is devolving into shouting matches. Your statement is simply incorrect. Could it be that you have an opinion that is not actually scientifically verified fact? Yes.

I want to take a little trip in Utah in my Model 3? It adds 6 hours to my trip. Geesh, I'm a pro-EV and now I'm telling you how wrong you are.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/US+Fore ... 925701!3e0

https://www.tesla.com/trips#/?v=M3_2020 ... 17.0672356

Don't tell me I don't have to "trip plan". Of course you do, Tesla literally has a part of their website dedicated to it. And FYI > most people do plan to charge their phones/laptops. On a trip, I take a battery pack for the kids and extra chargers.
This discussion never fails to remind me of the development team at my wife's tech employer: bugs are not problems, they are "features". There are pros and cons to everything. EVs have so many advantages, I don't understand why some dismiss the few obvious downsides as if they don't exist or even try to paint them as pros. For us, this is a very clear downside, the areas where we tend to do our longer road trips just don't (yet) have chargers everywhere along the routes and we are (bring food, eat in the car, bring power bank) no stopping road trippers. It would totally change how we do these trips, not in a positive way. Nonetheless, I am similarly very pro-EV and am planning on an EV for our next car purchase because they are simply a better solution for our day-to-day transportation needs.
alfaspider
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by alfaspider »

vfinx wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 9:56 pm

But everytime I've test driven a Tesla, I've found their suspension refinement to be lacking, in terms of comfort. Their cars are tuned way too stiff imho. The Model S seems to be the best of them, and while I'm sure I could eventually get used to it, I'd rather wait for Tesla (or another EV manufacturer) to build something more refined. This is highly personal, so you must test drive and come to your own conclusions.
This is very much a personal preference item. I thought the Model 3 I drove was way too floaty and soft, but my baseline is performance oriented cars. I do agree, however, that suspension setup is a bit of an afterthought for Tesla. People have made massive improvements in performance and comfort (sometimes at the same time) with aftermarket suspensions.
alfaspider
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by alfaspider »

stoptothink wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 7:50 am
sureshoe wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 7:40 am
hunoraut wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 8:14 pm
sureshoe wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 4:18 pm All this bickering about charging is so ridiculous.

I personally would never buy an electric car for anything other than commuting. The mapping/planning for charging would be a nuisance. I want to stop and gas up. Period. That's me.

Having said that, I know some people who RELISH the planning. It's part of the ADVENTURE. It's like people who change their own oil or mow their own yard.

The world don't move to the beat of just one drum. What might be right for you, might not be right for some.
if you dont want to ever have to plug in, thats your preference and your right. just try not to misconstruct a conclusion out of prejudice. charge planning is not a prerequisite of a trip, no more than "planning" to charge your phone or laptop.

you get in and drive. period.
And this is why our world is devolving into shouting matches. Your statement is simply incorrect. Could it be that you have an opinion that is not actually scientifically verified fact? Yes.

I want to take a little trip in Utah in my Model 3? It adds 6 hours to my trip. Geesh, I'm a pro-EV and now I'm telling you how wrong you are.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/US+Fore ... 925701!3e0

https://www.tesla.com/trips#/?v=M3_2020 ... 17.0672356

Don't tell me I don't have to "trip plan". Of course you do, Tesla literally has a part of their website dedicated to it. And FYI > most people do plan to charge their phones/laptops. On a trip, I take a battery pack for the kids and extra chargers.
This discussion never fails to remind me of the development team at my wife's tech employer: bugs are not problems, they are "features". There are pros and cons to everything. EVs have so many advantages, I don't understand why some dismiss the few obvious downsides as if they don't exist or even try to paint them as pros. For us, this is a very clear downside, the areas where we tend to do our longer road trips just don't (yet) have chargers everywhere along the routes and we are (bring food, eat in the car, bring power bank) no stopping road trippers. It would totally change how we do these trips, not in a positive way. Nonetheless, I am similarly very pro-EV and am planning on an EV for our next car purchase because they are simply a better solution for our day-to-day transportation needs.
I said earlier in this post, that EVs are not for someone who regularly takes long road trips. But I also think many people have an unnecessary amount of anxiety about road trip performance. A lot of people may take one trip a year (tops) that requires relying on public chargers. For once a year, the downside of having to stop a bit more is not material in the context of the overall ownership experience. People buying a gas car because of their hypothetical road trips are often in the same category of people buying a pickup truck because they may hypothetically need to haul lumber for a home improvement project some day.
cainxinth
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by cainxinth »

You know, it's funny. Teslas are expensive, unreliable, and still lack a critical mass of nationwide charging infrastructure, yet their owners are almost uniformly hype about them. Ask a friend with a Tesla about it and they will admit the car has had issues, but will rave about how good the customer service was and how quickly they were resolved.

Personally, I'd rather my car not break in the first place. I'll keep buying Japanese and Korean car brands until someone else can match their rock solid reliability and low prices.
bgf
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by bgf »

alfaspider wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 8:09 am
vfinx wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 9:56 pm

But everytime I've test driven a Tesla, I've found their suspension refinement to be lacking, in terms of comfort. Their cars are tuned way too stiff imho. The Model S seems to be the best of them, and while I'm sure I could eventually get used to it, I'd rather wait for Tesla (or another EV manufacturer) to build something more refined. This is highly personal, so you must test drive and come to your own conclusions.
This is very much a personal preference item. I thought the Model 3 I drove was way too floaty and soft, but my baseline is performance oriented cars. I do agree, however, that suspension setup is a bit of an afterthought for Tesla. People have made massive improvements in performance and comfort (sometimes at the same time) with aftermarket suspensions.
name checks out.
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newyorker
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by newyorker »

cainxinth wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 8:33 am You know, it's funny. Teslas are expensive, unreliable, and still lack a critical mass of nationwide charging infrastructure, yet their owners are almost uniformly hype about them. Ask a friend with a Tesla about it and they will admit the car has had issues, but will rave about how good the customer service was and how quickly they were resolved.

Personally, I'd rather my car not break in the first place. I'll keep buying Japanese and Korean car brands until someone else can match their rock solid reliability and low prices.
Tesla fandom is close to a cult. Any problems with tesla will be covered up as its advantage. Ive driven my friends tesla for few days. My impression was that its an oversized electric scooter.
sureshoe
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by sureshoe »

stoptothink wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 7:50 am This discussion never fails to remind me of the development team at my wife's tech employer: bugs are not problems, they are "features". There are pros and cons to everything. EVs have so many advantages, I don't understand why some dismiss the few obvious downsides as if they don't exist or even try to paint them as pros. For us, this is a very clear downside, the areas where we tend to do our longer road trips just don't (yet) have chargers everywhere along the routes and we are (bring food, eat in the car, bring power bank) no stopping road trippers. It would totally change how we do these trips, not in a positive way. Nonetheless, I am similarly very pro-EV and am planning on an EV for our next car purchase because they are simply a better solution for our day-to-day transportation needs.
LOL, as someone manages a developer org, I can sympathize. I have had so many engineers try to argue "why the user was wrong". Sorry, they're the user.

You're exactly right. I want to get a Tesla. I hate going to gas stations, and for my most of my uses, I doubt I would ever need to charge outside the home. But don't tell me "you can charge anywhere and don't need to think about it". Or, "forcing people to stop and charge for 30 minutes is a good thing!"

My parents are 180 miles away from us. There is 1 charging station in Columbus in the middle of the trip. You have to stop once for ~20 minute and on the way back for ~40 minutes (assuming I don't do some charging at my parents on their 110v, which is a huge inefficient hassle). That sucks. Compare that to ONE 10 minute stop for gas on the way home while the kids get a snack and stretch their legs?

Again, you're 1000% right - EVs have TONS of value. For a family that takes these types of trips, I simply would have an ICE too.

Could it be... people have different NEEDS? :) :) :)
alfaspider
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by alfaspider »

cainxinth wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 8:33 am You know, it's funny. Teslas are expensive, unreliable, and still lack a critical mass of nationwide charging infrastructure, yet their owners are almost uniformly hype about them. Ask a friend with a Tesla about it and they will admit the car has had issues, but will rave about how good the customer service was and how quickly they were resolved.

Personally, I'd rather my car not break in the first place. I'll keep buying Japanese and Korean car brands until someone else can match their rock solid reliability and low prices.
I don't own a Tesla, but I've driven a few. The hype is mostly because the product outweighs these disadvantages in the minds of most owners. The EV driving experience is very different from the ICE driving experience in a way that can be hard to appreciate if you haven't experienced it. I can say driving a Tesla Model 3 LR made my car feel antiquated and slow. I don't think this is necessarily about Tesla per-se, but there are only just now starting to be EVs in the $40-80k price bracket that legitimately compete with it in terms of range and performance.

I'd also say that the reliability ratings often don't tell the whole story (that goes for every brand). Different models, and even different model years, can have wildly different reliability. For example, the Model X has always had a lot of problems. Same with early build Model 3s and Model Ys. Your experience is likely to be much different for later build models. Finally, there's a difference between a minor problem with an easy software fix and one that leaves you stranded by the side of the road. The former tends not to turn people off to the same degree.

Finally, one thing about Tesla specifically people like is that it doesn't have the traditional dealership experience. Being able to just place an order online for a car instead of having to negotiate across the table from someone is what a lot of people want.
hunoraut
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by hunoraut »

sureshoe wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 7:40 am And this is why our world is devolving into shouting matches. Your statement is simply incorrect. Could it be that you have an opinion that is not actually scientifically verified fact? Yes.

I want to take a little trip in Utah in my Model 3? It adds 6 hours to my trip. Geesh, I'm a pro-EV and now I'm telling you how wrong you are.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/US+Fore ... 925701!3e0

https://www.tesla.com/trips#/?v=M3_2020 ... 17.0672356

Don't tell me I don't have to "trip plan". Of course you do, Tesla literally has a part of their website dedicated to it. And FYI > most people do plan to charge their phones/laptops. On a trip, I take a battery pack for the kids and extra chargers.
I'm not shouting, so what does the world does is not germane to this conversation.

I don't claim "not planning" as a fact, so neither is the declaration that "EV must plan trips". I'm offering that planning has not been and is not a necessity, from actual experience, countering the claim that it must be, from people with zero experience. I've been deliberate and explicit in my posts when using the word "facts". Spending 50 minutes to charge = not true. Needing to charge at 50% SoC = not true.

Tesla's website is to promote the comprehensiveness of their charging network, and for prospective buyers to gauge the suitability of the vehicles. Take a strawpoll of any Tesla owner group anywhere - how many of them uses that website to plan their trips?

We don't need to declare our allegiances if trying to talk earnestly or objectively. So it doesn't matter if you are pro-EV. And it shouldn't matter whether I am or not either. (though in the spirit of oversharing, almost all my cars have had 3 pedals, manual gear shift, and 8000+ redline).

I'm not incentivized by what strangers do with their car choices. If I see a public discussion with some radically misinformed opinion, Im not against participating in it. I dont suggest EVs for people without home charging. I dont suggest lower-range EVs for people going on long trips. You linked to the cheapest, lowest trim and lowest range model that Tesla currently offers (3 SR+). That opinion and experience does not represent the entire Tesla lineup, or the entire EV space at large.
alfaspider
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by alfaspider »

sureshoe wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 8:41 am
stoptothink wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 7:50 am This discussion never fails to remind me of the development team at my wife's tech employer: bugs are not problems, they are "features". There are pros and cons to everything. EVs have so many advantages, I don't understand why some dismiss the few obvious downsides as if they don't exist or even try to paint them as pros. For us, this is a very clear downside, the areas where we tend to do our longer road trips just don't (yet) have chargers everywhere along the routes and we are (bring food, eat in the car, bring power bank) no stopping road trippers. It would totally change how we do these trips, not in a positive way. Nonetheless, I am similarly very pro-EV and am planning on an EV for our next car purchase because they are simply a better solution for our day-to-day transportation needs.
LOL, as someone manages a developer org, I can sympathize. I have had so many engineers try to argue "why the user was wrong". Sorry, they're the user.

You're exactly right. I want to get a Tesla. I hate going to gas stations, and for my most of my uses, I doubt I would ever need to charge outside the home. But don't tell me "you can charge anywhere and don't need to think about it". Or, "forcing people to stop and charge for 30 minutes is a good thing!"

My parents are 180 miles away from us. There is 1 charging station in Columbus in the middle of the trip. You have to stop once for ~20 minute and on the way back for ~40 minutes (assuming I don't do some charging at my parents on their 110v, which is a huge inefficient hassle). That sucks. Compare that to ONE 10 minute stop for gas on the way home while the kids get a snack and stretch their legs?

Again, you're 1000% right - EVs have TONS of value. For a family that takes these types of trips, I simply would have an ICE too.

Could it be... people have different NEEDS? :) :) :)
With a long range Model 3, you'd only need to stop once on the way home, which it sounds like you would do anyways. Or, if you can swing a long range Model S (Range of 412 miles), you could avoid stopping to charge at all. These higher performance EVs are beyond what most folks are willing to spend, but I think cars with that sort of range will become the norm in another 10 years.
Kruser64
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by Kruser64 »

alfaspider wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 8:41 am Finally, one thing about Tesla specifically people like is that it doesn't have the traditional dealership experience. Being able to just place an order online for a car instead of having to negotiate across the table from someone is what a lot of people want.
Yeah, and the fact that multiple car dealership associations keep trying to get Tesla banned in their states via legislation tells me a lot about who is willing to compete on merit.
sureshoe
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by sureshoe »

hunoraut wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 8:43 am I'm not shouting, so what does the world does is not germane to this conversation.

I don't claim "not planning" as a fact, so neither is the declaration that "EV must plan trips". I'm offering that planning has not been and is not a necessity, from actual experience, countering the claim that it must be, from people with zero experience. I've been deliberate and explicit in my posts when using the word "facts". Spending 50 minutes to charge = not true. Needing to charge at 50% SoC = not true.

Tesla's website is to promote the comprehensiveness of their charging network, and for prospective buyers to gauge the suitability of the vehicles. Take a strawpoll of any Tesla owner group anywhere - how many of them uses that website to plan their trips?

We don't need to declare our allegiances if trying to talk earnestly or objectively. So it doesn't matter if you are pro-EV. And it shouldn't matter whether I am or not either. (though in the spirit of oversharing, almost all my cars have had 3 pedals, manual gear shift, and 8000+ redline).

I'm not incentivized by what strangers do with their car choices. If I see a public discussion with some radically misinformed opinion, Im not against participating in it. I dont suggest EVs for people without home charging. I dont suggest lower-range EVs for people going on long trips. You linked to the cheapest, lowest trim and lowest range model that Tesla currently offers (3 SR+). That opinion and experience does not represent the entire Tesla lineup, or the entire EV space at large.
You literally wrote these words: charge planning is not a prerequisite of a trip, no more than "planning" to charge your phone or laptop.

You're calling my view a "radically misinformed opinion", when you are demonstrably making false statements.

This is the virtual "shouting".

At least you have now modified your original, blanket claim that "you just get in and drive".
sureshoe
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by sureshoe »

Kruser64 wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 10:09 am
alfaspider wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 8:41 am Finally, one thing about Tesla specifically people like is that it doesn't have the traditional dealership experience. Being able to just place an order online for a car instead of having to negotiate across the table from someone is what a lot of people want.
Yeah, and the fact that multiple car dealership associations keep trying to get Tesla banned in their states via legislation tells me a lot about who is willing to compete on merit.
This is less about the merit of the car and more about the franchise model. You're seeing this continue to melt away as Carvana/others enter the market. It was an eye opener to me when all this drama first surfaced.
InvestOverSpeculate
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by InvestOverSpeculate »

newyorker wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 1:25 am No brainer lexus. Much better build quality and suitable for long distance trips... imagine doing that with electric vehicle where you have to plan out path to where chargers are.

Also, the attention desperate tesla owners in social media make me not want to be a part of them 😎
Tesla / Superchargers are fantastic. Charge every 2nd or 3rd stop while getting a meal, stretch legs. EVs of any kind are so much more relaxing than ICE. I can probably do twice the distance on roadtrips before getting tired.

So little to go wrong, little/no maintenance. Every time I get in a an ICE I dread it. Smelly, jerky, laggy.

Lots of the FUD about 'reliabilty' is cosmetic when delivered and largely in the past. Actual reliability - what goes wrong on a new Tesla - there's not much to go wrong, compared to thousands of moving parts (ICE), around 70 chips/microcontrollers on an old tech car (ICE or an EV where it's not been optimised).

NB. Tesla doesn't advertise, it has no dealers that advertise, so the media are very anti.
InvestOverSpeculate
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by InvestOverSpeculate »

dbr wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:51 am
joebruin77 wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:44 am
My Tesla Wall Connector charges up to 44 miles per hour.
That's funny. From a physics point of view it is weird to see a number with dimensions and units of velocity but it is not velocity at all but a rate of delivery of something. I have visions of maybe Reddy-Kilowatt or maybe the Road Runner charging (pun) around.
It makes sense on a usage level.

It reflects the vehicle's efficiency in driving as well as charge power/energy.

Ordered by Rapid Charge speed https://ev-database.uk/#sort:path~type~ ... g:number=9

eg in UK - 10 hours charging (overnight at home) would provide 260 miles of range top-up for M3SR+ (if it does that much)

Charging Point Max. Power Power Time Rate
Wall Plug (2.3 kW) 230V / 1x10A 2.3 kW 25h45m 8 mph
1-phase 16A (3.7 kW) 230V / 1x16A 3.7 kW 16 hours 13 mph
1-phase 32A (7.4 kW) 230V / 1x32A 7.4 kW 8 hours 26 mph
3-phase 16A (11 kW) 400V / 3x16A 11 kW 5h30m 38 mph
3-phase 32A (22 kW) 400V / 3x16A 11 kW † 5h30m 38 mph

Audi etron 55 comparison
1-phase 32A (7.4 kW) 230V / 1x32A 7.4 kW 13h45m 15 mph

For superchargers (roadtrips)
M3SR+ (slowest charging Tesla?
Fastcharge Power (max) 170 kW DC
Fastcharge Time (21->168 mi) 21 min
Fastcharge Speed 420 mph

My autobahn (unlimited speed) technique is go fast, charge more often when % charge left is low, charge until charge rate slows (maybe 50-60%) or when we come back from toilets, coffee etc. You can go to 0% when travelling. You stop more for human needs than charging. At home keep battery between 50-80%.

For roadtrips, set charge to 90% overnight and in the morning, set limit to 100% plus pre-heat/cool car using external power. Always defrosted, ready to go.

To the OP - which Tesla? For Model 3/Y - I would choose Long range, plenty fast enough, all wheel drive (oil/ice), smaller wheels, less chance of a puncture and in MY opinion better ride than Performance. SR+ might be fine, but Long range gives you better sound system, treats etc. Model Y better for in/out access.
sureshoe
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by sureshoe »

alfaspider wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 8:50 am With a long range Model 3, you'd only need to stop once on the way home, which it sounds like you would do anyways. Or, if you can swing a long range Model S (Range of 412 miles), you could avoid stopping to charge at all. These higher performance EVs are beyond what most folks are willing to spend, but I think cars with that sort of range will become the norm in another 10 years.
I generally agree with you. The tech and charging infrastructure is continuing to evolve, and I expect costs and convenience to continue to be improved.

And yeah, a lot of this is just preference. Sure, I'd like a big $100k car, but yeesh... that's some dollars :)
hunoraut
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by hunoraut »

sureshoe wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 10:22 am You're calling my view a "radically misinformed opinion", when you are demonstrably making false statements.

This is the virtual "shouting".

At least you have now modified your original, blanket claim that "you just get in and drive".
I said, explicitly and more than once, the claims about Teslas needing to charge 50 minutes, needing to stop at every 50% SoC, are false and far from reality. You don't have to interpret everything as a direct personal attack.

Get in and drive is true for most of the entire Tesla lineup (3SR+ represents <15% of all Models 3s), and hence most owners, and especially for most actual drives initiated. That claim is not modified. Understanding context helps.
JackoC
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by JackoC »

InvestOverSpeculate wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 10:40 am
newyorker wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 1:25 am No brainer lexus. Much better build quality and suitable for long distance trips... imagine doing that with electric vehicle where you have to plan out path to where chargers are.

Also, the attention desperate tesla owners in social media make me not want to be a part of them 😎
So little to go wrong, little/no maintenance. Every time I get in a an ICE I dread it. Smelly, jerky, laggy.

Lots of the FUD about 'reliabilty' is cosmetic when delivered and largely in the past. Actual reliability - what goes wrong on a new Tesla - there's not much to go wrong, compared to thousands of moving parts (ICE), around 70 chips/microcontrollers on an old tech car (ICE or an EV where it's not been optimised).
Again the simplicity argument should allow to me to say my 1967 VW Beetle was highly reliability compared to a, truly, vastly more complicated Lexus ES. Problem is, I'd be spouting nonsense. The simple Beetle had enough of its fewer features go out of adjustment or fail to be obviously less reliable. And I doubt many people who actually know about cars deny this, past simpler ICE cars were less reliable. Meaning that simplicity causes unreliability? No, but the expertise of makers in insuring reliability has increased faster than complexity. But Tesla is a new company which hasn't caught up on this, so their 'simple' vehicles do poorly in reliability surveys. There's nothing shocking about this IMO.

As to it being in the past, what's the evidence from objective sources? I guess it *will* be at some point as Tesla becomes 100% a real car company. But again I point to conversations on this forum among ICE brands which give eg. Lexus a lot of credit for a *long track record* of outstanding reliability. Counters that 'GM is about to match them', 'it's just minor stuff' or 'Consumer Reports is biased' are justifiably laughed off, generally. Tesla is emphasizing improving their position on reliability/support if an at all well managed company which I assume it is, but simply does not have a long track record of being very good at this as of now. TMC/Lexus does. That's a clear difference.

There's nothing wrong with being a big fan of a particular product. But waving off Tesla's record so far on reliability/product support is blowing smoke. And when you blow smoke it hurts the credibility of the other valid arguments one can make in favor of Tesla.

Back on charging/range, as much as people argue back and forth past each out on this seems to me fairly obvious. For most use of cars in highly populated parts of the US (where most live, even if Tesla's are obviously much more common in two of those areas than anywhere else: heavily populated parts of CA and the Northeast Corridor), which means mainly short trips (often within a Leaf's range let alone a Tesla's), assuming a home charger, the EV is *more* convenient to 'fuel' than the ICE. Likewise on a little longer trips within the Tesla's excellent range for an EV. For trips beyond that in populated areas, along interstates, it's a preference issue if waiting 10's of minutes (maybe longer sometimes in peak travel times with a line at the charger) is a big deal or not, and how much you like it otherwise. For completely free wheeling road tripping all over the US though a Tesla just isn't suitable as of now, or as another poster said unless the person relishes tackling inconvenient issues. Some people never do long road trips, or might only slightly prefer them to fly/rent-a-car trips, so can just switch to the latter, no big deal. And obviously people can have more than one car. But the bulk of miles on our newer car is from very long road trips.
mrmass
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Location: MA

Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by mrmass »

So many great answers on both sides. Me I'd buy a car (gas or electric) from only a car company. IMO Tesla isn't a car company. Think tech company, that likes to go the moon, bore tunnels, and buy bitcoin that happens to make cars.

Lexus makes cars and has for a while. Very good cars. If I'm buying electric, it's from a car company.
alfaspider
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by alfaspider »

mrmass wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 11:29 am So many great answers on both sides. Me I'd buy a car (gas or electric) from only a car company. IMO Tesla isn't a car company. Think tech company, that likes to go the moon, bore tunnels, and buy bitcoin that happens to make cars.

Lexus makes cars and has for a while. Very good cars. If I'm buying electric, it's from a car company.
Tesla, SpaceX, and the Boring company are three different companies. The only thing Tesla does besides making cars is sell solar panels (due to the solar city merger).

But there's nothing wrong with preferring the older car makers. For better or worse, Tesla does things differently (like using a giant center screen for everything instead of having switches and buttons). For me, that's not a big problem, but for my mom? She'd driver herself nuts figuring out the Tesla interface.
sureshoe
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by sureshoe »

hunoraut wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 11:19 am
sureshoe wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 10:22 am You're calling my view a "radically misinformed opinion", when you are demonstrably making false statements.

This is the virtual "shouting".

At least you have now modified your original, blanket claim that "you just get in and drive".
I said, explicitly and more than once, the claims about Teslas needing to charge 50 minutes, needing to stop at every 50% SoC, are false and far from reality. You don't have to interpret everything as a direct personal attack.

Get in and drive is true for most of the entire Tesla lineup (3SR+ represents <15% of all Models 3s), and hence most owners, and especially for most actual drives initiated. That claim is not modified. Understanding context helps.
If people aren't understanding you, that's a you problem:
if you dont want to ever have to plug in, thats your preference and your right. just try not to misconstruct a conclusion out of prejudice. charge planning is not a prerequisite of a trip, no more than "planning" to charge your phone or laptop.

you get in and drive. period.
I mean, you LITERALLY accused me of having some "prejudice" against Tesla or EV or something.

And you say I didn't understand context? You didn't provide it. You have now added some qualifiers... EVs are all this great stuff, except when they're not.

Teslas don't need 50 minute charges? Again - wrong. You keep posting factually incorrect statements.
lightheir
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by lightheir »

mrmass wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 11:29 am So many great answers on both sides. Me I'd buy a car (gas or electric) from only a car company. IMO Tesla isn't a car company. Think tech company, that likes to go the moon, bore tunnels, and buy bitcoin that happens to make cars.

Lexus makes cars and has for a while. Very good cars. If I'm buying electric, it's from a car company.
This is a seriously ridiculous statment. Tesla isn't an electric car company?!

Ok,then, what it is? A computer company? A solar company? An electric battery company?

And yes, I'm fully aware that for awhile ALL their profits came from carbon-offset sales, but it's still utterly ridiculous to say that Tesla is a carbon-offset company rather than a car company.

It's not hard. Tesla IS the PRE-EMINENT electric car company of ALL TIME as of now. If you dislike electric cars, or prefer gas cars, that's fine, just say so. But to say Tesla isn't an electric car company is ludicrous.
lightheir
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by lightheir »

mrmass wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 11:29 am So many great answers on both sides. Me I'd buy a car (gas or electric) from only a car company. IMO Tesla isn't a car company. Think tech company, that likes to go the moon, bore tunnels, and buy bitcoin that happens to make cars.

Lexus makes cars and has for a while. Very good cars. If I'm buying electric, it's from a car company.
This is a seriously ridiculous statment. Tesla isn't an car company?!

Ok,then, what it is? A computer company? A solar company? An electric battery company?

And yes, I'm fully aware that for awhile ALL their profits came from carbon-offset sales, but it's still utterly ridiculous to say that Tesla is a carbon-offset company rather than a car company.

It's not hard. Tesla IS the PRE-EMINENT electric CAR company of ALL TIME as of now. They make CARS. Their technology is specific to CARS. Without the end-product of a CAR, Tesla would not be able to continue as is.

If you dislike electric cars, or prefer gas cars, that's fine, just say so. But to say Tesla isn't an electric car company is ludicrous.
newyorker
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by newyorker »

Problem with tesla is you dont get to use full use. You only use approx 50-60 percent of battery capacity thats what i meant hunoraut. Doesnt mwan you need to charge at 50 percent. You have to go usually from 70 to 20 then charge 20min and go back to 70. Rinse and repeat. Which is a pain no matter how tesla fanboys try to romanticize it.
hunoraut
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by hunoraut »

JackoC wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 11:22 am Again the simplicity argument should allow to me to say my 1967 VW Beetle was highly reliability compared to a, truly, vastly more complicated Lexus ES. Problem is, I'd be spouting nonsense. The simple Beetle had enough of its fewer features go out of adjustment or fail to be obviously less reliable. And I doubt many people who actually know about cars deny this, past simpler ICE cars were less reliable. Meaning that simplicity causes unreliability?
You need to normalize for era, different manufacturer and their practices, etc. Compare today's "complicated" Lexus ES with an equally complicated Fiat (proxy for complexity = parts or features count?)? Or today's relatively simple Mercedes C class manufactured in multiple folds of Mercedes S class. Steel springs vs air suspension. 2 wheel drive vs AWD. Fixed rear axle or rear-steer axle.

It's not at all unreasonable prima facie that simplicity means having less things to go wrong. 1 forward gear instead of 9. Energy delivered from an array of cells (where one or more can die) to simple magnet motor, rather than relying on pumps, injectors, airflow sensors, valvetrain, ignition packs and controls, etc.

In my rough recollection, Consumer Report had gone back and forth on Tesla, issuing yoyoing high and low recommendations on the brand. Im not a conspiracy theorist so I dont bother following exactly what and why. Just pointing out that it all depends on what you data you measure and collect -- frequency of drivetrain failure? weighted by severity? is it an unreliable event if a 12v battery dies prematurely? or if a trunk latch fails? or power window switch gets stuck?
sureshoe wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 12:18 pm I mean, you LITERALLY accused me of having some "prejudice" against Tesla or EV or something.

Teslas don't need 50 minute charges? Again - wrong. You keep posting factually incorrect statements.
I am completely disinterested in who you are and what prejudices you may hold and why. I said if people post radically wrong statements, whether out of prejudice or malice, they shouldn't expect those statements to go unchallenged.

re: 50 minutes charging. I said in in post #p5982012, verbatim:
The typical charging session for a Model 3 for mid-trip continuance is 25-35 minutes.
If you consider that wrong, that people charge for 50 minutes instead, feel free to challenge that by way of strawpoll of owners here or elsewhere as is your prerogative. I dont mind and I dont care.
alfaspider
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by alfaspider »

newyorker wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 12:52 pm Problem with tesla is you dont get to use full use. You only use approx 50-60 percent of battery capacity thats what i meant hunoraut. Doesnt mwan you need to charge at 50 percent. You have to go usually from 70 to 20 then charge 20min and go back to 70. Rinse and repeat. Which is a pain no matter how tesla fanboys try to romanticize it.
I've been pretty clear that Teslas (and EVs in general) only make sense if you can home charge and have a normal length commute. But if you can, this isn't really an issue. For regular 30 mile round trip commutes, a 350 mile long range Model 3 will last a week on a charge, even keeping the battery between 20% and 80%. Plugging it in once a week in your garage is not much of an inconvenience. For the couple times a year when you do longer drives, you DO actually charge it up to 100%, and CAN run it down closer to 0%. Using the full battery is only a problem if you are constantly doing it.
JackoC
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by JackoC »

hunoraut wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 1:25 pm
JackoC wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 11:22 am Again the simplicity argument should allow to me to say my 1967 VW Beetle was highly reliability compared to a, truly, vastly more complicated Lexus ES. Problem is, I'd be spouting nonsense. The simple Beetle had enough of its fewer features go out of adjustment or fail to be obviously less reliable. And I doubt many people who actually know about cars deny this, past simpler ICE cars were less reliable. Meaning that simplicity causes unreliability?
You need to normalize for era, different manufacturer and their practices, etc. Compare today's "complicated" Lexus ES with an equally complicated Fiat (proxy for complexity = parts or features count?)? Or today's relatively simple Mercedes C class manufactured in multiple folds of Mercedes S class. Steel springs vs air suspension. 2 wheel drive vs AWD. Fixed rear axle or rear-steer axle.

It's not at all unreasonable prima facie that simplicity means having less things to go wrong. 1 forward gear instead of 9. Energy delivered from an array of cells (where one or more can die) to simple magnet motor, rather than relying on pumps, injectors, airflow sensors, valvetrain, ignition packs and controls, etc.

In my rough recollection, Consumer Report had gone back and forth on Tesla, issuing yoyoing high and low recommendations on the brand. Im not a conspiracy theorist so I dont bother following exactly what and why. Just pointing out that it all depends on what you data you measure and collect -- frequency of drivetrain failure? weighted by severity? is it an unreliable event if a 12v battery dies prematurely? or if a trunk latch fails? or power window switch gets stuck?
What you need to 'normalize' for is the organizational ability to 'engineer in' reliability at a given level of complexity. The real car companies had a particular level of ability to do that ca. 1967. Now they have a much higher capability, therefore far more complicated 2020 ICE cars are nonetheless far more reliable than my very simple '67 Bug, that's the point. Tesla isn't yet a totally real car company. Despite the remarkable achievements of the company, the organization Tesla can't match the organization Toyota Motor Corp in that respect. Therefore despite a conceptually less complex product, Tesla cannot match TMC brands on reliability or even come close. It's not very surprising. Going from zero to major automaker is a herculean task, the reason so few companies have done in recent decades (another example would be Hyundai...with serious quality/reliability problems along the way, now overcome, but Hyundai has been doing it for decades now altogether including when they just sold cars in the ROK).

On Consumer Reports being 'up and down' no there's no real comparison about how Lexus does in their *reliability ratings* vs Tesla. CR *overall scores* of some Tesla products have been high, like when Model S was given a 99 (or was it 100?) but then for a time they would not even recommend the model at all based on reliability problems.

On 'minor stuff' this also does not wash IMO. It's not as if the much lower number of problems with Lexus models are mostly blown engines, they are mostly 'minor stuff' also. In general problems with cars nowadays tend to be 'minor stuff', but which is often quite annoying stuff, stuff you have to take the car back to get looked at, and then if the manufacturer is weak in product support (like Tesla, so far) it's more of a hassle. And non-functional build quality problems are still a problem, to me: I want very high build quality if I'm shelling out serious money on a new car.

There are loads of wonderful cars now in terms of features and performance if everything goes well, definitely including Tesla. In that context I see no real downside to avoiding makes or models with bad reliability records per CR. I agree we can't be 100% sure the CR result is totally scientific, free from bias, 'weighted exactly correctly' (whatever that means), etc. I just don't see the reason to brush off those findings as some Tesla fans seem to want to. I've ended up sorry in (non-Tesla) cases where I have done that.
PharmerBrown
Posts: 133
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Location: Pennsylvania

Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by PharmerBrown »

newyorker wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 8:38 am
cainxinth wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 8:33 am You know, it's funny. Teslas are expensive, unreliable, and still lack a critical mass of nationwide charging infrastructure, yet their owners are almost uniformly hype about them. Ask a friend with a Tesla about it and they will admit the car has had issues, but will rave about how good the customer service was and how quickly they were resolved.

Personally, I'd rather my car not break in the first place. I'll keep buying Japanese and Korean car brands until someone else can match their rock solid reliability and low prices.
Tesla fandom is close to a cult. Any problems with tesla will be covered up as its advantage. Ive driven my friends tesla for few days. My impression was that its an oversized electric scooter.
I refer to my buddies Tesla as a really fast golf cart. Wish I could hang my leg out the side.
hunoraut
Posts: 395
Joined: Sun May 31, 2020 11:39 am

Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by hunoraut »

JackoC wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 8:47 am What you need to 'normalize' for is the organizational ability to 'engineer in' reliability at a given level of complexity. The real car companies had a particular level of ability to do that ca. 1967. Now they have a much higher capability, therefore far more complicated 2020 ICE cars are nonetheless far more reliable than my very simple '67 Bug, that's the point. Tesla isn't yet a totally real car company. Despite the remarkable achievements of the company, the organization Tesla can't match the organization Toyota Motor Corp in that respect. Therefore despite a conceptually less complex product, Tesla cannot match TMC brands on reliability or even come close. It's not very surprising. Going from zero to major automaker is a herculean task, the reason so few companies have done in recent decades (another example would be Hyundai...with serious quality/reliability problems along the way, now overcome, but Hyundai has been doing it for decades now altogether including when they just sold cars in the ROK).

On Consumer Reports being 'up and down' no there's no real comparison about how Lexus does in their *reliability ratings* vs Tesla. CR *overall scores* of some Tesla products have been high, like when Model S was given a 99 (or was it 100?) but then for a time they would not even recommend the model at all based on reliability problems.

On 'minor stuff' this also does not wash IMO. It's not as if the much lower number of problems with Lexus models are mostly blown engines, they are mostly 'minor stuff' also. In general problems with cars nowadays tend to be 'minor stuff', but which is often quite annoying stuff, stuff you have to take the car back to get looked at, and then if the manufacturer is weak in product support (like Tesla, so far) it's more of a hassle. And non-functional build quality problems are still a problem, to me: I want very high build quality if I'm shelling out serious money on a new car.

There are loads of wonderful cars now in terms of features and performance if everything goes well, definitely including Tesla. In that context I see no real downside to avoiding makes or models with bad reliability records per CR. I agree we can't be 100% sure the CR result is totally scientific, free from bias, 'weighted exactly correctly' (whatever that means), etc. I just don't see the reason to brush off those findings as some Tesla fans seem to want to. I've ended up sorry in (non-Tesla) cases where I have done that.

This is not about brushing or washing an issue of any brand or product, but more about understanding specific products and ratings processes in-depth, that informs a buyer much more than a single rating - any single rating.

One can appreciate that Toyota introduced and popularized Total Production System decades ago and is largely synonymous with reliability, but one should further know that buying a Toyota Yaris means buying a Mazda vehicle, and buying a Toyota Supra is actually buying a vehicle designed by BMW, with almost all components by BMW, assembled by contract manufacturer for BMW (Magna). Would you superimpose Toyota's CR 'history' to that? If not, would you use BMW's, and what aspect of it? I'll tell you that motor and transmission are some of the finest in production, but the water pump and fuel pump has a habit of p**ping itself, which mine once did and left me stranded.

Likewise, the last generation of Volkswagen's GTI has bottom half/quartile reliability rating by CR. But if you know the VW family, you know that the heart of the car is a 4cyl made literally in the millions for the VW/Audi/Seat/Skoda family and sure as a rock.

We can talk about Mercedes-Mercedes W140 S-Class going from the best in the world to the worst in the world almost overnight with the Chryser-Mercedes W220 S-Class. You wouldn't get a good assessment from CR for the W220 when it was introduced, considering that the CR reliability rating comes from a user survey of "typically 200-300 owners", and then when lacking datapoints it will be extrapolated from "brand history" and "similar models".

For the Tesla then, there will be a difference in the design and objective of the Model X, versus model S, versus model 3, which plays out in manufacturing scale and timeline, etc etc. Much more nuance than CR can capture.
Jack FFR1846
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Re: Lexus or Tesla?

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

What's the OP doing? From his first post, saying his wife preferred the Lexus, I can guess what he's buying.

Do the math. For you it may work. Perhaps you live in a place where a Tesla can use special roads that gas cars can't. Those are important considerations. Is a Tesla overall cheaper for you to operate? For many people with expensive gas and cheap electricity or with solar panels on the roof, it is. For me, it isn't.

My case is somewhat unusual. My car, bought new with tax, title and registration cost 1/2 what a bare bones model 3 would...or darned close to it. I live in an expensive electricity region and am able to get gas discounts all the time. So for me, I pay double for the car and more to run it than my gas car (I have done the math). I do my own oil changes, but certainly I do have to pay for the oil and filters. My door handles are simple, mechanical units that work 100% even if I pull the battery out of the car. I don't need to go into a screen menu to do anything. I personally want nothing to do with the car trying to drive for me or getting unwanted updates (I have never allowed ios updates on my iPhone.....so I was able to avoid batterygate a few years back). Just call me Fred Flintstone. Come on, Wilma, let's get a bronto burger.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid
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