Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

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MortgageOnBlack
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Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by MortgageOnBlack »

Not sure if any Bogleheads saw the official Honda Civic reveal yesterday from Honda: https://youtu.be/ZFjlzKDElkI

I'm looking forward to seeing them in person. In my opinion, much nicer compared to the "racecar" generation that is out now (maybe I'm old). Finally, I might be able to replace my 1991 Honda Civic with a much upgraded model. Still trying to determine if the price of around $22k MSRP for the base model is worth splurging. Anyone else?
Random Poster
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by Random Poster »

Looks vaguely like a mid 90’s Accord to me.

But to your question, I’d never buy the first model year of a car. So even if I were interested in the Civic, I wouldn’t buy one until it has been out for at least a year.
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by msi »

The interior is a lot nicer, too.
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by jb3 »

No manuals on the 11th gen - boo! Only the Si and R variants that are expected to come out later this year will have manuals.
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by sycamore »

I think there's supposed to be a hatchback model coming, too, which holds some appeal to me.
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

Under forty grand for the type R with more power in a hatch that doesn't look like it fell out of a Hot Wheels package. Win. The rear looks very Audi A4-ish from 10 years ago.

I've only had one pure civic....a 75 Civic CVCC. Had a few CRXs (including a prepared racecar) but CRX owners are insulted if you call the car a Civic.
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by iamlucky13 »

MortgageOnBlack wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:41 pmIn my opinion, much nicer compared to the "racecar" generation that is out now (maybe I'm old).
I had a chuckle over this. On the Civic forums, everyone is aghast at the boring styling of the 11th generation. I suspected it would appeal better to the mainstream market though, and your response seems to support that.

Personally, I'm indifferent about the exterior. My ideal would have been basically halfway in between the design of the 10th and the 11th. I'm not a fan of the interior. No objective criticism. I just don't like it aesthetically. I'm intrigued by the configurable dash display, although it would have to look really natural to displace my preference for analog gauges. The faux analog gauges on the 10th gen just aren't the same. The analog gauges on my 7th gen give a very subtle, but still meaningful extra degree of finesse to the tachometer and speedometer that helps me maintain a more consistent speed.

Those are very minor. More substantial is the fact that the windows are basically as small as on the 10th gen - I just did a couple quick scaled measurements to check. Maybe the rear window goes lower, which would be a significant improvement, but I can't tell for certain. Although I know reviewers who have experience with the current competitors mostly rated the 10th gen visibility as good, that just highlights how the industry as a whole has moved backwards with respect to driver visibility. The visibility from my 7th gen is excellent. The visibility in my 10th gen is poor. However, since that is what the market offers, I grumble about it but deal.

It is a very common complaint that the 10th gen infotainment system is slow to respond. I've noticed this on mine, but since I don't use it much, it hasn't bothered me much. I don't think Honda could miss how vocal the feedback has been, so hopefully this is improved in the 11th. Honda is slowly learning about the limitations of touch screens. They did a mid-10th gen refresh to add some physical buttons, and it sounds like they made some other tactile improvements for the 11th gen

The real deal-breaker for me in the 11th gen is the lack of a manual transmission. Every time I rent a car or drive my wife's car, multiple characteristics about the automatics irritate me, and I'm just not willing to put up with them daily. I will accept the end of manual transmissions when I buy an electric (which happily, won't rely on a torque converter), but for this round of shopping, a manual transmission was a non-negotiable.

I was waffling back and forth between the limited inventory that left me competing for in the 10th gen, or waiting for the 11th gen. I'm glad I didn't wait. Actually, I could have waited for the 11th gen Civic SI to come out, since that is the trim I ultimately went with, but I didn't really want to wait that much longer, and I'm expecting a non-trivial increase in price.

I see they added engine start/stop functionality. Some people hate this. In the rental cars I've driven, I've found the feature easy to adapt to. Easing up on the brake pedal usually signals the engine to restart, so it is trivial to work around.

They've now programmed the CVT to downshift in response to braking. I think this is good, but it seemed really obvious to me - automatics are finally catching up with a century-old technique.
MortgageOnBlack wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:41 pmFinally, I might be able to replace my 1991 Honda Civic with a much upgraded model. Still trying to determine if the price of around $22k MSRP for the base model is worth splurging. Anyone else?
If you don't share my not-entirely-rational disdain for automatics, yes, I think so. The 10th gen Civic has consistently been ranked by reviewers as the best car in its class, and reading between the lines, the 11th gen seems to be more similar than different. If you like the aesthetics better, that should clinch it. Hondas have a great track record of providing very low total cost of ownership to buy-and-hold owners like you and me.

But I wouldn't rush into the purchase because of the production issues affecting the whole industry, driving inventory down, and making it hard to negotiate historically normal discounts. Hopefully in 6-12 months, things will be more normal.
Random Poster wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:48 pmBut to your question, I’d never buy the first model year of a car. So even if I were interested in the Civic, I wouldn’t buy one until it has been out for at least a year.
I mostly agree. The 10th gen, for example, had expensive issues with the air conditioner up through 2018 (although Honda eventually extended the warranty).

However, I would rate this generation as a fairly low risk to early adopters. The drivetrain is carried over from the 10th generation, so the most critical part of the car is well proven out. Other aspects seem fairly similar. They keep talking about "optimization" and "refinement," but not redesigns. Again, the 10th gen was really well rated by reviewers, so it would be a questionable strategy to make major changes to a winning design.
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by iskey »

Interesting design. Three words came to mind when I watched the video. Retro, sophisticated, boring. Not boring in a bad way necessarily, it seems like they simplified the design intentionally. Someone mentioned it resembles an older Accord and I agree with that. Looks like they borrowed some of the more sophisticated elements from the Accord. And I noticed a few features that remind me of an older car, the steering wheel for instance.
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by adamthesmythe »

jb3 wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:28 pm No manuals on the 11th gen - boo! Only the Si and R variants that are expected to come out later this year will have manuals.
Apparently there will be a sport version with paddle shifters, but what a paddle shifts on a CVT transmission is unclear to me.

A few years back some Subarus had this too. Can't figure it out.
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by aluminum »

Booorringg...

The 10th gen was/is a very sexy car. This one looks like, well, every other car out there. I thought Honda learned their lesson on building a boring Civic in 2012.
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by Hoosier CPA »

Wish they'd offer something other than the CVT
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by Random Musings »

The 11th generation will be a better overall car, but the exterior look of the 10th generation is superior.

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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by d18lover »

Loved the outgoing generation so much, but at 6'4 with some troubled knees, it was a bit of a squeeze in the leg box. What fun to drive though, for an economy car they really gave it some oomph.

If I wasn't stuck in CUV land, this would be it. That said, the new generation basically looks like the prior Accord. It's like when Apple comes out with a new watch, the old watch becomes the cheaper model and the new watch is premium. Feel very much like Honda did that with the Civic.
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by mmmodem »

Ever wonder why car manufacturers never call their vehicles "the Civic?" They just say "Civic is the best car ever." Everyone else says "the" Civic is a nice car to buy. Anyway, I really hated the previous generation Civic. I have no problem with the the boy racer look. It's just so much fake plastic vents and way too busy. BTW, the interior looks exactly the same as a Kia K5.
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by iamlucky13 »

adamthesmythe wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:08 pm
jb3 wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:28 pm No manuals on the 11th gen - boo! Only the Si and R variants that are expected to come out later this year will have manuals.
Apparently there will be a sport version with paddle shifters, but what a paddle shifts on a CVT transmission is unclear to me.

A few years back some Subarus had this too. Can't figure it out.
The paddle shifters are just a pair of oversized buttons that let you suggest to the powertrain control module that you'd prefer it be in a higher or lower gear ratio. On our Outback, it has undocumented rules governing whether or not it will comply with your suggestion. Next to "D" on the actual gear selector there is an "M" which makes it comply a little more strictly with your paddle shifter inputs.

On the Outback, the paddle shifter input only corresponds to 1 of 6 specific ratios. This makes sense analogously to the function of a manual transmission, but considering how a CVT works, I think it would be more useful to bias the gear ratio by a certain amount with each press compared to what the transmission would otherwise choose for the situation (eg, it will show numbers 1-6. I would prefer it be a +1, +2 / -2, -2, etc).

Still, I prefer the paddle shifters over adding, for example, an "L" position to the gear selector. They're more accessible and have a more clear logic.

I don't know how Honda implemented their paddle shifter logic.

Also in the release notes, Honda mentions that they have followed other manufacturers in programming the CVT to pause at fixed ratios when accelerating hard, because too many drivers prefer the simulation of physical gear changes over optimizing the gear ratio.
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by iskey »

d18lover wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:56 pm That said, the new generation basically looks like the prior Accord. It's like when Apple comes out with a new watch, the old watch becomes the cheaper model and the new watch is premium. Feel very much like Honda did that with the Civic.
I like the Apple watch comparison. It also reminds me of the way IPhones used to have flat edges, then gradually went to rounded edges, now back to flat. The Civic was boring in first half of 2010's, then got sexy, now back to boring. People just like any sort of change when it comes to designs.
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by adamthesmythe »

iamlucky13 wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:02 pm Also in the release notes, Honda mentions that they have followed other manufacturers in programming the CVT to pause at fixed ratios when accelerating hard, because too many drivers prefer the simulation of physical gear changes over optimizing the gear ratio.
I was guessing it was something like this.

Does anybody else besides me find it deeply amusing that..a ContinuouslyVT has been invented so the efficiency can be improved by having exactly the right ratio available...unlike the conventional automatic that has discrete ratios...and that in software a feature has been added to simulate discrete gear ratios??
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by eye.surgeon »

My first car 35 years ago was a civic and my daughters first car was also. They have been my go-to suggestion for basic transportation for decades. The new styling looks fine, the Civic hasn't been a style leader for a long time.

Unfortunately the change to turbocharged engines, direct injection, and CVT transmissions will likely spell the end of the superior reliability and longevity of the Civic. I hope I'm wrong. I would lean towards the Corolla as the best in segment. I just bought my daughter a new car, and it was a Toyota RAV4 hybrid, not a Honda.
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by hi_there »

I think the new subdued style is not a bad decision - in a way, it helps Civic stand out among the competition, since other companies seem to be becoming even more aggressive in their designs. Also, Honda will be able to hopefully dress up the car for performance versions without going completely overboard. Also, when they design the 12th generation Civic in the future, they will be able to make a marketing impact by alternating again into a more aggressive design. I like the new interior too.

Anyway, apparently, Civic is still the second most popular Honda vehicle in the US, even with customers retreating from sedans, and from compact sedans in particular. I'm sure the new car will have lots of the same characteristics as the old one - why mess with a winning formula.

But I think the more interesting statistic is that CRV outsells HRV by 4 to 1. So, I bet that 2022 HRV is going to be good, as there is definitely some lost potential here.

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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by IMO »

MortgageOnBlack wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:41 pm Not sure if any Bogleheads saw the official Honda Civic reveal yesterday from Honda: https://youtu.be/ZFjlzKDElkI

I'm looking forward to seeing them in person. In my opinion, much nicer compared to the "racecar" generation that is out now (maybe I'm old). Finally, I might be able to replace my 1991 Honda Civic with a much upgraded model. Still trying to determine if the price of around $22k MSRP for the base model is worth splurging. Anyone else?
This could be a car I'd consider to replace an old dying sedan. Looks kinda like an slightly updated version from a Civic we had many moons ago. It's about 6" shorter then an early 2000 model Accord I believe. Looks fine, just like every other sedan out there anyway. Are the crash tests out on it yet?

Couple questions, do you know if the base model will include the Honda Sense safety/automatic braking type things? Seems all models will get about 35 mpg combined.

Have you compared this to a lower priced EV? Will the lower level base model be cheaper or more expensive than an lower priced EV in the long term?

My other question is on the electronic dashboard. Seems like it's just to be "modern" which is fine, but do these electronic dashboards stand the test of time, say over 15 yrs, or is that a problem that will have a huge price tag to fix in say 10 yrs?
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

adamthesmythe wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:08 pm
jb3 wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:28 pm No manuals on the 11th gen - boo! Only the Si and R variants that are expected to come out later this year will have manuals.
Apparently there will be a sport version with paddle shifters, but what a paddle shifts on a CVT transmission is unclear to me.

A few years back some Subarus had this too. Can't figure it out.
They still do. We have paddle shifters in our 13 Crosstrek Limited and in our 17 Legacy Limited. Fine for my wife. My 19 Crosstrek has a proper manual 6 speed transmission. Subarus have artificial "gears" in their CVTs. The paddles allow shifting between these "gears". They are not like an Audi S4 dual clutch or a Nissan GT-R dual clutch which both have paddle shifters and actually do shift between gears.

I recently drove a Porsche 718 Cayman with the PDK transmission with paddle shifters. I left the test drive extremely disappointed. In retrospect, I think that automatic transmission drained all the fun out of the car and introduced annoyances. For someone who is a manual driver, waiting for the Si or R is the way to go. My reason for driving the Cayman is that I am looking to buy another fun car. My last fun car was a Lotus Elise, so perhaps the Porsche was outmatched and the PDK pushed its chances off a cliff.
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by acegolfer »

someone wrote that the new Civic design looks like a Jetta. I couldn't agree any more.
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by iamlucky13 »

adamthesmythe wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:01 am
iamlucky13 wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:02 pm Also in the release notes, Honda mentions that they have followed other manufacturers in programming the CVT to pause at fixed ratios when accelerating hard, because too many drivers prefer the simulation of physical gear changes over optimizing the gear ratio.
I was guessing it was something like this.

Does anybody else besides me find it deeply amusing that..a ContinuouslyVT has been invented so the efficiency can be improved by having exactly the right ratio available...unlike the conventional automatic that has discrete ratios...and that in software a feature has been added to simulate discrete gear ratios??
I mainly find it absurd...maybe a little amusing, but mostly absurd.

As far as I understand (our Subaru predates this fad), this is typically only done when accelerating hard. Below some threshold or throttle or some other metric of power demand, the CVT just acts continuously. Being quieter in those conditions, drivers don't often notice.

Above that threshold, it begins making these stepwise ratio changes.
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by tennisplyr »

I have 2020 Civic hatchback and love it...sporty feel, quick, nice lines. The ‘20 sedan was just that. Not sure the Civic needs to get larger.
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by hi_there »

iamlucky13 wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:41 pm
adamthesmythe wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:01 am
iamlucky13 wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:02 pm Also in the release notes, Honda mentions that they have followed other manufacturers in programming the CVT to pause at fixed ratios when accelerating hard, because too many drivers prefer the simulation of physical gear changes over optimizing the gear ratio.
I was guessing it was something like this.

Does anybody else besides me find it deeply amusing that..a ContinuouslyVT has been invented so the efficiency can be improved by having exactly the right ratio available...unlike the conventional automatic that has discrete ratios...and that in software a feature has been added to simulate discrete gear ratios??
I mainly find it absurd...maybe a little amusing, but mostly absurd.

As far as I understand (our Subaru predates this fad), this is typically only done when accelerating hard. Below some threshold or throttle or some other metric of power demand, the CVT just acts continuously. Being quieter in those conditions, drivers don't often notice.

Above that threshold, it begins making these stepwise ratio changes.
While the feature is there mostly because customers are used to real gears, I think there is some useful element of control that can be added through such a system. CVT is operated by a computer program that has its own definition of optimal gearing, which for economy cars, leans towards fuel economy. It's good to have some way to override the default CVT behavior and force the car to go into higher/lower revs depending on the situation - if not through fake gears, then maybe some other way.
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by PowderDay9 »

acegolfer wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:22 pm someone wrote that the new Civic design looks like a Jetta. I couldn't agree any more.
+1

This new look is so boring. I love the look of the 10th generation.
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by ballons »

hi_there wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:28 am But I think the more interesting statistic is that CRV outsells HRV by 4 to 1. So, I bet that 2022 HRV is going to be good, as there is definitely some lost potential here.

Image
Honda killed off the Fit in NA in hopes of driving them to the HRV. My guess is they go to the civic hatch, CRV, and a handful go with the HRV.

Meanwhile, everyone else gets a Honda Fit/Jazz EV getting 60MPG.
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by ScooterBob »

I'd rather buy a Corolla. In this segment most folks go for reliability and durability. The current Corolla can be optioned to cover a wide range of requirements and still be reliable and durable.

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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by finite_difference »

iamlucky13 wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:47 pm
MortgageOnBlack wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:41 pmIn my opinion, much nicer compared to the "racecar" generation that is out now (maybe I'm old).
The real deal-breaker for me in the 11th gen is the lack of a manual transmission. Every time I rent a car or drive my wife's car, multiple characteristics about the automatics irritate me, and I'm just not willing to put up with them daily. I will accept the end of manual transmissions when I buy an electric (which happily, won't rely on a torque converter), but for this round of shopping, a manual transmission was a non-negotiable.
Have you driven a car with a good automatic? I’m thinking PDK, DSG, Steptronic, etc.

Because I think it’s fair to say that low-quality automatics are inferior to manual. But a high-quality automatic with paddle shifters should be as good if not better.

The automatic transmissions in my 2016 and 2019 Hondas are pretty good in my opinion.
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by adestefan »

hi_there wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:58 pm
While the feature is there mostly because customers are used to real gears, I think there is some useful element of control that can be added through such a system. CVT is operated by a computer program that has its own definition of optimal gearing, which for economy cars, leans towards fuel economy. It's good to have some way to override the default CVT behavior and force the car to go into higher/lower revs depending on the situation - if not through fake gears, then maybe some other way.
The original version of the Mazda CVT had no faked gearing and was super quiet and smooth. People complained so much about it not “shifting” that they had the option to go and get fake gearing programmed into it.
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by acegolfer »

adestefan wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 9:18 pm The original version of the Mazda CVT had no faked gearing and was super quiet and smooth. People complained so much about it not “shifting” that they had the option to go and get fake gearing programmed into it.
Curious about the fake shifting. Which part is fake? Is it fake noise? Or is the noise real and the transmission is actually mimicking shifting by rev up and pause momentarily?
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by hi_there »

ballons wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 5:33 pm
hi_there wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:28 am But I think the more interesting statistic is that CRV outsells HRV by 4 to 1. So, I bet that 2022 HRV is going to be good, as there is definitely some lost potential here.

Image
Honda killed off the Fit in NA in hopes of driving them to the HRV. My guess is they go to the civic hatch, CRV, and a handful go with the HRV.

Meanwhile, everyone else gets a Honda Fit/Jazz EV getting 60MPG.
I think it's more due to slow sales than a targeted strategy. Based on the chart, HRV already outsells Fit by 2 to 1, even though HRV faces much higher competition and is only an average vehicle for the subcompact SUV segment. Honda Fit, on the other hand, was one of the best small hatchbacks (vs. Yaris etc.). Civic outsells Fit by almost 10 to 1!

I don't blame Honda. With high incomes, big human size, low car tax, and cheap gas, it's natural that Americans will upgrade to the next highest vehicle size. Having owned a Honda Fit before, I can also attest that it's not a great car for American driving, which is mostly on fast roads and highways. I would be happy to drive that car around London or Singapore, but not so much on US interstate with 5000 lb SUVs going 80 mph.
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by Jags4186 »

iamlucky13 wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:41 pm
adamthesmythe wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:01 am
iamlucky13 wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:02 pm Also in the release notes, Honda mentions that they have followed other manufacturers in programming the CVT to pause at fixed ratios when accelerating hard, because too many drivers prefer the simulation of physical gear changes over optimizing the gear ratio.
I was guessing it was something like this.

Does anybody else besides me find it deeply amusing that..a ContinuouslyVT has been invented so the efficiency can be improved by having exactly the right ratio available...unlike the conventional automatic that has discrete ratios...and that in software a feature has been added to simulate discrete gear ratios??
I mainly find it absurd...maybe a little amusing, but mostly absurd.

As far as I understand (our Subaru predates this fad), this is typically only done when accelerating hard. Below some threshold or throttle or some other metric of power demand, the CVT just acts continuously. Being quieter in those conditions, drivers don't often notice.

Above that threshold, it begins making these stepwise ratio changes.
I believe the opposite. My wife’s Impreza will “shift” through gears when driving around town, but if you floor it to merge onto the highway the engine revs to 5000 rpms and stays there until you hit the desired speed.
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by blastoff »

acegolfer wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 7:35 am
adestefan wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 9:18 pm The original version of the Mazda CVT had no faked gearing and was super quiet and smooth. People complained so much about it not “shifting” that they had the option to go and get fake gearing programmed into it.
Curious about the fake shifting. Which part is fake? Is it fake noise? Or is the noise real and the transmission is actually mimicking shifting by rev up and pause momentarily?
"Continuously" VT
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by Jags4186 »

I think the 11th gen Civic looks spiffy. Really like the interior. The real question is what does the back seat look like. I own a 2016 Civic and while the front seat has soft plastic arm rests the backseat is so cheap it’s the one disappointment about the vehicle. All hard plastic and lots of it. No AC vents or USB/socket charger. I’m curious if they upgraded any of the materials. Not that I am ever in the backseat or typically have people in my backseat…but it is something worth pointing out. My mother has a current gen Accord and the backseat is *much* nicer even though the car isn’t really much more expensive.

A lot of the drivetrain is a holdover so I wouldn’t be concerned about new model jitters, but I would still wait a few more years in order to see if they upgrade the engines again. More performance with better fuel economy is always welcome.

It’s funny how our idea of performance changes throughout time. I remember when BMW 3 series had two engine choices — 138hp 4 cylinder and a 180 hp 6 cylinder. Now you can get that in Civic. Probably could drive circles around the old E36 and E46 3-series “sports sedans”.
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by acegolfer »

blastoff wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 7:10 am
acegolfer wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 7:35 am
adestefan wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 9:18 pm The original version of the Mazda CVT had no faked gearing and was super quiet and smooth. People complained so much about it not “shifting” that they had the option to go and get fake gearing programmed into it.
Curious about the fake shifting. Which part is fake? Is it fake noise? Or is the noise real and the transmission is actually mimicking shifting by rev up and pause momentarily?
"Continuously" VT
I know what "C" stands for. Are you suggesting the shifting noise is artificially created by speaker?
teCh0010
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by teCh0010 »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:18 pm
adamthesmythe wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:08 pm
jb3 wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:28 pm No manuals on the 11th gen - boo! Only the Si and R variants that are expected to come out later this year will have manuals.
Apparently there will be a sport version with paddle shifters, but what a paddle shifts on a CVT transmission is unclear to me.

A few years back some Subarus had this too. Can't figure it out.
They still do. We have paddle shifters in our 13 Crosstrek Limited and in our 17 Legacy Limited. Fine for my wife. My 19 Crosstrek has a proper manual 6 speed transmission. Subarus have artificial "gears" in their CVTs. The paddles allow shifting between these "gears". They are not like an Audi S4 dual clutch or a Nissan GT-R dual clutch which both have paddle shifters and actually do shift between gears.

I recently drove a Porsche 718 Cayman with the PDK transmission with paddle shifters. I left the test drive extremely disappointed. In retrospect, I think that automatic transmission drained all the fun out of the car and introduced annoyances. For someone who is a manual driver, waiting for the Si or R is the way to go. My reason for driving the Cayman is that I am looking to buy another fun car. My last fun car was a Lotus Elise, so perhaps the Porsche was outmatched and the PDK pushed its chances off a cliff.
I have a decent amount of track time in a 991 GT3 with the PDK, no issues with the transmission. It does what you tell it with the paddles and responds very predictably.

In the cayman I vastly prefer the NA engines of the 981 cayman vs the turbo 718 base. Slower in a straight line but feel better.
Hoosier CPA
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by Hoosier CPA »

adamthesmythe wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:01 am
iamlucky13 wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:02 pm Also in the release notes, Honda mentions that they have followed other manufacturers in programming the CVT to pause at fixed ratios when accelerating hard, because too many drivers prefer the simulation of physical gear changes over optimizing the gear ratio.
I was guessing it was something like this.

Does anybody else besides me find it deeply amusing that..a ContinuouslyVT has been invented so the efficiency can be improved by having exactly the right ratio available...unlike the conventional automatic that has discrete ratios...and that in software a feature has been added to simulate discrete gear ratios??
Yes, it's kind of ridiculous. One issue with CVTs is it feels like a rubber band and is very sensitive to the gas pedal - can be nauseating for passengers, the constant change in speed. Perhaps this helps to address that.

The main issue with CVTs is longevity - which is why people buy Hondas in the first place.
Jags4186
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by Jags4186 »

acegolfer wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 7:39 am
blastoff wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 7:10 am
acegolfer wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 7:35 am
adestefan wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 9:18 pm The original version of the Mazda CVT had no faked gearing and was super quiet and smooth. People complained so much about it not “shifting” that they had the option to go and get fake gearing programmed into it.
Curious about the fake shifting. Which part is fake? Is it fake noise? Or is the noise real and the transmission is actually mimicking shifting by rev up and pause momentarily?
"Continuously" VT
I know what "C" stands for. Are you suggesting the shifting noise is artificially created by speaker?
Let’s say you’re accelerating from 0-70. A CVT could just rev up to 5000 RPM and hold it there until you get to 70 mph and then lower the RPMs to 2000 for highway cruising. But since people didn’t like that, the CVT will allow the engine to rev from 1000RPM to 6000RPM at say 20MPH, then loosen the chain back to 3000RPM and allow it to rev back to 6000RPM at say 40MPH, then loosen the chain drop the RPMs to 3000RPM and allow the engine to rev up to 6000 RPMs at 70MPH and then loosen the chain so the RPMs drop to 2000 MPH for cruising. Instead of acting continuously it’s creating artificial gear changes but not doing the continuous part.
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by iamlucky13 »

finite_difference wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 8:09 pm Have you driven a car with a good automatic? I’m thinking PDK, DSG, Steptronic, etc.

Because I think it’s fair to say that low-quality automatics are inferior to manual. But a high-quality automatic with paddle shifters should be as good if not better.

The automatic transmissions in my 2016 and 2019 Hondas are pretty good in my opinion.
I'm guessing those are all dual-clutch transmissions? I have not. I'm intrigued by them, and I know they can shift faster than a manual, but they seem to be largely out of my price range.
acegolfer wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 7:39 am Are you suggesting the shifting noise is artificially created by speaker?
The prior poster responded to the main question, but this one, believe it or not, has become a thing - playing simulated engine noise in the cabin to make the engine seem louder. As I understand it, BMW started this gimmick. The SI trim of the 10th generation Civic has this, too, and there is no simple way to disable it. Fortunately, they keep it minimal for normal driving. I haven't felt the need so far to start pulling off trim panels to "pull the card out of the spokes," so to speak and disable it.
Jags4186 wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 3:06 pm I believe the opposite. My wife’s Impreza will “shift” through gears when driving around town, but if you floor it to merge onto the highway the engine revs to 5000 rpms and stays there until you hit the desired speed.
Interesting. Our Outback with CVT predates the artificial shift points, so I was guessing at what seemed to make sense.
Hoosier CPA wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 7:44 am One issue with CVTs is it feels like a rubber band and is very sensitive to the gas pedal - can be nauseating for passengers, the constant change in speed.
I have heard this comment repeatedly when discussing CVT's, but in my experience, the torque converter is the main source of what I would describe as a "rubber band" feeling, not the CVT itself. In general, I have not found them overly sensitive to the gas peddle. One exception was a Nissan Versa I rented for a trip quite a few years ago - terrible driving experience. It was so aggressive about changing the ratio in response to throttle input that it literally slowed down slightly for a moment when trying to accelerate suddenly from cruising speed. It made passing very awkward.

On our 2013 Outback, the main CVT-specific annoyance I've observed is that when you stop, it is in a low ratio, but when you start moving again, it still needs to shift into a high ratio, so there is a tendency to feel like you need to give it a lot of throttle, and then find you've given it too much once it finds the right ratio. It took some practice to learn to smooth this out.
finite_difference
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by finite_difference »

iamlucky13 wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 10:48 am
finite_difference wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 8:09 pm Have you driven a car with a good automatic? I’m thinking PDK, DSG, Steptronic, etc.

Because I think it’s fair to say that low-quality automatics are inferior to manual. But a high-quality automatic with paddle shifters should be as good if not better.

The automatic transmissions in my 2016 and 2019 Hondas are pretty good in my opinion.
I'm guessing those are all dual-clutch transmissions? I have not. I'm intrigued by them, and I know they can shift faster than a manual, but they seem to be largely out of my price range.
PDK (Porsche) and DSG (Audi) are dual-clutch transmissions. The Steptronic (BMW) is an automatic with a torque converter. BMW has the SMG which I think is a dual clutch transmission for their M cars.

I’ve driven crappy automatics and hated them. (I grew up on manual.) But like I said I’m pretty happy with Honda’s automatics. They’re quite acceptable.
The most precious gift we can offer anyone is our attention. - Thich Nhat Hanh
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Toons
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by Toons »

Waiting Anxiously For The
Touring Hatchback Civic 2022
Tentative Plan is to trade in
2108 Civic Touring :mrgreen:
"One does not accumulate but eliminate. It is not daily increase but daily decrease. The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity" –Bruce Lee
ballons
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by ballons »

hi_there wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 3:04 pm
ballons wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 5:33 pm
hi_there wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:28 am But I think the more interesting statistic is that CRV outsells HRV by 4 to 1. So, I bet that 2022 HRV is going to be good, as there is definitely some lost potential here.

...
Honda killed off the Fit in NA in hopes of driving them to the HRV. My guess is they go to the civic hatch, CRV, and a handful go with the HRV.

Meanwhile, everyone else gets a Honda Fit/Jazz EV getting 60MPG.
I think it's more due to slow sales than a targeted strategy. Based on the chart, HRV already outsells Fit by 2 to 1, even though HRV faces much higher competition and is only an average vehicle for the subcompact SUV segment. Honda Fit, on the other hand, was one of the best small hatchbacks (vs. Yaris etc.). Civic outsells Fit by almost 10 to 1!

I don't blame Honda. With high incomes, big human size, low car tax, and cheap gas, it's natural that Americans will upgrade to the next highest vehicle size. Having owned a Honda Fit before, I can also attest that it's not a great car for American driving, which is mostly on fast roads and highways. I would be happy to drive that car around London or Singapore, but not so much on US interstate with 5000 lb SUVs going 80 mph.
I was just commenting about a 2022 HRV changing the CRV vs HRV sales much. The 2022 HRV is supposed to get even bigger and may be based on the 2022 civic. Might as well get a civic hatch or CRV.
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by iamlucky13 »

Jags4186 wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 7:36 am I think the 11th gen Civic looks spiffy. Really like the interior. The real question is what does the back seat look like. I own a 2016 Civic and while the front seat has soft plastic arm rests the backseat is so cheap it’s the one disappointment about the vehicle. All hard plastic and lots of it. No AC vents or USB/socket charger. I’m curious if they upgraded any of the materials. Not that I am ever in the backseat or typically have people in my backseat…but it is something worth pointing out. My mother has a current gen Accord and the backseat is *much* nicer even though the car isn’t really much more expensive.
Fair point. When I bought mine, I sat in the back seat to make sure there was nothing unbearable about it, since I'm sure my kids will be mostly grown before I replace it, but didn't give it much more thought. I'm a bit surprised they didn't even give it USB ports, but a desire to charge is easily worked around with power banks.

Of course, the Civic has historically been an economy car. I tend to see it as more noteworthy how many features have been added up front over the generations than what has been left out of the back. It makes sense that the full-size (EPA category, even though Honda still markets it as mid-size) Accord is more comfortably equipped for regularly transporting more than 2 adults than the mid-size Civic is.

Also, the price difference seems pretty significant: from $3700 more for the LX trims up to $7500 more for the Touring trims.
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Re: Updated Honda Civic model (11th Generation)

Post by SR II »

acegolfer wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:22 pm someone wrote that the new Civic design looks like a Jetta. I couldn't agree any more.
First thing I said to myself when I saw the exterior was that rear end, in particular, reminded me of my 2019 Jetta.
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