What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
Topic Author
angelescrest
Posts: 1318
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 10:48 am
Location: MCOL, no state income tax

What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by angelescrest »

I’ve been wanting to buy an EV for a long time. Looks like this June will be the time for me to do it. But what should I get?

My thoughts and considerations:
  • We will have a second car, a minivan
    Hoping to spend 25k max out the door, all cash
    We usually keep cars for a very very long time, mostly for financial reasons
    Commute will be roughly 40 miles, but I will need it to do longer trips like to the city, airport, medium length weekend trips
    Might be renting a condo for a couple years with garage, and am thinking I can survive just plugging into a regular outlet which will give me 40-50 miles of charge per day. Crazy idea?
    Used in CA, avg summer high temps of 96 in our area
    Needs to be okay for two elementary aged kids (for now, middle school soon) in the back
    I prefer quieter, smooth vehicles, though don’t have much exp with EVs
    Used is fine for me, as long as it can last a long time (degradation, etc)
    Based on reviews, Leaf sounds like a great fit for me: more comfortable, with features I like, but is battery degradation a problem for long term use (10+ years)?
    Bolt sounds more practical, if not uncomfortable seats, noisier, and really ugly inside?
    Occasionally I haul lots of equipment in the back for my work
    I absolutely love Tesla, but would never envision paying for one yet
Appreciate any thoughts, as well as how to buy one. I’ve not done my research on buying new (real cost), leasing, or used (that’s all I’ve ever done). Any questions I should be considering?
Tingting1013
Posts: 1139
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:44 pm

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by Tingting1013 »

You should not keep any EV for 10 years.

You should be buying new and then selling after one year, for essentially no money out of pocket, or even a $1-2k profit.

Also, plugging into a regular outlet won’t give you 40-50 miles, unless you literally don’t drive the car anywhere and it’s plugged in 24 hours straight. For a 12 hour overnight charge on a regular outlet you can expect 30 miles max.
squirm
Posts: 3246
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:53 am

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by squirm »

Just get the Honda Clarity PHEV. Smoking deals, you can get a Touring for like $22k after incentives. Honda quality. Roomy interior that is quiet. It's not a BEV but close enough, never worry where the next charge is either but still do 80-90% driving on electric.
hi_there
Posts: 693
Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:00 pm

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by hi_there »

What about something like a Prius plugin? You can charge it and get your 40 miles or so for daily driving. However, since it also uses gas, you don't have to worry about not being able to charge it overnight, etc. Prius is one of the smoothest cars I've been in too.
Iorek
Posts: 1250
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:38 am

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by Iorek »

Look at the Costco Bolt deal— and even if you always buy and keep cars forever, consider a lease if the deal is too good to pass up.
Topic Author
angelescrest
Posts: 1318
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 10:48 am
Location: MCOL, no state income tax

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by angelescrest »

Tingting1013 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:48 pm You should not keep any EV for 10 years.

You should be buying new and then selling after one year, for essentially no money out of pocket, or even a $1-2k profit.

Also, plugging into a regular outlet won’t give you 40-50 miles, unless you literally don’t drive the car anywhere and it’s plugged in 24 hours straight. For a 12 hour overnight charge on a regular outlet you can expect 30 miles max.
I had read you can get 4 miles an hour, but I don’t have first hand experience. 30 miles wouldn’t be enough. 40 though, yes.
Topic Author
angelescrest
Posts: 1318
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 10:48 am
Location: MCOL, no state income tax

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by angelescrest »

squirm wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:54 pm Just get the Honda Clarity PHEV. Smoking deals, you can get a Touring for like $22k after incentives. Honda quality. Roomy interior that is quiet. It's not a BEV but close enough, never worry where the next charge is either but still do 80-90% driving on electric.
I like PHEVs including the Prius (great car), but I love more the idea of not dealing with the maintenance of an ICE engine.
Last edited by angelescrest on Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Topic Author
angelescrest
Posts: 1318
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 10:48 am
Location: MCOL, no state income tax

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by angelescrest »

Iorek wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:39 pm Look at the Costco Bolt deal— and even if you always buy and keep cars forever, consider a lease if the deal is too good to pass up.
I saw this and was intrigued, but as we are moving across the country, I want to buy where we will live, by which then I the deal will be over. Maybe even with shipping the car the deal makes sense?
hi_there
Posts: 693
Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:00 pm

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by hi_there »

angelescrest wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:41 pm
squirm wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:54 pm Just get the Honda Clarity PHEV. Smoking deals, you can get a Touring for like $22k after incentives. Honda quality. Roomy interior that is quiet. It's not a BEV but close enough, never worry where the next charge is either but still do 80-90% driving on electric.
I like PHEVs including the Prius (great car), but I love more the idea of not dealing with the maintenance of an ICE engine.
Less maintenance is better, but I am getting the impression from your post that it will still be more convenient overall to get a gas car and avoid EV charging logistics.
joebruin77
Posts: 411
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:14 am

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by joebruin77 »

EV's at or close to that price point would include the Chevy Bolt, the Kia Soul EV, the Hyundai Kona EV, and the Nissan Leaf. Although some of the MSRP's are higher than 25K, they may end up at or below 25K if you take into account the federal $7,500 tax savings as well as possible State tax incentives. Also don't forget to take into account local utility rebates and tax deductions on the purchase and installation of home chargers.

If you want an EV at a super low price, consider buying a used Nissan Leaf. I saw a couple at my local Carmax that were amazing deals. Then again, the reason the prices were so low is because the resale value of older Leafs is so poor.
User avatar
llama
Posts: 109
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by llama »

joebruin77 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:04 pm If you want an EV at a super low price, consider buying a used Nissan Leaf. I saw a couple at my local Carmax that were amazing deals.
I bought a 2019 Leaf SV with 6000 miles on it from CarMax a couple months ago for cheap. Love it.
Tingting1013 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:48 pm Also, plugging into a regular outlet won’t give you 40-50 miles, unless you literally don’t drive the car anywhere and it’s plugged in 24 hours straight. For a 12 hour overnight charge on a regular outlet you can expect 30 miles max.
I get about 4 miles of range per hour on a 120V outlet.
THANKS
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:00 pm

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by THANKS »

Iorek wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:39 pm Look at the Costco Bolt deal— and even if you always buy and keep cars forever, consider a lease if the deal is too good to pass up.
If I'm reading this correctly:
1) 9000 Cash back
2) 0% APR + 7000 off if financing with GM
3) 3000 off from Costco

So is that $19000 off total? My state doesn't have any exceptional rebates and the federal rebates seem to have been tapped out, but that is still pretty incredible.
Tingting1013
Posts: 1139
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:44 pm

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by Tingting1013 »

THANKS wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:05 am
Iorek wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:39 pm Look at the Costco Bolt deal— and even if you always buy and keep cars forever, consider a lease if the deal is too good to pass up.
If I'm reading this correctly:
1) 9000 Cash back
2) 0% APR + 7000 off if financing with GM
3) 3000 off from Costco

So is that $19000 off total? My state doesn't have any exceptional rebates and the federal rebates seem to have been tapped out, but that is still pretty incredible.
In CA the deal is even better. There are people prepaying $5000 for a three year lease and then getting that money back from the state’s CVRP / CVAP program. A free car for three years.
Tingting1013
Posts: 1139
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:44 pm

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by Tingting1013 »

Government at all levels is subsidizing new electric vehicles like crazy, and all indications are that the deals will get even better.

I just wonder when the mainstream Boglehead mantra to drive a Corolla into the ground will finally die out.
inbox788
Posts: 8128
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:24 pm

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by inbox788 »

angelescrest wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:40 pm
Tingting1013 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:48 pm You should not keep any EV for 10 years.

You should be buying new and then selling after one year, for essentially no money out of pocket, or even a $1-2k profit.

Also, plugging into a regular outlet won’t give you 40-50 miles, unless you literally don’t drive the car anywhere and it’s plugged in 24 hours straight. For a 12 hour overnight charge on a regular outlet you can expect 30 miles max.
I had read you can get 4 miles an hour, but I don’t have first hand experience. 30 miles wouldn’t be enough. 40 though, yes.
Can you charge at work? And if you visit the mall or theater for 1-2 hours, you can charge up faster on those trips. Pick lunch spots that have charging.
Tingting1013
Posts: 1139
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:44 pm

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by Tingting1013 »

angelescrest wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:44 pm I absolutely love Tesla, but would never envision paying for one yet
Three year old Model 3s are selling for about same price as new.

New Model 3 Standard Range Plus (263 miles): $35,700 + TTL (with $3,500 CA incentives)

Used 2018 Model 3 Mid Range (260 miles): $35,450 + TTL

https://shift.com/car/2018-black-tesla- ... &utm_term=

Owning a Tesla for a few years can be cheaper than owning a Corolla.
heyyou
Posts: 3888
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 4:58 pm

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by heyyou »

Consumer Reports magazine often has reviews of cars based on price and reliability.
otinkyad
Posts: 317
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:35 pm

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by otinkyad »

llama wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:33 pm
joebruin77 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:04 pm If you want an EV at a super low price, consider buying a used Nissan Leaf. I saw a couple at my local Carmax that were amazing deals.
I bought a 2019 Leaf SV with 6000 miles on it from CarMax a couple months ago for cheap. Love it.
Used Leafs are not the steal they used to be, but they’re still a pretty good deal. Maybe the 2018 model year with the longer range changed things?
llama wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:33 pm
Tingting1013 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:48 pm Also, plugging into a regular outlet won’t give you 40-50 miles, unless you literally don’t drive the car anywhere and it’s plugged in 24 hours straight. For a 12 hour overnight charge on a regular outlet you can expect 30 miles max.
I get about 4 miles of range per hour on a 120V outlet.
I also get about 4 miles per hour of charge. I have a 2014 Leaf, which I still love, and have just stuck with the 120V charger. It gets me 40-60 miles of charge per night. As others have mentioned, you might also be able to top up when shopping or dining out.

As far as quiet and smooth, whenever I drive my wife’s car I tell her it vibrates even when it’s not moving and it makes an enormous racket, and when it is moving, it’s slow. ;-)

The Bolt is smaller than a Leaf, if that matters.
Valuethinker
Posts: 42408
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 am

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by Valuethinker »

otinkyad wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:46 am
llama wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:33 pm
joebruin77 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:04 pm If you want an EV at a super low price, consider buying a used Nissan Leaf. I saw a couple at my local Carmax that were amazing deals.
I bought a 2019 Leaf SV with 6000 miles on it from CarMax a couple months ago for cheap. Love it.
Used Leafs are not the steal they used to be, but they’re still a pretty good deal. Maybe the 2018 model year with the longer range changed things?
llama wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:33 pm
Tingting1013 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:48 pm Also, plugging into a regular outlet won’t give you 40-50 miles, unless you literally don’t drive the car anywhere and it’s plugged in 24 hours straight. For a 12 hour overnight charge on a regular outlet you can expect 30 miles max.
I get about 4 miles of range per hour on a 120V outlet.
I also get about 4 miles per hour of charge. I have a 2014 Leaf, which I still love, and have just stuck with the 120V charger. It gets me 40-60 miles of charge per night. As others have mentioned, you might also be able to top up when shopping or dining out.

As far as quiet and smooth, whenever I drive my wife’s car I tell her it vibrates even when it’s not moving and it makes an enormous racket, and when it is moving, it’s slow. ;-)

The Bolt is smaller than a Leaf, if that matters.
What are the options for a 220v charger for an American home? Charging x2 as fast?

In Europe our electricity is 220v anyways (now you know why it's illegal to put an electricity socket in a British bathroom - there's a special low amp socket for shaver (ie not the usual 13 amp fuse), hair dryers in hotels have to be hard wired in).

2014 Leaf - could I ask what is your maximum range?

The one I see around here is the BMW i3 - I love the styling, it reminds me of the original movie "Tron". You can get one with a gasoline range extender. You see a lot of i3 s around (London). We now also have EV black cabs (London taxis).
Valuethinker
Posts: 42408
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 am

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by Valuethinker »

angelescrest wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:44 pm I’ve been wanting to buy an EV for a long time. Looks like this June will be the time for me to do it. But what should I get?

My thoughts and considerations:
  • We will have a second car, a minivan
    Hoping to spend 25k max out the door, all cash
    We usually keep cars for a very very long time, mostly for financial reasons
    Commute will be roughly 40 miles, but I will need it to do longer trips like to the city, airport, medium length weekend trips
    Might be renting a condo for a couple years with garage, and am thinking I can survive just plugging into a regular outlet which will give me 40-50 miles of charge per day. Crazy idea?
    Used in CA, avg summer high temps of 96 in our area
    Needs to be okay for two elementary aged kids (for now, middle school soon) in the back
    I prefer quieter, smooth vehicles, though don’t have much exp with EVs
    Used is fine for me, as long as it can last a long time (degradation, etc)
    Based on reviews, Leaf sounds like a great fit for me: more comfortable, with features I like, but is battery degradation a problem for long term use (10+ years)?
    Bolt sounds more practical, if not uncomfortable seats, noisier, and really ugly inside?
    Occasionally I haul lots of equipment in the back for my work
    I absolutely love Tesla, but would never envision paying for one yet
Appreciate any thoughts, as well as how to buy one. I’ve not done my research on buying new (real cost), leasing, or used (that’s all I’ve ever done). Any questions I should be considering?
I don't know if the BMW i3 is on your list?

Generally BMWs are high maintenance cost/ high depreciation vehicles.
But the i3 is obviously something different ie an EV. And in California you won't confront the issues with road salt corrosion that the north east and midwest do.

I admit I just like the styling (futuristic- modern). In the land of SUVs, it may feel too small.
mpnret
Posts: 365
Joined: Sun May 20, 2018 9:16 am

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by mpnret »

Tingting1013 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:48 pm You should not keep any EV for 10 years.

You should be buying new and then selling after one year, for essentially no money out of pocket, or even a $1-2k profit.

Also, plugging into a regular outlet won’t give you 40-50 miles, unless you literally don’t drive the car anywhere and it’s plugged in 24 hours straight. For a 12 hour overnight charge on a regular outlet you can expect 30 miles max.
My Tesla m3 gets 96 miles in a 12 hour charge on a existing 120v outlet in my garage.
crefwatch
Posts: 951
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 1:07 pm
Location: New Jersey, USA

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by crefwatch »

Bolt LT tends to be much cheaper than Premier. Premier interior is no uglier than, say, a Corolla. Lots of rear leg room. Bolt OEM 120v charger is reported to work on 240 if available, 2x as fast. Some condo communities have chargers. Once you have a level 2 charger located, you won’t need to charge every day, which may be better for the battery life. Bolt ride feels bumps because of low friction tires and pressure. Heat and AC come out of range for any EV.

I would think twice if you can’t count on easy access to level 2 charging twice a week.
vg55
Posts: 53
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:55 am

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by vg55 »

Definitely buy used. I got a great deal on a used Volt. It is too small for your purposes. But I love the PHEV.

In the meantime, install a level 2 charger. I bought mine used on clippercreek. Go for 240 volt 40 amp. The more the better. Level 1 charging is a trickle charge. Did it once. never again.

I oversized on my charger cause I know the next car will accept even more charge.

I got on clippercreek's refurbished charger list and waited for a great deal. https://store.clippercreek.com/used

BTW -- I liked the suggestion about the Honda Clarity. I would have gone that route, but the vehicle had just come out and there wasnt a used market for them yet.
Topic Author
angelescrest
Posts: 1318
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 10:48 am
Location: MCOL, no state income tax

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by angelescrest »

llama wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:33 pm
joebruin77 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:04 pm If you want an EV at a super low price, consider buying a used Nissan Leaf. I saw a couple at my local Carmax that were amazing deals.
I bought a 2019 Leaf SV with 6000 miles on it from CarMax a couple months ago for cheap. Love it.
Tingting1013 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:48 pm Also, plugging into a regular outlet won’t give you 40-50 miles, unless you literally don’t drive the car anywhere and it’s plugged in 24 hours straight. For a 12 hour overnight charge on a regular outlet you can expect 30 miles max.
I get about 4 miles of range per hour on a 120V outlet.
I’ve been looking at the 2018+ Leaf models. What did you pay if you don’t mind sharing? 4 miles of range for 12 hours is enough for me.
Topic Author
angelescrest
Posts: 1318
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 10:48 am
Location: MCOL, no state income tax

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by angelescrest »

Tingting1013 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:07 am
THANKS wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:05 am
Iorek wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:39 pm Look at the Costco Bolt deal— and even if you always buy and keep cars forever, consider a lease if the deal is too good to pass up.
If I'm reading this correctly:
1) 9000 Cash back
2) 0% APR + 7000 off if financing with GM
3) 3000 off from Costco

So is that $19000 off total? My state doesn't have any exceptional rebates and the federal rebates seem to have been tapped out, but that is still pretty incredible.
In CA the deal is even better. There are people prepaying $5000 for a three year lease and then getting that money back from the state’s CVRP / CVAP program. A free car for three years.
Where can I find more info on this?
Valuethinker
Posts: 42408
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 am

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by Valuethinker »

angelescrest wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:45 am
llama wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:33 pm
joebruin77 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:04 pm If you want an EV at a super low price, consider buying a used Nissan Leaf. I saw a couple at my local Carmax that were amazing deals.
I bought a 2019 Leaf SV with 6000 miles on it from CarMax a couple months ago for cheap. Love it.
Tingting1013 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:48 pm Also, plugging into a regular outlet won’t give you 40-50 miles, unless you literally don’t drive the car anywhere and it’s plugged in 24 hours straight. For a 12 hour overnight charge on a regular outlet you can expect 30 miles max.
I get about 4 miles of range per hour on a 120V outlet.
I’ve been looking at the 2018+ Leaf models. What did you pay if you don’t mind sharing? 4 miles of range for 12 hours is enough for me.
You should seriously consider a Level 2 charger as future proofing your house. The only thing that would give me pause is future technology change - maybe a new, higher standard of charger might emerge?

It's like cable tv or broadband (or electricity), in 30 years time (10?) it will just be an expected feature of any house. I would imagine a house in America, now, is almost unsaleable without broadband? (I mean yes there are rural areas, or places where houses are truly cheap, but it's very hard to live a life without broadband, now especially post Covid-19?).
TrollToll
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:24 am

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by TrollToll »

I like the BEVs too, but I don't think a PHEV would be a bad idea either. They offer a ton of flexibility and are always ready to go - especially for someone charging at 120v.

I owned a 2012 Chevy Volt and later a Tesla Model 3. I charged my Volt on 120v for a few years and it worked just fine.

You should be able to get a used 2018 Volt below your price point ($15k or so) and I think it's a great car. 50 miles of EV range. You should be able to do 95% of your driving on electric & get most of the benefits. If you ever need to do a road trip, it has a hybrid engine with good mpg.

I you are able to upgrade to the 240v charger, I think that would be good too regardless of your choice. I don't expect in-home charger infrastructure will go out of style any time soon.
Luke Duke
Posts: 1119
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:44 am
Location: Texas

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by Luke Duke »

THANKS wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:05 am
Iorek wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:39 pm Look at the Costco Bolt deal— and even if you always buy and keep cars forever, consider a lease if the deal is too good to pass up.
If I'm reading this correctly:
1) 9000 Cash back
2) 0% APR + 7000 off if financing with GM
3) 3000 off from Costco

So is that $19000 off total? My state doesn't have any exceptional rebates and the federal rebates seem to have been tapped out, but that is still pretty incredible.
I think that you have to choose between 1 & 2. There's also another $1500 rebate if you are a current GM owner.
FoolStreet
Posts: 1269
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:18 am

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by FoolStreet »

angelescrest wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:40 pm
Tingting1013 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:48 pm You should not keep any EV for 10 years.

You should be buying new and then selling after one year, for essentially no money out of pocket, or even a $1-2k profit.

Also, plugging into a regular outlet won’t give you 40-50 miles, unless you literally don’t drive the car anywhere and it’s plugged in 24 hours straight. For a 12 hour overnight charge on a regular outlet you can expect 30 miles max.
I had read you can get 4 miles an hour, but I don’t have first hand experience. 30 miles wouldn’t be enough. 40 though, yes.
Yeah, 4 miles per hour sounds right. You could go faster with a dryer outlet. My friends rave about their Bolts.
Mordoch
Posts: 440
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2007 11:27 am

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by Mordoch »

Its worth noting that in California depending on your income, you potentially can also be eligible for a rebate on a used car.
https://www.baaqmd.gov/funding-and-ince ... nd-rebates

Depending on where you live in California, you can also specifically get an additional tax rebate if you install an L2 charger.
https://cleanvehiclerebate.org/eng/ev/i ... al-rebates

Its also worth noting with current California law your landlord is also ordinarily required to allow you be to be able to upgrade the charger for your vehicle. (Although as noted another option would be one of the plug in options currently available.)
Big Dog
Posts: 2469
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:12 pm

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by Big Dog »

Commute will be roughly 40 miles, but I will need it to do longer trips like to the city, airport, medium length weekend trips
How far is the airport?
Might be renting a condo for a couple years with garage, and am thinking I can survive just plugging into a regular outlet which will give me 40-50 miles of charge per day. Crazy idea?
To me, yes, crazy idea. ~30- miles of charging overnight won't get you very far, particularly in winter. (Batteries are not as efficient when the temps drop.) You mention summer temps in the 90's, but what about winter? If its in the 30's in the morning commute, expect a range loss of at least 30%, more if you turn on the car's heaters.

(full disclosure: I have two Tesla model 3's. I would not purchase an EV without level 2 charging at home.
Tingting1013
Posts: 1139
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:44 pm

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by Tingting1013 »

Big Dog wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:12 am ~30- miles of charging overnight won't get you very far, particularly in winter. (Batteries are not as efficient when the temps drop.) You mention summer temps in the 90's, but what about winter? If its in the 30's in the morning commute, expect a range loss of at least 30%, more if you turn on the car's heaters.

(full disclosure: I have two Tesla model 3's. I would not purchase an EV without level 2 charging at home.
Thank you for bringing some reality back to the L1 charging debate.
angelescrest wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:48 am
Tingting1013 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:07 am In CA the deal is even better. There are people prepaying $5000 for a three year lease and then getting that money back from the state’s CVRP / CVAP program. A free car for three years.
Where can I find more info on this?
You need to follow this thread religiously:
https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/ethanrs- ... 68018/1846

Latest from the SoCal dealer is that he will have "2021 Premier one-pay will be sub 6k on 36/10k with all rebates" in a few weeks

You get $2,000 back from CVRP, assuming your income falls below:
$150,000 for single filers
$204,000 for head–of–household filers
$300,000 for joint filers

And if you make even less than the income limits below, you can get another $2.5k back from CVRP and $5k from CVAP
Number of People* Maximum Gross Annual Income**
1 $51,040
2 $68,960
3 $86,880
4 $104,800
5 $122,720
6 $140,640

You can get paid $3k to drive this car for 3 years.
TravelGeek
Posts: 4274
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 3:23 pm

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by TravelGeek »

Tingting1013 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:40 am
Big Dog wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:12 am ~30- miles of charging overnight won't get you very far, particularly in winter. (Batteries are not as efficient when the temps drop.) You mention summer temps in the 90's, but what about winter? If its in the 30's in the morning commute, expect a range loss of at least 30%, more if you turn on the car's heaters.

(full disclosure: I have two Tesla model 3's. I would not purchase an EV without level 2 charging at home.
Thank you for bringing some reality back to the L1 charging debate.
Well, let's be fair: there have been multiple reports in this thread from actual L1 users that report 4 miles per hour, so a 12 hour charge would add 48 miles overnight.

It is important to compare your charging rate to your actual daily driving requirement. And you should consider that you generally don't arrive home with an empty battery and add 30 miles overnight (which would then give you just 30 miles range the next day). Take a Bolt with 200 mile range (it has a greater nominal range, but the standard recommendation is to not charge to 100% unless you go on a long distance trip). Charge it once to 200 miles range and then keep topping it off overnight -- you will have plenty of range every morning if your daily driving roughly matches the range you add overnight and you can perhaps occasionally charge at work or at the mall or some other public charger.

full disclosure: I have a 2018 LEAF with an NEMA 14-50 L2 "charger" in the garage and (based on my needs analysis) would be okay with L1 charging speed. In my case the outlet existed and the EVSE came with the vehicle, so it didn't cost me extra.
Topic Author
angelescrest
Posts: 1318
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 10:48 am
Location: MCOL, no state income tax

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by angelescrest »

Big Dog wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:12 am
Commute will be roughly 40 miles, but I will need it to do longer trips like to the city, airport, medium length weekend trips
How far is the airport?
Might be renting a condo for a couple years with garage, and am thinking I can survive just plugging into a regular outlet which will give me 40-50 miles of charge per day. Crazy idea?
To me, yes, crazy idea. ~30- miles of charging overnight won't get you very far, particularly in winter. (Batteries are not as efficient when the temps drop.) You mention summer temps in the 90's, but what about winter? If its in the 30's in the morning commute, expect a range loss of at least 30%, more if you turn on the car's heaters.

(full disclosure: I have two Tesla model 3's. I would not purchase an EV without level 2 charging at home.
I appreciate the feedback. Maybe I can talk to the owner about installing an L2 charger, but from what I've gathered, they're not interested in doing ANY upgrades of any kind, given how much choice and control that sellers/landlords have in this currently insane housing market. I do believe my work has some chargers, but it's a sprawling place and they're not at all close to my office.
Topic Author
angelescrest
Posts: 1318
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 10:48 am
Location: MCOL, no state income tax

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by angelescrest »

TravelGeek wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:33 am
Tingting1013 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:40 am
Big Dog wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:12 am ~30- miles of charging overnight won't get you very far, particularly in winter. (Batteries are not as efficient when the temps drop.) You mention summer temps in the 90's, but what about winter? If its in the 30's in the morning commute, expect a range loss of at least 30%, more if you turn on the car's heaters.

(full disclosure: I have two Tesla model 3's. I would not purchase an EV without level 2 charging at home.
Thank you for bringing some reality back to the L1 charging debate.
Well, let's be fair: there have been multiple reports in this thread from actual L1 users that report 4 miles per hour, so a 12 hour charge would add 48 miles overnight.

It is important to compare your charging rate to your actual daily driving requirement. And you should consider that you generally don't arrive home with an empty battery and add 30 miles overnight (which would then give you just 30 miles range the next day). Take a Bolt with 200 mile range (it has a greater nominal range, but the standard recommendation is to not charge to 100% unless you go on a long distance trip). Charge it once to 200 miles range and then keep topping it off overnight -- you will have plenty of range every morning if your daily driving roughly matches the range you add overnight and you can perhaps occasionally charge at work or at the mall or some other public charger.

full disclosure: I have a 2018 LEAF with an NEMA 14-50 L2 "charger" in the garage and (based on my needs analysis) would be okay with L1 charging speed. In my case the outlet existed and the EVSE came with the vehicle, so it didn't cost me extra.
This is what I was thinking might be possible for me. I drive to work, do a little local driving for errands and shuttling kids, not much else. Long trips we have the van, though I’d certainly like to be able to use the car to drive 150 miles or so occasionally. Weekends we don’t drive a lot and could use the van while the EV tops off. I don’t want to pay the landlord any more than I have to, so I don’t want to pay to install an L2 in his own garage.
Topic Author
angelescrest
Posts: 1318
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 10:48 am
Location: MCOL, no state income tax

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by angelescrest »

A couple follow up questions:

1. Is the regular Leaf (non plus) enough for the typical driver, and the use cases I described? Or would I miss the 200+ range?
2. I’ve never done a lease before, but would this be a case where for an EV it might make sense? I’ve always kept my cars for a very long time so this is a bit of an adjustment.
Tingting1013
Posts: 1139
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:44 pm

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by Tingting1013 »

angelescrest wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:27 pm A couple follow up questions:

1. Is the regular Leaf (non plus) enough for the typical driver, and the use cases I described? Or would I miss the 200+ range?
2. I’ve never done a lease before, but would this be a case where for an EV it might make sense? I’ve always kept my cars for a very long time so this is a bit of an adjustment.
I purchased a new Leaf in 2018 for $22k OTD after tax credits and rebates.

I could sell it to Carvana now for $18k.

That’s $111/month all in cost.

I don’t think you can find a lease that cheap.
crossbow
Posts: 216
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:47 pm

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by crossbow »

angelescrest wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:27 pm A couple follow up questions:

1. Is the regular Leaf (non plus) enough for the typical driver, and the use cases I described? Or would I miss the 200+ range?
2. I’ve never done a lease before, but would this be a case where for an EV it might make sense? I’ve always kept my cars for a very long time so this is a bit of an adjustment.
Get a quote for insurance before you lease. I've heard there are certain levels of insurance required for leases and on a new car that could be expensive/more expensive than if you bought a car with cash and didn't feel the need for such extensive coverage.
User avatar
oldcomputerguy
Moderator
Posts: 10763
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2015 6:50 am
Location: Tennessee

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by oldcomputerguy »

A couple of posts speculating on proposed legislation were removed. As a reminder, see Politics and Religion:
In order to avoid the inevitable frictions that arise from these topics, political or religious posts and comments are prohibited. The only exceptions to this rule are:

- Common religious expressions such as sending your prayers to an ailing member.
- Usage of factual and non-derogatory political labels when necessary to the discussion at hand.
- Discussions about enacted laws or regulations that affect the individual investor. Note that discussions of proposed laws or regulations are prohibited.
- Proposed regulations that are directly related to investing may be discussed if and when they are published for public comments.
Topic Author
angelescrest
Posts: 1318
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 10:48 am
Location: MCOL, no state income tax

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by angelescrest »

Tingting1013 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:30 pm I purchased a new Leaf in 2018 for $22k OTD after tax credits and rebates.

I could sell it to Carvana now for $18k.

That’s $111/month all in cost.

I don’t think you can find a lease that cheap.
That makes sense. Was that the Leaf Plus? I'm trying to determine what a good price is, out the door at the dealer prior to the tax credits.
Tingting1013
Posts: 1139
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:44 pm

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by Tingting1013 »

angelescrest wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:19 am
Tingting1013 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:30 pm I purchased a new Leaf in 2018 for $22k OTD after tax credits and rebates.

I could sell it to Carvana now for $18k.

That’s $111/month all in cost.

I don’t think you can find a lease that cheap.
That makes sense. Was that the Leaf Plus? I'm trying to determine what a good price is, out the door at the dealer prior to the tax credits.
Not the Plus. Leaf SV with Tech Package. For a 2021 model in CA I would target $32k OTD including the $1500 Clean Fuel Reward (applied by the dealer) but excluding the $7500 federal tax credit and the $2000 CVRP that you have apply for yourself.
alfaspider
Posts: 3489
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:44 pm

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by alfaspider »

Tingting1013 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:21 am
angelescrest wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:44 pm I absolutely love Tesla, but would never envision paying for one yet
Three year old Model 3s are selling for about same price as new.

New Model 3 Standard Range Plus (263 miles): $35,700 + TTL (with $3,500 CA incentives)

Used 2018 Model 3 Mid Range (260 miles): $35,450 + TTL

https://shift.com/car/2018-black-tesla- ... &utm_term=

Owning a Tesla for a few years can be cheaper than owning a Corolla.
I know we can't debate the merits of pending legislation, but there is a current proposal to renew the $7,500EV credit for automakers like Tesla that have been phased out. $27,500 in California for a Model 3 is a very solid deal to the point that I think traditional sedans like the Camry/Accord shouldn't even be on the radar unless you take lots of road trips or don't have a place to charge.
THANKS
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:00 pm

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by THANKS »

Luke Duke wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:45 am
THANKS wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:05 am
Iorek wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:39 pm Look at the Costco Bolt deal— and even if you always buy and keep cars forever, consider a lease if the deal is too good to pass up.
If I'm reading this correctly:
1) 9000 Cash back
2) 0% APR + 7000 off if financing with GM
3) 3000 off from Costco

So is that $19000 off total? My state doesn't have any exceptional rebates and the federal rebates seem to have been tapped out, but that is still pretty incredible.
I think that you have to choose between 1 & 2. There's also another $1500 rebate if you are a current GM owner.
Shucks I knew that would be too good to be true.
Jonezez
Posts: 153
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:31 pm

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by Jonezez »

Iorek wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:39 pm Look at the Costco Bolt deal— and even if you always buy and keep cars forever, consider a lease if the deal is too good to pass up.
here is a good leasing website that shows incentives/cost.

http://ev-vin.blogspot.com/2016/07/curr ... d-evs.html
jeffh19
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:23 pm

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by jeffh19 »

For a cheaper car that won’t be taken on road trips, the Bolt is a clear winner in my book. I’d get a premier with the fast charging option, although it’s not that fast but better than normal level 2 if you ever need it.

But if you don’t care about all the things Tesla offers (brand/coolness/range/charging speed and network) than a Bolt is the next best option. The Mach E is hitting the streets too, that’s closer to a Tesla than a Bolt, and it should be a lot better after they have more experience and time with it and get some kinks worked out. Think of where Tesla has come in the last 5-10 years
Topic Author
angelescrest
Posts: 1318
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 10:48 am
Location: MCOL, no state income tax

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by angelescrest »

Tingting1013 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:43 am
angelescrest wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:19 am
Tingting1013 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:30 pm I purchased a new Leaf in 2018 for $22k OTD after tax credits and rebates.

I could sell it to Carvana now for $18k.

That’s $111/month all in cost.

I don’t think you can find a lease that cheap.
That makes sense. Was that the Leaf Plus? I'm trying to determine what a good price is, out the door at the dealer prior to the tax credits.
Not the Plus. Leaf SV with Tech Package. For a 2021 model in CA I would target $32k OTD including the $1500 Clean Fuel Reward (applied by the dealer) but excluding the $7500 federal tax credit and the $2000 CVRP that you have apply for yourself.
Thanks, I’ll use $32k as a reference point as I look at dealers.
WhyNotUs
Posts: 1937
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:38 am

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by WhyNotUs »

A few thoughts:
• A used 2017-2019 Bolt might be a good price deal due to the recall. Once they determine the issue and provide a fix, it should be a good car and with good range. There is a new 2020 Bolt on Autotrader for $25k
• You could find a 2019-2020 Leaf Plus used in your price range on Autotrader
• Check with area Nissan dealers for a lease deal on a Plus. Offer to be on a list in case they need a quick deal as part of a promotion that benefits the dealer. I got a 2020 Leaf SV (not a plus) last December for $85 a month with only taxes as downpayment. They kept all rebates, tax benefits. I had previously owned a 1st gen. leaf and loved it. I leased this time with the hope that the next battery tech will be available when my lease comes up. That is not a given :-)

We have a minivan for our second car and having had ecars for 8 years, I am struck by how much more time and energy and money ICE cars require.
I own the next hot stock- VTSAX
Tingting1013
Posts: 1139
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:44 pm

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by Tingting1013 »

WhyNotUs wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:56 pm • Check with area Nissan dealers for a lease deal on a Plus. Offer to be on a list in case they need a quick deal as part of a promotion that benefits the dealer. I got a 2020 Leaf SV (not a plus) last December for $85 a month with only taxes as downpayment. They kept all rebates, tax benefits. I had previously owned a 1st gen. leaf and loved it. I leased this time with the hope that the next battery tech will be available when my lease comes up. That is not a given :-)
If OP can get a lease on a Leaf SV for <$150/month (all-in) for 12k miles per year that is a good deal.
MathWizard
Posts: 4726
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:35 pm

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by MathWizard »

Valuethinker wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:16 am
otinkyad wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:46 am
llama wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:33 pm
joebruin77 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:04 pm If you want an EV at a super low price, consider buying a used Nissan Leaf. I saw a couple at my local Carmax that were amazing deals.
I bought a 2019 Leaf SV with 6000 miles on it from CarMax a couple months ago for cheap. Love it.
Used Leafs are not the steal they used to be, but they’re still a pretty good deal. Maybe the 2018 model year with the longer range changed things?
llama wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:33 pm
Tingting1013 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:48 pm Also, plugging into a regular outlet won’t give you 40-50 miles, unless you literally don’t drive the car anywhere and it’s plugged in 24 hours straight. For a 12 hour overnight charge on a regular outlet you can expect 30 miles max.
I get about 4 miles of range per hour on a 120V outlet.
I also get about 4 miles per hour of charge. I have a 2014 Leaf, which I still love, and have just stuck with the 120V charger. It gets me 40-60 miles of charge per night. As others have mentioned, you might also be able to top up when shopping or dining out.

As far as quiet and smooth, whenever I drive my wife’s car I tell her it vibrates even when it’s not moving and it makes an enormous racket, and when it is moving, it’s slow. ;-)

The Bolt is smaller than a Leaf, if that matters.
What are the options for a 220v charger for an American home? Charging x2 as fast?

In Europe our electricity is 220v anyways (now you know why it's illegal to put an electricity socket in a British bathroom - there's a special low amp socket for shaver (ie not the usual 13 amp fuse), hair dryers in hotels have to be hard wired in).

2014 Leaf - could I ask what is your maximum range?

The one I see around here is the BMW i3 - I love the styling, it reminds me of the original movie "Tron". You can get one with a gasoline range extender. You see a lot of i3 s around (London). We now also have EV black cabs (London taxis).

For 220V, it is likely more than 2 times as fast.
You typically use larger amperage with 220V in the US.

I have 30 amp breaker for the dryer and higher for other appliances.

From:
https://www.chargepoint.com/resources/h ... v-charger/

For 220V:

Breaker Rating Charger Amperage Estimated Driving Range Added Per Hour of Charging

30A 24A 18 mi (29 km)

It would be proportionately more for higher amps.

It may slow down as the battery nears 100% at the higher amp ratings.
NYC_Guy
Posts: 372
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:23 pm
Location: New York

Re: What EV to buy for 20k-25k?

Post by NYC_Guy »

Big Dog wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:12 am
Commute will be roughly 40 miles, but I will need it to do longer trips like to the city, airport, medium length weekend trips
How far is the airport?
Might be renting a condo for a couple years with garage, and am thinking I can survive just plugging into a regular outlet which will give me 40-50 miles of charge per day. Crazy idea?
To me, yes, crazy idea. ~30- miles of charging overnight won't get you very far, particularly in winter. (Batteries are not as efficient when the temps drop.) You mention summer temps in the 90's, but what about winter? If its in the 30's in the morning commute, expect a range loss of at least 30%, more if you turn on the car's heaters.

(full disclosure: I have two Tesla model 3's. I would not purchase an EV without level 2 charging at home.
I have L2 for my Tesla. But the reality is that a normal 120v circuit can work. I was getting 120v*12 amp for about 1500 w per hour. Usually can get 12+ hours of charge overnight. So that is around 20kw. That’s at least 50 miles of range. But yes, it’s nice to be able to go from near zero to full overnight. I need to do that about 2 or 3 times a year.
Post Reply