For those retired or FI, how much do you spend annually?

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flyingaway
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Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?

Post by flyingaway »

22twain wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:46 pm We're retired, late 60s / early 70s, in a small town in the South, with a paid-off house.

Last year we spent a total of about $53K, of which:

$8K income tax (fed + state)
$12K donations (charitable + political)
$7K Medicare premiums
$9K housing-related (utilities, property tax, insurance, maintenance)
$3K food (no eating out because of Covid)
$14K everything else (cars, new computers, hobbies, etc.)

If it hadn't been for Covid, we would have spent more for eating out and travel.

Only one of us is collecting Social Security and taking RMDs from tax-deferred accounts. After the other one starts in a few years, our tax bill will probably increase to about $30K.
I like this budget. I would like to add $20K for travel and another $20K for entertainment.
Fat Tails
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Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?

Post by Fat Tails »

Silk McCue wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:50 pm The search bar upper right corner of this page is your friend.

Below is a post from January 2021 with 112 replies.

viewtopic.php?t=335148&start=50

Cheers
+1.

OP, you may want to look at Rick Ferri’s post in the above link. He has a lot of data in this area.

It is interesting. Some forum members pay $50k per year in property taxes alone. Others are comfortable living off of social security plus a little from savings. Some people enjoy being frugal. Some people have a taste for fine wine. To each his own! Your goal should be to have some choices in retirement.

Cheers.
“It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future.” ― Yogi Berra
InvestInPasta
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Re: For those retired or FI, how much do you spend annually?

Post by InvestInPasta »

kilkoyne wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:46 pm This is a great topic.

I'm single and an ultra-saver. My calculations for 2020 would have me at $42K spending. I included budgeting for $7K house maintenance and $3K vacation and $2K healthcare. I still have a mortgage and live in a HCOL area. I believe my expenses may go up when I retire with more vacationing but not drastically.

I'm estimating on the high side $50k-$60K/year spending after taxes (in today's dollars) with a mortgage but the mortgage could be gone if I wanted that. I'm so used to saving and living on frugally that I doubt more money would make me any happier.
Would you mind to post more details about your expenses?
I'm asking you, but I could ask the same to others, it's just that your post was the most detailed one.
I'm curious because life in US seems to be so expensive from here. I thought it was caused by healthcare insurance, but you wrote you spend only 2K$ per year on that one.

For example:
1) What's the recurring spending per year for your house (owned, excluding morgage)? I mean bills+Home tax.
2) What's for the car? I mean insurance+tax+gas+fines+maintenance
3) Eating? I mean grocery+restaurant+delivered pizza/food
When I study English I am lazier than my portfolio. Feel free to fix my english and investing mistakes.
Admiral
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Re: For those retired or FI, how much do you spend annually?

Post by Admiral »

InvestInPasta wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:13 am
kilkoyne wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:46 pm This is a great topic.

I'm single and an ultra-saver. My calculations for 2020 would have me at $42K spending. I included budgeting for $7K house maintenance and $3K vacation and $2K healthcare. I still have a mortgage and live in a HCOL area. I believe my expenses may go up when I retire with more vacationing but not drastically.

I'm estimating on the high side $50k-$60K/year spending after taxes (in today's dollars) with a mortgage but the mortgage could be gone if I wanted that. I'm so used to saving and living on frugally that I doubt more money would make me any happier.
Would you mind to post more details about your expenses?
I'm asking you, but I could ask the same to others, it's just that your post was the most detailed one.
I'm curious because life in US seems to be so expensive from here. I thought it was caused by healthcare insurance, but you wrote you spend only 2K$ per year on that one.

For example:
1) What's the recurring spending per year for your house (owned, excluding morgage)? I mean bills+Home tax.
2) What's for the car? I mean insurance+tax+gas+fines+maintenance
3) Eating? I mean grocery+restaurant+delivered pizza/food
I can answer but are you asking about CURRENT (while working) expenses or RETIREMENT expenses? There will be a significant reduction, at least for me.

Also don’t forget high earners tend to spend much more!
Escapevelocity
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Re: For those retired or FI, how much do you spend annually?

Post by Escapevelocity »

Sandi_k wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:23 pm
SpaceCowboy wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:14 am When I read these threads, I just don’t understand how people live on such tight budgets. Granted I live in a HCOL area, SoCal, in a nice suburb, but if I just look at insurance costs (health, house, car, earthquake, umbrella) and property taxes, that adds up to over $40k annually. That’s without food. The biggest discretionary pieces of our budget are travel and restaurants. Taxes are the hardest items to predict, as I do get self-employment income some years. I also don’t include education expenses, which are separately funded from 529s. Our spending tends to be $180-200k annually since retiring 7 years ago. This past Covid year was cheaper, as we stopped eating out largely and only had one significant road trip vacation plus one international trip early in the year.
I noted we are planning $150k per year, and we're in NorCal. Once the house is paid off, that's still $12k per year in taxes and insurance. Medical premiums for retirees = $8k annually. Food: $10k annually. Car insurance - $4k annually. Taxes: $40k annually on the pension.

So we're at $75k annually, and we haven't even covered utilities, gas, or travel. :annoyed
$40K tax on a pension???? How much is the pension $200k?
Katietsu
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Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?

Post by Katietsu »

22twain wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:46 pm We're retired, late 60s / early 70s, in a small town in the South, with a paid-off house.

Last year we spent a total of about $53K, of which:
$3K food (no eating out because of Covid)
This is remarkable. Even the USDA “thrifty plan” adds up to over $4500 a year for a married couple age 51-70. What are the key ways that you keep food costs this low?
scifilover
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Re: For those retired or FI, how much do you spend annually?

Post by scifilover »

I just reread this entire thread and found it interesting in what it said and did not say. We have been retired for over 19 years I totaled up our spending for that time (from Quicken), and it averaged $90k per year. The devil, as they say, is in the details.....
So here are the major categories...
Housing.................................16.4% Includes repairs, alterations, furniture, garden, HOA fees....etc
Income taxes..........................16.2% Includes significant Roth conversions, no state
Groceries................................9.1
Gifts Given..............................8.9 Includes 529 funding for grandkids
Medical..................................8.2 Includes med insurance
Prop Taxes...............................7.2 Includes a 2nd home
Travel....................................6.8
Util.......................................4.5
Autos.....................................4.1 Includes insurance
Insurance other than auto, med.....3.9
Telephone and Internet...............2.5
Computers..............................1.4
And a bunch of other little stuff for the balance.

I think the most interesting thing that I learned from this exercise was the cost of housing when you consider that the houses are paid for.
Somethingwitty92912
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Re: For those retired or FI, how much do you spend annually?

Post by Somethingwitty92912 »

MyBrothersAdvisor wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:14 am Good morning! This is my first post, but I'm a long-time lurker. I'm working through my projections and always get hung up on how much to assume I'll spend annually once I'm done working. What does everybody spend annually in retired not including your mortgage. I always assume $30k in addition to my projected pension which should be about $60k. I'll have health insurance for me and my husband in retirement so that should save us a bit. And I've conservatively assumed we'll have $900k in our investments at age 55 when I retire. We're hoping to travel quite a bit and/or get a second home to enjoy when our kids have kids and pass down to them once we're gone.

I guess my main question is: Does anybody spend significantly more than $90k/year in retirement? OR, maybe you don't but you see some giant holes in my projections and how I'm hoping our retirement will play out. We've got a number of years (more than 15, but less than 20) to correct things if it isn't going to work. I'd love to get a jump on it now! :)
About 9k. I enjoy things like reading an gardening, so, I guess it comes back to values.
Admiral
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Re: For those retired or FI, how much do you spend annually?

Post by Admiral »

Somethingwitty92912 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:57 am
MyBrothersAdvisor wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:14 am Good morning! This is my first post, but I'm a long-time lurker. I'm working through my projections and always get hung up on how much to assume I'll spend annually once I'm done working. What does everybody spend annually in retired not including your mortgage. I always assume $30k in addition to my projected pension which should be about $60k. I'll have health insurance for me and my husband in retirement so that should save us a bit. And I've conservatively assumed we'll have $900k in our investments at age 55 when I retire. We're hoping to travel quite a bit and/or get a second home to enjoy when our kids have kids and pass down to them once we're gone.

I guess my main question is: Does anybody spend significantly more than $90k/year in retirement? OR, maybe you don't but you see some giant holes in my projections and how I'm hoping our retirement will play out. We've got a number of years (more than 15, but less than 20) to correct things if it isn't going to work. I'd love to get a jump on it now! :)
About 9k. I enjoy things like reading an gardening, so, I guess it comes back to values.
Assume you mean “what you value” and not your values. I also value reading and gardening but spend way more that $9k and none of those things are related to my personal values.
stoptothink
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Re: For those retired or FI, how much do you spend annually?

Post by stoptothink »

bampf wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:24 am @SpaceCowboy It does matter where you live. I have a very nice house that runs about $6K a year in property tax. High end insurance runs about $5K (Car, umbrella and house but not including healthcare). Healthcare would be about $24K unless I qualified for ACA in which case it would be a lot less. But, if I spent $30K a year on food, utilities, gas, and discretionary that would work out to about $2500 a month. $85 a day or so. That's pretty reasonable if you are frugal and don't go out a lot. So, while it wouldn't be super fat, I could probably live on $40k to $50K a year based on where I live and anticipated expenses.
It definitely matters where you live. We're in Utah, my property taxes were $1700 last year and car/home insurance was <$1100. My family of 4 is looking at <$30k in expenses this year, granted we are many years from retirement (mid-late 30's) so healthcare isn't a huge expense (our premiums are currently $120/yr) and our home is paid off. Income taxes are currently more than all of our living expenses combined, we're saving ~60% of gross income and probably <5yrs from FI (but likely won't retire for 15yrs or so).
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CyclingDuo
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Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?

Post by CyclingDuo »

bg5 wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:10 pm I know that there are a lot of variables such as cost of living but I am curious what people spend annually in retirement.

My gut tells me that $50,000 annually would be living "high on the hog" assuming all debts are paid off.

If anyone is willing to share I think it would be interesting.

Thanks,

BG5
You are not kidding when you say there are a lot of variables! Is $136 per day living high on the hog? Maybe for some, but probably not for many others.

BLS data shows us the average per household (look up what BLS calls a household):

Image

And breaks it down per item spend category:

Image

Here is an older article from 2016 that focuses on the household spending of Americans age 55 and older (you would need to translate the numbers into 2021 dollars):

https://www.bls.gov/opub/btn/volume-5/s ... ricans.htm

Speaking of variables regarding how much portfolio size (and other income streams) to cover one's daily/annual spend - you could probably find answers here at BH that cover each line in this table as well as some lines above the table:

Image

CyclingDuo
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Wanderingwheelz
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Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?

Post by Wanderingwheelz »

Most of us can have a pretty lavish retirement with $70,000-$120,000 depending on what part of the country we live in as long as we are debt free.
3 Fund Portfolio. 70/30 AA. No mortgage. Simplicity is key.
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thursdaysd
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Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?

Post by thursdaysd »

Katietsu wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:31 am
22twain wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:46 pm We're retired, late 60s / early 70s, in a small town in the South, with a paid-off house.

Last year we spent a total of about $53K, of which:
$3K food (no eating out because of Covid)
This is remarkable. Even the USDA “thrifty plan” adds up to over $4500 a year for a married couple age 51-70. What are the key ways that you keep food costs this low?
Agreed. I spent nearly that much on "eating out" last year, and I'm single. "Eating out" being curb-side pickup from local restaurants, with higher-than-usual tips. My grocery bill was much higher, but that included more than food.

It really demonstrates that there is a huge variation, and the OP needs to start with his current expenditures and not worry too much about other people.
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Sheepdog
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Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?

Post by Sheepdog »

Something different.....
22 years retired
First 5 years (1999-2003) $57,850 per year average spending
Last 5 years (2016-2020) $72,091 per year average

What did we spend on certain categories last 2 years (2020-21) $86,320 per year

(top 5 categories) average per year, not including a new auto purchase in 2019 ($25,172)
Medical $16648 (not including medicare premiums from Social Security payments)
Income taxes $8199
Gifts to family $6382
Charities $6490
Groceries $6480

Old age spending is very different.

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mikejuss
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Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?

Post by mikejuss »

An adjacent question to the one that started this thread: how did you calculate--preretirement--what your spending in retirement would look like?
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Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?

Post by investnoob »

The answers lead me to believe that any retirement spending over what I spend is "high on the hog." Anything less than that isn't. Interesting.
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David Jay
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Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?

Post by David Jay »

investnoob wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:18 am The answers lead me to believe that any retirement spending over what I spend is "high on the hog." Anything less than that isn't. Interesting.
Yup. It is mostly self-referential.
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22twain
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Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?

Post by 22twain »

Katietsu wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:31 am
22twain wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:46 pm We're retired, late 60s / early 70s, in a small town in the South, with a paid-off house.

Last year we spent a total of about $53K, of which:
$3K food (no eating out because of Covid)
This is remarkable. Even the USDA “thrifty plan” adds up to over $4500 a year for a married couple age 51-70. What are the key ways that you keep food costs this low?
We buy most of our groceries at Aldi, and we avoid expensive cuts of meat.

My $3K figure was a "guesstimate" based on our making usually two trips to Aldi per month, with bills in the $100-$150 range. Just now I looked at the most recent six months of credit card statements, and got a total of almost exactly $1200 in groceries, including a couple of visits to non-Aldi supermarkets.

The overall total of $53K is obviously subject to major fluctuation because of one-off expenses which vary from year to year. Last year, our only big one-off purchase was $4K for new computers for both of us. This year so far, we've paid $8K for a new roof.
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GoneCamping
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Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?

Post by GoneCamping »

It's all relative and relatively speaking it seems like many here don't know how extremely fortunate they are. $100,000 annual income, $20,000 cruises are not high on the hog? Relative to what? The very wealthiest perhaps but here in the U.S. and even more so the world as a whole, definitely not. $100k puts one in the top 10% in the U.S. That's pretty high on the hog in my eyes but that phrase may have distinctly different meanings to different people.
rixer
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Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?

Post by rixer »

I live in California, house is paid for and we have low prop taxes. SS and draw from portfolio is 65k. We do fine, take trips ( in non covid times) and usually don't spend it all. We've always been frugal but we spend more now than when we were working and saving.
MathWizard
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Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?

Post by MathWizard »

arf1410 wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:45 pm
iamblessed wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:42 pm
We live on 22k so 50k is high on the hog here in the Midwest.
help me understand that one... I've been told to budget about $20k per year for health care ...
Pre-Medicare is expensive.

The bulk of your retirement should be after 65.
For MFJ, the cost per person for Medicare part B is $148.50/month each, so $3564 for a couple.
This is an 80/20 plan, and does not cover things like dental, eyeglasses, hearing aids.
For myself and my wife, adding a (very nice) medigap plan that also covers prescriptions brings us to
a bit over $11K/yr. I also assume 2% inflation in health care costs over standard inflation,
but that still averages less than $20K/yr. Medicare Advantage plans would cost even less.
delamer
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Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?

Post by delamer »

GoneCamping wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:49 am It's all relative and relatively speaking it seems like many here don't know how extremely fortunate they are. $100,000 annual income, $20,000 cruises are not high on the hog? Relative to what? The very wealthiest perhaps but here in the U.S. and even more so the world as a whole, definitely not. $100k puts one in the top 10% in the U.S. That's pretty high on the hog in my eyes but that phrase may have distinctly different meanings to different people.
On the contrary, many of us do appreciate how fortunate we are. My grandparents were all immigrants to this country who came here with nothing about 100 years ago.

The fact that I can take a $20,000 trip to visit one of the countries they came from is nothing short of miraculous.

As someone said earlier in the thread, “high on the hog” means someone who spends more than you. Or, I’d add, on things that you don’t value.
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Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?

Post by jeffyscott »

mikejuss wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:01 am An adjacent question to the one that started this thread: how did you calculate--preretirement--what your spending in retirement would look like?
For about 5 years I did a calculation using our income and subtracting things that would go away in retirement and adjusted for the things that would change significantly. For us this calculation was:

income
-payroll tax
-health insurance, life insurance, and pension contribution deductions
-savings
-income tax
=net other spending
+car replacement allowance
+retirement income taxes
+retirement health care costs
=minimum retirement income (result was ~$50K for us)
+20% safety factor = desired retirement income (~$60K for us)

Over our first 4 years or so of retirement, this estimate has turned out to be pretty accurate. Our actual spending (excluding taxes on Roth conversions, but including the full cost of a new car) has been lower, but that is mostly just because the estimate included hitting max out of pocket for health care each year and that has happened in only one year and in the other out of pocket medical costs were low.
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delamer
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Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?

Post by delamer »

jeffyscott wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:29 am
mikejuss wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:01 am An adjacent question to the one that started this thread: how did you calculate--preretirement--what your spending in retirement would look like?
For about 5 years I did a calculation using our income and subtracting things that would go away in retirement and adjusted for the things that would change significantly. For us this calculation was:

income
-payroll tax
-health insurance, life insurance, and pension contribution deductions
-savings
-income tax
=net other spending
+car replacement allowance
+retirement income taxes
+retirement health care costs
=minimum retirement income (result was ~$50K for us)
+20% safety factor = desired retirement income (~$60K for us)

Over our first 4 years or so of retirement, this estimate has turned out to be pretty accurate. Our actual spending (excluding taxes on Roth conversions, but including the full cost of a new car) has been lower, but that is mostly just because the estimate included hitting max out of pocket for health care each year and that has happened in only one year and in the other out of pocket medical costs were low.
I followed a similar process.

If you have significant commuting costs, those would be another reduction in expenses.

And, of course, if you are changing homes or paying off a mortgage, those are important.
jhawktx
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Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?

Post by jhawktx »

If $50,000 is living high on the hog, we are living well above the tallest hog.
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Re: For those retired or FI, how much do you spend annually?

Post by Escapevelocity »

scifilover wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:54 am I just reread this entire thread and found it interesting in what it said and did not say. We have been retired for over 19 years I totaled up our spending for that time (from Quicken), and it averaged $90k per year. The devil, as they say, is in the details.....
So here are the major categories...
Housing.................................16.4% Includes repairs, alterations, furniture, garden, HOA fees....etc
Income taxes..........................16.2% Includes significant Roth conversions, no state
Groceries................................9.1
Gifts Given..............................8.9 Includes 529 funding for grandkids
Medical..................................8.2 Includes med insurance
Prop Taxes...............................7.2 Includes a 2nd home
Travel....................................6.8
Util.......................................4.5
Autos.....................................4.1 Includes insurance
Insurance other than auto, med.....3.9
Telephone and Internet...............2.5
Computers..............................1.4
And a bunch of other little stuff for the balance.

I think the most interesting thing that I learned from this exercise was the cost of housing when you consider that the houses are paid for.
Thanks for sharing. Just curious, do you ever eat at restaurants? For us, that will be a category probably rivaling groceries. Also, nothing for entertainment?
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thursdaysd
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Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?

Post by thursdaysd »

MathWizard wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:11 am The bulk of your retirement should be after 65.

For MFJ, the cost per person for Medicare part B is $148.50/month each, so $3564 for a couple.
This is an 80/20 plan, and does not cover things like dental, eyeglasses, hearing aids.
For myself and my wife, adding a (very nice) medigap plan that also covers prescriptions brings us to
a bit over $11K/yr. I also assume 2% inflation in health care costs over standard inflation,
but that still averages less than $20K/yr. Medicare Advantage plans would cost even less.
Not sure what you mean by "the bulk of your retirement should be after 65". I retired from my megacorp at 53. I did part-time contract work (some of it for the megacorp) for four more years, but I haven't worked since I turned 57. But if you mean you shouldn't withdraw from your portfolio until you turn 65, I still haven't made significant withdrawals and I'm in my 70s (they will start when I move to a CCRC in a couple of years).

Prospective retirees should bear in mind that the cost of Medicare, in terms of what is withheld from SS, depends on your income. My cost went up noticeably when I started RMDs. The cost of my Medigap plan has also increased, year by year. And anyone can have an unexpected accident or diagnosis that will temporarily or permanently increase medical costs.
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MathWizard
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Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?

Post by MathWizard »

thursdaysd wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:56 pm
MathWizard wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:11 am The bulk of your retirement should be after 65.

For MFJ, the cost per person for Medicare part B is $148.50/month each, so $3564 for a couple.
This is an 80/20 plan, and does not cover things like dental, eyeglasses, hearing aids.
For myself and my wife, adding a (very nice) medigap plan that also covers prescriptions brings us to
a bit over $11K/yr. I also assume 2% inflation in health care costs over standard inflation,
but that still averages less than $20K/yr. Medicare Advantage plans would cost even less.
Not sure what you mean by "the bulk of your retirement should be after 65". I retired from my megacorp at 53. I did part-time contract work (some of it for the megacorp) for four more years, but I haven't worked since I turned 57. But if you mean you shouldn't withdraw from your portfolio until you turn 65, I still haven't made significant withdrawals and I'm in my 70s (they will start when I move to a CCRC in a couple of years).

Prospective retirees should bear in mind that the cost of Medicare, in terms of what is withheld from SS, depends on your income. My cost went up noticeably when I started RMDs. The cost of my Medigap plan has also increased, year by year. And anyone can have an unexpected accident or diagnosis that will temporarily or permanently increase medical costs.
I was answering arf1410's post:
help me understand that one... I've been told to budget about $20k per year for health care ...
in that health care should not be $20K/yr. forever, maybe before age 65, but not after.

Unless there is some reason to expect an early demise, even fully retiring at 57, there is only 8 years until 65, and
you should expect to live much more than 8 years after 65. I plan for 85 for me and 100 for my wife. (I'm only planning
for about 5 years more than the average in our family histories.)

No, I did not imply that one should not draw from a portfolio before age 65. What would one live one then, unless
one has a pension .

My plans have me withdrawing more from my portfolio before age 70 so that I can delay claiming SS, and to do
some travelling before we can't or no longer enjoy travel.

We will also have very low RMDs, as I plan on converting most of the tax deferred to Roth.
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SmileyFace
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Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?

Post by SmileyFace »

investnoob wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:18 am The answers lead me to believe that any retirement spending over what I spend is "high on the hog." Anything less than that isn't. Interesting.
Similar to the fact that everyone going slower than me on the road driving is a slow-poke while everyone going faster is plain-old-crazy :)

For many $50K pays for taxes and medical expenses - then you have to eat.
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thursdaysd
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Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?

Post by thursdaysd »

I was answering arf1410's post:

help me understand that one... I've been told to budget about $20k per year for health care ...

in that health care should not be $20K/yr. forever, maybe before age 65, but not after.
Again, this varies. I was fortunate to have both a pension and retiree medical, although the retiree medical is now just a $3,000/year contribution. Therefore my medical expenses are now considerably above what they were before 65, as I am on the "open market", plus I now need to take an expensive medication. My costs were $10,000 last year, not including the megacorp's $3,000, and that's as a single. I was already out of the drug plan "donut hole" and paying 5% of retail, in March.
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Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?

Post by Marseille07 »

help me understand that one... I've been told to budget about $20k per year for health care ...
This is very concerning. How accurate is this estimate? I took a quick look at ACA and I'm seeing premium pricing around 300/mo~500/mo w/o any subsidies. Do we really need to budget 20k/year? That'll derail planning for lots of people if true.
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Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?

Post by backpacker61 »

bg5 wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:10 pm My gut tells me that $50,000 annually would be living "high on the hog" assuming all debts are paid off.
Not retired, but my "spreadsheet estimate" came to ~ 56K$/yr (house & vehicle paid off, MCOL area). This assumes a retirement before 65 and purchasing health insurance on an exchange.

Be sure to budget for replacing vehicles, house maintenance, and other large items that come up periodically.
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Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?

Post by TheNightsToCome »

MathWizard wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:11 am
arf1410 wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:45 pm
iamblessed wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:42 pm
We live on 22k so 50k is high on the hog here in the Midwest.
help me understand that one... I've been told to budget about $20k per year for health care ...
Pre-Medicare is expensive.

The bulk of your retirement should be after 65.
For MFJ, the cost per person for Medicare part B is $148.50/month each, so $3564 for a couple.
This is an 80/20 plan, and does not cover things like dental, eyeglasses, hearing aids.
For myself and my wife, adding a (very nice) medigap plan that also covers prescriptions brings us to
a bit over $11K/yr. I also assume 2% inflation in health care costs over standard inflation,
but that still averages less than $20K/yr. Medicare Advantage plans would cost even less.
Thanks for the post-Medicare age data.
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Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?

Post by Marseille07 »

Thank you. I'm sensing 20k/year is probably too high, but 10k/year is very much real. Sigh, another cause of OMY...
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Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?

Post by MP123 »

Marseille07 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:53 pm
help me understand that one... I've been told to budget about $20k per year for health care ...
This is very concerning. How accurate is this estimate? I took a quick look at ACA and I'm seeing premium pricing around 300/mo~500/mo w/o any subsidies. Do we really need to budget 20k/year? That'll derail planning for lots of people if true.
ACA premiums are age based in almost all states, unlike employer provided insurance.

$300-500/mo unsubsidized might be about right for age 35-ish, but by late 50s early 60s will be much much higher, easily over $1000-1200 per person.

Don't plan on paying young people's premiums for the rest of your life, because you'll be a year older next year, and the next...

You can get full rate tables from most insurer's websites to help plan ahead.
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Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?

Post by Marseille07 »

MP123 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:25 pm
Marseille07 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:53 pm
help me understand that one... I've been told to budget about $20k per year for health care ...
This is very concerning. How accurate is this estimate? I took a quick look at ACA and I'm seeing premium pricing around 300/mo~500/mo w/o any subsidies. Do we really need to budget 20k/year? That'll derail planning for lots of people if true.
ACA premiums are age based in almost all states, unlike employer provided insurance.

$300-500/mo unsubsidized might be about right for age 35-ish, but by late 50s early 60s will be much much higher, easily over $1000-1200 per person.

Don't plan on paying young people's premiums for the rest of your life, because you'll be a year older next year, and the next...

You can get full rate tables from most insurer's websites to help plan ahead.
That's kind of scary. Then maybe 20k/year per person estimate isn't that crazy after all. I'll call it 15k/year, thank you.
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MP123
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Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?

Post by MP123 »

Marseille07 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:35 pm
MP123 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:25 pm
Marseille07 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:53 pm
help me understand that one... I've been told to budget about $20k per year for health care ...
This is very concerning. How accurate is this estimate? I took a quick look at ACA and I'm seeing premium pricing around 300/mo~500/mo w/o any subsidies. Do we really need to budget 20k/year? That'll derail planning for lots of people if true.
ACA premiums are age based in almost all states, unlike employer provided insurance.

$300-500/mo unsubsidized might be about right for age 35-ish, but by late 50s early 60s will be much much higher, easily over $1000-1200 per person.

Don't plan on paying young people's premiums for the rest of your life, because you'll be a year older next year, and the next...

You can get full rate tables from most insurer's websites to help plan ahead.
That's kind of scary. Then maybe 20k/year per person estimate isn't that crazy after all. I'll call it 15k/year, thank you.
Also, ACA plans have high out of pocket maximums. Hopefully you won't hit them every year but in a bad year (or a few) you might need to pay at least $8-17k in addition to your premiums.

Its very hard to plan, and there are all sorts of possible future changes, but it's not cheap.
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Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?

Post by Marseille07 »

MP123 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:59 pm Also, ACA plans have high out of pocket maximums. Hopefully you won't hit them every year but in a bad year (or a few) you might need to pay at least $8-17k in addition to your premiums.

Its very hard to plan, and there are all sorts of possible future changes, but it's not cheap.
Right, though won't there be some subsidies to lower the cost later? I haven't looked too closely as to who qualifies for how much (probably depends on the plan / state).

I've budgeted 30K/year for travel, if SHTF I guess I'd need to slash travel for medical cost - which is probably reasonable, because travel cost & medical cost should have an inverse relationship.
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Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?

Post by Normchad »

Marseille07 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:53 pm
help me understand that one... I've been told to budget about $20k per year for health care ...
This is very concerning. How accurate is this estimate? I took a quick look at ACA and I'm seeing premium pricing around 300/mo~500/mo w/o any subsidies. Do we really need to budget 20k/year? That'll derail planning for lots of people if true.
My wife and I are both 52. An ACA silver plan is $2K/month for us before any subsidies. Deductibles and co-pays are in top,of that.

We’ve priced it in a few different markets, and the prices have been consistent everywhere we’ve looked.

I’ve heard (but not verified) that these prices go up quickly with age. So if you priced it as a 40 year old,you might get a much lower price.
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Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?

Post by Marseille07 »

Normchad wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:24 pm
Marseille07 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:53 pm
help me understand that one... I've been told to budget about $20k per year for health care ...
This is very concerning. How accurate is this estimate? I took a quick look at ACA and I'm seeing premium pricing around 300/mo~500/mo w/o any subsidies. Do we really need to budget 20k/year? That'll derail planning for lots of people if true.
My wife and I are both 52. An ACA silver plan is $2K/month for us before any subsidies. Deductibles and co-pays are in top,of that.

We’ve priced it in a few different markets, and the prices have been consistent everywhere we’ve looked.

I’ve heard (but not verified) that these prices go up quickly with age. So if you priced it as a 40 year old,you might get a much lower price.
Thank you for sharing the numbers. Maybe I really need to budget 20k/year just to be on the safe side. I'll think about it with respect to my travel budget.
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Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?

Post by JS-Elcano »

22twain wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:46 pm We're retired, late 60s / early 70s, in a small town in the South, with a paid-off house.

Last year we spent a total of about $53K, of which:

$8K income tax (fed + state)
$12K donations (charitable + political)
$7K Medicare premiums
$9K housing-related (utilities, property tax, insurance, maintenance)
$3K food (no eating out because of Covid)
$14K everything else (cars, new computers, hobbies, etc.)

If it hadn't been for Covid, we would have spent more for eating out and travel.

Only one of us is collecting Social Security and taking RMDs from tax-deferred accounts. After the other one starts in a few years, our tax bill will probably increase to about $30K.
3k for food. I don't know how you do this for two people. If I buy fresh vegetables, fruit, fish, meat, butter, eggs, cheese and a bottle of wine, that's $150 per week for one person while keeping an eye on the budget, not free-wheeling. $7200 per year. How do you keep it to 3K? If you don't mind, what does a weekly shopping list look like for you?
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Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?

Post by celia »

I've seen a lot of Bogleheads who will have to withdrawn RMDs over $100K when they turn 72, unless they do HUGE Roth conversions before then. That doesn't mean they have to spend the RMD, but that they have to withdraw and pay taxes on it. Are taxes considered an expense? What about the extra taxes due because of a Roth conversions or an RMD?

Some people save on their RMD taxes by donating $100K per spouse to charity instead of putting it in their taxable account. Are charitable donations considered spending?

Even for a retiree with no health issues, Medicare premiums are $148/mo, supplemental insurance ~$200/mo, drug plan ~$50/mo for each of them (costs are partly dependent on where you live). So that alone is $9,552 for a couple who doesn't need to see a doctor. Then there are surcharges on Medicare premiums (Part B and Part D) for those with MAGI over $176K two year previously (aka IRMAA). Are Medicare premiums and surcharges counted as an expense?
A dollar in Roth is worth more than a dollar in a taxable account. A dollar in taxable is worth more than a dollar in a tax-deferred account.
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Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?

Post by rossington »

celia wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:49 pm I've seen a lot of Bogleheads who will have to withdrawn RMDs over $100K when they turn 72, unless they do HUGE Roth conversions before then. That doesn't mean they have to spend the RMD, but that they have to withdraw and pay taxes on it. Are taxes considered an expense? What about the extra taxes due because of a Roth conversions or an RMD?

Some people save on their RMD taxes by donating $100K per spouse to charity instead of putting it in their taxable account. Are charitable donations considered spending?

Even for a retiree with no health issues, Medicare premiums are $148/mo, supplemental insurance ~$200/mo, drug plan ~$50/mo for each of them (costs are partly dependent on where you live). So that alone is $9,552 for a couple who doesn't need to see a doctor. Then there are surcharges on Medicare premiums (Part B and Part D) for those with MAGI over $176K two year previously (aka IRMAA). Are Medicare premiums and surcharges counted as an expense?
I know these are rhetorical questions but yes...if it is outgoing $$, it is an expense.
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Re: For those retired or FI, how much do you spend annually?

Post by scifilover »

Escapevelocity wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:49 pm
scifilover wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:54 am I just reread this entire thread and found it interesting in what it said and did not say. We have been retired for over 19 years I totaled up our spending for that time (from Quicken), and it averaged $90k per year. The devil, as they say, is in the details.....
So here are the major categories...
Housing.................................16.4% Includes repairs, alterations, furniture, garden, HOA fees....etc
Income taxes..........................16.2% Includes significant Roth conversions, no state
Groceries................................9.1
Gifts Given..............................8.9 Includes 529 funding for grandkids
Medical..................................8.2 Includes med insurance
Prop Taxes...............................7.2 Includes a 2nd home
Travel....................................6.8
Util.......................................4.5
Autos.....................................4.1 Includes insurance
Insurance other than auto, med.....3.9
Telephone and Internet...............2.5
Computers..............................1.4
And a bunch of other little stuff for the balance.

I think the most interesting thing that I learned from this exercise was the cost of housing when you consider that the houses are paid for.
Thanks for sharing. Just curious, do you ever eat at restaurants? For us, that will be a category probably rivaling groceries. Also, nothing for entertainment?
RE: Restaurants......been on a low sodium diet for a long time....hard to do at restaurants...
RE: Entertainment.....We use to have symphony tickets, theater tickets, etc, but those events are in our relatively nearby metro area and the traffic, which was always bad, is really terrible. There are no transit options except for rush hour week days. We have big screens, and spend freely on cable/ streaming, and I don't parse those items for entertainment classification.
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Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?

Post by stoptothink »

JS-Elcano wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:38 pm
22twain wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:46 pm We're retired, late 60s / early 70s, in a small town in the South, with a paid-off house.

Last year we spent a total of about $53K, of which:

$8K income tax (fed + state)
$12K donations (charitable + political)
$7K Medicare premiums
$9K housing-related (utilities, property tax, insurance, maintenance)
$3K food (no eating out because of Covid)
$14K everything else (cars, new computers, hobbies, etc.)

If it hadn't been for Covid, we would have spent more for eating out and travel.

Only one of us is collecting Social Security and taking RMDs from tax-deferred accounts. After the other one starts in a few years, our tax bill will probably increase to about $30K.
3k for food. I don't know how you do this for two people. If I buy fresh vegetables, fruit, fish, meat, butter, eggs, cheese and a bottle of wine, that's $150 per week for one person while keeping an eye on the budget, not free-wheeling. $7200 per year. How do you keep it to 3K? If you don't mind, what does a weekly shopping list look like for you?
We're at ~$4k/yr for a family of 4. We eat much differently than most families (wife and I intermittent fast, almost no processed food or "snacks", no alcohol, no expensive cuts of meat, ~3 dozen eggs a week (5 dozen is ~$5), lots and lots of bags of frozen veggies, 25lbs. bags of oat groats/brown rice, wife makes homemade sourdough bread and pancakes for kids, etc.); I'm similarly interested in what people who spend $150/week for an individual for just groceries (and say they are keeping an eye on budget) are eating at home? We shop about every 10-12 days and I'm not sure we've ever spent $150 in a single stop at the grocery store.

Is this Whole Foods, free range, organic, etc. or are you having a ribeye or Chilean sea bass filet every night for dinner?
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Re: For those retired or FI, how much do you spend annually?

Post by Marmot »

smitcat wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:27 am Without income taxes our spending is pretty much what we expected/budgeted:
$60K per year covers all expenses to live comfortably but no extras
$120K per year is what we budget to do everything we want to do
Close to your budget. 75 per year with 120 cap. 2 houses, retired 6 years,big travel budget which we don’t seem to use enough :happy
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Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?

Post by Marmot »

Marseille07 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:53 pm
help me understand that one... I've been told to budget about $20k per year for health care ...
This is very concerning. How accurate is this estimate? I took a quick look at ACA and I'm seeing premium pricing around 300/mo~500/mo w/o any subsidies. Do we really need to budget 20k/year? That'll derail planning for lots of people if true.
We pay 20k a year for mega Corp retiree medical insurance. That being said it is good medical insurance as those thing go. Our choice, we could go ACA, but I could also drive a pinto.
Marty....don't go to the year 2020....Dr. Emmett Brown
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Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?

Post by Marseille07 »

stoptothink wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:35 am
JS-Elcano wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:38 pm
22twain wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:46 pm We're retired, late 60s / early 70s, in a small town in the South, with a paid-off house.

Last year we spent a total of about $53K, of which:

$8K income tax (fed + state)
$12K donations (charitable + political)
$7K Medicare premiums
$9K housing-related (utilities, property tax, insurance, maintenance)
$3K food (no eating out because of Covid)
$14K everything else (cars, new computers, hobbies, etc.)

If it hadn't been for Covid, we would have spent more for eating out and travel.

Only one of us is collecting Social Security and taking RMDs from tax-deferred accounts. After the other one starts in a few years, our tax bill will probably increase to about $30K.
3k for food. I don't know how you do this for two people. If I buy fresh vegetables, fruit, fish, meat, butter, eggs, cheese and a bottle of wine, that's $150 per week for one person while keeping an eye on the budget, not free-wheeling. $7200 per year. How do you keep it to 3K? If you don't mind, what does a weekly shopping list look like for you?
We're at ~$4k/yr for a family of 4. We eat much differently than most families (wife and I intermittent fast, almost no processed food or "snacks", no alcohol, no expensive cuts of meat, ~3 dozen eggs a week (5 dozen is ~$5), lots and lots of bags of frozen veggies, 25lbs. bags of oat groats/brown rice, wife makes homemade sourdough bread and pancakes for kids, etc.); I'm similarly interested in what people who spend $150/week for an individual for just groceries (and say they are keeping an eye on budget) are eating at home? We shop about every 10-12 days and I'm not sure we've ever spent $150 in a single stop at the grocery store.

Is this Whole Foods, free range, organic, etc. or are you having a ribeye or Chilean sea bass filet every night for dinner?
For those spending 150/wk, yeah. I don't know what they're complaining really, they're choosing to buy expensive foods.
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Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?

Post by jeffyscott »

rossington wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:12 am
celia wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:49 pm I've seen a lot of Bogleheads who will have to withdrawn RMDs over $100K when they turn 72, unless they do HUGE Roth conversions before then. That doesn't mean they have to spend the RMD, but that they have to withdraw and pay taxes on it. Are taxes considered an expense? What about the extra taxes due because of a Roth conversions or an RMD?

Some people save on their RMD taxes by donating $100K per spouse to charity instead of putting it in their taxable account. Are charitable donations considered spending?

Even for a retiree with no health issues, Medicare premiums are $148/mo, supplemental insurance ~$200/mo, drug plan ~$50/mo for each of them (costs are partly dependent on where you live). So that alone is $9,552 for a couple who doesn't need to see a doctor. Then there are surcharges on Medicare premiums (Part B and Part D) for those with MAGI over $176K two year previously (aka IRMAA). Are Medicare premiums and surcharges counted as an expense?
I know these are rhetorical questions but yes...if it is outgoing $$, it is an expense.
Yes, but they are optional expenses or the timing is optional. And none of these expenses would have any impact on the OP's implied question, treating the "high on the hog" as hyperbole: "Can you live comfortably in retirement on $50K per year, assuming no debt?" (And I think the assumption is also that you own your home, that you are not paying rent out of that $50K...at least that was my assumption.)

I don't have to pay taxes on Roth conversions, if I don't do the conversions. Presumably one is doing the conversions in order to pay less tax now, rather than more tax later. Perhaps a better way to ask the, approximately equivalent after-tax, question would be something like: "Can you live comfortably on $45,000 per year, excluding income taxes?".

You can choose not to donate, if you want/need to use the money for something else, in order to attain you desired level on the hog.

You can choose less costly Medicare coverage, I think in many places you can get all the coverage for just the $148 per month in a Medicare advantage plan (assuming not subject to IRMAA and if you are living on $50K as the OP suggests, then you are not). But then maybe having Cadillac (or should the phrase now be "Tesla") coverage is part of being high on that old hog?
The two greatest enemies of the equity fund investor are expenses and emotions. ― John C. Bogle
Marseille07
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Re: How much do you spend annually in retirement?

Post by Marseille07 »

Marmot wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:54 am
Marseille07 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:53 pm
help me understand that one... I've been told to budget about $20k per year for health care ...
This is very concerning. How accurate is this estimate? I took a quick look at ACA and I'm seeing premium pricing around 300/mo~500/mo w/o any subsidies. Do we really need to budget 20k/year? That'll derail planning for lots of people if true.
We pay 20k a year for mega Corp retiree medical insurance. That being said it is good medical insurance as those thing go. Our choice, we could go ACA, but I could also drive a pinto.
This is a good choice in my opinion. I will look if my company offers something like this and how much it might be.
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