Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

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michaeljc70
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by michaeljc70 »

benderbr wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:21 pm
michaeljc70 wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:07 pm No offense, but comparing a Tesla to a Chevy Bolt is like comparing an orange to an avocado. And as I indicated above I am Tesla intrigued but not a big fan.
At least they are both EVs :happy . Someone earlier was comparing it to a used Camry.

I think the Bolt is a great EV for those who can't (or choose not to) afford a Tesla. There is nothing wrong with the Bolt, but if price were equal a vast majority would choose the Tesla.
That is like saying the Toyota Corolla and Mercedes S500 are both ICE vehicles and comparing them. Maybe that is extreme...but comparisons based on isolated things like it is a 4 door sedan or mid-size suv aren't really relevant given vast disparities in price and features. I mean, are you going to compare a Leaf to a Tesla?
harikaried
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by harikaried »

benderbr wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:00 pm Good video that showcases both cars. Be aware it's a couple years old so a bit dated on pricing and some features.
Yeah, the video on YouTube is dated May 2020, but the video seems to be from 2017 where the air vent controls were the initial basic design. I guess to that point, yes Tesla can and does ship things out before the software is fully implemented whereas another company like Chevy might make sure everything is done, but then again Tesla does implement new things that probably wasn't even planned when the vehicle started shipping.

Looking at the sales of the Model 3 and Bolt in the last few years in the US…
2017: 2k Model 3 vs 23k Bolt
2018: 140k Model 3 vs 18k Bolt
2019: 159k Model 3 vs 16k Bolt (301k Global Model 3)
Estimated 2020 through November: ~300k Global Model 3
benderbr
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by benderbr »

The leaf has MSRP of 43k if you want the long range and leather seats, so yes?
Pandemic Bangs
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by Pandemic Bangs »

benderbr wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:21 pm There is nothing wrong with the Bolt, but if price were equal a vast majority would choose the Tesla.
Yes. It happens to be twice the price, hence the BH-style conversation. Between an M3 (real M3; not the Tesla one :D) and a Camry, most people would choose the M3. I don't think anyone was arguing that the Bolt was superior. Although for me, it may be because I like the abundance of analog controls and the user-friendly interface. I get enough screen time outside my car :D.

Also consider that Tesla pricing (the last time I checked) already includes the federal tax credit :oops:. I know of no other EV seller that does that.

I'm not in love with the Bolt. Spouse insisted on an EV to replace her second minivan and we looked together. The Bolt is a surprisingly complete, user-friendly, and appealing package. And I still can't believe we got a $44K EV for $24K last year. And we can fix it we ever have to!
Wait 'til I get my money right | Then you can't tell me nothing, right?
Pandemic Bangs
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Re: Tesla purchase any significant downside?

Post by Pandemic Bangs »

lightheir wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:47 pm
??Seriously?? Tesla is marketed as a performance car but does not live up to the hype??
I did not make that claim. Are you thinking of someone else?

I'm sure there are YouTube videos of people doing crazy things in every car. That does not apply to any of the arguments that I have seen on this thread.

My point is that performance is the "hook" but the typical user appears to be the upgrading Prius buyer. Nothing wrong with that; I just think it's silly. That is not unique to Tesla; most performance cars are bought by the older, well-heeled buyers who access a tiny fraction of the potential. I have a water heater with more capacity than I need. Different levels of crazy :D.
Wait 'til I get my money right | Then you can't tell me nothing, right?
vasaver
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by vasaver »

Pandemic Bangs wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:22 pm
benderbr wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:21 pm There is nothing wrong with the Bolt, but if price were equal a vast majority would choose the Tesla.
Yes. It happens to be twice the price, hence the BH-style conversation. Between an M3 (real M3; not the Tesla one :D) and a Camry, most people would choose the M3. I don't think anyone was arguing that the Bolt was superior. Although for me, it may be because I like the abundance of analog controls and the user-friendly interface. I get enough screen time outside my car :D.

Also consider that Tesla pricing (the last time I checked) already includes the federal tax credit :oops:. I know of no other EV seller that does that.

I'm not in love with the Bolt. Spouse insisted on an EV to replace her second minivan and we looked together. The Bolt is a surprisingly complete, user-friendly, and appealing package. And I still can't believe we got a $44K EV for $24K last year. And we can fix it we ever have to!
I can't believe a 3 year old bolt is 12k....that is amazing.
lightheir
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Re: Tesla purchase any significant downside?

Post by lightheir »

Pandemic Bangs wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:30 pm
lightheir wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:47 pm
??Seriously?? Tesla is marketed as a performance car but does not live up to the hype??
I did not make that claim. Are you thinking of someone else?

I'm sure there are YouTube videos of people doing crazy things in every car. That does not apply to any of the arguments that I have seen on this thread.

My point is that performance is the "hook" but the typical user appears to be the upgrading Prius buyer. Nothing wrong with that; I just think it's silly. That is not unique to Tesla; most performance cars are bought by the older, well-heeled buyers who access a tiny fraction of the potential. I have a water heater with more capacity than I need. Different levels of crazy :D.
No, you def made that claim:

"It irks me that Teslas are marketed as performance cars and driven like golf carts.

Sorry: virally marketed -- and carefully calculated to be virally marketable. They have an astronomical budget for that. Ludicrous mode. Easter eggs. Their entire product design is aimed at catalyzing viral marketing. Like on this forum :D. Maybe their annual report says they spend no money on print advertising, etc., but that's a silly metric in this case."


The clear and obvious implication of your bolded statement above is that the marketing hype exceeds the performance.

And in terms of 'other cars can do similar things', NO they cannot do those performance-related things that I mentioned where Teslas routinely outrun Lambos, top porsches, ferraris. etc. When those recent videos were made, NO other car in that price range could touch what Tesla was doing in terms of beating these supercars in drag races. That is literally screaming PERFORMANCE in real-world situations.

When you say it's all just viral marketing, you're clearly implying that the performance isn't there, and people just buy into the marketing when they talk about performance. The performance is clearly there, evidence is there for everyone for see, by both pro and amateur reviewers showing their work.
Workaholic
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Re: Tesla purchase any significant downside?

Post by Workaholic »

lightheir wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:13 pm
Pandemic Bangs wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:30 pm
lightheir wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:47 pm
??Seriously?? Tesla is marketed as a performance car but does not live up to the hype??
I did not make that claim. Are you thinking of someone else?

I'm sure there are YouTube videos of people doing crazy things in every car. That does not apply to any of the arguments that I have seen on this thread.

My point is that performance is the "hook" but the typical user appears to be the upgrading Prius buyer. Nothing wrong with that; I just think it's silly. That is not unique to Tesla; most performance cars are bought by the older, well-heeled buyers who access a tiny fraction of the potential. I have a water heater with more capacity than I need. Different levels of crazy :D.
No, you def made that claim:

"It irks me that Teslas are marketed as performance cars and driven like golf carts.

Sorry: virally marketed -- and carefully calculated to be virally marketable. They have an astronomical budget for that. Ludicrous mode. Easter eggs. Their entire product design is aimed at catalyzing viral marketing. Like on this forum :D. Maybe their annual report says they spend no money on print advertising, etc., but that's a silly metric in this case."


The clear and obvious implication of your bolded statement above is that the marketing hype exceeds the performance.

And in terms of 'other cars can do similar things', NO they cannot do those performance-related things that I mentioned where Teslas routinely outrun Lambos, top porsches, ferraris. etc. When those recent videos were made, NO other car in that price range could touch what Tesla was doing in terms of beating these supercars in drag races. That is literally screaming PERFORMANCE in real-world situations.

When you say it's all just viral marketing, you're clearly implying that the performance isn't there, and people just buy into the marketing when they talk about performance. The performance is clearly there, evidence is there for everyone for see, by both pro and amateur reviewers showing their work.
I think he is saying that while YES Tesla's DO have performance (when so equipped), other vehicles at a comparable price point offer SIMILAR performance attributes when talking about $90K+ vehicles. Look at the BMW M5, Mercedes E63 AMG, Cadillac CTS-V (now discontinued). These vehicles, while not electric, offer similar levels of performance with far better luxury appointments in a comparable price range.

Lets be realistic...most Tesla buyers are purchasing their vehicles because they're the "IN" vehicle to buy...popularity, (perceived) exclusivity, and uniqueness. Just like any high-end sports car or performance sedan, most buyers aren't pushing their vehicles to the performance limit. As someone else said, most Tesla's seem to be driven by wealthy baby boomers and middle-aged guys looking to be young and cool.
boglehat
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by boglehat »

fmhealth wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:02 pm Hello. I've done a fairly significant level of due diligence but the results have been so one-sided on the positive side that I'm concerned that I'm missing some of the negatives. Does anyone care to weigh-in on any problems they've experienced or are aware of? Thanks so much.

Be Well,
fmhealth
I, but most importantly, DW love our Model 3 Long Range.
- Highly recommend.
- Model 3 SR+ is better value than Long Range in my opinion and depending on your needs, but it wasn't in inventory when we were purchasing right before the federal incentives were coming to an end.
- Don't get the full-self driving option
- The hype is real

Obviously not an investment. But what's the point of making and amassing money if we can't take a bit out of the table and have fun with it.
investor997
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Re: Tesla purchase any significant downside?

Post by investor997 »

Workaholic wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:37 pmLets be realistic...most Tesla buyers are purchasing their vehicles because they're the "IN" vehicle to buy...popularity, (perceived) exclusivity, and uniqueness. Just like any high-end sports car or performance sedan, most buyers aren't pushing their vehicles to the performance limit. As someone else said, most Tesla's seem to be driven by wealthy baby boomers and middle-aged guys looking to be young and cool.
This couldn't be further from the truth. There is nothing exclusive or unique about a Tesla. Here in Southern California, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a Model 3.

Disclaimer: I've owned a Model 3 since October '18 (long purchase/ownership experience thread documented here). I didn't buy it because I thought it was "in". I bought solely on the merit of the product, especially compared to its peers.
boglehat
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by boglehat »

boglehat wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:16 pm
fmhealth wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:02 pm Hello. I've done a fairly significant level of due diligence but the results have been so one-sided on the positive side that I'm concerned that I'm missing some of the negatives. Does anyone care to weigh-in on any problems they've experienced or are aware of? Thanks so much.

Be Well,
fmhealth
I, but most importantly, DW love our Model 3 Long Range.
- Highly recommend.
- Model 3 SR+ is better value than Long Range in my opinion and depending on your needs, but it wasn't in inventory when we were purchasing right before the federal incentives were coming to an end.
- Don't get the full-self driving option
- The hype is real

Obviously not an investment. But what's the point of making and amassing money if we can't take a bit out of the table and have fun with it.
To add to my prior post, I think the main downside is that you won't be satisfied by the non-Tesla driving experience after owning a Tesla. We were OK with committing ourselves to buying Teslas for the rest of our lives. Half joking, but the principle holds: lifestyle inflation is real :sharebeer .
benderbr
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Re: Tesla purchase any significant downside?

Post by benderbr »

Workaholic wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:37 pm Lets be realistic...most Tesla buyers are purchasing their vehicles because they're the "IN" vehicle to buy...popularity, (perceived) exclusivity, and uniqueness. Just like any high-end sports car or performance sedan, most buyers aren't pushing their vehicles to the performance limit. As someone else said, most Tesla's seem to be driven by wealthy baby boomers and middle-aged guys looking to be young and cool.
I think you are mistaken here. Many Tesla buyers are coming from Prius and other efficient, inexpensive and practical cars. They are certainly not buying Tesla to be fashionable.
Workaholic
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Re: Tesla purchase any significant downside?

Post by Workaholic »

benderbr wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:24 pm
Workaholic wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:37 pm Lets be realistic...most Tesla buyers are purchasing their vehicles because they're the "IN" vehicle to buy...popularity, (perceived) exclusivity, and uniqueness. Just like any high-end sports car or performance sedan, most buyers aren't pushing their vehicles to the performance limit. As someone else said, most Tesla's seem to be driven by wealthy baby boomers and middle-aged guys looking to be young and cool.
I think you are mistaken here. Many Tesla buyers are coming from Prius and other efficient, inexpensive and practical cars. They are certainly not buying Tesla to be fashionable.
I would have to disagree with you. I know a handful of coworkers and friends who have purchased Tesla's and they did NOT come from efficient or inexpensive vehicles They traded anything from a BMW 5 Series to a Corvette and purchased a Tesla. They bought them because they were "hot" and stylish not for any reason of efficiency.

I'm sure there are multiple TYPES of people buying a Tesla but from my experience, the more affluent, luxury-car buyer is the one buying them.
benderbr
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by benderbr »

You are incorrect, please see evidence below. I understand your personal experience but so many people have formed incorrect perceptions of Tesla.

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019 ... ution.html

This is where all the performance talk is wrong too. Prius owners aren't buying for the performance. Sure there are some coming from BMW, but look at the whole list to see overall the cars people come from are pretty ordinary.
Workaholic
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by Workaholic »

benderbr wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:49 pm You are incorrect, please see evidence below. I understand your personal experience but so many people have formed incorrect perceptions of Tesla.

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019 ... ution.html

This is where all the performance talk is wrong too. Prius owners aren't buying for the performance. Sure there are some coming from BMW, but look at the whole list to see overall the cars people come from are pretty ordinary.
I would like to see a similar list for the Model S which base is around $70K. Surely you don't believe Prius owners are shelling out $40K+ more for a Tesla do you?
srt7
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by srt7 »

I don't own one so no personal experience to share but I do have a couple friends who own Model 3's and they're very happy with it.
joebruin77
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by joebruin77 »

I have owned a performance model 3 since 12-18. My last two cars prior to the Tesla were a Chevy Volt and a Subaru WRX (aka a poorman's Porsche). If you are a car enthusiast and enjoy spirited driving, the performance model 3 is actually one of the best values you can find. For example, with a 0 to 60 time of 3.0 seconds, the Tesla P3D is as fast or faster than some supercars. By comparison, the Acura NSX does 0 to 60 in 3.0 seconds and the 2020 Ferrari Portofino does it in 3.2 seconds.

Here are some other factors I would consider when making the decision to buy a Tesla or not:

1) Yes, Teslas are no longer eligible for the federal tax credit. However, they hold their resale values so much better. For example, according to a Forbes article, Tesla Model 3's hold about 65% of their value after 3 years. Chevy Bolt's hold about 41%.

2) Although I have not had any maintenance problems with my P3D, I would not own a Tesla unless I lived near a Tesla Service Center. I happen to live 10 minutes away from the nearst SC and they have been excellent. If your nearest Service Center is more than 45-60 minutes away, I would pass.

3) I think it is great that there are many more EV's coming on the market. However, so far Tesla still has one huge advantage and that is their Supercharger network. Going on a roadtrip in a Tesla, IMO, is a great experience. I have driven from LA to Vegas and LA to Big Sur. Stopping to charge at Superchargers was a seemless and easy experience. I would not have the same confidence taking a non-Tesla EV on a long road trip. For example, the TFL youtube channel recently had a video comparing charging a Model Y to charging a Ford Mustang Mach-E. They each wanted to see how much each car would charge in 15 minutes. The Tesla pulled up to the Supercharger and got a very good charge with no problems. The driver of the Ford had to move to 3 different Electrify America chargers before he found one that would work with his car. And when it finally charged, it charged at a much slower rate and was much more expensive. One day other manufacturers will catch up, but for now, Tesla's Superchargers offer the best roadtrip experience.

4) Re the earlier comment that there was a server outage that resulted in owners being locked out of their cars, that did indeed happen. However, not only is it extremely rare, but there is a simple solution if it were to happen again. Just keep one of the Tesla credit card type keys in your wallet for such emergencies. The people who got locked out relied solely on their iPhone. If you keep the credit card key in your wallet as a backup, you will never get locked out of your car.

5) Here is a great video review of the Tesla P3D by Doug Demuro, a well respected car reviewer:
https://youtu.be/YvsnIL0AIAk
benderbr
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by benderbr »

Workaholic wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:30 pm
benderbr wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:49 pm You are incorrect, please see evidence below. I understand your personal experience but so many people have formed incorrect perceptions of Tesla.

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019 ... ution.html

This is where all the performance talk is wrong too. Prius owners aren't buying for the performance. Sure there are some coming from BMW, but look at the whole list to see overall the cars people come from are pretty ordinary.
I would like to see a similar list for the Model S which base is around $70K. Surely you don't believe Prius owners are shelling out $40K+ more for a Tesla do you?
Tesla sells 10 Model 3s for every model S, but I think facts are not going to sway your perceptions.

I give up :sharebeer
Workaholic
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by Workaholic »

benderbr wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:14 pm
Workaholic wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:30 pm
benderbr wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:49 pm You are incorrect, please see evidence below. I understand your personal experience but so many people have formed incorrect perceptions of Tesla.

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019 ... ution.html

This is where all the performance talk is wrong too. Prius owners aren't buying for the performance. Sure there are some coming from BMW, but look at the whole list to see overall the cars people come from are pretty ordinary.
I would like to see a similar list for the Model S which base is around $70K. Surely you don't believe Prius owners are shelling out $40K+ more for a Tesla do you?
Tesla sells 10 Model 3s for every model S, but I think facts are not going to sway your perceptions.

I give up :sharebeer
And I imagine the majority of Tesla's are sold in California, but where I live, I certainly understand the demographic who purchases Tesla's and it's definitely the luxury car buyers who want the newest fad.
tm3
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by tm3 »

I got interested in Tesla per recommendation of a friend who is a "car nut" and who said it is a bang for the buck high performer with the potential savings on maintenance/fuel over an ICE vehicle.

After researching I've decided that joebruin's point below is the make or break:

joebruin77 wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:54 pm
2) Although I have not had any maintenance problems with my P3D, I would not own a Tesla unless I lived near a Tesla Service Center. I happen to live 10 minutes away from the nearst SC and they have been excellent. If your nearest Service Center is more than 45-60 minutes away, I would pass.
joebruin77
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by joebruin77 »

tm3 wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:16 am I got interested in Tesla per recommendation of a friend who is a "car nut" and who said it is a bang for the buck high performer with the potential savings on maintenance/fuel over an ICE vehicle.

After researching I've decided that joebruin's point below is the make or break:

joebruin77 wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:54 pm
2) Although I have not had any maintenance problems with my P3D, I would not own a Tesla unless I lived near a Tesla Service Center. I happen to live 10 minutes away from the nearst SC and they have been excellent. If your nearest Service Center is more than 45-60 minutes away, I would pass.
Yep, you cannot take your Tesla to an independent Tesla mechanic because 1) almost none exist 2) if you did, you may void the warranty.

That said, if you do live near a SC, the Tesla is indeed the easiest and lowest-cost car to maintain. I just completed my 2-year maintenance. It consisted of changing the cabin air filter, rotating and inspecting the tires, testing the brake fluid, and a couple other very minor things. The total cost was $130. Best of all, it was done by one of their mobile service technicians. He came to my home. Upon arrival, he texted me that he had arrived and asked for permission to begin working on the car. I didn't even have to go out and give him my key. He then texted me when he was done. Because I am working from home, I could continue working during the service - I did not have to take time off of work to go to the dealership.

One last point. Because the regenerative braking is done by the electric motors, you barely ever use the actual brakes. Therefore, it is not uncommon to go 150,000 miles or more before you have to change the brake pads.
Jack FFR1846
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

joebruin77 wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:19 am
Yep, you cannot take your Tesla to an independent Tesla mechanic because 1) almost none exist 2) if you did, you may void the warranty.
Well, you could take it to a place like the Electrified Garage. Rich has a youtube channel and has built many Teslas from salvage cars, put electric motors into a mini, an ATV, a rat rod. He documented the (horrible) experience of buying a used model X from Tesla. His current project is putting a Camaro V8 and proper manual transmission into a Tesla Model S.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid
joebruin77
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by joebruin77 »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:36 am
joebruin77 wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:19 am
Yep, you cannot take your Tesla to an independent Tesla mechanic because 1) almost none exist 2) if you did, you may void the warranty.
Well, you could take it to a place like the Electrified Garage. Rich has a youtube channel and has built many Teslas from salvage cars, put electric motors into a mini, an ATV, a rat rod. He documented the (horrible) experience of buying a used model X from Tesla. His current project is putting a Camaro V8 and proper manual transmission into a Tesla Model S.

I have seen many of Rich's videos and respect his contribution to the Tesla community. He has pointed out many of the positives and also, I believe in a helpful way, the negatives. That said, if you are fortunate enough to live within driving distance of his garage somewhere in the Northeast, he would be a great resource for people whose Teslas are out of warranty and need an alternative to the Service Center. Teslas under warranty, IMO, still need to go the nearest SC for major repairs.
tm3
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by tm3 »

joebruin77 wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:19 am
tm3 wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:16 am I got interested in Tesla per recommendation of a friend who is a "car nut" and who said it is a bang for the buck high performer with the potential savings on maintenance/fuel over an ICE vehicle.

After researching I've decided that joebruin's point below is the make or break:

joebruin77 wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:54 pm
2) Although I have not had any maintenance problems with my P3D, I would not own a Tesla unless I lived near a Tesla Service Center. I happen to live 10 minutes away from the nearst SC and they have been excellent. If your nearest Service Center is more than 45-60 minutes away, I would pass.
Yep, you cannot take your Tesla to an independent Tesla mechanic because 1) almost none exist 2) if you did, you may void the warranty.

That said, if you do live near a SC, the Tesla is indeed the easiest and lowest-cost car to maintain. I just completed my 2-year maintenance. It consisted of changing the cabin air filter, rotating and inspecting the tires, testing the brake fluid, and a couple other very minor things. The total cost was $130. Best of all, it was done by one of their mobile service technicians. He came to my home. Upon arrival, he texted me that he had arrived and asked for permission to begin working on the car. I didn't even have to go out and give him my key. He then texted me when he was done. Because I am working from home, I could continue working during the service - I did not have to take time off of work to go to the dealership.

One last point. Because the regenerative braking is done by the electric motors, you barely ever use the actual brakes. Therefore, it is not uncommon to go 150,000 miles or more before you have to change the brake pads.
That's impressive. Tesla certainly has a lot going for it, under the right circumstances.

We will probably all be driving hydrogen cars by the time a Tesla SC makes it to my small town, but I would not be surprised to see a SC open up in a larger city within 90 minutes of here and at that point I might pull the trigger on one.
benderbr
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by benderbr »

Tesla is planning to open 52 new SC in 2021. Hopefully this will reduce the big gaps. The sry doesn't have specific locations.

https://www.reuters.com/article/tesla-s ... edirect=in
bogledogle
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by bogledogle »

fmhealth wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:02 pm Hello. I've done a fairly significant level of due diligence but the results have been so one-sided on the positive side that I'm concerned that I'm missing some of the negatives. Does anyone care to weigh-in on any problems they've experienced or are aware of? Thanks so much.

Be Well,
fmhealth
Spare parts are not easy to come by if you end up in a fender bender. Lots of folks waiting too long for parts from what I hear.
Normchad
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by Normchad »

bogledogle wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:40 pm
fmhealth wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:02 pm Hello. I've done a fairly significant level of due diligence but the results have been so one-sided on the positive side that I'm concerned that I'm missing some of the negatives. Does anyone care to weigh-in on any problems they've experienced or are aware of? Thanks so much.

Be Well,
fmhealth
Spare parts are not easy to come by if you end up in a fender bender. Lots of folks waiting too long for parts from what I hear.
Yes, this is true. Recommend if you buy a Tesla, to get rental car coverage in case you’re in a fender bender.
illumination
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by illumination »

My brother has one and he will let you know several times in a conversation :D

He did concede repairs and service are just not like a more established brand. Like he needed a new windshield and it was a nightmare process. Something like that is fairly routine with any other make. No excuse for that considering Tesla is now worth almost what all the other car companies are combined.

He adores the car though (Model 3), I'm somewhere in between on it. I'm really impressed with the acceleration but I really dislike all the controls being a tablet in the center of the car. My biggest issue is you pay an enormous premium for it being electric, it's like a Corolla or Camry but with an electric engine.
joebruin77
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by joebruin77 »

illumination wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:20 pm My brother has one and he will let you know several times in a conversation :D

He did concede repairs and service are just not like a more established brand. Like he needed a new windshield and it was a nightmare process. Something like that is fairly routine with any other make. No excuse for that considering Tesla is now worth almost what all the other car companies are combined.

He adores the car though (Model 3), I'm somewhere in between on it. I'm really impressed with the acceleration but I really dislike all the controls being a tablet in the center of the car. My biggest issue is you pay an enormous premium for it being electric, it's like a Corolla or Camry but with an electric engine.
Although I have heard stories of poor Tesla service from other owners, I personally have had nothing but great service experiences. Also, I do think Tesla, having heard these complaints, is making progress on improving service and part availability.

As for the controls being on the screen, not only did I get used to it very quickly, I have grown to prefer it. I had to drive my wife's Honda Accord the other day for the first time in a while, and all the buttons, knobs, and dials seemed a bit overwhelming. And although my Tesla's interior is not quite at the same level as a Lexus or BMW, IMO it is well above that of a Camry.

Lastly, keep in mind that the 5 year total cost of ownership for a Tesla Model 3 is cheaper than that of a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry. And here is cost comaprison that shows, in some scenarios, the Tesla Model 3 is even cheaper over 5 years than a Honda Civic:

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/14/te ... r-5-years/
Jack FFR1846
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

I read through this and made my way to the low gas, high electric price chart, where the Civic is cheaper. The writer says it's the least likely scenario. Oh really. Come to anywhere in New England and those prices work. 20 cents a kWHr is exactly what I'm paying. They use $2.10 a gallon which is nearly what it is around me. Cheaper if I go to the cheap station a few miles away, if I'm doing errands west of me.

That assumes none of the shenanigans I pull to get gas for far cheaper than that.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid
joebruin77
Posts: 373
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by joebruin77 »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:29 pm
I read through this and made my way to the low gas, high electric price chart, where the Civic is cheaper. The writer says it's the least likely scenario. Oh really. Come to anywhere in New England and those prices work. 20 cents a kWHr is exactly what I'm paying. They use $2.10 a gallon which is nearly what it is around me. Cheaper if I go to the cheap station a few miles away, if I'm doing errands west of me.

That assumes none of the shenanigans I pull to get gas for far cheaper than that.
In my original post, I said that the Model 3 had a lower cost of ownership over 5 years in some scenarios compared to a Honda Civic. It does indeed depend on the cost of gas and the cost of electricity where you live. Here in Los Angeles county, gas prices average $3.42 a gallon. But the larger point is that if you look at the total cost of ownership, the base Tesla Model 3 is either less than or just slightly more than the cost of owning a Honda Civic. IMO, one does NOT pay an "enormous premium" just because it is electric, as you had stated in your earlier post. Plus, the base model Model 3 is a fun to drive, rear wheel drive car with ample power and instant torque.
benderbr
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by benderbr »

I think a model 3 is about a 10k up front premium if you compare to a similarly equipped Toyota/Honda. The premium dwindles over time and mileage as maintenance and gas's add up. So maybe it's 5k after 5 years? I decided it was worth it to me and considered that 5-10k going towards sustainable transport.
mpnret
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by mpnret »

benderbr wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:28 pm I think a model 3 is about a 10k up front premium if you compare to a similarly equipped Toyota/Honda. The premium dwindles over time and mileage as maintenance and gas's add up. So maybe it's 5k after 5 years? I decided it was worth it to me and considered that 5-10k going towards sustainable transport.
I also estimated the upfront premium at about 10k. Maybe a little less. Then the state gave me a 5k rebate plus no sales tax on EV. The price became attractive at that point.
tm3
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by tm3 »

illumination wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:20 pm No excuse for that considering Tesla is now worth almost what all the other car companies are combined.
Wow! Didn't know that one.

I'm fine with writing a lot of the service/reliability issues off to "growing pains" -- for a while. Long enough would change my opinion to "greed" and at that point my interest would significantly diminish.
illumination
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by illumination »

Another significant downside to Tesla...some people develop a cult-like allegiance to the brand and get angry if any downside is ever mentioned as if it was a form of blasphemy :sharebeer

If you can avoid that unfortunate side effect, it's a decent car to own.
bogledogle
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by bogledogle »

Normchad wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:16 pm
bogledogle wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:40 pm
fmhealth wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:02 pm Hello. I've done a fairly significant level of due diligence but the results have been so one-sided on the positive side that I'm concerned that I'm missing some of the negatives. Does anyone care to weigh-in on any problems they've experienced or are aware of? Thanks so much.

Be Well,
fmhealth
Spare parts are not easy to come by if you end up in a fender bender. Lots of folks waiting too long for parts from what I hear.
Yes, this is true. Recommend if you buy a Tesla, to get rental car coverage in case you’re in a fender bender.
Yeah, and make sure you have 3 months of rental car coverage. Rental car coverage is cheap.
benderbr
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by benderbr »

Here's a decent guide on Tesla repair process. Hope we never need it.

https://teslatap.com/articles/tesla-acc ... air-guide/
hicabob
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by hicabob »

tm3 wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:32 am
illumination wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:20 pm No excuse for that considering Tesla is now worth almost what all the other car companies are combined.
Wow! Didn't know that one.

I'm fine with writing a lot of the service/reliability issues off to "growing pains" -- for a while. Long enough would change my opinion to "greed" and at that point my interest would significantly diminish.
Actually that's not quite true. If you look at TSLA enterprise value (market cap + debt) which is a better measure of "worth" than just market cap it about equals VW+Toyota but not all others too. Almost all car companies other than tesla have huge debt.
benderbr
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by benderbr »

hicabob wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:32 pm
tm3 wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:32 am
illumination wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:20 pm No excuse for that considering Tesla is now worth almost what all the other car companies are combined.
Wow! Didn't know that one.

I'm fine with writing a lot of the service/reliability issues off to "growing pains" -- for a while. Long enough would change my opinion to "greed" and at that point my interest would significantly diminish.
Actually that's not quite true. If you look at TSLA enterprise value (market cap + debt) which is a better measure of "worth" than just market cap it about equals VW+Toyota but not all others too. Almost all car companies other than tesla have huge debt.
I don't understand why does debt add to a company's value? It seems like it would subtract and I thought that debt is priced into the stock.
random_walker_77
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by random_walker_77 »

benderbr wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:52 pm
hicabob wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:32 pm
tm3 wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:32 am
illumination wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:20 pm No excuse for that considering Tesla is now worth almost what all the other car companies are combined.
Wow! Didn't know that one.

I'm fine with writing a lot of the service/reliability issues off to "growing pains" -- for a while. Long enough would change my opinion to "greed" and at that point my interest would significantly diminish.
Actually that's not quite true. If you look at TSLA enterprise value (market cap + debt) which is a better measure of "worth" than just market cap it about equals VW+Toyota but not all others too. Almost all car companies other than tesla have huge debt.
I don't understand why does debt add to a company's value? It seems like it would subtract and I thought that debt is priced into the stock.
Enterprise value reflects what it'd truly cost to buy the company, including its "stuff". In this case, that includes what the shareholders would sell their stake for (market cap) and the amount to pay off the creditors. i.e. the company is the sum of what it owns and what it has borrowed
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/en ... evalue.asp
gerntz
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by gerntz »

I'd be happy to buy a small SUV EV if it has 500 miles range, fills up in 15 minutes, and costs around $35K. Are there any of those out there? Sedans/coupes are going the way of the dinosaur. Thanks.
joebruin77
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by joebruin77 »

gerntz wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:50 pm I'd be happy to buy a small SUV EV if it has 500 miles range, fills up in 15 minutes, and costs around $35K. Are there any of those out there? Sedans/coupes are going the way of the dinosaur. Thanks.

Nothing on the market yet that meets all of your criteria, but there are a couple that are getting close:

1) The 2020 Kia Soul EV - Range is 243 miles and list price of $42,600. With federal and state incentives, net price will be at or near $35K.

2) 2020 Hyundai Kona EV - Range is 258 and list price is $37,190, before federal and state incentives. Net cost could be below $35K.

3) 2020 Chevy Bolt - Range is 259 miles and list price is $36,620, before federal and state incentives.

4) 2021 Ford Mach-E -Standard range is 230 (for rear wheel drive) and the list price is $42,895, before federal and state incentives.

Keep in mind that unless you have a super long commute, for a daily driver, the charging speed and range are not necessarily deal breakers. If you have a charger installed in your garage, your car will charge overnight and you will leave each morning with a full battery. If you had a regular ICE car with only a 230 mile range, but you also had a gas pump in your garage and you could fill up every morning and leave with a full tank, you may not be that worried about the lower range.
random_walker_77
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by random_walker_77 »

gerntz wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:50 pm I'd be happy to buy a small SUV EV if it has 500 miles range, fills up in 15 minutes, and costs around $35K. Are there any of those out there? Sedans/coupes are going the way of the dinosaur. Thanks.
I don't think any EV has a 500mi range yet. You might keep an eye out for the toyota rav4 prime. It's a plug-in hybrid, so you can recharge at home and get the first 40 mi of the day on electricity and then pretty good fuel efficiency for the miles after that. If you drive less than 40mi/day, you might go months before refueling. After the $7500 federal tax credit (and maybe state incentives where you live), it's in the 35K ballpark, but availability is very limited right now. Including the gas tank, its range is 600 miles, and of course you could quickly refuel at any gas station. The tradeoff is that you now have the mechanical complexity and maintenance associated with a gas engine & transmission, but it's a toyota so they've likely designed and tested it very conservatively for reliability and longevity. Given the short electric-only range, it'd be practical to charge it on 110V and forgo installing a 220V fast charger in your garage.
benderbr
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by benderbr »

gerntz wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:50 pm I'd be happy to buy a small SUV EV if it has 500 miles range, fills up in 15 minutes, and costs around $35K. Are there any of those out there? Sedans/coupes are going the way of the dinosaur. Thanks.
A 500 mile range EV isn't on the market because batteries are heavy and expensive. The truth is outside of a semi truck, 500 mile range is overkill. It can be built today, but it wouldn't sell well due to the added cost and weight. As battery technology improves, EV manufacturers are going to offer higher range for more money but also the same range (250-300) for reduced prices. The lower range vehicles will have the best prices and highest sales volume.

The reason is that very few people drive more than 100 miles a day. You need to shift your thinking to the realities of owning an EV. If an EV has 3x the range of your daily driving needs, you have absolutely nothing to worry about. You charge it every day, and it charges while you sleep, so every day you have a full battery with practically no effort and no waiting.

This means your first 2 requirements are really for road trips, which I loosely define as a 100+ mile one way drive. Tesla covers road trips with thousands of superchargers across the country. Most EV owners can count on one hand how often they have had to charge away from home each year. For me it's about once a year.

So once you shift your mindset to EV life, you realize that range and charge times are not as critical as many think at first. At that point you will find more than a handful of EVs in your price range.
joebruin77
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by joebruin77 »

And, in the words of Monty Python, now for something completely different....

There is a new EV company called Aptera. They are scheduled to release a new two-seat roadster. It has a super-efficient design that enables it to go 1,000 miles. And best of all, it has solar panels in the roof that will charge the batteries up to 45 miles per day. So if you live in a sunny climate, you could theoretically have an EV that never has to be plugged in.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3487 ... -revealed/

https://www.businessinsider.com/aptera- ... 0in%202021.
benderbr
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by benderbr »

joebruin77 wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:14 pm And, in the words of Monty Python, now for something completely different....

There is a new EV company called Aptera. They are scheduled to release a new two-seat roadster. It has a super-efficient design that enables it to go 1,000 miles. And best of all, it has solar panels in the roof that will charge the batteries up to 45 miles per day. So if you live in a sunny climate, you could theoretically have an EV that never has to be plugged in.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3487 ... -revealed/

https://www.businessinsider.com/aptera- ... 0in%202021.
Looks cool and 100wh per mile compared to Tesla Model3 at 250wh is impressive. I don't know how they would make something that small and light safe. I would still be interested as a fun toy though!
joebruin77
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by joebruin77 »

I had the same concerns about safety, but this is from the Aptera website:

"We will not know Aptera's actual rating until we pass a production vehicle through the full safety test. But we are designing to exceed all passenger car standards and the previous version had the highest roof crush strength of all passenger cars on the road, and it performed exceedingly well in actual side and frontal crash tests. Aptera features a Formula One-inspired safety cell with advanced composites and metal structures for impact strength. Similar to aerospace and racing, these energy-absorbing methods are a core part of our safety strategy and have proven effective time and time again in high speed impacts. Aptera also makes use of today’s best forward and side airbag systems in case of an accident."
lightheir
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by lightheir »

joebruin77 wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:14 pm And, in the words of Monty Python, now for something completely different....

There is a new EV company called Aptera. They are scheduled to release a new two-seat roadster. It has a super-efficient design that enables it to go 1,000 miles. And best of all, it has solar panels in the roof that will charge the batteries up to 45 miles per day. So if you live in a sunny climate, you could theoretically have an EV that never has to be plugged in.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3487 ... -revealed/

https://www.businessinsider.com/aptera- ... 0in%202021.
I'm gonna go ahead and call this vaporware right off the bat. I've been hearing of Aptera for 3 years, and nary anything to show for it.

Furthermore, if they are that ready to go, they should have had the foresight to get test models into the hands of well-known tech or auto youtubers like Marques Brownlee, etc. who would at least show that the product is 'real'. As is, the only vids online are of strictly controlled company videos. There are a lot of 'comment' videos, but they ALL use the stock footage provided by in the company teaser.

I'd be fine with this if they weren't proclaiming it ready-to-buy, but if that's the best foot you can put out for your product while take actual orders for it today, fuggetabout it.
gerntz
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by gerntz »

Thanks for the responses
bagle
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Re: Tesla [car] purchase any significant downside?

Post by bagle »

For those concerned that cost would be a downside, MIT just ran perhaps the most complete numbers. They concluded that the most Boglehead metric, total cost of ownership, is in line with a Nissan Altima. The Tesla (M3 SR+) cost less overall than a Camry.

Basically, lower maintenance and charging costs offset the $10k higher initial price. Not to mention 2/3 less CO2 emissions.

https://www.carboncounter.com/#!/explore

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... e=Homepage
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