Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

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tm3
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by tm3 »

EnjoyIt wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:18 pm I hope during that time either Tesla becomes the reliable car manufacturer it aims to be

I want Tesla to succeed. I want them to become more reliable. I want their batteries to last longer and cheaper to produce.

Luckily I do not need a new car today because I would prefer to allow Tesla more time to keep improving or another manufacturer to catch up and be better.
Well said. Perhaps unfortunately I'm in the market now, and the big strike against Tesla is the reliability. I don't know if I'll be able to rationalize my way around that hurdle, but given my recent horrible experience with Toyota (now irretrievably fallen from Mount Olympus) there is a chance.
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sk2101
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by sk2101 »

wrongfunds wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:35 pm I wish I could find the link but just imagine having to put little gas in your cellphone or having to pull a cord to start the tiny gasoline engine on your Cuisinart blender! There *really* are (were?) those tiny engines in RC flying hobby arena where one used tiny dropper to fill them up.
This was actually a thing back in the early 2000s when fuel cells were all the rave. I remember some prototypes of fuel cell powered phones, where one would need to fill up from time to time. Here is one story:

https://www.geek.com/mobile/motorola-an ... es-546797/
wrongfunds
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by wrongfunds »

Found it; Worth watching; it is only 1 minute long

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn__9hLJKAk
marcwd
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by marcwd »

Big Dog wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:22 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:11 pm
btenny wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:01 pm Do people who have two Teslas have two chargers in their garage? Does the house have to be updated with a special electric panel to support two Tesla home chargers?
We don’t have 2 Teslas (yet), but except in rare circumstances, I wouldn’t expect to have to charge daily, so I think my wife and I could just agree that she charges on odd days and I do so on even days.

We used our existing garage panel, but we have a lot of electricity (400A service) at our house. I guess whether or not you need an electric panel upgrade depends on your personal circumstances (ETA: service and desired charging amperage), but there isn’t a “special” one.
We also have two Teslas, and share the charger, as daily driving is short so no need to charge every day. To answer Benny's question more fully, one could always hook up to Tesla Wall Chargers in tandem and they will share one electrical line (preferably 240v), and charge one car at a time.

fwiw: our house only had a 100 amp box, so we had an electrician install a sub-panel and separate 60 amp line into the garage for EV charging. It's a simple job for any licensed electrician.
Level 2 charging current is no more than 40A. Electrician has already stated to me that, depending on other load requirements, 100A service can be entirely adequate.
TheCowbell
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by TheCowbell »

marcwd wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:03 pm
Big Dog wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:22 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:11 pm
btenny wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:01 pm Do people who have two Teslas have two chargers in their garage? Does the house have to be updated with a special electric panel to support two Tesla home chargers?
We don’t have 2 Teslas (yet), but except in rare circumstances, I wouldn’t expect to have to charge daily, so I think my wife and I could just agree that she charges on odd days and I do so on even days.

We used our existing garage panel, but we have a lot of electricity (400A service) at our house. I guess whether or not you need an electric panel upgrade depends on your personal circumstances (ETA: service and desired charging amperage), but there isn’t a “special” one.
We also have two Teslas, and share the charger, as daily driving is short so no need to charge every day. To answer Benny's question more fully, one could always hook up to Tesla Wall Chargers in tandem and they will share one electrical line (preferably 240v), and charge one car at a time.

fwiw: our house only had a 100 amp box, so we had an electrician install a sub-panel and separate 60 amp line into the garage for EV charging. It's a simple job for any licensed electrician.
Level 2 charging current is no more than 40A. Electrician has already stated to me that, depending on other load requirements, 100A service can be entirely adequate.
Not quite true, it depends on the car. My 3 uses a 60A circuit (48A continuous) and I believe you can get up to 80A in S/X.

Anyways, you can also dial down the amps as appropriate. A 20A 240v charge will fill you up nightly, it's just a question of whether you need faster charging which the vast majority wouldn't...
SpaghettiMonster
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by SpaghettiMonster »

TheCowbell wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:03 pm
SpaghettiMonster wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:55 pm I wonder how that works from the eyes of a criminal or a beggar. If you’re getting gas, I have about 2 minutes to hit you up for money. If you’re at a charger, I have 20-30 minutes to size you up and work you over.
You typically aren't standing at 'the nozzle' when at a supercharger, you're in your car watching a movie or running to a restroom, etc.

Also, I've visited a charger exactly twice in 18 months. Unless you're driving 300mi+ regularly, that'll be most people.
But is doesn’t have to be “you.” Whenever I pass by a Supercharger, there is “someone” there. In your car for 30 min? No problem, I can just hang out all day being shady. Going to the restaurant? I know that your car will be unattended for 30 min.
Big Dog
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by Big Dog »

marcwd wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:03 pm
Big Dog wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:22 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:11 pm
btenny wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:01 pm Do people who have two Teslas have two chargers in their garage? Does the house have to be updated with a special electric panel to support two Tesla home chargers?
We don’t have 2 Teslas (yet), but except in rare circumstances, I wouldn’t expect to have to charge daily, so I think my wife and I could just agree that she charges on odd days and I do so on even days.

We used our existing garage panel, but we have a lot of electricity (400A service) at our house. I guess whether or not you need an electric panel upgrade depends on your personal circumstances (ETA: service and desired charging amperage), but there isn’t a “special” one.
We also have two Teslas, and share the charger, as daily driving is short so no need to charge every day. To answer Benny's question more fully, one could always hook up to Tesla Wall Chargers in tandem and they will share one electrical line (preferably 240v), and charge one car at a time.

fwiw: our house only had a 100 amp box, so we had an electrician install a sub-panel and separate 60 amp line into the garage for EV charging. It's a simple job for any licensed electrician.
Level 2 charging current is no more than 40A. Electrician has already stated to me that, depending on other load requirements, 100A service can be entirely adequate.
The model 3-LR can charge up to 48 amps which requires a 60 amp circuit for max speed. (now, most folks don't need max charge speed overnight, but if the electrician is coming out to lay wire, might as well install a slightly thicker cable if possible, since the labor costs is fixed.)
TheCowbell
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by TheCowbell »

SpaghettiMonster wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:10 pm
TheCowbell wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:03 pm
SpaghettiMonster wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:55 pm I wonder how that works from the eyes of a criminal or a beggar. If you’re getting gas, I have about 2 minutes to hit you up for money. If you’re at a charger, I have 20-30 minutes to size you up and work you over.
You typically aren't standing at 'the nozzle' when at a supercharger, you're in your car watching a movie or running to a restroom, etc.

Also, I've visited a charger exactly twice in 18 months. Unless you're driving 300mi+ regularly, that'll be most people.
But is doesn’t have to be “you.” Whenever I pass by a Supercharger, there is “someone” there. In your car for 30 min? No problem, I can just hang out all day being shady. Going to the restaurant? I know that your car will be unattended for 30 min.
I can only speak for myself. I know plenty of people have unlimited SC so they may be taking advantage, or travelers. I'd wager it's a fraction of the number of people that visit gas pumps (1:1 EV:ice assumed of course) because mile for mile ice drivers *have* to go to the pump. I don't!

I am getting the impression you're reaching a little - wouldn't any restaurant parking lot have the same potential for nefarious activity?
harikaried
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by harikaried »

Big Dog wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:22 pm
marcwd wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:03 pmLevel 2 charging current is no more than 40A.
The model 3-LR can charge up to 48 amps which requires a 60 amp circuit for max speed.
I believe the confusion here is that the "dedicated" Tesla Wall Connector can charge up to 48A requiring 60A circuit (limited to 80% of max) while the original "generic" Mobile Connector using a regular 14-50 outlet on a 50A circuit can charge up to 40A (again limited to 80% of max). However, the Mobile Connector currently available is "gen 2" which additionally is designed to limit itself to 32A charging even on a 50A circuit.

We have a Gen 2 Mobile Connector plugged into a 14-50, so we charge about 30 miles per hour for our Model 3. The current plan is when we also have a Model Y, we'll just share the charger as each vehicle normally drives 30 miles each day anyway, and with both rated for 300+ miles, there isn't a need to "fully charge" every night.
marcwd
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by marcwd »

harikaried wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:43 pm
Big Dog wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:22 pm
marcwd wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:03 pmLevel 2 charging current is no more than 40A.
The model 3-LR can charge up to 48 amps which requires a 60 amp circuit for max speed.
I believe the confusion here is that the "dedicated" Tesla Wall Connector can charge up to 48A requiring 60A circuit (limited to 80% of max) while the original "generic" Mobile Connector using a regular 14-50 outlet on a 50A circuit can charge up to 40A (again limited to 80% of max). However, the Mobile Connector currently available is "gen 2" which additionally is designed to limit itself to 32A charging even on a 50A circuit.

We have a Gen 2 Mobile Connector plugged into a 14-50, so we charge about 30 miles per hour for our Model 3. The current plan is when we also have a Model Y, we'll just share the charger as each vehicle normally drives 30 miles each day anyway, and with both rated for 300+ miles, there isn't a need to "fully charge" every night.
My statement was incorrect. The Level 2 charging specified maximum is 19.2kW or 80A at 240V. Actual maximum charge current will be car and charger dependent.
UnclePennybags
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by UnclePennybags »

marcwd wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:08 pm
harikaried wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:43 pm
Big Dog wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:22 pm
marcwd wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:03 pmLevel 2 charging current is no more than 40A.
The model 3-LR can charge up to 48 amps which requires a 60 amp circuit for max speed.
I believe the confusion here is that the "dedicated" Tesla Wall Connector can charge up to 48A requiring 60A circuit (limited to 80% of max) while the original "generic" Mobile Connector using a regular 14-50 outlet on a 50A circuit can charge up to 40A (again limited to 80% of max). However, the Mobile Connector currently available is "gen 2" which additionally is designed to limit itself to 32A charging even on a 50A circuit.

We have a Gen 2 Mobile Connector plugged into a 14-50, so we charge about 30 miles per hour for our Model 3. The current plan is when we also have a Model Y, we'll just share the charger as each vehicle normally drives 30 miles each day anyway, and with both rated for 300+ miles, there isn't a need to "fully charge" every night.
My statement was incorrect. The Level 2 charging specified maximum is 19.2kW or 80A at 240V. Actual maximum charge current will be car and charger dependent.
I have an 80A wall charger which required a 100A circuit and "dual chargers" as an option on my model S. I believe it is relatively uncommon to find dual chargers on the Model S/X and impossible to do on the Model 3. To further complicate matters, Level 2 charging is only limited to 19.2kw when using AC power. DC based level 2 chargers are capable of 90kw (up to 200a at from 200-450v). However, I think this is a mostly theoretical discussion, since I've never actually encountered a level 2 charger in the real world that delivered that kind of current, even with the CHAdeMO adapter that I never should have bought.
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investor997
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by investor997 »

wrongfunds wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:35 pm I wish I could find the link but just imagine having to put little gas in your cellphone or having to pull a cord to start the tiny gasoline engine on your Cuisinart blender! There *really* are (were?) those tiny engines in RC flying hobby arena where one used tiny dropper to fill them up.
Gas powered blenders are an actual thing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmzgmOv0qoM

A friend of mine had one and it was a riot to use out on the Sandbar just upstream of Lake Havasu!
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investor997
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by investor997 »

harikaried wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:43 pm
Big Dog wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:22 pm
marcwd wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:03 pmLevel 2 charging current is no more than 40A.
The model 3-LR can charge up to 48 amps which requires a 60 amp circuit for max speed.
I believe the confusion here is that the "dedicated" Tesla Wall Connector can charge up to 48A requiring 60A circuit (limited to 80% of max) while the original "generic" Mobile Connector using a regular 14-50 outlet on a 50A circuit can charge up to 40A (again limited to 80% of max). However, the Mobile Connector currently available is "gen 2" which additionally is designed to limit itself to 32A charging even on a 50A circuit.

We have a Gen 2 Mobile Connector plugged into a 14-50, so we charge about 30 miles per hour for our Model 3. The current plan is when we also have a Model Y, we'll just share the charger as each vehicle normally drives 30 miles each day anyway, and with both rated for 300+ miles, there isn't a need to "fully charge" every night.
Nothing wrong with this approach.

BTW, Tesla Wall Connectors can be connected together via RS-485 data link and can be made to intelligently share a single circuit. For example, you could put two TWCs on a single 60A breaker. If only one car is charging then it will take all 48A available. If the second car gets plugged in, the two chargers will drop the current down to 24A apiece.

There's also a brand spanking new TWC available with built-in Wi-Fi but I'm not sure if it can daisy chain like the older one.
researcher
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by researcher »

I just came across this article comparing the range of the the Porsche Taycan vs. Tesla Model S...
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a3 ... a-model-s/

Some interesting findings related to the Model 3...
- The first Model 3, a rear-drive Long Range, got 200 miles versus its 310-mile EPA figure at the time.
- That means at a steady 75 mph, the 100D achieved 81 percent of its EPA range, and the Model 3, 65 percent, while the figure for this latest Model S is 68 percent.
- Of course, total range figures for electrics are always slightly fuzzy because an EV can't run at highway speed all the way down to a zero state of charge. Along the way, it will go into a limp mode and limit speed in an attempt to delay your point of strandedness.


So if you plan to take your Model 3 on a road trip, you will get less than two-thirds of the claimed range!!!
According to Car & Driver testing, that 310-mile range will only get you ~170 miles in the real world.
harikaried
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by harikaried »

Anyone know what Consumer Reports is talking about for "Long Range mode" for a Model 3?

Tesla Ups Ante on Model Y Range, Underscoring Its EV Lead: Tesla is facing increasing competition, but its batteries and superior energy efficiency give it an edge
https://www.consumerreports.org/hybrids ... g-ev-lead/
At CR, we’ve found that our range testing has matched the EPA’s testing within single-digit percentage points. Our tested Tesla Model 3 matched the 310 mile range the EPA had pegged it at, and in Long Range mode we achieved 350 miles.
There is a "Long Range" Model 3, but that's currently rated 322 miles. And I believe the Model S has a "Range Mode" to turn off the battery heater, but the currently rated 390 miles is without that setting.
rj342
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by rj342 »

I would never have a pure EV as my only car here in hurricane country on the Gulf Coast (or anywhere else w similar local grid down possibilities).
pennylane
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by pennylane »

Buy it. 16k miles into it, never had to visit the dealership once.
TheCowbell
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by TheCowbell »

22k miles, not a single issue.

No idea what long range mode is. No such setting in the 3 that I'm aware of.
marcwd
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by marcwd »

pennylane wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:17 pm Buy it. 16k miles into it, never had to visit the dealership once.
I’d expect that with any new car at 16k miles.
pennylane
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by pennylane »

marcwd wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:27 pm
pennylane wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:17 pm Buy it. 16k miles into it, never had to visit the dealership once.
I’d expect that with any new car at 16k miles.
New cars need an oil change at 5K - 1st visit

10k service - 2nd visit

20k service

Assuming nothing comes up within 15k miles
marcwd
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by marcwd »

pennylane wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:11 pm
marcwd wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:27 pm
pennylane wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:17 pm Buy it. 16k miles into it, never had to visit the dealership once.
I’d expect that with any new car at 16k miles.
New cars need an oil change at 5K - 1st visit

10k service - 2nd visit

20k service

Assuming nothing comes up within 15k miles
Ok, fair enough. I was referring to unanticipated repair issues.
Bruse213
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by Bruse213 »

TheCowbell wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:24 pm 22k miles, not a single issue.

No idea what long range mode is. No such setting in the 3 that I'm aware of.
I believe long range mode is in the Model S and maybe the X. Similar to hitting the “economy” button in a normal car it puts the acceleration into chill mode, etc. The model 3 doesn’t have long range mode.
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investor997
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by investor997 »

OP here. Thought I'd post another update. It's been ~26 months since I bought my Model 3.

Miles have been accumulating more slowly over the past year due to the pandemic but I do get the car out on the road on occasion. Some points worth mentioning:

The rear tires wear out more quickly than the fronts (lots of torque!). It's important to rotate them regularly.

The regularly-scheduled software updates still keep coming, though the novelty of farting sounds and video games have worn off. They recently rolled out an update that reconfigured the GUI on the display, mainly to make more room for the Full Self Driving visualizations. Since my car doesn't have that option and since I don't plan on purchasing it, I don't view this particular update as a positive.

I had an issue a couple months ago; Warnings appeared on the screen about reduced power. I scheduled an appointment (via the app) at a nearby service center. They replaced the high voltage battery charging contactors under warranty. It's been the only technical glitch thus far. The service center experience was positive. They paid for my Uber ride to and from (which, admittedly, was a little weird for me as it was the first time I used Uber during the pandemic).

I noted last year that the battery degraded a bit over the first year (factory rated range = 310mi, current 100% charge = 290mi). The good news is the degradation seems to have stopped. The 100% range I get today is about the same as it was a year ago.

Back when I bought the car, Tesla ran a referral bonus promotion that awarded a free, 1-week rental of a Model S or Model X to anyone who referred three buyers. Well, it took nearly two years but Tesla finally made good on that promise and I was able to borrow a brand new Model S Performance (with Ludicrous mode). I put 1K miles on it. It gave me a good opportunity to compare my lowly Model 3 to Tesla's flagship. I'm biased, but I prefer the way the lighter/more nimble Model 3 drives and handles compared to the S. You can also tell that the S was an older design; there are some significant differences in the primary controls, but I will say the Model S is a better road trip car. It's more spacious, it's quieter (more insulation) and it has a LOT more range; 350 miles @ 90%.

All in all, I'm extremely satisfied with the car. I still get excited every time I get behind the wheel, and my S.O.'s 2018 Audi Q5 still feels archaic by comparison.
DNK
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by DNK »

It's great to see this thread develop for long term ownership feedback. Especially this quote:
investor997 wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:04 pm All in all, I'm extremely satisfied with the car. I still get excited every time I get behind the wheel, and my S.O.'s 2018 Audi Q5 still feels archaic by comparison.
I am looking forward to the purchase in a few years. :D

Keep the posts "periodically" coming!
tdmp
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by tdmp »

investor997 wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:04 pm OP here. Thought I'd post another update. It's been ~26 months since I bought my Model 3.

Miles have been accumulating more slowly over the past year due to the pandemic but I do get the car out on the road on occasion. Some points worth mentioning:

The rear tires wear out more quickly than the fronts (lots of torque!). It's important to rotate them regularly.


How many miles do you have on the car? And have you had to change the tires yet?
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investor997
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by investor997 »

tdmp wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:47 pm How many miles do you have on the car? And have you had to change the tires yet?
About 19K. Still on original tires. If hadn't rotated them, the rears would have worn much more quickly than the fronts and they'd be at the wear bars by now.
TheCowbell
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by TheCowbell »

tdmp wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:47 pm
investor997 wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:04 pm OP here. Thought I'd post another update. It's been ~26 months since I bought my Model 3.

Miles have been accumulating more slowly over the past year due to the pandemic but I do get the car out on the road on occasion. Some points worth mentioning:

The rear tires wear out more quickly than the fronts (lots of torque!). It's important to rotate them regularly.


How many miles do you have on the car? And have you had to change the tires yet?
I had to get new tires after 11k miles.

But, I had a big grin on my face that whole 11k. No regrets. Second set is lasting much longer as I've calmed down somewhat.
benderbr
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by benderbr »

TheCowbell wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:42 am
I had to get new tires after 11k miles.

But, I had a big grin on my face that whole 11k. No regrets. Second set is lasting much longer as I've calmed down somewhat.
Wow - performance model? We should have a 'tire saving mode' that moderates the acceleration from a stop.
tm3
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by tm3 »

Nice update. Thanks!
TheCowbell
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by TheCowbell »

benderbr wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:54 am
TheCowbell wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:42 am
I had to get new tires after 11k miles.

But, I had a big grin on my face that whole 11k. No regrets. Second set is lasting much longer as I've calmed down somewhat.
Wow - performance model? We should have a 'tire saving mode' that moderates the acceleration from a stop.
No, LR AWD. There is that mode, it's 'chill-mode' in driver settings.

It's funny, I have the 'non-performance' model that does 0-60 in a hair over 4 seconds. I didn't get the P because I was afraid I'd kill myself.

At low speeds the P & non-P have similar torque off the line, and what really kills you are the launches (it's hard not to in those first few K miles) and even more so when you take turns aggressively. The stock tires were quite sticky and with the heavy but extremely low center of gravity of these cars it's a surreal experience taking a bend at speed. Do that a couple hundred times and it's time for new tires!
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investor997
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by investor997 »

TheCowbell wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:33 amAt low speeds the P & non-P have similar torque off the line
It's actually the opposite of that. The Performance models are WAY faster off the line than the non-P LR AWD. The P models provide max torque from a standstill but Tesla limits the torque output of the non-P. The torque curves start to equal each other as speeds rise. The P model won't pull away as fast when punching it from highway speeds.

Us non-P LR AWD owners can pay $2,000 for the Speed Boost in the app any time we want. That bridges the gap.

Here's a pretty good dyno chart comparison showing non-P, non-P + Speed Boost and P:
https://imgur.com/a/s87VuMS#HXvhWVx
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