[AT/Austria] clarification on ETF taxes

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casually average
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri May 22, 2020 6:07 am

Re: [AT/Austria] clarification on ETF taxes

Post by casually average »

ellaellela wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:52 pm
casually average wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:57 am 1) Date of the annual reporting of a fund with reporting status in Austria:
[*]it has to be 7 months after the fiscal year end of the fund at the latest
[*]the exact date differs, because it depends when the tax representativ reports the annual tax data to the OeKB
[*]best practice: check the reporting date of the fund in previous years on www.profitweb.at ("KESt Meldefonds/Steuerdaten zu Fonds") and transfer some money to your flatex account in advance.
[*]IE00BK5BQT80 is new and has not had an annual reporting yet. You can either transfer some money 3 months after fiscal year end to be safe or just transfer it after flatex charged you with the tax.

2) you will be charged with the tax if you hold the shares of the fund on the date that the annual tax data is reported to the OeKB
[*] don't worry about this one. it's doesn't really matter on the long run.
[*] if you invest only once a year (larger sum) it's better to invest AFTER the annual tax data has been reported to the OeKB so you have less tax to pay for, just from a tax point of view, yes.
[*]correct, the 2019 performance is the basis for 2020 tax on distribution/deemed distributed income. As mentioned above, it matters if you hold the assets on the date of reporting.
Thank you for the detailed reply. Just to be sure if I understood correctly, could we take a look at https://www.justetf.com/en/etf-profile. ... 00B3RBWM25 for example which has been in existence for several years? Its reporting date is the same: 30th of June. And on OeKB - Profitweb there is the following info:

Image

If we just concentrate on the last year: if someone bought the shares on 05/06.12.2019 the person would pay the full taxes for the period 01.07.2018 - 30.06.2019? But if the person sold those shares before the next report-date, he would not pay this tax again (but he would pay the capital gains tax) even though he owned the shares during that fond's fiscal year?
And how do they determine the taxes to be paid if the number of shares was varying during this period?

And a question on flatex: do I always need to transfer the money manually or they can just charge my "normal" bank account used during the registration process?

Thank you!
[*]The FYE is 30th June and usually stays the same. As we can see the reporting date is similar but different every year.

[*]That’s correct, if you buy the shares on 5.12.2019 you must pay taxes on 6.12.2019 (reporting date). Example: The fund has earning of 10€ per share in the period 1.7.2018 – 30.6.2019. Accumulating fund: On the reporting date, you are charged with 2,75€ per share but there is no cash flow. The price of the fund is not affected since all the money stays in the fund. Distributing fund: You receive 10 – 2,75 = 7,25€ net distribution per share. The price per share (net asset value) of the fund is reduced by -10 per share since this is the amount of cash that goes out of the fund. In both cases you must pay 2,75€ taxes per share, the only difference is the cash flow. In both cases you “receive” money earned by the fund in the period of 1.7.2018 – 30.6.2019. This seems unfair at a glance, but this is solved through income equalization within the fund (a certain amount of the price that the investors pay for their new shares is booked as earning of the fund, therefore the earning per share stay the same).

[*]That’s correct. We need to understand that the tax you pay on deemed distributed income, increases your acquisition cost. So, when you sell it, you pay less taxes on capital gains. In the end it is just a timing difference, unless you sell with losses.

The good thing is that you do not have to worry about this. The Austrian bank/broker does it correctly for you. Therefore, I wouldn’t recommend using any Non-Austrian bank/broker (DeGiro), especially for investmentfunds.

[*]The amount of shares the investor owns at the reporting date (6.12.2019) is relevant.

[*]Flatex: You can charge your external bank account with a monthly savings plan up to 1000€. I don’t think you can charge your external bank account automatically if the Flatex cash deposit is negative or below a certain threshold. Could you maybe ask the Flatex support and let us know, because this would be very convenient?

Great questions, hope this is helpful!
"What‘s the intellectual basis for indexing? Gross return minus costs equals net return. Period. What‘s the intellectual basis for active management? I‘ve never heard one." - John C. Bogle
Topic Author
ellaellela
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Location: Austria

Re: [AT/Austria] clarification on ETF taxes

Post by ellaellela »

casually average wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:05 am [*]Flatex: You can charge your external bank account with a monthly savings plan up to 1000€. I don’t think you can charge your external bank account automatically if the Flatex cash deposit is negative or below a certain threshold. Could you maybe ask the Flatex support and let us know, because this would be very convenient?

Great questions, hope this is helpful!
Yes, it is helpful, thank you for the answers.

No, there is no mechanism by which flatex will automatically keep your balance above 0. Maybe if I asked in German, I would have gotten a longer answer.

A bit unexpected thing happened to me when my first savings plan was executed. Let us assume I have opted for 1000 euros to invest. They first took the fees, and then bought the shares with the remainder that was left after they deducted the fees from the 1000. I have thought they would buy 1000 worth of shares and then put my balance into negative by the amount of the fees.
I think around September I will see first-handed what happens with the dividend taxation.
WienerG
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Re: [AT/Austria] clarification on ETF taxes

Post by WienerG »

Flatex just informed me that the vanguard FTSE all world accumulating ETF (VWCE) is not a recognized meldefond in Austria (contrary to the statement on the ÖKB (Profitweb) website. This means that I have to file details manually with the BMF! Anyone had this happen to them? I would not have used flatex if I had known they're not going to carry out the tax reporting. I have no idea how to get details of the reinvested accumulation or how to calculate this for the BMF!?

Any input gratefully received!

WienerG
casually average
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri May 22, 2020 6:07 am

Re: [AT/Austria] clarification on ETF taxes

Post by casually average »

WienerG wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:50 am Flatex just informed me that the vanguard FTSE all world accumulating ETF (VWCE) is not a recognized meldefond in Austria (contrary to the statement on the ÖKB (Profitweb) website. This means that I have to file details manually with the BMF! Anyone had this happen to them? I would not have used flatex if I had known they're not going to carry out the tax reporting. I have no idea how to get details of the reinvested accumulation or how to calculate this for the BMF!?

Any input gratefully received!

WienerG
Hi!

IE00BK5BQT80 was listed 23 July 2019. The fund's FYE is 30 June and therefore has not had an annual reporting yet. However, they have registered with the OeKB and an declared their intent to report their tax data ("Absichtserklärung"). Technically IE00BK5BQT80 already is a reporting fund and there should be no problems for us investing in it.

Maybe there was a misunderstanding? If you provide me with more context maybe I can help you clarify.
"What‘s the intellectual basis for indexing? Gross return minus costs equals net return. Period. What‘s the intellectual basis for active management? I‘ve never heard one." - John C. Bogle
WienerG
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Re: [AT/Austria] clarification on ETF taxes

Post by WienerG »

casually average wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:57 am
WienerG wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:50 am Flatex just informed me that the vanguard FTSE all world accumulating ETF (VWCE) is not a recognized meldefond in Austria (contrary to the statement on the ÖKB (Profitweb) website. This means that I have to file details manually with the BMF! Anyone had this happen to them? I would not have used flatex if I had known they're not going to carry out the tax reporting. I have no idea how to get details of the reinvested accumulation or how to calculate this for the BMF!?

Any input gratefully received!

WienerG
Hi!

IE00BK5BQT80 was listed 23 July 2019. The fund's FYE is 30 June and therefore has not had an annual reporting yet. However, they have registered with the OeKB and an declared their intent to report their tax data ("Absichtserklärung"). Technically IE00BK5BQT80 already is a reporting fund and there should be no problems for us investing in it.

Maybe there was a misunderstanding? If you provide me with more context maybe I can help you clarify.
Hi! And thanks for for reaching out. I am not sure if you speak German or not but the answer I got is here in German (I hope this doesn't break any etiquette rules on this board!)

Der ETF IE00BK5BQT80 hat seit 08/2019 die Absichtserklärung abgegeben Meldefonds zu werden. Aktuell ist dies leider noch nicht der Fall, weshalt er als intransparenter Fonds gilt.

Ein intransparenter Fonds ist kein Meldefonds nach österreichischem Recht. Das heisst uns werden keine Daten bzgl. Erträgen und deren Besteuerung übermittelt. Hierzu müssten Sie selber tätig werden.

They are saying that the fund registered as bona fide fund (intention) but is not yet fully registered, hence they do not receive income details & therefore I have to take care of this myself.

Happy to discuss further (also via PM).

Thanks
WienerG
Topic Author
ellaellela
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Location: Austria

Re: [AT/Austria] clarification on ETF taxes

Post by ellaellela »

WienerG wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:42 am
casually average wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:57 am
WienerG wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:50 am Flatex just informed me that the vanguard FTSE all world accumulating ETF (VWCE) is not a recognized meldefond in Austria (contrary to the statement on the ÖKB (Profitweb) website. This means that I have to file details manually with the BMF! Anyone had this happen to them? I would not have used flatex if I had known they're not going to carry out the tax reporting. I have no idea how to get details of the reinvested accumulation or how to calculate this for the BMF!?

Any input gratefully received!

WienerG
Hi!

IE00BK5BQT80 was listed 23 July 2019. The fund's FYE is 30 June and therefore has not had an annual reporting yet. However, they have registered with the OeKB and an declared their intent to report their tax data ("Absichtserklärung"). Technically IE00BK5BQT80 already is a reporting fund and there should be no problems for us investing in it.

Maybe there was a misunderstanding? If you provide me with more context maybe I can help you clarify.
Hi! And thanks for for reaching out. I am not sure if you speak German or not but the answer I got is here in German (I hope this doesn't break any etiquette rules on this board!)

Der ETF IE00BK5BQT80 hat seit 08/2019 die Absichtserklärung abgegeben Meldefonds zu werden. Aktuell ist dies leider noch nicht der Fall, weshalt er als intransparenter Fonds gilt.

Ein intransparenter Fonds ist kein Meldefonds nach österreichischem Recht. Das heisst uns werden keine Daten bzgl. Erträgen und deren Besteuerung übermittelt. Hierzu müssten Sie selber tätig werden.

They are saying that the fund registered as bona fide fund (intention) but is not yet fully registered, hence they do not receive income details & therefore I have to take care of this myself.

Happy to discuss further (also via PM).

Thanks
WienerG
Hi,

rather unusual, I also bought that ETF at flatex just to avoid the tax hassle >.<

The profitweb.at has the following for listed:

ISIN IE00BK5BQT80
Name der Anteilsgattung des Fonds Vanguard FTSE All-World UCITS ETF - (USD) Accumulating
Verwaltungsgesellschaft Vanguard Funds plc
Fondsstatus A
Geschäftsjahresende 30.06.
KESt Meldefonds seit 05.08.2019 Absichtserklärung

So, I am not sure what they intend to do with this "Absichtserklärung", hopefully they will make it for this year - I believe that they might be late as usual. However, don't take my opinion as a rule. When have you bought this ETF? I haven't received any word from flatex yet and I first got it this year's June.
casually average
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Re: [AT/Austria] clarification on ETF taxes

Post by casually average »

Relax - they will carry out the reporting. Deadline is 7 months after the fund’s FYE which is 30.06. So there is still plenty of time until 31.01.
"What‘s the intellectual basis for indexing? Gross return minus costs equals net return. Period. What‘s the intellectual basis for active management? I‘ve never heard one." - John C. Bogle
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alpine_boglehead
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Re: [AT/Austria] clarification on ETF taxes

Post by alpine_boglehead »

casually average wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:41 pm Relax - they will carry out the reporting. Deadline is 7 months after the fund’s FYE which is 30.06. So there is still plenty of time until 31.01.
I'd expect it to come in at the same date as the distributing version (they are share classes of the same fund), which has had dates in December and January (e.g. 6th of December last year). I'm also a bit anxious to have this reported properly, though.
WienerG
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Re: [AT/Austria] clarification on ETF taxes

Post by WienerG »

alpine_boglehead wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:48 am
casually average wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:41 pm Relax - they will carry out the reporting. Deadline is 7 months after the fund’s FYE which is 30.06. So there is still plenty of time until 31.01.
I'd expect it to come in at the same date as the distributing version (they are share classes of the same fund), which has had dates in December and January (e.g. 6th of December last year). I'm also a bit anxious to have this reported properly, though.
Just checked the ÖKB website (profitweb.at) and the Vangaurd FTSE all share UCITS acc seems to be registered as active now. Looks like they will be filing on time as casually average suggested above!

Happy holidays to all!

WienerG
Tylenol Jones
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Re: [AT/Austria] clarification on ETF taxes

Post by Tylenol Jones »

Few questions someone can hopefully clarify:

When is the capital gains tax charged in Austria? In the year when the gains are realized, right? For example, you hold an ETF for 10 years with 100% gain and you sell, you pay that year 27.5% of your profit and nothing in the years you hold the ETF?

Is it possible to offset gains with losses? If yes, can you carry forward the losses or it's only losses offsetting the gains in the same year?

Does Austria have an estate tax treaty with US?
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alpine_boglehead
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Re: [AT/Austria] clarification on ETF taxes

Post by alpine_boglehead »

Tylenol Jones wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:49 am Few questions someone can hopefully clarify:

When is the capital gains tax charged in Austria? In the year when the gains are realized, right? For example, you hold an ETF for 10 years with 100% gain and you sell, you pay that year 27.5% of your profit and nothing in the years you hold the ETF?
Yes, in the year you sell. However, capital gains realized within the fund itself (e.g. by selling appreciated shares) are "distributed" each year (called Besteuerung von Substanzgewinnen). This should be very little for low-turnover ETFs, but I've held high-turnover actively managed funds in the past that caused taxes worth several percent of the value this way.
Tylenol Jones wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:49 am Is it possible to offset gains with losses? If yes, can you carry forward the losses or it's only losses offsetting the gains in the same year?
Yes, you can offset gains with losses from other investments. Within the same broker (if it's an Austria domiciled one that does taxes for you) that's done automatically, for offsetting gains with one broker with losses with another you have to file this in your income tax declaration (the mechanism is called Verlustausgleich). It's not possible to offset regular income with capital losses. And you can't carry it forward, it only works within the same calendar year.
Tylenol Jones wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:49 am Does Austria have an estate tax treaty with US?
Don't know, try googling it, hopefully someone else can chime in.
TedSwippet
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Re: [AT/Austria] clarification on ETF taxes

Post by TedSwippet »

Tylenol Jones wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:49 am Does Austria have an estate tax treaty with US?
Yes. Though I'm unsure why you're asking, assuming the discussion here is still related to a Vanguard Ireland domiciled UCITS ETF.

https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-bu ... ernational
Tylenol Jones
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Re: [AT/Austria] clarification on ETF taxes

Post by Tylenol Jones »

Thanks for the detailed response!
alpine_boglehead wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:43 am
Tylenol Jones wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:49 am Few questions someone can hopefully clarify:

When is the capital gains tax charged in Austria? In the year when the gains are realized, right? For example, you hold an ETF for 10 years with 100% gain and you sell, you pay that year 27.5% of your profit and nothing in the years you hold the ETF?
Yes, in the year you sell. However, capital gains realized within the fund itself (e.g. by selling appreciated shares) are "distributed" each year (called Besteuerung von Substanzgewinnen). This should be very little for low-turnover ETFs, but I've held high-turnover actively managed funds in the past that caused taxes worth several percent of the value this way.
Tylenol Jones wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:49 am Is it possible to offset gains with losses? If yes, can you carry forward the losses or it's only losses offsetting the gains in the same year?
Yes, you can offset gains with losses from other investments. Within the same broker (if it's an Austria domiciled one that does taxes for you) that's done automatically, for offsetting gains with one broker with losses with another you have to file this in your income tax declaration (the mechanism is called Verlustausgleich). It's not possible to offset regular income with capital losses. And you can't carry it forward, it only works within the same calendar year.
Tylenol Jones wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:49 am Does Austria have an estate tax treaty with US?
Don't know, try googling it, hopefully someone else can chime in.
Tylenol Jones
Posts: 300
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2009 6:54 am

Re: [AT/Austria] clarification on ETF taxes

Post by Tylenol Jones »

TedSwippet wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:04 pm
Tylenol Jones wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:49 am Does Austria have an estate tax treaty with US?
Yes. Though I'm unsure why you're asking, assuming the discussion here is still related to a Vanguard Ireland domiciled UCITS ETF.

https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-bu ... ernational
Thanks, I checked it and there is no indication if it is increasing that 60K standard estate tax exemption for non-US residents.
TedSwippet
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Re: [AT/Austria] clarification on ETF taxes

Post by TedSwippet »

Tylenol Jones wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:43 am
TedSwippet wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:04 pm
Tylenol Jones wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:49 am Does Austria have an estate tax treaty with US?
Yes. Though I'm unsure why you're asking, assuming the discussion here is still related to a Vanguard Ireland domiciled UCITS ETF.

https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-bu ... ernational
Thanks, I checked it and there is no indication if it is increasing that 60K standard estate tax exemption for non-US residents.
I have been unable to find a copy of the treaty itself. Can you point me to one?

Meanwhile, while I know nothing about the US/Austria estate tax treaty -- apart from the fact that there is one -- I found this. By restricting application of the US estate tax to only 'real property' and 'business property', it appears to provide protection for any US domiciled ETFs and US shares:

U.S. Estate Planning for Nonresident Aliens from Treaty Countries
Assets Subject to U.S. Estate and Gift Tax under the Treaties
Under the Austrian Treaty and U.K. Treaty, immovable property (referred to as “real property” in the Austrian Treaty) situated in the United States and owned by an alien domiciliary of either of these countries and business property of a permanent establishment situated in the United States and owned by an alien domiciliary of either of these countries may be subjected to U.S. estate and gift tax. Generally, any other property of an alien domiciliary of Austria or the U.K., including cash, tangible personal property and debt obligations situated in the United States and shares of stock in U.S. corporations and, perhaps, also including an interest in a partnership that owns U.S. real estate or business property of a permanent establishment (discussed in greater detail below), may only be taxed by Austria or the U.K., as the case may be.
Page 28 of this paper says much the same thing:

United States Estate and Gift Tax - An Overview for Foreigners Investing in the United States
Tylenol Jones
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Re: [AT/Austria] clarification on ETF taxes

Post by Tylenol Jones »

Thanks for the further clarification. Here is the treaty text https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-trty/austria.pdf
TedSwippet wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:14 am
Tylenol Jones wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:43 am
TedSwippet wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:04 pm
Tylenol Jones wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:49 am Does Austria have an estate tax treaty with US?
Yes. Though I'm unsure why you're asking, assuming the discussion here is still related to a Vanguard Ireland domiciled UCITS ETF.

https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-bu ... ernational
Thanks, I checked it and there is no indication if it is increasing that 60K standard estate tax exemption for non-US residents.
I have been unable to find a copy of the treaty itself. Can you point me to one?

Meanwhile, while I know nothing about the US/Austria estate tax treaty -- apart from the fact that there is one -- I found this. By restricting application of the US estate tax to only 'real property' and 'business property', it appears to provide protection for any US domiciled ETFs and US shares:

U.S. Estate Planning for Nonresident Aliens from Treaty Countries
Assets Subject to U.S. Estate and Gift Tax under the Treaties
Under the Austrian Treaty and U.K. Treaty, immovable property (referred to as “real property” in the Austrian Treaty) situated in the United States and owned by an alien domiciliary of either of these countries and business property of a permanent establishment situated in the United States and owned by an alien domiciliary of either of these countries may be subjected to U.S. estate and gift tax. Generally, any other property of an alien domiciliary of Austria or the U.K., including cash, tangible personal property and debt obligations situated in the United States and shares of stock in U.S. corporations and, perhaps, also including an interest in a partnership that owns U.S. real estate or business property of a permanent establishment (discussed in greater detail below), may only be taxed by Austria or the U.K., as the case may be.
Page 28 of this paper says much the same thing:

United States Estate and Gift Tax - An Overview for Foreigners Investing in the United States
TedSwippet
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Re: [AT/Austria] clarification on ETF taxes

Post by TedSwippet »

Tylenol Jones wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:09 am Thanks for the further clarification. Here is the treaty text https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-trty/austria.pdf
Thanks, but ... that is the text of the US/Austria income tax treaty. See Article 2 for the scope of taxes covered by it.

The US/Austria estate tax treaty should be a completely different and separate document. US estate tax treaties are often very hard to locate, not least because most of them predate the Internet, if not actual computers, often by a considerable number of decades.
Tylenol Jones
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Re: [AT/Austria] clarification on ETF taxes

Post by Tylenol Jones »

I see, that's the only one I managed to find. I guess that's why I didn't find info in it :-). I'll try to find the estate tax treaty when I have some more free time. Thanks.
TedSwippet wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:21 am
Tylenol Jones wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:09 am Thanks for the further clarification. Here is the treaty text https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-trty/austria.pdf
Thanks, but ... that is the text of the US/Austria income tax treaty. See Article 2 for the scope of taxes covered by it.

The US/Austria estate tax treaty should be a completely different and separate document. US estate tax treaties are often very hard to locate, not least because most of them predate the Internet, if not actual computers, often by a considerable number of decades.
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alpine_boglehead
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Re: [AT/Austria] clarification on ETF taxes

Post by alpine_boglehead »

ellaellela wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:07 am
The profitweb.at has the following for listed:

ISIN IE00BK5BQT80
Name der Anteilsgattung des Fonds Vanguard FTSE All-World UCITS ETF - (USD) Accumulating
Verwaltungsgesellschaft Vanguard Funds plc
Fondsstatus A
Geschäftsjahresende 30.06.
KESt Meldefonds seit 05.08.2019 Absichtserklärung

So, I am not sure what they intend to do with this "Absichtserklärung", hopefully they will make it for this year - I believe that they might be late as usual. However, don't take my opinion as a rule. When have you bought this ETF? I haven't received any word from flatex yet and I first got it this year's June.
It seems the actual tax declaration was published today, check out https://my.oekb.at/kapitalmarkt-service ... 00BK5BQT80
WienerG
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Re: [AT/Austria] clarification on ETF taxes

Post by WienerG »

alpine_boglehead wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:43 am
ellaellela wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:07 am
The profitweb.at has the following for listed:

ISIN IE00BK5BQT80
Name der Anteilsgattung des Fonds Vanguard FTSE All-World UCITS ETF - (USD) Accumulating
Verwaltungsgesellschaft Vanguard Funds plc
Fondsstatus A
Geschäftsjahresende 30.06.
KESt Meldefonds seit 05.08.2019 Absichtserklärung

So, I am not sure what they intend to do with this "Absichtserklärung", hopefully they will make it for this year - I believe that they might be late as usual. However, don't take my opinion as a rule. When have you bought this ETF? I haven't received any word from flatex yet and I first got it this year's June.
It seems the actual tax declaration was published today, check out https://my.oekb.at/kapitalmarkt-service ... 00BK5BQT80
Yeah Flatex booked the tax on my act today.
WienerG
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alpine_boglehead
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Re: [AT/Austria] clarification on ETF taxes

Post by alpine_boglehead »

WienerG wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:25 am
alpine_boglehead wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:43 am
ellaellela wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:07 am
The profitweb.at has the following for listed:

ISIN IE00BK5BQT80
Name der Anteilsgattung des Fonds Vanguard FTSE All-World UCITS ETF - (USD) Accumulating
Verwaltungsgesellschaft Vanguard Funds plc
Fondsstatus A
Geschäftsjahresende 30.06.
KESt Meldefonds seit 05.08.2019 Absichtserklärung

So, I am not sure what they intend to do with this "Absichtserklärung", hopefully they will make it for this year - I believe that they might be late as usual. However, don't take my opinion as a rule. When have you bought this ETF? I haven't received any word from flatex yet and I first got it this year's June.
It seems the actual tax declaration was published today, check out https://my.oekb.at/kapitalmarkt-service ... 00BK5BQT80
Yeah Flatex booked the tax on my act today.
WienerG
Can you confirm whether the "Anschaffungskosten" (cost basis) were also corrected?

It says - "Die Anschaffungskosten des Fondsanteils sind zu korrigieren um 0,8897" - the cost basis (purchase price) per share should now be 0.8897 higher than before (because you've already been taxed now on part of the money which you now hold in the fund).

My broker dadat seems to have missed that. I'll inquire with them.

As for the tax, it also arrived today for dadat. The tax was €0.14 per share, so it seems the calculation is ("Ausschüttungsgleiche Erträge" (1.0515) x "KESt" (capital tax) 0.275 - "Anzurechnende ausländische (Quellen)Steuer" 0.1193) x USD/EUR Exchange Rate.

Surprising for me is the "Anzurechnende ausländische (Quellen)Steuer" (foreign withholding tax which will not be taxed twice).

I always thought that the withholding taxes (i.e. L1 leakage in the wiki article ) were leaked, i.e. would be opaque in the ETFs/funds, and so we would get taxed twice.

I.e. I thought the distributed amount would be reduced first by withholding taxes, and then the remaining amount would be taxed at 27.5%. In this case I'm happy to be wrong :)

Must be a nice peculiarity of Austrian tax law, and it puts the funds at at the same tax efficiency level (except for the TER) as individual stocks, for which foreign withholding tax rates up to 15% is taken into account when calculating calculating the KESt.

On a related note, the distributing version VWRL (OEKB entry) has a negative cost basis correction, so the cost basis would need to be lowered :confused
WienerG
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Re: [AT/Austria] clarification on ETF taxes

Post by WienerG »

alpine_boglehead wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:48 pm
WienerG wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:25 am
alpine_boglehead wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:43 am
ellaellela wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:07 am
The profitweb.at has the following for listed:

ISIN IE00BK5BQT80
Name der Anteilsgattung des Fonds Vanguard FTSE All-World UCITS ETF - (USD) Accumulating
Verwaltungsgesellschaft Vanguard Funds plc
Fondsstatus A
Geschäftsjahresende 30.06.
KESt Meldefonds seit 05.08.2019 Absichtserklärung

So, I am not sure what they intend to do with this "Absichtserklärung", hopefully they will make it for this year - I believe that they might be late as usual. However, don't take my opinion as a rule. When have you bought this ETF? I haven't received any word from flatex yet and I first got it this year's June.
It seems the actual tax declaration was published today, check out https://my.oekb.at/kapitalmarkt-service ... 00BK5BQT80
Yeah Flatex booked the tax on my act today.
WienerG
Can you confirm whether the "Anschaffungskosten" (cost basis) were also corrected?

It says - "Die Anschaffungskosten des Fondsanteils sind zu korrigieren um 0,8897" - the cost basis (purchase price) per share should now be 0.8897 higher than before (because you've already been taxed now on part of the money which you now hold in the fund).

My broker dadat seems to have missed that. I'll inquire with them.

As for the tax, it also arrived today for dadat. The tax was €0.14 per share, so it seems the calculation is ("Ausschüttungsgleiche Erträge" (1.0515) x "KESt" (capital tax) 0.275 - "Anzurechnende ausländische (Quellen)Steuer" 0.1193) x USD/EUR Exchange Rate.

Surprising for me is the "Anzurechnende ausländische (Quellen)Steuer" (foreign withholding tax which will not be taxed twice).

I always thought that the withholding taxes (i.e. L1 leakage in the wiki article ) were leaked, i.e. would be opaque in the ETFs/funds, and so we would get taxed twice.

I.e. I thought the distributed amount would be reduced first by withholding taxes, and then the remaining amount would be taxed at 27.5%. In this case I'm happy to be wrong :)

Must be a nice peculiarity of Austrian tax law, and it puts the funds at at the same tax efficiency level (except for the TER) as individual stocks, for which foreign withholding tax rates up to 15% is taken into account when calculating calculating the KESt.

On a related note, the distributing version VWRL (OEKB entry) has a negative cost basis correction, so the cost basis would need to be lowered :confused
The notional dividend for the year (across all 4 quarters) was as you said above 0,8897 USD per share. The tax you pay is 60% of the 27.5%, however you likely paid more than this because the tax is levied on all shares which were acquired during the year, irrespective of how long you held them (which means that they may have missed the notional dividend in Q1, Q2, or Q3 (even Q4 for late year purchases). This only affects the first 12 month period of holding. This is taken into consideration when (if) you sell. I found the following article on the consumer website konsument.at which explains both the taxation and the phenomena above:

https://www.konsument.at/geld-recht/inv ... s-und-kest

The section under paid too much "Zu viel bezahlt" covers this - I believe you are capable in German, else copy paste the section into a translator.

WienerG
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alpine_boglehead
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Re: [AT/Austria] clarification on ETF taxes

Post by alpine_boglehead »

WienerG wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:34 pm
The notional dividend for the year (across all 4 quarters) was as you said above 0,8897 USD per share. The tax you pay is 60% of the 27.5%, however you likely paid more than this because the tax is levied on all shares which were acquired during the year, irrespective of how long you held them (which means that they may have missed the notional dividend in Q1, Q2, or Q3 (even Q4 for late year purchases). This only affects the first 12 month period of holding. This is taken into consideration when (if) you sell. I found the following article on the consumer website konsument.at which explains both the taxation and the phenomena above:

https://www.konsument.at/geld-recht/inv ... s-und-kest

The section under paid too much "Zu viel bezahlt" covers this - I believe you are capable in German, else copy paste the section into a translator.

WienerG
Thanks - I had see this article before, but it makes more sense now. The taking into account of the foreign withholding taxes makes sense considering this paragraph:
Es gilt das sogenannte Transparenzprinzip: Wenn ein Anleger sein Geld in einen Investmentfonds steckt, soll er gleich besteuert werden, als würde er es direkt in dieselben Wertpapiere des Fonds investieren.

(i.e. if investing in funds, you're taxed like you'd invest in the underlying securities)

As far as I understand it, the reduction of the tax (60% of the 27.5% KESt) only applies to the capital gains (Substanzgewinne) within the fund and has nothing to do with the notional dividends.
WienerG
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Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:11 pm

Re: [AT/Austria] clarification on ETF taxes

Post by WienerG »

alpine_boglehead wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:43 am
WienerG wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:34 pm
As far as I understand it, the reduction of the tax (60% of the 27.5% KESt) only applies to the capital gains (Substanzgewinne) within the fund and has nothing to do with the notional dividends.
My understanding was that only 60% of the notional dividend is taxed and then as and when you come to sell the rest is included in the capital gains tax levied at that time. I paid 22.6% tax, which would support (but does not confirm) this theory... I am very happy to be corrected if anyone has more experience (we did discuss this earlier in the thread at some length - but I now have some real data to play with).. 2020 was my first forey into ETFs - most of my assets are in RE, which I will over time liquidate and transfer into a two fund portfolio (global stock & global bond).

Happy investing & stay the course!

WienerG
casually average
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri May 22, 2020 6:07 am

Re: [AT/Austria] clarification on ETF taxes

Post by casually average »

I'm glad it turned out the way we expected. For plausibility purposes I haven't (re)calculated my funds' tax burdons for 2020. If there is something wrong with the taxation or acquisition cost correction of IE00BK5BQT80, I will let you know for sure.
Hope you had a great start to 2021. Stay the course!
"What‘s the intellectual basis for indexing? Gross return minus costs equals net return. Period. What‘s the intellectual basis for active management? I‘ve never heard one." - John C. Bogle
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