New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
User avatar
Bogle7
Posts: 711
Joined: Fri May 11, 2018 9:33 am

New M1 processor

Post by Bogle7 »

crazygrow wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:06 pmIf [the M1] was truly revolutionary you would take it to the top-end first and charge a premium for it.
Volume.
Laptops far outsell all the other for factors.
02nz
Posts: 5691
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:17 pm

Re: New M1 processor

Post by 02nz »

Bogle7 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:43 pm
crazygrow wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:06 pmIf [the M1] was truly revolutionary you would take it to the top-end first and charge a premium for it.
Volume.
Laptops far outsell all the other for factors.
Switching from Intel to ARM produces a big gain in efficiency/battery life, and that obviously matters much more for laptops than for desktops.
palanzo
Posts: 1618
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:28 pm

Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by palanzo »

student wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:33 pm
palanzo wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:57 pm
student wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:40 pm
palanzo wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:29 pm
student wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:20 pm

Am I confused about the vulnerability? My understanding is it has to be a targeted attack. Someone gets hold of your machine, gets into your machine and leaves a malware. If someone steals your machine with the hard drive encrypted, it is still "safe."
Sadly no.
Is this article wrong? https://www.imore.com/apples-t2-chip-ha ... researcher It quoted the report "Once you have access on the T2, you have full root access and kernel execution privileges since the kernel is rewritten before execution. Good news is that if you are using FileVault2 as disk encryption, they do not have access to your data on disk immediately. They can however inject a keylogger in the T2 firmware since it manages keyboard access, storing your password for retrieval or transmitting it in the case of a malicious hardware attachment."

It did mention that "The exploit can be used to brute-force a FileVault2 volume password." But a brute-force attack is not efficient. My question is if someone steals a machine filevault2 turned on, how difficult is it to get to the data?
The article is correct. Here is the original paper.

https://ironpeak.be/blog/crouching-t2-hidden-danger/

Brute-forcing most people's passwords would not be that difficult and you have all the time you need. Alternatively the bad actor inserts a malicious USB device that injects a key-logger to capture the password.

The big architectural mistake was to have the T2 responsible for keyboard, audio etc as well as the Secure Enclave. From a security perspective the T2 should only have been responsible for the Secure Enclave and it should have been running a very simple secure OS, not a variant of iOS.

There is more news to come according to the author.
If it is just brute force, then I am not too worry about it as I use a very long password. I have no doubt that the government can get into it. I guess my question is can someone who has the knowledge of an average CS graduate from MIT crack it. If the answer is no, I am not too concern, as I am not worth the bad guy's time to target me.
I expect you are fine. The average CS graduate can certainly set up a GPU to crack passwords.
d18lover
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 12:31 pm

Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by d18lover »

palanzo wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:26 pm
eye.surgeon wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:10 am I'm a longtime heavy apple user. Apple is hyping their own chip, obviously, but I'm somewhat surprised at the universal accolades for an unproven design. Intel has been making chips a long time. There will be hardware bugs with the new design. I personally am not planning to be the first one over the wall with the new chip. I'll give it a year or two to shake out. 20 hours of battery life is awesome but frankly not likely to be a game changer for most people.
+1 Agreed.
Apple has been killing it with silicon for years. This is not an unproven design.
student
Posts: 5210
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:58 am

Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by student »

palanzo wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:23 pm
student wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:33 pm
palanzo wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:57 pm
student wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:40 pm
palanzo wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:29 pm

Sadly no.
Is this article wrong? https://www.imore.com/apples-t2-chip-ha ... researcher It quoted the report "Once you have access on the T2, you have full root access and kernel execution privileges since the kernel is rewritten before execution. Good news is that if you are using FileVault2 as disk encryption, they do not have access to your data on disk immediately. They can however inject a keylogger in the T2 firmware since it manages keyboard access, storing your password for retrieval or transmitting it in the case of a malicious hardware attachment."

It did mention that "The exploit can be used to brute-force a FileVault2 volume password." But a brute-force attack is not efficient. My question is if someone steals a machine filevault2 turned on, how difficult is it to get to the data?
The article is correct. Here is the original paper.

https://ironpeak.be/blog/crouching-t2-hidden-danger/

Brute-forcing most people's passwords would not be that difficult and you have all the time you need. Alternatively the bad actor inserts a malicious USB device that injects a key-logger to capture the password.

The big architectural mistake was to have the T2 responsible for keyboard, audio etc as well as the Secure Enclave. From a security perspective the T2 should only have been responsible for the Secure Enclave and it should have been running a very simple secure OS, not a variant of iOS.

There is more news to come according to the author.
If it is just brute force, then I am not too worry about it as I use a very long password. I have no doubt that the government can get into it. I guess my question is can someone who has the knowledge of an average CS graduate from MIT crack it. If the answer is no, I am not too concern, as I am not worth the bad guy's time to target me.
I expect you are fine. The average CS graduate can certainly set up a GPU to crack passwords.
Good to know. Then I am not concern as I have a password that takes 1000 years to crack with this naive approach according to secure.org. I guess I can always switch to veracrypt if there are more issues with the T2 chip. My only hesitation at this point with veracrypt is it requires FUSE and I am not familiar with it.
hunoraut
Posts: 230
Joined: Sun May 31, 2020 11:39 am

Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by hunoraut »

computer users are more at-risk of having their data compromised by other vectors than brute-force cracking enabled by physical access of device.

put another way, your overall level of security is not increased or decreased SIMPLY by your choice between a latest windows machine or latest mac machine
DesertMan
Posts: 307
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:54 pm

Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by DesertMan »

sycamore wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:10 pm
student wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:46 pm
PhoebeCoco wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:42 pm I upgraded my 2014 MacBook Air to Big Sur OS last night. No problems so far. I mostly use it for web surfing, now that I am retired, but I occasionally get the urge to do some vi'ing, so I pull up the Terminal and go to it.
Nice to find another person using vi. I think only old geezers like us use vi. Actually, these days, I use vim instead.
Vim is my preferred editor as well.
I like vim when in a hurry. :wq

WRT the T2 flaw, it does sound like FileVault can potentially protect your data; however, FileVault has a less than stellar reputation for reliability. Version 2 appears to have been improved but problems are still reported.. Using FV to mitigate the T2 bug thus trades one problem for another, though you can hedge against data loss with a healthy backup regime.

My objection with the T2 flaw is less about the flaw itself than Apple's refusal to acknowledge it, let alone launch a repair program. It is a trust issue. Any company that sells any product that has a significant design defect should fix it. Apple has had many such repair programs in the past. And Apple is certainly not wanting for the funds to replace the flawed ROMs, even if the whole logic board must be swapped. Doing so would have sent a positive message about the Apple brand. Not doing so sends a message that today's Apple is not the same company as the one Steve Jobs ran.
LookingForward
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 9:27 am

Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by LookingForward »

It looks like Apple lied again. It's probable that the new machines are faster than 99% of laptops sold last year, not 98%. :P

I'm typing this on a new MacBook Air (not the Pro) and it's a very nice machine. The benchmarks and reviews have been rather stellar. The Verge gave the MBA 9.5/10 and toyed with giving it 10/10 but didn't due to the sub-par camera.

I look forward to the retractions from the Bogleheads who said that Apple's statements were clearly just marketing hype. :wink:
hunoraut
Posts: 230
Joined: Sun May 31, 2020 11:39 am

Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by hunoraut »

Im really enjoying it. Ultra snappy.
Imperceptible wait time for anything.

Having been out of the macbook world for a few generations, the physical build quality is so pleasing to return to.

Ive crashed out of a few random 3rd party Intel-Mac apps (like a paint editor).

Only real issue with actual everyday app is Firefox not playing well with extensions. Guessing that will be solved in upcoming days because this is literally day 2 of laptop release.

Other thing to note is the machine hasnt gone up beyond 6GB ram consumption. It just hovers there with Outlook, Word, Firefox (multiple tabs), Safari, brokerage app, and multiple messaging applications simultaneously open. Thats as much as I have ever realistically multitask.

And the final surprise is that there is no native Netflix app to download offline movies, even though there is one on Windows. Ultra surprised something that popular isnt available.
oxothuk
Posts: 552
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:35 pm

Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by oxothuk »

DesertMan wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:25 pm I like vim when in a hurry. :wq
vim is always in one of the following modes
a) vim beeps at me
b) I curse at vim
inbox788
Posts: 7732
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:24 pm

Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by inbox788 »

hunoraut wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:30 pmAnd the final surprise is that there is no native Netflix app to download offline movies, even though there is one on Windows. Ultra surprised something that popular isnt available.
I assume it's "not yet". In the meantime, you might try this.

Here’s how to install almost any iPhone or iPad app on M1 Macs, including Netflix, Instagram, and more
https://9to5mac.com/2020/11/18/how-to-i ... pp-m1-mac/
hunoraut
Posts: 230
Joined: Sun May 31, 2020 11:39 am

Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by hunoraut »

inbox788 wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:47 am I assume it's "not yet". In the meantime, you might try this.

Here’s how to install almost any iPhone or iPad app on M1 Macs, including Netflix, Instagram, and more
https://9to5mac.com/2020/11/18/how-to-i ... pp-m1-mac/
It's a very neat trick, but the problem with this unofficial workaround and the official iOS-on-macOS apps is the funky support of window sizing. I can't get Netflix to resize or fullscreen, and the point is to use it for offline video viewing.

The fact that Netflix apparently hasn't published Netflix app even for traditional Intel Macs, makes me wonder if it's some deliberate decision e.g. licensing, being competitive vs Apple TV service, etc. Probably the latter.
inbox788
Posts: 7732
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:24 pm

Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by inbox788 »

hunoraut wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:51 am
inbox788 wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:47 am I assume it's "not yet". In the meantime, you might try this.

Here’s how to install almost any iPhone or iPad app on M1 Macs, including Netflix, Instagram, and more
https://9to5mac.com/2020/11/18/how-to-i ... pp-m1-mac/
It's a very neat trick, but the problem with this unofficial workaround and the official iOS-on-macOS apps is the funky support of window sizing. I can't get Netflix to resize or fullscreen, and the point is to use it for offline video viewing.

The fact that Netflix apparently hasn't published Netflix app even for traditional Intel Macs, makes me wonder if it's some deliberate decision e.g. licensing, being competitive vs Apple TV service, etc. Probably the latter.
I didn't know that gap in the Mac echosystem. I've found Netflix apps in unexpected places, so assumed they put a lot of effort to getting the app out here. Since the app is available in iOS, it should only be a matter of clicking the M1 Mac box and recompile. If they don't do that, then there probably is a non-technical issue.

FWIW, I'm noticing Roku is now supposedly supporting Airplay and Siri, and that makes an interesting dynamic. There are too many incompatible hardware, platforms, apps, and content providers now that it's impossibly complicated. When Netflix was the only obvious go to platform, it was easy, but now it's facing competition from all fronts, but the 2nd and 3rd places are all but clear and seemingly constantly evolving. This year Disney has a strong showing. Hulu, Amazon, Sling, Apple, HBO, Sony, etc. are still trying. Competition is generally a good thing, but here's a situation where stability is needed, and Netflix has been the winner in that effort.
angelescrest
Posts: 1109
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 10:48 am
Location: Texas

Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by angelescrest »

chuckb84 wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:52 am They look like great computers to me. I'd get the MBP, not the Air. The weight difference is trivial and the fan cooling of the MBP will matter on any sustained demanding tasks. However....

Think about what apps you use. There will be a period of time in which many apps will rely on Rosetta 2, an Intel to Arm on-the-fly code translator. Apps will run slower, perhaps much slower with that. In time, apps will be recompiled as Arm native, but the interim period could be annoying.

Apple has taken a conservative approach with these first machines. They are almost identical to the Intel models they replace: No upgraded camera, still pretty large screen bezels, no cellular modem built in, and no touch screen.

However, this is the future of Macs and possibly Windows as well. These machines have about 1.8 times the performance of the laptops they replace and nearly double the battery life -simultaneously-. That's quite a feat.
I’m a power user and have always used a MBP (and it’s predecessors) for the past 20 years. I’m sure I’m in the minority, but I can’t stand how the MBP fans always scream at me when I’m using it disconnected from power. It’s obnoxious enough that I would love to have a version without a fan even if it means there’s a reduction in performance. The Air has my attention.
hunoraut
Posts: 230
Joined: Sun May 31, 2020 11:39 am

Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by hunoraut »

inbox788 wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:37 pm FWIW, I'm noticing Roku is now supposedly supporting Airplay and Siri, and that makes an interesting dynamic. There are too many incompatible hardware, platforms, apps, and content providers now that it's impossibly complicated. When Netflix was the only obvious go to platform, it was easy, but now it's facing competition from all fronts, but the 2nd and 3rd places are all but clear and seemingly constantly evolving. This year Disney has a strong showing. Hulu, Amazon, Sling, Apple, HBO, Sony, etc. are still trying. Competition is generally a good thing, but here's a situation where stability is needed, and Netflix has been the winner in that effort.
It's a bit disappointing, too, since digital streaming was supposed to usher in the era of a la carte pricing vs the monopolistic cable tv cartel.

Except now the major streaming services also package their offerings as bundles, AND none of the particular bundles are sufficient, so most households ends up having multiple streaming service with lots and lots of redundant "channels", with a ballooning total cost that exceeds traditional cable service.

Unintended...but probably inevitable.
palanzo
Posts: 1618
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:28 pm

Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by palanzo »

LookingForward wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:39 pm It looks like Apple lied again. It's probable that the new machines are faster than 99% of laptops sold last year, not 98%. :P

I'm typing this on a new MacBook Air (not the Pro) and it's a very nice machine. The benchmarks and reviews have been rather stellar. The Verge gave the MBA 9.5/10 and toyed with giving it 10/10 but didn't due to the sub-par camera.

I look forward to the retractions from the Bogleheads who said that Apple's statements were clearly just marketing hype. :wink:
It’s Apple’s first-generation processor, designed to replace the chips in Apple’s weakest, cheapest laptops and desktops.

The new MacBook Air and MacBook Pro won’t be the perfect laptops for everyone, especially if you rely on huge, GPU-intensive tasks or specific developer tools.

https://www.theverge.com/2020/11/19/215 ... ompetition

Nice machines. How are you measuring "faster"?
User avatar
Bogle7
Posts: 711
Joined: Fri May 11, 2018 9:33 am

Gruber is a fan

Post by Bogle7 »

angelescrest wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:55 pm can’t stand how the MBP fans always scream at me when I’m using it disconnected from power. It’s obnoxious enough that I would love to have a version without a fan even if it means there’s a reduction in performance. The Air has my attention.
Read this
https://daringfireball.net/2020/11/the_m1_macs
crazygrow
Posts: 174
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:56 am

Re: New M1 processor

Post by crazygrow »

Bogle7 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:43 pm
crazygrow wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:06 pmIf [the M1] was truly revolutionary you would take it to the top-end first and charge a premium for it.
Volume.
Laptops far outsell all the other for factors.
Im referring between the MB pro 13” and the 16” - both laptops.
User avatar
CyberBob
Posts: 3333
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:53 pm

Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by CyberBob »

angelescrest wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:55 pm I’m a power user and have always used a MBP (and it’s predecessors) for the past 20 years. I’m sure I’m in the minority, but I can’t stand how the MBP fans always scream at me when I’m using it disconnected from power. It’s obnoxious enough that I would love to have a version without a fan even if it means there’s a reduction in performance. The Air has my attention.
I've been using an M1 MacBook Pro for three days now under similar circumstances that would have triggered the fan on my previous Intel version. So far, the M1 MacBook Pro hasn't even gotten warm.
User avatar
Nicolas Perrault
Posts: 224
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:33 pm
Location: Oxford, UK

Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by Nicolas Perrault »

Mid-2014 MBP 13” here, working well. Let me ask you, is the marginal benefit of upgrading now worth hundreds of dollars to you? My MBP did what it was supposed to do when I got it years ago and still does that job fine today. I will keep it until it fails, becomes hopelessly obsolete, or when it becomes slow and starts wasting my time. I’m not there at all yet.

So for you I would see no reason to switch. Unless, of course, getting a new Mac would save you a lot of time or bring you lots of pleasure. Then go for it.
rich126
Posts: 2132
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:56 pm

Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by rich126 »

Not sure if this was posted before but Ars Technica has a review of the new Mi Apple Mac Mini.
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/11 ... after-all/

From a quick scan (I'm not planning to buy anything M1 related anytime soon) the things that would concern me are:

1. Virtualization of Windows. Obviously only an issue for those that use windows in development, testing, etc. No time frame at all for products such as Parallels to come out with a product. And smaller stuff like Dosbox doesn't work (kind of obvious since it isn't an intel based CPU).

2.
Unfortunately, I must report that this iOS/iPadOS app capability needs a lot more time in the oven. The iPhone and iPad app experience in macOS is simply not good most of the time.
3.
Rosetta 2 translates apps developed for x86 macOS to work on the M1 or other Apple Silicon CPUs, which are not capable of natively running said apps. It does this ahead of time, not on the fly—meaning when you install the app or first launch it (depending on the installation method) it is recompiled for the new architecture. Further, the app is automatically recompiled again as Apple releases relevant software updates.
Apparently this works well unless you have some app that involves using kernel extensions and some other stuff.

For most people that stuff may not matter but for others it would (I use vmware workstation for certain things). I'll let things shake out over the next couple of years.
angelescrest
Posts: 1109
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 10:48 am
Location: Texas

Re: Gruber is a fan

Post by angelescrest »

Bogle7 wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:14 pm
angelescrest wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:55 pm can’t stand how the MBP fans always scream at me when I’m using it disconnected from power. It’s obnoxious enough that I would love to have a version without a fan even if it means there’s a reduction in performance. The Air has my attention.
Read this
https://daringfireball.net/2020/11/the_m1_macs
Wow, that’s exciting! If the upcoming, high end 16” MBPs can demonstrate the same thing, I’d update again if I can convince IT that my $3600 MBP needs replacing lol. Though the processors on my systems always ran hotter than entry level MBPs.

I could care less what the computer looks like (after a week you don’t notice anything except the screen and keyboard anyway), but if it is indeed silent and cooler underneath, I think I’ll be a lot happier with it. Really excited for this major leap in computing.
New Providence
Posts: 294
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:10 am

Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by New Providence »

bluebolt wrote: Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:35 pm Anyone else considering the same?
Yes
bluebolt wrote: Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:35 pm any reason to wait rather than make the purchase soon?
No
aednichols
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:44 pm

Re: New M1 processor

Post by aednichols »

Bogle7 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:43 pm
crazygrow wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:06 pmIf [the M1] was truly revolutionary you would take it to the top-end first and charge a premium for it.
Volume.
Laptops far outsell all the other for factors.
Accurate.

Additional factor is that Apple is never afraid to cannibalize its own products if doing so supports their long-term strategy. Steve Jobs famously said that he is not worried about the iPhone stealing iPod sales, because he'd rather Apple keep those sales than give them to someone else.
Last edited by aednichols on Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
aednichols
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:44 pm

Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by aednichols »

I am writing this from an M1 MacBook Air, 16 GB / 1 TB. Seeing as I'm confined to quarters on account of the pandemic I am happy to answer questions/try stuff on this machine to satisfy the curious.

I am a programmer by profession and upon receiving it I immediately tried compiling my main project from work. The Air builds twice as fast as my $3000 work-issued MacBook Pro and warms up barely past room temperature. The Pro sounds like a 747 doing the same thing.
Independent George
Posts: 992
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:13 pm
Location: Chicago, IL, USA

Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by Independent George »

I have to admit - there are a lot of things I really dislike about Apple computers (as opposed to their consumer electronics, which I own and love), but the M1 looks like an industry-shaking gamechanger. I'm not actually in the market for a laptop right now, but I'm genuinely tempted by it.
User avatar
Leif
Posts: 3064
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:15 pm

Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by Leif »

aednichols wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:48 pm I am writing this from an M1 MacBook Air, 16 GB / 1 TB. Seeing as I'm confined to quarters on account of the pandemic I am happy to answer questions/try stuff on this machine to satisfy the curious.
Do you have Microsoft Office for the Mac? I do some VBA programming on Excel.
aednichols
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:44 pm

Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by aednichols »

Leif wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:57 pm
aednichols wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:48 pm I am writing this from an M1 MacBook Air, 16 GB / 1 TB. Seeing as I'm confined to quarters on account of the pandemic I am happy to answer questions/try stuff on this machine to satisfy the curious.
Do you have Microsoft Office for the Mac? I do some VBA programming on Excel.
I have O365 on it; I'm not sure if the Mac App Store version of Excel supports VBA. Not something I use personally.

VBA is an interpreted programming language so it should work just fine under Rosetta. Similar to how browsers run under Rosetta and interpret Javascript.
hunoraut
Posts: 230
Joined: Sun May 31, 2020 11:39 am

Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by hunoraut »

I have O365/O2019 and the interface still looks childish compared to Windows version.

MacOS variant has always been a bit of a stepchild
Post Reply