Starved & Searching for Yield???

Discuss all general (i.e. non-personal) investing questions and issues, investing news, and theory.
Scooter57
Posts: 1543
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:20 am

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by Scooter57 »

I would NOT suggest buying these now as they were bought months ago starting at the end of May, when they were mostly undervalued but have caught up or are now overvalued. I have not bought any individual stocks since 9/28 as the only apparent undervalued stocks I see now are from companies with issues.

As an example of how fast valuations change, I bought Lowes at $129 , now at $159 and Proctor & Gamble at $116 now at $144.

My worst investments so far are Cisco and AT&T (bought a few years ago). I'm mulling tax loss harvesting them next month.

Other good recent buys, Snap On, Southern Co., Colgate Palmolive.

Only other lagging investment is Kroger but I have hopes for it.

I bought T J Maxx when they suspended their dividend because I think it will thrive once things normalize and will again be an excellent dividend stock. It is up 10% since Aug 29 when I bought in.

Other stocks are Verizon, Kimberley Clark, Abbvie, CVS, Realty Income and one ETF, Vanguard Utilities ETF.
User avatar
Topic Author
abuss368
Posts: 22030
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Where the water is warm, the drinks are cold, and I don't know the names of the players!
Contact:

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by abuss368 »

Carol88888 wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:19 am I have added a slug of VYM to my otherwise indexed portfolio for the need for some yield. My thought was that this fund could give more yield than any bond fund (except maybe high yield) and that the returns would be approximately the same as the S&P 500 - or a little less.

Are you prepared to take on the added equity risk? I was because I would much rather have income coming in during retirement.
The High Dividend Fund is a nice fund. Yields about 3.65% or so. Do you also invest in VYMI - Vanguard International High Yield?
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
User avatar
Rowan Oak
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon May 09, 2016 2:11 pm
Location: Yoknapatawpha

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by Rowan Oak »

abuss368 wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:16 am Rick Ferri is the only advisor that I am aware of on the forum you historically recommended a 20% of bonds to High Yield. That has been a number of years so I am unsure if Rick currently recommends that or has simplified.
His current recommendations are on his website: https://core-4.com/portfolios/
“If you can get good at destroying your own wrong ideas, that is a great gift.” – Charlie Munger
User avatar
Topic Author
abuss368
Posts: 22030
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Where the water is warm, the drinks are cold, and I don't know the names of the players!
Contact:

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by abuss368 »

Rowan Oak wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:53 pm
abuss368 wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:16 am Rick Ferri is the only advisor that I am aware of on the forum you historically recommended a 20% of bonds to High Yield. That has been a number of years so I am unsure if Rick currently recommends that or has simplified.
His current recommendations are on his website: https://core-4.com/portfolios/
Rick at one time recommended many more parts in a portfolio. The bond recommendations as 60% Total Bond, 20% High Yield Junk Bonds, and 20% TIPS. I am not sure if he has simplified this since that time.
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
Carol88888
Posts: 324
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:24 am

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by Carol88888 »

abuss368 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:19 pm
Carol88888 wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:19 am I have added a slug of VYM to my otherwise indexed portfolio for the need for some yield. My thought was that this fund could give more yield than any bond fund (except maybe high yield) and that the returns would be approximately the same as the S&P 500 - or a little less.

Are you prepared to take on the added equity risk? I was because I would much rather have income coming in during retirement.
The High Dividend Fund is a nice fund. Yields about 3.65% or so. Do you also invest in VYMI - Vanguard International High Yield?
Haven't looked into VYMI. I bet it has a very good yield.
Scooter57
Posts: 1543
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:20 am

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by Scooter57 »

VYMI's yield is only a tiny bit higher than VYM's but a good chunk of its dividends are not qualified. It is very heavy in banks from places like China, Russia, etc which are not regulated like those in democratic countries. Lots of mining and oil, too.

I doubt the risk is rewarded. Its performance has been pretty dismal.
User avatar
Topic Author
abuss368
Posts: 22030
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Where the water is warm, the drinks are cold, and I don't know the names of the players!
Contact:

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by abuss368 »

Scooter57 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:32 pm VYMI's yield is only a tiny bit higher than VYM's but a good chunk of its dividends are not qualified. It is very heavy in banks from places like China, Russia, etc which are not regulated like those in democratic countries. Lots of mining and oil, too.

I doubt the risk is rewarded. Its performance has been pretty dismal.
Thanks. Interesting.
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
burritoLover
Posts: 368
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:13 pm

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by burritoLover »

Bond interest gains you wealth, stock dividends net you nothing. You can actually get the FULL dividend by owning the stock or stock fund for less than a day - just buy it the day before the ex-div date and sell on the ex-div date. You might want to ask yourself why that is possible if you believe that dividends are increasing your wealth.
"Your money is like a bar of soap. The more you handle it, the less you’ll have." - Gene Fama
Scooter57
Posts: 1543
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:20 am

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by Scooter57 »

Could it be that, as academics have long pointed out, there have been decades during which the only benefit you got from owning the S&P 500 was the dividend?

The whole rationale behind owning stock, for most market history, was that you bought a share of a company in order to share in its profits which were distributed as dividends. The idea that the only reason to buy a stock is to sell it to someone who will pay more for it--the "greater fool theory"-- reminds me of Beanie Babies. It works until it doesn't.

I prefer stocks whose growth is likely to attract investors who buy only hoping to sell to a "greater fool" as well as paying a market-average dividend. I don't buy just for the dividend, but I also don't: expect the market to only go up.

Those who always assert that "everything is priced in" keep ignoring that many years of future growth that has not yet happened is currently priced into the share prices of companies dominating the indexes.

I bought this year's dividend stocks to replace a CD. The dividend is very likely to continue no matter what happens to price as these are established, boring companies with long histories of dividend payment. They are doing fine under the current conditions. It would be nice if they grew their prices over the next five years but I will be satisfied if their total return matches that of the 3%CD that I used to have, after taxes.
User avatar
birdog
Posts: 784
Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:35 pm

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by birdog »

Scooter57 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:39 pm I would NOT suggest buying these now as they were bought months ago starting at the end of May, when they were mostly undervalued but have caught up or are now overvalued. I have not bought any individual stocks since 9/28 as the only apparent undervalued stocks I see now are from companies with issues.

As an example of how fast valuations change, I bought Lowes at $129 , now at $159 and Proctor & Gamble at $116 now at $144.

My worst investments so far are Cisco and AT&T (bought a few years ago). I'm mulling tax loss harvesting them next month.

Other good recent buys, Snap On, Southern Co., Colgate Palmolive.

Only other lagging investment is Kroger but I have hopes for it.

I bought T J Maxx when they suspended their dividend because I think it will thrive once things normalize and will again be an excellent dividend stock. It is up 10% since Aug 29 when I bought in.

Other stocks are Verizon, Kimberley Clark, Abbvie, CVS, Realty Income and one ETF, Vanguard Utilities ETF.
Thank you for sharing these. I was surprised that Kroger is lagging. I hope these work well for you.
burritoLover
Posts: 368
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:13 pm

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by burritoLover »

Scooter57 wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:20 am Could it be that, as academics have long pointed out, there have been decades during which the only benefit you got from owning the S&P 500 was the dividend?

The whole rationale behind owning stock, for most market history, was that you bought a share of a company in order to share in its profits which were distributed as dividends. The idea that the only reason to buy a stock is to sell it to someone who will pay more for it--the "greater fool theory"-- reminds me of Beanie Babies. It works until it doesn't.

I prefer stocks whose growth is likely to attract investors who buy only hoping to sell to a "greater fool" as well as paying a market-average dividend. I don't buy just for the dividend, but I also don't: expect the market to only go up.

Those who always assert that "everything is priced in" keep ignoring that many years of future growth that has not yet happened is currently priced into the share prices of companies dominating the indexes.

I bought this year's dividend stocks to replace a CD. The dividend is very likely to continue no matter what happens to price as these are established, boring companies with long histories of dividend payment. They are doing fine under the current conditions. It would be nice if they grew their prices over the next five years but I will be satisfied if their total return matches that of the 3%CD that I used to have, after taxes.
The price of the stock (or stock fund/etf) drops by the amount of the dividend. You are netting nothing when you are paid a dividend. There's nothing else to know. There's no difference between receiving a dividend and selling the same amount of a non-dividend stock. Doesn't matter if the market is up or down or its been stagnant for 10 years. And there's no evidence that dividend paying companies have a higher average return than non-dividend paying companies with the same risk factors and expected future profitability. You should be indifferent to whether a company pays a dividend or not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5j9v9dfinQ
"Your money is like a bar of soap. The more you handle it, the less you’ll have." - Gene Fama
Scooter57
Posts: 1543
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:20 am

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by Scooter57 »

burritoLover wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:18 pm The price of the stock (or stock fund/etf) drops by the amount of the dividend. You are netting nothing when you are paid a dividend. There's nothing else to know. There's no difference between receiving a dividend and selling the same amount of a non-dividend stock.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5j9v9dfinQ
I see this repeated endlessly here on Bogleheads and mostly it tells me that the people posting it don't know the difference between how a fund and a stock behave. Yes. A fund does drop after accumulated dividends are paid out. The ETF may too. But if you actually looked at the prices of stocks after they paid dividends you would see that there is not clear cut relationship. Most stocks nowadays pay quarterly dividends that are less than 1% and stock prices go up and down by that much quite frequently.

For example, CVS, which has paid a 2.82% yield this past year went ex-dividend on 10/21 and paid its dividend on 11/02.

Here are the prices around the date it went ex-div: (Data from Yahoo historical prices.)
10/16/20 59.09
10/19/20 58.29
10/20/20 58.93
10/21/20 59.23
10/21/20 Ex-div .5
10/22/20 59.48
10/23/20 60.25
10/26/20 59.56

Here are the closing prices of the days around the actual payment of the dividend:
10/30/20 56.09
11/02/20 58.08 DIVIDEND PAID
11/03/20 59.45
11/04/20 60.37
11/05/20 61.41
11/06/20 64.95
11/09/20 67.53
11/10/20 70.23


It's your same old random walk. In this case when the stock price started to move it was in response to news in the quarterly report that made it clear that the company was going to be more profitable this year than expected. The impact of the dividend is impossible to see.

When I first heard this canard repeated here on Bogleheads, I checked quite a few stocks to see if there was a discernible pattern. But there usually isn't. Just that same old random walk. Sometimes the stocks go down, after the dividend, but not by the amount of the dividend, sometimes they go up. Good quality dividend-paying stocks go up when there is reason to believe that their business is doing better than expected and down when new issues arise that make people question their previous assumptions about how the company will do.

People who blindly trust what they are told, or who let themselves be too influenced by academic research based on backtesting where they haven't actually examined the research and checked out the way it was conducted can be misled. I have spent years double checking academic research in another field and have learned that academics often design studies to prove what they "know" to be true and aren't shy about twisting the data until it squeaks out the answer they want to hear. And that is in a field where there are much more "rigorous" controlled studies.The devil is always in the details. Listen to what they tell you, but then look closely, and in a case like this where you have access to the same data, take a hard look at it on your own.
FineOne
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:59 pm

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by FineOne »

I would do none of the above. I would buy PSLDX if I wanted higher yield/return.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=305950
User avatar
William Million
Posts: 706
Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 4:41 am
Location: A Deep Mountain

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by William Million »

FineOne wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:02 pm I would do none of the above. I would buy PSLDX if I wanted higher yield/return.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=305950
and high risk, high expense ratio
User avatar
Topic Author
abuss368
Posts: 22030
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Where the water is warm, the drinks are cold, and I don't know the names of the players!
Contact:

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by abuss368 »

burritoLover wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:12 am Bond interest gains you wealth, stock dividends net you nothing. You can actually get the FULL dividend by owning the stock or stock fund for less than a day - just buy it the day before the ex-div date and sell on the ex-div date. You might want to ask yourself why that is possible if you believe that dividends are increasing your wealth.
That is interesting for sure.
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
000
Posts: 3249
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:04 am

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by 000 »

burritoLover wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:12 am Bond interest gains you wealth, stock dividends net you nothing. You can actually get the FULL dividend by owning the stock or stock fund for less than a day - just buy it the day before the ex-div date and sell on the ex-div date. You might want to ask yourself why that is possible if you believe that dividends are increasing your wealth.
Same is true of bonds.

Or did you think the secondary market for bonds didn't price in the day on which the interest payment will stay with the seller instead of going to the buyer?
User avatar
William Million
Posts: 706
Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 4:41 am
Location: A Deep Mountain

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by William Million »

As this thread shows, there are not many free lunches when reaching for yield. All the suggestions so far on this thread that might out-yield short duration bonds carry additional risk. If you're comfortable with additional risk in order to get more yield, go for it.

As for genuine free lunches, there are a few, but not many. For instance, Citi currently has an offer of a $4,000 bonus for new accounts of $1 million and $2,000 for new accounts of $500,000. You have to keep the $ in Citi for 60 days. That comes to a guaranteed rate of return of over 2%, annualized. So it's a free lunch but you have to be willing to put in the time moving the $ around. Many are not.

Some laugh at me for chasing promotions but I've made $6,000 this year just by opening new brokerage accounts. I'll also have multiple international business class flight tix (post-pandemic) for switching credit cards. Each year I try to make an an extra $10,000 through various promotions.
000
Posts: 3249
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:04 am

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by 000 »

William Million wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:25 pm As for genuine free lunches, there are a few, but not many. For instance, Citi currently has an offer of a $4,000 bonus for new accounts of $1 million and $2,000 for new accounts of $500,000. You have to keep the $ in Citi for 60 days. That comes to a guaranteed rate of return of over 2%, annualized. So it's a free lunch but you have to be willing to put in the time moving the $ around. Many are not.
I think exceeding FDIC limits comes with a risk, so not a free lunch.
burritoLover
Posts: 368
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:13 pm

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by burritoLover »

000 wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:15 pm
burritoLover wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:12 am Bond interest gains you wealth, stock dividends net you nothing. You can actually get the FULL dividend by owning the stock or stock fund for less than a day - just buy it the day before the ex-div date and sell on the ex-div date. You might want to ask yourself why that is possible if you believe that dividends are increasing your wealth.
Same is true of bonds.

Or did you think the secondary market for bonds didn't price in the day on which the interest payment will stay with the seller instead of going to the buyer?
Umm no, the buyer pays the seller the acrued interest to that point.
"Your money is like a bar of soap. The more you handle it, the less you’ll have." - Gene Fama
User avatar
William Million
Posts: 706
Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 4:41 am
Location: A Deep Mountain

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by William Million »

000 wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:42 pm
William Million wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:25 pm As for genuine free lunches, there are a few, but not many. For instance, Citi currently has an offer of a $4,000 bonus for new accounts of $1 million and $2,000 for new accounts of $500,000. You have to keep the $ in Citi for 60 days. That comes to a guaranteed rate of return of over 2%, annualized. So it's a free lunch but you have to be willing to put in the time moving the $ around. Many are not.
I think exceeding FDIC limits comes with a risk, so not a free lunch.
Married couple will get the $500,000 insured. However, if that's a problem for you, you can open the account with lower amounts for proportionately lower bonuses.
000
Posts: 3249
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:04 am

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by 000 »

burritoLover wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:44 pm
000 wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:15 pm
burritoLover wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:12 am Bond interest gains you wealth, stock dividends net you nothing. You can actually get the FULL dividend by owning the stock or stock fund for less than a day - just buy it the day before the ex-div date and sell on the ex-div date. You might want to ask yourself why that is possible if you believe that dividends are increasing your wealth.
Same is true of bonds.

Or did you think the secondary market for bonds didn't price in the day on which the interest payment will stay with the seller instead of going to the buyer?
Umm no, the buyer pays the seller the acrued interest to that point.
Exactly...
burritoLover
Posts: 368
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:13 pm

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by burritoLover »

Scooter57 wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:42 pmI see this repeated endlessly here on Bogleheads and mostly it tells me that the people posting it don't know the difference between how a fund and a stock behave. Yes. A fund does drop after accumulated dividends are paid out. The ETF may too. But if you actually looked at the prices of stocks after they paid dividends you would see that there is not clear cut relationship. Most stocks nowadays pay quarterly dividends that are less than 1% and stock prices go up and down by that much quite frequently.

For example, CVS, which has paid a 2.82% yield this past year went ex-dividend on 10/21 and paid its dividend on 11/02.

Here are the prices around the date it went ex-div: (Data from Yahoo historical prices.)
10/16/20 59.09
10/19/20 58.29
10/20/20 58.93
10/21/20 59.23
10/21/20 Ex-div .5
10/22/20 59.48
10/23/20 60.25
10/26/20 59.56

Here are the closing prices of the days around the actual payment of the dividend:
10/30/20 56.09
11/02/20 58.08 DIVIDEND PAID
11/03/20 59.45
11/04/20 60.37
11/05/20 61.41
11/06/20 64.95
11/09/20 67.53
11/10/20 70.23


It's your same old random walk. In this case when the stock price started to move it was in response to news in the quarterly report that made it clear that the company was going to be more profitable this year than expected. The impact of the dividend is impossible to see.

When I first heard this canard repeated here on Bogleheads, I checked quite a few stocks to see if there was a discernible pattern. But there usually isn't. Just that same old random walk. Sometimes the stocks go down, after the dividend, but not by the amount of the dividend, sometimes they go up. Good quality dividend-paying stocks go up when there is reason to believe that their business is doing better than expected and down when new issues arise that make people question their previous assumptions about how the company will do.

People who blindly trust what they are told, or who let themselves be too influenced by academic research based on backtesting where they haven't actually examined the research and checked out the way it was conducted can be misled. I have spent years double checking academic research in another field and have learned that academics often design studies to prove what they "know" to be true and aren't shy about twisting the data until it squeaks out the answer they want to hear. And that is in a field where there are much more "rigorous" controlled studies.The devil is always in the details. Listen to what they tell you, but then look closely, and in a case like this where you have access to the same data, take a hard look at it on your own.
Then you should just buy a high yield dividend stock at 3:59p the day before the ex-date and then sell immediately at open the next day. You’ll collect the full dividend while not requiring you to take on the risk of holding the stock long term. You could just do that with Exxon for the next 4 dividend payouts with its 9% yield. you could set up a ladder of payouts in this way with different stocks and roll in the cash with very little market risk. Since you are so sure this opportunity isn’t arbitraged away by the market - this should be your primary strategy.

Drops by the amount of the dividend doesn’t mean in a vacuum - the stock is still actively traded and overnight news and trading still impacts the opening price - which btw does not have any special meaning other than the price of the first transaction.
"Your money is like a bar of soap. The more you handle it, the less you’ll have." - Gene Fama
MarkRoulo
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2015 10:25 am

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by MarkRoulo »

Scooter57 wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:42 pm
burritoLover wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:18 pm The price of the stock (or stock fund/etf) drops by the amount of the dividend. You are netting nothing when you are paid a dividend. There's nothing else to know. There's no difference between receiving a dividend and selling the same amount of a non-dividend stock.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5j9v9dfinQ
I see this repeated endlessly here on Bogleheads and mostly it tells me that the people posting it don't know the difference between how a fund and a stock behave. Yes. A fund does drop after accumulated dividends are paid out. The ETF may too. But if you actually looked at the prices of stocks after they paid dividends you would see that there is not clear cut relationship. Most stocks nowadays pay quarterly dividends that are less than 1% and stock prices go up and down by that much quite frequently.
...
It can be difficult to tease out the day-to-day fluctuations from a drop in share price because the company has just written checks against the corporate treasury.

One thing you might want to look at is stock price behavior around large special dividends. These tend to be much larger than daily fluctuations and thus the effect of the corporate treasury being minus, say, $30 billion is a bit easier to see in the share price.

One example of this would be KLA paying out a $16.50 dividend on 26-Nov-2014. The stock closing price around that looked like this:
  • 24-Nov: $83.71
  • 25-Nov: $84.14
  • 26-Nov: $67.33 [$84.14 - $67.33 = $16.88]
  • Thanksgiving Day
  • 28-Nov: $69.44
Another example would be Microsoft's $3/share special dividend (which did come to around $30 billion taken from the Microsoft checking account and handed out to shareholders) in November of 2004.
  • 10-Nov: $29.73
  • 11-Nov: $29.98
  • 12-Nov: $29.97
    Weekend ... dividend is effectively paid here to folks who own the stock
  • 15-Nov: $27.39 [$29.97 - $27.39 = $2.58]
  • 16-Nov: $27.12
Note that the Microsoft drop is NOT exactly $3.00/share, but then again the day-to-day fluctuations aren't $0/share, either.

Of course, you can also treat dividends as free money and follow burritoLover's suggestion to purchase shares just before they go ex-dividend and then sell them the next morning.
hudson
Posts: 3378
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:15 am

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by hudson »

FineOne wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:02 pm I would do none of the above. I would buy PSLDX if I wanted higher yield/return.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=305950
PSLDX PIMCO StocksPLUS Long Duration Fund Institutional Class (PSLDX)

1.01% Expense Ratio
40% Stocks, 51% Bonds
Portfolio/Holdings: https://www.schwab.com/public/schwab/in ... ol%3DPSLDX
SEC 2.13%
TTM 6.74%
Effective Duration of Bonds 16 years
User avatar
birdog
Posts: 784
Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:35 pm

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by birdog »

In the latest Kiplinger's issue, BofA's Jared Woodard calls for a higher stock allocation and taking more risk on the fixed income side of the portfolio in response to today's low interest rates. It' a quick read.

https://www.kiplinger.com/investing/sto ... -portfolio
Scooter57
Posts: 1543
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:20 am

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by Scooter57 »

burritoLover wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:43 pm
Then you should just buy a high yield dividend stock at 3:59p the day before the ex-date and then sell immediately at open the next day. You’ll collect the full dividend while not requiring you to take on the risk of holding the stock long term. You could just do that with Exxon for the next 4 dividend payouts with its 9% yield. you could set up a ladder of payouts in this way with different stocks and roll in the cash with very little market risk. Since you are so sure this opportunity isn’t arbitraged away by the market - this should be your primary strategy.

Drops by the amount of the dividend doesn’t mean in a vacuum - the stock is still actively traded and overnight news and trading still impacts the opening price - which btw does not have any special meaning other than the price of the first transaction.
There are quite a few investors who report doing exactly what you describe though I wouldn't do it because my state taxes short term gains punitively. Still, it must work enough of the time to be worth it to them or they wouldn't do it. Remember, if you are right 60% of the time, you make money. You would have made money if you traded around Exxon's most recent ex-div date (Nov 10).

Data from Yahoo XOM Price History:

11/06/20 32.78
11/09/20 36.93
11/10/20 36.86
11/10/20 .87 Div
11/11/20 36.48
11/12/20 35.23
11/13/20 36.08
11/16/20 38.16

Buying on 11/10 and selling on 11/16 you would have made a 5.83% gain. Not too shabby.

So you really should verify check out the things that can be checked out before making claims.

One reason that stocks often gain after a dividend is paid is that investors who are planning to buy them but hold them in taxable accounts may want to wait until the dividend is paid to reduce their taxes.

But this is beside the point, because you are talking about day trading and most people buying dividend stocks are buying them as a buy and hold investment, not a day trading opportunity. And the point I was making is that theoretical dogma derived from aggregated data doesn't necessarily apply to individual stocks.
Scooter57
Posts: 1543
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:20 am

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by Scooter57 »

MarkRoulo wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:21 am
It can be difficult to tease out the day-to-day fluctuations from a drop in share price because the company has just written checks against the corporate treasury.

One thing you might want to look at is stock price behavior around large special dividends. These tend to be much larger than daily fluctuations and thus the effect of the corporate treasury being minus, say, $30 billion is a bit easier to see in the share price.

One example of this would be KLA paying out a $16.50 dividend on 26-Nov-2014. The stock closing price around that looked like this:
  • 24-Nov: $83.71
  • 25-Nov: $84.14
  • 26-Nov: $67.33 [$84.14 - $67.33 = $16.88]
  • Thanksgiving Day
  • 28-Nov: $69.44
Another example would be Microsoft's $3/share special dividend (which did come to around $30 billion taken from the Microsoft checking account and handed out to shareholders) in November of 2004.
  • 10-Nov: $29.73
  • 11-Nov: $29.98
  • 12-Nov: $29.97
    Weekend ... dividend is effectively paid here to folks who own the stock
  • 15-Nov: $27.39 [$29.97 - $27.39 = $2.58]
  • 16-Nov: $27.12
Note that the Microsoft drop is NOT exactly $3.00/share, but then again the day-to-day fluctuations aren't $0/share, either.

Of course, you can also treat dividends as free money and follow burritoLover's suggestion to purchase shares just before they go ex-dividend and then sell them the next morning.
Large special dividends are quite different from the modest, less than 1% dividends paid quarterly and since I don't know the business issues surrounding these long ago transactions I can't comment on them. But I find it interesting that you had to go back that many years to find examples that prove your point, while I was able to document mine by looking at data from last week. See my post above about Exxon's most recent dividend and the price history around it. You would have made a nice profit if you had followed Burrito Lover's suggestion and waited only a day or two to sell.
sonosoldi3112
Posts: 95
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:40 pm

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by sonosoldi3112 »

Look at NUSI .Nationwide Risk-Managed Income ETF .. I am happy with it this past year ... amazing performance and great sharpe ratio. Lots of articles about it on Fidelity and most likely else where also...

Best of luck
burritoLover
Posts: 368
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:13 pm

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by burritoLover »

Scooter57 wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:39 am There are quite a few investors who report doing exactly what you describe though I wouldn't do it because my state taxes short term gains punitively. Still, it must work enough of the time to be worth it to them or they wouldn't do it. Remember, if you are right 60% of the time, you make money. You would have made money if you traded around Exxon's most recent ex-div date (Nov 10).
The market doesn't operate in a vacuum. If there's a low risk way to make easy money, it will be arbitraged away once investors are aware of it.
Buying on 11/10 and selling on 11/16 you would have made a 5.83% gain. Not too shabby.

So you really should verify check out the things that can be checked out before making claims.
It must be true for all time and for all circumstances because over a 6-day period with one dividend payment, one stock went up! The stock price is fluid - even when the markets are closed. If Exxon closes at $36, then 2 hours after close, its announced that Exxon cooked their books for the last 5 years, no one is going to be able to sell their position anywhere near $36 at open the next day. You picked a week in which the market rotated out of tech and into value stocks which then exploded up in price. You admit that the dividend effect is noticeable in funds/ETF but your reasoning is that you don't see it some individual stocks you looked up, so it much be false. You may want to google "confirmation bias".
But this is beside the point, because you are talking about day trading and most people buying dividend stocks are buying them as a buy and hold investment, not a day trading opportunity. And the point I was making is that theoretical dogma derived from aggregated data doesn't necessarily apply to individual stocks.
I can buy and sell Exxon with this next-day strategy over the next 4 dividend payments and make a sweet 9% annual return according to your logic (or whatever this yield shakes out to be over a 1 year period). I only have to hold the stock for a smattering of days in the entire year to do that. That isn't day trading. I've made 4 transactions the entire year and I've got a sweet return to show for it, according to how you think the markets work.

I'm bowing out here. Have a good one! I truly hope you are successful in whatever investing you partake. :sharebeer
"Your money is like a bar of soap. The more you handle it, the less you’ll have." - Gene Fama
Da5id
Posts: 2227
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:20 am

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by Da5id »

burritoLover wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:49 am
Scooter57 wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:39 am There are quite a few investors who report doing exactly what you describe though I wouldn't do it because my state taxes short term gains punitively. Still, it must work enough of the time to be worth it to them or they wouldn't do it. Remember, if you are right 60% of the time, you make money. You would have made money if you traded around Exxon's most recent ex-div date (Nov 10).
The market doesn't operate in a vacuum. If there's a low risk way to make easy money, it will be arbitraged away once investors are aware of it.
Surely this. Any trivially automatable strategy with a safe positive return will be arbitraged away. Any such strategy that is widely known/discussed can't really persist even if it once worked.
Last edited by Da5id on Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
rgs92
Posts: 2805
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:00 pm

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by rgs92 »

Well, you could just buy VXUS for a yield of 2.6%. (Vang. total international stock market ETF).

It's both part of the 3-fund-portfolio (basically a hold-forever investment), and you can just use the dividends for spending, which I assume is the main goal of a "Searching for Yield" investment vehicle (the title of this thread).

Bonus benefit (I think): in taxable accounts, you get a nice low tax rate, giving it a further advantage over a CD or money market fund.
(Please correct me if I'm wrong on that.)

You get nice yield and avoid stock-picking risk, timing risk, and over the long term you have a high probability of capital appreciation.
Just segregate a lump of VXUS into a virtual yield-generating fund and never sell. Ignore the value of holdings.
rgs92
Posts: 2805
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:00 pm

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by rgs92 »

And just one more point.
You have to ask yourself, what is the purpose of yield?
If it's for regular income, that makes sense. But if it's for a part of a portfolio, that does not, only total return does.
All you really want for the safe part of your portfolio is low-volatility, as a parking place for re-balancing; a place for stock sales to sit when your allocation gets excessively equity-weighted.
User avatar
22twain
Posts: 2587
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 5:42 pm

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by 22twain »

Carol88888 wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:19 am I have added a slug of VYM to my otherwise indexed portfolio for the need for some yield. My thought was that this fund could give more yield than any bond fund (except maybe high yield) and that the returns would be approximately the same as the S&P 500 - or a little less.
You probably would have been better off using plain old VTI (Total Stock Market) instead, taking whatever dividends it produces, and selling shares as necessary to make up the difference. Here's a Morningstar growth chart that compares the total return (with dividends invested) of VTSAX (the mutual fund equivalent of VTI) and VHYAX (the mutual fund equivalent of VYM):

VHYAX (blue) versus VTSAX (orange)

You can change the starting and ending dates by entering new ones just above the left side of the chart.
Help save endangered words! When you write "princiPLE", make sure you don't really mean "princiPAL"!
User avatar
Schlabba
Posts: 645
Joined: Sat May 11, 2019 9:14 am
Location: Netherlands

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by Schlabba »

22twain wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:36 pm
Carol88888 wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:19 am I have added a slug of VYM to my otherwise indexed portfolio for the need for some yield. My thought was that this fund could give more yield than any bond fund (except maybe high yield) and that the returns would be approximately the same as the S&P 500 - or a little less.
You probably would have been better off using plain old VTI (Total Stock Market) instead, taking whatever dividends it produces, and selling shares as necessary to make up the difference. Here's a Morningstar growth chart that compares the total return (with dividends invested) of VTSAX (the mutual fund equivalent of VTI) and VHYAX (the mutual fund equivalent of VYM):

VHYAX (blue) versus VTSAX (orange)

You can change the starting and ending dates by entering new ones just above the left side of the chart.
The returns will be more or less the same. There is usually a value tilt in dividend yield funds so if you believe in factor investing you could say it will outperform. This last decade everything underperformed big tech stocks, but that won't last forever.
Carol88888
Posts: 324
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:24 am

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by Carol88888 »

You are right that VTI will beat VYM as to total return. But investing is not always rational and the behavioral aspect to it sometimes has to be given weight.

I know myself and I would prefer to live off dividends and never have to sell a single share. This way I skit the problem of deciding when to sell and how much and the attendant regret that could arise from poorly timing those sales.

So the amount (rather small ) I have invested in VYM will not be not be my best performer but if it allows me to stay fully invested, then it has served its purpose and it was worth it.
ValueInvestor99
Posts: 65
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:25 pm

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by ValueInvestor99 »

I like the ETF BIZD or the stocks that are included. High yield with low P/E.
FineOne
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:59 pm

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by FineOne »

hudson wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:04 am
FineOne wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:02 pm I would do none of the above. I would buy PSLDX if I wanted higher yield/return.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=305950
PSLDX PIMCO StocksPLUS Long Duration Fund Institutional Class (PSLDX)

1.01% Expense Ratio
40% Stocks, 51% Bonds
Portfolio/Holdings: https://www.schwab.com/public/schwab/in ... ol%3DPSLDX
SEC 2.13%
TTM 6.74%
Effective Duration of Bonds 16 years
Should add an average 10 year return of 20%.

Someone said higher risk. Definitely some tax and expense risk. If you hold it put it in a tax-advantaged account.

Otherwise it behaves like the sp500 so treat it as 100% stocks even if it holds bonds.
User avatar
Stinky
Posts: 5840
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:38 am
Location: Sweet Home Alabama

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by Stinky »

hudson wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:04 am
FineOne wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:02 pm I would do none of the above. I would buy PSLDX if I wanted higher yield/return.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=305950
PSLDX PIMCO StocksPLUS Long Duration Fund Institutional Class (PSLDX)

1.01% Expense Ratio
40% Stocks, 51% Bonds
Portfolio/Holdings: https://www.schwab.com/public/schwab/in ... ol%3DPSLDX
SEC 2.13%
TTM 6.74%
Effective Duration of Bonds 16 years
1.01% expense ratio?

Not very Boglehead-friendly.
It's a GREAT day to be alive - Travis Tritt
Scooter57
Posts: 1543
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:20 am

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by Scooter57 »

Da5id wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:05 am
burritoLover wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:49 am
Scooter57 wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:39 am There are quite a few investors who report doing exactly what you describe though I wouldn't do it because my state taxes short term gains punitively. Still, it must work enough of the time to be worth it to them or they wouldn't do it. Remember, if you are right 60% of the time, you make money. You would have made money if you traded around Exxon's most recent ex-div date (Nov 10).
The market doesn't operate in a vacuum. If there's a low risk way to make easy money, it will be arbitraged away once investors are aware of it.
Surely this. Any trivially automatable strategy with a safe positive return will be arbitraged away. Any such strategy that is widely known/discussed can't really persist even if it once worked.
If implemented by software and applied accros the board, no. But there are people who have a knack for knowing when to make that kind of play and they do make money. I'm not one who does, and I don't attempt to time the market, but I have seen people with an uncanny knack for making more good trades than bad.

The oft repeated claim that everything is arbitraged away suggests that no one makes money on the market. But some individual investors do.

What data we see cited to prove your point is about fund managers' long term success. They face far more constraints than individuals and have to be in the market all the time.

Really, it is very silly how emotionally some Bogleheads respond to the idea that investing with dividends playing a part in your choice of stocks is a reasonable approach. It isn't like spending $100 a week buying scratch tickets.
Da5id
Posts: 2227
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:20 am

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by Da5id »

Scooter57 wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:17 pm If implemented by software and applied accros the board, no. But there are people who have a knack for knowing when to make that kind of play and they do make money. I'm not one who does, and I don't attempt to time the market, but I have seen people with an uncanny knack for making more good trades than bad.
Evidence? Who are these people? Color me dubious that it works, I'd want to see actual evidence before I was convinced that such a simple strategy worked.

As to dividends being good or bad, I'm indifferent in non-taxable, I'd prefer not in taxable. But don't care enough about it to avoid them in taxable.
Scooter57
Posts: 1543
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:20 am

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by Scooter57 »

Da5id wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:20 pm
Scooter57 wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:17 pm If implemented by software and applied accros the board, no. But there are people who have a knack for knowing when to make that kind of play and they do make money. I'm not one who does, and I don't attempt to time the market, but I have seen people with an uncanny knack for making more good trades than bad.
Evidence? Who are these people? Color me dubious that it works, I'd want to see actual evidence before I was convinced that such a simple strategy worked.
If you really don't think there are people making money in the market no one will convince you otherwise.

I have known a few personally, and received a surprise inheritance from a relative who had been buying individual stocks since the 1960s. That was their hobby which they kept very quiet about (as was the habit in those days) and they were good at it. There are occasional stories in our small town newspaper about people with very modest jobs who leave surprising amounts of money to the public library or hospital that they made in the market. We knew a house painter who fell into that category some years ago. These are not day traders but investors. They put a lot of time into learning how to invest and don't do the stupid risky things Bogleheads seem to assume everyone but themselves are doing.
Da5id
Posts: 2227
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:20 am

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by Da5id »

Scooter57 wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:26 pm
Da5id wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:20 pm
Scooter57 wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:17 pm If implemented by software and applied accros the board, no. But there are people who have a knack for knowing when to make that kind of play and they do make money. I'm not one who does, and I don't attempt to time the market, but I have seen people with an uncanny knack for making more good trades than bad.
Evidence? Who are these people? Color me dubious that it works, I'd want to see actual evidence before I was convinced that such a simple strategy worked.
If you really don't think there are people making money in the market no one will convince you otherwise.
Meh. I think people with a diversified portfolio who beat the market after expenses in the long haul based on hobbyist research are few and far between. People who are heavy in single stocks of course can beat the market.
User avatar
Rick Ferri
Posts: 9233
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:40 am
Location: Georgetown, TX. Twitter: @Rick_Ferri
Contact:

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by Rick Ferri »

abuss368 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:53 pm
Rowan Oak wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:53 pm
abuss368 wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:16 am Rick Ferri is the only advisor that I am aware of on the forum you historically recommended a 20% of bonds to High Yield. That has been a number of years so I am unsure if Rick currently recommends that or has simplified.
His current recommendations are on his website: https://core-4.com/portfolios/
Rick at one time recommended many more parts in a portfolio. The bond recommendations as 60% Total Bond, 20% High Yield Junk Bonds, and 20% TIPS. I am not sure if he has simplified this since that time.
I am still recommending this portfolio: 60% BND, 20% VTIP, 20% VWEAX (or SHYG)

Rick Ferri
The Education of an Index Investor: born in darkness, finds indexing enlightenment, overcomplicates everything, embraces simplicity.
User avatar
22twain
Posts: 2587
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 5:42 pm

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by 22twain »

Scooter57 wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:17 pmBut there are people who have a knack for knowing when to make that kind of play and they do make money.
How does one distinguish "knack" from "luck"?
Help save endangered words! When you write "princiPLE", make sure you don't really mean "princiPAL"!
Scooter57
Posts: 1543
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:20 am

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by Scooter57 »

22twain wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:44 am
Scooter57 wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:17 pmBut there are people who have a knack for knowing when to make that kind of play and they do make money.
How does one distinguish "knack" from "luck"?
By their long term performance. People don't get lucky for 20 years.

Again, the performance of fund managers is constrained by having a great deal of money they have to invest with that amount growing to unwieldy amounts the more successful they are, having to stay invested according to a set style because that is the fund's mandate, having to deal with a flood of withdrawals during down markets and the like.

That is why successful funds often close, because the managers know they can't maintain their records with the amount of money they are investing. But they usually close past the point where they realize that because fund companies don't want to shut funds that are collecting AUM.

An individual is a lot freer. My hundred share trades--or news about my trades--isn't going to move the stock price against me the way multiple ten thousand share trades (broken into smaller batches of course, but still a continual flow) could. Retirees buying and selling around carefully chosen dividends in tax advantaged retirement accounts probably can make some money. A fund manager trying to do that would have to do it on a scale that would make it fail.

I don't argue that it takes a lot of work to do well as an investor and it certainly isn't something I can do well enough to risk much money at it. But it is an oft-repeated dogma here that no one can succeed at investing except if they buy index funds and that simply isn't true. Investing in an broad market index fund is the safest way for most people to invest, particularly those who are busy doing other things. But to extend that to claim that no one can outperform is just plain wrong.
User avatar
Topic Author
abuss368
Posts: 22030
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Where the water is warm, the drinks are cold, and I don't know the names of the players!
Contact:

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by abuss368 »

Rick Ferri wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:13 pm
abuss368 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:53 pm
Rowan Oak wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:53 pm
abuss368 wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:16 am Rick Ferri is the only advisor that I am aware of on the forum you historically recommended a 20% of bonds to High Yield. That has been a number of years so I am unsure if Rick currently recommends that or has simplified.
His current recommendations are on his website: https://core-4.com/portfolios/
Rick at one time recommended many more parts in a portfolio. The bond recommendations as 60% Total Bond, 20% High Yield Junk Bonds, and 20% TIPS. I am not sure if he has simplified this since that time.
I am still recommending this portfolio: 60% BND, 20% VTIP, 20% VWEAX (or SHYG)

Rick Ferri
Thanks Rick. Interesting in terms of the Short Term TIPS index fund. I believe many years ago you had preferred and recommended the Vanguard Intermediate TIPS fund. Are you thinking the Short Term TIPS fund aligns better with unexpected inflation as noted in Vanguard’s research?
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
User avatar
Rick Ferri
Posts: 9233
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:40 am
Location: Georgetown, TX. Twitter: @Rick_Ferri
Contact:

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by Rick Ferri »

abuss368 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:15 am
Rick Ferri wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:13 pm
abuss368 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:53 pm
Rowan Oak wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:53 pm
abuss368 wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:16 am Rick Ferri is the only advisor that I am aware of on the forum you historically recommended a 20% of bonds to High Yield. That has been a number of years so I am unsure if Rick currently recommends that or has simplified.
His current recommendations are on his website: https://core-4.com/portfolios/
Rick at one time recommended many more parts in a portfolio. The bond recommendations as 60% Total Bond, 20% High Yield Junk Bonds, and 20% TIPS. I am not sure if he has simplified this since that time.
I am still recommending this portfolio: 60% BND, 20% VTIP, 20% VWEAX (or SHYG)

Rick Ferri
Thanks Rick. Interesting in terms of the Short Term TIPS index fund. I believe many years ago you had preferred and recommended the Vanguard Intermediate TIPS fund. Are you thinking the Short Term TIPS fund aligns better with unexpected inflation as noted in Vanguard’s research?
That is correct.

Rick
The Education of an Index Investor: born in darkness, finds indexing enlightenment, overcomplicates everything, embraces simplicity.
User avatar
Topic Author
abuss368
Posts: 22030
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Where the water is warm, the drinks are cold, and I don't know the names of the players!
Contact:

Re: Starved & Searching for Yield???

Post by abuss368 »

Rick Ferri wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:02 pm
abuss368 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:15 am
Rick Ferri wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:13 pm
abuss368 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:53 pm
Rowan Oak wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:53 pm

His current recommendations are on his website: https://core-4.com/portfolios/
Rick at one time recommended many more parts in a portfolio. The bond recommendations as 60% Total Bond, 20% High Yield Junk Bonds, and 20% TIPS. I am not sure if he has simplified this since that time.
I am still recommending this portfolio: 60% BND, 20% VTIP, 20% VWEAX (or SHYG)

Rick Ferri
Thanks Rick. Interesting in terms of the Short Term TIPS index fund. I believe many years ago you had preferred and recommended the Vanguard Intermediate TIPS fund. Are you thinking the Short Term TIPS fund aligns better with unexpected inflation as noted in Vanguard’s research?
That is correct.

Rick
Awesome! That kind you for that clarification.
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
Post Reply