PC Build Thread 2020

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palanzo
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by palanzo »

LadyGeek wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 9:13 am ^^^ This is for my current desktop - the Lenovo small form factor PC that I'm looking to replace. It has a 210 W PSU and wasn't designed for 100% loading.

Actually, I was considering liquid cooling for my new build. Fan noise is a big deal for me, so anything I can do to reduce that would be helpful.
If you aren't aware of this site it would be worth perusing.

https://silentpcreview.com

Fan noise is also a big deal for me and I have always built quiet computers.
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Independent George
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by Independent George »

LadyGeek wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:31 pm I haven't committed to anything, but it's an option to explore. I'll pick my CPU first, then see which option (air or water) gives me a quiet environment. Cost and complexity will be considered.
This video from Gamers Nexus is probably the best examination of the tradeoffs between air vs liquid cooling I've seen. Short version: liquid coolers with 280mm (2x140) or 360mm (3x120 radiators will be either a little bit cooler (4 degrees C) than the best air coolers (Noctua NHD-15) at a given noise level, or slightly quieter at the same temp level. A 240mm radiator (2x120) is roughly equivalent to the large air cooler. The tradeoff is generally greater cost, complexity, and maintenance in liquid cooled rigs, but the best air coolers tend to be gigantic and might have problems with RAM or GPU clearance. Liquid coolers are not completely silent (they still need fans blowing across the radiator, and the pumps also make noise), but the greater heat capacity of the liquid means you can dial the fans down to lower rpm than an air cooler. Ultimately, it all comes down to user preference.

Also, the Corsair A500 liquid cooler is absolutely terrible due to poor manufacturing of the cold plate, and Enermax is just terrible and should be avoided in general.

I bought a Noctua NH-U12A for my new PC, and don't expect to need anything more than that. That said, I think I do want to build a custom water cooling rig someday because it sounds like a fun project, even if I don't actually need the performance.
Last edited by Independent George on Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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LadyGeek
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by LadyGeek »

^^^ Good info, thanks!
palanzo wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:52 pm If you aren't aware of this site it would be worth perusing.

https://silentpcreview.com

Fan noise is also a big deal for me and I have always built quiet computers.
That helps, thanks!

My "other" hobby is high-def home theater. The first thing you do is consider the environment - room size, lighting, and ambient sound. Then, you place the display and speakers to work within the environment.

This forthcoming build will be a tower case placed in an old oak computer desk storage bay. Here's the general idea: Sauder Cannery Bridge Contemporary Computer Desk This is not what I have (it's larger and high quality), but the idea is that the thermal environment will be inside a larger enclosure.

The desk's storage bay (for lack of a better term) is much wider than the example and has a top-bottom rear opening that will allow for adequate ventilation. It's currently housing my Linux PC in a vertical configuration. (The desktop can go horizontal or vertical.) I keep the door front open to ensure good airflow.

I expect some sound damping due to the enclosure, but I still want to get it as quiet as possible.
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palanzo
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by palanzo »

LadyGeek wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:23 pm ^^^ Good info, thanks!
palanzo wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:52 pm If you aren't aware of this site it would be worth perusing.

https://silentpcreview.com

Fan noise is also a big deal for me and I have always built quiet computers.
That helps, thanks!

My "other" hobby is high-def home theater. The first thing you do is consider the environment - room size, lighting, and ambient sound. Then, you place the display and speakers to work within the environment.

This forthcoming build will be a tower case placed in an old oak computer desk storage bay. Here's the general idea: Sauder Cannery Bridge Contemporary Computer Desk This is not what I have (it's larger and high quality), but the idea is that the thermal environment will be inside a larger enclosure.

The desk's storage bay (for lack of a better term) is much wider than the example and has a top-bottom rear opening that will allow for adequate ventilation. It's currently housing my Linux PC in a vertical configuration. (The desktop can go horizontal or vertical.) I keep the door front open to ensure good airflow.

I expect some sound damping due to the enclosure, but I still want to get it as quiet as possible.
You may get a quieter build if you leave the tower outside. Something to experiment with.

There are also several companies building silent PCs. Might be worth looking at their offerings even if you re building you own.

https://silentpc.com

This company has been around for a while and has some useful resources. Searching for "silent pc" will yield others if you are interested.
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tuningfork
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by tuningfork »

If you go with liquid cooling, make sure the case you buy has space for the radiator. Case reviews on gaming sites usually will mention where radiators can fit, and some cases may include that info in their specs. The PC I'm using now, built 6 years ago, has a Kraken X61 liquid cooler. It has two big fans on the radiator which run at low RPMs. Happy with the cooling and noise compared to previous PCs with high end air coolers.
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by Rowan Oak »

LadyGeek wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:57 pm Core Temp*

* Spam alert - When installing, uncheck the box that asks if you want "additional icons". This is a known issue - it will install unwanted software. Also, don't click on the "Check for driver updates" link in the UI. It was blocked by my browser's ad blocker.
I ran into this years ago with CoreTemp, but if you look under the large "Download" link you will see in smaller letters "more downloads" then choose "Download the standalone version of Core Temp: 32 Bit 64 Bit". This is the portable version of the software and therefore doesn’t use an installer.

note: I would always scan (with Microsoft Defender Antivirus if using Windows 10) the zip file before unzipping and double clicking/running the executable file for any portable program.
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Independent George
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by Independent George »

This is from a Newegg third party seller, but it is over $100 off the Amazon price:

Western Digital WD BLACK SN750 NVMe M.2 2280 2TB - $195 with shipping.

That's a steal, except the seller reviews are rather terrible. The goods are apparently fine, but they are very slow in shipping - but I'm really not in any hurry. Huh. I don't like to reward bad practices, but that is an insanely good deal...

ETA: I just submitted my order - $205 including tax & shipping. The estimated arrival is between Sep 29 and Oct 6, so we'll see how it goes.
Last edited by Independent George on Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
lazydavid
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by lazydavid »

Independent George wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:00 pm This is from a Newegg third party seller, but it is over $100 off the Amazon price:

Western Digital WD BLACK SN750 NVMe M.2 2280 2TB - $195 with shipping.

That's a steal, except the seller reviews are rather terrible. The goods are apparently fine, but they are very slow in shipping - but I'm really not in any hurry. Huh. I don't like to reward bad practices, but that is an insanely good deal...
I'd probably pony up the extra $43 to get the equivalently-performing AData from Amazon tomorrow. It's $236 after coupon with free shipping, vs. $193 including shipping for the WD.

If the seller is horrible about shipping, you might be stuck if you wound up with a bad one.
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LadyGeek
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by LadyGeek »

Independent George - Check the serial number before you open the box.

You may be taking a gamble with the warranty. Why? According to the website reviews, the products are "out of region", meaning you have no warranty. Search the Newegg profile review for "warranty".

The WD terms are here: Warranty Policy
No warranty service is provided unless the Product is returned to an authorized return center in the region (warranty regions are identified as Canada, U.S.A., Latin America, Europe, Middle East, Africa, Asia Pacific, India and Thailand) where the Product was first shipped by WD, which may have regional specific warranty implications.
Newegg is a an online store listed in the Western Digital Store and Deal Targets is a reseller, but that doesn't matter if the product itself originates outside the US.

I was burned on a gray market SSD. At the time, I didn't realize it wasn't under warranty (reseller not authorized). Never again.
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Independent George
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by Independent George »

LadyGeek wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:27 pm Independent George - Check the serial number before you open the box.

You may be taking a gamble with the warranty. Why? According to the website reviews, the products are "out of region", meaning you have no warranty. Search the Newegg profile review for "warranty".

The WD terms are here: Warranty Policy
No warranty service is provided unless the Product is returned to an authorized return center in the region (warranty regions are identified as Canada, U.S.A., Latin America, Europe, Middle East, Africa, Asia Pacific, India and Thailand) where the Product was first shipped by WD, which may have regional specific warranty implications.
Newegg is a an online store listed in the Western Digital Store and Deal Targets is a reseller, but that doesn't matter if the product itself originates outside the US.

I was burned on a gray market SSD. At the time, I didn't realize it wasn't under warranty (reseller not authorized). Never again.
Good call on the warranty info; that's the primary reason I was interested in the WD drive in the first place. I requested an order cancellation; hopefully that goes through. Otherwise, I guess I'll be living dangerously on this one.
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by LadyGeek »

I don't see why there should be a problem with the cancellation. If you don't see anything within the next day or so, escalate.

Save a copy of your cancellation request, i.e. browser screenshot. You'll have documentation that the cancellation was made before the product shipped. If the SSD somehow arrives on your doorstep, return it.

My experience with a failed SSD caused me a lot of grief to find, as it was reminiscent of the same problems with a failing HDD.

For me, Windows attempts to save swap space to the SDD was failing. Blue screens of death at random times for random applications. At first, one every few days. Several weeks later, several times a day. I tried everything imaginable to find it, including replacement of the power supply. By process of elimination, must be the SSD. Not fun.
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dwc13
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by dwc13 »

Mudpuppy wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:14 pm
dwc13 wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:07 am This evening I received an email from Dell -- curiously sent Saturday evening -- informing me of a delay in delivery of a monitor I had ordered in late August. The website listing had indicated a delivery date by September 22 (2020). I decided I could wait a few weeks for delivery and therefore didn't buy a different monitor another vendor. After I placed the order, I received an email from Dell confirming the monitor would be delivered by September 22, 2020.

The revised delivery date is now December 29, 2020. LMAO, Dell wouldn't even commit to making the cut-off for Christmas.
It's not just a supply chain issue. It's also a horrible time of year to try to buy from a vendor who has extensive government contracts. July 1st is the new fiscal year for many state agencies. Late August / early September is the start of many schools and universities. October 1st is the start of the federal fiscal year. Right about now, they're getting a good idea of what those entities will be purchasing through either already submitted POs or sales quotes. All of those entities are going to be prioritized over a private consumer buying a single monitor.

And the time thing is likely just a time zone thing. I wouldn't be surprised if Dell is sending their emails time stamped with UTC and your email client isn't properly translating that to local time. If you see something like -0000 at the end of the date/time stamp, that means it's the UTC time zone. If something was sent at 8pm UTC time, that would be 1pm Pacific Daylight Time.
This is a probably a supply chain problem to some extent, but the situation has almost certainly been exacerbated by Dell not being upfront with delivery dates. I had ordered a S2721DGF, which is a Dell gaming monitor (perhaps an oxymoron, but go with it). Government agencies aren't buying this FreeSync Premium Pro -- and also G-SYNC compatible -- 165Hz QHD IPS monitor from Dell en masse. Run-of-the-mill Dell monitors, perhaps. But not this model. At least Dell has *finally* noted on its website that this item is temporarily out of stock and cannot be ordered at this time.

As for a possible discrepancy with Coordinated Universal Time (UTC), that didn't happen. I had looked at the timestamp (received 17:06 -0500) on the email before my earlier post. Just for the heck of it, I checked the raw data to see if it had been held up by some other server. Nope. The email was sent from Dell's server Saturday evening at 22:06 +0000.
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by deskjockey »

dwc13 wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:07 am This evening I received an email from Dell -- curiously sent Saturday evening -- informing me of a delay in delivery of a monitor I had ordered in late August. The website listing had indicated a delivery date by September 22 (2020). I decided I could wait a few weeks for delivery and therefore didn't buy a different monitor another vendor. After I placed the order, I received an email from Dell confirming the monitor would be delivered by September 22, 2020.

The revised delivery date is now December 29, 2020. LMAO, Dell wouldn't even commit to making the cut-off for Christmas.
Now you've got me worried--I seriously entertained the idea of building my own PC a few weeks ago, but decided to go with a Dell G5 5000 instead (i7-10700F, RTX 2060, 16 GB, 500GB SSD) for convenience and because Dell is running a very good sale right now (17% off) that made it cheaper than an equivalent build. My PC in theory arrives October 9th, but your experience is not encouraging. Fingers crossed.
d18lover
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by d18lover »

deskjockey wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:14 pm
dwc13 wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:07 am This evening I received an email from Dell -- curiously sent Saturday evening -- informing me of a delay in delivery of a monitor I had ordered in late August. The website listing had indicated a delivery date by September 22 (2020). I decided I could wait a few weeks for delivery and therefore didn't buy a different monitor another vendor. After I placed the order, I received an email from Dell confirming the monitor would be delivered by September 22, 2020.

The revised delivery date is now December 29, 2020. LMAO, Dell wouldn't even commit to making the cut-off for Christmas.
Now you've got me worried--I seriously entertained the idea of building my own PC a few weeks ago, but decided to go with a Dell G5 5000 instead (i7-10700F, RTX 2060, 16 GB, 500GB SSD) for convenience and because Dell is running a very good sale right now (17% off) that made it cheaper than an equivalent build. My PC in theory arrives October 9th, but your experience is not encouraging. Fingers crossed.
I would implore you to research the thermals on that Dell G5 before the return period ends. I returned a G5.

From the data I've gathered, it's a little furnace.

Of the big laptop companies, HP Omen 2020 models are the least hot, followed by the Legion 5 2020 models. Dell runs very hot.
deskjockey
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by deskjockey »

d18lover wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:29 pm
deskjockey wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:14 pm
dwc13 wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:07 am This evening I received an email from Dell -- curiously sent Saturday evening -- informing me of a delay in delivery of a monitor I had ordered in late August. The website listing had indicated a delivery date by September 22 (2020). I decided I could wait a few weeks for delivery and therefore didn't buy a different monitor another vendor. After I placed the order, I received an email from Dell confirming the monitor would be delivered by September 22, 2020.

The revised delivery date is now December 29, 2020. LMAO, Dell wouldn't even commit to making the cut-off for Christmas.
Now you've got me worried--I seriously entertained the idea of building my own PC a few weeks ago, but decided to go with a Dell G5 5000 instead (i7-10700F, RTX 2060, 16 GB, 500GB SSD) for convenience and because Dell is running a very good sale right now (17% off) that made it cheaper than an equivalent build. My PC in theory arrives October 9th, but your experience is not encouraging. Fingers crossed.
I would implore you to research the thermals on that Dell G5 before the return period ends. I returned a G5.

From the data I've gathered, it's a little furnace.

Of the big laptop companies, HP Omen 2020 models are the least hot, followed by the Legion 5 2020 models. Dell runs very hot.
Thanks, but I got the desktop G5, not the laptop (Dell really needs better a better naming system, frankly). That said, the desktop G5 also runs hot with the stock CPU cooler and case fan, so I may need to swap those out. Even factoring in that extra cost, it still comes out cheaper than an equivalent build. Not by much, but a couple of hundred or so.

I'll run it for a few weeks with the stock cooler and fan and see what temps I get. I don't game (I used to, back in the Pleistocene), but I do put some stress on my machines with other, much more boring, stuff like video and image editing. If the temps are fine, I'll leave it alone. If not, I get to dip my toes into the world of building a PC for the first time. So a win-win, I think. That, of course, assumes that the dang thing arrives on time.
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by mxs »

My experience has been that video cards prices get out of whack from mining, but most other components are pretty stable. I suggest if the video card you want is at an inflated price make a substitution for now and revisit it down the road if you think it is really needed. Occasionally a new memory format comes out and the prices can be out of hand, but that gets normalized quickly. I have a pretty old i5-3570k with a decent air cooler but I never tinkered with the overclock much. In hindsight I would have been better off without a unlocked cpu but it was an experience putting the paste and hsf on.

Great Graphics Card info here...
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gp ... ,4388.html
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by LadyGeek »

Good timing, as I just decided to start my new build. There's no point to force my Win 10 Lenovo to failure by overheating simply because it's an "extra" PC. The SSD and HD drives (1 each) will be transferred to the new build.

My first choice is CPU. Here's a really good article: AMD vs Intel 2020: Who Makes the Best CPUs? | Tom's Hardware

I've always owned Intel (except once a very long time ago) and was very surprised to see Intel has fallen behind AMD. I was disappointed to read about Intel's insufficient stock coolers, for example. The article explains why I'm seeing a lot of new builds choose AMD and I may go this route as well.

To complement mxs' article, here's the CPU rankings: CPU Benchmark Hierarchy 2020: Intel and AMD Processors Ranked
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dwc13
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by dwc13 »

LadyGeek wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:25 am Good timing, as I just decided to start my new build. There's no point to force my Win 10 Lenovo to failure by overheating simply because it's an "extra" PC. The SSD and HD drives (1 each) will be transferred to the new build.

My first choice is CPU. Here's a really good article: AMD vs Intel 2020: Who Makes the Best CPUs? | Tom's Hardware

I've always owned Intel (except once a very long time ago) and was very surprised to see Intel has fallen behind AMD. I was disappointed to read about Intel's insufficient stock coolers, for example. The article explains why I'm seeing a lot of new builds choose AMD and I may go this route as well.

To complement mxs' article, here's the CPU rankings: CPU Benchmark Hierarchy 2020: Intel and AMD Processors Ranked
Over the years I've built and bought computers with CPUs from both Intel and AMD. Fairly evenly split between the companies. I have built more PCs using AMD CPUs, while Intel CPUs have been in more purchased computers. It was a very easy decision for me to go with AMD for this current build. The AM4 X570 motherboard will support Zen 3 and PCIe Gen 4 (with a CPU that also supports), so there is a relatively easy CPU upgrade path down the road if I'm so inclined. I'm not a hardcore gamer, so top FPS doesn't come into play. However, multi-tasking on a computer -- a few spreadsheets and other applications & documents (or web pages) open, along with periodic WebEx and VoIP (softphone) calls, streaming music -- lots of people fit that usage profile.
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by grettman »

Hopefully this is message isn't considered "hijacking" a thread. I am building TWO gaming machines. One for each of my boys. The case I selected only have two fans and I am concerned about heat management. Generally speaking, what is an acceptable temperature inside a computer case? Any advice on heat management?
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by LadyGeek »

Not a problem, this is a general thread for anyone building a PC.

It's not so much the case temperature, but the temperature in the CPU, graphics card, and power supply. Each of those is regulated based on their individual loading. The sum of which is dumped into the case.

For heat management, you need to consider the total environment. Basically, you need to get the heat generated out of the case as efficiently as possible. Ideally, the PC's location should be cool (room temperature) with sufficient airflow to remove the heat generated by the PC.

For example - On top of a desk, or on the floor in the living room would be fine. Inside a computer desk with the door closed would not.

The trick is to balance speed vs. heat. Faster PCs means more heat. Are you concerned that you may have stuffed more horsepower in a case that can't handle the load? If so, post your configuration and we can review it.

(FYI - I'll be posting my build configuration later today.)
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by random_walker_77 »

grettman wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:19 am Hopefully this is message isn't considered "hijacking" a thread. I am building TWO gaming machines. One for each of my boys. The case I selected only have two fans and I am concerned about heat management. Generally speaking, what is an acceptable temperature inside a computer case? Any advice on heat management?
I'm not sure what's typical, but I can tell you this. Many years ago, I worked at a company that built components for PCs. The desktop products would be open-case and in a temperature chamber at 55C for high-temp functional testing, and 0C for low-temp testing.

Definitely keep your case temp below 50C.

Also note that high temp is how we do accelerated lifetime testing. Companies want to know that their products will last longer than the warranty or whatever is deemed "long enough." In an industry where products can be obsolete in 12 months, you can't spend 2 years waiting for lifetime reliability tests. But the lifetime of components predictably decreases exponentially with increasing temperature. So you can test the product in an oven for a couple of weeks and extrapolate your long-term failure rates.

In other words, running hot is how you can put a year of wear on your computer in just a matter of weeks. If you want your computer to last, don't let it run too hot.

That said, in true engineering fashion, I can't tell you any useful info on what's a typical case temperature for a contemporary system.
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by Independent George »

Gamers Nexus does extensive thermal testing on PC cases under different configurations. I can't give you an exact temperature number, but their reviews should give you a decent idea of what makes a good case - it's not strictly about the number of fans, but having good, unobstructed airflow between the front panel, the CPU & GPU, and the rear exhaust.
dwc13
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by dwc13 »

deskjockey wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:14 pm
dwc13 wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:07 am This evening I received an email from Dell -- curiously sent Saturday evening -- informing me of a delay in delivery of a monitor I had ordered in late August. The website listing had indicated a delivery date by September 22 (2020). I decided I could wait a few weeks for delivery and therefore didn't buy a different monitor another vendor. After I placed the order, I received an email from Dell confirming the monitor would be delivered by September 22, 2020.

The revised delivery date is now December 29, 2020. LMAO, Dell wouldn't even commit to making the cut-off for Christmas.
Now you've got me worried--I seriously entertained the idea of building my own PC a few weeks ago, but decided to go with a Dell G5 5000 instead (i7-10700F, RTX 2060, 16 GB, 500GB SSD) for convenience and because Dell is running a very good sale right now (17% off) that made it cheaper than an equivalent build. My PC in theory arrives October 9th, but your experience is not encouraging. Fingers crossed.
Hopefully your experience will be different from what happened with my order. In general, 24" & above non-gaming monitors have been selling out at (my) local brick & mortar stores, in large part because so many schools have opted to start the year with classes online. However, desktop PCs and many notebook computers were readily available to purchase. For a while, stock at Micro Center was limited to <24" or niche 4K gaming monitors; Costco had been sold out of monitors that are normally stocked. Given how many people shop online, I wouldn't be surprised if Dell & HP had similar success selling monitors.

Plenty of time remaining for your computer to ship.
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Independent George
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by Independent George »

LadyGeek wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:48 pm I don't see why there should be a problem with the cancellation. If you don't see anything within the next day or so, escalate.

Save a copy of your cancellation request, i.e. browser screenshot. You'll have documentation that the cancellation was made before the product shipped. If the SSD somehow arrives on your doorstep, return it.
Quick update: I just got notification that my RMA has been approved and I'll be refunded in 3-5 days. Unless I see an equally ridiculous deal that is covered by the manufacturer warranty, I'll probably be holding out for a Black Friday/Cyber Monday deals. I really don't need a new SSD, but if the price is right, I'd rather buy it now and assemble it with the new system instead of re-setting my boot drive a year or two from now. If I'm going to be in BIOS anyway to set up the new system, I may as well get it all over with at once.

That reminds me - if I end up just recycling my existing 2.5" SSD, do I need to do a fresh install of Windows, or can I deactivate the key on my old PC, move it to the new motherboard, then re-activate it on the new PC without having to reinstall everything? Or is it better to do a fresh install regardless just to be safe?
dwc13
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by dwc13 »

grettman wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:19 am Hopefully this is message isn't considered "hijacking" a thread. I am building TWO gaming machines. One for each of my boys. The case I selected only have two fans and I am concerned about heat management. Generally speaking, what is an acceptable temperature inside a computer case? Any advice on heat management?
Lucky boys!

For air cooling, placement of case fans (and flow direction) is at least as important as the total number. Cases are designed with exhausting hot air in mind; obviously, some will do it much better than others. Earlier in this thread I posted a link to a really good article on case fans that is worth a read.

The Big Air Cooling Investigation
https://bit-tech.net/reviews/tech/the-b ... igation/1/

Modern CPUs are much better equipped to work under higher temperatures. It is not unusual to have CPU temps reach 80+ C during a long, intense gaming session. However, some of the other components (e.g., motherboard, RAM -- especially if lower quality/not specifically aimed at the gaming market) might not be as tolerant of a higher sustained operating temperature over the long run (whatever that might be in your situation). FWIW, AMD Ryzen 3xxx chips will start to throttle at 95 C (built-in protection), not that you would want temps to reach even close to that level. Running cooler benefits all components.

A few items for your consideration:
1. Don't try and cram too many items into a small(er) case. IMO, impeding airflow can cause more thermal-related problems than anything else, other than a poorly (or non) operating fan.
2. If possible, use a modular power supply so only required power cables are used. Fewer cables to obstruct airflow. Also, make sure the power supply is sufficient

Power Supply Calculator
https://outervision.com/power-supply-calculator

3. Use an SSD rather than a mechanical hard drive. If the motherboard has a slot for an NVMe SSD, even better (no cables required).
4. If overclocking, install a quality after-market CPU cooler.
5. Add additional PWM case fans (if needed) and make sure all are working together. There is often a small arrow on the fan frame indicating airflow direction. The traditional approach is back & top case fans exhaust out, while front and side case fans are intake. The design of the case will largely dictate placement of case fans and airflow direction.
6. Read reviews about motherboard thermals. You don't need top-of-the-line performance but buying a MB that has poor thermals will increase the probability of disappointment sooner than later.
7. A dedicated graphics card adds additional thermal considerations. Some cards/GPUs run hotter and require more power at load. Once installed, set appropriate fan curves using software (e.g., Radeon Software Adrenalin, Nvidia Control Panel, etc.). Your budget and the types of games your sons play will largely dictate what GPU to get.

Have fun with the build. Perhaps your boys can assist and learn a few things along the way (or vice-versa, lol).
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by LadyGeek »

Independent George wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:01 pm That reminds me - if I end up just recycling my existing 2.5" SSD, do I need to do a fresh install of Windows, or can I deactivate the key on my old PC, move it to the new motherboard, then re-activate it on the new PC without having to reinstall everything? Or is it better to do a fresh install regardless just to be safe?
I'm about to hit that speed bump, as I want to use the same boot SDD on my new build.

A quick reference: Can You Move a Windows Installation to Another Computer? (Suggestion: Clean reinstall)

Deactivate your license key first: How to transfer a Windows 10 license to a new PC or hard drive

FYI - Linux loads all of the drivers at boot time. No reinstalls are necessary when moving a drive. (My Linux PC is dual-boot, so I'd still have to reinstall the Win 10 partition.)
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by LadyGeek »

Here's my preliminary build configuration. I made my CPU and GPU choices before I saw what was posted in the thread.
  • CPU - AMD Ryzen 7 3700X
  • Cooling - Noctua NH-U12S AM4
  • GPU - Nvidia GeForce RTX 2060S
  • Motherboard - ASUS AM4 TUF Gaming X570-Plus (Wi-Fi)
  • RAM - G.SKILL Ripjaws V Series 32GB (2 x 16GB) DDR4 3200 3600
  • Case - Fractal Design Meshify C Black ATX Mid Tower
  • PSU - Seasonic FOCUS GX-750, 750W 80+ Gold.
  • Storage (boot drive) - Samsung 970 EVO Plus M.2 PCIe Gen 3.0
  • Storage (not boot) - Reusing SSD, HD. External optical drive
  • Display - Reusing monitor
  • Input devices - Reusing keyboard, mouse
- I used Logical Increments as a starting point, then fine-tuned the selection based on the Tom's Hardware reviews. The build was saved in Newegg's PC builder.

- Cooling - I went with the low noise fan instead of liquid cooling. I've never liked plumbing, so it was an easy choice to go with air cooling. Youtube reviews show that the Noctua has much lower noise and better thermal performance than the stock cooler.

- GPU - There's not much difference between the RTX 2060S and RX 5700XT, so I went for better thermal and lower noise.

- RAM - As noted by dwc13 in this post, it is critical to match your memory to the motherboard chipset and CPU. It turns out that the memory recommended in the Logical Increments build guide used an incorrect part number. They recommended 3600 MHz, but it's not supported by the ASUS motherboard. :shock:

All memory manufacturers have a configuration tool that shows compatible memory. I found the incompatibility by using the G.SKILL RAM Configurator and did not see the recommended part in the search results. Working backwards from the specs, I selected 3200 MHz parts. Why? You are limited by the slowest link in the chain. The CPU supports 3200 MHz memory (also, the motherboard). Going any faster than that won't improve performance. Maybe elsewhere, but I think this is a good guide. I can try overclocking later, but it might get a bit risky.

PSU - This Seasonic model has fully modular cabling - a must-have for me. Also, it couldn't hurt to have a 750 W supply. The 650 W supply was running close and I wanted extra headroom so it would run cooler.

Case - I went with a mid-tower case and checked that it can fit the CPU fan, power supply, and graphics card. I really like the design - it's well-built. I went with the full metal cover, as I don't intend it as a showcase and don't have to worry about breaking glass if anything accidentally bumps into it. The case fans are advertised as "low noise". If it doesn't work out, I can look at alternatives.

Update0: Upgraded memory per comments below.
Update1: Updated storage per comments below.
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by lazydavid »

LadyGeek wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:08 pm - RAM - As noted by dwc13 in this post, it is critical to match your memory to the motherboard chipset and CPU. It turns out that the memory recommended in the Logical Increments build guide used an incorrect part number. They recommended 3600 MHz, but it's not supported by the ASUS motherboard. :shock:

All memory manufacturers have a configuration tool that shows compatible memory. I found the incompatibility by using the G.SKILL RAM Configurator and did not see the recommended part in the search results. Working backwards from the specs, I selected 3200 MHz parts. Why? You are limited by the slowest link in the chain. The CPU supports 3200 MHz memory (also, the motherboard). Going any faster than that won't improve performance. Maybe elsewhere, but I think this is a good guide. I can try overclocking later, but it might get a bit risky.
Hmmm.....I bought this kit, which is essentially the 3600Mhz version of the kit you bought, and it is absolutely on the QVL for your Mobo. I have the exact same motherboard, minus Wifi (didn't need it), and while it's not on the QVL, I assume it's fine since the boards are otherwise identical. And it works perfectly, with the memory configured using DOCP (XMP) and the FCLK set to 1800 (stock is 1600 for my 3600X).

Unless you get really esoteric with your config, you get maximum performance by keeping your memory clock and Infinity Fabric in a 1:1 configuration, up to the limits of what runs stable in your system. Nearly all of the Zen2 CPUs that are rated for 1600 Mhz will run happily at 1800 Mhz forever, which means PC4-3600 RAM is the sweet spot. If for some reason my CPU wasn't happy at 1800, I could always run the ram at 3200 Mhz and just deal with having overpaid by $20 for my memory.
LadyGeek wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:08 pm PSU - This Seasonic model has fully modular cabling - a must-have for me. Also, it couldn't hurt to have a 750 W supply. The 650 W supply was running close and I wanted extra headroom so it would run cooler.
You will be very happy with this choice. Very easy to be penny wise, pound foolish in the PSU arena. I'm re-using an 11-year old Corsair AX750, which is a fully-modular 750w powersupply manufactured by Seasonic. It was very expensive when I initially purchased it, but this is the third machine it's been in.
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by Horsefly »

LadyGeek wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:08 pm Case - I went with a mid-tower case and checked that it can fit the CPU fan, power supply, and graphics card. I really like the design - it's well-built. I went with the full metal cover, as I don't intend it as a showcase and don't have to worry about breaking glass if anything accidentally bumps into it. The case fans are advertised as "low noise". If it doesn't work out, I can look at alternatives.
The build I just did is with that same Meshify C black case, although I went with the dark tempered glass. You will be happy with it. The stock fans are very quiet. I added a PWM (variable speed) fan on the front, so I have three fans instead of the two you have, and I can hardly hear it when I'm sitting next to the machine.
LadyGeek wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:08 pm Storage - Reusing SSD, HD, optical drive (5.25" full height, a spare drive I had lying around)
The board you picked has an M.2 slot. The speed advantage of a good M.2 NVMe SSD over your re-used SSD is incredible. I think you would be happier if you added and M.2 SSD and made that your boot drive.

One question though: The Meshify C - like most modern cases - doesn't have a external 5.25" bay. How do you plan to reuse your existing optical drive?
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by LadyGeek »

First - If I'm wrong on anything, feel free to dig in. I appreciate the feedback.
lazydavid wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:00 pm
LadyGeek wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:08 pm - RAM - As noted by dwc13 in this post, it is critical to match your memory to the motherboard chipset and CPU. It turns out that the memory recommended in the Logical Increments build guide used an incorrect part number. They recommended 3600 MHz, but it's not supported by the ASUS motherboard. :shock:

All memory manufacturers have a configuration tool that shows compatible memory. I found the incompatibility by using the G.SKILL RAM Configurator and did not see the recommended part in the search results. Working backwards from the specs, I selected 3200 MHz parts. Why? You are limited by the slowest link in the chain. The CPU supports 3200 MHz memory (also, the motherboard). Going any faster than that won't improve performance. Maybe elsewhere, but I think this is a good guide. I can try overclocking later, but it might get a bit risky.
Hmmm.....I bought this kit, which is essentially the 3600Mhz version of the kit you bought, and it is absolutely on the QVL for your Mobo. I have the exact same motherboard, minus Wifi (didn't need it), and while it's not on the QVL, I assume it's fine since the boards are otherwise identical. And it works perfectly, with the memory configured using DOCP (XMP) and the FCLK set to 1800 (stock is 1600 for my 3600X).

Unless you get really esoteric with your config, you get maximum performance by keeping your memory clock and Infinity Fabric in a 1:1 configuration, up to the limits of what runs stable in your system. Nearly all of the Zen2 CPUs that are rated for 1600 Mhz will run happily at 1800 Mhz forever, which means PC4-3600 RAM is the sweet spot. If for some reason my CPU wasn't happy at 1800, I could always run the ram at 3200 Mhz and just deal with having overpaid by $20 for my memory.
Here's how I came to that decision - The part number in the Logical Increments current build-guide for the "Excellent" and "Outstanding"configurations show part number F4-3600C19D-16GVRB, which is not in the QVL for the ASUS X570.

I then looked at the ASUS specs. 3600 is not listed. Other frequencies, yes. 3600, No. The fact that 3600 wasn't listed had me wondering if there was something in the board's design that precluded this specific part. Being cautious, I backed down to the guaranteed 3200 spec.

Your suggestion (F4-3600C16D-32GVKC) appears to be a new product. Comments on newegg say it works (so far) with my motherboard at 3600 MHz. Rather than have buyer's remorse over a $31 higher cost, I replaced my RAM selection with your pick. Thanks!

Update: ASUS provides an updated QVL as part of their online documentation. Support --> Driver & Tools --> Qualified Vendor List. The part is listed.
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by LadyGeek »

Horsefly wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:51 pm
LadyGeek wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:08 pm Case - I went with a mid-tower case and checked that it can fit the CPU fan, power supply, and graphics card. I really like the design - it's well-built. I went with the full metal cover, as I don't intend it as a showcase and don't have to worry about breaking glass if anything accidentally bumps into it. The case fans are advertised as "low noise". If it doesn't work out, I can look at alternatives.
The build I just did is with that same Meshify C black case, although I went with the dark tempered glass. You will be happy with it. The stock fans are very quiet. I added a PWM (variable speed) fan on the front, so I have three fans instead of the two you have, and I can hardly hear it when I'm sitting next to the machine.
LadyGeek wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:08 pm Storage - Reusing SSD, HD, optical drive (5.25" full height, a spare drive I had lying around)
The board you picked has an M.2 slot. The speed advantage of a good M.2 NVMe SSD over your re-used SSD is incredible. I think you would be happier if you added and M.2 SSD and made that your boot drive.

One question though: The Meshify C - like most modern cases - doesn't have a external 5.25" bay. How do you plan to reuse your existing optical drive?
Case - That's exactly what I wanted to know, thanks.

M.2 slot - Good point. Since I'll have to do a clean install anyway, I might as well avoid further buyer's remorse. After checking the motherboard specs, I have added the Samsung 970 EVO Plus (M.2 2280 500GB PCIe Gen 3.0 x4, NVMe), $130.

In engineering, this is know as "requirements creep". I list my build configuration, then decide to add a little of this, a little of that. Before I know it, my cost went to $$$. :)

Optical drive - In my many years of building PCs, I've never had a case without front panel access. I never gave it a second thought. :D Thanks, I'll add one after the build is complete. If I need one before that, I have an optical drive on my "other" desktop.
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by grettman »

LadyGeek wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:48 am Not a problem, this is a general thread for anyone building a PC.

It's not so much the case temperature, but the temperature in the CPU, graphics card, and power supply. Each of those is regulated based on their individual loading. The sum of which is dumped into the case.

For heat management, you need to consider the total environment. Basically, you need to get the heat generated out of the case as efficiently as possible. Ideally, the PC's location should be cool (room temperature) with sufficient airflow to remove the heat generated by the PC.

For example - On top of a desk, or on the floor in the living room would be fine. Inside a computer desk with the door closed would not.

The trick is to balance speed vs. heat. Faster PCs means more heat. Are you concerned that you may have stuffed more horsepower in a case that can't handle the load? If so, post your configuration and we can review it.

(FYI - I'll be posting my build configuration later today.)
Well, I haven't built the machine yet. I have selected some parts but don't have all the components. Here is what I have or plan to buy:

NZXT H510i case (have this)
Ryzen 7 3700x (don't have this)
Nvidia 2060 super (or one of the newer cards that will be out soon if available) (don't have this)

I am undecided on a power supply (I looked up the one you have an it seems it is out of production)
I haven't decided on an SSD or memory yet

I'd like to use the stock CPU cooler but not sure if this is a good idea.

Just looking at the case, it seems to get great reviews. I like the cable management and look of the case. My concern is seeing only two fans...

Getting good info from google is hard because much of he advice seems to be from guess work done by kids. I am sure they are good at this but it doesn't instill confidence.
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by LadyGeek »

Your case is getting excellent reviews, so let's look elsewhere.

Start with the same approach as I did. Look for your case in Logical Increments.

Let's first look at your CPU choice. OK, the Ryzen 7 3700X is an awesome CPU, but look where it appears in the list - "Outstanding". Not only is the companion case for this CPU larger, but it also needs a larger power supply.

I'm in this ballpark because I intend to push my PC to the max. It can certainly play games, but I want to do more than that.

So where does your case get used? Back up a bit and find it in the Green section, i.e. "Great" and "Superb".

It's not an arbitrary selection. You have to balance all of the components working together to get you the best overall performance. This includes the video card you have your eyes on. It's what I meant by saying you were trying to stuff more horsepower into a case that can't handle the load.

The build guide has done all of the homework for you.

To make this easy, stick with the components that use the case and you'll be fine. If you want to go outside the color, you need to consider what to give up for the selection. Going with higher performance means more heat, power, and cost. Going with lower performance is cheaper, smaller, cooler - but you won't get the video frame rates.

============
The stock CPU cooler is fine.
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by Independent George »

One thing I would add is that it's probably best to wait a month or so until AMD's next generation of CPUs and GPUs have been released and independently benchmarked before settling on an CPU & GPU. At the very least, you'll have a clearer picture of price to performance, and may even see discounts on the previous gen hardware.
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by dwc13 »

LadyGeek wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:08 pm Here's my preliminary build configuration. I made my CPU and GPU choices before I saw what was posted in the thread.
  • CPU - AMD Ryzen 7 3700X
  • Cooling - Noctua NH-U12S AM4
  • GPU - Nvidia GeForce RTX 2060S
  • Motherboard - ASUS AM4 TUF Gaming X570-Plus (Wi-Fi)
  • RAM - G.SKILL Ripjaws V Series 32GB (2 x 16GB) DDR4 3200 3600
  • Case - Fractal Design Meshify C Black ATX Mid Tower
  • PSU - Seasonic FOCUS GX-750, 750W 80+ Gold.
  • Storage (boot drive) - Samsung 970 EVO Plus M.2 PCIe Gen 3.0
  • Storage (not boot) - Reusing SSD, HD. External optical drive
  • Display - Reusing monitor
  • Input devices - Reusing keyboard, mouse
Your list looks familiar. I had considered several components that you will be using in your build. My first choice PS, the Seasonic FOCUS GX-750, wasn't available from a US seller when I ordered from Newegg. The Meshify C was one of 2 cases I had considered buying before deciding I should finally utilize a case that had been stored unused for more than 10 years. If my wife reads this post, I'm taking credit for helping to de-clutter the basement. The ASUS TUF Gaming X570-Plus (Wi-Fi) was a MB finalist, along with an ASROCK B550 model. ASUS customer service very poorly handled a defective router issue years ago and that factored in my decision to go with an MSI X570 motherboard.

CPU -- AMD Ryzen 7 3700X
CPU Cooler -- Testing out the bundled Wraith Prism for now. Pretty lights (with side panel removed)
Motherboard -- MSI MAG X570 Tomahawk WiFi
Graphics Card -- Got a good deal on a Sapphire Pulse RX 580 8GB. I'm waiting for the anticipated battle between Ampere vs. RDNA 2 cards to play out before upgrading. Not really in any hurry, since the monitor I had ordered is now delayed until December 29.
RAM -- Crucial Ballistix DDR4 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) 3200 MHz
Case -- Antec Three Hundred, which sat unopened since purchased in 2008. Replaced the 2 stock exhaust fans (3 pin)
Case Fans -- All PWM. 2 Corsair ML-120 (front intake), 1 x Corsair ML-120 (rear exhaust), 1 x Corsair ML-140 (top exhaust)
PSU -- Corsair RM750x full modular, 750W 80+ Gold
Boot drive -- WD Black SN750 NVMe M.2 SSD 500 GB
Storage drive -- Currently using a Synology DiskStation 916+. Will probably install another SSD at some point.
Monitor -- Ordered a S2721DGF 27" QHD FreeSync Premium (G-SYNC compatible) 165 Hz IPS gaming monitor from Dell. Still waiting...

Edit: Fixed a couple of typos.
Last edited by dwc13 on Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by grettman »

LadyGeek wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:04 pm Your case is getting excellent reviews, so let's look elsewhere.

Start with the same approach as I did. Look for your case in Logical Increments.

Let's first look at your CPU choice. OK, the Ryzen 7 3700X is an awesome CPU, but look where it appears in the list - "Outstanding". Not only is the companion case for this CPU larger, but it also needs a larger power supply.

I'm in this ballpark because I intend to push my PC to the max. It can certainly play games, but I want to do more than that.

So where does your case get used? Back up a bit and find it in the Green section, i.e. "Great" and "Superb".

It's not an arbitrary selection. You have to balance all of the components working together to get you the best overall performance. This includes the video card you have your eyes on. It's what I meant by saying you were trying to stuff more horsepower into a case that can't handle the load.

The build guide has done all of the homework for you.

To make this easy, stick with the components that use the case and you'll be fine. If you want to go outside the color, you need to consider what to give up for the selection. Going with higher performance means more heat, power, and cost. Going with lower performance is cheaper, smaller, cooler - but you won't get the video frame rates.

============
The stock CPU cooler is fine.
THANKS! This is a cool thread and I am enjoying the use of logical increments. I am going to have more questions as I go through this process.
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by LadyGeek »

^^^ You're welcome. The unspoken part of this process is that you need to plan this out. Not only for the hardware, but the software as well. You'll need an operating system, for example. Are you using one from another hard drive? You'll need to migrate the license (discussed earlier). Or, purchase a new OS key.How are you going to handle backups? That sort of thing.

I've got everything on a spreadsheet. One sheet for hardware, one sheet for my migration plan. For example: Deactivation of license keys, reinstall and activate on the new PC, Office 2016 reinstall, Malware Bytes, backup scripts, stand-alone bootable recovery drive, etc.(Quicken subscription version has no limit on the number of PCs.)
dwc13 wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:08 am You list looks familiar. I had considered several components that you will be using in your build. My first choice PS, the Seasonic FOCUS GX-750, wasn't available from a US seller when I ordered from Newegg. The Meshify C was one of 2 cases I had considered buying before deciding I should finally utilize a case that had been stored unused for more than 10 years. If my wife reads this post, I'm taking credit for helping to de-clutter the basement. The ASUS TUF Gaming X570-Plus (Wi-Fi) was a MB finalist, along with an ASROCK B550 model. ASUS customer service very poorly handled a defective router issue years ago and that factored in my decision to go with an MSI X570 motherboard.
Thanks for the heads up. Checking for gray market suppliers is on my list. I'll be choosing between Newegg and Amazon. One item of note is that the Noctua NH-U12S cooler has a dedicated version for the AM4 socket. It's available on Amazon, but not on Newegg. Amazon is also $18 cheaper.

I went with ASUS because my previous experience was good - several years ago. Their reputation went south after that, but it appears they've made a comeback.
Independent George wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:31 pm One thing I would add is that it's probably best to wait a month or so until AMD's next generation of CPUs and GPUs have been released and independently benchmarked before settling on an CPU & GPU. At the very least, you'll have a clearer picture of price to performance, and may even see discounts on the previous gen hardware.
Tough call, as there is always a new design in the pipeline. The best approach for me is to buy what's available now.
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by Independent George »

LadyGeek wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:40 am Tough call, as there is always a new design in the pipeline. The best approach for me is to buy what's available now.
One nice thing about socket AM4 is that they're forward/backwards compatible. If you really felt like it, you could easily replace your 3700X with the new 5000 series if it lives up to the rumors.

The tough thing about building a pc is that there's always something new in the pipeline, but Zen 3 is close enough that I can wait a few more weeks. I honestly enjoy the research & review phase of building a new system as much as I'll enjoy the new confuser itself.
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by LadyGeek »

Yes, I also enjoy doing the research. If you think the Zen 3 is "close enough" to release, I can wait a few weeks and research Zen 3.

I'll continue to fine-tune my spreadsheet for source (Amazon or Newegg) and pricing - US warranty is mandatory.

The spreadsheet also contains my software migration plan. For example, you'd be surprised how much software needs an activation key. Moving to a new PC requires deactivation on the "old" PC before you install it on the "new" PC. Malwarebytes is one example.

(I haven't heard "confuser" in a while and knew what you were referring to. :) )
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by Kruser64 »

LadyGeek wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:51 pm Yes, I also enjoy doing the research. If you think the Zen 3 is "close enough" to release, I can wait a few weeks and research Zen 3.
Zen 3 announcements from AMD are on 10/8.

https://twitter.com/AMD/status/1303727083747766274
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by stan1 »

dwc13 wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:08 am
Monitor -- Ordered a S2721DGF 27" QHD FreeSync Premium (G-SYNC compatible) 165 Hz IPS gaming monitor from Dell. Still waiting...
Mine is supposed to arrive Oct 20. Hoping it comes earlier.
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by LadyGeek »

I just realized that I haven't considered my UPS (Uninterruptible Power Supply) for the new build. The UPS I have now was purchased several years ago and sized for my prior homebrew PC. I only need to keep it powered long enough to perform a clean shutdown.

I currently have the APC Power-Saving Back-UPS Pro 1000 (discontinued) which is rated for 600 W.

Since my new PC is rated at 750 W, I'll exceed its capacity. (It can run my Lenovo for 20 minutes...) The power supply rating may not represent the power your PC is actually drawing, but it's a safe number to use.

Bear in mind that you have to consider everything that's plugged into the UPS' battery backup outlets, so choose carefully what you want to support during a power outage. I will be looking for a solution that can supply about 3 minutes at 750 W.

My budget just went up...

==============
For the "newer" builders in this thread - UPS manufacturers have tons of information which will help you select the right product. For example, scroll down on the above link to "Batteries & Runtime" and click on the "View Runtime Graph" link.

My Lenovo desktop (what I use now) has a 210 W power supply. I don't plug anything else into the battery backup outlet, so it's the only thing the UPS has to worry about. From the graph, 210 W will keep my PC on for 22.8 minutes.

Anyone with deep-dive questions on battery backup should see willthrill81's thread: A primer on backup battery systems for power outages

Update: Changed backup run time to 3 minutes based on APC website specs. That's enough time to shutdown a PC - if you're around when it happens.
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by lazydavid »

We just bought almost 600 of these, which are rated for 810w and have true sine wave output:

https://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/products ... P-BR1350MS

They run about $180.
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by 762NateOh »

There is a great deal on a Sabrent Rocket Q 4.0 m.2 drive right now on amazon.

Sabrent Rocket Q 4.0 on Amazon
Make sure you select the coupon!
I might be a little salty as I just paid full price a few weeks ago.

Compared with a lower end m.2 drive (WD Blue) and Samgung SATA SSD when I benchmark:

Samsung SATA: 500MB/s
WD Blue: 1600MB/s
Sabrent 4.0: 4800MB/s

This is with a compatible PCI 4.0 MB/CPU (Asus TUF X570/3900x)

Pretty alarming difference. Perhaps applications/games/OS's cannot use this speed, and considering my dinosaur spinny HDD was @ ~100MB/s, all those speeds are incredible.
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by lazydavid »

Also note that the TLC with coupon is the same price as the QLC, so I would (actually, just did) go for that one:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07TLYWMYW/re ... HJ1ZQ&th=1

The QLC with heatsink is $140, QLC or TLC without heatsink is $160.
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by random_walker_77 »

762NateOh wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:24 am There is a great deal on a Sabrent Rocket Q 4.0 m.2 drive right now on amazon.

Sabrent Rocket Q 4.0 on Amazon
Make sure you select the coupon!
I might be a little salty as I just paid full price a few weeks ago.

Compared with a lower end m.2 drive (WD Blue) and Samgung SATA SSD when I benchmark:

Samsung SATA: 500MB/s
WD Blue: 1600MB/s
Sabrent 4.0: 4800MB/s

This is with a compatible PCI 4.0 MB/CPU (Asus TUF X570/3900x)

Pretty alarming difference. Perhaps applications/games/OS's cannot use this speed, and considering my dinosaur spinny HDD was @ ~100MB/s, all those speeds are incredible.
Holy smokes, I didn't realize they could go that fast! Afraid that they were just quoting theoretical bus speeds, but not actually achievable speeds, I looked it up and sure enough, people are benchmarking 5000MB/s on sequential reads in a PCIE gen4 system.
https://hexus.net/tech/reviews/storage/ ... tb/?page=3

The review benchmarks show some improvement in game loading time, and a massive advantage in doing a bulk copy. Very cool!

(And then I noticed you were quoting your own benchmarking run, even better to have another data point)
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by LadyGeek »

This is the start of the Gen 4.0 PCIe SSDs. Here's Samsung's version: The Samsung 980 PRO PCIe 4.0 SSD Review: A Spirit of Hope

I thinking waiting a few weeks for the Zen 3 products has additional benefit, as this is the start of an SSD price war. It's the "Second wave" as described in the article.

The article is strongly suggesting that the high speed is overkill for what the rest of the system can do. If the applications can't keep up with the transfer rates, there's no point to pay a premium for the performance.
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by Slacker »

I just built my own system this past summer (first new PC/laptop in 8 years, and over 12 since I built a PC).

I knew the new graphics cards and Zen 3 processors were coming out, so I chose parts that I will pass on to my son (who is a senior in High School this year) and I told him he's getting a custom PC for Christmas that he will be building with my guidance.

ASUS Tuf Gaming X570 with wifi
R5 3600 (will be passed on to son once supply of Zen 3 parts are available -> I will likely go with a R7 4700 or equivalent, but may get an R9 4900 or equivalent)
2x16GB Gskill Ripjaws V 3200MHz CL16 (will be passed on to son and I will get 3600MHz CL16 ram...haven't decided on 2x16GB, 4x16GB or 2x32GB for my system yet)
Intel 665P 1TB SSD
Radeon RX570 with 8GB VRAM (will be passed on to son and I will get either an RX6000 series card or an RTX 3070 going for whichever has the best price to performance...if I go with an R9, I'll instead step up to an RTX3080 or "Big Navi")
Fractal Design Meshify C in White for the Case.
...and yes, I added RGB, why not?

I won't be overclocking anything. I do enjoy Flight Simulator 2020 and plan to get Cyberpunk 2077. Otherwise I will be doing some Software compilation and Blender (all of this just for fun). If I go with a 3070 or the Navi 22 I'll settle for a 1440p monitor. If I go with 3080 or Navi 21 then I will probably consider an ultrawide 1440p or maybe a 4K monitor. However, I'm planning on another two months to review my options, see what the youtube channels say about the parts and make my final decisions (I watch Gamer's Nexus and Hardware Unboxed for most of my review data on PC parts).

For my son's system:
I will likely go with a B450 mobo, the parts listed above that are passing on to him (ram, cpu, video card).
Targeting a micro-atx build, but may do a mini-itx if we find a case he likes and I can work in easily.
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by LadyGeek »

lazydavid wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:55 am We just bought almost 600 of these, which are rated for 810w and have true sine wave output:

https://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/products ... P-BR1350MS

They run about $180.
Thanks! The APC product selector didn't find that model until I dropped the power draw. I guess they're being conservative (or pushing more expensive products).

I followed the "Buy" link to Newegg which has it listed for $175. Searching further, I found a model without the USB charging ports for $155.

APC website: APC Back UPS Pro BX1350M, 1350VA ($155 at Newegg) This unit does not have a price, so I'm wondering if it's for resellers only.

FYI - APC has a trade-in program for up to 25% off. Unfortunately, their website prices are far too high to make it worthwhile to take advantage of free recycling.
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Re: PC Build Thread 2020

Post by lazydavid »

LadyGeek wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:07 pm
lazydavid wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:55 am We just bought almost 600 of these, which are rated for 810w and have true sine wave output:

https://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/products ... P-BR1350MS

They run about $180.
Thanks! The APC product selector didn't find that model until I dropped the power draw. I guess they're being conservative (or pushing more expensive products).

I followed the "Buy" link to Newegg which has it listed for $175. Searching further, I found a model without the USB charging ports for $155.

APC website: APC Back UPS Pro BX1350M, 1350VA ($155 at Newegg) This unit does not have a price, so I'm wondering if it's for resellers only.

FYI - APC has a trade-in program for up to 25% off. Unfortunately, their website prices are far too high to make it worthwhile to take advantage of free recycling.
I personally own two of those (one is the 1250 variant), and they're absolutely quality units. But they're MUCH older (mine are coming up on their second battery replacement), and in addition to not having USB charging ports, have stepped wave rather than sine wave output. I'm very happy with them and am going to keep them until they die, but if I were buying today I would definitely get the current model.
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