How to get over finance envy

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Point
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by Point »

You’re doing great.

Here what we focused on: Never be a burden on your kids. live well below your means. Develop multiple sources of future income. Stay away from the shiny stuff. Don’t follow the Joneses. Keep your cars for 10 years+. Pay off credit cards every month. Use cash as much as possible so you can feel the pain of spending on every transaction. Make your own meals. Have an emergency fund. Keep the kids from envying what others have.

You will get there. Patience. Focus.
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BogleFanGal
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by BogleFanGal »

And avoid opening BH threads entitled " large inheritance - how to invest?", "can we buy this 5 mill house?" "parents are funding our down payment- how much to spend?" "or "We only have $4 mill and 2 pensions - can we retire?" :twisted:
"Life would be infinitely happier if we could only be born at the age of eighty and gradually approach eighteen." Mark Twain
Carefreeap
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by Carefreeap »

BogleFanGal wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:20 pm And avoid opening BH threads entitled " large inheritance - how to invest?", "can we buy this 5 mill house?" "parents are funding our down payment- how much to spend?" "or "We only have $4 mill and 2 pensions - can we retire?" :twisted:
Lol at the bragplaints! 8-)
Every day I can hike is a good day.
GoldenGoose
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Re: "What are we doing wrong and what are "THEY" doing right!?"

Post by GoldenGoose »

Normchad wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:08 pm
I would rather be your neighbor, living in hock up to my eyeballs, enjoying every day of my life in a frivolous fashion, than to be some misery Scrooge leaving millions unspent on their demise.
While you don't want to spend every dollar you take in as fast as it comes, you don't really want to over analyze every purchase either. Enjoy life a little, people. Remember, you only live many years and the best time to enjoy life is when you are young, not when you are old. What is the point of having 2 millions in the bank while being sickly and old?
Escapevelocity
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by Escapevelocity »

BogleFanGal wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:20 pm And avoid opening BH threads entitled " large inheritance - how to invest?", "can we buy this 5 mill house?" "parents are funding our down payment- how much to spend?" "or "We only have $4 mill and 2 pensions - can we retire?" :twisted:
I love the ones that say "my wife and I each have $80k pensions with COLAs and we plan to spend $60k per year. Can we retire soon?"
hnd
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by hnd »

I taught FPU at our church for 5 years. At the beginning stages of the class, you are supposed to right anonymously on a piece of paper how much you have in savings, and how much you have in non mortgage debt. cars, student loans, CC, etc etc etc etc. and then i total it all up and put it on the board. and then we evaluate at the end of the class what that looks like again.

I taught this class to approximately 50 couples/singles. The sheer amount of debt these people had was absolutely astounding. i was like whaaaat!!??? i met a guy that taught it at his church which was much bigger and he taught it twice a year. he said its the exact same thing.

its safe to assume these people are swimming in debt in most instances.


BTW we could never do the end part where we evaluated because nearly 1/3 the class would stop coming by the time the class was done. the "no credit card" portion of the class was the giant guillotine for most of them.
ajg189
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by ajg189 »

Some great points in this thread. Often, you do have people living above their means or people who spend on things that are more visible to you. For example, one of my friends bought a new $60k car, but he and his wife never eat out anywhere fancier than Panera. If we were to reallocate our spending from food to cars, we could also have nicer cars. Yet, he is probably the one who is judged for being exorbitant. At the time, we were making the same income. People allocate their money based on different priorities and that’s okay.

The fact of the matter is, in a HCOL or VHCOL, many people with whom you are comparing yourselves likely earn more. My advice is just to follow your plan, keep doing what you are doing, and know that it will work out! You never know what is happening behind the scenes with others (inheritance, huge income, conservative in other aspects of life, or fiscally irresponsible).
Mr.BB
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by Mr.BB »

Let's just put this tread in a nutshell. Who cares what your friends/neighbors make. First of all when you do that you are judging them by "how they spend" not by "what the save".The reality is you no nothing expect for your own personal information. They may drowning in debt even if they are driving the newest Tesla, or they may be literally living paycheck to paycheck. They may have horrible jobs and bosses, you just don't know. I think you need to take course on Goal Setting to focus on your own goals, not your neighbors.
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit."
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djpeteski
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by djpeteski »

hnd wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:02 pm I taught FPU at our church for 5 years. ....
Same kind of thing, taught the class a few times, and many people came to the class seeking bailouts. One couple earned a very modest salary (like 50 to 60K/year range) but somehow owed the IRS over 100K, plus car payments etc. They were unwilling to change their lifestyle and assumed the church would just write a check for them. What? The debt to income and savings ratios of most people are very out of wack.

IMHO the biggest antidote to financial envy is giving to worthy causes and counting your own blessings.

I know some couples that have a lot more money then us but are miserable. I would not want to change places with them. I also know two couples that have a lot more money than us, and are such wonderful people, great friends. The wife and I "change places" with them by mimicking their behavior. That is treating others with grace, dignity, and generosity that are less fortunate then us.
Jags4186
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by Jags4186 »

TheDDC wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:59 pm
MathIsMyWayr wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:45 pm
BradJ wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 6:17 pm
TheDDC wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:15 pm
grettman wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:43 pm

Good point. Don’t assume those who spend money on luxuries are over extended. Some people frankly are doing better than you. The neighbor who spends a ton of money might very well have a ton of cash. Move on. Be thankful for what you have. Want more? Work harder and/or smarter. Oh and no matter how rich you are, someone is richer than you!
Usually not the case.

-TheDDC
My approach is effective, true or not.
How do you know they are usually over-extended? That is your lame excuse for not being able to make as much money as others. Even if some are over-extended, it is their problem, not yours. Some people make more money than you, sometime a lot more. That is life. No sour grapes or bad mouthing.
You can believe that if you'd like. We look at statistics to describe an overall population. More often than not it's vanity and it's debt up their eyeballs. Anyway, this thread is mostly pointless. To OP: Maybe it's possible to get as much in debt as these people if you work at it hard?

-TheDDC
Are some people over extended? Of course. Do some people just make a lot more money? Yes.

The biggest envy I have, and I know this seems like a dig on my spouse but it isn't, are those who have "good jobs" and have spouses that also have "good jobs". A couple where both make $100k or $150k is in a drastically different spot then one where one makes $100k or $150k and the other makes $40k or $50k. If you have a low earning spouse you need to fly in order to "compete" with relatively equal earning dual income couples.

It's hard to get over envy, but you just have to deal with it. I'm sure you have friends who look up at you and feel the same way you feel about these other folks. Don't let it consume you.
takeabiteoflife
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by takeabiteoflife »

I am also guilty of finance envy. We live in a VHCOL area and all of our neighbors have beautiful homes, expensive luxury cars, dining/take outs, and have numerous trips/vacations, etc. I have wondered how do they have these lavish lifestyles and still be able to save. My DW says that most of them are probably not saving but I just don't know if that's true.

As we have recently changed from dual income to just one, this has created some additional envy and stress. As the only breadwinner now, I worry we are falling farther behind our "wealthy" neighbors. And even worse, what if I lose my job and we have to use our savings to support our family and pay for healthcare coverage?!
softmax
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by softmax »

Mr.BB wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:47 am Let's just put this tread in a nutshell. Who cares what your friends/neighbors make. First of all when you do that you are judging them by "how they spend" not by "what the save".The reality is you no nothing expect for your own personal information. They may drowning in debt even if they are driving the newest Tesla, or they may be literally living paycheck to paycheck. They may have horrible jobs and bosses, you just don't know. I think you need to take course on Goal Setting to focus on your own goals, not your neighbors.
This conclusion still implies that others are doing *worse* in many aspects. It could be the other way:
1) They took risks and made great investment returns
2) They are smart and make big paychecks through their regular jobs
3) They have successful side businesses
4) Their kids are angels so that parenting is easier
Normchad
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by Normchad »

softmax wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:45 am
Mr.BB wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:47 am Let's just put this tread in a nutshell. Who cares what your friends/neighbors make. First of all when you do that you are judging them by "how they spend" not by "what the save".The reality is you no nothing expect for your own personal information. They may drowning in debt even if they are driving the newest Tesla, or they may be literally living paycheck to paycheck. They may have horrible jobs and bosses, you just don't know. I think you need to take course on Goal Setting to focus on your own goals, not your neighbors.
This conclusion still implies that others are doing *worse* in many aspects. It could be the other way:
1) They took risks and made great investment returns
2) They are smart and make big paychecks through their regular jobs
3) They have successful side businesses
4) Their kids are angels so that parenting is easier
You are absolutely correct. Maybe we are envious, because they are in fact doing better.

To me, it all misses the point though. It’s simply none of my business or concern. If they are doing better, or doing worse, it just doesn’t matter. It has no impact on my life. As someone else said “you don’t pay their bills”.

So anytime we spend even thinking about it, is a los for us. That’s time we could have spent doing something better.

It’s very hard to not think about it at all, but that’s my goal.
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novolog
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by novolog »

I do think being "inner-directed" is the answer for me. In my opinion worrying about others is a waste of my energy, and I strive to focus on my own family. I have noticed that this makes me significantly happier. That does not mean it is necessarily a waste of energy for others, I can only speak for myself.

Even if you were to take an "outer-directed" approach to life, you probably cannot know whether people live below or above their means (unless they tell you). There are probably statistics that show most folks are in debt, but you still cannot take these statistics and apply them to specific situations (example: your neighbors).
Mr.BB
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by Mr.BB »

softmax wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:45 am
Mr.BB wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:47 am Let's just put this tread in a nutshell. Who cares what your friends/neighbors make. First of all when you do that you are judging them by "how they spend" not by "what the save".The reality is you no nothing expect for your own personal information. They may drowning in debt even if they are driving the newest Tesla, or they may be literally living paycheck to paycheck. They may have horrible jobs and bosses, you just don't know. I think you need to take course on Goal Setting to focus on your own goals, not your neighbors.
This conclusion still implies that others are doing *worse* in many aspects. It could be the other way:
1) They took risks and made great investment returns
2) They are smart and make big paychecks through their regular jobs
3) They have successful side businesses
4) Their kids are angels so that parenting is easier
Could be. Bottom line is that the OP has no information or in-depth information regarding how or why her neighbors seem to be doing so well. Finance Envy is a very bad emotional investment.
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit."
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mrspock
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by mrspock »

GreenLawn wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:20 pm I don't live around or hang out with affluent folks so I don't have occasion to be envious. I live in a safe, moderate income neighborhood and shop at moderate income stores. Seems like I've saved myself a lot of stress after reading these comments. Or maybe I just don't care about expensive cars, homes and boats. Fun vacations? Okay, there may be some envy there :D
+1. This has pretty much been my approach. I imagine I make/have a good deal more than those who live in my area, but I have a typical middle class home, and easily the worst car of anyone here. As for the the upper class folks living in the nicer areas....I have something immensely more valuable to me than a bling house or fancy car, I have the freedom to never work a day in my life if I want, and still lead a very middle (to upper middle class if I want) life.

It all comes down to what you value the most. Do you want the "stuff", or the freedom & independence banked earnings bring via compounding? In the latter approach, you can still end up getting *a lot* of "stuff" if you want, you'll just have to wait a bit longer.
GreenLawn
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by GreenLawn »

mrspock wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:59 pm
GreenLawn wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:20 pm I don't live around or hang out with affluent folks so I don't have occasion to be envious. I live in a safe, moderate income neighborhood and shop at moderate income stores. Seems like I've saved myself a lot of stress after reading these comments. Or maybe I just don't care about expensive cars, homes and boats. Fun vacations? Okay, there may be some envy there :D
+1. This has pretty much been my approach. I imagine I make/have a good deal more than those who live in my area, but I have a typical middle class home, and easily the worst car of anyone here. As for the the upper class folks living in the nicer areas....I have something immensely more valuable to me than a bling house or fancy car, I have the freedom to never work a day in my life if I want, and still lead a very middle (to upper middle class if I want) life.

It all comes down to what you value the most. Do you want the "stuff", or the freedom & independence banked earnings bring via compounding? In the latter approach, you can still end up getting *a lot* of "stuff" if you want, you'll just have to wait a bit longer.
I've heard that folks are happy or not with their standard of living depending on how much the brother-in-law makes. Some truth to that. Luckily for me even though my BIL makes much more than me you wouldn't know it from his house or car. So I'm feeling pretty darn good these days:)
shell921
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Re: "What are we doing wrong and what are "THEY" doing right!?"

Post by shell921 »

GoldenGoose wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:38 pm
Normchad wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:08 pm
I would rather be your neighbor, living in hock up to my eyeballs, enjoying every day of my life in a frivolous fashion, than to be some misery Scrooge leaving millions unspent on their demise.
While you don't want to spend every dollar you take in as fast as it comes, you don't really want to over analyze every purchase either. Enjoy life a little, people. Remember, you only live many years and the best time to enjoy life is when you are young, not when you are old. What is the point of having 2 millions in the bank while being sickly and old?
BALANCE is the key to everything. Don't be wreckless....but enjoy yourself..you never know what's coming and there are no pockets in a shroud.
My late husband has been gone 6 years. He always wanted to restore a classic car and we could have afforded it long before he passed. I regret that he never got to do that.
BradJ
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by BradJ »

Jags4186 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:51 am
TheDDC wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:59 pm
MathIsMyWayr wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:45 pm
BradJ wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 6:17 pm
TheDDC wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:15 pm

Usually not the case.

-TheDDC
My approach is effective, true or not.
How do you know they are usually over-extended? That is your lame excuse for not being able to make as much money as others. Even if some are over-extended, it is their problem, not yours. Some people make more money than you, sometime a lot more. That is life. No sour grapes or bad mouthing.
You can believe that if you'd like. We look at statistics to describe an overall population. More often than not it's vanity and it's debt up their eyeballs. Anyway, this thread is mostly pointless. To OP: Maybe it's possible to get as much in debt as these people if you work at it hard?

-TheDDC
Are some people over extended? Of course. Do some people just make a lot more money? Yes.

The biggest envy I have, and I know this seems like a dig on my spouse but it isn't, are those who have "good jobs" and have spouses that also have "good jobs". A couple where both make $100k or $150k is in a drastically different spot then one where one makes $100k or $150k and the other makes $40k or $50k. If you have a low earning spouse you need to fly in order to "compete" with relatively equal earning dual income couples.

It's hard to get over envy, but you just have to deal with it. I'm sure you have friends who look up at you and feel the same way you feel about these other folks. Don't let it consume you.
Would you elaborate on " If you have a low earning spouse you need to fly in order to "compete" with relatively equal earning dual income couples."?
Jags4186
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by Jags4186 »

BradJ wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:37 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:51 am
TheDDC wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:59 pm
MathIsMyWayr wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:45 pm
BradJ wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 6:17 pm

My approach is effective, true or not.
How do you know they are usually over-extended? That is your lame excuse for not being able to make as much money as others. Even if some are over-extended, it is their problem, not yours. Some people make more money than you, sometime a lot more. That is life. No sour grapes or bad mouthing.
You can believe that if you'd like. We look at statistics to describe an overall population. More often than not it's vanity and it's debt up their eyeballs. Anyway, this thread is mostly pointless. To OP: Maybe it's possible to get as much in debt as these people if you work at it hard?

-TheDDC
Are some people over extended? Of course. Do some people just make a lot more money? Yes.

The biggest envy I have, and I know this seems like a dig on my spouse but it isn't, are those who have "good jobs" and have spouses that also have "good jobs". A couple where both make $100k or $150k is in a drastically different spot then one where one makes $100k or $150k and the other makes $40k or $50k. If you have a low earning spouse you need to fly in order to "compete" with relatively equal earning dual income couples.

It's hard to get over envy, but you just have to deal with it. I'm sure you have friends who look up at you and feel the same way you feel about these other folks. Don't let it consume you.
Would you elaborate on " If you have a low earning spouse you need to fly in order to "compete" with relatively equal earning dual income couples."?
Sure. If you make $150k and your spouse makes $40k together you make $190k. If you have friends where both spouses make $150k, they together make $300k. $300k is almost 60% more than $190k. To be on an “equal playing field” income wise, you’d need to earn $260k if your spouse only ever is going to earn $40k. $260k jobs are a lot harder to come by than $150k jobs.
BradJ
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by BradJ »

djpeteski wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:48 am
hnd wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:02 pm I taught FPU at our church for 5 years. ....
Same kind of thing, taught the class a few times, and many people came to the class seeking bailouts. One couple earned a very modest salary (like 50 to 60K/year range) but somehow owed the IRS over 100K, plus car payments etc. They were unwilling to change their lifestyle and assumed the church would just write a check for them. What? The debt to income and savings ratios of most people are very out of wack.

IMHO the biggest antidote to financial envy is giving to worthy causes and counting your own blessings.

I know some couples that have a lot more money then us but are miserable. I would not want to change places with them. I also know two couples that have a lot more money than us, and are such wonderful people, great friends. The wife and I "change places" with them by mimicking their behavior. That is treating others with grace, dignity, and generosity that are less fortunate then us.
I would like to add to your great post, specifically to generosity, if I may. My wife and I are flawed humans and suffer from envy with the best of them, but we have seen miraculous outcomes of being generous to others. One of those being we have been in a situation where people were generous to us (one of our kids was very, very sick at one point in his life), and the understanding of the joy it brought them and the fact we would strive to be as generous when we got back on our feet. The second outcome of giving to others is seeing the benefit you receive from that may possibly be limiting the opportunity to buy crap you don't need (less money to spend).
Last edited by BradJ on Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
afan
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Re: "What are we doing wrong and what are "THEY" doing right!?"

Post by afan »

Normchad wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:08 pm
I would rather be your neighbor, living in hock up to my eyeballs, enjoying every day of my life in a frivolous fashion, than to be some misery Scrooge leaving millions unspent on their demise.

I would rather be the miserly Scrooge with millions left at death.

If I were in hock up to my eyebrows, I certainly would not be enjoying every day of my life. A lifestyle like that would be the stuff of nightmares.
Money is meant to be spent and enjoyed.
Money is meant to be saved and invested. To grow wealth and facilitate commerce. To build the economy.

Not to be blown on "enjoyment".
We don't know how to beat the market on a risk-adjusted basis, and we don't know anyone that does know either | --Swedroe | We assume that markets are efficient, that prices are right | --Fama
afan
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by afan »

Jags4186 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:47 pm
BradJ wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:37 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:51 am
TheDDC wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:59 pm
MathIsMyWayr wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:45 pm
How do you know they are usually over-extended? That is your lame excuse for not being able to make as much money as others. Even if some are over-extended, it is their problem, not yours. Some people make more money than you, sometime a lot more. That is life. No sour grapes or bad mouthing.
You can believe that if you'd like. We look at statistics to describe an overall population. More often than not it's vanity and it's debt up their eyeballs. Anyway, this thread is mostly pointless. To OP: Maybe it's possible to get as much in debt as these people if you work at it hard?

-TheDDC
Are some people over extended? Of course. Do some people just make a lot more money? Yes.

The biggest envy I have, and I know this seems like a dig on my spouse but it isn't, are those who have "good jobs" and have spouses that also have "good jobs". A couple where both make $100k or $150k is in a drastically different spot then one where one makes $100k or $150k and the other makes $40k or $50k. If you have a low earning spouse you need to fly in order to "compete" with relatively equal earning dual income couples.

It's hard to get over envy, but you just have to deal with it. I'm sure you have friends who look up at you and feel the same way you feel about these other folks. Don't let it consume you.
Would you elaborate on " If you have a low earning spouse you need to fly in order to "compete" with relatively equal earning dual income couples."?
Sure. If you make $150k and your spouse makes $40k together you make $190k. If you have friends where both spouses make $150k, they together make $300k. $300k is almost 60% more than $190k. To be on an “equal playing field” income wise, you’d need to earn $260k if your spouse only ever is going to earn $40k. $260k jobs are a lot harder to come by than $150k jobs.
Got that. What does "you need to fly" mean?
We don't know how to beat the market on a risk-adjusted basis, and we don't know anyone that does know either | --Swedroe | We assume that markets are efficient, that prices are right | --Fama
BradJ
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by BradJ »

Jags4186 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:47 pm
BradJ wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:37 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:51 am
TheDDC wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:59 pm
MathIsMyWayr wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:45 pm
How do you know they are usually over-extended? That is your lame excuse for not being able to make as much money as others. Even if some are over-extended, it is their problem, not yours. Some people make more money than you, sometime a lot more. That is life. No sour grapes or bad mouthing.
You can believe that if you'd like. We look at statistics to describe an overall population. More often than not it's vanity and it's debt up their eyeballs. Anyway, this thread is mostly pointless. To OP: Maybe it's possible to get as much in debt as these people if you work at it hard?

-TheDDC
Are some people over extended? Of course. Do some people just make a lot more money? Yes.

The biggest envy I have, and I know this seems like a dig on my spouse but it isn't, are those who have "good jobs" and have spouses that also have "good jobs". A couple where both make $100k or $150k is in a drastically different spot then one where one makes $100k or $150k and the other makes $40k or $50k. If you have a low earning spouse you need to fly in order to "compete" with relatively equal earning dual income couples.

It's hard to get over envy, but you just have to deal with it. I'm sure you have friends who look up at you and feel the same way you feel about these other folks. Don't let it consume you.
Would you elaborate on " If you have a low earning spouse you need to fly in order to "compete" with relatively equal earning dual income couples."?
Sure. If you make $150k and your spouse makes $40k together you make $190k. If you have friends where both spouses make $150k, they together make $300k. $300k is almost 60% more than $190k. To be on an “equal playing field” income wise, you’d need to earn $260k if your spouse only ever is going to earn $40k. $260k jobs are a lot harder to come by than $150k jobs.
Thank you.
Just a question, do people talk openly about what they make with their friends and family, or is it assumption based on their careers? I'm quite sure I have no clue what my friends or family make, and that goes the same way as well. I honestly have no interest in what they make, mainly because I don't like an outcome where one person feels worse and the other feels better. If someone were to ask me, I would ask them to give me the benefit of knowing what I make, and then I would tell them my salary down to the penny.
Jags4186
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by Jags4186 »

afan wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:02 pm
Jags4186 wrote:Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:47 pm
BradJ wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:37 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:51 am
TheDDC wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:59 pm

You can believe that if you'd like. We look at statistics to describe an overall population. More often than not it's vanity and it's debt up their eyeballs. Anyway, this thread is mostly pointless. To OP: Maybe it's possible to get as much in debt as these people if you work at it hard?

-TheDDC
Are some people over extended? Of course. Do some people just make a lot more money? Yes.

The biggest envy I have, and I know this seems like a dig on my spouse but it isn't, are those who have "good jobs" and have spouses that also have "good jobs". A couple where both make $100k or $150k is in a drastically different spot then one where one makes $100k or $150k and the other makes $40k or $50k. If you have a low earning spouse you need to fly in order to "compete" with relatively equal earning dual income couples.

It's hard to get over envy, but you just have to deal with it. I'm sure you have friends who look up at you and feel the same way you feel about these other folks. Don't let it consume you.
Would you elaborate on " If you have a low earning spouse you need to fly in order to "compete" with relatively equal earning dual income couples."?
Sure. If you make $150k and your spouse makes $40k together you make $190k. If you have friends where both spouses make $150k, they together make $300k. $300k is almost 60% more than $190k. To be on an “equal playing field” income wise, you’d need to earn $260k if your spouse only ever is going to earn $40k. $260k jobs are a lot harder to come by than $150k jobs.
Got that. What does "you need to fly" mean?
It’s just a colloquialism for “you need to do really well”. I think I got it from an old Chris Rock standup where he’s talking about how he lives In Alpine, NJ next door to Mary J Blige, Jay Z, Eddie Murphy, and a “yank-your-tooth, dentist”.
Last edited by Jags4186 on Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.
oldfort
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by oldfort »

BradJ wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:03 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:47 pm
BradJ wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:37 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:51 am
TheDDC wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:59 pm

You can believe that if you'd like. We look at statistics to describe an overall population. More often than not it's vanity and it's debt up their eyeballs. Anyway, this thread is mostly pointless. To OP: Maybe it's possible to get as much in debt as these people if you work at it hard?

-TheDDC
Are some people over extended? Of course. Do some people just make a lot more money? Yes.

The biggest envy I have, and I know this seems like a dig on my spouse but it isn't, are those who have "good jobs" and have spouses that also have "good jobs". A couple where both make $100k or $150k is in a drastically different spot then one where one makes $100k or $150k and the other makes $40k or $50k. If you have a low earning spouse you need to fly in order to "compete" with relatively equal earning dual income couples.

It's hard to get over envy, but you just have to deal with it. I'm sure you have friends who look up at you and feel the same way you feel about these other folks. Don't let it consume you.
Would you elaborate on " If you have a low earning spouse you need to fly in order to "compete" with relatively equal earning dual income couples."?
Sure. If you make $150k and your spouse makes $40k together you make $190k. If you have friends where both spouses make $150k, they together make $300k. $300k is almost 60% more than $190k. To be on an “equal playing field” income wise, you’d need to earn $260k if your spouse only ever is going to earn $40k. $260k jobs are a lot harder to come by than $150k jobs.
Thank you.
Just a question, do people talk openly about what they make with their friends and family, or is it assumption based on their careers? I'm quite sure I have no clue what my friends or family make, and that goes the same way as well. I honestly have no interest in what they make, mainly because I don't like an outcome where one person feels worse and the other feels better. If someone were to ask me, I would ask them to give me the benefit of knowing what I make, and then I would tell them my salary down to the penny.
For government jobs, most employee salaries are a matter of public record and available through publicly searchable databases. Some federal employee information is exempt from FOIA records, largely for reasons of national security, but the employees still operate on a GS or equivalent pay scale. Everyone knows what everyone else's pay grade is and for a given location, a pay grade has about a $30k range from the bottom to the top. There's little mystery as to what anyone else makes in government jobs.
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by RadAudit »

GoldenGoose wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:38 pm What is the point of having 2 millions in the bank while being sickly and old?
The assisted living / retirement community your kids stuck you in won't throw you out in the street (yet) to live under the railroad bridge? :wink:
FI is the best revenge. LBYM. Invest the rest. Stay the course. - PS: The cavalry isn't coming, kids. You are on your own.
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by iamblessed »

Nest time you envy someone you know watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNRwERkZhjs
You are envying a poor person.
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by Rifampin »

Comparison is the thief of joy.
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beernutz
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by beernutz »

Unless you can see people's debt you have no idea how affluent they are.
Don't gamble; take all your savings and buy some good stock and hold it till it goes up, then sell it. If it don't go up, don't buy it. --Will Rogers
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by PhoebeCoco »

Sheesh! OP, you are in the top 1% in the world in terms of wealth! Maybe you should travel more and see how most of the world lives!
If you're not working on yourself, you're not working.
av111
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by av111 »

Point wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:24 am You’re doing great.

Here what we focused on: Never be a burden on your kids. live well below your means. Develop multiple sources of future income. Stay away from the shiny stuff. Don’t follow the Joneses. Keep your cars for 10 years+. Pay off credit cards every month. Use cash as much as possible so you can feel the pain of spending on every transaction. Make your own meals. Have an emergency fund. Keep the kids from envying what others have.

You will get there. Patience. Focus.
+1

Point

I think exactly like this. In addition it sure helps if Lady luck smiles 😊
AV111
afan
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by afan »

I have no idea what cars my neighbors drive.

I don't care.

There is no car a neighbor could have that would elicit envy in me. There are lots of people who have cars that are fancier or more expensive than mine. I know this and I don't care. My car gets me where I am going, safely and reliably. What more could I ask of it? Why would it matter to me if some of those more expensive cars I don't care about were owned by people who are in my neighborhood? What earthly difference would it make to me?

By the same token, I know that some people have bigger, fancier houses than we do. Some wear extremely expensive clothing, take expensive vacations and so forth. Again, this is behavior of people other than me. None of my business and of no interest.

If I cared, I could look up the proportion of cars on the road that are more expensive than mine. I have not done this because I don't care. But even if I did care, why would it matter to me whether someone who had a more expensive car lived down the block versus 4 states over? What significance would I attach to whether I had met one of the owners of an expensive car or never laid eyes in any of them?

I really don't get it.
We don't know how to beat the market on a risk-adjusted basis, and we don't know anyone that does know either | --Swedroe | We assume that markets are efficient, that prices are right | --Fama
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FOGU
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by FOGU »

Texanbybirth wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:55 pm
FOGU wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:51 pm Antidotes to the Deadly Sin of Envy: Cultivating charity, magnanimity, rejoicing in the joy or success of others.
Very well said.
I stole it.
From here: https://meaningofcatholic.com/2019/06/2 ... ma/#deadly
Last edited by FOGU on Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ajg189
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Re: "What are we doing wrong and what are "THEY" doing right!?"

Post by ajg189 »

afan wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:00 pm
Normchad wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:08 pm
I would rather be your neighbor, living in hock up to my eyeballs, enjoying every day of my life in a frivolous fashion, than to be some misery Scrooge leaving millions unspent on their demise.

I would rather be the miserly Scrooge with millions left at death.

If I were in hock up to my eyebrows, I certainly would not be enjoying every day of my life. A lifestyle like that would be the stuff of nightmares.
Money is meant to be spent and enjoyed.
Money is meant to be saved and invested. To grow wealth and facilitate commerce. To build the economy.

Not to be blown on "enjoyment".
While I agree with you that I would also feel miserable/stressed if I was over leveraged living a lifestyle I could afford, I certainly would not argue that growing wealth builds the economy more than consumption.

Already wealthy people adding additional wealth to their large bank accounts pales in comparison as far as economic impact to what middle class families do with the same amount of dollars.
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Re: "What are we doing wrong and what are "THEY" doing right!?"

Post by FOGU »

ajg189 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:25 pm
afan wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:00 pm
Normchad wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:08 pm
I would rather be your neighbor, living in hock up to my eyeballs, enjoying every day of my life in a frivolous fashion, than to be some misery Scrooge leaving millions unspent on their demise.

I would rather be the miserly Scrooge with millions left at death.

If I were in hock up to my eyebrows, I certainly would not be enjoying every day of my life. A lifestyle like that would be the stuff of nightmares.
Money is meant to be spent and enjoyed.
Money is meant to be saved and invested. To grow wealth and facilitate commerce. To build the economy.

Not to be blown on "enjoyment".
While I agree with you that I would also feel miserable/stressed if I was over leveraged living a lifestyle I could afford, I certainly would not argue that growing wealth builds the economy more than consumption.

Already wealthy people adding additional wealth to their large bank accounts pales in comparison as far as economic impact to what middle class families do with the same amount of dollars.
When the rich put it in their bank accounts it gets loaned out to businesses and mortgage borrowers, which is stimulative economic activity. When the rich put it in VTSAX it is direct capital investment in the businesses that comprise the index.
Tingting1013
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Re: "What are we doing wrong and what are "THEY" doing right!?"

Post by Tingting1013 »

FOGU wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:31 pmWhen the rich put it in VTSAX it is direct capital investment in the businesses that comprise the index.
Not true at all.
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unclescrooge
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by unclescrooge »

iamblessed wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:47 pm Nest time you envy someone you know watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNRwERkZhjs
You are envying a poor person.
That was awesome!
Goes to show how much you're leaving in the table by working for someone else and not having an equity stake in the company.
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FOGU
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Re: "What are we doing wrong and what are "THEY" doing right!?"

Post by FOGU »

Tingting1013 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:33 pm
FOGU wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:31 pmWhen the rich put it in VTSAX it is direct capital investment in the businesses that comprise the index.
Not true at all.
Enlighten me.
Tingting1013
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Re: "What are we doing wrong and what are "THEY" doing right!?"

Post by Tingting1013 »

FOGU wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:09 pm
Tingting1013 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:33 pm
FOGU wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:31 pmWhen the rich put it in VTSAX it is direct capital investment in the businesses that comprise the index.
Not true at all.
Enlighten me.
When you buy a share of VTSAX or any stock, you are buying it on the secondary market from another shareholder. The companies whose stock you are buying get no capital at all from your transaction.

The only time companies directly get capital from a stock sale is when they sell stock themselves, in an IPO or a secondary offering. As a retail investor you are almost never going to be in a position to invest in those.
smitcat
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Re: "What are we doing wrong and what are "THEY" doing right!?"

Post by smitcat »

afan wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:00 pm
Normchad wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:08 pm
I would rather be your neighbor, living in hock up to my eyeballs, enjoying every day of my life in a frivolous fashion, than to be some misery Scrooge leaving millions unspent on their demise.

I would rather be the miserly Scrooge with millions left at death.

If I were in hock up to my eyebrows, I certainly would not be enjoying every day of my life. A lifestyle like that would be the stuff of nightmares.
Money is meant to be spent and enjoyed.
Money is meant to be saved and invested. To grow wealth and facilitate commerce. To build the economy.

Not to be blown on "enjoyment".
"Not to be blown on "enjoyment""
There is no other purpose for money other than spending it for some worthy cause - hopefuly one that brings joy to you or some other person or mission you find important.
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by warner25 »

Jags4186 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:51 am The biggest envy I have, and I know this seems like a dig on my spouse but it isn't, are those who have "good jobs" and have spouses that also have "good jobs".
I feel this. It's something that has humbled me in recent years too. I got off to a good start with no college debt and a professional career, piling up savings from the age of 21, so I thought of myself as doing financially better than most people my age. That was part of my identity. However, my wife became a stay-at-home mom. After a few years, I realized that many people, whom I always considered less financially successful, were easily earning more than us with their combined incomes. When we see them buying stuff now that we wouldn't consider due to the cost, I feel incredulous until I remember this. It's a lifestyle choice with its own benefits, but it will cost us 7 figures.
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by warner25 »

hnd wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:02 pm I taught FPU at our church for 5 years...
I'm wondering if this is just what you get when you offer a class that's mostly about debt reduction: people in debt. On the other hand, maybe the people who show up at FPU actually represent a segment of the population that's better with money than most; like at least they care enough to devote time to a personal finance class. Interesting that the dropout rate is so high.

What would you do if you had someone show up who was saving and investing like a typical Boglehead?
student
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by student »

SQRT wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:24 am Or “she does look pretty good. Must be a face lift”. Any others?
lol.
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FOGU
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Re: "What are we doing wrong and what are "THEY" doing right!?"

Post by FOGU »

Tingting1013 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:14 pm
FOGU wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:09 pm
Tingting1013 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:33 pm
FOGU wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:31 pmWhen the rich put it in VTSAX it is direct capital investment in the businesses that comprise the index.
Not true at all.
Enlighten me.
When you buy a share of VTSAX or any stock, you are buying it on the secondary market from another shareholder. The companies whose stock you are buying get no capital at all from your transaction.

The only time companies directly get capital from a stock sale is when they sell stock themselves, in an IPO or a secondary offering. As a retail investor you are almost never going to be in a position to invest in those.
The money that buys the shares is still an equity investment, a capital investment, whether purchased direct from the company who issued it or from a seller on the secondary market. This is a replenishment of the original capital, which is as necessary to the system as the original equity issue. The point is that the money is deployed in productive capital, not stored in some unproductive mattress or vault.
Tingting1013
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Re: "What are we doing wrong and what are "THEY" doing right!?"

Post by Tingting1013 »

FOGU wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:31 pm
Tingting1013 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:14 pm
FOGU wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:09 pm
Tingting1013 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:33 pm
FOGU wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:31 pmWhen the rich put it in VTSAX it is direct capital investment in the businesses that comprise the index.
Not true at all.
Enlighten me.
When you buy a share of VTSAX or any stock, you are buying it on the secondary market from another shareholder. The companies whose stock you are buying get no capital at all from your transaction.

The only time companies directly get capital from a stock sale is when they sell stock themselves, in an IPO or a secondary offering. As a retail investor you are almost never going to be in a position to invest in those.
The money that buys the shares is still an equity investment, a capital investment, whether purchased direct from the company who issued it or from a seller on the secondary market. This is a replenishment of the original capital, which is as necessary to the system as the original equity issue. The point is that the money is deployed in productive capital, not stored in some unproductive mattress or vault.
I have no idea what you are talking about.

If I bought a share of stock and stuck the paper stock certificate under my mattress, is that productive capital?

If I take that stock certificate and traded it with my neighbors, is that productive capital?

Trading stocks back and forth literally does nothing productive for the economy*. If anything it inflates bubbles.

*EDIT: I guess it creates jobs for stockbrokers, but I’d call that “predatory capital” instead
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Re: "What are we doing wrong and what are "THEY" doing right!?"

Post by FOGU »

Tingting1013 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:41 pm
FOGU wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:31 pm
Tingting1013 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:14 pm
FOGU wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:09 pm
Tingting1013 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:33 pm

Not true at all.
Enlighten me.
When you buy a share of VTSAX or any stock, you are buying it on the secondary market from another shareholder. The companies whose stock you are buying get no capital at all from your transaction.

The only time companies directly get capital from a stock sale is when they sell stock themselves, in an IPO or a secondary offering. As a retail investor you are almost never going to be in a position to invest in those.
The money that buys the shares is still an equity investment, a capital investment, whether purchased direct from the company who issued it or from a seller on the secondary market. This is a replenishment of the original capital, which is as necessary to the system as the original equity issue. The point is that the money is deployed in productive capital, not stored in some unproductive mattress or vault.
I have no idea what you are talking about.

If I bought a share of stock and stuck the paper stock certificate under my mattress, is that productive capital?

If I take that stock certificate and traded it with my neighbors, is that productive capital?

Trading stocks back and forth literally does nothing productive for the economy*. If anything it inflates bubbles.

*EDIT: I guess it creates jobs for stockbrokers, but I’d call that “predatory capital” instead
If you stick the certificate under your mattress the money used to buy the certificate is still deployed in the business. So yes, it is indeed productive capital.
If you trade with your neighbors, taking your capital out to spend and your neighbors putting their capital in as investment, then yes, that is indeed productive capital.

Should original investors be expected or required to leave their investments in the company permanently and forever, and anything else doesn't qualify as capital investment? People invest for a time and take their money out for other purposes - living expenses, etc. That is one good reason the secondary market exists, the strategic deployment of new wealth when the original investments are withdrawn for whatever reason.
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by manatee2005 »

warner25 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:44 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:51 am The biggest envy I have, and I know this seems like a dig on my spouse but it isn't, are those who have "good jobs" and have spouses that also have "good jobs".
I feel this. It's something that has humbled me in recent years too. I got off to a good start with no college debt and a professional career, piling up savings from the age of 21, so I thought of myself as doing financially better than most people my age. That was part of my identity. However, my wife became a stay-at-home mom. After a few years, I realized that many people, whom I always considered less financially successful, were easily earning more than us with their combined incomes. When we see them buying stuff now that we wouldn't consider due to the cost, I feel incredulous until I remember this. It's a lifestyle choice with its own benefits, but it will cost us 7 figures.
Still cheaper than divorce.
Last edited by manatee2005 on Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tingting1013
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Re: "What are we doing wrong and what are "THEY" doing right!?"

Post by Tingting1013 »

FOGU wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:57 pm
Tingting1013 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:41 pm
FOGU wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:31 pm
Tingting1013 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:14 pm
FOGU wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:09 pm

Enlighten me.
When you buy a share of VTSAX or any stock, you are buying it on the secondary market from another shareholder. The companies whose stock you are buying get no capital at all from your transaction.

The only time companies directly get capital from a stock sale is when they sell stock themselves, in an IPO or a secondary offering. As a retail investor you are almost never going to be in a position to invest in those.
The money that buys the shares is still an equity investment, a capital investment, whether purchased direct from the company who issued it or from a seller on the secondary market. This is a replenishment of the original capital, which is as necessary to the system as the original equity issue. The point is that the money is deployed in productive capital, not stored in some unproductive mattress or vault.
I have no idea what you are talking about.

If I bought a share of stock and stuck the paper stock certificate under my mattress, is that productive capital?

If I take that stock certificate and traded it with my neighbors, is that productive capital?

Trading stocks back and forth literally does nothing productive for the economy*. If anything it inflates bubbles.

*EDIT: I guess it creates jobs for stockbrokers, but I’d call that “predatory capital” instead
If you stick the certificate under your mattress the money used to buy the certificate is still deployed in the business. So yes, it is indeed productive capital.
If you trade with your neighbors, taking your capital out to spend and your neighbors putting their capital in as investment, then yes, that is indeed productive capital.

Should original investors be expected or required to leave their investments in the company permanently and forever, and anything else doesn't qualify as capital investment? People invest for a time and take their money out for other purposes - living expenses, etc. That is one good reason the secondary market exists, the strategic deployment of new wealth when the original investments are withdrawn for whatever reason.
If I sell some stock and use the cash to buy a sports car, I have increased economic activity.

If I sell stock and use the cash to buy more stock, and the person I sold it to does the same, and the person she sells it to does the same, etc. Then we have created an asset bubble with no underlying economic value creation.

Which is exactly why people should be spending more money in the real economy (on “enjoyable things”) instead of just buying shares on the stock market.

Back to the point of the thread, if everyone saved their money or bought stocks with it instead of buying sports cars (even with money they didn’t have, *gasp*) you don’t have to wait long to see exactly how that would manifest in the economy. In this sense, frugal Bogleheads are just free-riding on the economic activity generated by others.
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by cogito »

warner25 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:44 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:51 am The biggest envy I have, and I know this seems like a dig on my spouse but it isn't, are those who have "good jobs" and have spouses that also have "good jobs".
I feel this. It's something that has humbled me in recent years too. I got off to a good start with no college debt and a professional career, piling up savings from the age of 21, so I thought of myself as doing financially better than most people my age. That was part of my identity. However, my wife became a stay-at-home mom. After a few years, I realized that many people, whom I always considered less financially successful, were easily earning more than us with their combined incomes. When we see them buying stuff now that we wouldn't consider due to the cost, I feel incredulous until I remember this. It's a lifestyle choice with its own benefits, but it will cost us 7 figures.
I'll third this. To be honest, in HCOL it definitely at times feels like there is a lot of pressure to push my career further and further to keep up with "average" peers who just get to double their six-figure incomes and be little more sloppy with their financial discipline. We do not regret our choice to have my wife stay-at-home with the kids, we have a happy family - but it can be seriously annoying on Saturdays when I'm doing my own oil changes and lawn care because I don't want to throw a thousand bucks a year at a landscaper. And my lawn still sucks.
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