Strategy for replacing faucet/toilet water shutoff valves?

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yarnandthread
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Strategy for replacing faucet/toilet water shutoff valves?

Post by yarnandthread »

I have those cheapo multi-turn compression nut water shutoff valves in the house, 10+ years old. Needed to turn a couple of the valves off recently and they had a slight leak from the valve stem, but after turning the valves off and on a few times the leak resolved. I have heard about the much superior 1/4 turn brass ball valves so I am considering replacing them all with those to help avoid future leaks. I don't have much copper tubing clearance coming out of the walls....1/2" to 2" with the average being 1" so cutting off pipe for a fresh start would not be an option in some locations.

Question: Would you try to reuse the old compression nut and ferrule or just try to use the new ones right away?

Question: How likely would I be able to reuse the old compression nut and ferrule with the new valve and not have a leak?

Question: If I did try to reuse the old nut and ferrule and it did leak, what are the chances that using the new nut/ferrule/valve will work without cutting any pipe? I imagine I might have a depression mark from the old ferrule. Will this pose a problem using the new nut and ferrule without cutting the pipe?

Question: Can a shark bite valve be put on the pipe if it has any type of depression mark from the old ferrule? Is it doomed to fail or is it a roll of the dice?

If all else fails and they all leak, I suppose I could just put the old valve back on and later get a plumber to solder on a copper pipe extension??
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Sandtrap
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Re: Strategy for replacing faucet/toilet water shutoff valves?

Post by Sandtrap »

yarnandthread wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:49 pm I have those cheapo multi-turn compression nut water shutoff valves in the house, 10+ years old. Needed to turn a couple of the valves off recently and they had a slight leak from the valve stem, but after turning the valves off and on a few times the leak resolved. I have heard about the much superior 1/4 turn brass ball valves so I am considering replacing them all with those to help avoid future leaks. I don't have much copper tubing clearance coming out of the walls....1/2" to 2" with the average being 1" so cutting off pipe for a fresh start would not be an option in some locations.

Question: Would you try to reuse the old compression nut and ferrule or just try to use the new ones right away?

Question: How likely would I be able to reuse the old compression nut and ferrule with the new valve and not have a leak?

Question: If I did try to reuse the old nut and ferrule and it did leak, what are the chances that using the new nut/ferrule/valve will work without cutting any pipe? I imagine I might have a depression mark from the old ferrule. Will this pose a problem using the new nut and ferrule without cutting the pipe?

Question: Can a shark bite valve be put on the pipe if it has any type of depression mark from the old ferrule? Is it doomed to fail or is it a roll of the dice?

If all else fails and they all leak, I suppose I could just put the old valve back on and later get a plumber to solder on a copper pipe extension??
Unless you really want to have "fun with valves", suggest repack exist valves when they leak, then replace when you absolutely have to.
Each Angle stop valve with tight clearence comes with a 12 oz. "can of worms" and a pint of PIT.....

There was a fairly recent forum thread on replacing angle stops. Search the forum archives (upper right box) for "shutoff valve" and "leak" and "angle stop".
(click here)
viewtopic.php?t=321786&start=50

j :D
1/2" compression to 3/8" Angle Stop.
Be sure to double wrench so the copper pipe in the wall is not twisted or strained. (huge one).
Gentle. . .but firm.
Oh so gentle. . . but firm.

Use a plastic paint roller tray under the valve to catch the water. It's one of the best things that fit under these low valves. Also catch parts and gungie things. Rag under the tray.

Several wraps of teflon tape and a swipe of teflon paste on the threads before reassembly.
j :D

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Usually the compression sleeve creates a dent in the soft copper pipe so it's either cut it back a bit or cut it back even more to near the wall and extend with a sleeve and start again.

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Last edited by Sandtrap on Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:48 am, edited 4 times in total.
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cockersx3
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Re: Strategy for replacing faucet/toilet water shutoff valves?

Post by cockersx3 »

No need to remove or replace the whole valve. The stems & packing on these valves are designed to be replaced. Here's a link to the packing replacement kit at Home Depot (they are available at other vendors too, but this is the first one I thought of):

https://www.homedepot.com/p/BrassCraft- ... /204845385

Also, here's a YouTube link to an episode of This Old House in which their plumber (Richard) replaces the packing on a faucet shutoff. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI77VQPNuGY

I've done this before on a 20 year old valve, and it's pretty easy. Took less than 15 minutes, all in - took longer to shut off the water and drain the system down below this point. Good luck!
Jogger
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Re: Strategy for replacing faucet/toilet water shutoff valves?

Post by Jogger »

Recently I used some "Sharkbite" shutoff valves from Home Depot. No solder needed, just cut the pipe, rough up with sandpaper. and shove on the pipe. No leaks.
Topic Author
yarnandthread
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Re: Strategy for replacing faucet/toilet water shutoff valves?

Post by yarnandthread »

Fixing the existing multi-turn valves is an option, but I would still be left with an inferior type valve that I don't have much confidence in to prevent future leaks or fail when I simply turn the valve off or on.

How many of you would consider a multi-turn valve "faulty and bad" if you were to turn the valve after years of not being touched and have it slightly leak just temporarily around the stem but subsequently stops after turning the valve a few times back and forth to "loosen it up"?? Or is this just normal behavior for these type valves or does this signify a valve that HAS to be repaired or replaced?
Chuck107
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Re: Strategy for replacing faucet/toilet water shutoff valves?

Post by Chuck107 »

yarnandthread wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:49 pm I have those cheapo multi-turn compression nut water shutoff valves in the house, 10+ years old. Needed to turn a couple of the valves off recently and they had a slight leak from the valve stem, but after turning the valves off and on a few times the leak resolved. I have heard about the much superior 1/4 turn brass ball valves so I am considering replacing them all with those to help avoid future leaks. I don't have much copper tubing clearance coming out of the walls....1/2" to 2" with the average being 1" so cutting off pipe for a fresh start would not be an option in some locations.

Question: Would you try to reuse the old compression nut and ferrule or just try to use the new ones right away?

Question: How likely would I be able to reuse the old compression nut and ferrule with the new valve and not have a leak?

Question: If I did try to reuse the old nut and ferrule and it did leak, what are the chances that using the new nut/ferrule/valve will work without cutting any pipe? I imagine I might have a depression mark from the old ferrule. Will this pose a problem using the new nut and ferrule without cutting the pipe?

Question: Can a shark bite valve be put on the pipe if it has any type of depression mark from the old ferrule? Is it doomed to fail or is it a roll of the dice?

If all else fails and they all leak, I suppose I could just put the old valve back on and later get a plumber to solder on a copper pipe extension??
Do not use a sharkbite over any depression or damage to the copper pipe.
diy60
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Re: Strategy for replacing faucet/toilet water shutoff valves?

Post by diy60 »

1/4 turn is my preferred valve, but I normally purchase them from a plumbing supply store. Most of the valves available at the big box stores have plastic valve stems and are junk. I've had a few plastic stems break. I have also reused the old compression nuts and sleeves when it was necessary to avoid cutting into the drywall. That is not my preferred method, but it has always worked for me. One of biggest issues is over-tightening the old fittings, they can easily crack or distort. The only fix at that point is to cut into the drywall and sweat in a new pipe extension. Do not attempt to use shark bite over a indented pipe.
Chip
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Re: Strategy for replacing faucet/toilet water shutoff valves?

Post by Chip »

yarnandthread wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:30 am Fixing the existing multi-turn valves is an option, but I would still be left with an inferior type valve that I don't have much confidence in to prevent future leaks or fail when I simply turn the valve off or on.

How many of you would consider a multi-turn valve "faulty and bad" if you were to turn the valve after years of not being touched and have it slightly leak just temporarily around the stem but subsequently stops after turning the valve a few times back and forth to "loosen it up"?? Or is this just normal behavior for these type valves or does this signify a valve that HAS to be repaired or replaced?
I would not consider such a valve faulty or bad, nor would I consider that valve type significantly inferior.

Rather than set yourself up for a lot of potential problems in getting all those valves replaced, how about just opening and closing your existing valves every 6 or 12 months to keep them exercised?
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wander
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Re: Strategy for replacing faucet/toilet water shutoff valves?

Post by wander »

Youtube is your friend for this thread.
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Watty
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Re: Strategy for replacing faucet/toilet water shutoff valves?

Post by Watty »

yarnandthread wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:49 pm ....but after turning the valves off and on a few times the leak resolved.
There is an old saying, "If it isn't broken, don't fix it!"



I just ran into this with a kitchen sink faucet I was replacing myself. In my case the hot water shutoff valve was leaking and it looked like it was original to the house so it would have been 40+ years old. The cold water shutoff valve looked like it had ready been replaced at some point.

It was also behind other pipes so working on it would have been a pain to work on since I am retired now and not a limber as I was when I was 30.

I decided to bite the bullet and have a plumber come in and do it. While he was here I just had him install the new kitchen faucet too and I am glad that I did since the old one was corroded and hard to remove. He ended up cutting part of it off to get it out.
yarnandthread wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:49 pm If all else fails and they all leak, I suppose I could just put the old valve back on and later get a plumber to solder on a copper pipe extension??
I would not count on being able to put the old one back on.

One of the reasons I used a plumber was that I did not want to risk screwing it up and then having to leave the water off in the entire house while I waited for a plumber to come in.

If I screwed it up badly enough that could have also have meant that the plumber would need to go into the wall to fix it.

A big part if DIY work is knowing when to get a pro in to do some things. Unless your budget is really tight(been there done that :D ) you might want to consider having a plumber do the cutoff valve for you when it actually needs to be replaced.
Chuck107
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Re: Strategy for replacing faucet/toilet water shutoff valves?

Post by Chuck107 »

Not that this would help, but if the plumbing is accessable from underneath (unfinished basement) what I have done a few times in the past is to disconnect the copper plumbing that goes into the wall and angles into the room.
Cut the pipe flush with the wall and push it in.
plaster/compound over it.
Drill the appropiate size hole thru the floor, and run the new pipe/copper/pex/cpvc into the location and then attach a new valve.
I have mostly done this with under the sink, inside a cabinet situations. And a couple of toilets as well.

This is mainly due to not enough pipe sticking out the wall.

If you can access the plumbing under the floor easily.
Normchad
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Re: Strategy for replacing faucet/toilet water shutoff valves?

Post by Normchad »

What you describe, wouldn’t honestly bother me.

There is no doubt that a quarter turn ball valve is better. But I’ve got a bazillion of the crappy ones in my house already. Replacing them would be far more painful than keeping them, I think.

As long as I can turn off the water to my house, I’m good. I can live without water for a day if I need to fix something and the local valve doesn’t work.
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yarnandthread
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Re: Strategy for replacing faucet/toilet water shutoff valves?

Post by yarnandthread »

Chuck107 wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:13 am Not that this would help, but if the plumbing is accessable from underneath (unfinished basement) what I have done a few times in the past is to disconnect the copper plumbing that goes into the wall and angles into the room.
Cut the pipe flush with the wall and push it in.
plaster/compound over it.
Drill the appropiate size hole thru the floor, and run the new pipe/copper/pex/cpvc into the location and then attach a new valve.
I have mostly done this with under the sink, inside a cabinet situations. And a couple of toilets as well.

This is mainly due to not enough pipe sticking out the wall.

If you can access the plumbing under the floor easily.
I don't have a basement, just a concrete slab, but I do have a 2 story home hence the worry of leakage, especially from the 2nd floor.

I am really trying to get a sense of what probability of success will I have of being able to switch to the new 1/4 turn valve without having to end up resorting to cutting off some of the copper pipe.....50%, 75%, 90+%? And if I have 13 valves total to replace what is the probability that one of them would not end up working and I would HAVE to cut some pipe?? If I am doomed for failure, then it totally doesn't make sense to start the project. I just don't know how likely I am to run into problems.
Chuck107
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Re: Strategy for replacing faucet/toilet water shutoff valves?

Post by Chuck107 »

yarnandthread wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:36 pm
Chuck107 wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:13 am Not that this would help, but if the plumbing is accessable from underneath (unfinished basement) what I have done a few times in the past is to disconnect the copper plumbing that goes into the wall and angles into the room.
Cut the pipe flush with the wall and push it in.
plaster/compound over it.
Drill the appropiate size hole thru the floor, and run the new pipe/copper/pex/cpvc into the location and then attach a new valve.
I have mostly done this with under the sink, inside a cabinet situations. And a couple of toilets as well.

This is mainly due to not enough pipe sticking out the wall.

If you can access the plumbing under the floor easily.
I don't have a basement, just a concrete slab, but I do have a 2 story home hence the worry of leakage, especially from the 2nd floor.

I am really trying to get a sense of what probability of success will I have of being able to switch to the new 1/4 turn valve without having to end up resorting to cutting off some of the copper pipe.....50%, 75%, 90+%? And if I have 13 valves total to replace what is the probability that one of them would not end up working and I would HAVE to cut some pipe?? If I am doomed for failure, then it totally doesn't make sense to start the project. I just don't know how likely I am to run into problems.
Not to sound negative, but you are worried about it, and a leak on the second floor could do a lot of damage if gone unnoticed.
That and you have 13 chances for a leak more than if only replacing one.

If it were me, I would try and reuse the old nut and ferel with a new valve.
I would only do one at a time, one a week. Place a square of toilet tissue paper under the connection to check for leaks.
I would rate chance of leakage at less than 5%, but who knows one of your 13 might be the 5%'er.
Usually city water pressure is highest over night, so a leak (drip) would be then, if not right away.
Might not be a bad idea to know what your home water pressure is anyway.
MathIsMyWayr
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Re: Strategy for replacing faucet/toilet water shutoff valves?

Post by MathIsMyWayr »

Normchad wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:16 am As long as I can turn off the water to my house, I’m good. I can live without water for a day if I need to fix something and the local valve doesn’t work.
Do you have a McDonald's or big stores nearby?
Normchad
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Re: Strategy for replacing faucet/toilet water shutoff valves?

Post by Normchad »

MathIsMyWayr wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:12 pm
Normchad wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:16 am As long as I can turn off the water to my house, I’m good. I can live without water for a day if I need to fix something and the local valve doesn’t work.
Do you have a McDonald's or big stores nearby?
Ha ha ha..... when I was growing up, there were six of us and just one bathroom. So when that was getting fixed, we had to hike up to KMart.

For now, I believe I can flush each toilet once with the water shut off..... so I’m feeling okay about things......
michaelingp
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Re: Strategy for replacing faucet/toilet water shutoff valves?

Post by michaelingp »

yarnandthread wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:49 pm I have those cheapo multi-turn compression nut water shutoff valves in the house, 10+ years old. Needed to turn a couple of the valves off recently and they had a slight leak from the valve stem, but after turning the valves off and on a few times the leak resolved. I have heard about the much superior 1/4 turn brass ball valves so I am considering replacing them all with those to help avoid future leaks. I don't have much copper tubing clearance coming out of the walls....1/2" to 2" with the average being 1" so cutting off pipe for a fresh start would not be an option in some locations.
This is the kind of project I'm lucky to have a wife to talk me out of. In my experience there are unlimited ways for plumbing projects to go bad. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
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galawdawg
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Re: Strategy for replacing faucet/toilet water shutoff valves?

Post by galawdawg »

yarnandthread wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:49 pm I have those cheapo multi-turn compression nut water shutoff valves in the house, 10+ years old. Needed to turn a couple of the valves off recently and they had a slight leak from the valve stem, but after turning the valves off and on a few times the leak resolved.
Cheapo? What brand? The most common are made by Brasscraft, a brass valve with chrome plating for appearance. They are high quality and leaks are quickly, easily and inexpensively repaired with a rebuild kit.

I've been a homeowner for thirty plus years and also owned rental properties. Number of failures in that time with the multi-turn shutoff valves? Zero.
michaelingp
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Re: Strategy for replacing faucet/toilet water shutoff valves?

Post by michaelingp »

galawdawg wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:14 pm
Cheapo? What brand? The most common are made by Brasscraft, a brass valve with chrome plating for appearance. They are high quality and leaks are quickly, easily and inexpensively repaired with a rebuild kit.
With great information like this on BH, who needs any other forum? Seriously.
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Sandtrap
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Re: Strategy for replacing faucet/toilet water shutoff valves?

Post by Sandtrap »

yarnandthread wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:36 pm
Chuck107 wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:13 am Not that this would help, but if the plumbing is accessable from underneath (unfinished basement) what I have done a few times in the past is to disconnect the copper plumbing that goes into the wall and angles into the room.
Cut the pipe flush with the wall and push it in.
plaster/compound over it.
Drill the appropiate size hole thru the floor, and run the new pipe/copper/pex/cpvc into the location and then attach a new valve.
I have mostly done this with under the sink, inside a cabinet situations. And a couple of toilets as well.

This is mainly due to not enough pipe sticking out the wall.

If you can access the plumbing under the floor easily.
I don't have a basement, just a concrete slab, but I do have a 2 story home hence the worry of leakage, especially from the 2nd floor.

I am really trying to get a sense of what probability of success will I have of being able to switch to the new 1/4 turn valve without having to end up resorting to cutting off some of the copper pipe.....50%, 75%, 90+%? And if I have 13 valves total to replace what is the probability that one of them would not end up working and I would HAVE to cut some pipe?? If I am doomed for failure, then it totally doesn't make sense to start the project. I just don't know how likely I am to run into problems.
3 stories, 4 bathrooms, etc.
leak detector alarms.

j🌴
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kevinf
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Re: Strategy for replacing faucet/toilet water shutoff valves?

Post by kevinf »

If it's a compression nut fitting, just reuse the nut and ferel... no need for those to come off unless they're damage as they are all a standard size. Replace the valve itself with a new compression fit 1/4 turn and go on about your day. Pretty easy job all told, the hardest part is working in whatever tight spot they're hiding in.

If there are problems and you have a little extra pipe, you can use a sharkbite connector valve instead. If you need to cut the pipe, a copper pipe cutter/reamer is about $10 and scotchbrite or sandpaper it clean and you can use a sharkbite coupler to lengthen the pipe if you aren't comfortable soldering and the pipe would be too short after cutting.

This is a job a homeowner can do. No shame in calling a plumber though. Easy money for the tradesfolks :sharebeer
tibbitts
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Re: Strategy for replacing faucet/toilet water shutoff valves?

Post by tibbitts »

Normchad wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:16 am As long as I can turn off the water to my house, I’m good. I can live without water for a day if I need to fix something and the local valve doesn’t work.
Well, when you do need to solve the problem by soldering inside the wall, remember the water will be turned off and not available to put out a fire. I don't know a good solution to that problem - maybe get extra fire extinguishers? So you might not be as "good" as you think.
quantAndHold
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Re: Strategy for replacing faucet/toilet water shutoff valves?

Post by quantAndHold »

tibbitts wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:37 am
Normchad wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:16 am As long as I can turn off the water to my house, I’m good. I can live without water for a day if I need to fix something and the local valve doesn’t work.
Well, when you do need to solve the problem by soldering inside the wall, remember the water will be turned off and not available to put out a fire. I don't know a good solution to that problem - maybe get extra fire extinguishers? So you might not be as "good" as you think.
My high school friends’ house burned to the ground when a plumber lit some dust inside a wall.

As far as the original question. I’ve never had one of those valves just spontaneously start to leak. I’ve had drips and slow leaks when I was fiddling with it, but then I was standing there watching it, so there wasn’t really any risk of flooding the house. So I’m more of the “if it ain’t broke” mentality on this one. The worst “leak” we had was when our new puppy chewed through the supply line to the toilet when we were out to dinner. We came home to a geyser in the bathroom. A new valve would probably have just given him something better to chew on.

When I’ve had the plumber replacing fixtures, if the valve is older I’ll have him replace the valve, too. But other than that, I’m not inclined to fix things that aren’t broken.
Yes, I’m really that pedantic.
Waywayafar
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Re: Strategy for replacing faucet/toilet water shutoff valves?

Post by Waywayafar »

Below is tool I watched a plumber friend use while changing an angle stop. It has worked flawlessly for me over the last 10 years.

Compression sleeve puller:

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00065DH2W/
kevinf
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Re: Strategy for replacing faucet/toilet water shutoff valves?

Post by kevinf »

Waywayafar wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:51 pm Below is tool I watched a plumber friend use while changing an angle stop. It has worked flawlessly for me over the last 10 years.

Compression sleeve puller:

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00065DH2W/
kevinf wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:23 am If it's a compression nut fitting, just reuse the nut and ferel... no need for those to come off unless they're damage as they are all a standard size.
Lee_WSP
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Re: Strategy for replacing faucet/toilet water shutoff valves?

Post by Lee_WSP »

yarnandthread wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:49 pm I have those cheapo multi-turn compression nut water shutoff valves in the house, 10+ years old. Needed to turn a couple of the valves off recently and they had a slight leak from the valve stem, but after turning the valves off and on a few times the leak resolved. I have heard about the much superior 1/4 turn brass ball valves so I am considering replacing them all with those to help avoid future leaks. I don't have much copper tubing clearance coming out of the walls....1/2" to 2" with the average being 1" so cutting off pipe for a fresh start would not be an option in some locations.
They may be annoying to turn on/off, but the ability to repack the nut means they'll technically be able to last longer than the quarter turn version.

Question: Would you try to reuse the old compression nut and ferrule or just try to use the new ones right away?
No, I would not. Knowing what I know now, it's not a great idea for the long term.
Question: How likely would I be able to reuse the old compression nut and ferrule with the new valve and not have a leak?
50-75% is my guess, but I'm no plumber. I'm batting 3/3 (in the short term no leaks) though, so... *shrug*

The compression nuts are the worst part of the whole process.

Question: If I did try to reuse the old nut and ferrule and it did leak, what are the chances that using the new nut/ferrule/valve will work without cutting any pipe? I imagine I might have a depression mark from the old ferrule. Will this pose a problem using the new nut and ferrule without cutting the pipe?
If you were able to get it off without damaging the pipe, pretty good I'd say. The compression nut works via compression. You'd have to recreate the spot where the old compression nut created the seal. Of course, this is dependent on no major damage to the pipe end.

Question: Can a shark bite valve be put on the pipe if it has any type of depression mark from the old ferrule? Is it doomed to fail or is it a roll of the dice?
Answered earlier in the thread, no it's doomed to fail.

If all else fails and they all leak, I suppose I could just put the old valve back on and later get a plumber to solder on a copper pipe extension??
Sure, but your water main would have to be off.
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F150HD
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Re: Strategy for replacing faucet/toilet water shutoff valves?

Post by F150HD »

cockersx3 wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:41 pm No need to remove or replace the whole valve. The stems & packing on these valves are designed to be replaced. Here's a link to the packing replacement kit at Home Depot (they are available at other vendors too, but this is the first one I thought of):

https://www.homedepot.com/p/BrassCraft- ... /204845385

Also, here's a YouTube link to an episode of This Old House in which their plumber (Richard) replaces the packing on a faucet shutoff. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI77VQPNuGY

I've done this before on a 20 year old valve, and it's pretty easy. Took less than 15 minutes, all in - took longer to shut off the water and drain the system down below this point. Good luck!

In that Old House video I cringe when he swaps out a brass/copper part for 'plastic'. No way. Why not just put the o-ring (a new o-ring) on the original brass piece and reinstall?

Those multiturn (football) valves always feel like they're about to break/crack when I turn them. For anyone whose had a pipe break, its always a pucker moment turning those valves.
surfstar
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Re: Strategy for replacing faucet/toilet water shutoff valves?

Post by surfstar »

I faced this same dilemma a few years ago.

I ended up replacing the toilet shut off valves with the quality Dahl 1/4 turns, when I swapped in new ultra low flow (0.8 gpf Niagara Stealth) toilets. (I believe Kohler has a newer toilet with great reviews I'd go with now, but wasn't out then)
These valves - yes I do feel better with them installed: https://www.dahlvalve.com/products/mini-ball-valves.php
and I believe I just used a compression nut puller tool and put on a new fitting without cutting or issue. Just cleaned up the pipe a bit, no cutting. 90% sure I didn't reuse the old nut/ferrule.

I figure I will wait until sink/faucet needs work before just replacing the shut offs without a related need. Had to do the water heater last week and that is stretching my DIY-bility. Seems to be working just fine and a 9v leak alarm is what let us know it was time! Still had the original battery from almost 4 years ago when it went off (supposed to be swapped every 2).

You could try your luck on one and see how it goes... Not sure I'd tackle all of them, without related work nearby. Or replace the packing and be good for quite a few more years... I did something similar with our washer shut offs. Looks iffy to try and replace without opening up a can of worms and/or the wall, so I tracked down the same style valves and swapped out the handles and stem assemblies instead of just replacing the packing.

Could go either way - flip a coin?
Best of luck!
michaeljc70
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Re: Strategy for replacing faucet/toilet water shutoff valves?

Post by michaeljc70 »

My father (an avid DIY'r) always advocates for the 1/4 turn shutoffs. In reality, how often do you turn off the water? I put them in my master and regret it. The reason is the faucet is very powerful and the sink shallow and it is next to impossible to adjust the water flow using those 1/4 turn shutoffs. A regular shutoff would have been much easier. The 1/4 turn may be more reliable overall, but regular shutoffs tend to last a really long time.
Chuck107
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Re: Strategy for replacing faucet/toilet water shutoff valves?

Post by Chuck107 »

michaeljc70 wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:25 am My father (an avid DIY'r) always advocates for the 1/4 turn shutoffs. In reality, how often do you turn off the water? I put them in my master and regret it. The reason is the faucet is very powerful and the sink shallow and it is next to impossible to adjust the water flow using those 1/4 turn shutoffs. A regular shutoff would have been much easier. The 1/4 turn may be more reliable overall, but regular shutoffs tend to last a really long time.
Why is your faucet very powerful?
Have you checked your home water pressure?
michaeljc70
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Re: Strategy for replacing faucet/toilet water shutoff valves?

Post by michaeljc70 »

Chuck107 wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:32 am
michaeljc70 wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:25 am My father (an avid DIY'r) always advocates for the 1/4 turn shutoffs. In reality, how often do you turn off the water? I put them in my master and regret it. The reason is the faucet is very powerful and the sink shallow and it is next to impossible to adjust the water flow using those 1/4 turn shutoffs. A regular shutoff would have been much easier. The 1/4 turn may be more reliable overall, but regular shutoffs tend to last a really long time.
Why is your faucet very powerful?
Have you checked your home water pressure?
Well, it probably has more to do with the shape and depth of the sink and arc of water coming out of the faucet (waterfall style). However, I'm sure reducing the flow would have helped. The water pressure isn't a problem in any of the other bathrooms.
Topic Author
yarnandthread
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Re: Strategy for replacing faucet/toilet water shutoff valves?

Post by yarnandthread »

galawdawg wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:14 pm
yarnandthread wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:49 pm I have those cheapo multi-turn compression nut water shutoff valves in the house, 10+ years old. Needed to turn a couple of the valves off recently and they had a slight leak from the valve stem, but after turning the valves off and on a few times the leak resolved.
Cheapo? What brand? The most common are made by Brasscraft, a brass valve with chrome plating for appearance. They are high quality and leaks are quickly, easily and inexpensively repaired with a rebuild kit.

I've been a homeowner for thirty plus years and also owned rental properties. Number of failures in that time with the multi-turn shutoff valves? Zero.
The current brand of multi-turn valves is Proflo. The replacement valves I got are the Brasscraft KTCR19X-C with the brass ball valve inside instead of the plastic version.

This is a tough decision as I like to be proactive and avoid problems, but I also don't want to cause myself a current, major problem either. It seems that opinions on what I should do are varied....don't touch it, replace existing packing, replace with new valve but use old ferrule and compression nut, and replace with new valve but use the new ferrule and compression nut. My biggest concern is the upstairs bathroom, but I have only 1/2" from the existing compression nut to the escutcheon on both the toilet and the sink. Yikes.
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galawdawg
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Re: Strategy for replacing faucet/toilet water shutoff valves?

Post by galawdawg »

yarnandthread wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:24 pm
galawdawg wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:14 pm
yarnandthread wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:49 pm I have those cheapo multi-turn compression nut water shutoff valves in the house, 10+ years old. Needed to turn a couple of the valves off recently and they had a slight leak from the valve stem, but after turning the valves off and on a few times the leak resolved.
Cheapo? What brand? The most common are made by Brasscraft, a brass valve with chrome plating for appearance. They are high quality and leaks are quickly, easily and inexpensively repaired with a rebuild kit.

I've been a homeowner for thirty plus years and also owned rental properties. Number of failures in that time with the multi-turn shutoff valves? Zero.
The current brand of multi-turn valves is Proflo. The replacement valves I got are the Brasscraft KTCR19X-C with the brass ball valve inside instead of the plastic version.

This is a tough decision as I like to be proactive and avoid problems, but I also don't want to cause myself a current, major problem either. It seems that opinions on what I should do are varied....don't touch it, replace existing packing, replace with new valve but use old ferrule and compression nut, and replace with new valve but use the new ferrule and compression nut. My biggest concern is the upstairs bathroom, but I have only 1/2" from the existing compression nut to the escutcheon on both the toilet and the sink. Yikes.
Remember that the purpose of the valve is just to cut off the water to a single fixture or faucet for maintenance, repair or replacement. If the valve serves that purpose without itself leaking or allowing water flow while closed, it is working.

If you want to take preventative measures, I'd suggest that you test each shut-off valve annually, including your main shut-off. If any drip water, replace the packing nut washer. If any allow water to pass through the valve when closed, replace the valve stem washer. You can purchase packing nut washers and stem washers at Lowes, Home Depot or a plumbing supply house.

If the main shut-off fails, you may wish to contact a plumber.

Good luck!
michaelingp
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Re: Strategy for replacing faucet/toilet water shutoff valves?

Post by michaelingp »

Waywayafar wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:51 pm Below is tool I watched a plumber friend use while changing an angle stop. It has worked flawlessly for me over the last 10 years.

Compression sleeve puller:

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00065DH2W/
Very cool tool. After you remove the old compression sleeve, were you able to put a new one on the pipe? In my experience, the compression sleeve really digs itself into the pipe quite a bit.

Personally, I hate compression fittings. For me, they often leak with a brand new sleeve on brand new pipe. You have to get it exactly the right tightness, Goldilocks style. I re-did all the connections under my kitchen sink with Sharkbite and it was the best plumbing project I've ever done. If I have a choice, I'll use Sharkbite every time.
kevinf
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Re: Strategy for replacing faucet/toilet water shutoff valves?

Post by kevinf »

yarnandthread wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:24 pm
galawdawg wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:14 pm
yarnandthread wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:49 pm I have those cheapo multi-turn compression nut water shutoff valves in the house, 10+ years old. Needed to turn a couple of the valves off recently and they had a slight leak from the valve stem, but after turning the valves off and on a few times the leak resolved.
Cheapo? What brand? The most common are made by Brasscraft, a brass valve with chrome plating for appearance. They are high quality and leaks are quickly, easily and inexpensively repaired with a rebuild kit.

I've been a homeowner for thirty plus years and also owned rental properties. Number of failures in that time with the multi-turn shutoff valves? Zero.
The current brand of multi-turn valves is Proflo. The replacement valves I got are the Brasscraft KTCR19X-C with the brass ball valve inside instead of the plastic version.

This is a tough decision as I like to be proactive and avoid problems, but I also don't want to cause myself a current, major problem either. It seems that opinions on what I should do are varied....don't touch it, replace existing packing, replace with new valve but use old ferrule and compression nut, and replace with new valve but use the new ferrule and compression nut. My biggest concern is the upstairs bathroom, but I have only 1/2" from the existing compression nut to the escutcheon on both the toilet and the sink. Yikes.
Measure twice, cut once.

You can try repacking the valve stem, before you replace the valve. You can take the ferel and nut off if they don't seal properly with the new valve if you replaced it. Once the ferel and nut are off, or the pipe is cut, things can get much more difficult. Everything involved in this process is relatively inexpensive so it won't really hurt to try several options.

You can save time and money and pay for it with stress, or you can have a pro do it for more money and less time and less stress. That's really all the choice is.

I'm having one of my basement walls repaired by a mason because it's just WAY too much work for me to want to handle in my spare time. I'm handling the other three because they are in much better shape. Some things are better left to a pro if you aren't comfortable with it or don't have the time.
Reamus294
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Re: Strategy for replacing faucet/toilet water shutoff valves?

Post by Reamus294 »

I have had similar issues in my 80's house and valves not sealing. I have only replaced as I'm doing work around the valves. My pipes all had depressions when removing the compression ring and after cutting already short pipes, I started soldering on threaded fittings to the end of the copper pipe, and thread on quarter turn valves from a plumbing store. I am hoping that it will make it easier to replace next time if needed. If it is tight fitting around the fixture or you care about the orientation of the valve, care has to be taken how the fitting is soldered.
Topic Author
yarnandthread
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Re: Strategy for replacing faucet/toilet water shutoff valves?

Post by yarnandthread »

cockersx3 wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:41 pm No need to remove or replace the whole valve. The stems & packing on these valves are designed to be replaced. Here's a link to the packing replacement kit at Home Depot (they are available at other vendors too, but this is the first one I thought of):

https://www.homedepot.com/p/BrassCraft- ... /204845385

Also, here's a YouTube link to an episode of This Old House in which their plumber (Richard) replaces the packing on a faucet shutoff. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI77VQPNuGY

I've done this before on a 20 year old valve, and it's pretty easy. Took less than 15 minutes, all in - took longer to shut off the water and drain the system down below this point. Good luck!
Question: Are those Brasscraft Multi-valve stem repair kits compatible with other brands of multi-turn compression valves such as Proflo? I got the Brasscraft repair kit and their plastic stem is longer than my old Proflo stem, but both the stem washer and packing nut washers seem to be the same size. The stem washer, however, does not seem removable so I would have to use the new stem from the repair kit and if there is a compatibility issue I would then be in trouble. Also, there are no threads in the plastic stem for placing the handle screw!? Is that normal or did I get a dud? Are you supposed to just tighten that screw so that it digs into the inside of the plastic stem when installing the handle?
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galawdawg
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Re: Strategy for replacing faucet/toilet water shutoff valves?

Post by galawdawg »

yarnandthread wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:41 am Question: Are those Brasscraft Multi-valve stem repair kits compatible with other brands of multi-turn compression valves such as Proflo? I got the Brasscraft repair kit and their plastic stem is longer than my old Proflo stem, but both the stem washer and packing nut washers seem to be the same size. The stem washer, however, does not seem removable so I would have to use the new stem from the repair kit and if there is a compatibility issue I would then be in trouble. Also, there are no threads in the plastic stem for placing the handle screw!? Is that normal or did I get a dud? Are you supposed to just tighten that screw so that it digs into the inside of the plastic stem when installing the handle?
I would not think they are compatible as stems and washer sizes vary among manufacturers as you discovered. Don't attempt to fit the Brasscraft stem into your Proflo valve. However, it would be very, very unlikely if anything on your existing valve needed replacement other than the rubber (washers and o-rings). I'd recommend that you take one of your Proflo stems (washers included) to Home Depot, Lowes or a local plumbing supply house and they should be able to help you identify the correct replacement washers. If you prefer to replace the stem as well or aren't sure how the stem washer is replaced, I'd suggest you start at a local plumbing supply house.

Good luck!
Helo80
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Re: Strategy for replacing faucet/toilet water shutoff valves?

Post by Helo80 »

Waywayafar wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:51 pm Below is tool I watched a plumber friend use while changing an angle stop. It has worked flawlessly for me over the last 10 years.

Compression sleeve puller:

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00065DH2W/


Sheesh, for $30, I'm using a hacksaw and screw driver.
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