Non-investing personal finance issues including insurance, credit, real estate, taxes, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills
bgh11
Posts: 90
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:58 am

Familyman2012 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:31 pm
bgh11 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:27 pm
Familyman2012 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:20 pm Okay I know what option I should go with. But wanted to clarify before I commit to lock with better again.

Option A: 2.5% 20 year. 2500 lender credit. No escrow ABC= \$1,164– E+F=\$3,105.
They’re making me pay my property tax because it’s due with 60-90 days. Which is \$2,392. So technically my E+F=\$713
Since I don’t count my property tax as part of my loan estimate (SectionF) since I already have to pay that and have the funds in my account already.
My math is \$1164+713=\$1,877 \$2500(Lender Credit)-\$1,877= \$623 back to me.

Option B: 2.625% 20 years. 4000 lender credit. No escrow ABC= \$1,164– E+F=\$3,105. Same story above. E+F=\$713 (amount minus PT)
\$1,164+713= \$1,877 \$4000-1877= \$2,123

Payment goes up 20 dollars. But still saving 40ish dollar from my current rate of 2.875.

The difference of credit back to be is \$1500 and with 20 dollar increase it will take me 6 years to break even.

I know I’m going to go with option B. But just wanting confirmation of my thinking is correct and if I’m missing anything. And then refi again for the 3rd time if rates continue downward.

Can you get a quote from A for 2.625% and ask B for 2.5% quote?
Both of these quotes are with Better. Sorry, should’ve mentioned that.
Sorry missed the "Better" part. I would go with Option B too.
bob24
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:40 pm

What is A+B+C? Points?
Sprucebark wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 12:29 am My area isn’t competitive for mortgage rates, unfortunately. There is no such thing as a zero cost refinance for this market...and the rates are higher than what you see posted on the board here.

30 year refi
1) Lender 1- local lender. Wanted way too much.
2) Loan Depot- 3.25%, \$3,600 for A+B+C.
3) New American- 3.125%, \$3,600 for A+B+C.
4) Better- 3.25%, \$4,000 for A+B+C

I deduced to go with the best price and rate and went with #3. Now Better magically changed to \$3,000 and Loan Depot dropped their price by \$1,000. I did a rate lock with #2 and signed some initial paperwork. I’m really getting tired of all these people trying to play games and only beat what someone else gives me instead of giving me a good price to begin with.

Do you think I should try to play them off against each other or just stick with #2 and move forward? At what point should I feel bad if I decide to switch away from #2?
need403bhelp
Posts: 1124
Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 6:25 pm

bgh11 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:34 pm
Familyman2012 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:31 pm
bgh11 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:27 pm
Familyman2012 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:20 pm Okay I know what option I should go with. But wanted to clarify before I commit to lock with better again.

Option A: 2.5% 20 year. 2500 lender credit. No escrow ABC= \$1,164– E+F=\$3,105.
They’re making me pay my property tax because it’s due with 60-90 days. Which is \$2,392. So technically my E+F=\$713
Since I don’t count my property tax as part of my loan estimate (SectionF) since I already have to pay that and have the funds in my account already.
My math is \$1164+713=\$1,877 \$2500(Lender Credit)-\$1,877= \$623 back to me.

Option B: 2.625% 20 years. 4000 lender credit. No escrow ABC= \$1,164– E+F=\$3,105. Same story above. E+F=\$713 (amount minus PT)
\$1,164+713= \$1,877 \$4000-1877= \$2,123

Payment goes up 20 dollars. But still saving 40ish dollar from my current rate of 2.875.

The difference of credit back to be is \$1500 and with 20 dollar increase it will take me 6 years to break even.

I know I’m going to go with option B. But just wanting confirmation of my thinking is correct and if I’m missing anything. And then refi again for the 3rd time if rates continue downward.

Can you get a quote from A for 2.625% and ask B for 2.5% quote?
Both of these quotes are with Better. Sorry, should’ve mentioned that.
Sorry missed the "Better" part. I would go with Option B too.
So people really prefer oodles of cash back with a higher rate than close to zero cost with a lower rate?

Is this because people are happy to re-refinance at rapid intervals?
Jags4186
Posts: 5227
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:12 pm

need403bhelp wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:50 pm
bgh11 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:34 pm
Familyman2012 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:31 pm
bgh11 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:27 pm
Familyman2012 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:20 pm Okay I know what option I should go with. But wanted to clarify before I commit to lock with better again.

Option A: 2.5% 20 year. 2500 lender credit. No escrow ABC= \$1,164– E+F=\$3,105.
They’re making me pay my property tax because it’s due with 60-90 days. Which is \$2,392. So technically my E+F=\$713
Since I don’t count my property tax as part of my loan estimate (SectionF) since I already have to pay that and have the funds in my account already.
My math is \$1164+713=\$1,877 \$2500(Lender Credit)-\$1,877= \$623 back to me.

Option B: 2.625% 20 years. 4000 lender credit. No escrow ABC= \$1,164– E+F=\$3,105. Same story above. E+F=\$713 (amount minus PT)
\$1,164+713= \$1,877 \$4000-1877= \$2,123

Payment goes up 20 dollars. But still saving 40ish dollar from my current rate of 2.875.

The difference of credit back to be is \$1500 and with 20 dollar increase it will take me 6 years to break even.

I know I’m going to go with option B. But just wanting confirmation of my thinking is correct and if I’m missing anything. And then refi again for the 3rd time if rates continue downward.

Can you get a quote from A for 2.625% and ask B for 2.5% quote?
Both of these quotes are with Better. Sorry, should’ve mentioned that.
Sorry missed the "Better" part. I would go with Option B too.
So people really prefer oodles of cash back with a higher rate than close to zero cost with a lower rate?

Is this because people are happy to re-refinance at rapid intervals?
Yes and also simply for cash flow. I took \$6200 in lender credits at 2.875% vs no lender credits and 2.375%. It would take 78 months for me to make back the lender credit at the lower rate. There’s a good chance I will either refinance again or move in the next 78 months.
Familyman2012
Posts: 121
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:36 pm

Jags4186 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:58 pm
need403bhelp wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:50 pm
bgh11 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:34 pm
Familyman2012 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:31 pm
bgh11 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:27 pm

Can you get a quote from A for 2.625% and ask B for 2.5% quote?
Both of these quotes are with Better. Sorry, should’ve mentioned that.
Sorry missed the "Better" part. I would go with Option B too.
So people really prefer oodles of cash back with a higher rate than close to zero cost with a lower rate?

Is this because people are happy to re-refinance at rapid intervals?
Yes and also simply for cash flow. I took \$6200 in lender credits at 2.875% vs no lender credits and 2.375%. It would take 78 months for me to make back the lender credit at the lower rate. There’s a good chance I will either refinance again or move in the next 78 months.
I rather take the free cash now. The difference in interest if I never refi again is alittle over \$4k. That’s over 20years. I rather get over 2k back to me now. And then refi again in a few months. If rates dont drop then I’m still better off than my orignally rate of 4.3%. I’ll take the gamble that I’ll refi again. Maybe to a 15 years which I know I can get better than 2.625.

To be honest, the refi process isn’t a pain. I have all my ducks line up. If they need something. I’ll send it over.Fico over 800. Good LTV.
Shikoku
Posts: 406
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:01 pm
Location: USA

samta09 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:13 pm I just completed a refi with Better two weeks ago and spoke to an agent from Watermark to see what their rates are and costs. She said since I just refi, Waretermark is not interested to work with me because it’s a red flag for mortgage fraud. This is the first I’ve heard since many of you are doing the refi after another. I know that Lenderfi has specific language not allowing you to refi for 6 months.
It is absolutely not mortgage fraud. It is written in the loan document that people can prepay at any time. Providing incorrect information is mortgage fraud. When I talked with WM, LC, LD -- none of them had any problem to refinance immediately after a refinance.
Last edited by Shikoku on Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"I don't worry too much about pointing fingers at the past. I operate on the theory that every saint has a past, every sinner has a future." -- Warren Buffett
mrken
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:24 pm

For those who refinanced with Better.com, on which day of the month do you get the monthly statement from TMS?
InvestDoc
Posts: 44
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:54 am

Shikoku wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:20 pm
samta09 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:13 pm I just completed a refi with Better two weeks ago and spoke to an agent from Watermark to see what their rates are and costs. She said since I just refi, Waretermark is not interested to work with me because it’s a red flag for mortgage fraud. This is the first I’ve heard since many of you are doing the refi after another. I know that Lenderfi has specific language not allowing you to refi for 6 months.
It is absolutely not mortgage fraud. It is written in the loan document that people can prepay at any time. Not providing correct information is mortgage fraud. When I talked with WM, LC, LD -- none of them had any problem to refinance immediately after a refinance.
The only time you can't refinance immediately is when you do a cash out refinance, and then I believe you have to wait 6 months from what I've been told by other lenders. But it's definitely not mortgage fraud.

I've heard that some lenders take away the commission from the loan officer if you refinance within a certain time period, so maybe Watermark is like that and so they're worried that if you refinance again soon after closing with them that they'll lose their commission.
samta09
Posts: 108
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 6:45 pm

InvestDoc wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:29 pm
Shikoku wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:20 pm
samta09 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:13 pm I just completed a refi with Better two weeks ago and spoke to an agent from Watermark to see what their rates are and costs. She said since I just refi, Waretermark is not interested to work with me because it’s a red flag for mortgage fraud. This is the first I’ve heard since many of you are doing the refi after another. I know that Lenderfi has specific language not allowing you to refi for 6 months.
It is absolutely not mortgage fraud. It is written in the loan document that people can prepay at any time. Not providing correct information is mortgage fraud. When I talked with WM, LC, LD -- none of them had any problem to refinance immediately after a refinance.
The only time you can't refinance immediately is when you do a cash out refinance, and then I believe you have to wait 6 months from what I've been told by other lenders. But it's definitely not mortgage fraud.

I've heard that some lenders take away the commission from the loan officer if you refinance within a certain time period, so maybe Watermark is like that and so they're worried that if you refinance again soon after closing with them that they'll lose their commission.
I just confirmed with Better I can refinance again with them even though my previous one just completed. I won’t deal with Watermark again especially if I keep getting the same loan officer. She was not friendly nor professional in her corespondents.

To compensate my unfortunate experience at Watermark, I just locked 2.25 15 years with \$4k credit at loan cabin
Com. They’re currently going for 1.99 15 years no points. I’ll see if better will match more than just \$100, otherwise I’ll just give me business to Loancabin
anon_investor
Posts: 3751
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:43 pm

Parliamentofowls wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:29 pm
Shikoku wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:19 pm
Parliamentofowls wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 12:22 pm First time poster — super glad to have found and benefitted from this enormous thread. Here’s my question: the Mortgage Professor site connects to Keystone Funding, based in Delaware. The internet (and this thread) are full of mortgage-related companies called Keystone, making it really hard to figure out whether anyone has worked with (and more importantly, had a good experience with) this particular Keystone. Anyone have experience they can share? Thanks.

I got what I think is a pretty good estimate from them, but my spouse is convinced that we should refi with our local bank instead. Spouse says local bank is better because we have a relationship with them, they’ll have better communication/customer service, etc. They will also, unfortunately, have higher fees. I’d hate to pass up a better deal just because it’s a less-known entity to us.
Post your detail offer here. So that people can give feedback. That is the way to do it. I personally go with business that give me best offer irrespective of the relationship I have.
Thanks. I gathered that most people here pick the lender with the best terms, without regard to relationship. My question was just about this one lender though, since I’m trying to persuade over a reluctant spouse. The last several pages suggest that some of the popular lenders here aren’t amazing at customer service, and that’s definitely a consideration for peace in my household.
Maybe tell your wife how much money she is paying for the handholding and maybe she will change her tune?
akuseimark
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:58 pm

anon_investor wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:59 pm
Parliamentofowls wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:29 pm
Shikoku wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:19 pm
Parliamentofowls wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 12:22 pm First time poster — super glad to have found and benefitted from this enormous thread. Here’s my question: the Mortgage Professor site connects to Keystone Funding, based in Delaware. The internet (and this thread) are full of mortgage-related companies called Keystone, making it really hard to figure out whether anyone has worked with (and more importantly, had a good experience with) this particular Keystone. Anyone have experience they can share? Thanks.

I got what I think is a pretty good estimate from them, but my spouse is convinced that we should refi with our local bank instead. Spouse says local bank is better because we have a relationship with them, they’ll have better communication/customer service, etc. They will also, unfortunately, have higher fees. I’d hate to pass up a better deal just because it’s a less-known entity to us.
Post your detail offer here. So that people can give feedback. That is the way to do it. I personally go with business that give me best offer irrespective of the relationship I have.
Thanks. I gathered that most people here pick the lender with the best terms, without regard to relationship. My question was just about this one lender though, since I’m trying to persuade over a reluctant spouse. The last several pages suggest that some of the popular lenders here aren’t amazing at customer service, and that’s definitely a consideration for peace in my household.
Maybe tell your wife how much money she is paying for the handholding and maybe she will change her tune?
I really don’t think the handholding is really that much with a refinance unless you have a more unique situation. LenderFi also doesn’t require a ton of documents, but I submitted a fairly small batch of documents up front and the they managed the rest until closing. Other lenders may ask for more documents but really it isn’t a whole lot worse than a traditional lender that’ll try to scare you from using an “internet lender”.
Posts: 307
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:19 am

Just locked with LenderFi today.

15 yr fixed. 2.125% Cost \$700-800
Loan 765k (Super conforming)
State CA
LTV < 50% but use \$999,999 to avoid appraisal
Credit ~800

I had a 15 yr 2.875% from a few years ago and thought I was done with refi for good. But I cannot resist this low rate!
anon_investor
Posts: 3751
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:43 pm

akuseimark wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 6:02 pm
anon_investor wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:59 pm
Parliamentofowls wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:29 pm
Shikoku wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:19 pm
Parliamentofowls wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 12:22 pm First time poster — super glad to have found and benefitted from this enormous thread. Here’s my question: the Mortgage Professor site connects to Keystone Funding, based in Delaware. The internet (and this thread) are full of mortgage-related companies called Keystone, making it really hard to figure out whether anyone has worked with (and more importantly, had a good experience with) this particular Keystone. Anyone have experience they can share? Thanks.

I got what I think is a pretty good estimate from them, but my spouse is convinced that we should refi with our local bank instead. Spouse says local bank is better because we have a relationship with them, they’ll have better communication/customer service, etc. They will also, unfortunately, have higher fees. I’d hate to pass up a better deal just because it’s a less-known entity to us.
Post your detail offer here. So that people can give feedback. That is the way to do it. I personally go with business that give me best offer irrespective of the relationship I have.
Thanks. I gathered that most people here pick the lender with the best terms, without regard to relationship. My question was just about this one lender though, since I’m trying to persuade over a reluctant spouse. The last several pages suggest that some of the popular lenders here aren’t amazing at customer service, and that’s definitely a consideration for peace in my household.
Maybe tell your wife how much money she is paying for the handholding and maybe she will change her tune?
I really don’t think the handholding is really that much with a refinance unless you have a more unique situation. LenderFi also doesn’t require a ton of documents, but I submitted a fairly small batch of documents up front and the they managed the rest until closing. Other lenders may ask for more documents but really it isn’t a whole lot worse than a traditional lender that’ll try to scare you from using an “internet lender”.
I Better is pretty good at hand holding, no worse than Wells Fargo. LenderFi is no frills, but saved me the most \$. I am glad my spouse values \$ over handholding and let me do 2 refis this year.
3of10
Posts: 149
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:37 am

Hoosier CPA wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 4:19 pm
jbell3124 wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:17 pm I applied by the deadline for the AMEX credit and am currently locked with Better. Do I need to do anything else to ensure I get the credit? Will it come up or any papers be necessary through the refi process? At some point, they will need some AMEX account info from me? Just want to make sure I do what needs done (beyond applying by and closing by the required deadlines) to get the credit. I feel like I talked about it with my loan processor at the beginning but it’s been a while, and I’ve talked to a lot of people.
At one point one of the tasks was to input the last 5 digits of the amex card. I'm getting close to the finish line with them. It's been a major headache, involving several changing term sheets, but in the end I'll have about \$800 coming back (lender credits are greater than loan fees) and the \$2,500 credit. I refi'd with my local/existing lender in July at 3.0% for 20 years. I'm getting 2.875% for 30 with Better, but it's been a frustrating process to say the least. I keep thinking about pulling the plug on it but \$3,300 is \$3,300.
+1. The amount of documentation that Better requests can be substantial. As BrandonBogle has stated, dealing with them with a standard refi situation (W2, no liens, no heloc,...) is probably fine. But, if there are any extra criteria, it can be a hassle with the number of tasks they list. In my case, I had over 30 tasks that I had to respond to.

What helped me was to look at it as a job, and deal with it in that mindset. I also did a lot of reading up on the "Fannie Mae Guidelines" (most of the tasks were based on the guidelines so that Better can package the loan and send to FM). As a result, I was able to get some tasks removed, and others corrected by telling them what the FM guidelines requested from the borrower (different from what the task requested). It has been a long process.
Shikoku
Posts: 406
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:01 pm
Location: USA

anon_investor wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 6:08 pm
akuseimark wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 6:02 pm
anon_investor wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:59 pm
Parliamentofowls wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:29 pm
Shikoku wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:19 pm
Post your detail offer here. So that people can give feedback. That is the way to do it. I personally go with business that give me best offer irrespective of the relationship I have.
Thanks. I gathered that most people here pick the lender with the best terms, without regard to relationship. My question was just about this one lender though, since I’m trying to persuade over a reluctant spouse. The last several pages suggest that some of the popular lenders here aren’t amazing at customer service, and that’s definitely a consideration for peace in my household.
Maybe tell your wife how much money she is paying for the handholding and maybe she will change her tune?
I really don’t think the handholding is really that much with a refinance unless you have a more unique situation. LenderFi also doesn’t require a ton of documents, but I submitted a fairly small batch of documents up front and the they managed the rest until closing. Other lenders may ask for more documents but really it isn’t a whole lot worse than a traditional lender that’ll try to scare you from using an “internet lender”.
I Better is pretty good at hand holding, no worse than Wells Fargo. LenderFi is no frills, but saved me the most \$. I am glad my spouse values \$ over handholding and let me do 2 refis this year.
I just lock the rate first and tell her then that how much money we will save to avoid all the drama. Lol!
"I don't worry too much about pointing fingers at the past. I operate on the theory that every saint has a past, every sinner has a future." -- Warren Buffett
JohnSmith123
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:24 pm

How did you get this? When I go online, they have the same for about \$3660 in costs? (\$1600 points + other costs)?

MiddleOfTheRoad wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 6:06 pm Just locked with LenderFi today.

15 yr fixed. 2.125% Cost \$700-800
Loan 765k (Super conforming)
State CA
LTV < 50% but use \$999,999 to avoid appraisal
Credit ~800

I had a 15 yr 2.875% from a few years ago and thought I was done with refi for good. But I cannot resist this low rate!
Posts: 307
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:19 am

JohnSmith123 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 6:30 pm How did you get this? When I go online, they have the same for about \$3660 in costs? (\$1600 points + other costs)?

MiddleOfTheRoad wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 6:06 pm Just locked with LenderFi today.

15 yr fixed. 2.125% Cost \$700-800
Loan 765k (Super conforming)
State CA
LTV < 50% but use \$999,999 to avoid appraisal
Credit ~800

I had a 15 yr 2.875% from a few years ago and thought I was done with refi for good. But I cannot resist this low rate!
I went through their page also. It was 2.25%. They called back and offered 2.125 with minimal cost without any questions from me. I didn’t even bother asking for the no cost option.
I have been spying on rates/cost at LenderFi for a while. Rates/cost are usually lower in the morning.
jjhk121
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:09 am

I'm confused about having to pay property taxes at closing if you close within 60 days of when your property taxes are due.

I'm currently on schedule to close with LenderFi around Sept. 5th which is within 60 days of when my first property tax payment would be due, Nov. 1st.

I don't have an escrow account.

Will I have to come to closing with that first property tax payment? My county doesn't even send the bill until late September.
Goal33
Posts: 1511
Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2015 12:30 pm

jjhk121 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:18 pm I'm confused about having to pay property taxes at closing if you close within 60 days of when your property taxes are due.

I'm currently on schedule to close with LenderFi around Sept. 5th which is within 60 days of when my first property tax payment would be due, Nov. 1st.

I don't have an escrow account.

Will I have to come to closing with that first property tax payment? My county doesn't even send the bill until late September.
Where did you hear this? I sure hope not.
Thrifty Femme
Posts: 537
Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2015 1:54 pm

samta09 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:56 pm I just confirmed with Better I can refinance again with them even though my previous one just completed. I won’t deal with Watermark again especially if I keep getting the same loan officer. She was not friendly nor professional in her corespondents.

To compensate my unfortunate experience at Watermark, I just locked 2.25 15 years with \$4k credit at loan cabin
Com. They’re currently going for 1.99 15 years no points. I’ll see if better will match more than just \$100, otherwise I’ll just give me business to Loancabin
BrandonBogle
Posts: 3334
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:19 pm

jjhk121 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:18 pm I'm confused about having to pay property taxes at closing if you close within 60 days of when your property taxes are due.

I'm currently on schedule to close with LenderFi around Sept. 5th which is within 60 days of when my first property tax payment would be due, Nov. 1st.

I don't have an escrow account.

Will I have to come to closing with that first property tax payment? My county doesn't even send the bill until late September.
Generally speaking, yes. The settlement agent is supposed to get a tax certification. Typically, if that is due within 60 days, the settlement agent will have that collected and it will be added to your closing disclosures if it is not already in your loan estimate. Having or not having an escrow does not play a role with this, but I’m sure it will vary by lender and settlement agent how they do it too. In the end, this shouldn’t matter as your tax bill would be due soon and you would be paying it anyways?!?

In my area, the bill is “due” Sept 1, but there is no penalty until January 2nd. So a settlement agent or lender may take the tact that the bill isn’t really due until over 60 days, or they may go by the “due” date on the initial bill.
Goal33
Posts: 1511
Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2015 12:30 pm

BrandonBogle wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:24 pm
jjhk121 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:18 pm I'm confused about having to pay property taxes at closing if you close within 60 days of when your property taxes are due.

I'm currently on schedule to close with LenderFi around Sept. 5th which is within 60 days of when my first property tax payment would be due, Nov. 1st.

I don't have an escrow account.

Will I have to come to closing with that first property tax payment? My county doesn't even send the bill until late September.
Generally speaking, yes. The settlement agent is supposed to get a tax certification. Typically, if that is due within 60 days, the settlement agent will have that collected and it will be added to your closing disclosures if it is not already in your loan estimate. Having or not having an escrow does not play a role with this, but I’m sure it will vary by lender and settlement agent how they do it too. In the end, this shouldn’t matter as your tax bill would be due soon and you would be paying it anyways?!?

In my area, the bill is “due” Sept 1, but there is no penalty until January 2nd. So a settlement agent or lender may take the tact that the bill isn’t really due until over 60 days, or they may go by the “due” date on the initial bill.
Sigh. Wish my refi wasn’t so delayed and this wasn’t a new factor!

Mine will technically be due November 1st tho no penalty until December 10th.

The thing is the bills aren’t even generated until mid-October. Will be interesting to see how that changes the calculus.
jjhk121
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:09 am

BrandonBogle wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:24 pm
jjhk121 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:18 pm I'm confused about having to pay property taxes at closing if you close within 60 days of when your property taxes are due.

I'm currently on schedule to close with LenderFi around Sept. 5th which is within 60 days of when my first property tax payment would be due, Nov. 1st.

I don't have an escrow account.

Will I have to come to closing with that first property tax payment? My county doesn't even send the bill until late September.
Generally speaking, yes. The settlement agent is supposed to get a tax certification. Typically, if that is due within 60 days, the settlement agent will have that collected and it will be added to your closing disclosures if it is not already in your loan estimate. Having or not having an escrow does not play a role with this, but I’m sure it will vary by lender and settlement agent how they do it too. In the end, this shouldn’t matter as your tax bill would be due soon and you would be paying it anyways?!?

In my area, the bill is “due” Sept 1, but there is no penalty until January 2nd. So a settlement agent or lender may take the tact that the bill isn’t really due until over 60 days, or they may go by the “due” date on the initial bill.

Yeah it doesn't matter much, I could just do without having to send the bill to the settlement company and making sure it gets paid. My delinquent date is December 10 so I hope they use that date when calculating the 60 days.
Shikoku
Posts: 406
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:01 pm
Location: USA

InvestDoc wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:29 pm
Shikoku wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:20 pm
samta09 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:13 pm I just completed a refi with Better two weeks ago and spoke to an agent from Watermark to see what their rates are and costs. She said since I just refi, Waretermark is not interested to work with me because it’s a red flag for mortgage fraud. This is the first I’ve heard since many of you are doing the refi after another. I know that Lenderfi has specific language not allowing you to refi for 6 months.
It is absolutely not mortgage fraud. It is written in the loan document that people can prepay at any time. Not providing correct information is mortgage fraud. When I talked with WM, LC, LD -- none of them had any problem to refinance immediately after a refinance.
The only time you can't refinance immediately is when you do a cash out refinance, and then I believe you have to wait 6 months from what I've been told by other lenders. But it's definitely not mortgage fraud.

I've heard that some lenders take away the commission from the loan officer if you refinance within a certain time period, so maybe Watermark is like that and so they're worried that if you refinance again soon after closing with them that they'll lose their commission.
Most of the mortgage paperwork have some statements like the following:

"Mortgage Fraud is investigated by the Federal Bureau of Investigation and is punishable by up to 30 years in federal prison or \$1,000,000 fine, or both. It is illegal for a person to make any false statement regarding income, assets, debt, or matters of identification, or to willfully overvalue any land or property, in a loan and credit application for the purpose of influencing in any way the action of a financial institution."

Refinancing immediately after refinancing is not one of them!
"I don't worry too much about pointing fingers at the past. I operate on the theory that every saint has a past, every sinner has a future." -- Warren Buffett
samta09
Posts: 108
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 6:45 pm

Thrifty Femme wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:45 pm
samta09 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:56 pm I just confirmed with Better I can refinance again with them even though my previous one just completed. I won’t deal with Watermark again especially if I keep getting the same loan officer. She was not friendly nor professional in her corespondents.

To compensate my unfortunate experience at Watermark, I just locked 2.25 15 years with \$4k credit at loan cabin
Com. They’re currently going for 1.99 15 years no points. I’ll see if better will match more than just \$100, otherwise I’ll just give me business to Loancabin
342k
kmanjir
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:45 pm

BrandonBogle wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:57 pm
kmanjir wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 11:04 am
BrandonBogle wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:23 am You do realize that this same question was asked just one page ago? Did you see the answer to it being asked then?
Hi Brandon - Thanks for the pointer, I did glance at it yesterday, but I thought it was more related to the waiting for the Amex credit before starting the process again. With that said, this (mega)thread has been the exception in terms of trying to keep up with. I think I was quite well read up till Page 84, then I had to give up.

Thanks again to you and all the other folks here who have provided so much guidance and insight on this topic.
Thank you. I hope I wasn't too snarky. I do appreciate you read so many pages. I recall when I first came to this thread having to read all the pages and realize its an onerous task. I'm glad you got it figured out!

For reference, in my current refi, I did the initial application before my then-current refi was preparing to close. However, I didn't give an "intent to proceed" until 48 hours after funding. For documentation, they accepted my prior closing disclosures just fine.
Not at all
And I do appreciate your (and others') consistent voice of guidance, explanations and clarifications, as well as that spreadsheet that you had shared a while back, that was invaluable. I think it is fair to say I would have spent this year procrastinating if I had not come across the refinance megathread, and then regretted it later.

Also, sharing my refinance data point for this thread:

- I did it with Northpointe Bank, moving from 4% to 2.875%, and 30-years to 15-years.
- Closed in mid-August.
- Was a true no-cost refi, with a credit of ~\$100 above and beyond (A+B+C+E)
- Northpointe was a pleasure to work with, they were very prompt to respond any time I had a question, kept me in the loop all throughout, and did not make a single mistake during the process (to my knowledge). They did take a wee bit longer to close than I would have liked (1.5 months end to end), but they were upfront about it from the beginning and said that they were prioritizing new purchase loans over refinances.
need403bhelp
Posts: 1124
Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 6:25 pm

BrandonBogle wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:24 pm Generally speaking, yes. The settlement agent is supposed to get a tax certification. Typically, if that is due within 60 days, the settlement agent will have that collected and it will be added to your closing disclosures if it is not already in your loan estimate. Having or not having an escrow does not play a role with this, but I’m sure it will vary by lender and settlement agent how they do it too. In the end, this shouldn’t matter as your tax bill would be due soon and you would be paying it anyways?!?

In my area, the bill is “due” Sept 1, but there is no penalty until January 2nd. So a settlement agent or lender may take the tact that the bill isn’t really due until over 60 days, or they may go by the “due” date on the initial bill.
Sorry to hijack. I think this was mentioned previously somewhere in this thread, but I can't find it.

How much cash can I receive at closing before it is considered a "cash-out" refinance?

Is this state specific?

Thank you!
Shikoku
Posts: 406
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:01 pm
Location: USA

need403bhelp wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:50 pm
BrandonBogle wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:24 pm Generally speaking, yes. The settlement agent is supposed to get a tax certification. Typically, if that is due within 60 days, the settlement agent will have that collected and it will be added to your closing disclosures if it is not already in your loan estimate. Having or not having an escrow does not play a role with this, but I’m sure it will vary by lender and settlement agent how they do it too. In the end, this shouldn’t matter as your tax bill would be due soon and you would be paying it anyways?!?

In my area, the bill is “due” Sept 1, but there is no penalty until January 2nd. So a settlement agent or lender may take the tact that the bill isn’t really due until over 60 days, or they may go by the “due” date on the initial bill.
Sorry to hijack. I think this was mentioned previously somewhere in this thread, but I can't find it.

How much cash can I receive at closing before it is considered a "cash-out" refinance?

Is this state specific?

Thank you!
2K. It is not state specific. Edit: Texas appears to be an exception.
Last edited by Shikoku on Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"I don't worry too much about pointing fingers at the past. I operate on the theory that every saint has a past, every sinner has a future." -- Warren Buffett
need403bhelp
Posts: 1124
Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 6:25 pm

Shikoku wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:55 pm
need403bhelp wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:50 pm
BrandonBogle wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:24 pm Generally speaking, yes. The settlement agent is supposed to get a tax certification. Typically, if that is due within 60 days, the settlement agent will have that collected and it will be added to your closing disclosures if it is not already in your loan estimate. Having or not having an escrow does not play a role with this, but I’m sure it will vary by lender and settlement agent how they do it too. In the end, this shouldn’t matter as your tax bill would be due soon and you would be paying it anyways?!?

In my area, the bill is “due” Sept 1, but there is no penalty until January 2nd. So a settlement agent or lender may take the tact that the bill isn’t really due until over 60 days, or they may go by the “due” date on the initial bill.
Sorry to hijack. I think this was mentioned previously somewhere in this thread, but I can't find it.

How much cash can I receive at closing before it is considered a "cash-out" refinance?

Is this state specific?

Thank you!
2K. It is not state specific.
Ok, thank you. If I am asked by the lender, is there a good reference for this? Thanks!
Shikoku
Posts: 406
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:01 pm
Location: USA

need403bhelp wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:56 pm
Shikoku wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:55 pm
need403bhelp wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:50 pm
BrandonBogle wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:24 pm Generally speaking, yes. The settlement agent is supposed to get a tax certification. Typically, if that is due within 60 days, the settlement agent will have that collected and it will be added to your closing disclosures if it is not already in your loan estimate. Having or not having an escrow does not play a role with this, but I’m sure it will vary by lender and settlement agent how they do it too. In the end, this shouldn’t matter as your tax bill would be due soon and you would be paying it anyways?!?

In my area, the bill is “due” Sept 1, but there is no penalty until January 2nd. So a settlement agent or lender may take the tact that the bill isn’t really due until over 60 days, or they may go by the “due” date on the initial bill.
Sorry to hijack. I think this was mentioned previously somewhere in this thread, but I can't find it.

How much cash can I receive at closing before it is considered a "cash-out" refinance?

Is this state specific?

Thank you!
2K. It is not state specific.
Ok, thank you. If I am asked by the lender, is there a good reference for this? Thanks!
http://www.freddiemac.com/learn/pdfs/uw/refinance.pdf

https://guide.freddiemac.com/app/guide/section/4301.4
"I don't worry too much about pointing fingers at the past. I operate on the theory that every saint has a past, every sinner has a future." -- Warren Buffett
manatee2005
Posts: 1074
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:17 pm

sharker10 wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:03 pm
keystone wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:35 pm For those following Watermark, a friend of mine initiated the process a couple of days after me in late July and is now scheduled for closing on August 28th. So they appear to be moving forward with the applications that were locked prior to the adverse market fee.
Good to know! I initiated August 5th, and just moved into underwriting process late yesterday.
Wow that’s crazy. I initiated on August 1 and I don’t know if I’m in the underwriting process yet.
dfeucht
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:04 pm

manatee2005 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:30 pm
sharker10 wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:03 pm
keystone wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:35 pm For those following Watermark, a friend of mine initiated the process a couple of days after me in late July and is now scheduled for closing on August 28th. So they appear to be moving forward with the applications that were locked prior to the adverse market fee.
Good to know! I initiated August 5th, and just moved into underwriting process late yesterday.
Wow that’s crazy. I initiated on August 1 and I don’t know if I’m in the underwriting process yet.
For additional reference. I initiated with Watermark Aug 4th and also got an email noting I moved to underwriting process this Tue Aug 25. Will update with full timeline once this closes. 2nd refi this year (first with Northpointe) with lenders and rates I would have never found without this thread - and believe I searched on my own many many times.

I’m in MN so many lenders in here aren’t available bit still was able to find rates that worked well for me so thank you to all for your contributions here.
need403bhelp
Posts: 1124
Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 6:25 pm

BrandonBogle wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:24 pm Generally speaking, yes. The settlement agent is supposed to get a tax certification. Typically, if that is due within 60 days, the settlement agent will have that collected and it will be added to your closing disclosures if it is not already in your loan estimate. Having or not having an escrow does not play a role with this, but I’m sure it will vary by lender and settlement agent how they do it too. In the end, this shouldn’t matter as your tax bill would be due soon and you would be paying it anyways?!?
Thank you!

So I have a dilemma.

Two offers for 30 year fixed:

Lender #1 - 2.5%, ready to close
A = \$0, B = \$214, C = \$1,376.10, E = \$114, Lender Credits = -\$3,076 plus additional \$2,500 post-closing statement credit
A + B + C + E + Lender credits = -\$1371.90
With AMEX post-closing credit would be -\$3,871.90

Lender #2 - 2.375%, “conditionally approved”
A = \$1,499, B = \$179, C = \$1,154, E = \$172, Lender Credits = -\$3,049
A + B + C + E + Lender credits = -\$45.00

On the one hand, I’m sick of rate shopping and really was aiming for 2.375% no-cost, so lender #2 would be the way to go from that perspective. Also the loan officer has been great!

On the other hand, I’m trying to be objective. I made amortization tables in Excel for both loans, and it seems that, in terms of the difference in total interest paid, it would take between 9 years (if AMEX credit is taxable) and 12 years (if AMEX credit is not taxable) for lender #2 to come out ahead given the large “cash in hand” for lender #1. Also, I like that I can “see the finish line” (possible closing this week) with lender #1 despite having locked with them a few days after lender #2.

Any thoughts or advice? Really appreciate everyone’s help!

Edited to fix typo.
a010z
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2014 12:32 pm

Shikoku wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:55 pm
need403bhelp wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:50 pm Sorry to hijack. I think this was mentioned previously somewhere in this thread, but I can't find it.

How much cash can I receive at closing before it is considered a "cash-out" refinance?

Is this state specific?

Thank you!
2K. It is not state specific.
What if the payoff amount was greater than \$2k and the previous lender gave you back a refund that is greater than \$2k?
Or does this not count as a "cash-out" refinance?
(Does a cash-out refinance specifically state it is a cash-out in the loan estimate, or some document?)
anon_investor
Posts: 3751
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:43 pm

need403bhelp wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:26 pm
BrandonBogle wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:24 pm Generally speaking, yes. The settlement agent is supposed to get a tax certification. Typically, if that is due within 60 days, the settlement agent will have that collected and it will be added to your closing disclosures if it is not already in your loan estimate. Having or not having an escrow does not play a role with this, but I’m sure it will vary by lender and settlement agent how they do it too. In the end, this shouldn’t matter as your tax bill would be due soon and you would be paying it anyways?!?
Thank you!

So I have a dilemma.

Two offers for 30 year fixed:

Lender #1 - 2.5%, ready to close
A = \$0, B = \$214, C = \$1,376.10, E = \$114, Lender Credits = -\$3,076 plus additional \$2,500 post-closing statement credit
A + B + C + E + Lender credits = -\$1371.90
With AMEX post-closing credit would be -\$3,871.90

Lender #2 - 2.375%, “conditionally approved”
A = \$1,499, B = \$179, C = \$1,154, E = \$172, Lender Credits = -\$3,049
A + B + C + E + Lender credits = -\$45.00

On the one hand, I’m sick of rate shopping and really was aiming for 2.375% no-cost, so lender #2 would be the way to go from that perspective. Also the loan officer has been great!

On the other hand, I’m trying to be objective. I made amortization tables in Excel for both loans, and it seems that, in terms of the difference in total interest paid, it would take between 9 years (if AMEX credit is taxable) and 12 years (if AMEX credit is not taxable) for lender #2 to come out ahead given the large “cash in hand” for lender #1. Also, I like that I can “see the finish line” (possible closing this week) with lender #1 despite having locked with them a few days after lender #2.

Any thoughts or advice? Really appreciate everyone’s help!

Edited to fix typo.
Pick Lender #1 hands down. Amex statement credit is not taxable, so 12 year break even. Sure bet and ready to close makes it even more of a no brainer.
BrandonBogle
Posts: 3334
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:19 pm

need403bhelp wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:26 pm On the one hand, I’m sick of rate shopping and really was aiming for 2.375% no-cost, so lender #2 would be the way to go from that perspective. Also the loan officer has been great!

On the other hand, I’m trying to be objective. I made amortization tables in Excel for both loans, and it seems that, in terms of the difference in total interest paid, it would take between 9 years (if AMEX credit is taxable) and 12 years (if AMEX credit is not taxable) for lender #2 to come out ahead given the large “cash in hand” for lender #1. Also, I like that I can “see the finish line” (possible closing this week) with lender #1 despite having locked with them a few days after lender #2.

Any thoughts or advice? Really appreciate everyone’s help!

Edited to fix typo.
What’s Better’s cost for 2.375%? You can change the rate you locked to any other length or rate that was on the your rate table the day you locked. So perhaps some of the \$1,371.90 to buy down to 2.375% and still come out ahead after the Amex credit.

This is ultimately what I’m doing. Earlier in the thread I posted my entire rate table for 15 year and 30 year (though 20 year and ARMs are options I can pick). This is because it would take years for me to come out ahead at the lower rate. Lots can change over the next decade and even if I don’t go lower, I’m at most losing less than \$5k. My cash today is better used elsewhere.
need403bhelp
Posts: 1124
Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 6:25 pm

BrandonBogle wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:42 pm
need403bhelp wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:26 pm On the one hand, I’m sick of rate shopping and really was aiming for 2.375% no-cost, so lender #2 would be the way to go from that perspective. Also the loan officer has been great!

On the other hand, I’m trying to be objective. I made amortization tables in Excel for both loans, and it seems that, in terms of the difference in total interest paid, it would take between 9 years (if AMEX credit is taxable) and 12 years (if AMEX credit is not taxable) for lender #2 to come out ahead given the large “cash in hand” for lender #1. Also, I like that I can “see the finish line” (possible closing this week) with lender #1 despite having locked with them a few days after lender #2.

Any thoughts or advice? Really appreciate everyone’s help!

Edited to fix typo.
What’s Better’s cost for 2.375%? You can change the rate you locked to any other length or rate that was on the your rate table the day you locked. So perhaps some of the \$1,371.90 to buy down to 2.375% and still come out ahead after the Amex credit.

This is ultimately what I’m doing. Earlier in the thread I posted my entire rate table for 15 year and 30 year (though 20 year and ARMs are options I can pick). This is because it would take years for me to come out ahead at the lower rate. Lots can change over the next decade and even if I don’t go lower, I’m at most losing less than \$5k. My cash today is better used elsewhere.

I wish 2.375% 30 year fixed was on my rate table, but it is not and they won’t budge on giving me that rate.

FWIW, the difference in interest over the entire 30 years between the two loans is \$6598.04, so I guess I could think of it as them giving me half the difference between the two loans but all up front.
BrandonBogle
Posts: 3334
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:19 pm

need403bhelp wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:01 am Thanks for your advice re going with lender #1.

I wish 2.375% 30 year fixed was on my rate table, but it is not and they won’t budge on giving me that rate.

FWIW, the difference in interest over the entire 30 years between the two loans is \$6598.04, so I guess I could think of it as them giving me half the difference between the two loans but all up front.
Don’t forget the time value of money and potential inflation (if you believe we’d have inflation over the next 30 years).
ZMonet
Posts: 75
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:43 pm

dfeucht wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:08 pm
manatee2005 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:30 pm
sharker10 wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:03 pm
keystone wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:35 pm For those following Watermark, a friend of mine initiated the process a couple of days after me in late July and is now scheduled for closing on August 28th. So they appear to be moving forward with the applications that were locked prior to the adverse market fee.
Good to know! I initiated August 5th, and just moved into underwriting process late yesterday.
Wow that’s crazy. I initiated on August 1 and I don’t know if I’m in the underwriting process yet.
For additional reference. I initiated with Watermark Aug 4th and also got an email noting I moved to underwriting process this Tue Aug 25. Will update with full timeline once this closes. 2nd refi this year (first with Northpointe) with lenders and rates I would have never found without this thread - and believe I searched on my own many many times.

I’m in MN so many lenders in here aren’t available bit still was able to find rates that worked well for me so thank you to all for your contributions here.
You might already know this but you can check the ongoing status of your application on Watermark's website after you log in. In initiated 8/5 and have been in "conditional approval" (the step after "submitted to underwriting") for about 10 days.
KeepinItPositive
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:46 am

On my refi with better, I asked for other rate/terms options before the initial closing disclosure was generated but they said their system was showing me as “ineligible” for any other combos. I’m trying to figure out what was going on in case I do another one.

Anyone else run into this?
Shikoku
Posts: 406
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:01 pm
Location: USA

need403bhelp wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:01 am
BrandonBogle wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:42 pm
need403bhelp wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:26 pm On the one hand, I’m sick of rate shopping and really was aiming for 2.375% no-cost, so lender #2 would be the way to go from that perspective. Also the loan officer has been great!

On the other hand, I’m trying to be objective. I made amortization tables in Excel for both loans, and it seems that, in terms of the difference in total interest paid, it would take between 9 years (if AMEX credit is taxable) and 12 years (if AMEX credit is not taxable) for lender #2 to come out ahead given the large “cash in hand” for lender #1. Also, I like that I can “see the finish line” (possible closing this week) with lender #1 despite having locked with them a few days after lender #2.

Any thoughts or advice? Really appreciate everyone’s help!

Edited to fix typo.
What’s Better’s cost for 2.375%? You can change the rate you locked to any other length or rate that was on the your rate table the day you locked. So perhaps some of the \$1,371.90 to buy down to 2.375% and still come out ahead after the Amex credit.

This is ultimately what I’m doing. Earlier in the thread I posted my entire rate table for 15 year and 30 year (though 20 year and ARMs are options I can pick). This is because it would take years for me to come out ahead at the lower rate. Lots can change over the next decade and even if I don’t go lower, I’m at most losing less than \$5k. My cash today is better used elsewhere.

I wish 2.375% 30 year fixed was on my rate table, but it is not and they won’t budge on giving me that rate.

FWIW, the difference in interest over the entire 30 years between the two loans is \$6598.04, so I guess I could think of it as them giving me half the difference between the two loans but all up front.
I would also select lender #1 and am in agreement with you that rate shopping is tiring but may be you would like to refinance just one more time after AMEX credit is received to lower the rate again. As far as I understand, the rate is not going anywhere. BTW, who is lender #2?
"I don't worry too much about pointing fingers at the past. I operate on the theory that every saint has a past, every sinner has a future." -- Warren Buffett
Shikoku
Posts: 406
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:01 pm
Location: USA

anon_investor wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:41 pm ... Amex statement credit is not taxable ...
I am unsure if this statement is entirely true. Here is what AMEX had posted with the offer. May be there were discussions on this issue but I did not follow the thread long back.
"The value of the statement credit may be taxable income to you, and you are responsible for any federal, state or other taxes resulting from the credit. Consult your tax advisor if you have any questions about the tax treatment of your statement credit."
"I don't worry too much about pointing fingers at the past. I operate on the theory that every saint has a past, every sinner has a future." -- Warren Buffett
anon_investor
Posts: 3751
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:43 pm

Shikoku wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:53 am
anon_investor wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:41 pm ... Amex statement credit is not taxable ...
I am unsure if this statement is entirely true. Here is what AMEX had posted with the offer. May be there were discussions on this issue but I did not follow the thread long back.
"The value of the statement credit may be taxable income to you, and you are responsible for any federal, state or other taxes resulting from the credit. Consult your tax advisor if you have any questions about the tax treatment of your statement credit."
I have received Amex statement credits for other things and they don't issue a 1099, so I assume they're treated like credit card rewards which are not taxed.
Shikoku
Posts: 406
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:01 pm
Location: USA

anon_investor wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:16 am
Shikoku wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:53 am
anon_investor wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:41 pm ... Amex statement credit is not taxable ...
I am unsure if this statement is entirely true. Here is what AMEX had posted with the offer. May be there were discussions on this issue but I did not follow the thread long back.
"The value of the statement credit may be taxable income to you, and you are responsible for any federal, state or other taxes resulting from the credit. Consult your tax advisor if you have any questions about the tax treatment of your statement credit."
I have received Amex statement credits for other things and they don't issue a 1099, so I assume they're treated like credit card rewards which are not taxed.
That is good news. I hope the AMEX credit from Better will be treated like credit people receive from Costco Anywhere VISA or Citi Double Cash Card.
"I don't worry too much about pointing fingers at the past. I operate on the theory that every saint has a past, every sinner has a future." -- Warren Buffett
BrandonBogle
Posts: 3334
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:19 pm

Shikoku wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:26 am
anon_investor wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:16 am
Shikoku wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:53 am
anon_investor wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:41 pm ... Amex statement credit is not taxable ...
I am unsure if this statement is entirely true. Here is what AMEX had posted with the offer. May be there were discussions on this issue but I did not follow the thread long back.
"The value of the statement credit may be taxable income to you, and you are responsible for any federal, state or other taxes resulting from the credit. Consult your tax advisor if you have any questions about the tax treatment of your statement credit."
I have received Amex statement credits for other things and they don't issue a 1099, so I assume they're treated like credit card rewards which are not taxed.
That is good news. I hope the AMEX credit from Better will be treated like credit people receive from Costco Anywhere VISA or Citi Double Cash Card.
The jury is still out on that and ultimately (IMO) will be based whether a 1099 is issued. Amex has issued 1099’s for certain credit card promos in the past. When I spoke to their “personal savings” division, that group was running the same kind of promo, but the \$2,500 goes to the savings account vs. the credit card (and the promo was invite-only), which would get a 1099 for it. So we shall see. But my gut says it will be like other credit cards rewards and a rebate vs. income.
jco
Posts: 211
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:53 am

How do you determine what amount to request in your refinance? (Assuming you simply want to pay off your old loan and not do a cash-out refi).

I hope to start shopping this next week for rates. It seems likely I'd close sometime near the end of September or early October. The October 1st payoff amount is about \$269,500. Interest is about \$25 per day. If I closed prior to October 1st, I'd pay pay slightly under \$269,500 to close out the loan. If I closed after October 1st, I'd pay \$268,800 + \$25 per day after the 1st.

I'm thinking I should get refinance quotes for \$269,000. If I close prior to October 1st, I'll have to bring a few hundred dollars of cash to the table. If I close after October 1st, then I might be financing a little of my escrow.

Or can I simply get the quotes for \$269,000 and then update the exact amount financed once the payoff date is established? In my last refinance, they simply went with the initial amount I told them, so I want to be careful.

Any insight is appreciated!
thrillhou
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:55 am

jco wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:17 am How do you determine what amount to request in your refinance? (Assuming you simply want to pay off your old loan and not do a cash-out refi).

I hope to start shopping this next week for rates. It seems likely I'd close sometime near the end of September or early October. The October 1st payoff amount is about \$269,500. Interest is about \$25 per day. If I closed prior to October 1st, I'd pay pay slightly under \$269,500 to close out the loan. If I closed after October 1st, I'd pay \$268,800 + \$25 per day after the 1st.

I'm thinking I should get refinance quotes for \$269,000. If I close prior to October 1st, I'll have to bring a few hundred dollars of cash to the table. If I close after October 1st, then I might be financing a little of my escrow.

Or can I simply get the quotes for \$269,000 and then update the exact amount financed once the payoff date is established? In my last refinance, they simply went with the initial amount I told them, so I want to be careful.

Any insight is appreciated!
What I went through in the past month might be an example. I submitted online to a few places for my current balance amount. Even doing that, lenders wrote me back with my credit report amount -- which was one payment more than the current balance. Then, in working on the application, I needed to make a monthly payment, so my balance decreased. In the end, you just need to stay on top of what the documents say and understand the fees and credits so you know when to ask for a loan amount change to what you want. They made a change just a few days before signing, and others on here have posted that changes were made just hours before signing final notarized docs.

So for you, since you're proactively aware of the payoff on October 1, the lenders are likely going to initially put your loan amount at ~maybe \$271k (my estimate of last month's balance). Just be ready to push it lower; which it seems you're prepared well to do.
mrmicro
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:58 am

need403bhelp wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:26 pm
BrandonBogle wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:24 pm Generally speaking, yes. The settlement agent is supposed to get a tax certification. Typically, if that is due within 60 days, the settlement agent will have that collected and it will be added to your closing disclosures if it is not already in your loan estimate. Having or not having an escrow does not play a role with this, but I’m sure it will vary by lender and settlement agent how they do it too. In the end, this shouldn’t matter as your tax bill would be due soon and you would be paying it anyways?!?
Thank you!

So I have a dilemma.

Two offers for 30 year fixed:

Lender #1 - 2.5%, ready to close
A = \$0, B = \$214, C = \$1,376.10, E = \$114, Lender Credits = -\$3,076 plus additional \$2,500 post-closing statement credit
A + B + C + E + Lender credits = -\$1371.90
With AMEX post-closing credit would be -\$3,871.90

Lender #2 - 2.375%, “conditionally approved”
A = \$1,499, B = \$179, C = \$1,154, E = \$172, Lender Credits = -\$3,049
A + B + C + E + Lender credits = -\$45.00

On the one hand, I’m sick of rate shopping and really was aiming for 2.375% no-cost, so lender #2 would be the way to go from that perspective. Also the loan officer has been great!

On the other hand, I’m trying to be objective. I made amortization tables in Excel for both loans, and it seems that, in terms of the difference in total interest paid, it would take between 9 years (if AMEX credit is taxable) and 12 years (if AMEX credit is not taxable) for lender #2 to come out ahead given the large “cash in hand” for lender #1. Also, I like that I can “see the finish line” (possible closing this week) with lender #1 despite having locked with them a few days after lender #2.

Any thoughts or advice? Really appreciate everyone’s help!

Edited to fix typo.
Wow, you got great rates. Lender 1 sounds like the way to go.
I am also looking for a 30 year no cost refinance at 2.5. Can you share who Lender #2 is
LikeIke
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:07 pm

I just closed with LenderFi on Wednesday the 29th. I applied at multiple places over the course of a week approximately a month ago. I just had another hard credit pull show up on my report last night, presumably from one of the websites/lenders that had not yet gotten back to me with rates. Since it is more than 14 days from the ones that pulled my credit a month ago it shows that we had 2 hard pulls. Is there any way for me to dispute this? If I contact the credit bureau would they consider lumping this in with the other credit pulls? If I contact the bank, is there any way they can cancel this to get it off my credit report?
jjhk121
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:09 am