charging an EV

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ballons
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Re: charging an EV

Post by ballons »

emoore wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:18 pm Lots of EV misconceptions here.

Like mentioned earlier Tesla has by far the best charging network in the US right now. That will probably get challenged in the next 5 years with electrify america and some oil companies getting into the charging station market to offset losses from oil.

As for stopping for 20 plus minutes to fully charge, you have to change your driving habit. Instead of driving to empty and the fill up 100% like ICE, you would drive to 10-20% and charge up to 80% which is the fastest. Getting from 80 to 100% takes a long time. So assuming you stop every 3-4 hours, that's ~250 miles, then stopping for 20 minutes probably is a good idea anyway (bathroom breaks, food, stretch, etc). There are some (very few) that want to be able to fill up and go in 5 minutes and then drive another 300 miles. That's an extreme case that you can't really do right now with an EV but there will be 500+ mile EVs in a few years time.

Overall I would say just get an EV and not worry about it. Like said earlier, if necessary rent an ICE and use that until the charging network matures. And your EV will have less and less of an environmental impact as the grid gets cleaner, ICE environment impacts are fixed for the life of the car.
Chargers need to be attached to some kind of covered convenience store/food place with bathrooms. The uncovered, very limited parking spot idea is terrible. Tesla trip planner disagrees with your 5 minute stops:

Standard range:
20 min charge
45 min charge
35 min charge
40 min charge
35 min charge
(669 mi) 14 hours

Extended range 373 mile:
5 min charge
30 min charge
25 min charge
25 min charge
25 min charge
12 h 29 min (669 mi)

All above superchargers are 8 spots so if you are number 9 each time, you wait.
ballons
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Re: charging an EV

Post by ballons »

BuckyBadger wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:19 pm
ballons wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:18 pm
BuckyBadger wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:05 pm An electric engine had about 20 moving parts. An ICE engine has about 2,000. EVs should last considerably longer with significantly less maintenance aside from tires and brakes pads.
Except for that whole expensive battery replacement thing.
That's just a lazy straw man argument.

Batteries don't routinely require replacement and technology continues improving. There is an initial degradation that then levels out and new battery technology is reducing even that.

Surely you could work a little harder to find a better dig at EVs?
You didn't say electric motors will last longer but the entire electronic vehicle which includes the battery. "New battery technology" costs how much to swap in to an older EV?

You are on bogleheads where people hold on to vehicles much longer. 10, 15, 20, and up to 25 years old.
BuckyBadger
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Re: charging an EV

Post by BuckyBadger »

ballons wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:42 pm
BuckyBadger wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:19 pm
ballons wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:18 pm
BuckyBadger wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:05 pm An electric engine had about 20 moving parts. An ICE engine has about 2,000. EVs should last considerably longer with significantly less maintenance aside from tires and brakes pads.
Except for that whole expensive battery replacement thing.
That's just a lazy straw man argument.

Batteries don't routinely require replacement and technology continues improving. There is an initial degradation that then levels out and new battery technology is reducing even that.

Surely you could work a little harder to find a better dig at EVs?
You didn't say electric motors will last longer but the entire electronic vehicle which includes the battery. "New battery technology" costs how much to swap in to an older EV?

You are on bogleheads where people hold on to vehicles much longer. 10, 15, 20, and up to 25 years old.
An average ev battery lasts 200,000 miles. At about 20 years, that's good enough for most people. And that's just average.

Anti EV people always select the edge case. Not every ICE car lasts 25 years.
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4nursebee
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Location: US

Re: charging an EV

Post by 4nursebee »

BuckyBadger wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:24 pm
emoore wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:18 pm Lots of EV misconceptions here.
Perhaps some misconceptions.

Lots of intentional ignorance, too.
Hear hear!

I've never had to wait at a charger. East Coast I-95
My car tells me how many stalls are available before I get there.
Pale Blue Dot
BuckyBadger
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Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:28 am

Re: charging an EV

Post by BuckyBadger »

4nursebee wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:04 pm
BuckyBadger wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:24 pm
emoore wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:18 pm Lots of EV misconceptions here.
Perhaps some misconceptions.

Lots of intentional ignorance, too.
Hear hear!

I've never had to wait at a charger. East Coast I-95
My car tells me how many stalls are available before I get there.
That's my experience as well.

Look.

I'm not going to tell someone that an EV is for them if they have to, or think they have to, drive 1200 miles a day with no bathroom stops and only eating hamburgers on the road.

But an EV and some sort of home charging is enough for 95 prevent of people 95 precent of the time. It just is. Everything else is just people hating EVs for no good reason.
Normchad
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Re: charging an EV

Post by Normchad »

BuckyBadger wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:02 pm
4nursebee wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:04 pm
BuckyBadger wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:24 pm
emoore wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:18 pm Lots of EV misconceptions here.
Perhaps some misconceptions.

Lots of intentional ignorance, too.
Hear hear!

I've never had to wait at a charger. East Coast I-95
My car tells me how many stalls are available before I get there.
That's my experience as well.

Look.

I'm not going to tell someone that an EV is for them if they have to, or think they have to, drive 1200 miles a day with no bathroom stops and only eating hamburgers on the road.

But an EV and some sort of home charging is enough for 95 prevent of people 95 precent of the time. It just is. Everything else is just people hating EVs for no good reason.
+1. Well said. For me, it's like having a gas station at my house; a luxury I never would have imagined in the past. But it is just awesome! I've only been to the supercharger 4 times this year, and it was a cool novelty for me, I guess. I could always watch Netflix on that huge screen in the dash if I got bored :)

I don't need to take those types of super long trips, I will just fly. That's not for everybody of course, but it's good enough for lots and lots of people.

Markets with abundant choices are great for us as consumers. People should choose/buy whatever suits them best. It's an EV for a lot of people, but for some people, it just won't cut it today. That's okay, people will probably buy about 15 million ICE vehicles in America this year. To me, it seems obvious that eventually we all be driving EVs. I just don't know when that will happen, or if it will happen at all.... I'll just watch and see how that plays out in the market place. Major manufacturers keep saying they are committed to an electric future; but they seem more interested in talking than in making something compelling.

Honestly though, I do wonder what it is like to own an EV from Nissan/Chevy/Ford whatever for charging away from home. The impression I get is that charging for them, is a complete mess. But I'd be interested to hear if it's chaotic and spotty as it seems....
squirm
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Re: charging an EV

Post by squirm »

There's a huge difference between taking a like a Leaf on a road trip and a Tesla.

Hopefully EA will improve from it's terrible roll-out of chargers over time.
ballons
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Re: charging an EV

Post by ballons »

BuckyBadger wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:12 pm
ballons wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:42 pm
BuckyBadger wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:19 pm
ballons wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:18 pm
BuckyBadger wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:05 pm An electric engine had about 20 moving parts. An ICE engine has about 2,000. EVs should last considerably longer with significantly less maintenance aside from tires and brakes pads.
Except for that whole expensive battery replacement thing.
That's just a lazy straw man argument.

Batteries don't routinely require replacement and technology continues improving. There is an initial degradation that then levels out and new battery technology is reducing even that.

Surely you could work a little harder to find a better dig at EVs?
You didn't say electric motors will last longer but the entire electronic vehicle which includes the battery. "New battery technology" costs how much to swap in to an older EV?

You are on bogleheads where people hold on to vehicles much longer. 10, 15, 20, and up to 25 years old.
An average ev battery lasts 200,000 miles. At about 20 years, that's good enough for most people. And that's just average.

Anti EV people always select the edge case. Not every ICE car lasts 25 years.
Why doesn't even tesla believe this?
  • Model S and Model X – 8 years or 150,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.
  • Model 3 and Model Y Standard or Standard Range Plus - 8 years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.
  • Model 3 and Model Y Long Range or Performance - 8 years or 120,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.
8 years of average mileage is 108,000 miles. 30% reduction in mileage is seen as acceptable. ICE can hit 200,000 easily; EV should be 500,000+ with battery changes.

Not wanting to throw a perfectly working electric motor in the trash because the battery sucks makes a person "Anti EV?" I'm more optimistic about EV than you.
BuckyBadger
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Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:28 am

Re: charging an EV

Post by BuckyBadger »

ballons wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:52 pm
BuckyBadger wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:12 pm
ballons wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:42 pm
BuckyBadger wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:19 pm
ballons wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:18 pm

Except for that whole expensive battery replacement thing.
That's just a lazy straw man argument.

Batteries don't routinely require replacement and technology continues improving. There is an initial degradation that then levels out and new battery technology is reducing even that.

Surely you could work a little harder to find a better dig at EVs?
You didn't say electric motors will last longer but the entire electronic vehicle which includes the battery. "New battery technology" costs how much to swap in to an older EV?

You are on bogleheads where people hold on to vehicles much longer. 10, 15, 20, and up to 25 years old.
An average ev battery lasts 200,000 miles. At about 20 years, that's good enough for most people. And that's just average.

Anti EV people always select the edge case. Not every ICE car lasts 25 years.
Why doesn't even tesla believe this?
  • Model S and Model X – 8 years or 150,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.
  • Model 3 and Model Y Standard or Standard Range Plus - 8 years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.
  • Model 3 and Model Y Long Range or Performance - 8 years or 120,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.
8 years of average mileage is 108,000 miles. 30% reduction in mileage is seen as acceptable. ICE can hit 200,000 easily; EV should be 500,000+ with battery changes.

Not wanting to throw a perfectly working electric motor in the trash because the battery sucks makes a person "Anti EV?" I'm more optimistic about EV than you.
Those are warranty numbers. Quite likely that the batteries and cars will last much longer than than.

I didn't realize one was supposed to throw out ones car when the warranty expired.
Last edited by BuckyBadger on Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Slacker
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Joined: Thu May 26, 2016 8:40 am

Re: charging an EV

Post by Slacker »

ballons wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:52 pm
BuckyBadger wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:12 pm
ballons wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:42 pm
BuckyBadger wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:19 pm
ballons wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:18 pm

Except for that whole expensive battery replacement thing.
That's just a lazy straw man argument.

Batteries don't routinely require replacement and technology continues improving. There is an initial degradation that then levels out and new battery technology is reducing even that.

Surely you could work a little harder to find a better dig at EVs?
You didn't say electric motors will last longer but the entire electronic vehicle which includes the battery. "New battery technology" costs how much to swap in to an older EV?

You are on bogleheads where people hold on to vehicles much longer. 10, 15, 20, and up to 25 years old.
An average ev battery lasts 200,000 miles. At about 20 years, that's good enough for most people. And that's just average.

Anti EV people always select the edge case. Not every ICE car lasts 25 years.
Why doesn't even tesla believe this?
  • Model S and Model X – 8 years or 150,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.
  • Model 3 and Model Y Standard or Standard Range Plus - 8 years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.
  • Model 3 and Model Y Long Range or Performance - 8 years or 120,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.
8 years of average mileage is 108,000 miles. 30% reduction in mileage is seen as acceptable. ICE can hit 200,000 easily; EV should be 500,000+ with battery changes.

Not wanting to throw a perfectly working electric motor in the trash because the battery sucks makes a person "Anti EV?" I'm more optimistic about EV than you.
If looking at warranties, then ford, Toyota, gm, hyundai, et al think ICE only last 50,000 to 100,000 miles and not your claimed 200,000.
Afty
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Re: charging an EV

Post by Afty »

Slacker wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:35 pm
ballons wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:52 pm
BuckyBadger wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:12 pm
ballons wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:42 pm
BuckyBadger wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:19 pm

That's just a lazy straw man argument.

Batteries don't routinely require replacement and technology continues improving. There is an initial degradation that then levels out and new battery technology is reducing even that.

Surely you could work a little harder to find a better dig at EVs?
You didn't say electric motors will last longer but the entire electronic vehicle which includes the battery. "New battery technology" costs how much to swap in to an older EV?

You are on bogleheads where people hold on to vehicles much longer. 10, 15, 20, and up to 25 years old.
An average ev battery lasts 200,000 miles. At about 20 years, that's good enough for most people. And that's just average.

Anti EV people always select the edge case. Not every ICE car lasts 25 years.
Why doesn't even tesla believe this?
  • Model S and Model X – 8 years or 150,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.
  • Model 3 and Model Y Standard or Standard Range Plus - 8 years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.
  • Model 3 and Model Y Long Range or Performance - 8 years or 120,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.
8 years of average mileage is 108,000 miles. 30% reduction in mileage is seen as acceptable. ICE can hit 200,000 easily; EV should be 500,000+ with battery changes.

Not wanting to throw a perfectly working electric motor in the trash because the battery sucks makes a person "Anti EV?" I'm more optimistic about EV than you.
If looking at warranties, then ford, Toyota, gm, hyundai, et al think ICE only last 50,000 to 100,000 miles and not your claimed 200,000.
Toyota’s warranty is only 3 yrs/36k miles. I guess Toyota doesn’t believe in their cars’ ability to last past 36k miles.
davehica
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Joined: Sun May 18, 2014 3:07 pm

Re: charging an EV

Post by davehica »

Normchad wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:09 pm I bought an EV a year ago. I absolutely love it.
+1. We got a Kia Niro and it's great. No range anxiety whatsoever, and I've taken it on 3k mile road trips. Definitely had a few close calls on range in parts of the country where there are few fast chargers, but it's doable with a little more planning. At home, I charge about once per week on a 30amp 7kw charger I had installed. Charges to 100% by morning.
financial.freedom
Posts: 553
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:18 am

Re: charging an EV

Post by financial.freedom »

I've had ICE, hybrid, and now EV. Definitely prefer the EV. No issue with charging -- there's apps to find places if you're going on a road trip, but usually charge at work (for free) or at home. If I were road-tripping, would prob just time the charging with a bathroom stop. Doesn't seem like a big deal.

There's a lot of ways to reduce pollution, and it's nice that you're thinking about the environment. But as mentioned upthread -- ICE vs EV pollution kind of depends upon where you live. The single best thing you can do to reduce carbon foot print is plant-based diet. The effect is far bigger than cutting down on your flights or buying an electric car. Not eating meat and dairy products can reduce a person’s carbon footprint by up to 73% [Poore J., Nemecek T. Reducing food’s environmental impacts through producers and consumers. Science. 2018;360:987–992.]

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/ ... 2/987.long
jm1495
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Re: charging an EV

Post by jm1495 »

Tenesmus83 wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:02 pm I like the idea of reducing pollution so I'm looking at buying an electric vehicle. My main concern is that the small number of charging
stations which would limit long-distance trips. Also, having to wait more than 20 min for a full charge is just too much time.
Anyone have similar hesitation?
The great thing about my Tesla is that I don't have to "wait" while the oil gets changed, or any other maintenance is done. I don't have to wait at a gas station for my car to refuel when I'm at home. The few cases where I'm on a road trip and have to supercharge I usually need to stop to use the restroom, eat, stretch my legs, walk the dog etc. In the rare case that I have absolutely nothing to do while supercharging I can watch Hulu, Netflix, or YouTube for a few minutes.

Is charging on a road trip as convenient as having a gas station on every corner of every exit on the highway? No. Is it offset by not feeling mentally fatigued because of autopilot, having entertainment options, not having to wait for fill ups, or service appointments. Absolutely. I've driven 40k miles in two years and wouldn't trade it for anything.
BuckyBadger
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Re: charging an EV

Post by BuckyBadger »

jm1495 wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:02 am
Tenesmus83 wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:02 pm I like the idea of reducing pollution so I'm looking at buying an electric vehicle. My main concern is that the small number of charging
stations which would limit long-distance trips. Also, having to wait more than 20 min for a full charge is just too much time.
Anyone have similar hesitation?
The great thing about my Tesla is that I don't have to "wait" while the oil gets changed, or any other maintenance is done. I don't have to wait at a gas station for my car to refuel when I'm at home. The few cases where I'm on a road trip and have to supercharge I usually need to stop to use the restroom, eat, stretch my legs, walk the dog etc. In the rare case that I have absolutely nothing to do while supercharging I can watch Hulu, Netflix, or YouTube for a few minutes.

Is charging on a road trip as convenient as having a gas station on every corner of every exit on the highway? No. Is it offset by not feeling mentally fatigued because of autopilot, having entertainment options, not having to wait for fill ups, or service appointments. Absolutely. I've driven 40k miles in two years and wouldn't trade it for anything.
Good point! If you consider overall time saved by not having to go to a gas station since December, that definitely makes up for any charging time spent on a long trip - if you're considering overall lifetime time saving.
squirm
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Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:53 am

Re: charging an EV

Post by squirm »

IMO another benefit of owning a Tesla over another brand such as a Bolt or Leaf is the possibility of getting ICED when you need a charge. Superchargers stalls are less likely to be ICED than say EA stalls.
bagle
Posts: 92
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:59 am

Re: charging an EV

Post by bagle »

BuckyBadger wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:16 am
jm1495 wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:02 am
Tenesmus83 wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:02 pm I like the idea of reducing pollution so I'm looking at buying an electric vehicle. My main concern is that the small number of charging
stations which would limit long-distance trips. Also, having to wait more than 20 min for a full charge is just too much time.
Anyone have similar hesitation?
The great thing about my Tesla is that I don't have to "wait" while the oil gets changed, or any other maintenance is done. I don't have to wait at a gas station for my car to refuel when I'm at home. The few cases where I'm on a road trip and have to supercharge I usually need to stop to use the restroom, eat, stretch my legs, walk the dog etc. In the rare case that I have absolutely nothing to do while supercharging I can watch Hulu, Netflix, or YouTube for a few minutes.

Is charging on a road trip as convenient as having a gas station on every corner of every exit on the highway? No. Is it offset by not feeling mentally fatigued because of autopilot, having entertainment options, not having to wait for fill ups, or service appointments. Absolutely. I've driven 40k miles in two years and wouldn't trade it for anything.
Good point! If you consider overall time saved by not having to go to a gas station since December, that definitely makes up for any charging time spent on a long trip - if you're considering overall lifetime time saving.


+1. As a Tesla owner, I often feel sorry for ICE drivers when I drive past the gas station and see them waiting to fill up. For 99% of my trips, there is zero wait: I simply plug my car in at night at home or park it in the VIP area of the mall or downtown (where "gas" is free).

For the 1% of my trips that are long-distance, I've had to change habits. I'll have a cup of coffee, hit the restroom, check email, get off my butt for about 20 minutes, but I find that refreshing after a couple of hours of driving on the highway (despite fatigue-reducing autopilot).
Normchad
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Re: charging an EV

Post by Normchad »

davehica wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:38 pm
Normchad wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:09 pm I bought an EV a year ago. I absolutely love it.
+1. We got a Kia Niro and it's great. No range anxiety whatsoever, and I've taken it on 3k mile road trips. Definitely had a few close calls on range in parts of the country where there are few fast chargers, but it's doable with a little more planning. At home, I charge about once per week on a 30amp 7kw charger I had installed. Charges to 100% by morning.
Thanks, that’s really good to know. The Niro gets a lot of great reviews, I assume you’re very happy too?

On your long distance trips, how was the price of charging compared to gas?
investor997
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Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: charging an EV

Post by investor997 »

Normchad wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:35 am On your long distance trips, how was the price of charging compared to gas?
Let's do the math.

A Tesla Model 3 consumes about 280 Wh/mi when driving on the highway and a typical Tesla Supercharger (here in CA) dispenses juice at about $0.32/kWh. It costs just under $0.09/mi in electricity to drive.

Suppose I was driving a BMW 330i instead (a comparable ICE car). The BMW is rated at 36 MPG and we'll use $3.50/gal for the price of premium fuel (here in CA). This means it costs $0.097/mi to drive the BMW.

In other parts of the country where gas is cheaper than CA, the BMW will cost less to drive on the highway than the Tesla, but not by much.

Important note: In "around town" driving, it will cost much less to drive the Tesla, because:
- Off-peak electricity cost at home is way less than a Supercharger, in some cases less than $0.10/kWh
- Tesla consumption is less around town than on the highway (regenerative braking, lower speeds)
- ICE cars like the BMW have much higher fuel consumption (city vs. highway MPG)

TL;DR: It costs about the same to drive a Tesla on a road trip as it does a comparable ICE car
Normchad
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Re: charging an EV

Post by Normchad »

investor997 wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:17 pm
Normchad wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:35 am On your long distance trips, how was the price of charging compared to gas?
Let's do the math.

A Tesla Model 3 consumes about 280 Wh/mi when driving on the highway and a typical Tesla Supercharger (here in CA) dispenses juice at about $0.32/kWh. It costs just under $0.09/mi in electricity to drive.

Suppose I was driving a BMW 330i instead (a comparable ICE car). The BMW is rated at 36 MPG and we'll use $3.50/gal for the price of premium fuel (here in CA). This means it costs $0.097/mi to drive the BMW.

In other parts of the country where gas is cheaper than CA, the BMW will cost less to drive on the highway than the Tesla, but not by much.

Important note: In "around town" driving, it will cost much less to drive the Tesla, because:
- Off-peak electricity cost at home is way less than a Supercharger, in some cases less than $0.10/kWh
- Tesla consumption is less around town than on the highway (regenerative braking, lower speeds)
- ICE cars like the BMW have much higher fuel consumption (city vs. highway MPG)

TL;DR: It costs about the same to drive a Tesla on a road trip as it does a comparable ICE car
Thanks. I appreciate you doing the math.

As a Tesla owner, I was actually more interested in knowing how much charging was for the Kia Niro driver. I just have no sense of that.
freckles01
Posts: 136
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2008 4:43 pm

Re: charging an EV

Post by freckles01 »

fareastwarriors wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:57 pm
Tenesmus83 wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:02 pm I like the idea of reducing pollution so I'm looking at buying an electric vehicle. My main concern is that the small number of charging stations which would limit long-distance trips. Also, having to wait more than 20 min for a full charge is just too much time.
Anyone have similar hesitation?
Best way is just drive less.
this *if you want to be less of a environmental polluter- just drive less*

car brakes, tires and resulting road wear cause a significant amount of particle pollution. an electric car still contributes to this pollution.

walk, scoot or ride a bike for local errands. these low tech modes are healthy (for u) and does not pollute the environment.

buy an electric bike instead of an electric car- much cheaper than any EV car, healthy, easy to charge, greatly expands your bikeable range, does not contribute to particle pollution and is FUN!

rent a car for long distance- easy.
User avatar
wander
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Re: charging an EV

Post by wander »

freckles01 wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:11 pm
fareastwarriors wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:57 pm
Tenesmus83 wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:02 pm I like the idea of reducing pollution so I'm looking at buying an electric vehicle. My main concern is that the small number of charging stations which would limit long-distance trips. Also, having to wait more than 20 min for a full charge is just too much time.
Anyone have similar hesitation?
Best way is just drive less.
this *if you want to be less of a environmental polluter- just drive less*

car brakes, tires and resulting road wear cause a significant amount of particle pollution. an electric car still contributes to this pollution.

walk, scoot or ride a bike for local errands. these low tech modes are healthy (for u) and does not pollute the environment.

buy an electric bike instead of an electric car- much cheaper than any EV car, healthy, easy to charge, greatly expands your bikeable range, does not contribute to particle pollution and is FUN!

rent a car for long distance- easy.
If you like an EV, it's fine. But if you think buying an EV to save the environment, then it is not a straight cut like many think.
Will Your Electric Car Save the World or Wreck It?
cusetownusa
Posts: 479
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:54 am

Re: charging an EV

Post by cusetownusa »

ballons wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:52 pm
BuckyBadger wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:12 pm
ballons wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:42 pm
BuckyBadger wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:19 pm
ballons wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:18 pm

Except for that whole expensive battery replacement thing.
That's just a lazy straw man argument.

Batteries don't routinely require replacement and technology continues improving. There is an initial degradation that then levels out and new battery technology is reducing even that.

Surely you could work a little harder to find a better dig at EVs?
You didn't say electric motors will last longer but the entire electronic vehicle which includes the battery. "New battery technology" costs how much to swap in to an older EV?

You are on bogleheads where people hold on to vehicles much longer. 10, 15, 20, and up to 25 years old.
An average ev battery lasts 200,000 miles. At about 20 years, that's good enough for most people. And that's just average.

Anti EV people always select the edge case. Not every ICE car lasts 25 years.
Why doesn't even tesla believe this?
  • Model S and Model X – 8 years or 150,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.
  • Model 3 and Model Y Standard or Standard Range Plus - 8 years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.
  • Model 3 and Model Y Long Range or Performance - 8 years or 120,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.
8 years of average mileage is 108,000 miles. 30% reduction in mileage is seen as acceptable. ICE can hit 200,000 easily; EV should be 500,000+ with battery changes.

Not wanting to throw a perfectly working electric motor in the trash because the battery sucks makes a person "Anti EV?" I'm more optimistic about EV than you.
Do ICE cars have warranties longer than 8 years or 150,000 miles? I know mine didn't...warranty ended after 5 years. EV can hit 200,000 easily as well.

I don't have an EV or any skin in this debate...but that is a pretty week argument using the warranty as some sort indication of how long something will last. By your logic my car's engine should have only lasted 5 years or 60,000 miles.
dsmclone
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Re: charging an EV

Post by dsmclone »

CheckMate404 wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:30 pm
Tenesmus83 wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:02 pm I like the idea of reducing pollution so I'm looking at buying an electric vehicle. My main concern is that the small number of charging
stations which would limit long-distance trips. Also, having to wait more than 20 min for a full charge is just too much time.
Anyone have similar hesitation?
la.

We spent more time looking for and getting gas, than we spent waiting for a charge. By a lot.
This seems a little odd to me. I can't remember the last time I wasn't within 15 minutes of a gas station and I just went on a 9 day road trip to Yellowstone. On the other hand, there were times where I would have been 100 miles away from a Tesla Supercharger in these remote locations. With that said, I love Tesla and once they clean up their fit/finish I'll probably get one.
squirm
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Re: charging an EV

Post by squirm »

We easily put 40k-45k miles every year on our cars. We also have an EV. Gasing the car is way quicker and easier than charging when on a road trip. Ten minutes tops with signs everywhere pointing to easily accessible stations along the way. It's not a knock on ev's, I just like to be realistic.
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mmmodem
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Re: charging an EV

Post by mmmodem »

Tenesmus83 wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:02 pm I like the idea of reducing pollution so I'm looking at buying an electric vehicle. My main concern is that the small number of charging
stations which would limit long-distance trips. Also, having to wait more than 20 min for a full charge is just too much time.
Anyone have similar hesitation?
It takes at least 10 minutes to gas up our other car. Occasionally longer if I choose to wait at a cheap Costco station. A couple minutes to turn into a gas station on my way, 5 minutes to fill and another couple minutes to turn back onto the road. Fill up twice a month and there goes 20 minutes. 26 times a year is 4.3 hours. Fill up every week and we're near 9 hours.

It takes me probably 5 seconds to plug in my EV while walking away from my car and 5 seconds to unplug. 10 seconds x 365 days a year is about an hour. I don't drive every day so this is more time than I spend charging.

It saves me 3 to 8 hours a year to charge an EV instead of filling up with gasoline. When we travel, we rent a gasoline car. I don't public charge unless it's free. 10 cents a mile For electricity (calculation from poster above) is too rich for my blood. Some say it takes too long to charge an EV, I say it takes too long to fill up with gasoline.
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Re: charging an EV

Post by stoptothink »

dsmclone wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:20 pm
CheckMate404 wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:30 pm
Tenesmus83 wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:02 pm I like the idea of reducing pollution so I'm looking at buying an electric vehicle. My main concern is that the small number of charging
stations which would limit long-distance trips. Also, having to wait more than 20 min for a full charge is just too much time.
Anyone have similar hesitation?
la.

We spent more time looking for and getting gas, than we spent waiting for a charge. By a lot.
This seems a little odd to me. I can't remember the last time I wasn't within 15 minutes of a gas station and I just went on a 9 day road trip to Yellowstone. On the other hand, there were times where I would have been 100 miles away from a Tesla Supercharger in these remote locations. With that said, I love Tesla and once they clean up their fit/finish I'll probably get one.
I have zero interest in buying another ICE car, nonetheless there is a very obvious current downside to EVs - the fueling time and infrastructure in the context of longer drives - and twisting into a pretzel trying to rationalize it away gets pretty amusing, fast. I have seen multiple EV owners try to suggest refueling an ICE car is some huge inconvenience (or even downright dangerous a few times), and I can't do anything but roll my eyes.

In 23yrs of driving I've never run out of gas because I couldn't find a gas station when I needed one, I've never felt in danger at a gas station despite having been raised in one of the worst ghettos in the nation and lived for 5yrs in another, and I might have waited at a pump before (for a minute or two), but I couldn't even recall the last time it happened.
Last edited by stoptothink on Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ballons
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Re: charging an EV

Post by ballons »

cusetownusa wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:03 pm Do ICE cars have warranties longer than 8 years or 150,000 miles? I know mine didn't...warranty ended after 5 years. EV can hit 200,000 easily as well.

I don't have an EV or any skin in this debate...but that is a pretty week argument using the warranty as some sort indication of how long something will last. By your logic my car's engine should have only lasted 5 years or 60,000 miles.
10 year; 100,000 with KIA and Hyundai. Electric motors can go way longer, its just the battery longevity preventing that.

The claim is that "an average ev battery lasts 200,000 miles. At about 20 years, that's good enough for most people. And that's just average." I am pointing out that the manufacturer themselves have zero confidence in such a claim.

Did your ICE lose 30% of its EPA mileage during that period? You would sue if that happened. Outside of the warranty, you would look to fix your ICE engine to get back that mileage. Including the cost to "fix" an EV back to its original mileage range is part of the TCO for those that hold on to the EV like they did ICE.
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Re: charging an EV

Post by squirm »

I've gone out in the morning leaving for work and realized I have forgotten to plug the car in the night before. With gas, not an issue. Colleagues who drive an EV to work have done the same, so I know I'm not the only one. Again not a knock, I love ev's, but they have their issues too.
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Re: charging an EV

Post by Normchad »

squirm wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:37 pm I've gone out in the morning leaving for work and realized I have forgotten to plug the car in the night before. With gas, not an issue. Colleagues who drive an EV to work have done the same, so I know I'm not the only one. Again not a knock, I love ev's, but they have their issues too.
Good point. It's never happened to me, and I've never even thought of it happening. But it certainly could. And if I did, I'd probably be delayed by an hour or so. (I can add 30 miles of range at home in an hour).

EVs are awesome. But I agree, we need to be honest in all things. And the ubiquity and speed of gas stations is just unparalleled. EV charging isn't an issue for a lot of people (me included), but it is, or would be for a lot of others right now. Like I say, if I was going to do a 1000 mile road trip, I would very likely take my other car, because gas is just so much more convenient.
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Re: charging an EV

Post by fyre4ce »

Counterpoint: I drive a gas-powered car, and sometimes during extremely busy weeks it's stressful and difficult to even find time to stop and fill up with gas. The idea of a car that would fully charge overnight such that I never have to worry about stopping for intra-city driving seems really appealing.

I understand the concern about long trips. I like the idea of a two-car household with one gas-powered and one EV.
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Re: charging an EV

Post by bikesandbeers »

Look up Tesloop. They ran some Model S and X for more than 300,000 miles. Back and forth from LA to Vegas. There was also a Chevy Volt that went for 300,000 miles, about half of that electric miles.
BuckyBadger
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Re: charging an EV

Post by BuckyBadger »

It's remarkable the lengths people will go to troll against EVs. Every straw man argument in the world.
davehica
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Re: charging an EV

Post by davehica »

Normchad wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:35 am
davehica wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:38 pm
Normchad wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:09 pm I bought an EV a year ago. I absolutely love it.
+1. We got a Kia Niro and it's great. No range anxiety whatsoever, and I've taken it on 3k mile road trips. Definitely had a few close calls on range in parts of the country where there are few fast chargers, but it's doable with a little more planning. At home, I charge about once per week on a 30amp 7kw charger I had installed. Charges to 100% by morning.
Thanks, that’s really good to know. The Niro gets a lot of great reviews, I assume you’re very happy too?

On your long distance trips, how was the price of charging compared to gas?
Yes, I'm exceptionally happy with the car. Only issue is the gearboxes/motors on some cars (including mine) can develop an intermittent but not super loud ticking sound and Kia does not seem to have a good resolution yet. That said, I like the car so much I'd buy it again anyway.

RE: gas, it's hard for me to do an apples to apples comparison on cost. I've found I can book hotels that have free chargers that I can use overnight, and often there are other free chargers in most cities that can be found with an app like Plugshare. For pay chargers, some charge per minute, some per kwh, and some are a mix of both. I can tell you that my last trip of ~3K miles from SF to Phoenix cost less than $150 in electricity which is far less than I would have spent on gas. Happy to answer any other questions you have about EV's or the Niro specifically.
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RootSki
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Re: charging an EV

Post by RootSki »

I have a PHEV. Regarding maintenance, I don’t have to wait around for anything. Volvo sends someone to my home with my loaner for the day and then picks it up later that day or the next morning.

Having 20-25 miles of electric is good enough for running errands, yet I have 500 mile road a trip range on one tank.
davehica
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Re: charging an EV

Post by davehica »

:arrow:
stoptothink wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:29 pm
dsmclone wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:20 pm
CheckMate404 wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:30 pm
Tenesmus83 wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:02 pm I like the idea of reducing pollution so I'm looking at buying an electric vehicle. My main concern is that the small number of charging
stations which would limit long-distance trips. Also, having to wait more than 20 min for a full charge is just too much time.
Anyone have similar hesitation?
la.

We spent more time looking for and getting gas, than we spent waiting for a charge. By a lot.
This seems a little odd to me. I can't remember the last time I wasn't within 15 minutes of a gas station and I just went on a 9 day road trip to Yellowstone. On the other hand, there were times where I would have been 100 miles away from a Tesla Supercharger in these remote locations. With that said, I love Tesla and once they clean up their fit/finish I'll probably get one.
I have zero interest in buying another ICE car, nonetheless there is a very obvious current downside to EVs - the fueling time and infrastructure in the context of longer drives - and twisting into a pretzel trying to rationalize it away gets pretty amusing, fast. I have seen multiple EV owners try to suggest refueling an ICE car is some huge inconvenience (or even downright dangerous a few times), and I can't do anything but roll my eyes.
If you make a direct comparison between ease of refuling gas vs EV you're right, gas is significantly easier. And faster. However, as a few others have mentioned, most people buy EVs and change their behavior, IE scheduling stops, checking out new places, stretching, making phonecalls, eating, lying in the sun, reading, etc. I've found that these changes make road trips 100X more enjoyable, both physically and mentally.
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mmmodem
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Re: charging an EV

Post by mmmodem »

squirm wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:37 pm I've gone out in the morning leaving for work and realized I have forgotten to plug the car in the night before. With gas, not an issue. Colleagues who drive an EV to work have done the same, so I know I'm not the only one. Again not a knock, I love ev's, but they have their issues too.
There are two problems with what you wrote:
One: Forgetting to get gas the night before is absolutely an issue with a gas vehicle. It's exactly the same issue as forgetting to plug in an EV.
Two: I have forgotten to plug in my EV before. Multiple times in fact. You know what I did? Probably the same as you did and your colleagues. I drove to work the next day. The idea that I have to have a full charge the next day is a false premise.

Agree that EV's have their own issues but forgetting to charge isn't an additional one that gas cars don't have.
Valuethinker
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Re: charging an EV

Post by Valuethinker »

Katietsu wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:37 pm
Normchad wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:41 pm
sambb wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:32 pm hybrid. look at camry or highlander. accomplishes what you need to accomplish
A hybrid is certainly a great option. It would reduce pollution, a states goal of the OP.
But if you concern is reducing your carbon footprint, I would not by a 7 passenger vehicle unless absolutely necessary.

Whether EV is less polluting than ICE depends partially on how your electric is produced. I live in part of the country where the only difference is whether the pollution will be coming from the tailpipe or the smokestack. Driving a vehicle that gets over 50 mpg and keeping mileage driven down are the primary ways I stay green. That said, I do like my PHEV for the lack of engine noise on electric.
There are websites around w pollution calculators.

Your electricity is unlikely to be 100% coal. There is probably 20-30% gas in there, depending on time of day.

Setting that aside, your electric car is roughly 3x as efficient in using energy (90% v 25% say) on e it actually is in the car v an ICE.

(Oil has to extracted, piped to refineries, refined & distributed as gasoline. That's going to take more emissions than sending electricity via Transmission& Distribution grid).

You still come out ahead even if you are 100% coal.

If I have time later I shall look up a calculator, NREL may have done one from memory.
Valuethinker
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Re: charging an EV

Post by Valuethinker »

mmmodem wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 12:32 am
squirm wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:37 pm I've gone out in the morning leaving for work and realized I have forgotten to plug the car in the night before. With gas, not an issue. Colleagues who drive an EV to work have done the same, so I know I'm not the only one. Again not a knock, I love ev's, but they have their issues too.
There are two problems with what you wrote:
One: Forgetting to get gas the night before is absolutely an issue with a gas vehicle. It's exactly the same issue as forgetting to plug in an EV.
Two: I have forgotten to plug in my EV before. Multiple times in fact. You know what I did? Probably the same as you did and your colleagues. I drove to work the next day. The idea that I have to have a full charge the next day is a false premise.

Agree that EV's have their own issues but forgetting to charge isn't an additional one that gas cars don't have.
I suspect that it is easier to forget to refuel an ICE vehicle than it is an EV. An EV, one will quickly develop the discipline of automatically plugging it in when one gets home (assuming one has a reserved parking spot e.g. own driveway).

Because there is a significant worry/ time cost to forgetting, one won't do it. Whereas with gas, there (was) always a gas station nearby. So people run it to the edge.

(My father was notorious for this, trying to get the cheapest price for gas and running us close to empty because he didn't want to pay a price he viewed as extortionate. One time we had to push it down the hill to refuel. It was his personality to try to get the lowest price. To be fair, relative to household incomes, gasoline prices in the 70s particularly were a lot higher, and cars less economical).

At least in London, gas stations are themselves getting less frequent. The sites are too valuable for other uses, and as cars get more fuel economical, there is less need. Gasoline itself is a very low margin activity - because the supermarkets compete in that area. The goal is to get the customer onto the lot, and into the store, where they will buy more stuff. I think WalMart invented this game, and their subsidiary in the UK (Asda food stores) actually has a measurable impact on lowering gasoline (petrol & diesel) prices within a few miles of the nearest Asda.
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Re: charging an EV

Post by Valuethinker »

ballons wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:42 pm
BuckyBadger wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:19 pm
ballons wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:18 pm
BuckyBadger wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:05 pm An electric engine had about 20 moving parts. An ICE engine has about 2,000. EVs should last considerably longer with significantly less maintenance aside from tires and brakes pads.
Except for that whole expensive battery replacement thing.
That's just a lazy straw man argument.

Batteries don't routinely require replacement and technology continues improving. There is an initial degradation that then levels out and new battery technology is reducing even that.

Surely you could work a little harder to find a better dig at EVs?
You didn't say electric motors will last longer but the entire electronic vehicle which includes the battery. "New battery technology" costs how much to swap in to an older EV?

You are on bogleheads where people hold on to vehicles much longer. 10, 15, 20, and up to 25 years old.
Prius you do this every 7-8 years. It has not been an issue.

The drivetrain is so much simpler with an EV, electricity is cheaper, the engine is 3x as efficient (say 25% for an ICE v 90% for an EV). Any cost for replacing the battery in 7-8 years time is still going to leave EV cheaper to run. Obsolescence will be the problem with current generation of EVs, rather than that they have not lasted physically.
Valuethinker
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Re: charging an EV

Post by Valuethinker »

https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electr ... sions.html

Calculator by state of emissions from EV charging.



https://www.nrel.gov/news/program/2016/28689.html

contains links to estimates of the pollution from charging an EV.
Researchers found that the potential for emissions reduction depends on when and where drivers charge their vehicles. The report presents emissions findings for a variety of light-duty plug-in electric vehicle models under four charging scenarios and five electricity grid profiles. Researchers found that emissions are highly dependent on the percentage of fossil fuels in the electricity mix at the charging location, and there are notable differences in emissions between vehicles charged on high-carbon versus low-carbon grids. Despite this, the study indicates that EVs charged on high-carbon grids produce fewer carbon emissions than those produced by conventional vehicles.
Dottie57
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Re: charging an EV

Post by Dottie57 »

sambb wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:32 pm hybrid. look at camry or highlander. accomplishes what you need to accomplish
The car before my current was a first gen CamryHybrid. Great car. It halved my gas consumption. I assume they have only become better.

ETA. The simplicity of an EV car is really alluring. If my condo building had a way to charge an EV, I would seriously think about an EV for the future.
Last edited by Dottie57 on Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Slacker
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Re: charging an EV

Post by Slacker »

We have a Toyota PHEV we purchased 3 years ago.

We often just keep 1/4 to 1/2 a tank of gas, because we find that we don't actually use the gas engine that often at all. We've gone as much as 6 months on a 1/4 tank of gas and have realized that having the 500 miles of range capability is extremely rarely used by us (one time last year I had to drive to my main office in another state).

So far, our "long trips" to the mountains or beaches could have easily been handled by a Tesla Model 3 Standard Range with maybe a 10 minute top up on the way back. We'll have no problem switching over to fully electric with our next vehicle in 6-9 years.

A PHEV really opened our eyes up to the viability of owning a full EV.
randomguy
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Re: charging an EV

Post by randomguy »

Valuethinker wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:18 am
ballons wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:42 pm
BuckyBadger wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:19 pm
ballons wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:18 pm
BuckyBadger wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:05 pm An electric engine had about 20 moving parts. An ICE engine has about 2,000. EVs should last considerably longer with significantly less maintenance aside from tires and brakes pads.
Except for that whole expensive battery replacement thing.
That's just a lazy straw man argument.

Batteries don't routinely require replacement and technology continues improving. There is an initial degradation that then levels out and new battery technology is reducing even that.

Surely you could work a little harder to find a better dig at EVs?
You didn't say electric motors will last longer but the entire electronic vehicle which includes the battery. "New battery technology" costs how much to swap in to an older EV?

You are on bogleheads where people hold on to vehicles much longer. 10, 15, 20, and up to 25 years old.
Prius you do this every 7-8 years. It has not been an issue.

The drivetrain is so much simpler with an EV, electricity is cheaper, the engine is 3x as efficient (say 25% for an ICE v 90% for an EV). Any cost for replacing the battery in 7-8 years time is still going to leave EV cheaper to run. Obsolescence will be the problem with current generation of EVs, rather than that they have not lasted physically.
That is the EV fantasy. Reality so far hasn't matched up to it. Go look at any of the maintenance logs for the 200k+ mile Teslas and you will not find a single one that is on the original drive train. Most of them are on 3 or 4. It works out for those companies since they were in the warranty period (like 7 years/unlimited miles at the time). For a normal user that isn't so great. The drive trains might not be as complex but we also don't have a 100 year history of building EVs like we do with gas powered cars. Maybe eventually we can make electrical motors that last as long as a gas engine but so far their is no evidence that we can. And I sort of doubt EV owners are going to be any more willing sink 4k for a new battery into a 20 year old car than gas car owners are at sticking 4k into a new motor at 20 years.

None of this means you shouldn't get an EV. Just be realistic and not delusional about what the ownership experience will be like.
stoptothink
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Re: charging an EV

Post by stoptothink »

davehica wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:24 pm :arrow:
stoptothink wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:29 pm
dsmclone wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:20 pm
CheckMate404 wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:30 pm
Tenesmus83 wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:02 pm I like the idea of reducing pollution so I'm looking at buying an electric vehicle. My main concern is that the small number of charging
stations which would limit long-distance trips. Also, having to wait more than 20 min for a full charge is just too much time.
Anyone have similar hesitation?
la.

We spent more time looking for and getting gas, than we spent waiting for a charge. By a lot.
This seems a little odd to me. I can't remember the last time I wasn't within 15 minutes of a gas station and I just went on a 9 day road trip to Yellowstone. On the other hand, there were times where I would have been 100 miles away from a Tesla Supercharger in these remote locations. With that said, I love Tesla and once they clean up their fit/finish I'll probably get one.
I have zero interest in buying another ICE car, nonetheless there is a very obvious current downside to EVs - the fueling time and infrastructure in the context of longer drives - and twisting into a pretzel trying to rationalize it away gets pretty amusing, fast. I have seen multiple EV owners try to suggest refueling an ICE car is some huge inconvenience (or even downright dangerous a few times), and I can't do anything but roll my eyes.
If you make a direct comparison between ease of refuling gas vs EV you're right, gas is significantly easier. And faster. However, as a few others have mentioned, most people buy EVs and change their behavior, IE scheduling stops, checking out new places, stretching, making phonecalls, eating, lying in the sun, reading, etc. I've found that these changes make road trips 100X more enjoyable, both physically and mentally.
And why couldn't you do the exact same thing with an ICE car? In fact, that's how my parents do their road trips (and it is maddening for us, and why we never travel with them). You are forced to do it with an EV, that's the issue. Personally, this would make our longer drives exponentially more frustrating and a significant portion of our driving miles are on long trips because most of our commuting is walking or biking. It's our primary concern about getting an EV and hopefully our current car gives us 5yrs+ more for the concern to be mitigated.
dsmclone
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Re: charging an EV

Post by dsmclone »

BuckyBadger wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:48 pm It's remarkable the lengths people will go to troll against EVs. Every straw man argument in the world.
It really happens both ways. Just like anything else, there are positives/negatives on both sides. These positives/negatives have different degrees of importance for each person/family. At this point in time, EV's have become a lot stronger option and probably will continue to become a stronger option in the future. 5 years ago, the choices were very limited and for most people and EV didn't make sense. Maybe in 5 years from now it will be completely backwards and ICE vehicles will make very little sense for the average consumer.
squirm
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Re: charging an EV

Post by squirm »

dsmclone wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:02 am
BuckyBadger wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:48 pm It's remarkable the lengths people will go to troll against EVs. Every straw man argument in the world.
It really happens both ways. Just like anything else, there are positives/negatives on both sides. These positives/negatives have different degrees of importance for each person/family. At this point in time, EV's have become a lot stronger option and probably will continue to become a stronger option in the future. 5 years ago, the choices were very limited and for most people and EV didn't make sense. Maybe in 5 years from now it will be completely backwards and ICE vehicles will make very little sense for the average consumer.

It does go both ways. I love ev's but the EV fanbois are too much at times. I just love their lines... "you have to go out of your way to get gas, it takes at least twenty minutes fill, you're forced to breath gas fumes, gas spills everywhere, etc etc."
squirm
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Re: charging an EV

Post by squirm »

Normchad wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:28 pm
squirm wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:37 pm I've gone out in the morning leaving for work and realized I have forgotten to plug the car in the night before. With gas, not an issue. Colleagues who drive an EV to work have done the same, so I know I'm not the only one. Again not a knock, I love ev's, but they have their issues too.
Good point. It's never happened to me, and I've never even thought of it happening. But it certainly could. And if I did, I'd probably be delayed by an hour or so. (I can add 30 miles of range at home in an hour).

EVs are awesome. But I agree, we need to be honest in all things. And the ubiquity and speed of gas stations is just unparalleled. EV charging isn't an issue for a lot of people (me included), but it is, or would be for a lot of others right now. Like I say, if I was going to do a 1000 mile road trip, I would very likely take my other car, because gas is just so much more convenient.
I also need to get my cats trained not to sleep underneath the EV. This morning there was one of them, sleeping under the EV! Thankfully I check for mutts under the car.
alexander29
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Re: charging an EV

Post by alexander29 »

Valuethinker wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:58 am https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electr ... sions.html

Calculator by state of emissions from EV charging.

Thanks for this. I'm lucky to live in a state, Washington, where coal and oil fuel only about 7 percent of the electrical grid. Makes EVs very low polluting.

https://www.nrel.gov/news/program/2016/28689.html

contains links to estimates of the pollution from charging an EV.
Researchers found that the potential for emissions reduction depends on when and where drivers charge their vehicles. The report presents emissions findings for a variety of light-duty plug-in electric vehicle models under four charging scenarios and five electricity grid profiles. Researchers found that emissions are highly dependent on the percentage of fossil fuels in the electricity mix at the charging location, and there are notable differences in emissions between vehicles charged on high-carbon versus low-carbon grids. Despite this, the study indicates that EVs charged on high-carbon grids produce fewer carbon emissions than those produced by conventional vehicles.
hightower
Posts: 779
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:28 am

Re: charging an EV

Post by hightower »

Tenesmus83 wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:02 pm I like the idea of reducing pollution so I'm looking at buying an electric vehicle. My main concern is that the small number of charging
stations which would limit long-distance trips. Also, having to wait more than 20 min for a full charge is just too much time.
Anyone have similar hesitation?
Hi! I've been driving an electric car now for about 3 years (couldn't be happier with it). I have always charged my car in 2 ways...1. At home when the sun is shining because we have solar panels and I like to charge it with power from the sun rather than the grid. Or 2. At work. I just find a plug in the garage where I park and use my portable charger.
I've never found much of a need for charging stations because I don't take the car on road trips, so it's not an issue for me. If you're planning on using the car as a daily commuter, you don't need charging stations either. As long as you have access to a regular wall outlet, you can charge at home while you sleep.
Some people who live in apartments don't have the ability to plug in at night, so for them I would recommend getting a car with long range so you don't have to go to a charging station as often.
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