Dan Wiener just shutdown his forum

[littleboss]

The email said due to inactivity......... That inactivity is due to the fact that the forum software has been messed up for over a year and they never fixed it. Time to cancel my subscription............

[nisiprius]

That's sad.

[LizzyM]

I just registered here to say how mad I am that this was done without warning. I wrote an email saying "shame on you" to them and that I will not be renewing my membership even though I have been a member for longer than I can remember. If anyone else feels this way then please email your complaint to the address in the email. I received a reply shortly after I sent it that they would share it with Dan. I personally don't think he cares since so many people complained about the previous changes to the forum which were never addressed by them.

If they had given us any warning, I sure would have thanked Butwait and others there who have helped me throughout the years!

[TravelGeek]

The email said due to inactivity......... That inactivity is due to the fact that the forum software has been messed up for over a year and they never fixed it. Time to cancel my subscription............

Dan Wiener, the Vanguard advisor guy, not Dan Weiner, the photojournalists, right?

I think you can edit the thread title yourself without help from the mods.

[littleboss]

Yep, the financial guy. I have been subscribing for over 20 years

[LadyGeek]

This thread is now in the Investing - Theory, News & General forum (news).

[Elysium]

The email said due to inactivity......... That inactivity is due to the fact that the forum software has been messed up for over a year and they never fixed it. Time to cancel my subscription............

Dan Wiener, isn't he the guy who constantly harp on Vanguard technology and management, but can't keep a basic forum software up & running

[Escapevelocity]

Is this guy well known? Never heard of him

[Trader Joe]

The email said due to inactivity......... That inactivity is due to the fact that the forum software has been messed up for over a year and they never fixed it. Time to cancel my subscription............

How long were you a subscriber? And did he help you?

[FIREchief]

Who?

[tibbitts]

I don't subscribe. Is this about a user forum he maintained, or his entire website/newsletter business?

[whodidntante]

Who?

Mr. Wiener. The Danmeister. Makin' copies.

Apologies to anyone who gets the joke.

[JGS]

Very poor business decision. Also this was carried out very poorly. The value of a subscription to their newsletter has been greatly diminished. They are very much out of touch with their customers. They have underestimated the consequences to their action.

[celia]

My newsletter expired about 3 years ago and I never renewed it. I don’t think they sent me any/ very many renewal reminders or ‘special offers’ this time around like they did in the past. I never used the website but subscribed to the newsletter on and off for the last 20 years.

While Jeff trained to take over the newsletter while Dan got ready to retire, the newsletter just wasn’t the same. I think it was partly Dan’s way with words that kept my interest and that he used to interview Vanguard mutal fund managers for the newsletter.

I followed some of his recommendations and am glad I got into the Heath Care, Capital Opportunity, and Dividend Growth funds when I did.

[rascott]

Why do Bogleheads need an investment newsletter?


You either are an index investor or not.

Bogle mocked the idea of sector investing and active management. He wrote book after book about just buying total market index funds.

What am I missing?

[celia]

What am I missing?

For me, I believe in a diversity of opinions and multiple sources of information.

I am not one of those Bogleheads who just recites the “core beliefs” over and over, although I am often the one suggesting you consider doing Roth conversions.

[Robert T]

Heath Care, Capital Opportunity

Both have done very well.

Health Care
https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/bac ... ion2_2=100
https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/bac ... ion3_3=100

Capital Opportunity
https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/bac ... ion2_2=100
.

[Pinotage]

Who?

Mr. Wiener. The Danmeister. Makin' copies.

Apologies to anyone who gets the joke.

Dan-o-raamaaaa!

[heartwood]

The email said due to inactivity......... That inactivity is due to the fact that the forum software has been messed up for over a year and they never fixed it. Time to cancel my subscription............

Just to be clear, he shut down the forum, not the newsletter, right? The website is still up, at least the landing page.

I subscribed for a yr or two many years ago. The forum was interesting, but even then had limited participation. It had a group of good and helpful posters. The forum was one of the reasons I continued to go to the site. There were at least two prolific (by that site standards) posters: Nero and ??? Why can't I remember his name? He tried to helpfully answer any posts or question.

One of the downsides of that forum was you had to be a wiener subscriber to read/post. Once you stopped paying you were cut off. I seem to recall that at one point forum posters tried to setup a free blog, perhaps on a yahoo platform. It seems it did not make it.

[ResearchMed]

The email said due to inactivity......... That inactivity is due to the fact that the forum software has been messed up for over a year and they never fixed it. Time to cancel my subscription............

Just to be clear, he shut down the forum, not the newsletter, right? The website is still up, at least the landing page.

I subscribed for a yr or two many years ago. The forum was interesting, but even then had limited participation. It had a group of good and helpful posters. The forum was one of the reasons I continued to go to the site. There were at least two prolific (by that site standards) posters: Nero and ??? Why can't I remember his name? He tried to helpfully answer any posts or question.

One of the downsides of that forum was you had to be a wiener subscriber to read/post. Once you stopped paying you were cut off. I seem to recall that at one point forum posters tried to setup a free blog, perhaps on a yahoo platform. It seems it did not make it.

That would probably have been "Butwait", yes?
VERY helpful forum member!

When I dropped our on again/off again (depending in part on any special rate offer that might show up) subscription several years ago, I missed Butwait.

Note that the Morningstar Discussions/forums might be worth looking at if you want something in addition to Bogleheads.

RM

[littleboss]

Yes he only shutdown the forum.

I have been a subscriber probably around 30 years. He used to have good info like how to get into a closed fund, and inside info on the managers. I usually took his evaluations of which VG funds to own and compared that to what Morningstar said and then made my decision as to what to do. When I could get this newsletter and forum for about $75 year it was worth it. Now with no forum and Dan seeming to not care I will save my money

[littleboss]

Yes, after Nero passed away Butwait was the main reason to stay there

[rascott]

Heath Care, Capital Opportunity

Both have done very well.

Health Care
https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/bac ... ion2_2=100
https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/bac ... ion3_3=100

Capital Opportunity
https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/bac ... ion2_2=100
.

Capital opportunity is classified as a mid cap growth fund. So it shouldn't be benchmarked against the SP500.

[littleboss]

Is this guy well known? Never heard of him

You must be new to investing. He knows more about VG than most and has had insider information that you could not get anywhere else

[arcticpineapplecorp.]

Is this guy well known? Never heard of him

You must be new to investing. He knows more about VG than most and has had insider information that you could not get anywhere else

from https://citywireusa.com/professional-bu ... o/a1177133:

Wiener does not quite see it like that though. He concedes that the average active manager has lagged in certain asset classes, but that’s not the kind of manager he’s interested in.

‘The average active manager has underperformed, but we don’t buy the average active manager,’ he says. ‘We are focused on eight or nine managers out of the 3,000 or so that make up the average. We work very hard to find those excellent managers. Give them their time and due, and they will perform for you.

Adviser Investments’ Daniel Wiener and Jeff DeMaso are using their journalistic insight to find outperforming managers and deliver more for clients.

Although DeMaso and Wiener are certainly vocal advocates for active management, if they can’t find the best they will use an ETF or an index fund to gain exposure to an asset class when they want to shift allocations.

‘We will try and match up the same kind of risks and exposure that we are getting with active managers, but it’s not going to be perfect if those managers are buying good stocks,’ DeMaso says.

see any problem with this?

It was a David versus Goliath story. [Vanguard founder and then CEO] Jack Bogle was unhappy that there was an independent voice talking about Vanguard. He wanted to be the only person,’ Wiener recalls. ‘But then they came back and said, “Can we settle this?” because the press around them doing this was all negative.’

The case was dropped, and Wiener quickly discovered that the furore had helped rather than hindered the newsletter.

‘Because of the way the press had run, we suddenly had 10,000 subscribers. It was fantastic. Them trying to sue me put me on the map,’ Wiener says.
Making the leap

Investors didn’t just want a newsletter about Vanguard funds though. They also wanted Wiener to pick the products and build portfolios for them. In 1994, he set up Adviser Investments, initially with one $140,000 client from Oregon.

In 1995, he sold the newsletter to avoid any blurred lines with his regulated advice business, but he remains subcontracted – now alongside DeMaso – to write and edit it every month.

It seems safe to say that the decision has proved to be a good one. The newsletter has grown from eight pages to 16, and subscribers now total 40,000. The RIA boasts 3,000 clients and 85 members of staff, including 25 client-facing advisors across offices in Newton, Massachusetts and Brooklyn, New York, with $5.5 billion in assets under management.

Some of that growth has come through acquisitions, including the 2011 purchase of Kobren Insight Management, which led to DeMaso coming on board.

[02nz]

Very poor business decision. Also this was carried out very poorly. The value of a subscription to their newsletter has been greatly diminished. They are very much out of touch with their customers. They have underestimated the consequences to their action.

He's just copying Vanguard's business practices!

[heartwood]

ResearchMed and littleboss,

Butwait! yes, how did I not recall that name

Thanks

[eye.surgeon]

Why do Bogleheads need an investment newsletter?


You either are an index investor or not.

Bogle mocked the idea of sector investing and active management. He wrote book after book about just buying total market index funds.

What am I missing?

Some people feel driven to complicate the inherently simple or follow a guru. There's also an element of the fear of missing out, like there's some secret way to beat the market that only insiders with newsletters know about. If you question them you will be told that following boglehead principles is simplistic, indexing is just for the unsophisticated investors, times have changed, you're a sheep, think for yourself, this forum is just groupthinkers, etc etc.

[CFM300]

Bogle mocked the idea of sector investing and active management. He wrote book after book about just buying total market index funds.

What am I missing?

Would it surprise you to learn that Bogle created the following portfolio?

45% VG Wellington (active)
45% VG Balanced
05% Emerging Markets (sector)
05% Gold

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=312806#p5211248

[littleboss]

Why do Bogleheads need an investment newsletter?


You either are an index investor or not.

Bogle mocked the idea of sector investing and active management. He wrote book after book about just buying total market index funds.

What am I missing?

Some people feel driven to complicate the inherently simple or follow a guru. There's also an element of the fear of missing out, like there's some secret way to beat the market that only insiders with newsletters know about. If you question them you will be told that following boglehead principles is simplistic, indexing is just for the unsophisticated investors, times have changed, you're a sheep, think for yourself, this forum is just groupthinkers, etc etc.

actually a lot of the time vanguard's active funds will beat the indexes. Now whether you need a newsletter to tell you that or not is up to you

[Taylor Larimore]

Bogleheads:

I know Mr. Dan Wiener well. He once paid me to write a blind article in his monthly newsletter. His annual "Independent Guide to the Vanguard Funds" contains the most comprehensive information about Vanguard funds that I know.

Many years ago I attended a Money Show classroom in which Dan Wiener was the speaker. I was in the second row. Shortly after Dan started speaking an attendee in the first row slipped out of his chair and slumped unconscious on the floor. An ambulance was called and they took the unconscious man away. The remainder of the class was cancelled. I never learned what happened to the man they hauled away.

Several years later I briefly met Mr. Weiner. As a former speech teacher, I tried to make a joke by saying: "Your listener probably died of boredom." Dan didn't laugh.

We have not communicated for many years. I wish him well.

Best wishes.
Taylor

Jack Bogle's Words of Wisdom: "All newsletters cost the investor good money; most offer dubious value."

[Elysium]

Heath Care, Capital Opportunity

Both have done very well.

Health Care
https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/bac ... ion2_2=100
https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/bac ... ion3_3=100

Capital Opportunity
https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/bac ... ion2_2=100
.

Healthcare not so dramatic since the original manager retired, guess around 2010.
Capital opportunity not so great since 2010 either. I think Growth index did better.

[HoosierMike]

I've been a Wiener subscriber for decades although I didn't use the forum too much. Stuck with Boggleheads & Morningstar for forums.

Dan steered me into Health Care, Cap Opp, Div Growth, and Int'l Growth when my default brain directs me to "value" funds. Thank you Dan.

He kept me out of many funds that sounded alluring along the way (US Growth, Energy, Gold, Windsor, WIndsor II, Life Strategy, Retire 20xx, US Value, Diversified Equity, Int'l Value, etc) and provided good explanations for doing so (i.e. "Diversified Equity" with 42 named portfolio managers from 17 firms influencing the portfolio!)

Dan has educated me on the "Vanguard Way"....a lot of it good but some not so good (personal advisors steering us into mediocre funds, multiple managers, shifting fund strategy, minimal fund information, website issues, lack of managers "eating their own cooking" to name a few.

Dan's commentary is valuable when the market is in free-fall (tech crash, 9/11, financial crisis, etc). Dan is quick to remind me that my gains have been quite good over the past few years and a downturn is normal/expected and soon to reverse. Been right-on so far.

[FIREchief]

from https://citywireusa.com/professional-bu ... o/a1177133:

Wiener does not quite see it like that though. He concedes that the average active manager has lagged in certain asset classes, but that’s not the kind of manager he’s interested in.

‘The average active manager has underperformed, but we don’t buy the average active manager,’ he says. ‘We are focused on eight or nine managers out of the 3,000 or so that make up the average. We work very hard to find those excellent managers. Give them their time and due, and they will perform for you.

Adviser Investments’ Daniel Wiener and Jeff DeMaso are using their journalistic insight to find outperforming managers and deliver more for clients.

Although DeMaso and Wiener are certainly vocal advocates for active management, if they can’t find the best they will use an ETF or an index fund to gain exposure to an asset class when they want to shift allocations.

‘We will try and match up the same kind of risks and exposure that we are getting with active managers, but it’s not going to be perfect if those managers are buying good stocks,’ DeMaso says.

see any problem with this?

Yeah, I didn't even know who this guy is, but after a quick glimpse at his website I can't for the life of me understand why a Boglehead would want to pay this guy for "insights." This from the website:

Our expert analysts spot hot stocks that are heating up before the crowd swoops in to bid prices higher, and our journalists sift through the noise to shine a light on trending investments -- in spaces ranging from quantum computing to marijuana stocks -- to determine whether they’re actually worth your time.

[arcticpineapplecorp.]

Dan's commentary is valuable when the market is in free-fall (tech crash, 9/11, financial crisis, etc). Dan is quick to remind me that my gains have been quite good over the past few years and a downturn is normal/expected and soon to reverse. Been right-on so far.

but a chart you could have accessed for free could tell you that:
https://am.jpmorgan.com/us/en/asset-man ... ets/viewer

[CFM300]

Yeah, I didn't even know who this guy is, but after a quick glimpse at his website I can't for the life of me understand why a Boglehead would want to pay this guy for "insights." This from the website:

Our expert analysts spot hot stocks that are heating up before the crowd swoops in to bid prices higher, and our journalists sift through the noise to shine a light on trending investments -- in spaces ranging from quantum computing to marijuana stocks -- to determine whether they’re actually worth your time.

Isn't the "Hot Hands" portfolio in Madsinger's monthly report a Dan Wiener creation?

Hot Hands vs. S&P 500, timeframe
19.81% vs. 2.37%, YTD
11.07% vs. 6.55%, since 1999

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=322369&p=5421164#p5421164

[FIREchief]

Yeah, I didn't even know who this guy is, but after a quick glimpse at his website I can't for the life of me understand why a Boglehead would want to pay this guy for "insights." This from the website:

Our expert analysts spot hot stocks that are heating up before the crowd swoops in to bid prices higher, and our journalists sift through the noise to shine a light on trending investments -- in spaces ranging from quantum computing to marijuana stocks -- to determine whether they’re actually worth your time.

Isn't the "Hot Hands" portfolio in Madsinger's monthly report a Dan Wiener creation?

Hot Hands vs. S&P 500, timeframe
19.81% vs. 2.37%, YTD
11.07% vs. 6.55%, since 1999

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=322369&p=5421164#p5421164

I know absolutely nothing about any of this stuff and I can prove it! (probably just did ) I do know that the only was my equity investments will lag behind the market is if I invest in something other than market-index based investments.

[AUH2O]

Who?

Mr. Wiener. The Danmeister. Makin' copies.

Apologies to anyone who gets the joke.

Apology accepted. LOL!

[celia]

Yeah, I didn’t even know who this guy is, but after a quick glimpse at his website I can't for the life of me understand why a Boglehead would want to pay this guy for "insights."

Apparently, you never tried his offer of subscribing and getting your money back if you didn’t like it. I, on the other hand, wanted more specifics pertaining to what he was referring to in his “come on” ads. So I subscribed. After many hours of reading the info for new subscribers (other than the newsletter), I was amazed at how much I had learned. I wanted more so I kept reading and subscribing, until I had others priorities to attend to.

That was probably the only purchase I have ever made where I wanted to try something out with the going-in expectation I would return/cancel it.

And, as has been mentioned above, Dan believes in picking the manager instead of the fund. He has tons of data to help him figure out who the best managers are in the business. A real data geek.

[Always passive]

What am I missing?

For me, I believe in a diversity of opinions and multiple sources of information.

I am not one of those Bogleheads who just recites the “core beliefs” over and over, although I am often the one suggesting you consider doing Roth conversions.

BRAVO! Bogleheads is not a cult, or is it?

[FIREchief]

Yeah, I didn’t even know who this guy is, but after a quick glimpse at his website I can't for the life of me understand why a Boglehead would want to pay this guy for "insights."

And, as has been mentioned above, Dan believes in picking the manager instead of the fund. He has tons of data to help him figure out who the best managers are in the business. A real data geek.

Isn't this what they all say?

[FIREchief]

BRAVO! Bogleheads is not a cult, or is it?

If it is, it's likely the healthiest one out there.

[Elysium]

And, as has been mentioned above, Dan believes in picking the manager instead of the fund. He has tons of data to help him figure out who the best managers are in the business. A real data geek.

What data does he have that the folks at Morningstar don't have? In my understanding they have not been able to pick active managers or funds that could outperform with any amount of certainty with all the data points they have. I would say Wiener got lucky with a few funds/managers early on and now he is just riding the past performance train, as most of the Vanguard active funds have either flopped or close to being flops. Just in the past year or two they merged many active funds into others, and one into an index fund. Morgan growth went into U.S Growth, Capital Value into Windsor (or was it Windsor II?), and U.S Value is merging into Value Index. Talk about survivorship bias!

[TravelGeek]

Yeah, I didn’t even know who this guy is, but after a quick glimpse at his website I can't for the life of me understand why a Boglehead would want to pay this guy for "insights."

And, as has been mentioned above, Dan believes in picking the manager instead of the fund. He has tons of data to help him figure out who the best managers are in the business. A real data geek.

Isn't this what they all say?

Is it easier (more likely to be successful) to pick good managers or good companies?

[FIREchief]

And, as has been mentioned above, Dan believes in picking the manager instead of the fund. He has tons of data to help him figure out who the best managers are in the business. A real data geek.

What data does he have that the folks at Morningstar don't have? In my understanding they have not been able to pick active managers or funds that could outperform with any amount of certainty with all the data points they have. I would say Wiener got lucky with a few funds/managers early on and now he is just riding the past performance train, as most of the Vanguard active funds have either flopped or close to being flops. Just in the past year or two they merged many active funds into others, and one into an index fund. Morgan growth went into U.S Growth, Capital Value into Windsor (or was it Windsor II?), and U.S Value is merging into Value Index. Talk about survivorship bias!

Bingo!!!

[FIREchief]

Yeah, I didn’t even know who this guy is, but after a quick glimpse at his website I can't for the life of me understand why a Boglehead would want to pay this guy for "insights."

And, as has been mentioned above, Dan believes in picking the manager instead of the fund. He has tons of data to help him figure out who the best managers are in the business. A real data geek.

Isn't this what they all say?

Is it easier (more likely to be successful) to pick good managers or good companies?

LOL. Is this a trick question? Isn't the answer "neither."

[rascott]

Yeah, I didn't even know who this guy is, but after a quick glimpse at his website I can't for the life of me understand why a Boglehead would want to pay this guy for "insights." This from the website:

Our expert analysts spot hot stocks that are heating up before the crowd swoops in to bid prices higher, and our journalists sift through the noise to shine a light on trending investments -- in spaces ranging from quantum computing to marijuana stocks -- to determine whether they’re actually worth your time.

Isn't the "Hot Hands" portfolio in Madsinger's monthly report a Dan Wiener creation?

Hot Hands vs. S&P 500, timeframe
19.81% vs. 2.37%, YTD
11.07% vs. 6.55%, since 1999

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=322369&p=5421164#p5421164

I've often wondered what the Hot Hands portfolio was. For some reason Madsinger explains what all of them are but that one?

[LadyGeek]

^^^ Thanks! I asked Madsinger for a description here.

[ResearchMed]

^^^ Thanks! I asked Madsinger for a description here.

Copying my answer from the linked post:

I think there is a concern about not publicizing information that ordinarily only available by subscription.

I'm not aware that madsinger is describing the details of the Wiener's other portfolios, either, other than by name (Growth, Growth Index, etc.).

RM

[LadyGeek]

Madsinger has provided details of the "Hot Hands" portfolio in this post.