Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

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RudyS
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by RudyS » Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:20 pm

BarbBrooklyn wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:57 pm
Dear all; you have of course confirmed what my gut was telling me.

I have trouble say "no" to ex and while I won't say "a random stranger in the internet told me to say no", I WILL tell him that I consulted some very smart wizards.

I hope it won't violate any rules if I delete this thread; it is all to recognizable to the participants.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Send message to moderator to request deletion. Sounds like a good idea.

OnTrack2020
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by OnTrack2020 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:25 pm

BarbBrooklyn wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:07 pm
I am going to try to get some clarity from you all about the advisability of financially "helping" in a pretty fraught family situation. I am not seeking relationship advice, just financial direction.

(D)H and I are divorced since 2001. We have remained friendly and we are both remarried.

Kid one is financially astute, has one child and is completely independent.

Kid 2 has held a variety of low paying jobs in retail although her interests are academic. She is married and has one child. Right now, she is working part time from home in her academic field. Her husband, who was a server in the restaurant industry is understandably unemployed. They are currently living with ex, although still renting their apartment. The reasons for that are complicated

Kid 3 is financially independent and married.

Son in law appears completely unmotivated to get back to work in any capacity. His chosen field, if he can be said to have one, (not hospitality) is low paid, politically fraught and he doesn't have the education to become successful at it (Has a HS diploma, failed out of college as a teenager and attempted to go back to community college a few years back and was overwhelmed by the demands. Yes, there is probably an undiagnosed learning disbility).

Ex is proposing that we go in on buying them an apartment and renting it to them for the price of the maintenance while we would pay the mortgage. There would terms and conditions about upkeep (daughter is something of a hoader). Ex is concerned about Granddaughter being in a decent school district, having access to the "good" aka striving and fiancially astute grandparents, and trying to shape these two into some semblance of financial responsibility.

I have already poured about 20k of my money into grad school for this daughter which was basically pissed away. To buy something would be 400k or so, so out of my 1.3M portfolio, not an insignificant chunk. Ex has about 2.8M, but I have a pension and he does not. I'm 67, he is 68.

Any thoughts?
$400k out of $1.3M is too much. Do not consider this. If it were living arrangements that were much less expensive, then it might be another matter. There is nothing wrong with them renting an apartment--forever if needed. If they are still renting their apartment, how can that be considered financially irresponsible?

I don't understand why you say SIL is unmotivated to get back to work in any capacity--has he been receiving the extra $600 per week for unemployment? I imagine there are many, many Americans in this same position.

Some people will make enough money to get by throughout their life. There is nothing wrong with that. The expectations may be set too high for child #2 and SIL. Just sayin'.

Freetime76
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by Freetime76 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:27 pm

BarbBrooklyn wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:43 pm
averagedude wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:20 pm
I feel it is unfair to reward an unmotivated kid, while doing nothing for your other kids that have made good decisions. Have you thought of how your other kids feel about this?
Yes, I have. I have a lifelong policy of equal financial treatment of my kids, even to the ridiculousness of giving equal amounts to them when my mom passed away, although one kid was making twice my salary.

Ex has a very different take on this; he is also, unfortunately, dx'ed with something that will kill him almost certainly in the next 5 years or so. I so appreciate everyone's chiming in on this.
They are independent adults. Their standard of living shouldn’t be more than they can earn themselves. You have to take care of yourself.

Ex is living for the now, so you’ll have to be the long-term reliable, safe place to fall, in case anyone ever needs it. And no, I’m not saying let anybody move in, just a figure of speech. Treat to dinner, buy school clothes ( if they actually go to school instead of online), let them see you being generous to

Help by letting them reap what they sow. Daughter may not stay with the guy, he may see the light, they may continue as-is. Maybe you could help by talking offhand to your daughter about some of your (positive) financial decisions. Save something for college for the kids.

If you get really sassy, change your will so they won’t get a whole bunch of money to blow...tell them you’re e leaving it to charity or for the grandkids because they aren’t getting their acts together. I let something slip once to my sister about “mom changing her will” (our dad had recently passed). The changes in her were remarkable. She actually calls on a regular basis, visits mom, and even has a job now. 😇

TheNightsToCome
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by TheNightsToCome » Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:29 pm

Sandtrap wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:22 pm
Married and ...... adults.

Do not further enable or grow codependencies.
“Help” = long term life subsidy payments.

Adversity grows character and self reliance.

Training wheels turn into permanent crutches if left on too long.

Drop off groceries once in awhile.
k🌺
+1

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Watty
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by Watty » Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:30 pm

One thing that has not been mentioned is that if you or your ex do decide to help them financially in a big way either now or in your wills then it would be very good for any house you purchase or any money to be in a trust.

This can help protect it so they do not squander the money or your daughter does not lose it in a divorce.
Kids won’t inherit anything because he is re-married. It will all go to the new wife.
If you are on good enough terms with your ex you might suggest that he leave it to his new wife in a trust to ensure that whatever is left over eventually goes to his(and your) kids when his wife eventually dies if that is what he would want.

I know of a situation where this happened;

1) Retired couple with kids has a seven figure estate.
2) Husband dies wife inherited everything.
3) Wife is in her 70s and she remarries someone a few years late who has a similar net worth who also had kids.
4) They set up their wills so that when one of them died the other would inherit everything, but then when the second of them dies all the money that is left would be split between both their kids.
5) Wife dies a few years later and second husband inherits everything.
6) Second husband rewrites his will so that only his kids would inherit all the money.
7) A few years later he dies and his kids inherit everything.
8) The original couples kids inherit nothing. They check with a lawyer and there is nothing that can be done.
Last edited by Watty on Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.

NotWhoYouThink
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by NotWhoYouThink » Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:33 pm

The good thing about an Ex is that you are free to ignore his laughable suggestions.

It's ok to want to help, but if they live in a place that is far above their ability to pay, they will be surrounded by people who have more money or make more money. They'll be tempted to spend like people who have more money or make more money. That won't be healthy for them or you.

This is a tough situation. You'll worry about them forever, but they have to find their own way. I second suggestions for quality time reading with your grandchild(ren) and potentially paying for education or enrichment activities.

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ResearchMed
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by ResearchMed » Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:37 pm

BarbBrooklyn wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:57 pm
Dear all; you have of course confirmed what my gut was telling me.

I have trouble say "no" to ex and while I won't say "a random stranger in the internet told me to say no", I WILL tell him that I consulted some very smart wizards.

I hope it won't violate any rules if I delete this thread; it is all to recognizable to the participants.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Next time you post "anonymously" on the internet (BH or elsewhere), don't give accurate/identifying details.
Make up different numbers, different ages, different relationships... enough to veil the situation so that it isn't specific to "you" even if someone who knows you well is reading it.

Do this regardless of whether this thread is deleted or if you ask the mods to redact some specifics.
In general, they don't like to delete threads, as posters have often gone to considerable time/effort to post, and also, others may find some useful information/suggestions.

Good luck with your situation!

RM
This signature is a placebo. You are in the control group.

oldfort
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by oldfort » Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:45 pm

ResearchMed wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:37 pm
BarbBrooklyn wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:57 pm
Dear all; you have of course confirmed what my gut was telling me.

I have trouble say "no" to ex and while I won't say "a random stranger in the internet told me to say no", I WILL tell him that I consulted some very smart wizards.

I hope it won't violate any rules if I delete this thread; it is all to recognizable to the participants.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Next time you post "anonymously" on the internet (BH or elsewhere), don't give accurate/identifying details.
Make up different numbers, different ages, different relationships... enough to veil the situation so that it isn't specific to "you" even if someone who knows you well is reading it.

RM
On the flip side, the more inaccurate or vague the details, the less relevant to your situation and the less useful the advice will be.

mortfree
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by mortfree » Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:45 pm

Always interesting to see these different perspectives and the HCOLA first world problems.

a 400k apartment for a couple where one is a food server?

I’d have them start anew in a lower cost of living area and buy them a 200k (100k out of your funds) house or something (or nothing).

Nice gesture but wow.

In before the delete...
Last edited by mortfree on Sun Aug 02, 2020 5:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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BarbBrooklyn
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by BarbBrooklyn » Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:49 pm

halfnine wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:05 pm
I would never let my kids starve or go without medical or dental care. I might even step in a bit if an unlikely risk were to show up (i.e pandemic). But if they want to improve upon their lot in life, they are on their own. My general philosophy is to help insure them against low risk high consequence events. Short of that, they need to sort it out themselves.

One other thought. I might be reading too much into it but it seems your ex might need to be very careful and realize that the grandchild is not their child to raise.
You can have NO idea how astute that last statement is.
BarbBrooklyn | "The enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."

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BarbBrooklyn
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by BarbBrooklyn » Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:51 pm

oldfort wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:45 pm
ResearchMed wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:37 pm
BarbBrooklyn wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:57 pm
Dear all; you have of course confirmed what my gut was telling me.

I have trouble say "no" to ex and while I won't say "a random stranger in the internet told me to say no", I WILL tell him that I consulted some very smart wizards.

I hope it won't violate any rules if I delete this thread; it is all to recognizable to the participants.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Next time you post "anonymously" on the internet (BH or elsewhere), don't give accurate/identifying details.
Make up different numbers, different ages, different relationships... enough to veil the situation so that it isn't specific to "you" even if someone who knows you well is reading it.

RM
On the flip side, the more inaccurate or vague the details, the less relevant to your situation and the less useful the advice will be.
That's why I posted the most accurate version to start. Have edited it a bit because I think I've gotten really wonderful advice that has been whole-hearted in the "step away from the train wreck" along with alternative ways to assist grandchild.
BarbBrooklyn | "The enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."

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BarbBrooklyn
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by BarbBrooklyn » Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:52 pm

mortfree wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:45 pm
Always interesting to see these different perspectives and the HCOLA first world problems.

a 800k apartment for a couple where one is a food server?

I’d have them start anew in a lower cost of living area and buy them a 200k house or something (or nothing).

Nice gesture but wow.

In before the delete...
400K or thereabouts....
BarbBrooklyn | "The enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."

momvesting
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by momvesting » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:04 pm

Have a heart-to-heart with daughter, ALONE, at a place/time where she can open up. You have no idea what is really happening in that marriage. Maybe she underperforms intentionally because he feels he needs to be the one supporting the family. Maybe she hoards because he gets upset if anything goes missing. Maybe she wants out of the marriage. Maybe she doesn't want out but wants him to get help. Maybe something emotionally traumatic happened to her and she is the one who needs help. It just feels like there is more below the surface that won't be solved by buying a roof over their heads.

Broken Man 1999
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by Broken Man 1999 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:11 pm

manatee2005 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:51 pm
FarmWife wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:49 pm
BarbBrooklyn wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:43 pm

Ex has a very different take on this; he is also, unfortunately, dx'ed with something that will kill him almost certainly in the next 5 years or so. I so appreciate everyone's chiming in on this.
sorry to hear this. If he's got $2.8mil and 5 years to live, your daughter may inherit something significant from him to change their situation. Now I'm even more sure you shouldn't contribute to this. He shouldn't either, but you probably can't stop him. Unfortunately if daughter/SIL don't learn anything about work/responsibility before then the windfall will only make it worse. I feel like SIL may just blow through it instead of using it wisely.
Kids won’t inherit anything because he is re-married. It will all go to the new wife.
How do you know this? Just curious.

Broken Man 1999
“If I cannot drink Bourbon and smoke cigars in Heaven then I shall not go. " -Mark Twain

palaheel
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by palaheel » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:14 pm

manatee2005 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:48 pm
Enroll them into Dave Ramsey financial peace university.

If that doesn’t work, offer to buy daughter a condo if she gets divorced from the deadbeat. Mortgage on 400k at these rates is very low.

That’s my view.
I agree with the Financial Peace University suggestion.

Not so sure about that other part :shock:
Markets crash. Markets recover. Inflation takes your money FOREVER.

student
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by student » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:15 pm

Broken Man 1999 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:11 pm
manatee2005 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:51 pm
FarmWife wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:49 pm
BarbBrooklyn wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:43 pm

Ex has a very different take on this; he is also, unfortunately, dx'ed with something that will kill him almost certainly in the next 5 years or so. I so appreciate everyone's chiming in on this.
sorry to hear this. If he's got $2.8mil and 5 years to live, your daughter may inherit something significant from him to change their situation. Now I'm even more sure you shouldn't contribute to this. He shouldn't either, but you probably can't stop him. Unfortunately if daughter/SIL don't learn anything about work/responsibility before then the windfall will only make it worse. I feel like SIL may just blow through it instead of using it wisely.
Kids won’t inherit anything because he is re-married. It will all go to the new wife.
How do you know this? Just curious.

Broken Man 1999
OP said "(D)H and I are divorced for many years. We have remained friendly and we are both remarried."

student
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by student » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:18 pm

oldfort wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:45 pm
ResearchMed wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:37 pm
BarbBrooklyn wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:57 pm
Dear all; you have of course confirmed what my gut was telling me.

I have trouble say "no" to ex and while I won't say "a random stranger in the internet told me to say no", I WILL tell him that I consulted some very smart wizards.

I hope it won't violate any rules if I delete this thread; it is all to recognizable to the participants.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Next time you post "anonymously" on the internet (BH or elsewhere), don't give accurate/identifying details.
Make up different numbers, different ages, different relationships... enough to veil the situation so that it isn't specific to "you" even if someone who knows you well is reading it.

RM
On the flip side, the more inaccurate or vague the details, the less relevant to your situation and the less useful the advice will be.
I think the idea probably is just change information of the type from "Unmotivated daughter and son in law" to "Unmotivated son and daughter in law."

manatee2005
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by manatee2005 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:18 pm

Broken Man 1999 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:11 pm
manatee2005 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:51 pm
FarmWife wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:49 pm
BarbBrooklyn wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:43 pm

Ex has a very different take on this; he is also, unfortunately, dx'ed with something that will kill him almost certainly in the next 5 years or so. I so appreciate everyone's chiming in on this.
sorry to hear this. If he's got $2.8mil and 5 years to live, your daughter may inherit something significant from him to change their situation. Now I'm even more sure you shouldn't contribute to this. He shouldn't either, but you probably can't stop him. Unfortunately if daughter/SIL don't learn anything about work/responsibility before then the windfall will only make it worse. I feel like SIL may just blow through it instead of using it wisely.
Kids won’t inherit anything because he is re-married. It will all go to the new wife.
How do you know this? Just curious.

Broken Man 1999
When somebody dies, their assets go to the spouse. I doubt the spouse would allow a will where any money would be given to the step children while she’s still alive. I’m not 100% sure cos I haven’t seen the will but 98% sure.
Last edited by manatee2005 on Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bampf
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by bampf » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:19 pm

Sandtrap wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:45 pm

I have seen this too many times to count. It leads to the same codependency.
One party is "helping".
The other party is . . . "taking". . . and "taking". . and . . .
And, if you stop or "don't give enough" or "don't "help" enough", then you will be blamed and the "bad person" because "you don't care" or support "family".

Can confirm. The sense of entitlement can be...daunting. Financially you have zero responsibility and I see nothing but down side here. As others have pointed out, you can send grandkids to private school, start setting aside a reserve for when things get really ugly and so forth. It isn't clear to me if this is a "all of a sudden thing" or a long running story. If covid induced, you can certainly help them through a tough situation without making 1/3rd of your retirement at risk.

manatee2005
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by manatee2005 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:19 pm

palaheel wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:14 pm
manatee2005 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:48 pm
Enroll them into Dave Ramsey financial peace university.

If that doesn’t work, offer to buy daughter a condo if she gets divorced from the deadbeat. Mortgage on 400k at these rates is very low.

That’s my view.
I agree with the Financial Peace University suggestion.

Not so sure about that other part :shock:
Haha, well it looks like the husband is a man-child who is keeping their daughter down. Never too late to get rid of dead weight and start fresh.

sailaway
Posts: 1850
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by sailaway » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:21 pm

manatee2005 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:18 pm
Broken Man 1999 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:11 pm
manatee2005 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:51 pm
FarmWife wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:49 pm
BarbBrooklyn wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:43 pm

Ex has a very different take on this; he is also, unfortunately, dx'ed with something that will kill him almost certainly in the next 5 years or so. I so appreciate everyone's chiming in on this.
sorry to hear this. If he's got $2.8mil and 5 years to live, your daughter may inherit something significant from him to change their situation. Now I'm even more sure you shouldn't contribute to this. He shouldn't either, but you probably can't stop him. Unfortunately if daughter/SIL don't learn anything about work/responsibility before then the windfall will only make it worse. I feel like SIL may just blow through it instead of using it wisely.
Kids won’t inherit anything because he is re-married. It will all go to the new wife.
How do you know this? Just curious.

Broken Man 1999
When somebody dies, their assets go to the spouse. I doubt the spouse would allow a will where any money to be given to the ex-children while she’s still alive. I’m not 100% sure cos I haven’t seen the will but 98% sure.

WTF? "Ex-children"?? They don't stop being your children! The spouse should know what is going to happen, but that doesn't automatically mean they get 100%. In my state, even the intestate laws don't give the spouse 100% if there are surviving children.

It is one thing to choose to give everything to a spouse, but ex-children?!
Last edited by sailaway on Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Katie
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by Katie » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:22 pm

The only thing worse than owning a condo jointly with an ex is owning a condo jointly with the ex's widow. If your ex passes and leaves his interest to the new wife, you'll have a whole new set of complications.

manatee2005
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by manatee2005 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:24 pm

sailaway wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:21 pm
manatee2005 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:18 pm
Broken Man 1999 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:11 pm
manatee2005 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:51 pm
FarmWife wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:49 pm


sorry to hear this. If he's got $2.8mil and 5 years to live, your daughter may inherit something significant from him to change their situation. Now I'm even more sure you shouldn't contribute to this. He shouldn't either, but you probably can't stop him. Unfortunately if daughter/SIL don't learn anything about work/responsibility before then the windfall will only make it worse. I feel like SIL may just blow through it instead of using it wisely.
Kids won’t inherit anything because he is re-married. It will all go to the new wife.
How do you know this? Just curious.

Broken Man 1999
When somebody dies, their assets go to the spouse. I doubt the spouse would allow a will where any money to be given to the ex-children while she’s still alive. I’m not 100% sure cos I haven’t seen the will but 98% sure.

WTF? "Ex-children"?? They don't stop being your children! The spouse should know what is going to happen, but that doesn't automatically mean they get 100%. In my state, even the intestate laws don't give the spouse 100% if there are surviving children.

It is one thing to choose to give everything to a spouse, but ex-children?!
Haha, I was typing too fast. I changed it to stepchildren because the new wife would be alive and they would be her step children.

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ResearchMed
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by ResearchMed » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:27 pm

oldfort wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:45 pm
ResearchMed wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:37 pm
BarbBrooklyn wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:57 pm
Dear all; you have of course confirmed what my gut was telling me.

I have trouble say "no" to ex and while I won't say "a random stranger in the internet told me to say no", I WILL tell him that I consulted some very smart wizards.

I hope it won't violate any rules if I delete this thread; it is all to recognizable to the participants.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Next time you post "anonymously" on the internet (BH or elsewhere), don't give accurate/identifying details.
Make up different numbers, different ages, different relationships... enough to veil the situation so that it isn't specific to "you" even if someone who knows you well is reading it.

RM
On the flip side, the more inaccurate or vague the details, the less relevant to your situation and the less useful the advice will be.
The veiling can usually be done in a way that the key issues are appropriately addressed.

In this case, for example, the amounts of the assets could be altered; ditto the price being considered to spend, etc., without changing the underlying situation.
No need to mention such specifics about other children, or exact amount (or *correct* exact amount) already spent, etc. Ditto with portfolio sizes...

One can also throw in a few red herrings that are irrelevant and don't change anything critical, and change others (e.g., ages, time since divorce or length of marriage, specified sex of individuals, etc.) as long as it doesn't change the *relevant* information (e.g., whether the marriage was long enough for SS benefits, or age if claiming SS is relevant, etc.).

The situation can usually be changed enough, withOUT changing the essential components, such that it could quite easily and generally apply to a great many people. It usually would not matter to the issue at hand if a 7 year old grandson were mentioned as a 9 year old granddaughter, for example, or perhaps, 2 other siblings of specified ages/sex became 1 or 3 other sibling(s) of different ages/sex, in addition to changing specific $$ amounts...
It's often not very difficult to do this.

(There have been very occasional scenarios mentioned here on BH where there are indeed some very idiosyncratic - often legal - details that are also very relevant to the question at hand. Sometimes, those have indeed been redacted or the entire thread deleted. This isn't one of them.)

RM
This signature is a placebo. You are in the control group.

Pinotage
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by Pinotage » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:31 pm

Since the OP has requested a deletion and the thread will likely be closed, a related question:

In cases like this, where the adult child is described as not great with money, why the responses to offer no support for the adult child, but place a high value on support for the grandchild?

The grandchild is a complete unknown and could very well *also* be bad with money.

Generation skipping trusts/inheritances kind of beg the same question.

“This adult child that I partially/mostly raised is bad with money. So I will leave them nothing. But I will leave money to the grandchild (being raised in part by my not-good-with-money child) who has yet to prove any level of self sufficiency.”

Not directly salient to the OP but seemed like a decent enough place to ponder.

Carry on OP, you’ve gotten great advice.

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galawdawg
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by galawdawg » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:35 pm

manatee2005 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:18 pm
Broken Man 1999 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:11 pm
manatee2005 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:51 pm
FarmWife wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:49 pm
BarbBrooklyn wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:43 pm

Ex has a very different take on this; he is also, unfortunately, dx'ed with something that will kill him almost certainly in the next 5 years or so. I so appreciate everyone's chiming in on this.
sorry to hear this. If he's got $2.8mil and 5 years to live, your daughter may inherit something significant from him to change their situation. Now I'm even more sure you shouldn't contribute to this. He shouldn't either, but you probably can't stop him. Unfortunately if daughter/SIL don't learn anything about work/responsibility before then the windfall will only make it worse. I feel like SIL may just blow through it instead of using it wisely.
Kids won’t inherit anything because he is re-married. It will all go to the new wife.
How do you know this? Just curious.

Broken Man 1999
When somebody dies, their assets go to the spouse. I doubt the spouse would allow a will where any money to be given to the ex-children while she’s still alive. I’m not 100% sure cos I haven’t seen the will but 98% sure.
Sorry, but that is not correct.

One advantage of having a will is the decedent gets to decide who gets any assets that are not jointly owned with right of survivorship. Same with naming beneficiaries on insurance policies and investment accounts as well as having a trust accounts. While a person cannot generally disinherit a spouse (in most, if not all states, the spouse is entitled to claim a spouse's share, regardless of provisions in the will), one can leave the bulk of their estate to their children from a previous marriage. The current spouse does not have to consent to whatever is written in the will, they can only challenge the will after death of the spouse and there are generally only a few legal grounds upon which a will can be held to be invalid, for example, where a will is procured by undue influence or fraud, or where the decent lacked the mental capacity to make a will. In fact, if a person does not want their current spouse to know the provisions in their will, they are under no legal obligation to share that information.

If there is no will, the law of intestate succession in the decedent's state would control the distribution of the estate.

Broken Man 1999
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by Broken Man 1999 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:41 pm

galawdawg wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:35 pm
manatee2005 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:18 pm
Broken Man 1999 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:11 pm
manatee2005 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:51 pm
FarmWife wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:49 pm


sorry to hear this. If he's got $2.8mil and 5 years to live, your daughter may inherit something significant from him to change their situation. Now I'm even more sure you shouldn't contribute to this. He shouldn't either, but you probably can't stop him. Unfortunately if daughter/SIL don't learn anything about work/responsibility before then the windfall will only make it worse. I feel like SIL may just blow through it instead of using it wisely.
Kids won’t inherit anything because he is re-married. It will all go to the new wife.
How do you know this? Just curious.

Broken Man 1999
When somebody dies, their assets go to the spouse. I doubt the spouse would allow a will where any money to be given to the ex-children while she’s still alive. I’m not 100% sure cos I haven’t seen the will but 98% sure.
Sorry, but that is not correct.

One advantage of having a will is the decedent gets to decide who gets any assets that are not jointly owned with right of survivorship. Same with naming beneficiaries on insurance policies and investment accounts as well as having a trust accounts. While a person cannot generally disinherit a spouse (in most, if not all states, the spouse is entitled to claim a spouse's share, regardless of provisions in the will), one can leave the bulk of their estate to their children from a previous marriage. The current spouse does not have to consent to whatever is written in the will, they can only challenge the will after death of the spouse and there are generally only a few legal grounds upon which a will can be held to be invalid, for example, where a will is procured by undue influence or fraud, or where the decent lacked the mental capacity to make a will. In fact, if a person does not want their current spouse to know the provisions in their will, they are under no legal obligation to share that information.

If there is no will, the law of intestate succession in the decedent's state would control the distribution of the estate.
Exactly. DW does not get all my assets, and I don't get all DW's assets.

Broken Man 1999
“If I cannot drink Bourbon and smoke cigars in Heaven then I shall not go. " -Mark Twain

backpacker61
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by backpacker61 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:46 pm

You can't afford it.

I was out of work myself for a time in the 2009/2010 real estate bubble downturn.

It's not fun to be out of work.

But there is FREE help available from your state's Workforce Commission/Department of Human Resources. All your daughter and SiL need to do is register and work the program. There are typically classes available on interviewing, resume preparation, etc.; though not sure how COVID 19 would impact it. Many state workforce commissions somewhat specialize in helping people that have been released from correctional facilities, so they could help your SiL work through behavioral changes he needs.

This would not cost you anything, but will require initiative from them. Which you should expect, frankly.
“Now shall I walk or shall I ride? | 'Ride,' Pleasure said; | 'Walk,' Joy replied.” | | ― W.H. Davies

randomguy
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by randomguy » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:47 pm

Pinotage wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:31 pm
Since the OP has requested a deletion and the thread will likely be closed, a related question:

In cases like this, where the adult child is described as not great with money, why the responses to offer no support for the adult child, but place a high value on support for the grandchild?

The grandchild is a complete unknown and could very well *also* be bad with money.

Generation skipping trusts/inheritances kind of beg the same question.

“This adult child that I partially/mostly raised is bad with money. So I will leave them nothing. But I will leave money to the grandchild (being raised in part by my not-good-with-money child) who has yet to prove any level of self sufficiency.”

Not directly salient to the OP but seemed like a decent enough place to ponder.

Carry on OP, you’ve gotten great advice.
They could be but there is at least a chance they are not. You accept you failed in one case and rather than shoving good money after bad, you hope the next one works out..:) I think a lot of times the money being left for grand kids is more earmarked for things the parents believe in (say college) more than I am giving my kid 0 dollars and my grandkid 2 million dollars.

Sounds like the ex has a problem (i.e. daughter and SIL are living with him) and wants you to solve it. Buying is obviously a horrible idea. If things like helping with rent for 6 months is a horrible idea is a lot more up to you.

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Sandtrap
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by Sandtrap » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:59 pm

BarbBrooklyn wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:57 pm
Dear all; you have of course confirmed what my gut was telling me.

I have trouble say "no" to ex and while I won't say "a random stranger in the internet told me to say no", I WILL tell him that I consulted some very smart wizards.

I hope it won't violate any rules if I delete this thread; it is all too recognizable to the participants. (ETA; took out some details).

Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Notes:
Don't worry. There are a zillion threads per day on this forum.
While not really recognizable, the existence of the thread on this forum will benefit others for a long time if they search the forum archives for the subject matter or issue in general.
Thus, you've also helped many others and will continue in the future as long as threads like this exist.

Thanks for your participation in group knowledge.

Actionably: (financially and others)

You can help your daughter directly with:

Grocery drop offs.
Clothes and household items when you clean out your closet, etc.
Be careful gifting expensive non essentials as it may be redirected to a pawn shop by others.
Amazon.com (or other) gift cards (can't buy booze with it).
Chipping in for child care if that comes up, such as a few dollars here and there dropped off at the child care center toward that child's account due. But not completely or taking it over since you have your own finances as well not to drain. Be specific to pay as you can when you are willing and able.
Staying in touch with text messaging, etc, for happy faces, emoticons, and guidance where possible.
etc.

Update your will/trust for estate planning to accomodate family dynamics.
j :happy
Wiki Bogleheads Wiki: Everything You Need to Know

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JoeRetire
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by JoeRetire » Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:13 pm

BarbBrooklyn wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:07 pm
Ex is proposing that we go in on buying them an apartment and renting it to them for the price of the maintenance while we would pay the mortgage. There would terms and conditions about upkeep (daughter is something of a hoader). Ex is concerned about Granddaughter being in a decent school district, having access to the "good" aka striving and financially astute grandparents, and trying to shape these two into some semblance of financial responsibility.

I have already poured about 20k of my money into grad school for this daughter which was basically pissed away. To buy something would be 400k or so total , so out of my 1.3M portfolio, not an insignificant chunk. Ex has about 2.8M, but I have a pension and he does not. We are both retired, mid 60s
any thoughts?
Don't do it. There is no way this plan will ever "shape these two into some semblance of financial responsibility". Nor would you ever realistically be able to enforce any terms or conditions about upkeep.

If your ex wants to spend 200k, have them use it to pay for granddaughter's schooling.
It's the end of the world as we know it. | It's the end of the world as we know it. | It's the end of the world as we know it. | And I feel fine.

muddlehead
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by muddlehead » Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:29 pm

This one's easy. We have two older kids. You've got to learn to let it go. Without the work - DNA - gene, these two are set up to be dependent on someone or someones the remainder of their lives. If you're OK w/you being that someone, involve yourself.

inbox788
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by inbox788 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:30 pm

OnTrack2020 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:25 pm
Some people will make enough money to get by throughout their life. There is nothing wrong with that. The expectations may be set too high for child #2 and SIL. Just sayin'.
Scientifically proven!
Scientists at the University of London have concluded that the key to happiness is having low expectations. They mined this conclusion from an experiment in which people gambled with small sums of money. The subjects were happiest when they won, not having expected to win.
The key to happiness - have low expectations
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/1 ... tions.html

yules
Posts: 117
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by yules » Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:32 pm

sailaway wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:21 pm
manatee2005 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:18 pm
Broken Man 1999 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:11 pm
manatee2005 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:51 pm
FarmWife wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:49 pm


sorry to hear this. If he's got $2.8mil and 5 years to live, your daughter may inherit something significant from him to change their situation. Now I'm even more sure you shouldn't contribute to this. He shouldn't either, but you probably can't stop him. Unfortunately if daughter/SIL don't learn anything about work/responsibility before then the windfall will only make it worse. I feel like SIL may just blow through it instead of using it wisely.
Kids won’t inherit anything because he is re-married. It will all go to the new wife.
How do you know this? Just curious.

Broken Man 1999
When somebody dies, their assets go to the spouse. I doubt the spouse would allow a will where any money to be given to the ex-children while she’s still alive. I’m not 100% sure cos I haven’t seen the will but 98% sure.

WTF? "Ex-children"?? They don't stop being your children! The spouse should know what is going to happen, but that doesn't automatically mean they get 100%. In my state, even the intestate laws don't give the spouse 100% if there are surviving children.

It is one thing to choose to give everything to a spouse, but ex-children?!

Your descendents stop being children when they turn 18. They are still your (adult) sons and (adult) daughters, but they no longer are your children.

UpperNwGuy
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by UpperNwGuy » Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:40 pm

OP, don't do it.

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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. » Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:40 pm

inbox788 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:30 pm
OnTrack2020 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:25 pm
Some people will make enough money to get by throughout their life. There is nothing wrong with that. The expectations may be set too high for child #2 and SIL. Just sayin'.
Scientifically proven!
Scientists at the University of London have concluded that the key to happiness is having low expectations. They mined this conclusion from an experiment in which people gambled with small sums of money. The subjects were happiest when they won, not having expected to win.
The key to happiness - have low expectations
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/1 ... tions.html
my girlfriend's been saying "Lower the bar...and go to the bar" for years now. :sharebeer
"May you live as long as you want and never want as long as you live" -- Irish Blessing | "Invest we must" -- Jack Bogle

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bottlecap
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by bottlecap » Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:51 pm

I say no to buying an apartment for people who can’t or won’t take care of it. What a headache.

I say yes to helping to ensure granddaughter is taken care of, especially if there is a major concern about school where they live. I mean major.

There has also got to be some in between. I can understand the desire to help, but it’s got to be targeted and well thought out.

Getting your own roof over your head is a big milestone in life. I think it will do no good to achieve that goal for them, emotionally or motivationally.

Good luck,

JT

hq38sq43
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Location: Bradenton FL

Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by hq38sq43 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:14 pm

Lots of good discussion discussion of "economic outpatient care" in Chapter 5 of Tom Stanley and William Danko's The Millionaire Next Door that might be useful to you.

Good luck,
Harry at Bradenton

toofache32
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by toofache32 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:12 pm

RocketShipTech wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:19 pm
How much do you intend to leave them in your will?

Just give them that amount now and let them know nothing else will be forthcoming.
How does anyone know the answer to this? My kids get whatever I have left over, minus some small charity contributions. Do you actually calculate a limited amount?

RocketShipTech
Posts: 606
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by RocketShipTech » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:14 pm

toofache32 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:12 pm
RocketShipTech wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:19 pm
How much do you intend to leave them in your will?

Just give them that amount now and let them know nothing else will be forthcoming.
How does anyone know the answer to this? My kids get whatever I have left over, minus some small charity contributions. Do you actually calculate a limited amount?
OP is in her mid-60s and retired. Presumably her living expenses and income are stable. She has a pension.

The calculation of an expected inheritance would not be that difficult.
Last edited by RocketShipTech on Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

tibbitts
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by tibbitts » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:16 pm

inbox788 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:41 pm
oldfort wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:38 pm
It's not clear whether the apartment would cost $400k or $800k. Either way, you could send the grandkids to private school k-12 for less.
Not just local private schools, but look into appropriate boarding schools.

If there is any inheritance, given the risk of mismanaging a large lump sum, an annuity may be the better choice.

Given the issues mentioned, you may want to talk to a lawyer about guardianship and custodianship.
If there was ever a case for a trust, this is it.

Mr.BB
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by Mr.BB » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:31 pm

Getting a roof over their head doesn't solve their problems, fact that probably enables them.
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit."

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Sandi_k
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by Sandi_k » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:36 pm

Nope, no way.

1) Your ex is tying purse strings in an attempt to run your daughter's life (rules on hoarding? upkeep?). His issues should be something you stay far away from.

2) What happens when they can't pay rent? And it will happen.

3) How is this fair to you and your carefully planned-for retirement? Taking 35% of your nest egg to support a daughter with issues that may NEVER improve?

4) How is this fair to your current spouse?

5) Do you really want to own real estate with your ex's current wife? How would you make decisions about rent increases, non-payment, sale, etc.?

I cannot think of a *single* good reason to do this.

illumination
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by illumination » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:41 pm

I had a relative that played this game, and then she figured out that it would be harder for family members to say no when there was a baby in the mix. So she had a few kids from a few different fathers "Are you going to let my baby starve and make us homeless?"

To the OP, you need to let them stand on their own two feet. Two working, college-educated adults can put a roof over their head without you.

It will also create intense animosity if one child gets this level of support and the others don't.

manatee2005
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by manatee2005 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:48 pm

galawdawg wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:35 pm
manatee2005 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:18 pm
Broken Man 1999 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:11 pm
manatee2005 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:51 pm
FarmWife wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:49 pm


sorry to hear this. If he's got $2.8mil and 5 years to live, your daughter may inherit something significant from him to change their situation. Now I'm even more sure you shouldn't contribute to this. He shouldn't either, but you probably can't stop him. Unfortunately if daughter/SIL don't learn anything about work/responsibility before then the windfall will only make it worse. I feel like SIL may just blow through it instead of using it wisely.
Kids won’t inherit anything because he is re-married. It will all go to the new wife.
How do you know this? Just curious.

Broken Man 1999
When somebody dies, their assets go to the spouse. I doubt the spouse would allow a will where any money to be given to the ex-children while she’s still alive. I’m not 100% sure cos I haven’t seen the will but 98% sure.
Sorry, but that is not correct.

One advantage of having a will is the decedent gets to decide who gets any assets that are not jointly owned with right of survivorship. Same with naming beneficiaries on insurance policies and investment accounts as well as having a trust accounts. While a person cannot generally disinherit a spouse (in most, if not all states, the spouse is entitled to claim a spouse's share, regardless of provisions in the will), one can leave the bulk of their estate to their children from a previous marriage. The current spouse does not have to consent to whatever is written in the will, they can only challenge the will after death of the spouse and there are generally only a few legal grounds upon which a will can be held to be invalid, for example, where a will is procured by undue influence or fraud, or where the decent lacked the mental capacity to make a will. In fact, if a person does not want their current spouse to know the provisions in their will, they are under no legal obligation to share that information.

If there is no will, the law of intestate succession in the decedent's state would control the distribution of the estate.
The guy has been remarried for 20 years. If he’s new wife is smart the will says only one thing “everything goes to the wife”.

Frugalbear
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by Frugalbear » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:50 pm

Sandtrap wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:22 pm
Married and ...... adults.

Do not further enable or grow codependencies.
“Help” = long term life subsidy payments.

Adversity grows character and self reliance.

Training wheels turn into permanent crutches if left on too long.

Drop off groceries once in awhile.
k🌺
+1
100% spot on, I see this with some in my family.

Topic Author
BarbBrooklyn
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Location: NYC

Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by BarbBrooklyn » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:58 pm

I just want to say again how much I appreciate the unanimity of the resounding "NO" you've all given.

For the curious, the will leaves the bulk of the estate to wife #2 (we are actually friendly) and specific amounts to the kids. There is also a fully funded 529 for the grand daughter's college.

A funny story. On another thread, someone talked about obscure credit confirmation questions being asked. Wife #2 and I have EACH been asked to confirm the other's birthdate during these identity checks; we keep each other's info handy.
BarbBrooklyn | "The enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."

invest4
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by invest4 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:02 pm

Sadly, you should not do anything financially unless you simply accept that it will ultimately be wasted. Whatever you think is logical and reasonable to get them off the mark and in a position to support themselves will almost certainly result in bewilderment, frustration and resentment as they will ultimately not change. I would offer that much of the advice you have already received and not just speculative...but from painful experience.

Warmest wishes.

socaldude
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by socaldude » Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:00 pm

Maaaaybe tell yourself you will help with a down payment BUT... take 2 years to make that descision and just "observe the dynamic duo and their life choices". It's almost black and white simple--- People are either hard working and reliable or they are lazy and unreliable. Don't buy a condo for lazy unreliable people !!

rob65
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Re: Unmotivated daughter and son in law.

Post by rob65 » Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:01 am

Okay, I’ll be the heretic. If I had a terminal diagnosis and could help one of my kids while I was alive, I would do it. I understand where your ex is coming from.

The “teach them to fish” philosophy here is fundamentally flawed in my view, although a discussion of my reasons for that view are inherently political in nature.

Locked