Ex-US fellows I think I've found a gem and I need your help !!

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danyboy7
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Ex-US fellows I think I've found a gem and I need your help !!

Post by danyboy7 » Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:04 am

Hi to all ex-US mates and non
Recently I've discussed a portfolio strategy inspired by optimizingblog in a Boglehead topic viewtopic.php?f=10&t=321172&start=100
This is the portfolio I'm wanting to adopt: https://imgur.com/FzI1iWK
The main problem is that I need the BIG 5 etfs to do that: UPRO,TMF,TYD,UTSL,UGL
All the brokers here in Italy that I have contacted (Fineco,Directa,Interactive Brokers) have crazy and ABSURD requirements to be respected in order to be able to get them(one of them is to have a portfolio of 500k :oops: :oops: ). It has past already 2 months and I'm painfully watching this portfolio delivering impressive performances without being able to construct it,it is so frustrating https://dashboard.m1finance.com/share/H ... 46&irgwc=1
Is there any broker,european or not I don't care,that doesn't require to be a professional investor in order to purchase those leveraged ETFs without KID ?
I have already begged Direxion and Proshares to make those stupids KIDs ! :annoyed :annoyed
Last edited by danyboy7 on Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: European fellows I think I've founded a gem and I need your help !!

Post by danyboy7 » Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:14 am

UPRO and TMF are also required to create the hedgefundie portfolio
Here is the backtest of the AWx3 proposed portfolio https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/bac ... bol11=SPXU
I cannot believe our thick headed european laws on those useless piece of paper KIDs are blocking us to copy the best strategies on the best market (USA)
We have to stand together and DO SOMETHING. I'm already bombarding Proshares and Direxion to make those insignificant KIDs :oops: :oops:
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glorat
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Re: Ex-US fellows I think I've found a gem and I need your help !!

Post by glorat » Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:23 am

danyboy7 wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:04 am
Is there any broker,european or not I don't care,that doesn't require to be a professional investor in order to purchase those leveraged ETFs without KID ?
My 2c... I wish all brokers require you to pass the professional investor test before allowing investments in such products. It's one thing to be impressed by recent performance but if you can't talk about the risks of such an investment approach you're not only risking your own financial well-being but also that of the brokers. Just look how much Robinhood had to write-off recently on the leveraged positions, not to mention the Interactive Brokers write-offs on the OIL ETFs

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Re: Ex-US fellows I think I've found a gem and I need your help !!

Post by Schlabba » Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:40 am

glorat wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:23 am
danyboy7 wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:04 am
Is there any broker,european or not I don't care,that doesn't require to be a professional investor in order to purchase those leveraged ETFs without KID ?
My 2c... I wish all brokers require you to pass the professional investor test before allowing investments in such products. It's one thing to be impressed by recent performance but if you can't talk about the risks of such an investment approach you're not only risking your own financial well-being but also that of the brokers. Just look how much Robinhood had to write-off recently on the leveraged positions, not to mention the Interactive Brokers write-offs on the OIL ETFs
Absolutely. If you buy a leveraged ETF and a bear market starts, it might take centuries to get back to break even. Look at the graph on this page: https://seekingalpha.com/article/420336 ... go-to-zero
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Re: Ex-US fellows I think I've found a gem and I need your help !!

Post by glorat » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:04 am

BTW, I'm not really meaning to have a go here. The trading strategy mentioned is a valid one. The famous question "What could possibly go wrong?" is a question I'm sure OP wants to know, as well as anyone getting into such products. Because the products in question are complex, the answers are not simple.

However, I'd also say that if you actually are able to answer the question "What could possibly go wrong?" and explain the likelihood and impacts of going wrong, then you've 90% passed what you need to know to qualify as a "Professional Investor", at which point, go do it. For example, HedgeFundie has clearly demonstrated his aptitude in understanding the risks having come under close questioning.

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Re: Ex-US fellows I think I've found a gem and I need your help !!

Post by danyboy7 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:55 am

glorat wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:23 am
danyboy7 wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:04 am
Is there any broker,european or not I don't care,that doesn't require to be a professional investor in order to purchase those leveraged ETFs without KID ?
My 2c... I wish all brokers require you to pass the professional investor test before allowing investments in such products. It's one thing to be impressed by recent performance but if you can't talk about the risks of such an investment approach you're not only risking your own financial well-being but also that of the brokers. Just look how much Robinhood had to write-off recently on the leveraged positions, not to mention the Interactive Brokers write-offs on the OIL ETFs
You absolutely don't have idea of what are you talking about :oops: :oops:
This strategy doesn't require a margin trading account
With leveraged etfs you won't get margin calls and you won't lose more than what you have put in ! And learn about :arrow: circuit-breakers in the stock market and why you can't lose all your balance with leveraged etfs in one day
-"I wish all brokers require you to pass the professional investor test" do you understand that the test here is "be rich enough in order to use those etfs" ?
Does it seem this fair or democratic to you ? They essentially excluding all non US investors only because they don't bother to spend 2 secs of their time in order to do a stupid document of 2 pages (KID).
Last edited by danyboy7 on Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ex-US fellows I think I've found a gem and I need your help !!

Post by danyboy7 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:59 am

glorat wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:04 am
BTW, I'm not really meaning to have a go here. The trading strategy mentioned is a valid one. The famous question "What could possibly go wrong?" is a question I'm sure OP wants to know, as well as anyone getting into such products. Because the products in question are complex, the answers are not simple.

However, I'd also say that if you actually are able to answer the question "What could possibly go wrong?" and explain the likelihood and impacts of going wrong, then you've 90% passed what you need to know to qualify as a "Professional Investor", at which point, go do it. For example, HedgeFundie has clearly demonstrated his aptitude in understanding the risks having come under close questioning.
Just see the backtests since 1992
With this strategy you are not borrowing extra money like in the options case,buying the leveraged etfs doesn't expose you to margin calls neither a greater loss than your starting balances.There is nothing "professional" here,it's not a crazy risky complex quantic algorithm trading here or something similar.Just buy-hold-rebalance as Hedgefundie strategy does.
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Re: Ex-US fellows I think I've found a gem and I need your help !!

Post by glorat » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:57 am

danyboy7 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:59 am

The famous question "What could possibly go wrong?" is a question I'm sure OP wants to know
Just see the backtests since 1992
If that's the answer to the question of risk, I rest my case that the average retail investor shouldn't be exposed to such products.

Exercise for the readers... Imagine trying to write a KID for the op's desired portfolio. What risks would be declared?

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Re: Ex-US fellows I think I've found a gem and I need your help !!

Post by danyboy7 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:41 am

glorat wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:57 am
danyboy7 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:59 am

The famous question "What could possibly go wrong?" is a question I'm sure OP wants to know
Just see the backtests since 1992
If that's the answer to the question of risk, I rest my case that the average retail investor shouldn't be exposed to such products.

Exercise for the readers... Imagine trying to write a KID for the op's desired portfolio. What risks would be declared?
The same as Hedgefundie's regarding the tools (leveraged etfs). Exercise for readers,immagine what would happen to Hedgefundie's portfolio if interest rates do rise and/or market stock eventually tanks for years :?: wait I have the response :idea: it would be absolutely annihilated.ASx3 instead,due to % of gold and utilities/commodities (depending on which version we are considering), would stand a much better chance.
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Re: Ex-US fellows I think I've found a gem and I need your help !!

Post by danyboy7 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:45 am

Having said that,I would like to come back to the main purpose of the post.
If someone finds any broker allowing us to buy those Etfs,just PM and I'll owe you :sharebeer
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Re: Ex-US fellows I think I've found a gem and I need your help !!

Post by Schlabba » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:53 am

danyboy7 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:41 am
glorat wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:57 am
danyboy7 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:59 am

The famous question "What could possibly go wrong?" is a question I'm sure OP wants to know
Just see the backtests since 1992
If that's the answer to the question of risk, I rest my case that the average retail investor shouldn't be exposed to such products.

Exercise for the readers... Imagine trying to write a KID for the op's desired portfolio. What risks would be declared?
The same as Hedgefundie's regarding the tools (leveraged etfs). Exercise for readers,immagine what would happen to Hedgefundie's portfolio if interest rates do rise and/or market stock eventually tanks for years :?: wait I have the response :idea: it would be absolutely annihilated.ASx3 instead,due to % of gold and utilities/commodities (depending on which version we are considering), would stand a much better chance.
The problem is there is no guarantee that any of the items you hold will go up when the others go down. There is no perfect correlation. They can all go down together, leveraged by 3 times, and then pretty much never come up again (since if you go down with 3 times leveraged you need some very high returns to get back your money, just like the article I linked explained).

You might be lucky that at least 1 of your holdings goes up so you can rebalance your way out, but that is the risk you are (planning on) taking. I agree it is probably safer than using margin for leverage.

Do you really need that risk? What are you investment goals? What is your savings rate?

On the original topic, if you are restricted by regulations I don't think you can find a legit broker that will serve your needs. If you do find a broker that is willing to ignore regulations you shouldn't send them your money :happy
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Re: Ex-US fellows I think I've found a gem and I need your help !!

Post by cinghiale » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:59 am

OP,

You joined this board just over 2 weeks ago and already have 86 posts (as of this writing), most all centered on threads you have initiated concerning complicated and risky investment schemes.

Just curious: Why here? Why look for approval or fine-tuning among forum members who largely assume that one cannot beat the market— meaning its underlying benchmarks— consistently and over the long haul? This seems akin to asking for the best way to roast a prime rib on a forum for vegans.

Within your posts and proposals, are you at all open to migrating more toward a well thought-out asset allocation based on broad market participation (read: index funds) and low fees?

This is not a swipe at you. I’m genuinely perplexed.
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Re: Ex-US fellows I think I've found a gem and I need your help !!

Post by GrowthSeeker » Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:11 am

For two purposes:
1. Devil's advocate, and
2. Maybe the only way to accomplish your goal.

What is the deal with this "KID" thing you are talking about. I searched and found "Key information documents" as a possible meaning for KID.
What is that? Is it like a test to become a stockbroker or something?
How difficult, time consuming, expensive would it be to study, take, and pass whatever the test is?
Are there other prerequisites for obtaining the required "pieces of paper" that make it impossible?

Maybe there would be some significant benefit to the learning that would occur on the road to getting the required credentials. Add to your "talent stack".
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT out to get you.

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Re: Ex-US fellows I think I've found a gem and I need your help !!

Post by danyboy7 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:44 am

GrowthSeeker wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:11 am
For two purposes:
1. Devil's advocate, and
2. Maybe the only way to accomplish your goal.

What is the deal with this "KID" thing you are talking about. I searched and found "Key information documents" as a possible meaning for KID.
What is that? Is it like a test to become a stockbroker or something?
How difficult, time consuming, expensive would it be to study, take, and pass whatever the test is?
Are there other prerequisites for obtaining the required "pieces of paper" that make it impossible?

Maybe there would be some significant benefit to the learning that would occur on the road to getting the required credentials. Add to your "talent stack".
KID are the documents required to firms as Vanguard,Blackrock,Ishares ecc by european law in order to allow an european customer to buy Etfs.If a ETF doesn't have a a KIID,an european customer can't buy it.Plain as simple. Unless you get recognized as a professional investor
Last edited by danyboy7 on Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ex-US fellows I think I've found a gem and I need your help !!

Post by wachtwoord » Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:54 am

danyboy7 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:44 am
GrowthSeeker wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:11 am
For two purposes:
1. Devil's advocate, and
2. Maybe the only way to accomplish your goal.

What is the deal with this "KID" thing you are talking about. I searched and found "Key information documents" as a possible meaning for KID.
What is that? Is it like a test to become a stockbroker or something?
How difficult, time consuming, expensive would it be to study, take, and pass whatever the test is?
Are there other prerequisites for obtaining the required "pieces of paper" that make it impossible?

Maybe there would be some significant benefit to the learning that would occur on the road to getting the required credentials. Add to your "talent stack".
KID are the documents required to firms as Vanguard,Blackrock,Ishares ecc by european law in order to allow an european customer to buy Etfs.If a ETF doesn't have a a KIID,an european customer can't buy it.Plain as simple
Exactly, so what makes you think you can find a broker which lets you buy it (and in effect break the law)?

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Re: Ex-US fellows I think I've found a gem and I need your help !!

Post by danyboy7 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:01 am

wachtwoord wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:54 am
danyboy7 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:44 am
GrowthSeeker wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:11 am
For two purposes:
1. Devil's advocate, and
2. Maybe the only way to accomplish your goal.

What is the deal with this "KID" thing you are talking about. I searched and found "Key information documents" as a possible meaning for KID.
What is that? Is it like a test to become a stockbroker or something?
How difficult, time consuming, expensive would it be to study, take, and pass whatever the test is?
Are there other prerequisites for obtaining the required "pieces of paper" that make it impossible?

Maybe there would be some significant benefit to the learning that would occur on the road to getting the required credentials. Add to your "talent stack".
KID are the documents required to firms as Vanguard,Blackrock,Ishares ecc by european law in order to allow an european customer to buy Etfs.If a ETF doesn't have a a KIID,an european customer can't buy it.Plain as simple
Exactly, so what makes you think you can find a broker which lets you buy it (and in effect break the law)?
There are some exceptions,for example if you manage to be considered a Professional Investors.And some brokers have removed the "just be enough rich to have a 500k porftolio" requirement in order to get recognized as a professional one.Obviously I'm not willing to do nothing illegal :annoyed
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Re: Ex-US fellows I think I've found a gem and I need your help !!

Post by xerxes101 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:08 pm

cinghiale wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:59 am
OP,

You joined this board just over 2 weeks ago and already have 86 posts (as of this writing), most all centered on threads you have initiated concerning complicated and risky investment schemes.
^^^ This, As a member of this forum, I am 100% in agreement that the behavior highlighted above is dangerous and questionable behavior by the OP, and I believe because of the sheer number of the posts and also the general inconsistency with the philosophy of Bogleheads as investors in this forum, the moderators of the forum should take note and at the very least discourage this type of behavior.

I believe there is ample and sufficient reason for the following policy adopted by Vanguard (goes without saying that many of us in this forum share values with this organization):

"On January 22, 2019, Vanguard stopped accepting purchases in leveraged or inverse mutual funds, ETFs (exchange-traded funds), or ETNs (exchange-traded notes)."

Excerpt from: https://investor.vanguard.com/investing ... se-etf-etn

OP, I understand you are very enthusiastic and passionate about your approach. Good luck with your journey; however, I agree with others who are trying to tell you that this is not the right forum.

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Re: European fellows I think I've founded a gem and I need your help !!

Post by Northern Flicker » Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:56 pm

danyboy7 wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:14 am
UPRO and TMF are also required to create the hedgefundie portfolio
Here is the backtest of the AWx3 proposed portfolio https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/bac ... bol11=SPXU
I cannot believe our thick headed european laws on those useless piece of paper KIDs are blocking us to copy the best strategies on the best market (USA)
We have to stand together and DO SOMETHING. I'm already bombarding Proshares and Direxion to make those insignificant KIDs :oops: :oops:
You don't need a broker. You need a time machine so you can go back in time and invest at the start of the backtest.
Risk is not a guarantor of return.

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Re: Ex-US fellows I think I've found a gem and I need your help !!

Post by danyboy7 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:32 pm

xerxes101 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:08 pm
cinghiale wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:59 am
OP,

You joined this board just over 2 weeks ago and already have 86 posts (as of this writing), most all centered on threads you have initiated concerning complicated and risky investment schemes.
^^^ This, As a member of this forum, I am 100% in agreement that the behavior highlighted above is dangerous and questionable behavior by the OP, and I believe because of the sheer number of the posts and also the general inconsistency with the philosophy of Bogleheads as investors in this forum, the moderators of the forum should take note and at the very least discourage this type of behavior.

I believe there is ample and sufficient reason for the following policy adopted by Vanguard (goes without saying that many of us in this forum share values with this organization):

"On January 22, 2019, Vanguard stopped accepting purchases in leveraged or inverse mutual funds, ETFs (exchange-traded funds), or ETNs (exchange-traded notes)."

Excerpt from: https://investor.vanguard.com/investing ... se-etf-etn

OP, I understand you are very enthusiastic and passionate about your approach. Good luck with your journey; however, I agree with others who are trying to tell you that this is not the right forum.
Tell me,what is dangerous and questionable :oops: ? Am I saying "Hey guys,just put all your money on this strategy" ? NO,this is not a financial advice.Anyone should study before adopting those portfolios
Now tell me why Hedgefundie is safe and ok and mine is dangerous ? Both are using leveraged etfs,no margin account needed neither your risk to lose more than what you've started with it. In my own opinion,the latter one is more dangerous because it would be absolutely destroyed in rising rates scenario and/or market stock tanking.
And please,if someone is not able to distinguish Leveraged Etfs from margin account options, :arrow: avoid to post here please.
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Re: Ex-US fellows I think I've found a gem and I need your help !!

Post by David Jay » Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:41 pm

danyboy7 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:32 pm
Now tell me why Hedgefundie is safe and ok and mine is dangerous?
Hedgefundie's strategy is not "safe", he is only investing a small percentage of his portfolio, and he qualifies (on portfolio size).
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Re: Ex-US fellows I think I've found a gem and I need your help !!

Post by 000 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:55 pm

danyboy7 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:32 pm
Now tell me why Hedgefundie is safe and ok and mine is dangerous?
Have you read the entirety of both Hedgefundie Excellent Adventure threads? Most Bogleheads do not think the Excellent Adventure is safe. Even Hedgefundie suggested doing it with a limited portion of the portfolio.

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Re: Ex-US fellows I think I've found a gem and I need your help !!

Post by xerxes101 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:00 pm

danyboy7 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:32 pm
xerxes101 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:08 pm
cinghiale wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:59 am
OP,

You joined this board just over 2 weeks ago and already have 86 posts (as of this writing), most all centered on threads you have initiated concerning complicated and risky investment schemes.
^^^ This, As a member of this forum, I am 100% in agreement that the behavior highlighted above is dangerous and questionable behavior by the OP, and I believe because of the sheer number of the posts and also the general inconsistency with the philosophy of Bogleheads as investors in this forum, the moderators of the forum should take note and at the very least discourage this type of behavior.

I believe there is ample and sufficient reason for the following policy adopted by Vanguard (goes without saying that many of us in this forum share values with this organization):

"On January 22, 2019, Vanguard stopped accepting purchases in leveraged or inverse mutual funds, ETFs (exchange-traded funds), or ETNs (exchange-traded notes)."

Excerpt from: https://investor.vanguard.com/investing ... se-etf-etn

OP, I understand you are very enthusiastic and passionate about your approach. Good luck with your journey; however, I agree with others who are trying to tell you that this is not the right forum.
Tell me,what is dangerous and questionable :oops: ? Am I saying "Hey guys,just put all your money on this strategy" ? NO,this is not a financial advice.Anyone should study before adopting those portfolios
Now tell me why Hedgefundie is safe and ok and mine is dangerous ? Both are using leveraged etfs,no margin account needed neither your risk to lose more than what you've started with it. In my own opinion,the latter one is more dangerous because it would be absolutely destroyed in rising rates scenario and/or market stock tanking.
And please,if someone is not able to distinguish Leveraged Etfs from margin account options, :arrow: avoid to post here please.
I believe you are mis-characterizing and misrepresenting my response. Vanguard has no problem with margin accounts. Vanguard's policy is designed to dissuade clients from engaging in what you characterize here as "a gem."
Last edited by xerxes101 on Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ex-US fellows I think I've found a gem and I need your help !!

Post by 000 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:11 pm

xerxes101 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:08 pm
cinghiale wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:59 am
OP,

You joined this board just over 2 weeks ago and already have 86 posts (as of this writing), most all centered on threads you have initiated concerning complicated and risky investment schemes.
^^^ This, As a member of this forum, I am 100% in agreement that the behavior highlighted above is dangerous and questionable behavior by the OP, and I believe because of the sheer number of the posts and also the general inconsistency with the philosophy of Bogleheads as investors in this forum, the moderators of the forum should take note and at the very least discourage this type of behavior.

I believe there is ample and sufficient reason for the following policy adopted by Vanguard (goes without saying that many of us in this forum share values with this organization):

"On January 22, 2019, Vanguard stopped accepting purchases in leveraged or inverse mutual funds, ETFs (exchange-traded funds), or ETNs (exchange-traded notes)."

Excerpt from: https://investor.vanguard.com/investing ... se-etf-etn

OP, I understand you are very enthusiastic and passionate about your approach. Good luck with your journey; however, I agree with others who are trying to tell you that this is not the right forum.
I think Vanguard's stance towards LETFs is more based on liability concerns than the actual risk of the products. For example, Vanguard allows penny stock trading on their platform.

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Re: Ex-US fellows I think I've found a gem and I need your help !!

Post by xerxes101 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:21 pm

000 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:11 pm

I think Vanguard's stance towards LETFs is more based on liability concerns than the actual risk of the products. For example, Vanguard allows penny stock trading on their platform.
Here is a verbatim quote from the Vanguard website:

"Beginning January 22, Vanguard will no longer accept purchases in leveraged or inverse mutual funds, ETFs (exchange-traded funds), or ETNs (exchange-traded notes). We're making this change because these products and services do not align with our investors' focus on the long term. Most of these investments are designed to deliver their stated returns for only a short period (for example, 1 day or 1 month). Their extremely short-term, speculative nature is contrary to the long-term focus shared by most Vanguard investors."

also:

"This change is part of an ongoing effort to align the products and services we offer with our investors’ focus on the long term. These investments, which are generally incompatible with a buy-and-hold strategy, run counter to this long-term focus."

see also, investor alert by FINRA:

https://www.finra.org/investors/alerts/ ... -investors

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Re: Ex-US fellows I think I've found a gem and I need your help !!

Post by 000 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:23 pm

xerxes101 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:21 pm
000 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:11 pm

I think Vanguard's stance towards LETFs is more based on liability concerns than the actual risk of the products. For example, Vanguard allows penny stock trading on their platform.
Here is a verbatim quote from the Vanguard website:

"Beginning January 22, Vanguard will no longer accept purchases in leveraged or inverse mutual funds, ETFs (exchange-traded funds), or ETNs (exchange-traded notes). We're making this change because these products and services do not align with our investors' focus on the long term. Most of these investments are designed to deliver their stated returns for only a short period (for example, 1 day or 1 month). Their extremely short-term, speculative nature is contrary to the long-term focus shared by most Vanguard investors."

also:

"This change is part of an ongoing effort to align the products and services we offer with our investors’ focus on the long term. These investments, which are generally incompatible with a buy-and-hold strategy, run counter to this long-term focus."

see also, investor alert by FINRA:

https://www.finra.org/investors/alerts/ ... -investors
Sure, that's what they said. They still let people day trade penny stocks. You can also trade options and use margin on their platform. But LETFs bring higher risk investments to the mainstream with more accompanying liability.

glorat
Posts: 616
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:17 am

Re: Ex-US fellows I think I've found a gem and I need your help !!

Post by glorat » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:51 pm

danyboy7 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:44 am
GrowthSeeker wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:11 am
For two purposes:
1. Devil's advocate, and
2. Maybe the only way to accomplish your goal.

What is the deal with this "KID" thing you are talking about. I searched and found "Key information documents" as a possible meaning for KID.
What is that? Is it like a test to become a stockbroker or something?
How difficult, time consuming, expensive would it be to study, take, and pass whatever the test is?
Are there other prerequisites for obtaining the required "pieces of paper" that make it impossible?

Maybe there would be some significant benefit to the learning that would occur on the road to getting the required credentials. Add to your "talent stack".
KID are the documents required to firms as Vanguard,Blackrock,Ishares ecc by european law in order to allow an european customer to buy Etfs.If a ETF doesn't have a a KIID,an european customer can't buy it.Plain as simple. Unless you get recognized as a professional investor
I think this is an important and educational topic. Unlike in the US and Asia, Europe has chosen to institute strong consumer protections regarding retail investments. For any investment in those European regions, by law risks must be clearly laid out to customers in the form of these Key Information Documents and related documents. Many fund providers even will force the customer to sign that they had all the risks properly explained to them, or else they are at risk of being sued if the fund tanks for reasons the retail customer didn't understand. Europe believes this strikes the appropriate balance between giving wide access to investment products while ensuring risk is mitigated.

As noted, to bypass this requirement, you need to be classified as a "Professional Investor" and that really is the direct answer to the OP's question. Such investors are assumed to understand all necessary risks when putting themselves at risk.

As for OP - well I suppose I am having a go this time. Forgive me, I'm trying to be constructive with my criticism here and I'm posting as much for other readers as yourself. You've implied that
  • Backtests provide good evidence of risk mitigation of your proposed portfolio
  • Hedgefundie's portfolio is a safe investment choice
  • Since you're employing no margin, risk is sufficiently mitigated
I strongly disagree on all 3 statements. I'll offer 3 short counterarguments
  • Regarding backtests, there are numerous issues, but I'll simply state one... correlation risk
  • Hedgefundie has himself said that his proposed portfolio is not safe, he does not recommend others to follow it and he does not put a significant portion of his investment portfolio in it.
  • The OIL ETF debacle. The long only folk lost a lot. The margin users made the brokers lose a lot. Brokers need to protect themselves.
In summary, European regulations exist to protect people exactly like yourself, while still offering a way out if you can be shown to be "Professional". Agree or disagree with that philosophy, that's what Europe does.

User avatar
Topic Author
danyboy7
Posts: 97
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:35 am

Re: Ex-US fellows I think I've found a gem and I need your help !!

Post by danyboy7 » Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:21 am

glorat wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:51 pm
danyboy7 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:44 am
GrowthSeeker wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:11 am
For two purposes:
1. Devil's advocate, and
2. Maybe the only way to accomplish your goal.

What is the deal with this "KID" thing you are talking about. I searched and found "Key information documents" as a possible meaning for KID.
What is that? Is it like a test to become a stockbroker or something?
How difficult, time consuming, expensive would it be to study, take, and pass whatever the test is?
Are there other prerequisites for obtaining the required "pieces of paper" that make it impossible?

Maybe there would be some significant benefit to the learning that would occur on the road to getting the required credentials. Add to your "talent stack".
KID are the documents required to firms as Vanguard,Blackrock,Ishares ecc by european law in order to allow an european customer to buy Etfs.If a ETF doesn't have a a KIID,an european customer can't buy it.Plain as simple. Unless you get recognized as a professional investor
I think this is an important and educational topic. Unlike in the US and Asia, Europe has chosen to institute strong consumer protections regarding retail investments. For any investment in those European regions, by law risks must be clearly laid out to customers in the form of these Key Information Documents and related documents. Many fund providers even will force the customer to sign that they had all the risks properly explained to them, or else they are at risk of being sued if the fund tanks for reasons the retail customer didn't understand. Europe believes this strikes the appropriate balance between giving wide access to investment products while ensuring risk is mitigated.

As noted, to bypass this requirement, you need to be classified as a "Professional Investor" and that really is the direct answer to the OP's question. Such investors are assumed to understand all necessary risks when putting themselves at risk.

As for OP - well I suppose I am having a go this time. Forgive me, I'm trying to be constructive with my criticism here and I'm posting as much for other readers as yourself. You've implied that
  • Backtests provide good evidence of risk mitigation of your proposed portfolio
  • Hedgefundie's portfolio is a safe investment choice
  • Since you're employing no margin, risk is sufficiently mitigated
I strongly disagree on all 3 statements. I'll offer 3 short counterarguments
  • Regarding backtests, there are numerous issues, but I'll simply state one... correlation risk
  • Hedgefundie has himself said that his proposed portfolio is not safe, he does not recommend others to follow it and he does not put a significant portion of his investment portfolio in it.
  • The OIL ETF debacle. The long only folk lost a lot. The margin users made the brokers lose a lot. Brokers need to protect themselves.
In summary, European regulations exist to protect people exactly like yourself, while still offering a way out if you can be shown to be "Professional". Agree or disagree with that philosophy, that's what Europe does.
-"As noted, to bypass this requirement, you need to be classified as a "Professional Investor" and that really is the direct answer to the OP's question. Such investors are assumed to understand all necessary risks when putting themselves at risk" :oops: :oops:
In order to be regarded as a Professional Investor,you should have a 500k € porftolio :moneybag :moneybag .This is a wealth requirement rather than a risk-knowing one. I remind you that I'm (and other europeans) still able to purchase a lot of crazy Etfs like Solactive 10Y US Treasury Futures Daily (-2x) Inverse so there is not such a philosophy protection. And this because the etf's firm did bother to produce the KID. I hope Direxion and Proshares will bother to lose 2 minutes of their time and will follow the same path because otherwise it's extremely difficult to get those etfs.
The Oil ETF has nothing to do with this portfolio and again :oops: ,neither the margin trading account.
Anyone finding a optimal broker,PM me.
I have seen the light

Anon9001
Posts: 574
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2019 9:28 am
Location: भारत

Re: Ex-US fellows I think I've found a gem and I need your help !!

Post by Anon9001 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:37 am

As long as you understand this is an advanced version of gambling and are only going to put money you can see go down 100% and not regret it than by all means do it. I have no idea how the European investment scene is so I will not comment on how to access these instruments.

Valuethinker
Posts: 40537
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 am

Re: Ex-US fellows I think I've found a gem and I need your help !!

Post by Valuethinker » Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:01 am

If you want to gamble on markets, up or down, why not use Contracts For Difference?

You can gear yourself to heck with these.

All perfectly legal. I assume when UK transition out of EU in January ends, broker will have moved your account to an EU jurisdiction?

xerxes101
Posts: 310
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:25 am

Re: Ex-US fellows I think I've found a gem and I need your help !!

Post by xerxes101 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:41 pm

OP,
Note Exhibits A and B below...I am hoping these will serve to discourage you from taking a leveraged approach:
(go through Google News if you can't open it on your browser)

A
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... r-earnings

B
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -from-lows

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