College in fall

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AD3
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Re: College in fall

Post by AD3 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:21 am

Anyone believe that college in the fall will be anything other than online learning? The amount of spread seems uncontrollable .

ncbill
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Re: College in fall

Post by ncbill » Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:45 pm

AD3 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:21 am
Anyone believe that college in the fall will be anything other than online learning? The amount of spread seems uncontrollable .
I can see everyone going back...then widespread outbreaks in September/October, sending them all back off campus again.

Rather than go back to an apartment my kid & his buddies are leasing an off-campus house with pool & large, fenced-in backyard for this coming year...they plan to stay together there rather than come back home (like last semester) should the above occur.

MDfan
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Re: College in fall

Post by MDfan » Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:08 pm

AD3 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:21 am
Anyone believe that college in the fall will be anything other than online learning? The amount of spread seems uncontrollable .
I think that money will rule and lots of kids will go back. Most of the large lecture classes at my daughter's college are moving on-line and they are still planning on having kids on campus. Who knows? Things may look different a month from now (for better or worse).

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willthrill81
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Re: College in fall

Post by willthrill81 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:13 pm

MDfan wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:08 pm
AD3 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:21 am
Anyone believe that college in the fall will be anything other than online learning? The amount of spread seems uncontrollable .
I think that money will rule and lots of kids will go back.
I have little doubt that many universities will start with face-to-face instruction, but most will likely revert to online sometime in the fall. Few will not be online from January forward.

Yes, money always rules, but not just on the revenue side. The last thing that a university wants is a string of lawsuits from students, their parents, etc. who get infected and all of the fallout from those infection as a direct result of face-to-face instruction. Even if the university were to win such lawsuits, defending them in the courts would be very expensive and could drag on for years. If/when the threat of an outbreak becomes significant, universities will move online again. The only exception I can foresee will be universities in states/areas where the threat seems low (e.g. University of Wyoming or Montana State University).
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

DaftInvestor
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Re: College in fall

Post by DaftInvestor » Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:26 pm

Most Massachusetts Universities/Colleges have already announced all classes will be online. The City-based ones (Havard, Lesley, etc.) seem to be closing down entirely - remote only. The very large campus of UMass-Amherst (24K Undergrad + 7K Grad students) is doing all online but is giving students choices as to whether or not they want to come back and live in the dorm:
https://www.wbur.org/edify/2020/06/29/u ... -fall-plan

simas
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Re: College in fall

Post by simas » Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:38 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:13 pm
MDfan wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:08 pm
AD3 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:21 am
Anyone believe that college in the fall will be anything other than online learning? The amount of spread seems uncontrollable .
I think that money will rule and lots of kids will go back.
I have little doubt that many universities will start with face-to-face instruction, but most will likely revert to online sometime in the fall. Few will not be online from January forward.

Yes, money always rules, but not just on the revenue side. The last thing that a university wants is a string of lawsuits from students, their parents, etc. who get infected and all of the fallout from those infection as a direct result of face-to-face instruction. Even if the university were to win such lawsuits, defending them in the courts would be very expensive and could drag on for years. If/when the threat of an outbreak becomes significant, universities will move online again. The only exception I can foresee will be universities in states/areas where the threat seems low (e.g. University of Wyoming or Montana State University).
I think you greatly overestimate the threat of lawsuits or the impact it takes. Remember, universities as any other non government organization is simply going to refer to the guidance (and transfer all risk ) to health authorizes (CDC and the local Dept of Health for your state/territory)
- if health authorities tell universities that in person is ok as long as X, Y, Z is done => then any lawsuits/complaints/whatever are simply going to be irrelevant and referred to said authority as long as guidelines are followed . Don't like it - > blame God.
- if heath authorities do not allow then, then it is the end of it as well. If as student/parent/tuition payer you do not like it being limited to online only => same response, blame God and sue God (with same success).

universities (or schools) are educational organizations (at least supposed to be) , they are not in health policy making - that is your elected officials as implemented through relevant state/federal structures . They will follow whatever rules your state would set when come times.

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willthrill81
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Re: College in fall

Post by willthrill81 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:31 pm

simas wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:38 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:13 pm
MDfan wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:08 pm
AD3 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:21 am
Anyone believe that college in the fall will be anything other than online learning? The amount of spread seems uncontrollable .
I think that money will rule and lots of kids will go back.
I have little doubt that many universities will start with face-to-face instruction, but most will likely revert to online sometime in the fall. Few will not be online from January forward.

Yes, money always rules, but not just on the revenue side. The last thing that a university wants is a string of lawsuits from students, their parents, etc. who get infected and all of the fallout from those infection as a direct result of face-to-face instruction. Even if the university were to win such lawsuits, defending them in the courts would be very expensive and could drag on for years. If/when the threat of an outbreak becomes significant, universities will move online again. The only exception I can foresee will be universities in states/areas where the threat seems low (e.g. University of Wyoming or Montana State University).
I think you greatly overestimate the threat of lawsuits or the impact it takes. Remember, universities as any other non government organization is simply going to refer to the guidance (and transfer all risk ) to health authorizes (CDC and the local Dept of Health for your state/territory)
- if health authorities tell universities that in person is ok as long as X, Y, Z is done => then any lawsuits/complaints/whatever are simply going to be irrelevant and referred to said authority as long as guidelines are followed . Don't like it - > blame God.
- if heath authorities do not allow then, then it is the end of it as well. If as student/parent/tuition payer you do not like it being limited to online only => same response, blame God and sue God (with same success).

universities (or schools) are educational organizations (at least supposed to be) , they are not in health policy making - that is your elected officials as implemented through relevant state/federal structures . They will follow whatever rules your state would set when come times.
I agree that universities, certainly public and mostly all private, will follow local health dept. regulations to the letter. But they definitely won't be making such decisions in order to maximize revenue as someone else implied. They'll be doing it in order to CYA. That was my point.

In the greater sphere, there is still uncertainty among some as to whether an organization is exposed to even partly legitimate lawsuits if it choose to voluntarily open and its customers, employees, etc. are subsequently diagnosed with COVID. I'm not saying that such suits would have genuine legal merit or practically go anywhere, but the mere threat of them can be enough to have an impact on organizations' actions.

I know for a fact that the university I work for has done many things in order to avoid the ill-perceived threat of completely meritless lawsuits.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

MDfan
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Re: College in fall

Post by MDfan » Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:42 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:13 pm
MDfan wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:08 pm
AD3 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:21 am
Anyone believe that college in the fall will be anything other than online learning? The amount of spread seems uncontrollable .
I think that money will rule and lots of kids will go back.
I have little doubt that many universities will start with face-to-face instruction, but most will likely revert to online sometime in the fall. Few will not be online from January forward.

Yes, money always rules, but not just on the revenue side. The last thing that a university wants is a string of lawsuits from students, their parents, etc. who get infected and all of the fallout from those infection as a direct result of face-to-face instruction. Even if the university were to win such lawsuits, defending them in the courts would be very expensive and could drag on for years. If/when the threat of an outbreak becomes significant, universities will move online again. The only exception I can foresee will be universities in states/areas where the threat seems low (e.g. University of Wyoming or Montana State University).

I thought most were adding addendums to housing contracts to avoid Covid-related lawsuits?

mikemagz11
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Re: College in fall

Post by mikemagz11 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:57 pm

AD3 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:21 am
Anyone believe that college in the fall will be anything other than online learning? The amount of spread seems uncontrollable .
I work at a college in NYC and we are planning to have kids on campus with a hybrid between partial in person classes and online classes. Most schools seem to be planning for kids to be on campus.

A lot of smaller schools won't survive if students aren't on campus in the fall.

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willthrill81
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Re: College in fall

Post by willthrill81 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:55 pm

MDfan wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:42 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:13 pm
MDfan wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:08 pm
AD3 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:21 am
Anyone believe that college in the fall will be anything other than online learning? The amount of spread seems uncontrollable .
I think that money will rule and lots of kids will go back.
I have little doubt that many universities will start with face-to-face instruction, but most will likely revert to online sometime in the fall. Few will not be online from January forward.

Yes, money always rules, but not just on the revenue side. The last thing that a university wants is a string of lawsuits from students, their parents, etc. who get infected and all of the fallout from those infection as a direct result of face-to-face instruction. Even if the university were to win such lawsuits, defending them in the courts would be very expensive and could drag on for years. If/when the threat of an outbreak becomes significant, universities will move online again. The only exception I can foresee will be universities in states/areas where the threat seems low (e.g. University of Wyoming or Montana State University).

I thought most were adding addendums to housing contracts to avoid Covid-related lawsuits?
I haven't heard of that, but it sounds wise to me.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

MAandMEMom
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Re: College in fall

Post by MAandMEMom » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:55 pm

My son’s Boston school is adding an addendum with a no refund clause if they need to vacate. All but one lab (he’s engineering) is slated to be online and he will likely commute that day. My daughter is an incoming athlete at a division 1 school right next door to sophomore son. This university is forging ahead, but has yet to address athletics. The potential loss of a year of eligibility along with the high tuition cost makes for a scary proposition. We have some key decisions to make in the next two weeks.

I’m also an administrator in higher ed and in IT of all things. We are working harder than ever. The increase in administration in the recent decades is definitely as a result of more regulations and more need for student services such as advising and personal counseling. Program review and boutique majors are definitely concerning and especially at a tuition driven institution (not my case) and I can see imminent cuts. The cliff was coming by 2025 - Covid just took about five years off many colleges’ opportunity to plan incremental for it.

RetiredCSProf
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Re: College in fall

Post by RetiredCSProf » Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:12 pm

My son is entering his senior year at a Cal State Univ, which announced over a month ago that they would be online, with few exceptions. He was hoping that his class in "advanced film production" would be face-to-face, but not happening.

I saw on the news today that one public university, I think it was Univ of Wisconsin, is asking for government help with the supply chain to contain the virus (PPE and test kits). The logistics and cost of containing the virus on campus is another factor dissuading schools from face-to-face classes.

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willthrill81
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Re: College in fall

Post by willthrill81 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:24 pm

MAandMEMom wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:55 pm
The increase in administration in the recent decades is definitely as a result of more regulations and more need for student services such as advising and personal counseling. Program review and boutique majors are definitely concerning and especially at a tuition driven institution (not my case) and I can see imminent cuts. The cliff was coming by 2025 - Covid just took about five years off many colleges’ opportunity to plan incremental for it.
I entirely agree, though at least some administration at my institution is not really needed for anything meaningful, including regulation or student services.

The so-called 'enrollment cliff' of 2025 was certainly made out to be a big bugaboo for higher ed, but it turns out that COVID was a far bigger threat. After higher ed tapers off the hack-and-slash that is already underway at many institutions, 2025 may seem downright uneventful. My university will have to reduce its overall budget by at least 15% and probably more by the end of the next academic year.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

tibbitts
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Re: College in fall

Post by tibbitts » Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:39 pm

SimonJester wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:11 am
A big part of college is learning how to live on your own and transitioning from adolescence to adulthood. I truly do not believe this happens well for those still living with parents. I fear we might be creating a whole new generation of failure to launch children!
I completely disagree with this. The typical college residential experience bears zero resemblance to living in the real world. If you truly meant "live on your own", as in completely alone, I would agree with that.

MDfan
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Re: College in fall

Post by MDfan » Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:41 am

willthrill81 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:55 pm
MDfan wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:42 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:13 pm
MDfan wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:08 pm
AD3 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:21 am
Anyone believe that college in the fall will be anything other than online learning? The amount of spread seems uncontrollable .
I think that money will rule and lots of kids will go back.
I have little doubt that many universities will start with face-to-face instruction, but most will likely revert to online sometime in the fall. Few will not be online from January forward.

Yes, money always rules, but not just on the revenue side. The last thing that a university wants is a string of lawsuits from students, their parents, etc. who get infected and all of the fallout from those infection as a direct result of face-to-face instruction. Even if the university were to win such lawsuits, defending them in the courts would be very expensive and could drag on for years. If/when the threat of an outbreak becomes significant, universities will move online again. The only exception I can foresee will be universities in states/areas where the threat seems low (e.g. University of Wyoming or Montana State University).

I thought most were adding addendums to housing contracts to avoid Covid-related lawsuits?
I haven't heard of that, but it sounds wise to me.

One example. I'm assuming this will be standard at pretty much all colleges. Most are also adding an addendum saying they won't pay refunds again if they have to shut down like last Spring.

https://housing.virginia.edu/housing-addendum-undergrad

stoptothink
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Re: College in fall

Post by stoptothink » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:56 am

tibbitts wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:39 pm
SimonJester wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:11 am
A big part of college is learning how to live on your own and transitioning from adolescence to adulthood. I truly do not believe this happens well for those still living with parents. I fear we might be creating a whole new generation of failure to launch children!
I completely disagree with this. The typical college residential experience bears zero resemblance to living in the real world. If you truly meant "live on your own", as in completely alone, I would agree with that.
+1. Unless the young adult is supporting themselves by working to pay for school/living expenses (which has been called "child abuse" on this board countless times), it is nothing like the "real world".

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warowits
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Re: College in fall

Post by warowits » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:36 am

stoptothink wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:56 am
tibbitts wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:39 pm
SimonJester wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:11 am
A big part of college is learning how to live on your own and transitioning from adolescence to adulthood. I truly do not believe this happens well for those still living with parents. I fear we might be creating a whole new generation of failure to launch children!
I completely disagree with this. The typical college residential experience bears zero resemblance to living in the real world. If you truly meant "live on your own", as in completely alone, I would agree with that.
+1. Unless the young adult is supporting themselves by working to pay for school/living expenses (which has been called "child abuse" on this board countless times), it is nothing like the "real world".
I have to agree that moving to a dorm with a meal plan, all paid by mom and dad, will not teach a young adult most of the skills that getting a job and living off campus on your own dime will. However we can’t forget that going to work part time while attending a 4 year college is highly unlikely to cover tuition and living expenses, even at a public school. It may have worked a long time ago, but for most students most of the time, parents will need to help with four year college tuition. Especially well to do parents, as their kids pay far more for college!

stoptothink
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Re: College in fall

Post by stoptothink » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:44 am

warowits wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:36 am
stoptothink wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:56 am
tibbitts wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:39 pm
SimonJester wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:11 am
A big part of college is learning how to live on your own and transitioning from adolescence to adulthood. I truly do not believe this happens well for those still living with parents. I fear we might be creating a whole new generation of failure to launch children!
I completely disagree with this. The typical college residential experience bears zero resemblance to living in the real world. If you truly meant "live on your own", as in completely alone, I would agree with that.
+1. Unless the young adult is supporting themselves by working to pay for school/living expenses (which has been called "child abuse" on this board countless times), it is nothing like the "real world".
However we can’t forget that going to work part time while attending a 4 year college is highly unlikely to cover tuition and living expenses, even at a public school. It may have worked a long time ago, but for most students most of the time, parents will need to help with four year college tuition. Especially well to do parents, as their kids pay far more for college!
Not sure how that is relevant to the statement Tibbits and I made.

Don't want to open Pandora's box with this discussion (between my family and my wife's, there are 9 individuals who received a university degree in the last decade and received a combined $.00 in help from parents). "Most students, most of the time" require financial help from parents: yes, and my young kids have their college already covered (529s) by mom and dad. Topic for another thread.
Last edited by stoptothink on Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

e5116
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Re: College in fall

Post by e5116 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:45 am

stoptothink wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:56 am
tibbitts wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:39 pm
SimonJester wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:11 am
A big part of college is learning how to live on your own and transitioning from adolescence to adulthood. I truly do not believe this happens well for those still living with parents. I fear we might be creating a whole new generation of failure to launch children!
I completely disagree with this. The typical college residential experience bears zero resemblance to living in the real world. If you truly meant "live on your own", as in completely alone, I would agree with that.
+1. Unless the young adult is supporting themselves by working to pay for school/living expenses (which has been called "child abuse" on this board countless times), it is nothing like the "real world".
While I agree that living at a college campus isn't the same as the "real world," that doesn't mean it's not without merit. Living at home with parents also isn't the same as the "real world." College experiences definitely serve to broaden social/educational/independence, which often serve people well in preparing them for work on their own. I view it as a stepping stone experience. Frankly, my college experience in juggling intense academics and everything else on my plate, was MUCH MUCH more difficult (and stressful) than my transition to living on my own in the "real world." Of course, everybody's situation is unique. But being on campus in college definitely helped prepare me for my first job and living on my own (financially and otherwise).

stoptothink
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Re: College in fall

Post by stoptothink » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:52 am

e5116 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:45 am
stoptothink wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:56 am
tibbitts wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:39 pm
SimonJester wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:11 am
A big part of college is learning how to live on your own and transitioning from adolescence to adulthood. I truly do not believe this happens well for those still living with parents. I fear we might be creating a whole new generation of failure to launch children!
I completely disagree with this. The typical college residential experience bears zero resemblance to living in the real world. If you truly meant "live on your own", as in completely alone, I would agree with that.
+1. Unless the young adult is supporting themselves by working to pay for school/living expenses (which has been called "child abuse" on this board countless times), it is nothing like the "real world".
While I agree that living at a college campus isn't the same as the "real world," that doesn't mean it's not without merit. Living at home with parents also isn't the same as the "real world." College experiences definitely serve to broaden social/educational/independence, which often serve people well in preparing them for work on their own. I view it as a stepping stone experience. Frankly, my college experience in juggling intense academics and everything else on my plate, was MUCH MUCH more difficult (and stressful) than my transition to living on my own in the "real world." Of course, everybody's situation is unique. But being on campus in college definitely helped prepare me for my first job and living on my own (financially and otherwise).
No disagreement here. Just being away from parents for an extended period is a huge step for many young adults. There was a single step from high school to total independence for me (I'm not saying this is ideal, it just was for me and all my siblings - as well as the wife and all her siblings), so the "college experience" was the easy part.

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willthrill81
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Re: College in fall

Post by willthrill81 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:56 am

tibbitts wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:39 pm
SimonJester wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:11 am
A big part of college is learning how to live on your own and transitioning from adolescence to adulthood. I truly do not believe this happens well for those still living with parents. I fear we might be creating a whole new generation of failure to launch children!
I completely disagree with this. The typical college residential experience bears zero resemblance to living in the real world. If you truly meant "live on your own", as in completely alone, I would agree with that.
100% agree. It reminds me of this gem.

Image
stoptothink wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:56 am
Unless the young adult is supporting themselves by working to pay for school/living expenses (which has been called "child abuse" on this board countless times), it is nothing like the "real world".
In most states, the age of majority is 18, so it can't be rightly called "child abuse" unless your the individual is under that age. :wink:
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

SimonJester
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Re: College in fall

Post by SimonJester » Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:33 pm

tibbitts wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:39 pm
SimonJester wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:11 am
A big part of college is learning how to live on your own and transitioning from adolescence to adulthood. I truly do not believe this happens well for those still living with parents. I fear we might be creating a whole new generation of failure to launch children!
I completely disagree with this. The typical college residential experience bears zero resemblance to living in the real world. If you truly meant "live on your own", as in completely alone, I would agree with that.
I never said it was the same as living in the real world. Read what I said, "learning how to live on your own and transitioning from adolescence to adulthood."

Its a learning period, and a transition period, a stepping stone towards independence. But I only speak from my own experiences with my two college sons going through this as we speak.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

cshell2
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Re: College in fall

Post by cshell2 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:47 pm

SimonJester wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:33 pm
tibbitts wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:39 pm
SimonJester wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:11 am
A big part of college is learning how to live on your own and transitioning from adolescence to adulthood. I truly do not believe this happens well for those still living with parents. I fear we might be creating a whole new generation of failure to launch children!
I completely disagree with this. The typical college residential experience bears zero resemblance to living in the real world. If you truly meant "live on your own", as in completely alone, I would agree with that.
I never said it was the same as living in the real world. Read what I said, "learning how to live on your own and transitioning from adolescence to adulthood."

Its a learning period, and a transition period, a stepping stone towards independence. But I only speak from my own experiences with my two college sons going through this as we speak.
I agree. It's definitely a stepping stone and I think a lot would be missed by taking online classes from home. Especially for kids of parents like me that tend to micromanage. :wink:

Regattamom
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Re: College in fall

Post by Regattamom » Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:49 pm

A friend's son is going to Washington State University in the fall. Freshman will be in single units. She says they are required to sign a contract that families will pay for the full year of housing and meals even if the school shuts down the campus.

Has anyone else heard of this happening at other schools?

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Re: College in fall

Post by abuss368 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:12 pm

We have a nephew that is starting in August. There is a lot of uncertainty how this will proceed.
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Re: College in fall

Post by willthrill81 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:16 pm

Regattamom wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:49 pm
A friend's son is going to Washington State University in the fall. Freshman will be in single units. She says they are required to sign a contract that families will pay for the full year of housing and meals even if the school shuts down the campus.

Has anyone else heard of this happening at other schools?
Yes, it's happened at many. It seems a bit draconian to some, but the universities have fixed expenses that must be satisfied. If students and parents want to at least attempt to have the face-to-face interaction, that's seemingly the price that must be paid.

Given the uptick nationwide in cases, it seems inevitable to me that many, perhaps most, of the universities that are currently 'planning' on face-to-face classes will revert back to predominantly or even exclusively online instruction.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

Normchad
Posts: 669
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:20 am

Re: College in fall

Post by Normchad » Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:20 pm

That’s certainly a drag. My kid came home in March, for spring break. She’s been on my couch ever since. Still sending a $1,000 check for the off-campus apartment every month. I think we sent the final one three days ago. But that’s a lot of $1000 checks to write for a place you don’t live anymore, at a school that has locked you out.....

So I suppose this puts the schools on an equal footing with apartments. The advantage for the dorm though isi would have only been paying to end of the school year vice the end of summer.

Regattamom
Posts: 259
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:40 pm

Re: College in fall

Post by Regattamom » Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:22 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:16 pm
Regattamom wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:49 pm
A friend's son is going to Washington State University in the fall. Freshman will be in single units. She says they are required to sign a contract that families will pay for the full year of housing and meals even if the school shuts down the campus.

Has anyone else heard of this happening at other schools?
Yes, it's happened at many. It seems a bit draconian to some, but the universities have fixed expenses that must be satisfied. If students and parents want to at least attempt to have the face-to-face interaction, that's seemingly the price that must be paid.

Given the uptick nationwide in cases, it seems inevitable to me that many, perhaps most, of the universities that are currently 'planning' on face-to-face classes will revert back to predominantly or even exclusively online instruction.
That's a financial risk I would not take. Approximately $24,000 for what will most likely be online learning for most of the year is too expensive for a WSU degree, IMO. If it was an elite school, I might feel differently. I have to think this will take a toll on enrollment.

User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 19222
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:17 pm
Location: USA

Re: College in fall

Post by willthrill81 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:33 pm

Regattamom wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:22 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:16 pm
Regattamom wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:49 pm
A friend's son is going to Washington State University in the fall. Freshman will be in single units. She says they are required to sign a contract that families will pay for the full year of housing and meals even if the school shuts down the campus.

Has anyone else heard of this happening at other schools?
Yes, it's happened at many. It seems a bit draconian to some, but the universities have fixed expenses that must be satisfied. If students and parents want to at least attempt to have the face-to-face interaction, that's seemingly the price that must be paid.

Given the uptick nationwide in cases, it seems inevitable to me that many, perhaps most, of the universities that are currently 'planning' on face-to-face classes will revert back to predominantly or even exclusively online instruction.
That's a financial risk I would not take. Approximately $24,000 for what will most likely be online learning for most of the year is too expensive for a WSU degree, IMO. If it was an elite school, I might feel differently. I have to think this will take a toll on enrollment.
It absolutely will take a toll on enrollments, and universities all know this very well. As I've noted in this thread, virtually everyone in higher ed fully expects classes to go back online by the new year if not prior. This pitch of 'we're planning to resume face-to-face instruction' is little more than a defense mechanism to try to keep students on the hook for the 2020-2021 academic year as long as they can. They know that they'll lose some students if/when they go back online, but they also know that many will just slug it out with online courses. If they announced that they would be online only for the entire academic year, many would choose to sit the year out entirely or go to a far less expensive university or community college.

This is accelerating the problems in higher ed that everyone was anticipating would happen around 2025 with the so-called 'enrollment cliff'. Between now and then, I expect that many private institutions will fold entirely, some public ones will, and many will consolidate. Higher ed will still exist, but it will be smaller out of pure necessity.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

marcopolo
Posts: 3072
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:22 am

Re: College in fall

Post by marcopolo » Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:41 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:33 pm
Regattamom wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:22 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:16 pm
Regattamom wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:49 pm
A friend's son is going to Washington State University in the fall. Freshman will be in single units. She says they are required to sign a contract that families will pay for the full year of housing and meals even if the school shuts down the campus.

Has anyone else heard of this happening at other schools?
Yes, it's happened at many. It seems a bit draconian to some, but the universities have fixed expenses that must be satisfied. If students and parents want to at least attempt to have the face-to-face interaction, that's seemingly the price that must be paid.

Given the uptick nationwide in cases, it seems inevitable to me that many, perhaps most, of the universities that are currently 'planning' on face-to-face classes will revert back to predominantly or even exclusively online instruction.
That's a financial risk I would not take. Approximately $24,000 for what will most likely be online learning for most of the year is too expensive for a WSU degree, IMO. If it was an elite school, I might feel differently. I have to think this will take a toll on enrollment.
It absolutely will take a toll on enrollments, and universities all know this very well. As I've noted in this thread, virtually everyone in higher ed fully expects classes to go back online by the new year if not prior. This pitch of 'we're planning to resume face-to-face instruction' is little more than a defense mechanism to try to keep students on the hook for the 2020-2021 academic year as long as they can. They know that they'll lose some students if/when they go back online, but they also know that many will just slug it out with online courses. If they announced that they would be online only for the entire academic year, many would choose to sit the year out entirely or go to a far less expensive university or community college.

This is accelerating the problems in higher ed that everyone was anticipating would happen around 2025 with the so-called 'enrollment cliff'. Between now and then, I expect that many private institutions will fold entirely, some public ones will, and many will consolidate. Higher ed will still exist, but it will be smaller out of pure necessity.
This seems like a good explanation of what is going on.
A bit cynical of the universities, but I guess it is understandable.

By the way, what is this 2025 enrollment cliff?
This thread is the first time I had heard of that.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

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AerialWombat
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Re: College in fall

Post by AerialWombat » Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:49 pm

Regattamom wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:22 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:16 pm
Regattamom wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:49 pm
A friend's son is going to Washington State University in the fall. Freshman will be in single units. She says they are required to sign a contract that families will pay for the full year of housing and meals even if the school shuts down the campus.

Has anyone else heard of this happening at other schools?
Yes, it's happened at many. It seems a bit draconian to some, but the universities have fixed expenses that must be satisfied. If students and parents want to at least attempt to have the face-to-face interaction, that's seemingly the price that must be paid.

Given the uptick nationwide in cases, it seems inevitable to me that many, perhaps most, of the universities that are currently 'planning' on face-to-face classes will revert back to predominantly or even exclusively online instruction.
That's a financial risk I would not take. Approximately $24,000 for what will most likely be online learning for most of the year is too expensive for a WSU degree, IMO. If it was an elite school, I might feel differently. I have to think this will take a toll on enrollment.
I may be missing something, but I just don’t see how this is even a conversation. I know that many parents and students might be concerned about losing a coveted spot at a flagship school like WSU if they attend elsewhere in the interim, but it just makes zero sense to me to take online classes there.

In these times, I’m encouraging young people to look at CLEP and DSST testing for credit, and online classes from a plethora of fine institutions at lower cost. In WA, this would include Evergreen SC, the three Seattle Colleges, Olympic College, and the state “directional” schools like Eastern and Western Wash U. The quality of online education at these smaller public schools will be just as good, if not better.

User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 19222
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:17 pm
Location: USA

Re: College in fall

Post by willthrill81 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:56 pm

marcopolo wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:41 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:33 pm
Regattamom wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:22 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:16 pm
Regattamom wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:49 pm
A friend's son is going to Washington State University in the fall. Freshman will be in single units. She says they are required to sign a contract that families will pay for the full year of housing and meals even if the school shuts down the campus.

Has anyone else heard of this happening at other schools?
Yes, it's happened at many. It seems a bit draconian to some, but the universities have fixed expenses that must be satisfied. If students and parents want to at least attempt to have the face-to-face interaction, that's seemingly the price that must be paid.

Given the uptick nationwide in cases, it seems inevitable to me that many, perhaps most, of the universities that are currently 'planning' on face-to-face classes will revert back to predominantly or even exclusively online instruction.
That's a financial risk I would not take. Approximately $24,000 for what will most likely be online learning for most of the year is too expensive for a WSU degree, IMO. If it was an elite school, I might feel differently. I have to think this will take a toll on enrollment.
It absolutely will take a toll on enrollments, and universities all know this very well. As I've noted in this thread, virtually everyone in higher ed fully expects classes to go back online by the new year if not prior. This pitch of 'we're planning to resume face-to-face instruction' is little more than a defense mechanism to try to keep students on the hook for the 2020-2021 academic year as long as they can. They know that they'll lose some students if/when they go back online, but they also know that many will just slug it out with online courses. If they announced that they would be online only for the entire academic year, many would choose to sit the year out entirely or go to a far less expensive university or community college.

This is accelerating the problems in higher ed that everyone was anticipating would happen around 2025 with the so-called 'enrollment cliff'. Between now and then, I expect that many private institutions will fold entirely, some public ones will, and many will consolidate. Higher ed will still exist, but it will be smaller out of pure necessity.
This seems like a good explanation of what is going on.
A bit cynical of the universities, but I guess it is understandable.
And this is coming from a university professor (i.e. me)! :shock:
marcopolo wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:41 pm
By the way, what is this 2025 enrollment cliff?
This thread is the first time I had heard of that.
It's a demographic problem. For a long time now, developed nations have had decreasing birth rates among their native populations. America has seen this as well and would have seen its population shrink in recent years were it not from immigration. But back in 2007, at the onset of the GFC, births really went down due to economic hardships. Fast forward 18 years, and this means that the number of incoming freshmen will decline significantly for around five years.

Image
https://eab.com/insights/expert-insight ... our-state/

All of this was known before COVID-19 hit. Many universities were already making plans to 'right-size' for this problem, and COVID-19 is forcing them to implement such plans very quickly. Some have already begun laying off staff, and faculty, especially those in the humanities, where students are increasingly taking such courses either in high-school for university credit or at less expensive community college, will be next.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 19222
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:17 pm
Location: USA

Re: College in fall

Post by willthrill81 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:00 pm

AerialWombat wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:49 pm
Regattamom wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:22 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:16 pm
Regattamom wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:49 pm
A friend's son is going to Washington State University in the fall. Freshman will be in single units. She says they are required to sign a contract that families will pay for the full year of housing and meals even if the school shuts down the campus.

Has anyone else heard of this happening at other schools?
Yes, it's happened at many. It seems a bit draconian to some, but the universities have fixed expenses that must be satisfied. If students and parents want to at least attempt to have the face-to-face interaction, that's seemingly the price that must be paid.

Given the uptick nationwide in cases, it seems inevitable to me that many, perhaps most, of the universities that are currently 'planning' on face-to-face classes will revert back to predominantly or even exclusively online instruction.
That's a financial risk I would not take. Approximately $24,000 for what will most likely be online learning for most of the year is too expensive for a WSU degree, IMO. If it was an elite school, I might feel differently. I have to think this will take a toll on enrollment.
I may be missing something, but I just don’t see how this is even a conversation. I know that many parents and students might be concerned about losing a coveted spot at a flagship school like WSU if they attend elsewhere in the interim, but it just makes zero sense to me to take online classes there.

In these times, I’m encouraging young people to look at CLEP and DSST testing for credit, and online classes from a plethora of fine institutions at lower cost. In WA, this would include Evergreen SC, the three Seattle Colleges, Olympic College, and the state “directional” schools like Eastern and Western Wash U. The quality of online education at these smaller public schools will be just as good, if not better.
That's exactly what folks like Clark Howard have been telling students and parents: don't pay a big premium for an 'elite' university just to take online courses there. Go to a less costly university or community college instead, being sure to only take courses that you know will transfer to the desired university later.

While many here don't like this approach, it was becoming increasingly common with students before COVID-19, which seems likely to accelerate it.

Thankfully, being a business professor, my students are virtually all juniors and seniors, so them taking freshmen and sophomore level courses elsewhere doesn't directly impact me, though it does indirectly due to the internally subsidized nature of universities, especially those in the public sphere. Business colleges tend to be 'stars' or 'cash cows', indirectly helping to fund the 'dogs' (that's a reference to the Boston Consulting Group strategic matrix and their terminology, not mine).
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

marcopolo
Posts: 3072
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:22 am

Re: College in fall

Post by marcopolo » Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:59 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:56 pm
marcopolo wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:41 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:33 pm
Regattamom wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:22 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:16 pm


Yes, it's happened at many. It seems a bit draconian to some, but the universities have fixed expenses that must be satisfied. If students and parents want to at least attempt to have the face-to-face interaction, that's seemingly the price that must be paid.

Given the uptick nationwide in cases, it seems inevitable to me that many, perhaps most, of the universities that are currently 'planning' on face-to-face classes will revert back to predominantly or even exclusively online instruction.
That's a financial risk I would not take. Approximately $24,000 for what will most likely be online learning for most of the year is too expensive for a WSU degree, IMO. If it was an elite school, I might feel differently. I have to think this will take a toll on enrollment.
It absolutely will take a toll on enrollments, and universities all know this very well. As I've noted in this thread, virtually everyone in higher ed fully expects classes to go back online by the new year if not prior. This pitch of 'we're planning to resume face-to-face instruction' is little more than a defense mechanism to try to keep students on the hook for the 2020-2021 academic year as long as they can. They know that they'll lose some students if/when they go back online, but they also know that many will just slug it out with online courses. If they announced that they would be online only for the entire academic year, many would choose to sit the year out entirely or go to a far less expensive university or community college.

This is accelerating the problems in higher ed that everyone was anticipating would happen around 2025 with the so-called 'enrollment cliff'. Between now and then, I expect that many private institutions will fold entirely, some public ones will, and many will consolidate. Higher ed will still exist, but it will be smaller out of pure necessity.
This seems like a good explanation of what is going on.
A bit cynical of the universities, but I guess it is understandable.
And this is coming from a university professor (i.e. me)! :shock:
marcopolo wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:41 pm
By the way, what is this 2025 enrollment cliff?
This thread is the first time I had heard of that.
It's a demographic problem. For a long time now, developed nations have had decreasing birth rates among their native populations. America has seen this as well and would have seen its population shrink in recent years were it not from immigration. But back in 2007, at the onset of the GFC, births really went down due to economic hardships. Fast forward 18 years, and this means that the number of incoming freshmen will decline significantly for around five years.

Image
https://eab.com/insights/expert-insight ... our-state/

All of this was known before COVID-19 hit. Many universities were already making plans to 'right-size' for this problem, and COVID-19 is forcing them to implement such plans very quickly. Some have already begun laying off staff, and faculty, especially those in the humanities, where students are increasingly taking such courses either in high-school for university credit or at less expensive community college, will be next.
Interesting. Thanks for the explanation.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

marcopolo
Posts: 3072
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:22 am

Re: College in fall

Post by marcopolo » Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:03 pm

AerialWombat wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:49 pm
Regattamom wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:22 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:16 pm
Regattamom wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:49 pm
A friend's son is going to Washington State University in the fall. Freshman will be in single units. She says they are required to sign a contract that families will pay for the full year of housing and meals even if the school shuts down the campus.

Has anyone else heard of this happening at other schools?
Yes, it's happened at many. It seems a bit draconian to some, but the universities have fixed expenses that must be satisfied. If students and parents want to at least attempt to have the face-to-face interaction, that's seemingly the price that must be paid.

Given the uptick nationwide in cases, it seems inevitable to me that many, perhaps most, of the universities that are currently 'planning' on face-to-face classes will revert back to predominantly or even exclusively online instruction.
That's a financial risk I would not take. Approximately $24,000 for what will most likely be online learning for most of the year is too expensive for a WSU degree, IMO. If it was an elite school, I might feel differently. I have to think this will take a toll on enrollment.
I may be missing something, but I just don’t see how this is even a conversation. I know that many parents and students might be concerned about losing a coveted spot at a flagship school like WSU if they attend elsewhere in the interim, but it just makes zero sense to me to take online classes there.

In these times, I’m encouraging young people to look at CLEP and DSST testing for credit, and online classes from a plethora of fine institutions at lower cost. In WA, this would include Evergreen SC, the three Seattle Colleges, Olympic College, and the state “directional” schools like Eastern and Western Wash U. The quality of online education at these smaller public schools will be just as good, if not better.
That works first year, and may be some majors.
But, upper level engineering classes, for example, are not likely to transfer from those schools to a state flagship or upper tier private schools. Also, many school have limits on how many credits can be taken at other schools, especially after enrollment.

But, I agree, one should look at such options if they can be fit into your curriculum.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

Regattamom
Posts: 259
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:40 pm

Re: College in fall

Post by Regattamom » Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:21 pm

marcopolo wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:03 pm
AerialWombat wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:49 pm
Regattamom wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:22 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:16 pm
Regattamom wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:49 pm
A friend's son is going to Washington State University in the fall. Freshman will be in single units. She says they are required to sign a contract that families will pay for the full year of housing and meals even if the school shuts down the campus.

Has anyone else heard of this happening at other schools?
Yes, it's happened at many. It seems a bit draconian to some, but the universities have fixed expenses that must be satisfied. If students and parents want to at least attempt to have the face-to-face interaction, that's seemingly the price that must be paid.

Given the uptick nationwide in cases, it seems inevitable to me that many, perhaps most, of the universities that are currently 'planning' on face-to-face classes will revert back to predominantly or even exclusively online instruction.
That's a financial risk I would not take. Approximately $24,000 for what will most likely be online learning for most of the year is too expensive for a WSU degree, IMO. If it was an elite school, I might feel differently. I have to think this will take a toll on enrollment.
I may be missing something, but I just don’t see how this is even a conversation. I know that many parents and students might be concerned about losing a coveted spot at a flagship school like WSU if they attend elsewhere in the interim, but it just makes zero sense to me to take online classes there.

In these times, I’m encouraging young people to look at CLEP and DSST testing for credit, and online classes from a plethora of fine institutions at lower cost. In WA, this would include Evergreen SC, the three Seattle Colleges, Olympic College, and the state “directional” schools like Eastern and Western Wash U. The quality of online education at these smaller public schools will be just as good, if not better.
That works first year, and may be some majors.
But, upper level engineering classes, for example, are not likely to transfer from those schools to a state flagship or upper tier private schools. Also, many school have limits on how many credits can be taken at other schools, especially after enrollment.

But, I agree, one should look at such options if they can be fit into your curriculum.
Upper level students aren’t required to live on campus and pay for housing and meals they won’t receive if campus shuts down.

Another option ArielWombat did not mention are extension college campuses which give even more options.

Random Poster
Posts: 2186
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:17 am

Re: College in fall

Post by Random Poster » Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:24 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:16 pm
Regattamom wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:49 pm
A friend's son is going to Washington State University in the fall. Freshman will be in single units. She says they are required to sign a contract that families will pay for the full year of housing and meals even if the school shuts down the campus.

Has anyone else heard of this happening at other schools?
Yes, it's happened at many. It seems a bit draconian to some, but the universities have fixed expenses that must be satisfied. If students and parents want to at least attempt to have the face-to-face interaction, that's seemingly the price that must be paid.
Or perhaps Universities should spend down some of their endowment to cover these “fixed expenses” and then work towards reducing them permanently.

Expecting students/parents to pay for services not rendered is ridiculous, but is unfortunately in line with how many colleges operate these days.

marcopolo
Posts: 3072
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:22 am

Re: College in fall

Post by marcopolo » Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:37 pm

Regattamom wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:21 pm
marcopolo wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:03 pm
AerialWombat wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:49 pm
Regattamom wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:22 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:16 pm


Yes, it's happened at many. It seems a bit draconian to some, but the universities have fixed expenses that must be satisfied. If students and parents want to at least attempt to have the face-to-face interaction, that's seemingly the price that must be paid.

Given the uptick nationwide in cases, it seems inevitable to me that many, perhaps most, of the universities that are currently 'planning' on face-to-face classes will revert back to predominantly or even exclusively online instruction.
That's a financial risk I would not take. Approximately $24,000 for what will most likely be online learning for most of the year is too expensive for a WSU degree, IMO. If it was an elite school, I might feel differently. I have to think this will take a toll on enrollment.
I may be missing something, but I just don’t see how this is even a conversation. I know that many parents and students might be concerned about losing a coveted spot at a flagship school like WSU if they attend elsewhere in the interim, but it just makes zero sense to me to take online classes there.

In these times, I’m encouraging young people to look at CLEP and DSST testing for credit, and online classes from a plethora of fine institutions at lower cost. In WA, this would include Evergreen SC, the three Seattle Colleges, Olympic College, and the state “directional” schools like Eastern and Western Wash U. The quality of online education at these smaller public schools will be just as good, if not better.
That works first year, and may be some majors.
But, upper level engineering classes, for example, are not likely to transfer from those schools to a state flagship or upper tier private schools. Also, many school have limits on how many credits can be taken at other schools, especially after enrollment.

But, I agree, one should look at such options if they can be fit into your curriculum.
Upper level students aren’t required to live on campus and pay for housing and meals they won’t receive if campus shuts down.

Another option ArielWombat did not mention are extension college campuses which give even more options.
Not sure what that has to do with the suggestion to take CLEP, DSST, or classes at "directional" schools?

But, students most likely will have to pay for off campus housing they are not using as well when schools shut down.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

shess
Posts: 462
Joined: Wed May 17, 2017 12:02 am

Re: College in fall

Post by shess » Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:44 pm

e5116 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:45 am
stoptothink wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:56 am
tibbitts wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:39 pm
SimonJester wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:11 am
A big part of college is learning how to live on your own and transitioning from adolescence to adulthood. I truly do not believe this happens well for those still living with parents. I fear we might be creating a whole new generation of failure to launch children!
I completely disagree with this. The typical college residential experience bears zero resemblance to living in the real world. If you truly meant "live on your own", as in completely alone, I would agree with that.
+1. Unless the young adult is supporting themselves by working to pay for school/living expenses (which has been called "child abuse" on this board countless times), it is nothing like the "real world".
While I agree that living at a college campus isn't the same as the "real world," that doesn't mean it's not without merit. Living at home with parents also isn't the same as the "real world." College experiences definitely serve to broaden social/educational/independence, which often serve people well in preparing them for work on their own. I view it as a stepping stone experience. Frankly, my college experience in juggling intense academics and everything else on my plate, was MUCH MUCH more difficult (and stressful) than my transition to living on my own in the "real world." Of course, everybody's situation is unique. But being on campus in college definitely helped prepare me for my first job and living on my own (financially and otherwise).
Hell, working to support yourself while going to school is also not really representative of the real world. Come to think of it ... I'm pretty sure my "real world" isn't the same as your "real world", and it's certainly not the same as the "real world" I grew up in and entered the workforce into.

The fact of the matter is that the experience people get going to a residential college is changing hugely right now. Whether that experience is the RIGHT experience or not isn't really material - many people believe it to be a worthwhile experience and remote learning from your parent's house is 100% not the same experience. And even if you don't believe the residential college experience is worthwhile, it definitely is a change of phase. After four or five years at college, moving back into your parents' house definitely doesn't feel like progress.

Regattamom
Posts: 259
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:40 pm

Re: College in fall

Post by Regattamom » Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:45 pm

marcopolo wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:37 pm
Regattamom wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:21 pm
marcopolo wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:03 pm
AerialWombat wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:49 pm
Regattamom wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:22 pm


That's a financial risk I would not take. Approximately $24,000 for what will most likely be online learning for most of the year is too expensive for a WSU degree, IMO. If it was an elite school, I might feel differently. I have to think this will take a toll on enrollment.
I may be missing something, but I just don’t see how this is even a conversation. I know that many parents and students might be concerned about losing a coveted spot at a flagship school like WSU if they attend elsewhere in the interim, but it just makes zero sense to me to take online classes there.

In these times, I’m encouraging young people to look at CLEP and DSST testing for credit, and online classes from a plethora of fine institutions at lower cost. In WA, this would include Evergreen SC, the three Seattle Colleges, Olympic College, and the state “directional” schools like Eastern and Western Wash U. The quality of online education at these smaller public schools will be just as good, if not better.
That works first year, and may be some majors.
But, upper level engineering classes, for example, are not likely to transfer from those schools to a state flagship or upper tier private schools. Also, many school have limits on how many credits can be taken at other schools, especially after enrollment.

But, I agree, one should look at such options if they can be fit into your curriculum.
Upper level students aren’t required to live on campus and pay for housing and meals they won’t receive if campus shuts down.

Another option ArielWombat did not mention are extension college campuses which give even more options.
Not sure what that has to do with the suggestion to take CLEP, DSST, or classes at "directional" schools?

But, students most likely will have to pay for off campus housing they are not using as well when schools shut down.
I was making a separate point. My point is that the financial risk is greater for those required to live on campus such as freshman.

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willthrill81
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Re: College in fall

Post by willthrill81 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:15 pm

marcopolo wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:03 pm
That works first year, and may be some majors.
But, upper level engineering classes, for example, are not likely to transfer from those schools to a state flagship or upper tier private schools. Also, many school have limits on how many credits can be taken at other schools, especially after enrollment.
Correct. Generally speaking, it's often difficult and sometimes impossible to transfer junior and senior level courses to a university. Also, many universities will not allow a student to transfer more than 50% of the credits needed to graduate.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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willthrill81
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Re: College in fall

Post by willthrill81 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:17 pm

Random Poster wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:24 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:16 pm
Regattamom wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:49 pm
A friend's son is going to Washington State University in the fall. Freshman will be in single units. She says they are required to sign a contract that families will pay for the full year of housing and meals even if the school shuts down the campus.

Has anyone else heard of this happening at other schools?
Yes, it's happened at many. It seems a bit draconian to some, but the universities have fixed expenses that must be satisfied. If students and parents want to at least attempt to have the face-to-face interaction, that's seemingly the price that must be paid.
Or perhaps Universities should spend down some of their endowment to cover these “fixed expenses” and then work towards reducing them permanently.

Expecting students/parents to pay for services not rendered is ridiculous, but is unfortunately in line with how many colleges operate these days.
My university has been spending down its resources for years while trying to find a way to reduce its expenses. COVID-19 was a major blow.

I agree that it doesn't seem fair. But students and parents have the choice now to not enroll in universities with such policies.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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HomerJ
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Re: College in fall

Post by HomerJ » Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:51 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:00 pm
That's exactly what folks like Clark Howard have been telling students and parents: don't pay a big premium for an 'elite' university just to take online courses there. Go to a less costly university or community college instead, being sure to only take courses that you know will transfer to the desired university later.
What stinks is my son already has 25 hours of AP credit and summer community college credit, and we can only transfer 30 hours total to the school he's attending.

So taking a year off and doing community college won't work for him.
A Goldman Sachs associate provided a variety of detailed explanations, but then offered a caveat, “If I’m being dead-### honest, though, nobody knows what’s really going on.”

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willthrill81
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Re: College in fall

Post by willthrill81 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:37 pm

HomerJ wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:51 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:00 pm
That's exactly what folks like Clark Howard have been telling students and parents: don't pay a big premium for an 'elite' university just to take online courses there. Go to a less costly university or community college instead, being sure to only take courses that you know will transfer to the desired university later.
What stinks is my son already has 25 hours of AP credit and summer community college credit, and we can only transfer 30 hours total to the school he's attending.

So taking a year off and doing community college won't work for him.
A gap year isn't in the cards?
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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Re: College in fall

Post by Vulcan » Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:49 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:37 pm
A gap year isn't in the cards?
There is a Russian phraseologism that perfectly describes taking a gap year under the current circumstances: "waiting for the weather by the sea".
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Re: College in fall

Post by cshell2 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:58 pm

We briefly considered a gap year, but dismissed it. I don't think taking a year off from math and science if you're going the STEM degree route is a good idea. If he took CC classes to fill his time he would have to reapply as a transfer student and would lose his freshman scholarships...and things might be even worse next year if a bunch of students defer, so we're going to just suck it up and make the best of things. My son is still excited about going even if it means taking online classes from his dorm room.

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Re: College in fall

Post by shess » Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:06 am

Vulcan wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:49 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:37 pm
A gap year isn't in the cards?
There is a Russian phraseologism that perfectly describes taking a gap year under the current circumstances: "waiting for the weather by the sea".
Yeah, this is a thing I don't understand. I generally think a gap year is a GREAT idea for a college-bound student, and likewise I think going to work for a year is a reasonable idea, too. But in the present circumstances, are you going to take a year off and bum around Europe sleeping in hostels because coronavirus makes being on campus too nerve-wracking? Or are you going to get a work-from-home internship which is also going to be a hugely sub-standard experience relative to in-person internships (and half or more have been cancelled anyhow)? Or are you going to compete with 30 or 40 million newly under-employed people for a greatly-reduced set of unskilled positions? It really doesn't feel like there are productive alternatives (I have a rising college sophomore, I've been pondering this).

So far of all the people proposing things like gap years, the only one which really impressed me was a student who was thinking about applying to be a contact tracer. That totally works for me, and I think it's actually maybe the kind of thing that a college-bound student might have an advantage at relative to other unemployed people.

I do kind of get the notion of going to community college for a year, simply to dial down the cash burn rate. But it's still hard to make plans with that, and community colleges are also heavily impacted by all of this, and the reduced tax revenues are likely to have immediate impact on them.

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Re: College in fall

Post by stoptothink » Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:54 am

shess wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:06 am
Vulcan wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:49 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:37 pm
A gap year isn't in the cards?
There is a Russian phraseologism that perfectly describes taking a gap year under the current circumstances: "waiting for the weather by the sea".
Yeah, this is a thing I don't understand. I generally think a gap year is a GREAT idea for a college-bound student, and likewise I think going to work for a year is a reasonable idea, too. But in the present circumstances, are you going to take a year off and bum around Europe sleeping in hostels because coronavirus makes being on campus too nerve-wracking? Or are you going to get a work-from-home internship which is also going to be a hugely sub-standard experience relative to in-person internships (and half or more have been cancelled anyhow)? Or are you going to compete with 30 or 40 million newly under-employed people for a greatly-reduced set of unskilled positions? It really doesn't feel like there are productive alternatives (I have a rising college sophomore, I've been pondering this).

So far of all the people proposing things like gap years, the only one which really impressed me was a student who was thinking about applying to be a contact tracer. That totally works for me, and I think it's actually maybe the kind of thing that a college-bound student might have an advantage at relative to other unemployed people.

I do kind of get the notion of going to community college for a year, simply to dial down the cash burn rate. But it's still hard to make plans with that, and community colleges are also heavily impacted by all of this, and the reduced tax revenues are likely to have immediate impact on them.
This. The unfortunate reality is, in this current environment, the chances of a young adult doing anything productive with a gap year are very slim. In most situations, at this time, that's the last thing I would recommend a young college student to do right now.

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Re: College in fall

Post by Bill McNeal » Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:43 am

stoptothink wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:54 am
This. The unfortunate reality is, in this current environment, the chances of a young adult doing anything productive with a gap year are very slim. In most situations, at this time, that's the last thing I would recommend a young college student to do right now.
How about a gap year doing public service, like AmeriCorps or getting international experience working in Africa as part of Peace Corps? Grad schools and future employers view these experiences fondly.

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Re: College in fall

Post by e5116 » Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:56 pm

Bill McNeal wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:43 am
stoptothink wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:54 am
This. The unfortunate reality is, in this current environment, the chances of a young adult doing anything productive with a gap year are very slim. In most situations, at this time, that's the last thing I would recommend a young college student to do right now.
How about a gap year doing public service, like AmeriCorps or getting international experience working in Africa as part of Peace Corps? Grad schools and future employers view these experiences fondly.
Most countries aren't even allowing Americans in right now....Travel is heavily restricted and unpredictable so making plans under the assumption that you'll be okay when the time comes around is definitely rolling the dice....

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