Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

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02nz
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by 02nz » Fri May 22, 2020 8:52 pm

RetiredCSProf wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 8:39 pm
If I were getting two cars (and money were no object), I would get a Mini for me and the Volvo S60 for my son.
Well since you're paying for it, why not get what you want? Mini just came out with a Cooper EV, which has been well-reviewed, except for fairly low range (110 miles).

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RetiredCSProf
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by RetiredCSProf » Sat May 23, 2020 4:44 pm

The dealer has a Mini Cooper EV in the showroom. My son sat it in and complained that the driver seat adjustment is manual. I don't know if there's an option for an electric seat. The 110-mile range would be a potential problem if it's our only car. A newer Cooper EV is available in Europe (with longer range) but not yet available in US.

The Mini they showed us is a FWD (also comes in AWD). We are currently driving BMW 330e with RWD. I'm not a "car person," but I've noticed that the RWD drive gives better maneuverability than did my 20-year old FWD Lexus ES. (We are in LA and don't drive to snow.)

The residual on my BMW 2017 330e is $34.5K (plus taxes). At best, the book value of my car is $29K (low mileage, leather seats, LED headlights, sunroof, nav, parking assist, and all the safety features). A newer version (2021) of the 330e is due out at the end of the year, and will have a larger battery with double the EV range. While it is tempting to take a lease-buyout (I like the car well enough and I'm used to it), I am finding it difficult to justify the cost of owning it, plus it's likely to be difficult to sell even within a year of two from now.

One really annoying thing about the PHEV is that it "sighs" when it runs out of electric and shifts to ICE -- after humming along quietly on surface streets, it suddenly sounds and feels like it turned into a Harley-Davidson motorcycle.

anoop
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by anoop » Sat May 23, 2020 5:07 pm

Glockenspiel wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:42 am
samta09 wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:53 am
jabberwockOG wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:41 am
I personally would not own a purely electric car at this time, particularly as my only car, because I want a car that I can drive up to 700-800 miles in any direction in a 12-16 hr day if I need it do so.
You can, in a Tesla.
How frequently do you drive 700-800 miles in one day? Twice a year? In that case, it makes more sense to rent a vehicle, put the miles on the rental, and save your everyday car from the miles.
Rental cars are dirty and rattly. Maybe COVID-19 will change the dirty part, but I really doubt it. I just rented one a few days ago because my car needed some work and other than sanitizing certain surfaces, the rest of the car was pretty filthy (footwells, trunk, cupholders, misc storage areas). I would rather spend time at a charging station taking a break and enjoying the trip in my own car than renting a car and not being able to enjoy it.

02nz
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by 02nz » Sat May 23, 2020 5:25 pm

RetiredCSProf wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 4:44 pm
The dealer has a Mini Cooper EV in the showroom. My son sat it in and complained that the driver seat adjustment is manual. I don't know if there's an option for an electric seat. The 110-mile range would be a potential problem if it's our only car. A newer Cooper EV is available in Europe (with longer range) but not yet available in US.
There's no "newer" model in Europe - the Cooper Electric just came out worldwide. The range is the same everywhere, there's only one battery capacity. In Europe, published range numbers are on the (extremely optimistic) WLTP cycle, much higher than the (more realistic) EPA cycle.

It seems like you eliminated the Bolt mainly because of the lack of a power seat - it looks like the 2021 model will fix this: https://electrek.co/2020/03/04/2021-che ... -redesign/

JDofAZ
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by JDofAZ » Sat May 23, 2020 5:31 pm

I have an Ioniq PHEV that I'm happy with ,the EV range is only about 29 miles but most days I don't run the ICE at all. I've gone 5 months between fill ups. It is comforting not to have to worry about range anxiety but I hope to go full EV next time. I like to say PHEV is a gateway drug to full EV.

If you need long trips I think Tesla is still the best option in most areas. Outside of the tesla world there are fewer high speed chargers and competing standards (CHAdeMO & CCS), many high speed chargers support both but not always.

I assume you can charge from home, otherwise it probably isn't worth it.

mervinj7
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by mervinj7 » Sat May 23, 2020 5:47 pm

RustyShackleford wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:09 pm


As a bonus, I was able (I am a EE) to rig it up so I can connect a small inverter and patch that into the home electrical panel during power outages (kinda like a generator, with the usual caveats about interlock so as not to energize dead power lines and endangering linepersons). It can support some key essential loads for 2-3 days.
Very cool. We also have a Leaf and love it. How did you set up the car as a backup energy source? Any special equipment needed?

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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by hicabob » Sat May 23, 2020 6:13 pm

softwaregeek wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:57 pm
I'm partial to electric vehicles. But the technology is advancing so fast that I hesitate to buy one.

Were I in the market, I would seriously think about leasing one, although I've never been pro-leasing with gasoline fueled cars.

BMW has some very nice i3 models with a tiny gas "range extender" that are quite reasonable used. They depreciate rapidly, but they look like a good used value to me.
The I3 has a little wimpy 2 cylinder motor which runs a generator. The big complaint is you slow down to 45mph when running on the motor up a small hill when the battery is depleted. They certainly do have impressively fast depreciation though!

anoop
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by anoop » Sat May 23, 2020 6:18 pm

hicabob wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 6:13 pm
softwaregeek wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:57 pm
I'm partial to electric vehicles. But the technology is advancing so fast that I hesitate to buy one.

Were I in the market, I would seriously think about leasing one, although I've never been pro-leasing with gasoline fueled cars.

BMW has some very nice i3 models with a tiny gas "range extender" that are quite reasonable used. They depreciate rapidly, but they look like a good used value to me.
The I3 has a little wimpy 2 cylinder motor which runs a generator. The big complaint is you slow down to 45mph when running on the motor up a small hill when the battery is depleted. They certainly do have impressively fast depreciation though!
They went really cheap when new.
https://www.bmwblog.com/2018/05/21/can- ... per-month/

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RustyShackleford
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by RustyShackleford » Mon May 25, 2020 1:42 pm

mervinj7 wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 5:47 pm
RustyShackleford wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:09 pm
As a bonus, I was able (I am a EE) to rig it up so I can connect a small inverter and patch that into the home electrical panel during power outages (kinda like a generator, with the usual caveats about interlock so as not to energize dead power lines and endangering linepersons). It can support some key essential loads for 2-3 days.
Very cool. We also have a Leaf and love it. How did you set up the car as a backup energy source? Any special equipment needed?
Well, you need an inverter of course; I got a 1000watt Xantrex pure sine wave. Then fab'd a new battery hold-down clamp with a mondo connector for the 12vdc. And a cord to connect the inverter into your load center somehow (with the usual caveats about not backfeeding the grid and endangering line workers); or simply extension cords to critical loads such as your fridge.

This very long thread at the Leaf forum tells about it: https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=13097. After initial posts, you might consider skipping to page 20 or so. This is probably not a good project if you are not "handy" and have some knowledge of electricity.

MathWizard
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by MathWizard » Mon May 25, 2020 2:38 pm

I like my Toyota Avalon Limited Hybrid.

Good in town fuel efficiency, and I don't have to worry about plugging it in.

For a plug-in vehicle I would need to install at least a 220V charging station . I considered a Tesla,but it was too expensive with all the options I wanted, and I would still need to charge multiple times on long trips.

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RetiredCSProf
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by RetiredCSProf » Mon May 25, 2020 5:15 pm

Math wizard: The Toyota Avalon hybrid sounds nice, but with a length of 195.9 inches, it won't easily fit into my garage, unless I leave open the garage door. My old Lexus, at 190 inches long, was a challenge -- I often had to get back into the car after parking into the garage in order to edge it forward an inch to clear the garage door.

o2nz: I thought that Europe had a different model of the Mini EV since they were quoting a longer driving range -- but you're correct, it's the same car in Europe

I don't know if Tesla will allow showing cars now that showrooms have opened up in CA. It would make more sense if I could easily add a 240v outlet in the garage. It would be expensive and clunky to add it, and I would need a permit from the City, which the electrician says they may not approve.

02nz
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by 02nz » Mon May 25, 2020 5:21 pm

RetiredCSProf wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 5:15 pm
It would make more sense if I could easily add a 240v outlet in the garage. It would be expensive and clunky to add it, and I would need a permit from the City, which the electrician says they may not approve.
There are often incentives available from the power company that will cover part of the cost.

softwaregeek
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by softwaregeek » Mon May 25, 2020 7:16 pm

It was about $400 extra to do it as a SolarEdge combo Solar Inverter/Car Charger when I did my roof.

mervinj7
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by mervinj7 » Tue May 26, 2020 10:29 am

RustyShackleford wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 1:42 pm
mervinj7 wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 5:47 pm
RustyShackleford wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:09 pm
As a bonus, I was able (I am a EE) to rig it up so I can connect a small inverter and patch that into the home electrical panel during power outages (kinda like a generator, with the usual caveats about interlock so as not to energize dead power lines and endangering linepersons). It can support some key essential loads for 2-3 days.
Very cool. We also have a Leaf and love it. How did you set up the car as a backup energy source? Any special equipment needed?
Well, you need an inverter of course; I got a 1000watt Xantrex pure sine wave. Then fab'd a new battery hold-down clamp with a mondo connector for the 12vdc. And a cord to connect the inverter into your load center somehow (with the usual caveats about not backfeeding the grid and endangering line workers); or simply extension cords to critical loads such as your fridge.

This very long thread at the Leaf forum tells about it: https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=13097. After initial posts, you might consider skipping to page 20 or so. This is probably not a good project if you are not "handy" and have some knowledge of electricity.
Thanks. I think I'll wait for an officially supported solution to come out in the US. The $4K price tag is still too high but hopefully that will come down after the early adopters weed out the bugs.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... in-the-u-s

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4nursebee
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by 4nursebee » Tue May 26, 2020 10:40 am

Did I read you only drove 5K miles last year? You do not need more than current power in garage for the tesla then. Most of the time that is all we charge with for the 14 mile round trip to work. 10 hour charge is 30 miles range or so. Going to electric charge? It would help to learn your electric rate plans and how they impact things. Superchargers can do the rest if needed.

I bet tesla can get you in a car to test ride, especially the 3. Mine even had Ys to try...a roomier car.
Can even buy used?
Inventory search: https://www.tesla.com/inventory/used/ms
Pale Blue Dot

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RetiredCSProf
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by RetiredCSProf » Tue May 26, 2020 8:22 pm

4nursebee: I scheduled an appointment for my son and I to test drive (borrow) a TESLA Model 3 this week. Test drive is limited to 30 minutes. Tesla owners seem to be almost cult-like in their devotion to the brand; we'll see how it goes.

I used to drive 8-10K miles a year. That dropped after I retired and after some life changes. Things may change again when my son finishes college in a year.

chemocean
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by chemocean » Tue May 26, 2020 8:26 pm

Just got an email from
customerservice@burston.com

for 50% off of the last of 2019 Chevy Volts that were discontinued in 2020.

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Picasso
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by Picasso » Tue May 26, 2020 8:27 pm

shunkman wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:55 am
Trism wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:47 pm
mhalley wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:41 pm
Why not just buy the beemer you are leasing?
BMW residuals are inflated to keep the lease payments low.

It's hard to imagine a scenario where buying a BMW at lease end makes financial sense.

It would be wiser to buy a different, similar car for market value instead.
BMW = Bring Money Withya
I thought it was: Big Money Waste :D

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RetiredCSProf
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by RetiredCSProf » Thu May 28, 2020 1:29 pm

Tesla: our test drive is scheduled for today; in the meantime, they called to say that there is a price cut. I read that this is partially to offset the loss of clean-air tax incentives. Or, it's intended to make purchase more competitive with auto manufacturers who are reducing their APR on financing. I read that Tesla financing (5.79% APR on lease) is higher than others because Tesla goes thru 3rd-party lenders.

Volvo: I am confused about the tax incentives. Do they "run out" based on the manufacturer? Volvo is showing that purchase of their SC60 qualifies for a Fed Tax credit of $5419 -- how would I check if this is still valid for 2020? Volvo is offering 0% APR on financing a loan. Volvo PHEV has a 11.6kWh battery pack, almost doubles the electric driving range on our BMW.

Safety: In reviewing safety ratings, both Tesla and Volvo have top scores, but the Mini not so much.

Cost of Ownership: I called my auto insurance carrier to get quotes on premiums -- replacing the currently-leased BMW with Tesla would nearly *double* my current premium; Mini would reduce it by about 25%; Volvo would be slight increase.

Cost of electricity is the equivalent of $2.50 per gallon (assuming 33 mpg on ICE), whether charging at home or at a Tesla supercharging station ($0.26 per kWh at supercharge station; 29 kWh per 100 miles on Tesla).

emoore
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by emoore » Thu May 28, 2020 1:56 pm

RetiredCSProf wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 1:29 pm
Tesla: our test drive is scheduled for today; in the meantime, they called to say that there is a price cut. I read that this is partially to offset the loss of clean-air tax incentives. Or, it's intended to make purchase more competitive with auto manufacturers who are reducing their APR on financing. I read that Tesla financing (5.79% APR on lease) is higher than others because Tesla goes thru 3rd-party lenders.

Volvo: I am confused about the tax incentives. Do they "run out" based on the manufacturer? Volvo is showing that purchase of their SC60 qualifies for a Fed Tax credit of $5419 -- how would I check if this is still valid for 2020? Volvo is offering 0% APR on financing a loan. Volvo PHEV has a 11.6kWh battery pack, almost doubles the electric driving range on our BMW.

Safety: In reviewing safety ratings, both Tesla and Volvo have top scores, but the Mini not so much.

Cost of Ownership: I called my auto insurance carrier to get quotes on premiums -- replacing the currently-leased BMW with Tesla would nearly *double* my current premium; Mini would reduce it by about 25%; Volvo would be slight increase.

Cost of electricity is the equivalent of $2.50 per gallon (assuming 33 mpg on ICE), whether charging at home or at a Tesla supercharging station ($0.26 per kWh at supercharge station; 29 kWh per 100 miles on Tesla).
Tax incentive are per manufacturer. The first 200,000 EV (and maybe PHEV depending on battery size). That's why Tesla and GM don't have a tax incentive anymore.

Jack FFR1846
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Thu May 28, 2020 2:13 pm

RetiredCSProf wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 1:29 pm
Tesla: our test drive is scheduled for today; in the meantime, they called to say that there is a price cut. I read that this is partially to offset the loss of clean-air tax incentives. Or, it's intended to make purchase more competitive with auto manufacturers who are reducing their APR on financing. I read that Tesla financing (5.79% APR on lease) is higher than others because Tesla goes thru 3rd-party lenders.

Volvo: I am confused about the tax incentives. Do they "run out" based on the manufacturer? Volvo is showing that purchase of their SC60 qualifies for a Fed Tax credit of $5419 -- how would I check if this is still valid for 2020? Volvo is offering 0% APR on financing a loan. Volvo PHEV has a 11.6kWh battery pack, almost doubles the electric driving range on our BMW.

Safety: In reviewing safety ratings, both Tesla and Volvo have top scores, but the Mini not so much.

Cost of Ownership: I called my auto insurance carrier to get quotes on premiums -- replacing the currently-leased BMW with Tesla would nearly *double* my current premium; Mini would reduce it by about 25%; Volvo would be slight increase.

Cost of electricity is the equivalent of $2.50 per gallon (assuming 33 mpg on ICE), whether charging at home or at a Tesla supercharging station ($0.26 per kWh at supercharge station; 29 kWh per 100 miles on Tesla).
Boy, you're moving closer to a Subaru Crosstrek every day. An ICE variant will hit 33 mpg with the CVT (lower numerical gearing). We get about 30 with our manual 19 Crosstrek. With our local electric at 20 cents per kWHr, it's cheaper to charge at home than at a supercharger, but I ran the numbers.
Tesla at home at 20 cents/kWHr = $5.80/100 miles
A Crosstrek CVT at 33 mpg and $1.70/g (what I pay right now) is $5.15/100 miles
Tesla at a supercharger at 29 cents per kWHr is $8.41/100 miles.

As mentioned, the Crosstrek "hybrid" really uses the electric as a boost in power, not primarily for lots of mpg savings. Think of it like it's sister cars that use relatively small batteries (about the size of a spare tire compartment) like the old Honda CR-Z (a favorite of mine and the only hybrid with a manual transmission) or the McLaren P1 or Ferrari La Ferrari or Porsche 918 Spider. Out of these, the Crosstrek would be the most likely one to laugh at the bump at the beginning of your driveway, with more clearance than a lot of pickups and small front and rear overhangs. The PHEV version only was offered in the ultra luxury (for Subaru) trim levels and to me, it was very expensive (more than $10k more than my Crosstrek Premium 6MT).

And of course, since I'm in the cult, you could buy a Jeep Wrangler which could not only drive over that hump, it could probably drive over the Tesla Model 3 hopelessly stuck on that hump.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid

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RetiredCSProf
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by RetiredCSProf » Thu May 28, 2020 8:35 pm

Feedback from our Tesla test drive.

No showroom, so we were meeting in an underground parking garage. I was a little lost in the garage, looking for a "fleet" of cars. There were maybe four Teslas parked there. I didn't like the black interior on the Model 3 LR that we tried (too dark to find anything).

My son drove it; I tried the driver's seat, but didn't drive. With more effort, I could likely get comfortable in the seat, but I felt pressured with being limited to a 30-minute test drive.

I watched all the introductory videos before going (no salesman would be in the car with us), so we were able to maneuver through the not-so-obvious tech stuff, such as adjusting mirrors, adjusting steering wheel position, opening the glove compartment, and "popping" the trunks, all via the touch-display screen.

When we got back into our BMW, my son said that our car felt "old." He meant "dated," because our door handles open manually and you can't play video games on the display screen in the BMW. Ironically, the salesman had just bragged to me (over the phone), that [Elon Musk claims] a Tesla can be driven a million miles -- that would be an old car.

Speaking of trunks ... I cannot easily close the back trunk on the Tesla 3. That is, it opens up more like a lift gate; I had to reach up on my tip-toes to close it. There's no power trunk close. I know there's a frunk (front trunk). I didn't look to see if I can fit six bags of groceries into the frunk, doubt it.

When I first called Tesla, a month ago, they said the wait list was 6-10 weeks. Now they say that if I put down a deposit, I can have a car in four weeks.

02nz
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by 02nz » Thu May 28, 2020 10:17 pm

RetiredCSProf wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 1:29 pm
Cost of electricity is the equivalent of $2.50 per gallon (assuming 33 mpg on ICE), whether charging at home or at a Tesla supercharging station ($0.26 per kWh at supercharge station; 29 kWh per 100 miles on Tesla).
This varies a lot depending on where you live, but check to see if your utility offers "time of use" (TOU) rates, as mine (in SoCal) does. Because I have an EV I qualify for TOU rates that are just $0.14/KWhr around the clock except for 5 hours in the late afternoon/evening. Most EVs will allow you to delay charging - plug in when you get home but it won't start charging until a set time, e.g., when the electricity is cheaper. This rate makes charging an EV significantly cheaper than fueling an ICE car, even at current (much lower than normal) gas prices.

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RetiredCSProf
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by RetiredCSProf » Sat May 30, 2020 2:23 pm

Jack: Report on Subaru Crosstrek PHEV
I think I need to re-title my subject "cars for short people." The AF recently dropped their height requirement that their pilots be at least 5'4" (why I didn't become an astronaut), but the car manufacturers have not yet gotten the message.

I looked at the Subaru Crosstrek PHEV today. Seat can work for me, but the manual lift gate is a deal breaker. I would need to keep a step stool in the backseat of the car to make it functional for grocery shopping. No version of the Crosstrek 2020 has a power lift gate.

o2nz: Time of Use vs Tiered electrical at residence
I have not switched to "time of use" as it would be more expensive for me with my current electrical usage. My daily kWh usage varies between 23 kWh and 13 kWh. Would be something to consider if I choose an EV or if we increase our mileage on a PHEV.

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