Trip Cancelled-No Trip Insurance

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N10sive
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Trip Cancelled-No Trip Insurance

Post by N10sive » Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:03 pm

Hello,

I had a trip planned in April and it was cancelled this week by the outfit. This kind of trip you pay in full a year ahead. We are currently waiting on the outcome of the outfit whether a refund or credit will be given. We have a feeling that we won't get a full refund and we don't think even a full credit for next year.

The contract states if they cancel we are due a full refund and only mention force majuere when it comes to traveling. We didn't purchase Trip insurance and it wouldn't cover us in this case anyways(no pandemic coverage on most insurance unless you yourself need to be quarantined).

My group is being fairly amicable in that we all feel that we don't need to get the full refund back especially if its used to pay the salaries of the employees and to just keep them afloat for next year. The outfit mentions "fixed costs" and no refunds in a recent engagement. But clearly they have cancelled. We are in a wait and see situation for their response.

Do bogleheads think in this situation we are due a full refund? In the unique situation we find ourselves in, is this cancellation a "normal" cancellation or because of the factors of self-quarantine, shelter in place etc it falls under different rules?

Thanks,
N10sive

livesoft
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Re: Trip Cancelled-No Trip Insurance

Post by livesoft » Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:08 pm

So far, my spouse has received full refunds without even asking. You will probably get a full refund or credit for a future trip. At least that's what I think. I have also received full refunds for a few reservations that I had paid for.
Last edited by livesoft on Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Silk McCue
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Re: Trip Cancelled-No Trip Insurance

Post by Silk McCue » Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:09 pm

If the provider cancelled the trip they have no right to your money and owe you a refund as they did not deliver what was promised.

Cheers

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Rainier
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Re: Trip Cancelled-No Trip Insurance

Post by Rainier » Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:44 pm

Silk McCue wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:09 pm
If the provider cancelled the trip they have no right to your money and owe you a refund as they did not deliver what was promised.

Cheers
Not if they're bankrupt and don't have the money. At that point you're just a creditor and will likely get nothing.

Topic Author
N10sive
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Re: Trip Cancelled-No Trip Insurance

Post by N10sive » Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:36 pm

Rainier wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:44 pm
[quote="Silk McCue" post_id=5141409 time=<a href="tel:1585422561">1585422561</a> user_id=107288]
If the provider cancelled the trip they have no right to your money and owe you a refund as they did not deliver what was promised.

Cheers
Not if they're bankrupt and don't have the money. At that point you're just a creditor and will likely get nothing.
[/quote]

That’s actually a good point and something that could be a possibility, waiting to say anything to us while they are sending forms for bankruptcy. While I don’t think that is the case it could be as I don’t know their financial and they’ve taken a big hit during this time. They mostly make their money in the winter season.

madbrain
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Re: Trip Cancelled-No Trip Insurance

Post by madbrain » Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:38 pm

Rainier wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:44 pm
Silk McCue wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:09 pm
If the provider cancelled the trip they have no right to your money and owe you a refund as they did not deliver what was promised.

Cheers
Not if they're bankrupt and don't have the money. At that point you're just a creditor and will likely get nothing.
Indeed. I bought a refundable airline ticket last year. I asked for a refund. The airline dragged their feet. Then they went bankrupt. I never saw the refund. $700 lesson.

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whodidntante
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Re: Trip Cancelled-No Trip Insurance

Post by whodidntante » Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:46 pm

Hopefully it wasn't a lot of money you lost.

vipertom1970
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Re: Trip Cancelled-No Trip Insurance

Post by vipertom1970 » Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:51 pm

I am having a hard time getting my refund back for hotel and flight for Mexico trip second week of April.

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Cyclesafe
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Re: Trip Cancelled-No Trip Insurance

Post by Cyclesafe » Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:02 am

Our provider was maintaining that "their local people" saw all "amenities" (like restaurants, markets, and hospitals) operating normally up to March 11, when the hammer fell in Italy. We had been pushing for several weeks that it was impossible for them to perform and that specifically we were not cancelling. We were even learning Italian!

The lies we were told! The patronizing! "Not to worry, you are a full 50 miles and a mountain range from the hot zone!" They conveniently forgot about cars....

Anyway, we cajoled a partial refund and penalty-free postponement until Fall 2021. We continue to push for the remainder, but we know that bankruptcy and a complete loss are probable.

Its too late now, but nevertheless if I were acting now I wouldn't take "no" for an answer. The more creative you are the better chance you'll have to distinguish your worthiness for a refund versus others'. The problem now is that the providers now see your money as their money. Theft, pure and simple. I, for one, will never front money for a vacation ever again.
"Plans are useless; planning is indispensable.” (Dwight Eisenhower) | "Man plans, God laughs" (Yiddish proverb)

dpm321
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Re: Trip Cancelled-No Trip Insurance

Post by dpm321 » Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:34 am

N10sive wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:03 pm

...and only mention force majuere when it comes to traveling.

Thanks,
N10sive
Not sure exactly what you mean here, but the current situation certainly fits the definition of force majuere. I think the best you can hope for is a future credit. The company probably spent your money awhile ago.

delamer
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Re: Trip Cancelled-No Trip Insurance

Post by delamer » Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:18 am

Assuming you paid for the trip with a credit card, file a complaint with your credit card company as soon as possible.

You have nothing to lose, and it may get your refund request to the top of the queue.

TravelGeek
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Re: Trip Cancelled-No Trip Insurance

Post by TravelGeek » Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:37 am

Cyclesafe wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:02 am
I, for one, will never front money for a vacation ever again.
So no more airline travel at all? I am not aware of an airline that doesn’t collect the fare at the time of booking. People Express (who collected fares aboard in cash) is long gone. ;)

For any travel expenses that were not reimbursed even though the purchased product/service was cancelled by the travel company I would file a credit card charge back.

I personally didn’t lose any money on airline tickets or other travel yet. Tickets were either refunded without fees (Delta) or converted to wallet credit for a non-refundable (Alaska Basic economy!) ticket I chose not to fly. Hopefully I will be able to use the credit for another trip by the end of the year before it expires. Even if that were not to happen, I have “lost” a lot more in the market... and many others who have lost their jobs or companies are in a much worse situation.

What we are seeing is hopefully a very unique and once-in-a-lifetime situation. I am not sure that it warrants a radical personal policy change such as “no more prepaid travel”. It would make a lot of travel I hope to eventually take impossible.

Topic Author
N10sive
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Re: Trip Cancelled-No Trip Insurance

Post by N10sive » Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:51 pm

dpm321 wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:34 am
N10sive wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:03 pm

...and only mention force majuere when it comes to traveling.

Thanks,
N10sive
Not sure exactly what you mean here, but the current situation certainly fits the definition of force majuere. I think the best you can hope for is a future credit. The company probably spent your money awhile ago.
It was only explained as “if you cannot arrive for your pickup on time due to weather, airline delay etc or force majuere.....”. Meaning it only related to travel not their cancellation of the trip. We were by all means going to try to make it but then they cancelled.

Can you file a credit card dispute, it’s almost been a year.....

delamer
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Re: Trip Cancelled-No Trip Insurance

Post by delamer » Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:00 pm

N10sive wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:51 pm
dpm321 wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:34 am
N10sive wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:03 pm

...and only mention force majuere when it comes to traveling.

Thanks,
N10sive
Not sure exactly what you mean here, but the current situation certainly fits the definition of force majuere. I think the best you can hope for is a future credit. The company probably spent your money awhile ago.
It was only explained as “if you cannot arrive for your pickup on time due to weather, airline delay etc or force majuere.....”. Meaning it only related to travel not their cancellation of the trip. We were by all means going to try to make it but then they cancelled.

Can you file a credit card dispute, it’s almost been a year.....
Only one way to find out...

Shallowpockets
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Re: Trip Cancelled-No Trip Insurance

Post by Shallowpockets » Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:39 pm

N10sive wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:36 pm
Rainier wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:44 pm
[quote="Silk McCue" post_id=5141409 time=<a href="tel:1585422561">1585422561</a> user_id=107288]
If the provider cancelled the trip they have no right to your money and owe you a refund as they did not deliver what was promised.

Cheers
Not if they're bankrupt and don't have the money. At that point you're just a creditor and will likely get nothing.
That’s actually a good point and something that could be a possibility, waiting to say anything to us while they are sending forms for bankruptcy. While I don’t think that is the case it could be as I don’t know their financial and they’ve taken a big hit during this time. They mostly make their money in the winter season.
[/quote]

Well, I hope they are not bankrupt yet. Therefore they should refund your money now since they cancelled it now, not later when they are maybe bankrupt.

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JonnyDVM
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Re: Trip Cancelled-No Trip Insurance

Post by JonnyDVM » Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:54 pm

Silk McCue wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:09 pm
If the provider cancelled the trip they have no right to your money and owe you a refund as they did not deliver what was promised.

Cheers
They owe you a full refund. Collecting money for a service and not providing that service at its basic level is fraud. You didn’t cancel, they did. They should be insured against such situations. If they are not, that is not your fault.
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seawolf21
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Re: Trip Cancelled-No Trip Insurance

Post by seawolf21 » Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:19 pm

Rainier wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:44 pm
Silk McCue wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:09 pm
If the provider cancelled the trip they have no right to your money and owe you a refund as they did not deliver what was promised.

Cheers
Not if they're bankrupt and don't have the money. At that point you're just a creditor and will likely get nothing.
If this was paid by credit card, the card member is not going to be a creditor a bankruptcy proceeding. The bank where the merchant’s credit card account is held (Acquiring bank) will becomes liable for valid chargebacks if merchant is insolvent. That bank becomes a creditor in a bankruptcy proceeding not the card member.
N10sive wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:51 pm
dpm321 wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:34 am
N10sive wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:03 pm

...and only mention force majuere when it comes to traveling.

Thanks,
N10sive
Not sure exactly what you mean here, but the current situation certainly fits the definition of force majuere. I think the best you can hope for is a future credit. The company probably spent your money awhile ago.
It was only explained as “if you cannot arrive for your pickup on time due to weather, airline delay etc or force majuere.....”. Meaning it only related to travel not their cancellation of the trip. We were by all means going to try to make it but then they cancelled.

Can you file a credit card dispute, it’s almost been a year.....
Under Visa and MasterCard rules, cardmember have 120 days from the expected service/merchandise delivery date to file a chargeback for a “merchandise/services not delivered” dispute provided the original card transaction is not more than 540 days old from dispute submission date.

I don’t believe AMEX has a time limit. Don’t know about Discover. If your card issuer don’t know about this rule they need to escalate internally.

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ResearchMed
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Re: Trip Cancelled-No Trip Insurance

Post by ResearchMed » Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:31 pm

seawolf21 wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:19 pm
Rainier wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:44 pm
Silk McCue wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:09 pm
If the provider cancelled the trip they have no right to your money and owe you a refund as they did not deliver what was promised.

Cheers
Not if they're bankrupt and don't have the money. At that point you're just a creditor and will likely get nothing.
If this was paid by credit card, the card member is not going to be a creditor a bankruptcy proceeding. The bank where the merchant’s credit card account is held (Acquiring bank) will becomes liable for valid chargebacks if merchant is insolvent. That bank becomes a creditor in a bankruptcy proceeding not the card member.
N10sive wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:51 pm
dpm321 wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:34 am
N10sive wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:03 pm

...and only mention force majuere when it comes to traveling.

Thanks,
N10sive
Not sure exactly what you mean here, but the current situation certainly fits the definition of force majuere. I think the best you can hope for is a future credit. The company probably spent your money awhile ago.
It was only explained as “if you cannot arrive for your pickup on time due to weather, airline delay etc or force majuere.....”. Meaning it only related to travel not their cancellation of the trip. We were by all means going to try to make it but then they cancelled.

Can you file a credit card dispute, it’s almost been a year.....
Under Visa and MasterCard rules, cardmember have 120 days from the expected service/merchandise delivery date to file a chargeback for a “merchandise/services not delivered” dispute provided the original card transaction is not more than 540 days old from dispute submission date.

I don’t believe AMEX has a time limit. Don’t know about Discover. If your card issuer don’t know about this rule they need to escalate internally.
I did not know about this almost "lack of time limit".
We typically use Amex for anything remotely sketchy, although in the past, cruises weren't in that category.

But for some reason, I had thought there was a deadline, at least for completed transactions (goods/services received), and that was more like 60 (or 90?) days.
Why would the "beyond expected date" deadline be so much later?

Thanks.
And yes, we'll double check :wink:

RM
This signature is a placebo. You are in the control group.

seawolf21
Posts: 605
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Re: Trip Cancelled-No Trip Insurance

Post by seawolf21 » Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:39 pm

ResearchMed wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:31 pm
seawolf21 wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:19 pm
Rainier wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:44 pm
Silk McCue wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:09 pm
If the provider cancelled the trip they have no right to your money and owe you a refund as they did not deliver what was promised.

Cheers
Not if they're bankrupt and don't have the money. At that point you're just a creditor and will likely get nothing.
If this was paid by credit card, the card member is not going to be a creditor a bankruptcy proceeding. The bank where the merchant’s credit card account is held (Acquiring bank) will becomes liable for valid chargebacks if merchant is insolvent. That bank becomes a creditor in a bankruptcy proceeding not the card member.
N10sive wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:51 pm
dpm321 wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:34 am
N10sive wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:03 pm

...and only mention force majuere when it comes to traveling.

Thanks,
N10sive
Not sure exactly what you mean here, but the current situation certainly fits the definition of force majuere. I think the best you can hope for is a future credit. The company probably spent your money awhile ago.
It was only explained as “if you cannot arrive for your pickup on time due to weather, airline delay etc or force majuere.....”. Meaning it only related to travel not their cancellation of the trip. We were by all means going to try to make it but then they cancelled.

Can you file a credit card dispute, it’s almost been a year.....
Under Visa and MasterCard rules, cardmember have 120 days from the expected service/merchandise delivery date to file a chargeback for a “merchandise/services not delivered” dispute provided the original card transaction is not more than 540 days old from dispute submission date.

I don’t believe AMEX has a time limit. Don’t know about Discover. If your card issuer don’t know about this rule they need to escalate internally.
I did not know about this almost "lack of time limit".
We typically use Amex for anything remotely sketchy, although in the past, cruises weren't in that category.

But for some reason, I had thought there was a deadline, at least for completed transactions (goods/services received), and that was more like 60 (or 90?) days.
Why would the "beyond expected date" deadline be so much later?

Thanks.
And yes, we'll double check :wink:

RM
Because there are many prepaid transactions especially with travel.

The 60 day language you see on credit cards are required to be printed due to federal regulations and are more focused on billing errors.

If using a visa google “VISA core rules.” There should be a PDF hosted on VISA website. For MasterCard, google “MasterCard chargeback guide”. Be sure to select the pdf hosted on MasterCard website.

Topic Author
N10sive
Posts: 648
Joined: Thu May 05, 2016 6:22 pm

Re: Trip Cancelled-No Trip Insurance

Post by N10sive » Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:15 pm

seawolf21 wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:39 pm
ResearchMed wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:31 pm
seawolf21 wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:19 pm
Rainier wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:44 pm
Silk McCue wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:09 pm
If the provider cancelled the trip they have no right to your money and owe you a refund as they did not deliver what was promised.

Cheers
Not if they're bankrupt and don't have the money. At that point you're just a creditor and will likely get nothing.
If this was paid by credit card, the card member is not going to be a creditor a bankruptcy proceeding. The bank where the merchant’s credit card account is held (Acquiring bank) will becomes liable for valid chargebacks if merchant is insolvent. That bank becomes a creditor in a bankruptcy proceeding not the card member.
N10sive wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:51 pm
dpm321 wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:34 am


Not sure exactly what you mean here, but the current situation certainly fits the definition of force majuere. I think the best you can hope for is a future credit. The company probably spent your money awhile ago.
It was only explained as “if you cannot arrive for your pickup on time due to weather, airline delay etc or force majuere.....”. Meaning it only related to travel not their cancellation of the trip. We were by all means going to try to make it but then they cancelled.

Can you file a credit card dispute, it’s almost been a year.....
Under Visa and MasterCard rules, cardmember have 120 days from the expected service/merchandise delivery date to file a chargeback for a “merchandise/services not delivered” dispute provided the original card transaction is not more than 540 days old from dispute submission date.

I don’t believe AMEX has a time limit. Don’t know about Discover. If your card issuer don’t know about this rule they need to escalate internally.
I did not know about this almost "lack of time limit".
We typically use Amex for anything remotely sketchy, although in the past, cruises weren't in that category.

But for some reason, I had thought there was a deadline, at least for completed transactions (goods/services received), and that was more like 60 (or 90?) days.
Why would the "beyond expected date" deadline be so much later?

Thanks.
And yes, we'll double check :wink:

RM
Because there are many prepaid transactions especially with travel.

The 60 day language you see on credit cards are required to be printed due to federal regulations and are more focused on billing errors.

If using a visa google “VISA core rules.” There should be a PDF hosted on VISA website. For MasterCard, google “MasterCard chargeback guide”. Be sure to select the pdf hosted on MasterCard website.
Thanks for the info! I have found the section stating this. I still have a few days and waiting on a firm cancellation. I think I’ll have to wait at least another couple weeks until I start that process.

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baconavocado
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Re: Trip Cancelled-No Trip Insurance

Post by baconavocado » Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:31 pm

TravelGeek wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:37 am
I personally didn’t lose any money on airline tickets or other travel yet. Tickets were either refunded without fees (Delta) or converted to wallet credit for a non-refundable (Alaska Basic economy!) ticket I chose not to fly. Hopefully I will be able to use the credit for another trip by the end of the year before it expires. Even if that were not to happen, I have “lost” a lot more in the market... and many others who have lost their jobs or companies are in a much worse situation.
My wife also got a credit for an Alaska Air flight cancellation. All she has to do is pay a $150 change fee for her $210 ticket.

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GerryL
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Re: Trip Cancelled-No Trip Insurance

Post by GerryL » Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:44 pm

OP,
Is the travel company still advertising and booking future travel?

Topic Author
N10sive
Posts: 648
Joined: Thu May 05, 2016 6:22 pm

Re: Trip Cancelled-No Trip Insurance

Post by N10sive » Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:23 pm

GerryL wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:44 pm
OP,
Is the travel company still advertising and booking future travel?
It isn’t a travel company but a guide/touring company. They operate seasonally as far as I know.

Most likely they are looking for people to reserve for next year or in a month. I paid for this trip in May of last year.

TravelGeek
Posts: 3587
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 3:23 pm

Re: Trip Cancelled-No Trip Insurance

Post by TravelGeek » Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:36 pm

baconavocado wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:31 pm

My wife also got a credit for an Alaska Air flight cancellation. All she has to do is pay a $150 change fee for her $210 ticket.
So her ticket is for travel outside the current fee waiver window?

https://www.alaskaair.com/content/advis ... lFees#flex

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Ramjet
Posts: 327
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Re: Trip Cancelled-No Trip Insurance

Post by Ramjet » Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:49 pm

Did you pay the entire amount on a credit card?

Call the credit card company and see if trip cancellation insurance is an automatic benefit of the card

User avatar
baconavocado
Posts: 441
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Re: Trip Cancelled-No Trip Insurance

Post by baconavocado » Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:16 pm

TravelGeek wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:36 pm
baconavocado wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:31 pm

My wife also got a credit for an Alaska Air flight cancellation. All she has to do is pay a $150 change fee for her $210 ticket.
So her ticket is for travel outside the current fee waiver window?

https://www.alaskaair.com/content/advis ... lFees#flex
Yes, the trip started on March 4, five days before the fee waiver started.

Topic Author
N10sive
Posts: 648
Joined: Thu May 05, 2016 6:22 pm

Re: Trip Cancelled-No Trip Insurance

Post by N10sive » Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:58 pm

So would say a guided kayak tour or guided Bike tour or guided ski tour etc be considered a “service”?

Topic Author
N10sive
Posts: 648
Joined: Thu May 05, 2016 6:22 pm

Re: Trip Cancelled-No Trip Insurance

Post by N10sive » Fri May 22, 2020 7:21 pm

Bumping this again as terms were offered as half credit for next year while having to make up the rest making the trip even more expensive.

I am having a hard time knowing If force majeure is a good enough stand for the company? If I file a cc chargeback for services not rendered will the cc not care about this?

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