$5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

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bogler52
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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by bogler52 » Mon May 11, 2020 3:14 pm

mhalley wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 3:04 pm
I got a letter regarding a class action lawsuit regarding TLs using oil. I tossed it as mine doesn't seem affected, but perhaps bringing it up will help your negotiations. I am usually not a fan of these as the lawyers get $$$$$ and you get $, but might be worth looking into:
https://margarianlaw.com/acura-engine-d ... stigation/
Looks like they extended the wauranty to 8 years 125k miles.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Acura/comments ... nsumption/
O, here is a copy of the lawsuit paper:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Acura/comments ... n_lawsuit/
Thank you very much!

mhalley
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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by mhalley » Mon May 11, 2020 3:17 pm

I was planning on keeping my '12 TL till 2022 at which point I was planning on getting an EV, (hopefully more viable options than just the T word by then) but this discussion is making me think of trading it in before something goes wrong with mine. RESIST, must RESIST. :oops: As I said before, i think this has been the best car I have ever owned, hope mine doesn't go south in the next 2 years.

Topic Author
bogler52
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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by bogler52 » Mon May 11, 2020 3:21 pm

mhalley wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 3:17 pm
I was planning on keeping my '12 Tl till 22 at which point I am thinking of getting an EV, but this discussion is making me think of trading it in before something goes wrong with mine. RESIST, must RESIST. :oops:
If you've owned the car since new or have had no problems with it I would probably keep it (what's 18 more months?). The cost to repair vs. replace is likely significant, and you never know what you're going to get. My last car was an '07 Accord I bought at 3 years old at 28k miles. No issues at all except wear parts. and I drove that thing hard (learned to drive in it, taught my friends to drive in it, road trips, moving, etc...) I wanted to get into something nicer and didn't want to spend $3k to fix it when it was only worth around $1k. The TL should have been exactly what I wanted (t was), except for this unusual and catastrophic failure.

Probably worth keeping your TL a little longer unless the cost to upgrade is worth it.

Good luck!

mhalley
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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by mhalley » Mon May 11, 2020 3:29 pm

This was bought new, and was quite an extravagance for me. I had always bought new but "regular" cars and kept them for many years before buying this luxury brand. I got the SHO AWD as I needed to get to work no matter the weather. I just went over 64k miles on it. I think the car I traded in for it was a PT Cruiser lol. First luxury car purchase, as a pre retirement splurge. I just went out to double check that it still has some oil in it so there is that.

hookemhorns
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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by hookemhorns » Mon May 11, 2020 4:01 pm

If you are in/near a large city call an independent shop that specializes in replacing engines. These places work on dozens of vehicles per day and have engine replacement down to a science. They should be able to quote you the total cost to replace the engine on the phone. $5-7k is high especially if they can use a remanufactured engine. Unless Honda throws you a bone, this is likely your best option.

A cracked cylinder is almost always a manufacturing defect, so I wouldn't expect help from any of the dealers since they could not have reasonably prevented or detected it.

inbox788
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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by inbox788 » Mon May 11, 2020 4:19 pm

mhalley wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 3:17 pm
I was planning on keeping my '12 TL till 2022 at which point I was planning on getting an EV, (hopefully more viable options than just the T word by then) but this discussion is making me think of trading it in before something goes wrong with mine. RESIST, must RESIST. :oops: As I said before, i think this has been the best car I have ever owned, hope mine doesn't go south in the next 2 years.
What would you trade it for?

If you're trading it in now for a Tesla, it might not be a good time. They're production limited and backlogged, so pricing isn't going to be any good and you'll have to wait. If you've got a low cost switch, then it might make sense. Whether the market price is low or high, as long as you get market prices for both your sale and purchase, you wind up with a fair deal and you eliminate and pass on a liability.

illumination
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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by illumination » Mon May 11, 2020 4:30 pm

Get a used engine from a salvage yard, there's independent shops that can do all of this for way less than $7k. I could see it being closer to $3k.

I just did a brief search, I don't see a cracked block being a widespread issue on the Acura TL. Is there like a TSB or something? At 80k miles, Acura should eat that if that's really a thing.

It seems like Toyota/Lexus is the only "good" Japanese brand left that still takes quality seriously, and they aren't as good either.

alfaspider
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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by alfaspider » Mon May 11, 2020 4:31 pm

carolinaman wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 7:02 am
I am sorry about your situation. I have 2 thoughts:
1- I have always heard that replacing one part of the power train in an older car may cause failure of other part(s), i.e. transmission or read end. The reason is that the power train has aged together and weakened to some extent. Putting a new strong engine in may put more pressure on other parts and cause failure. I am not a mechanic so this may not be true. But if it is, it suggests not replacing engine.

Nonsense if we are talking about a modern car. A modern 80k mile engine that has been maintained should be making almost identical power to new. Gone are the days of gummed up carburetors and piston rings that are worn out at 60k miles. Now, it IS often the case that many components reach the end of their useful life on a similar timescale. That may be the reason why people have the impression. For example, your transmission didn't die because you put in a new motor, it's because your car has 200k miles and both the motor and transmission are good for about that long. The car in question is new enough that that concern is not quite as acute.

As for OP, if you can browbeat Acrua into a new motor, that's obviously the way to go. Otherwise, I think you can probably get the job done a lot cheaper. If you are willing to take a bit of a chance, used motors are less than $1,000. Example:

https://www.jdmorlandoinc.com/product/0 ... ine-j35z6/

I bet you can find an independent shop to swap motors for a grand or two.

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bogler52
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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by bogler52 » Mon May 11, 2020 6:52 pm

illumination wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 4:30 pm
Get a used engine from a salvage yard, there's independent shops that can do all of this for way less than $7k. I could see it being closer to $3k.

I just did a brief search, I don't see a cracked block being a widespread issue on the Acura TL. Is there like a TSB or something? At 80k miles, Acura should eat that if that's really a thing.

It seems like Toyota/Lexus is the only "good" Japanese brand left that still takes quality seriously, and they aren't as good either.
A cracked block isn't common from what I've found, but there is this service bulletin regarding the engine block: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2013/ ... 4-9222.pdf

It's VIN specific and my VIN is included in that range.

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bogler52
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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by bogler52 » Mon May 11, 2020 6:54 pm

alfaspider wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 4:31 pm
carolinaman wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 7:02 am
I am sorry about your situation. I have 2 thoughts:
1- I have always heard that replacing one part of the power train in an older car may cause failure of other part(s), i.e. transmission or read end. The reason is that the power train has aged together and weakened to some extent. Putting a new strong engine in may put more pressure on other parts and cause failure. I am not a mechanic so this may not be true. But if it is, it suggests not replacing engine.

Nonsense if we are talking about a modern car. A modern 80k mile engine that has been maintained should be making almost identical power to new. Gone are the days of gummed up carburetors and piston rings that are worn out at 60k miles. Now, it IS often the case that many components reach the end of their useful life on a similar timescale. That may be the reason why people have the impression. For example, your transmission didn't die because you put in a new motor, it's because your car has 200k miles and both the motor and transmission are good for about that long. The car in question is new enough that that concern is not quite as acute.

As for OP, if you can browbeat Acrua into a new motor, that's obviously the way to go. Otherwise, I think you can probably get the job done a lot cheaper. If you are willing to take a bit of a chance, used motors are less than $1,000. Example:

https://www.jdmorlandoinc.com/product/0 ... ine-j35z6/

I bet you can find an independent shop to swap motors for a grand or two.
Thanks for sharing the link to this site. Unfortunately I need the 3.7 liter engine. I'll reach out to this company and see if they may have my engine available if all else fails.

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bogler52
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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by bogler52 » Mon May 11, 2020 7:20 pm

Hi All,

Your input is very helpful. I'm wondering what the Bogleheads methodology is for car buying? While I'm still dealing with my Acura, I'd like to understand if there's a rule of thumb (I've heard don't spend more than 10% of your annual income on a vehicle per year) that many of you follow.

If there is a wiki article or general principals I'd like to read / hear them. Also interested in thoughts on leasing.

Thank you,
bogler52

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Watty
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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by Watty » Mon May 11, 2020 10:03 pm

bogler52 wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 7:20 pm
I'm wondering what the Bogleheads methodology is for car buying?
My general strategy is to buy relatively modest new cars that have a reputation for reliability and not depreciating quickly then I will sell then when they are roughly ten years old or have 120k miles even if I am not having any issues with them. These are typically Toyota's or Honda's and mainstream models like Corollas, Camrys, Civics, or Accords but I am open to other models. I don't buy real high trim levels but not necessarily the base model. Usually I can make it ten years and not have to pay for much if any non-routine maintenance.

Part of what makes this work is that a ten year old Toyota or Honda will sell for a surprising amount if it is well maintained, never wrecked, and a one owner car. To some people that is sort of the holy grail of used cars and some people are willing to pay top dollar for it. For example I was able to sell a nine year old Camry with 130k miles for about a third of what it cost when new.

I also had a Honda Fit that had been in three fender benders in eight years (strangers 2, wife 1, :annoyed ) that I did not get a real high resale on because I traded it in because I did not feel comfortable with selling it myself when it had that sort of history.

One thing that is important to remember is that when you look up the price of used car that is an average. Half of the cars will sell for more.

When my current car gets to be about 9 years old I will start watching the new car market and I will wait until there are good deals to buy my next car. I am OK if it takes until the car is 11 years old to find a good deal. That gives me around three years to wait for a good deal. I figure that getting a good deal can save me at least a thousand dollars. I have also had to buy a replacement car in a hurry and in addition to being stressful that is also not a good way to get a good deal.

This is not the cheapest way to own a car but it allows me to have a reliable car with relatively current safety features and it is within my means.

For example about two years ago I was able to buy a new 2018 Corolla LE for a bit over $17K out the door price which was probably a really good price.

My plan is to sell it in ten years (120 months). I think I will be able to sell it for about $5,000 then because used Corollas are so popular. That means that it will have cost me $12,000 in depreciation over 120 months or $100 a month in depreciation and hopefully I will not have much non-routine maintenance since it should be pretty reliable.

With any car you will also have operating costs for gas, tires, insurance, and routine maintenance but that will not vary a lot with the type of car you own.

If I kept it another year it would still be depreciating some each year and I would be might have some non-routine maintenance. If it depreciated $600 that would be $50 a month so it could easily cost the same $100 a month in depreciation and non-routine maintenance.

As how to actually buy it here is a link to a post I did where I outlined my online car buying process.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=239526&p=3746230

There is also a years long epic car buying thread.

viewtopic.php?t=124638
Last edited by Watty on Mon May 11, 2020 10:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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willthrill81
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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by willthrill81 » Mon May 11, 2020 10:07 pm

bogler52 wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 3:41 pm
oldfort wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 12:38 pm
I would never pay $7k to fix a vehicle worth $13k or less. If it's a manufacturing defect, Acura should fix this. If they won't, treat the vehicle like it's been totaled.
Agreed. That is what I'm thinking if I can't get the car fixed. There will be additional maintenance in the future and I don't know what else could go wrong with a transplanted engine.
Would you pay $7k for a car just like yours but with a new engine? Maybe that clarifies the decision you're making.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by BH+ » Mon May 11, 2020 10:31 pm

The 15k that you have paid for the car (and maintenance) so far is a sunk cost; without a running engine, the car is probably worth less than 1k (just guessing, I don't know). If you fix the engine for 5k to 7k, and keep the car for 10 years, it will cost you 500 to 700 dollars extra per year in depreciation, notwithstanding other problems that could arise. It likely beats leasing.

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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by surfstar » Mon May 11, 2020 11:09 pm

bogler52 wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 6:52 pm
illumination wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 4:30 pm
Get a used engine from a salvage yard, there's independent shops that can do all of this for way less than $7k. I could see it being closer to $3k.

I just did a brief search, I don't see a cracked block being a widespread issue on the Acura TL. Is there like a TSB or something? At 80k miles, Acura should eat that if that's really a thing.

It seems like Toyota/Lexus is the only "good" Japanese brand left that still takes quality seriously, and they aren't as good either.
A cracked block isn't common from what I've found, but there is this service bulletin regarding the engine block: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2013/ ... 4-9222.pdf

It's VIN specific and my VIN is included in that range.
Hmm, any chance there's a liability to the Acura dealer that did the pre-purchase inspection and did not include a heads-up that this car falls under this TSB issue?
If you haven't brought that up to Acura corporate, hit them hard on it. Say that a large issue like that should have been flagged as part of the PPI, no matter who was selling the vehicle. "Acura" signed off on the vehicle being cleared for sale. Now its time to squeeze them as much as you can. Maybe you'll get them to cover 50% - pretty common goodwill gesture.

inbox788
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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by inbox788 » Mon May 11, 2020 11:22 pm

ValuationsMatter wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 1:32 pm
Simple:

What is the value of the car without engine? i.e. sell car now as-is
What is the value of the car with engine? i.e. fix car and sell at market value

If the difference between the two is more than the cost of repairs, then fix. If not, then sell as-is.

The only caveat to the above advice is emotional value to you.
I suspect the emotional value is negative at this time, so not a factor.

OP, salvage what you can and move on.

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msi
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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by msi » Tue May 12, 2020 7:33 am

Jags4186 wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 2:31 pm
randomguy wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 1:18 pm
Jags4186 wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 7:12 am
harrychan wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 5:50 pm
sd323232 wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 2:37 pm
dang, acura that needs a new engine, i dont think i will live to the day i will see something like that, looks like i will cross acuras from my buying list, that will leave only toyota on there
I dunno why people like honda / acura so much. I know 3 people who had problems with various honda / acura including engines and transmission issues on 5 year +/- cars.

I know people who have had problems with Toyotas, Mazdas, and the Subaru my wife drives hasn’t been that great either. No manufacturer is perfect.

You hear about problems with Honda because they sell so many cars. They might not be no. 1 for reliability but they are way up there. I think all of their cars look and drive better than the equivalent Toyota models FWIW (well at least Civic and Accord vs Corolla and Camry. All of which I cross shopped).
It might be more accurate to say Honda WAS way up there. Those 90s honda's were as good as anything out there. The evidence is the last 5-10 years of products are not remotely up to that standard. They aren't horrible but more of a just above average rank. And the average car these days is pretty darn solid.
Consumer Reports gives Honda a “72” score in reliability. Toyota, which one would assume reading around here are indestructible, is given a score of “73”. Audi, a bad word around here, is given “77”. Porsche, which you assume requires putting a lien on your firstborn before accepting delivery, is number 1 at “86”. Subaru, ranked #3 overall, has notorious oil burning issues. My wife’s car has it. My in-laws vehicle has it, everyone I know who owns a Subaru has oil problems.
In 2020, Honda has a 55 for reliability, and they're ranked 12/30. Acura has a 29 and is ranked 28/30.

The 72 you're referring to is the "Overall Score," which takes into account the CR road test results, owner satisfaction, etc. I've driven Honda/Acura for years, but it is true that they have fallen quite a bit in reliability.

alfaspider
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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by alfaspider » Tue May 12, 2020 1:05 pm

bogler52 wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 6:54 pm
alfaspider wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 4:31 pm
carolinaman wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 7:02 am
I am sorry about your situation. I have 2 thoughts:
1- I have always heard that replacing one part of the power train in an older car may cause failure of other part(s), i.e. transmission or read end. The reason is that the power train has aged together and weakened to some extent. Putting a new strong engine in may put more pressure on other parts and cause failure. I am not a mechanic so this may not be true. But if it is, it suggests not replacing engine.

Nonsense if we are talking about a modern car. A modern 80k mile engine that has been maintained should be making almost identical power to new. Gone are the days of gummed up carburetors and piston rings that are worn out at 60k miles. Now, it IS often the case that many components reach the end of their useful life on a similar timescale. That may be the reason why people have the impression. For example, your transmission didn't die because you put in a new motor, it's because your car has 200k miles and both the motor and transmission are good for about that long. The car in question is new enough that that concern is not quite as acute.

As for OP, if you can browbeat Acrua into a new motor, that's obviously the way to go. Otherwise, I think you can probably get the job done a lot cheaper. If you are willing to take a bit of a chance, used motors are less than $1,000. Example:

https://www.jdmorlandoinc.com/product/0 ... ine-j35z6/

I bet you can find an independent shop to swap motors for a grand or two.
Thanks for sharing the link to this site. Unfortunately I need the 3.7 liter engine. I'll reach out to this company and see if they may have my engine available if all else fails.
The going rate on the 3.7 seems to be a bit more $1,500-2,000. But you'd want to look locally for engines.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2010-2014-ACUR ... Sw-qld~W1b

hayhayday
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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by hayhayday » Tue May 12, 2020 1:21 pm

A used engine with 6m warranty runs around 1250-1500 + labor. Would likely end up around 3k , wholesale value of vehicle is around 7-8k so I wouldnt spend the same amount for a reman engine if you cant get any goodwill discount. Even if you sell it immediately after dropping a used engine in you likely still end up ahead of scraping it or selling it non running.

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H-Dog
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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by H-Dog » Tue May 12, 2020 11:00 pm

I offer $2000 cash from one Boglehead to another no questions asked..

I’m currently rebuilding a transmission so this is kind of hobby of mine.

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bogler52
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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by bogler52 » Thu May 14, 2020 3:30 am

H-Dog wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 11:00 pm
I offer $2000 cash from one Boglehead to another no questions asked..

I’m currently rebuilding a transmission so this is kind of hobby of mine.
Hi H-Dog,

I just send you a PM.

Thanks,
Bogler52

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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by Helo80 » Mon May 18, 2020 10:28 am

jabberwockOG wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 9:25 pm
If you bought the car used at an Acura/honda dealer you should send an email to both the owner and general manager of the dealership. Assuming you did your part and maintained the car per the book (and it sounds like you did), politely but firmly let them know via email that you expect the car you bought from them should not need a new engine within 8 months of purchase.

Good luck with that. Whether you bought from a branded Honda/Acura dealership, branded other dealership, or a BHPH lot, odds are very high that OP signed a disclosure statement that the car was being sold "AS-IS", as nearly all used cars are. Used cars within warranty will have some sort of statement of the warranty still in effect.

While yes, most cars in the last decade should do 100k+ miles without any problems, these are still complex machines and stuff does go wrong.

Honda and Toyota are not perfect. Honda builds some of the best engines out there, but when they have problems with the powertrain, sometimes Honda is less than forthcoming that there is an issue (maybe it's their legal side doing the talking).

jabberwockOG wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 9:25 pm
Request that they repair the engine on the car they sold you for $13k so that you have a running reliable car or you will file complaints with local and federal government agencies, BBB, as well as notifying local print and TV media that they are not dealing with you in good faith or standing behind their product, etc.

If you do that, I can 100% guarantee you that the dealership will ignore you, and would even less likely to throw you a bone.

You can have your state AG's private cell phone number and there won't be much he/she can do.

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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by Helo80 » Mon May 18, 2020 10:30 am

msi wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 7:33 am
The 72 you're referring to is the "Overall Score," which takes into account the CR road test results, owner satisfaction, etc. I've driven Honda/Acura for years, but it is true that they have fallen quite a bit in reliability.


Both Infiniti and Honda are brands that I would have bought 10-15 years ago, but are now brands that I would steer clear of.

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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by Helo80 » Mon May 18, 2020 10:36 am

Watty wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 10:03 pm
bogler52 wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 7:20 pm
I'm wondering what the Bogleheads methodology is for car buying?
My general strategy is to buy relatively modest new cars that have a reputation for reliability and not depreciating quickly then I will sell then when they are roughly ten years old or have 120k miles even if I am not having any issues with them. These are typically Toyota's or Honda's and mainstream models like Corollas, Camrys, Civics, or Accords but I am open to other models.

To me, that is probably the best strategy as you'll be getting a newer vehicle with improved safety and crash test abilities, upgraded features, new parts, new warranty, and a new ride.

Many here like to take their cars until the wheels fall off because that's the financially prudent thing to do..... but, I think it's being penny wise and pound foolish when a lot on here have very solid nest eggs (at least when I look at basic numbers and see Vanguard accounts well into the 6 or 7 digits). I think that there is a lot of value in new car safety technology to protect you and your family, as well as, just enjoying life and the car you drive.

When you start hitting the 150k+ miles range, the chances of a catastrophic failure only go up. A new transmission or engine is generally not worth it to keep the car going. A clean and running car will always have equity in it.... Unfortunately, to use OP as an example, IDK what equity is left in a vehicle of that age that needs a new engine... Invariably, somebody will likely want it if they know where/how to secure a working engine and can do the work themselves or their Uncle Rico can do it.

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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by bampf » Mon May 18, 2020 10:38 am

bogler52 wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 3:43 pm
02nz wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 12:51 pm
Teague wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 12:30 pm
The purchase price is irrelevant at this point.
Yes, irrelevant to the question of what to do with the car. But taking a car loan at 4% really means OP took a loan at 4% to invest, probably back when it seemed markets would only ever go up. And that was a bad idea. Pay it off ASAP even if keeping the car.
Would you always buy a car in cash? What what % interest would you think it's worth to take a loan out?
Yes, I only buy cars with cash. I can think of no reason short of a catastrophic shortage of funds and a dire need for a vehicle that would cause me to take out a loan on an asset like a car.

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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by Helo80 » Mon May 18, 2020 10:42 am

mhalley wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 3:17 pm
I was planning on keeping my '12 TL till 2022 at which point I was planning on getting an EV, (hopefully more viable options than just the T word by then) but this discussion is making me think of trading it in before something goes wrong with mine. RESIST, must RESIST. :oops: As I said before, i think this has been the best car I have ever owned, hope mine doesn't go south in the next 2 years.


I would encourage you to read my posts above.

I get it that cars cost a lot of money and people cycling through cars for their own enjoyment or to keep up with their neighbors can be very detrimental for a secure retirement and building long-term wealth, but, I don't think a lot of the financial car editorial wisdom applies to BHs.

If people here are maxing out their 401k/IRA and devoting more money to taxable brokerage investments.... I mean, at some point enough is enough and it's not like car buying is keeping driving what you have or buying a $100k 7-series that's going to lost $30k to depreciation in half an hour of ownership.

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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by Outer Marker » Mon May 18, 2020 10:54 am

Would be interested to hear from the OP if he's had any success in wrangling a repair out of Acura to fix the defect?

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boomer
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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by boomer » Mon May 18, 2020 11:20 am

I didn't read all the responses, but here are a couple ideas.

If you haven't been able to get Acura to cover the repair, you could try posting your story and a request for action on their Twitter feed. I haven't tried this, but have heard of others doing this. Companies don't like bad publicity, so if you haven't had a good response through the normal channels no harm trying it!

Also, I used to work at a credit union, and we had people come in that needed a huge repair on their vehicle, and they didn't have money to fix it. We would refinance the vehicle and wrap in the funds to repair it. They may be willing to do this at your current rate, or possibly even a lower rate, if interest rates have gone down, to keep the loan from going bad. In the current market, there are probably plenty of people that can't make their payments, so there is probably a concerted effort going on to keep auto loans from going bad. It might be less painful to refinance if you can do it at a decent rate, rather than have to pay the money in cash.

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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by jabberwockOG » Mon May 18, 2020 4:44 pm

Helo80 wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 10:28 am
-----------------------
Request that they repair the engine on the car they sold you for $13k so that you have a running reliable car or you will file complaints with local and federal government agencies, BBB, as well as notifying local print and TV media that they are not dealing with you in good faith or standing behind their product, etc.
------------------------
If you do that, I can 100% guarantee you that the dealership will ignore you, and would even less likely to throw you a bone.

You can have your state AG's private cell phone number and there won't be much he/she can do.
Actually our daughter used this tactic with a Subaru dealer in the last 30 days. The engine on her 2009 Forester seized up at 110k miles even though it had been getting regular documented oil changes. She had purchased the car used with 90k miles on it from Subaru dealer about 10 months ago. Her letter to the dealership owner/manager threatening to go to "war" unless they repaired her engine (needed $5-6k repairs) resulted in the dealership agreeing to pay all costs for complete engine rebuild.

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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by Helo80 » Mon May 18, 2020 7:18 pm

jabberwockOG wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 4:44 pm
Helo80 wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 10:28 am
-----------------------
Request that they repair the engine on the car they sold you for $13k so that you have a running reliable car or you will file complaints with local and federal government agencies, BBB, as well as notifying local print and TV media that they are not dealing with you in good faith or standing behind their product, etc.
------------------------
If you do that, I can 100% guarantee you that the dealership will ignore you, and would even less likely to throw you a bone.

You can have your state AG's private cell phone number and there won't be much he/she can do.
Actually our daughter used this tactic with a Subaru dealer in the last 30 days. The engine on her 2009 Forester seized up at 110k miles even though it had been getting regular documented oil changes. She had purchased the car used with 90k miles on it from Subaru dealer about 10 months ago. Her letter to the dealership owner/manager threatening to go to "war" unless they repaired her engine (needed $5-6k repairs) resulted in the dealership agreeing to pay all costs for complete engine rebuild.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad it worked out for her in the long run. Though, Subs are known to burn oil.... I honestly do not know if her Forester is one of the engines affected. Also, please be aware that the dealership did it 100% out of goodwill. Overall, the sale to your daughter was likely a net loss. If I were in her shoes, I sure as hell would never buy a Subaru again.

I will say that there is about a 99% chance the finance manager at that dealership had her sign a document acknowledging that she was buying the car "AS-IS". While I certainly would not expect a Sub's engine to go out at 110k miles, we have no idea what the previous owner did or didn't do.

Just be forewarned before you go scorched Earth on the dealership....


EDIT: Though while having dinner, I have heard reports from people in situations such as yourself that did regular oil maintenance.... had the engine go tits up from lack of oil.... end up having their dealership contact corporate and get the engine and/or labor comped as goodwill. Did the dealer allude to anything like this?

Either way... your daughter got VERY lucky.

1. Used cars sold at dealerships are sold "AS-IS" or a clear mention of what factory warranty remains. Some auto groups have their own internal warranty for a certain number of days/miles. E.g. CarMax.
2. To my knowledge, no state has a buyer's remorse or "cool-down" period after a vehicle is purchased. Pretty much once you drive the vehicle off the lot, it's yours and with all of the problems any used car might bring.
3. Your situation is a gentle reminder that we should all be regularly checking our oil.

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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by SquirrelEater » Mon May 18, 2020 9:54 pm

You got bad and badder paths here.
The bad path is replacing the engine and just keeping the car. It might be a great car afterwards. Likely will be.

Badder paths: If you ditch the car without fixing you have limited buyers, limited price, and still on the hook for the loan. Scrap yards offer about $250-350 for cars around here. You still got to buy another car if such is required to live & work.
If you sell it after replacing the engine you are likely setting the next guy up very well while still costing you dearly.
Would you buy a clean looking 2013 Acura TL with 80k miles, brand new motor, for $7k? Sounds like a decent deal. Would you buy that? You about to buy that! :sharebeer

Life ain’t fair. Sometimes that is a good thing. Sometimes that is a bad thing.

A different quote from other mechanics is the way I would absolutely go. Around here transmissions are always $3k+ and “new/rebuilt.” Yet there is a shop here that replaces what part(s) is actually gone bad and does it for $600 instead. True story for my Mazda 626, 2000 C3500 truck, & number of individuals I have referred. Find that kind of shop. The ROI on the time & frustration is huge. Find the right shop.


Story time:
There was a man at a supplier I frequent, now passed, a red neck millionaire that has owned/operated numerous businesses in his lifetime, that would say: only a rich man can afford used.
He bought new and kept it... and kept it. And kept it. And fixed it. Fixed it again. And never once decided he was not going to fix this ugly red ford flatbed truck and go buy a different truck instead.

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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by jabberwockOG » Mon May 18, 2020 10:24 pm

Helo80 wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 7:18 pm
jabberwockOG wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 4:44 pm
Helo80 wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 10:28 am
-----------------------
Request that they repair the engine on the car they sold you for $13k so that you have a running reliable car or you will file complaints with local and federal government agencies, BBB, as well as notifying local print and TV media that they are not dealing with you in good faith or standing behind their product, etc.
------------------------
If you do that, I can 100% guarantee you that the dealership will ignore you, and would even less likely to throw you a bone.

You can have your state AG's private cell phone number and there won't be much he/she can do.
Actually our daughter used this tactic with a Subaru dealer in the last 30 days. The engine on her 2009 Forester seized up at 110k miles even though it had been getting regular documented oil changes. She had purchased the car used with 90k miles on it from Subaru dealer about 10 months ago. Her letter to the dealership owner/manager threatening to go to "war" unless they repaired her engine (needed $5-6k repairs) resulted in the dealership agreeing to pay all costs for complete engine rebuild.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad it worked out for her in the long run. Though, Subs are known to burn oil.... I honestly do not know if her Forester is one of the engines affected. Also, please be aware that the dealership did it 100% out of goodwill. Overall, the sale to your daughter was likely a net loss. If I were in her shoes, I sure as hell would never buy a Subaru again.

I will say that there is about a 99% chance the finance manager at that dealership had her sign a document acknowledging that she was buying the car "AS-IS". While I certainly would not expect a Sub's engine to go out at 110k miles, we have no idea what the previous owner did or didn't do.

Just be forewarned before you go scorched Earth on the dealership....


EDIT: Though while having dinner, I have heard reports from people in situations such as yourself that did regular oil maintenance.... had the engine go tits up from lack of oil.... end up having their dealership contact corporate and get the engine and/or labor comped as goodwill. Did the dealer allude to anything like this?

Either way... your daughter got VERY lucky.

1. Used cars sold at dealerships are sold "AS-IS" or a clear mention of what factory warranty remains. Some auto groups have their own internal warranty for a certain number of days/miles. E.g. CarMax.
2. To my knowledge, no state has a buyer's remorse or "cool-down" period after a vehicle is purchased. Pretty much once you drive the vehicle off the lot, it's yours and with all of the problems any used car might bring.
3. Your situation is a gentle reminder that we should all be regularly checking our oil.
With car dealers no one gets lucky. They are very skilled at making sure almost every transaction goes their way and blowing off the average timid or gullible customer. Successfully negotiating a purchase or making a defect claim at a car dealer requires that you make your own "luck" by understanding how the business works in detail, and by knowing how to identify any leverage you might have, and how to most effectively use it. It's polite, professional hardball plain and simple. Car dealer level hardball for relatively small sums typically involved is pretty simple compared to serious high dollar transactions ($>1M) where the talent and strategy utilized is of a different caliber.

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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by Helo80 » Tue May 19, 2020 7:46 am

jabberwockOG wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 10:24 pm
With car dealers no one gets lucky. They are very skilled at making sure almost every transaction goes their way and blowing off the average timid or gullible customer. Successfully negotiating a purchase or making a defect claim at a car dealer requires that you make your own "luck" by understanding how the business works in detail, and by knowing how to identify any leverage you might have, and how to most effectively use it. It's polite, professional hardball plain and simple. Car dealer level hardball for relatively small sums typically involved is pretty simple compared to serious high dollar transactions ($>1M) where the talent and strategy utilized is of a different caliber.


Ok, that's fine.....

My advice is to the rest of the timid and gullible BH community that you imply exists here that when you buy a used car from a branded dealership, when you go to the mean and scary Finance Manager's office that is going to sell you that rip-off extended warranty and laughs at you if you take it..... Odds are overwhelmingly high that you will sign a disclosure statement that the used vehicle you're buying is being sold, "AS-IS". If part of the factory warranty remains, you may get a sheet listing what parts remain to sign.

Odds are overwhelmingly against OP getting jack-squat from Acura. He will be lucky if he can get parts or all of the engine/labor covered and can reconsider things from there.... but, I would bet lunch with anybody here that OP originally signed a disclosure statement when he bought the car acknowledging that it was being sold "AS-IS".


I'm not being an arrogant a** by pointing this out, but rather for a financially educated audience like this, you ought to know what you are signing and you can decide if it's better to buy "new" or "used" --- buy an extended warranty or not.

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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by Helo80 » Tue May 19, 2020 7:50 am

SquirrelEater wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 9:54 pm

Story time:
There was a man at a supplier I frequent, now passed, a red neck millionaire that has owned/operated numerous businesses in his lifetime, that would say: only a rich man can afford used.
He bought new and kept it... and kept it. And kept it. And fixed it. Fixed it again. And never once decided he was not going to fix this ugly red ford flatbed truck and go buy a different truck instead.

I have a lot of reservations about buying used cars and it's stories like OPs, the previous poster I have conversed with and his daughter's Subaru.... and just observations about people in general.

I'll probably never buy a used car again unless A) it's something rare or B), it's a toy car and probably has some element of A in it.

With new, you get exactly the colors you want, optioned how you wanted it, and then can drive it for many years knowing that you did not settle.

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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by Outer Marker » Tue May 19, 2020 9:00 am

Helo80 wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 7:46 am
jabberwockOG wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 10:24 pm
With car dealers no one gets lucky. They are very skilled at making sure almost every transaction goes their way and blowing off the average timid or gullible customer. Successfully negotiating a purchase or making a defect claim at a car dealer requires that you make your own "luck" by understanding how the business works in detail, and by knowing how to identify any leverage you might have, and how to most effectively use it. It's polite, professional hardball plain and simple. Car dealer level hardball for relatively small sums typically involved is pretty simple compared to serious high dollar transactions ($>1M) where the talent and strategy utilized is of a different caliber.


Ok, that's fine.....

My advice is to the rest of the timid and gullible BH community that you imply exists here that when you buy a used car from a branded dealership, when you go to the mean and scary Finance Manager's office that is going to sell you that rip-off extended warranty and laughs at you if you take it..... Odds are overwhelmingly high that you will sign a disclosure statement that the used vehicle you're buying is being sold, "AS-IS". If part of the factory warranty remains, you may get a sheet listing what parts remain to sign.

Odds are overwhelmingly against OP getting jack-squat from Acura. He will be lucky if he can get parts or all of the engine/labor covered and can reconsider things from there.... but, I would bet lunch with anybody here that OP originally signed a disclosure statement when he bought the car acknowledging that it was being sold "AS-IS".


I'm not being an arrogant a** by pointing this out, but rather for a financially educated audience like this, you ought to know what you are signing and you can decide if it's better to buy "new" or "used" --- buy an extended warranty or not.
I would respectfully disagree. And I'm pretty sure I'd be able to recover the cost of the repairs if I was in buyer's shoes. Products generally come with an implied warranty of merchantability under Art. 2 of the Uniform Commercial Code. As I understand it, "as is" sales are prohibited in Mass. See, https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0252-warranties. Further, seller, an Acura dealership is an expert seller with unique and special knowledge of the product and this apparent known defect, which was not specifically disclosed to buyer at the time of sale. That defect manifested itself shortly after the normal factory warranty expired. The unequal bargaining positions of the parties would be relevant to the judge. (If this was a purely private sale between two innocent retail end users, the outcome might be different.) Further, Acura is in an easy position to provide a remedy because it has access to needed parts at cost, and already employs the staff needed to do the repair.

It is unfortunate that the Acura dealership did not step up early and do the right thing. Most consumers are not willing to do the leg work to effectively escalate such a dispute, and follow through with the leg work needed to prosecute the claim. My advice would be to ramp up the letters (be sure to include Acura N. America head office), social media complaints, and file a lawsuit in small claims court, which you can do pro se. Brush up on your Judge Judy viewing and have at it . . . You'd be surprised by the effect filing a lawsuit has on the company's motivation to solve the problem. You can DIY it, but Acura will need to hire counsel, respond to the complaint, and appear to defend it - knowing full well they may lose.

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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by Helo80 » Tue May 19, 2020 9:25 am

Outer Marker wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:00 am
Helo80 wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 7:46 am
jabberwockOG wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 10:24 pm
With car dealers no one gets lucky. They are very skilled at making sure almost every transaction goes their way and blowing off the average timid or gullible customer. Successfully negotiating a purchase or making a defect claim at a car dealer requires that you make your own "luck" by understanding how the business works in detail, and by knowing how to identify any leverage you might have, and how to most effectively use it. It's polite, professional hardball plain and simple. Car dealer level hardball for relatively small sums typically involved is pretty simple compared to serious high dollar transactions ($>1M) where the talent and strategy utilized is of a different caliber.


Ok, that's fine.....

My advice is to the rest of the timid and gullible BH community that you imply exists here that when you buy a used car from a branded dealership, when you go to the mean and scary Finance Manager's office that is going to sell you that rip-off extended warranty and laughs at you if you take it..... Odds are overwhelmingly high that you will sign a disclosure statement that the used vehicle you're buying is being sold, "AS-IS". If part of the factory warranty remains, you may get a sheet listing what parts remain to sign.

Odds are overwhelmingly against OP getting jack-squat from Acura. He will be lucky if he can get parts or all of the engine/labor covered and can reconsider things from there.... but, I would bet lunch with anybody here that OP originally signed a disclosure statement when he bought the car acknowledging that it was being sold "AS-IS".


I'm not being an arrogant a** by pointing this out, but rather for a financially educated audience like this, you ought to know what you are signing and you can decide if it's better to buy "new" or "used" --- buy an extended warranty or not.
I would respectfully disagree. And I'm pretty sure I'd be able to recover the cost of the repairs if I was in buyer's shoes. Products generally come with an implied warranty of merchantability under Art. 2 of the Uniform Commercial Code. As I understand it, "as is" sales are prohibited in Mass. See, https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0252-warranties. Further, seller, an Acura dealership is an expert seller with unique and special knowledge of the product and this apparent known defect, which was not specifically disclosed to buyer at the time of sale. That defect manifested itself shortly after the normal factory warranty expired. The unequal bargaining positions of the parties would be relevant to the judge. (If this was a purely private sale between two innocent retail end users, the outcome might be different.) Further, Acura is in an easy position to provide a remedy because it has access to needed parts at cost, and already employs the staff needed to do the repair.

It is unfortunate that the Acura dealership did not step up early and do the right thing. Most consumers are not willing to do the leg work to effectively escalate such a dispute, and follow through with the leg work needed to prosecute the claim. My advice would be to ramp up the letters (be sure to include Acura N. America head office), social media complaints, and file a lawsuit in small claims court, which you can do pro se. Brush up on your Judge Judy viewing and have at it . . . You'd be surprised by the effect filing a lawsuit has on the company's motivation to solve the problem. You can DIY it, but Acura will need to hire counsel, respond to the complaint, and appear to defend it - knowing full well they may lose.


https://oppositelock.kinja.com/what-if- ... 1618124525


What are your thoughts after reading this article and what I wrote?

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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Tue May 19, 2020 9:37 am

Helo80 wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 7:46 am
Odds are overwhelmingly high that you will sign a disclosure statement that the used vehicle you're buying is being sold, "AS-IS".
In Massachusetts, that is not the case:

You vehicle is eligible for mandatory repairs if the defects occur during your vehicle's term of protection. The term of protection is based on how many miles are on the odometer at the time of sale.

Less than 40,000 miles
90 days or 3,750 miles driven since purchase

40,000 – 79,999 miles
60 days or 2,500 miles driven since purchase

80,000 – 124,999 miles
30 days or 1,250 miles driven since purchase

More than 125,000 miles

No lemon law warranty


For a private party sale:

Private Party Car Sales
If you buy a car from a private seller in Massachusetts and discover that it’s defective, you may be able to return it within 30 days of purchase if you can prove that the seller knew about the defect but didn’t disclose it.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid

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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by as9 » Tue May 19, 2020 9:39 am

Jags4186 wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 2:31 pm
randomguy wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 1:18 pm
Jags4186 wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 7:12 am
harrychan wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 5:50 pm
sd323232 wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 2:37 pm
dang, acura that needs a new engine, i dont think i will live to the day i will see something like that, looks like i will cross acuras from my buying list, that will leave only toyota on there
I dunno why people like honda / acura so much. I know 3 people who had problems with various honda / acura including engines and transmission issues on 5 year +/- cars.

I know people who have had problems with Toyotas, Mazdas, and the Subaru my wife drives hasn’t been that great either. No manufacturer is perfect.

You hear about problems with Honda because they sell so many cars. They might not be no. 1 for reliability but they are way up there. I think all of their cars look and drive better than the equivalent Toyota models FWIW (well at least Civic and Accord vs Corolla and Camry. All of which I cross shopped).
It might be more accurate to say Honda WAS way up there. Those 90s honda's were as good as anything out there. The evidence is the last 5-10 years of products are not remotely up to that standard. They aren't horrible but more of a just above average rank. And the average car these days is pretty darn solid.
Consumer Reports gives Honda a “72” score in reliability. Toyota, which one would assume reading around here are indestructible, is given a score of “73”. Audi, a bad word around here, is given “77”. Porsche, which you assume requires putting a lien on your firstborn before accepting delivery, is number 1 at “86”. Subaru, ranked #3 overall, has notorious oil burning issues. My wife’s car has it. My in-laws vehicle has it, everyone I know who owns a Subaru has oil problems.
My mom got a Subaru after a lifetime of Toyota's and had so many problems she sold it back to them and bought an Audi. So far so good with the Audi.

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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by Outer Marker » Tue May 19, 2020 9:41 am

Helo80 wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:25 am
https://oppositelock.kinja.com/what-if- ... 1618124525

What are your thoughts after reading this article and what I wrote?

My thoughts are that it is completely irrelevant because it was written by a Michigan attorney and the law is different in Mass. Per the FTC: "If your purchase does not come with a written warranty, it is still covered by implied warranties unless the product is marked "as is," or the seller otherwise indicates in writing that no warranty is given. Several states, including Kansas, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Mississippi, Vermont, West Virginia, and the District of Columbia, do not permit "as is" sales."

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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by as9 » Tue May 19, 2020 9:46 am

Also, this thread (and many stories like it) is why I think leases are unfairly vilified here. It will never win on a spreadsheet, but there's a comfort that comes with rarely having problems, not having to worry about any issues that do come up, and knowing you'll never have to spend more than the monthly payment.

Helo80
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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by Helo80 » Tue May 19, 2020 9:58 am

Outer Marker wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:41 am
Helo80 wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:25 am
https://oppositelock.kinja.com/what-if- ... 1618124525

What are your thoughts after reading this article and what I wrote?

My thoughts are that it is completely irrelevant because it was written by a Michigan attorney and the law is different in Mass. Per the FTC: "If your purchase does not come with a written warranty, it is still covered by implied warranties unless the product is marked "as is," or the seller otherwise indicates in writing that no warranty is given. Several states, including Kansas, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Mississippi, Vermont, West Virginia, and the District of Columbia, do not permit "as is" sales."

I stand corrected then... though, as stated from another poster above, we're outside of said warranty period.

Good luck though OP....

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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by eye.surgeon » Tue May 19, 2020 10:20 am

jabberwockOG wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 4:44 pm
Helo80 wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 10:28 am
-----------------------
Request that they repair the engine on the car they sold you for $13k so that you have a running reliable car or you will file complaints with local and federal government agencies, BBB, as well as notifying local print and TV media that they are not dealing with you in good faith or standing behind their product, etc.
------------------------
If you do that, I can 100% guarantee you that the dealership will ignore you, and would even less likely to throw you a bone.

You can have your state AG's private cell phone number and there won't be much he/she can do.
Actually our daughter used this tactic with a Subaru dealer in the last 30 days. The engine on her 2009 Forester seized up at 110k miles even though it had been getting regular documented oil changes. She had purchased the car used with 90k miles on it from Subaru dealer about 10 months ago. Her letter to the dealership owner/manager threatening to go to "war" unless they repaired her engine (needed $5-6k repairs) resulted in the dealership agreeing to pay all costs for complete engine rebuild.
She threatened to "go to war" because her 11 year old car with 110,000 miles had an engine failure? Just how old does a car have to be and with how many miles before it becomes your responsibility?
"I would rather be certain of a good return than hopeful of a great one" | Warren Buffett

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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by jabberwockOG » Tue May 19, 2020 10:48 am

eye.surgeon wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 10:20 am
jabberwockOG wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 4:44 pm
Helo80 wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 10:28 am
-----------------------
Request that they repair the engine on the car they sold you for $13k so that you have a running reliable car or you will file complaints with local and federal government agencies, BBB, as well as notifying local print and TV media that they are not dealing with you in good faith or standing behind their product, etc.
------------------------
If you do that, I can 100% guarantee you that the dealership will ignore you, and would even less likely to throw you a bone.

You can have your state AG's private cell phone number and there won't be much he/she can do.
Actually our daughter used this tactic with a Subaru dealer in the last 30 days. The engine on her 2009 Forester seized up at 110k miles even though it had been getting regular documented oil changes. She had purchased the car used with 90k miles on it from Subaru dealer about 10 months ago. Her letter to the dealership owner/manager threatening to go to "war" unless they repaired her engine (needed $5-6k repairs) resulted in the dealership agreeing to pay all costs for complete engine rebuild.
She threatened to "go to war" because her 11 year old car with 110,000 miles had an engine failure? Just how old does a car have to be and with how many miles before it becomes your responsibility?
She purchased the car used from the dealer 9-10 months before the engine seized with 90k miles. They were asking above market for it, which she paid, because they had supposedly completely rebuilt engine. So she had a right and a legal expectation to assume she could get a car that would not need a new engine in 10 months and 20k miles.

I do agree that if she had the car for many years and it had 110k miles on it when engine bricked she would have been pretty much on her own in terms of repair cost.

Helo80
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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by Helo80 » Tue May 19, 2020 11:41 am

jabberwockOG wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 10:48 am
She purchased the car used from the dealer 9-10 months before the engine seized with 90k miles. They were asking above market for it, which she paid, because they had supposedly completely rebuilt engine. So she had a right and a legal expectation to assume she could get a car that would not need a new engine in 10 months and 20k miles.

I do agree that if she had the car for many years and it had 110k miles on it when engine bricked she would have been pretty much on her own in terms of repair cost.


Ok, I'm out. Now we're learning that there is more to the story than simply "the engine had routine maintenance and went tits up at 110k miles".

OP --- I have nothing for or against you. Since you're a BH, I hope that Acura covers partial or all of the repair. However, unless you live in one of the several states mentioned above and have this comprehensive b2b warranty on a used car.... in most of the country you'd be SOL.

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jabberwockOG
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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by jabberwockOG » Tue May 19, 2020 11:39 pm

Helo80 wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 11:41 am
jabberwockOG wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 10:48 am


Actually our daughter used this tactic with a Subaru dealer in the last 30 days. The engine on her 2009 Forester seized up at 110k miles even though it had been getting regular documented oil changes. She had purchased the car used with 90k miles on it from Subaru dealer about 10 months ago.


Ok, I'm out. Now we're learning that there is more to the story than simply "the engine had routine maintenance and went tits up at 110k miles".
"OK I'm out? Now we are learning...."?
- it always helps to actually read the post in detail. Reading comprehension is your friend.

Helo80
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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by Helo80 » Wed May 20, 2020 7:56 am

jabberwockOG wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 11:39 pm
Helo80 wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 11:41 am
jabberwockOG wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 10:48 am


Actually our daughter used this tactic with a Subaru dealer in the last 30 days. The engine on her 2009 Forester seized up at 110k miles even though it had been getting regular documented oil changes. She had purchased the car used with 90k miles on it from Subaru dealer about 10 months ago.


Ok, I'm out. Now we're learning that there is more to the story than simply "the engine had routine maintenance and went tits up at 110k miles".
"OK I'm out? Now we are learning...."?
- it always helps to actually read the post in detail. Reading comprehension is your friend.

No, I think I got it at all, and a quick glance confirmed that.... Your daughter bought a Subaru with a rebuilt engine... You did not mention that until several posts into this ordeal and then I replied with that. You withheld key information as sometimes there are warranties behind rebuilt engines (as well as when you get your car serviced for something us and there is a failure within 12 mos/12,000 miles). It's a common practice for shops to warranty their work or parts.

At some point, your daughter is going to have to accept responsibility that used car ownership can be an expensive ordeal. While thank you for sharing your story, it's apples and oranges to what OP is dealing with.

You can keep the snarky insults to yourself, as I hope that you can appreciate above that going from "I got a full engine replacement at 110k miles for free.... to..... well, it was actually a rebuilt engine that failed within 10 mos.... " and then of course my initial searching affirmed that it's likely from the series of Subaru motors that have high failure rates. Your cited post affirmed my quick summary.... :sharebeer

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here was the first article from DuckDuckGo on "subaru head gasket issue"
https://carfromjapan.com/article/indust ... t-problem/

Subaru Head Gasket Problem: When Did It Start?

Impreza (from 1999 to 2011)
Forester (from 1999 to 2010)
Legacy (from 2000 to 2009)
Outback (from 2000 to 2009)
Baja (from 2003 to 2006)

backpacker61
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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by backpacker61 » Wed May 20, 2020 8:15 am

If it were me, I would get it fixed, but at an independent shop.

FWIW, my car is about 18 years old; >240K on the OD.

Almost any repair on my vehicle is more than it is worth, but I get it done anyway, as it's typically the inexpensive route to functioning wheels.
“Now shall I walk or shall I ride? | 'Ride,' Pleasure said; | 'Walk,' Joy replied.” | | ― W.H. Davies

User avatar
jabberwockOG
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Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by jabberwockOG » Wed May 20, 2020 9:54 am

Helo80 wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 7:56 am
jabberwockOG wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 11:39 pm
Helo80 wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 11:41 am
jabberwockOG wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 10:48 am


Actually our daughter used this tactic with a Subaru dealer in the last 30 days. The engine on her 2009 Forester seized up at 110k miles even though it had been getting regular documented oil changes. She had purchased the car used with 90k miles on it from Subaru dealer about 10 months ago.


Ok, I'm out. Now we're learning that there is more to the story than simply "the engine had routine maintenance and went tits up at 110k miles".
"OK I'm out? Now we are learning...."?
- it always helps to actually read the post in detail. Reading comprehension is your friend.

No, I think I got it at all, and a quick glance confirmed that.... Your daughter bought a Subaru with a rebuilt engine... You did not mention that until several posts into this ordeal and then I replied with that. You withheld key information as sometimes there are warranties behind rebuilt engines (as well as when you get your car serviced for something us and there is a failure within 12 mos/12,000 miles). It's a common practice for shops to warranty their work or parts.

At some point, your daughter is going to have to accept responsibility that used car ownership can be an expensive ordeal. While thank you for sharing your story, it's apples and oranges to what OP is dealing with.

You can keep the snarky insults to yourself, as I hope that you can appreciate above that going from "I got a full engine replacement at 110k miles for free.... to..... well, it was actually a rebuilt engine that failed within 10 mos.... " and then of course my initial searching affirmed that it's likely from the series of Subaru motors that have high failure rates. Your cited post affirmed my quick summary.... :sharebeer

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here was the first article from DuckDuckGo on "subaru head gasket issue"
https://carfromjapan.com/article/indust ... t-problem/

Subaru Head Gasket Problem: When Did It Start?

Impreza (from 1999 to 2011)
Forester (from 1999 to 2010)
Legacy (from 2000 to 2009)
Outback (from 2000 to 2009)
Baja (from 2003 to 2006)
There was no written warranty whatsoever on her used car. It was purchased as is. Getting Subaru to rebuild the engine literally required politely but firmly threatening them with legal action as well as media and governmental involvement if they did not correct the situation. The primary point of my post was to assert that a customer simply does not have to accept being blow off by a car dealer when they make a request to repair or replace a defective vehicle but it does take a professional non emotional strategy to get reasonable results.

Apparently you don't think buying used cars is a good idea. Our last 8 car purchases (not including my grown daughter's recent Suby purchase and subsequent mess) were all used cars, most 3-4 years old at time of purchase. All of them have been 100% reliable and great values in the end. Picking the right used car and negotiating a fair market price isn't that difficult but I would not characterize it as easy by any means. It takes work, time, and patience, in short most of the time the effort put into the transaction is directly proportional to the value of the result.

In general the most expensive but the quickest and easiest way to buy a car is to buy a new car. I have advised this particular daughter to buy new next time. Buying used is not a good plan for some folks, especially those not too good on the details or patience front.

UALflyer
Posts: 618
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:42 am

Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by UALflyer » Thu May 21, 2020 7:58 am

jabberwockOG wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 9:54 am
There was no written warranty whatsoever on her used car. It was purchased as is. Getting Subaru to rebuild the engine literally required politely but firmly threatening them with legal action as well as media and governmental involvement if they did not correct the situation. The primary point of my post was to assert that a customer simply does not have to accept being blow off by a car dealer when they make a request to repair or replace a defective vehicle but it does take a professional non emotional strategy to get reasonable results.
Respectfully, from the moment that you posted your experience upthread, I knew that there had to be a lot more to the story.

Auto dealers and manufacturers get threatened with legal action multiple times a day, so those things tend to elicit a yawn on their part. An overwhelming majority of these threats don't carry much weight, and tend to be counterproductive, as there is no viable legal theory behind them. It doesn't matter how much you threaten to go to war, whatever that means, as empty threats simply don't move the needle.

In your daughter's situation, the fact that the engine was rebuilt by the dealer 10 months prior to its failure was almost certainly the key factor that caused them to approve the repair. In the absence of a service campaign by the manufacturer, if we were talking about the original engine, the repair request almost certainly would've been denied, all these threats notwithstanding.

Helo80
Posts: 1498
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:47 pm

Re: $5k - $7k to replace engine, or get something else? (loan on car)

Post by Helo80 » Thu May 21, 2020 9:42 am

jabberwockOG wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 9:54 am
There was no written warranty whatsoever on her used car. It was purchased as is. Getting Subaru to rebuild the engine literally required politely but firmly threatening them with legal action as well as media and governmental involvement if they did not correct the situation. The primary point of my post was to assert that a customer simply does not have to accept being blow off by a car dealer when they make a request to repair or replace a defective vehicle but it does take a professional non emotional strategy to get reasonable results.

Apparently you don't think buying used cars is a good idea. Our last 8 car purchases (not including my grown daughter's recent Suby purchase and subsequent mess) were all used cars, most 3-4 years old at time of purchase. All of them have been 100% reliable and great values in the end. Picking the right used car and negotiating a fair market price isn't that difficult but I would not characterize it as easy by any means. It takes work, time, and patience, in short most of the time the effort put into the transaction is directly proportional to the value of the result.

In general the most expensive but the quickest and easiest way to buy a car is to buy a new car. I have advised this particular daughter to buy new next time. Buying used is not a good plan for some folks, especially those not too good on the details or patience front.


BLUF --- I would love nothing more than for OP to come back here and say, you were right and I (Helo80) was wrong. Acura/Honda and/or dealership replaced the engine for free after I politely but firmly stood my ground.

But, used cars are sold "AS-IS".... granted, a few BHs have pointed out certain states have exceptions to the rule, but you should not buy a used car with the expectation of a comprehensive b2b warranty --- especially when the car has 70k+ miles. While most engines/transmissions should be able to do double that in 2020, you're still buying a used car, and you have no idea how the previous owner treated it. Again though, in 2020, car reliability across all of the brands is way, way up, and most powertrains should be able to handle most situations and drivers.

Five seconds on Google affirmed that the 2009 Subaru Forester was part of the head gasket issue. Also, did you mention that your daughter paid above market value for the car (don't base it on what KBB/NADA say --- those are junk)? And, she knew the engine had been rebuilt? And it was part of the head gasket issues Sub had?

For used cars --- usually the brands that attract this community are not ones that depreciate to the point where it's worth looking into as a used vehicle. For BMW, Mercedes, Maserati... and maybe even Lexus, it might be worth looking into buying an off-lease vehicle to save the depreciation.

I'm not hurt --- at all --- by our exchange, but I think I'm going to stop wasting my time commenting on cars here, because I'm starting to realize it's not worth the effort. People are very apprehensive about cars and "stealerships" here, and since I gain zero financial or personal benefit from helping y'all out, I'll let the myths and rumors continue.

(NOTE: Nobody in my family has been in the car business --- directly or indirectly --- for 15+ years. I merely enjoy reading about cars. )

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